Phoenix Rachel vs Starbrand

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
u right. But she's definitely not stronger. She was more trained than teen jean
But had Vulcan and mesmero mind raping her ass

That second part is Vulcan fanfiction though. An amped Vulcan got off a free energy manipulation attack on an unaware Rachel. There was no mental battle. In fact, as I posted in the other thread, Vulcan kept Oracle specifically to protect from Rachel's telepathy for their subsequent encounters.

https://postimg.cc/s1P11vyh

Mesmero, meh. He specifically mentioned her powers were in flux, which made her vulnerable. She'd just gotten out of a coma, and was still going through changes from her synaptic upgrades. They said telepathy in that arc, but he's a hypnotist, which has always existed in a weird place mentally. Think Universo vs Saturn Girl, or Sauron doing the googly eyes on telepaths.

Originally posted by StyleTime
Now that we know Teen Jean is Adult Jean, yeah sure, Rachel is weaker (by direct comparison to Adult Jean at least). It wasn't that way at the start though. And Marvel has adopted this power scaling approach for Jean vs Rachel it seems. Rachel could telepathically kill every abstract across the multiverse, and Jean would just get scaled to outrank her. 🙁

That second part is Vulcan fanfiction though. An amped Vulcan got off a free energy manipulation attack on an unaware Rachel. There was no mental battle. In fact, as I posted in the other thread, Vulcan kept Oracle specifically to protect from Rachel's telepathy for their subsequent encounters.

https://postimg.cc/s1P11vyh

Mesmero, meh. He specifically mentioned her powers were in flux, which made her vulnerable. She'd just gotten out of a coma, and was still going through changes from her synaptic upgrades. They said telepathy in that arc, but he's a hypnotist, which has always existed in a weird place mentally. Think Universo vs Saturn Girl, or Sauron doing the googly eyes on telepaths.

To be fair, Jean is basically the resident telepath for Marvel so no one can really touch her. That was evident before the whole ridiculous Phoenix Force retcon. She was originally Phoenix, which was her peak.

Originally posted by zopzop
Wait, what? Newbie Starbrand was taking on the Avengers. A slightly more experienced Starbrand took on a living star. Then later he held his own vs the avatars of 3 universal level abstracts.

Rachel gets curbstomped.

The entities then got thwarted directly by Nightmask who simply re-directed their power

Youre making assumptions about how powerful the avatars are based on their power source. Thats not a useful exercise. It doesnt translate to anything concrete.

Beyond that battle against avatars of unknown power levels when you weigh up what this current Starbrand has done vs Rachel in her stint as the Phoenix it just doesnt compare.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The entities then got thwarted directly by Nightmask who simply re-directed their power

Youre making assumptions about how powerful the avatars are based on their power source. Thats not a useful exercise. It doesnt translate to anything concrete.

Beyond that battle against avatars of unknown power levels when you weigh up what this current Starbrand has done vs Rachel in her stint as the Phoenix it just doesnt compare.

How doesn't it compare? I believe that Graviton was one of those Avatars that were used, and he was amped by one of those Abstract beings. Kevin also effortlessly held his own against Thor, Hyperion, and the Hulk while only being in possession of the Brand for at least 8 hours. The Starbrand is also an Infinite power that is only limited by it's users imagination.

So let's look at exactly what Rachel did again that surpasses those Avatars amplified by the Abstract beings. What did she do?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The entities then got thwarted directly by Nightmask who simply re-directed their power

Youre making assumptions about how powerful the avatars are based on their power source. Thats not a useful exercise. It doesnt translate to anything concrete.

Beyond that battle against avatars of unknown power levels when you weigh up what this current Starbrand has done vs Rachel in her stint as the Phoenix it just doesnt compare.

Originally posted by zopzop
You got to remember GS that those abstracts wanted the Starbrand dead and they weren't playing around.

How powerful an avatar is is entirely dependant on the host body. Avatars do not equal the entirety of what they're hosting and intentions do not equate to feats.

Just because these abstracts wanted Starbrand dead and empowered these random villains to achieve their means does not justify anyone making out that Starbrand was therefore holding his own against 3 Abstract level beings. Thats nonsense.

Starbrand faced off against 3 villains whose powers were enhanced by an Abstract to an unspecified degree. Outside of the battle said avatars have ZERO feats and during said battle the collateral damage was not in keeping with the power levels you are asserting these avatars had.

