Lucifer and Michael versus Ultra Monitor and Mr. Mxy

@MrMind @Astner

I am aware that the Source in modern DC comics is referred to as The Presence/is The Presence, my point was that the depiction and stories of The Presence in Vertigo and The Presence/Source in modern DC are irreconcilable. Until Lucifer/Michael are revealed to be members of the Hand (which were the first of the Presence/Source”s creations in modern DC cosmology), I see no reason they should scale to it. By that logic the Spectre (Wrath of God/The Presence) would be at the very least be part of the greater omniversal hierarchy in DC, which isn”t the case.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
@MrMind @Astner

I am aware that the Source in modern DC comics is referred to as The Presence/is The Presence, my point was that the depiction and stories of The Presence in Vertigo and The Presence/Source in modern DC are irreconcilable. Until Lucifer/Michael are revealed to be members of the Hand (which were the first of the Presence/Source”s creations in modern DC cosmology), I see no reason they should scale to it. By that logic the Spectre (Wrath of God/The Presence) would be at the very least be part of the greater omniversal hierarchy in DC, which isn”t the case.

the presence has taken many forms, in the form of a dog, an old man etc

the burden of proof is on you that presence of dc is different from the presence of vertigo

the writers have never sort out the cosmic hierarchy in dc, so it's pointless to try to put the hand, michael, lucifer etc in order. they are from different stories written by different writers, no matter how hard you try to connect the dots

Originally posted by Astner
The Presence is the Source.

Lucifer's ability to shape and Michael's ability to create is equal to that of the Presence. Unlimited in scope and inexhaustble in nature, and out of nothing.

Lucifer possesses the same will as The Presence/God:
https://ibb.co/mDYmqL1

As such, Lucifer's ability to shape energy and whatnot to his whim is as unbounded as it gets in the world of comics. We saw a glimpse of that when he tanked the sum total of Michael's Demiurgic power(ie. the literal power of God) detonating in his face, then proceeded to casually warp it into a creation of his own... even creating concepts like time in the process.

In short, there is no attack that Mxy or Ultra-Monitor can deliver that would be beyond Lucifer's ability to manipulate. Imo.

The brothers win.

I always view having great power to kill doesn't mean you are unkillable. Some equate the two together. Think of gun slingers. Gun slingers are able to kill well but are also susceptible to being killed.

It's possible that abstract beings share that relationship to a degree (they can be erased as well as erase others). So it basically can be a quick draw.

Originally posted by Galan007
Pretty much how I see it.

Lucifer possesses the same will as The Presence/God:
https://ibb.co/mDYmqL1

As such, Lucifer's ability to shape energy and whatnot to his whim is as unbounded as it gets in the world of comics. We saw a glimpse of that when he tanked the sum total of Michael's Demiurgic power(ie. the literal power of God) detonating in his face, then proceeded to casually warp it into a creation of his own... even creating concepts like time in the process.

In short, there is no attack that Mxy or Ultra-Monitor can deliver that would be beyond Lucifer's ability to manipulate. Imo.

I wonder how Mxy's toon force would do against Lucifer?

Honestly, Lucifer doesn't have good gauge of power in his books. You can say what he tanked against michael but they have an intertwined power. There's also that fact that his powers doesn't work outside of the main multiverse/universe that he is from. Still he could beat Mxy with enough trickery, he's smarter and can talk his way out of most issues.

The way i see it...

Perpetua and Dr. Manhattan mirror Michael and Lucifer

The two creation stories dont fit to well with each other but they mirror each other.
They should be about even imo

Originally posted by MrMind
the presence has taken many forms, in the form of a dog, an old man etc

the burden of proof is on you that presence of dc is different from the presence of vertigo

the writers have never sort out the cosmic hierarchy in dc, so it's pointless to try to put the hand, michael, lucifer etc in order. they are from different stories written by different writers, no matter how hard you try to connect the dots

It”s hard to reconcile the two cosmologies in the sense that Michael as portrayed in DC is posted at the Gates of Heaven (which is in the Sphere of the Gods) and is also embodied in Kali (who is a denizen of the Sphere of Gods).