They did about as much damage as a typical X-men scrap lol

Starbrand raised his hand and made an entire armada turn and run. Your entire stance seems bent on invalidating feats that Starbrand completed, while saying nothing about why Rachel should defeat an infinite power.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
How powerful an avatar is is entirely dependant on the host body. Avatars do not equal the entirety of what they're hosting and intentions do not equate to feats.

Just because these abstracts wanted Starbrand dead and empowered these random villains to achieve their means does not justify anyone making out that Starbrand was therefore holding his own against 3 Abstract level beings. Thats nonsense.

Starbrand faced off against 3 villains whose powers were enhanced by an Abstract to an unspecified degree. Outside of the battle said avatars have ZERO feats and during said battle the collateral damage was not in keeping with the power levels you are asserting these avatars had.

They did about as much damage as a typical X-men scrap lol

Zop how about you turn it around. Begin pulling up Rachel's feats and blunders at the hands of ancient aliens mind raping her. GS' entire stance is to invalidate the Starbrand, while saying very little about the little firebird.

Originally posted by Stoic
How doesn't it compare? I believe that Graviton was one of those Avatars that were used, and he was amped by one of those Abstract beings. Kevin also effortlessly held his own against Thor, Hyperion, and the Hulk while only being in possession of the Brand for at least 8 hours. The Starbrand is also an Infinite power that is only limited by it's users imagination.

An impressive showing for Kevin. But he was lashing out in panic and fear with zero control against beings who were simply trying to contain/restrain him.

Im very well infromed regarding the StarBrand which is why I am debating on. There are levels of infinity, tiers of unlimited power. That same reference has been applied to omega level mutants, to Galactus, to cosmic cubes and yet there are beings more powerful than these I've mentioned. What im getting at is that term alone holds little weight without practical demonstration.

Originally posted by Stoic
So let's look at exactly what Rachel did again that surpasses those Avatars amplified by the Abstract beings. What did she do?

Youre asking the wrong question here entirely. Said avatars did nothing but battle Starbrand en masse. What you should be asking is what has Rachel done thats more impressive than Kevin?

No problem 🙂

Made defeating herald level beings out to kill her look like childs play and then knocked the sh*t out of Galactus:

https://imgur.com/Vfc2KGk

https://imgur.com/5WXgCAR

https://imgur.com/oSxCPYa

https://imgur.com/xKkVoAm

Overloaded a world eater that tried to consume her power

https://imgur.com/VBJjHde

https://imgur.com/m1WIAmW

Battling and dominating the global scale reality warper Alfie O Meagan like he was nothing before incinerating him:

https://imgur.com/dEcXpSG

https://imgur.com/uEBuZD2

https://imgur.com/SAXZRBW

https://imgur.com/6v5F3Nz

https://imgur.com/eQbQ9C3

https://imgur.com/s2vrnAq

Holding her own against a crazed Phoenix host who can juggle moons and create stars:

https://imgur.com/ugyt0rt

https://imgur.com/kqaP1f8

https://imgur.com/fxNkFW1

https://imgur.com/5fXPdBE

Rachel is on another level to the feats displayed by Kevin.

The 3 avatars of the abstracts had unspecified power levels. You cannot use the fact that Kevin held his own against them to equate his power to anywhere near an Abstracts. A host does not equate to what it represents. We know how a host measures up based on its on panel showings.

Originally posted by zopzop
We never judge battles or power output based on collateral damage. Pre Retcon Beyonder's 'billion dimension slagging' blast aimed at MM didn't even destroy Marsha's couch!

We also dont equate a host or avatar to the power they represent. We measure a hosts ability based on demonstrated feats.

Said avatars have zero feats beyond battling Kevin. You cant then uplift Kevin to abstract level when you dont know how powerful those avatars are.

Thats ridiculous. Youre too intelligent for that line of argument.

This ABC logic the forum seems to love in recent times belongs in the trash can.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
An impressive showing for Kevin. But he was lashing out in panic and fear with zero control against beings who were simply trying to contain/restrain him.

Im very well infromed regarding the StarBrand which is why I am debating on. There are levels of infinity, tiers of unlimited power. That same reference has been applied to omega level mutants, to Galactus, to cosmic cubes and yet there are beings more powerful than these I've mentioned. What im getting at is that term alone holds little weight without practical demonstration.

Youre asking the wrong question here entirely. Said avatars did nothing but battle Starbrand en masse. What you should be asking is what has Rachel done thats more impressive than Kevin?