For Michael and Lucifer to have the same station in DC as Vertigo relatively speaking, they would have to be beings of the Greater Omniverse, not of the DC Multiverse (which Michael and the Spectre clearly seem to be). It”s possible that within DC that Lucifer and Michael embody a microbial aspect of the Source that exists within the Gates of Heaven in DC, but that doesn”t guarantee them supremacy over the Monitors or Mxy.

(Sorry for the Double Post)

This isn”t even taking into consideration (regarding the bonus) that Perpetua is a Hand of the Source gifted with the literal power of the Source, the connective energy necessary to casually shape complex Multiverses and traverse countless infinities. Her power is literally the reason why the Sphere of Gods and Heaven/Hell exist, which is where Michael is posted in DC. Perpetua is “the most feared and reviled among her kind” as well. Her place in the modern DC cosmology is every bit as impressive as Lucifer and Michael”s relative to their cosmology, and imo the DC cosmology is more impressive and more quantifiable.

The Silver City and Hell(and therfore Michael and Lucifer) being positioned within the God Sphere doesn't mean their powers are limited/confined to that actuality, anymore than The Presence presenting his power through the guise of a Scottish Terrier in the mainstream multiverse caps him to 3D power.

I do not think the literal power and will of The Presence are capped to the local multiverse.

Originally posted by Galan007
The Silver City and Hell(and therfore Michael and Lucifer) being positioned within the God Sphere doesn't mean their powers are limited/confined to that actuality, anymore than The Presence presenting his power through the guise of a Scottish Terrier in the mainstream multiverse caps him to 3D power.

I do not think the literal power and will of The Presence are capped to the local multiverse.

Well it does matter when you consider the differences between modern DC and Vertigo. In Vertigo, Lucifer and Michael are the first born and most powerful creations of The Presence, whereas in DC The Presence/Source exists at the end of the Overvoid and the Hand are his firstborn who created all the Multiverses. Perpetua literally created or was directly responsible for the formation of Heaven and Hell as we see them in DC. As such, it”s entirely possible Perpetua is responsible for Michael”s existence as well (since we now know that the Presence did not create DC, Perpetua did). I don”t know how you reconcile this with “they have the literal power and will of The Presence”, because in modern DC, there”s no way that they do, or Michael wouldn”t be posted at the Gates of Heaven in a singular Multiverse among an infinity of Multiverses that The Hands barely notice unless it”s about to be judged/destroyed.

I highly doubt Michael and Lucifer are second to the Presence in the context of modern DC, otherwise I don”t see why they would stay within the DC Multiverse or how the story of Perpetua would make sense at all, since the Chronicler/The Hand didn”t even notice what was going on with DC until the very end (because they”re so far beyond the DC Multiverse).

We”ve also seen the Spectre be able to give Michael a solid fight, with Michael considering Spectre a formidable opponent. I have my doubts that Perpetua (and especially The Hands who erased and recreated DC) would find Spectre to be any sort of challenge.

The problem is DC (and Marvel too) screwed itself with too many 'omnipotents'. Every other week it seems there's a new being responsible for creating/destroying the multiverse.

I just don”t know how you reconcile “The Presence/Source created Lucifer and Michael who created DC” and “The Presence/Source created The Hands who created an infinity of Multiverses, with Perpetua creating DC” without there being ramifications for Lucifer and Michael”s power level/relevance cosmically.

@Xsupremexskillz
I don't blame you. The writers themselves don't know at this point. LOL.

Lucifer adapts his perception to the Overvoid, and witnesses Creations rising and falling, but all the Creations take up, essentially, none of the Overvoid

with the likes of Lucifer and Michael, Silver City is merely like a hotel or a resort for them, they come and go as they please, that's why Lucifer and Presence could sit by the edge of terrace and watching creations enjoy their brief efflorescences, drinking tea

Lucifer is capable of moving in, and comprehending the nature of the boundless void which is beyond all definitions of space and time