No problem 🙂

Made defeating herald level beings out to kill her look like childs play and then knocked the sh*t out of Galactus:

https://imgur.com/Vfc2KGk

https://imgur.com/5WXgCAR

https://imgur.com/oSxCPYa

https://imgur.com/xKkVoAm

Overloaded a world eater that tried to consume her power

https://imgur.com/VBJjHde

https://imgur.com/m1WIAmW

Battling and dominating the global scale reality warper Alfie O Meagan like he was nothing before incinerating him:

https://imgur.com/dEcXpSG

https://imgur.com/uEBuZD2

https://imgur.com/SAXZRBW

https://imgur.com/6v5F3Nz

https://imgur.com/eQbQ9C3

https://imgur.com/s2vrnAq

Holding her own against a crazed Phoenix host who can juggle moons and create stars:

https://imgur.com/ugyt0rt

https://imgur.com/kqaP1f8

https://imgur.com/fxNkFW1

https://imgur.com/5fXPdBE

Rachel is on another level to the feats displayed by Kevin.

The 3 avatars of the abstracts had unspecified power levels. You cannot use the fact that Kevin held his own against them to equate his power to anywhere near an Abstracts. A host does not equate to what it represents. We know how a host measures up based on its on panel showings.

So, average Phoenix hosts are what, above herald level?

Originally posted by Stoic
Zop how about you turn it around. Begin pulling up Rachel's feats and blunders at the hands of ancient aliens mind raping her. GS' entire stance is to invalidate the Starbrand, while saying very little about the little firebird.

Bro relax yourself. You were being ignored until i could be bothered to upload scans to imgur.

I debate in threads where I have sufficient knowledge to bring something meaningful to the table. So rest assured if im popping up you will not be catching me out on anything. 😉

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
So, average Phoenix hosts are what, above herald level?

Average operating levels for Rachel as Phoenix were herald level and when needed to scaled up somewhere between that and Galactus level. She wasnt an impressive host. :/

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
An impressive showing for Kevin. But he was lashing out in panic and fear with zero control against beings who were simply trying to contain/restrain him.

Im very well infromed regarding the StarBrand which is why I am debating on. There are levels of infinity, tiers of unlimited power. That same reference has been applied to omega level mutants, to Galactus, to cosmic cubes and yet there are beings more powerful than these I've mentioned. What im getting at is that term alone holds little weight without practical demonstration.

Youre asking the wrong question here entirely. Said avatars did nothing but battle Starbrand en masse. What you should be asking is what has Rachel done thats more impressive than Kevin?

No problem 🙂

Made defeating herald level beings out to kill her look like childs play and then knocked the sh*t out of Galactus:

https://imgur.com/Vfc2KGk

https://imgur.com/5WXgCAR

https://imgur.com/oSxCPYa

https://imgur.com/xKkVoAm

Overloaded a world eater that tried to consume her power

https://imgur.com/VBJjHde

https://imgur.com/m1WIAmW

Battling and dominating the global scale reality warper Alfie O Meagan like he was nothing before incinerating him:

https://imgur.com/dEcXpSG

https://imgur.com/uEBuZD2

https://imgur.com/SAXZRBW

https://imgur.com/6v5F3Nz

https://imgur.com/eQbQ9C3

https://imgur.com/s2vrnAq

Holding her own against a crazed Phoenix host who can juggle moons and create stars:

https://imgur.com/ugyt0rt

https://imgur.com/kqaP1f8

https://imgur.com/fxNkFW1

https://imgur.com/5fXPdBE

Rachel is on another level to the feats displayed by Kevin.

The 3 avatars of the abstracts had unspecified power levels. You cannot use the fact that Kevin held his own against them to equate his power to anywhere near an Abstracts. A host does not equate to what it represents. We know how a host measures up based on its on panel showings.

Not seeing how any of those feats are above even the most inexperienced Starbrand user. You claimed that the Starbrand grants at best Herald level power, and I cited an inexperienced Starbrand user (Kevin) effortlessly holding his own against 3 Herald level beings within the first few hours of possessing the Starbrand. Not to mention that the Starbrand grants its user infinite power which is only limited to it's users imagination. You then refuse to acknowledge this information, and continue onward without acknowledging these facts. It's like I mentioned earlier, you've taken a stance that you assume allows you to invalidate facts.

Kevin simply raised his hand, and an entire armada of space battle cruisers fled. Read Hickman's Avengers. Kevin is well above High Herald, and posseses the power of a Cosmic Abstract being.

You know I completely forgot about the Alfie fight. He is indeed a powerful reality warper and she floored him. But still on average, she was a horrible PF host that's why I say Kevin would break her.