A Fundamental Difference Between Luke & Vader

So, Charles Soule's latest Star Wars issue (#17) has given us a pretty interesting difference between Vader and Luke, which may go a long way toward explaining how Luke was able to match Vader's power so quickly, despite Vader's decades of experience.

During a dogfight between Vader and Luke in the comic, the two have a conversation over the comms. Vader states that Luke has grown more powerful in the short time since they had last met. Luke corrects Vader by claiming he had deepened his connection to the Force, and was continuing to deepen that connection with each passing day.

While this is obviously open to interpretation a bit, I think what's being said here is that Vader is still falling into the same failing as the Sith and the Jedi of the Prequels. He only sees power as influence over the Living Force. Luke, meanwhile, has learned from a wizened Yoda and Ben, who both understood the importance of the Cosmic Force. Luke's meditations on the Cosmic Force may be what allows him to more readily access his Skywalker potential, which is viewed by characters like Vader and Sidious as Luke merely growing "more powerful."

That's how I viewed their conversation, anyway. I'm sure there's more here if I dig deeper, but I just read the issue during my break at work and felt like sharing my initial theory.

Nah. This is simply one of the fundamental differences between Jedi and Sith and how they view the Force. I wouldn't say it has to do with the living vs cosmic force nor would it be a flaw with PT Jedi. Heck, if anything I'd say the PT Jedi were too focused on the Cosmic Force rather than the Living despite the fact that dark sided clouded their foresight.

I think it goes back to what Luke taught his students:
https://ibb.co/jbJN868
"Think of yourself as a door. The wider you open, the more easily the Force flows through you."

Now that Luke's had time to reflect on the training he received from Ben and Yoda + do some relic-hunting here and there + get over his loss to Vader during ESB, his proverbial 'door' is opening more and more, thereby bolstering his connection to the Force at an exponential rate.

Conversely, Vader, while still immensely powerful(the implication is that he is more powerful now than he's ever been), is almost getting stuck in the same rut that crippled Maul over the years: that of single-minded fear/hatred [towards Luke explicitly.]

Originally posted by ares834
Nah. This is simply one of the fundamental differences between Jedi and Sith and how they view the Force. I wouldn't say it has to do with the living vs cosmic force nor would it be a flaw with PT Jedi. Heck, if anything I'd say the PT Jedi were too focused on the Cosmic Force rather than the Living despite the fact that dark sided clouded their foresight.

Agree to disagree there. From my point of view, while the Jedi talk big about following the will of the (Cosmic) Force, they never actually practice what they preach.

In TPM, they're handed the Chosen One of Prophecy on a silver platter, and immediately reject him because he's "too old." They learn the Sith, the antithesis of balance, may have returned to the galaxy, but rather than send a Jedi strike force to deal with it, they bend to the whims of the Galactic Senate's constant bickering, and leave Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon on their own.

In AotC, they ignore Anakin's constant prophetic dreams of his mother dying. "Attachment is forbidden, so I'm sure these visions tooootally aren't important, and we definitely shouldn't send anyone to go rescue your mother." Same story with Anakin's visions of Padme's death in RotS.

Outside of the movies, we have The Rising Storm, Dooku: Jedi Lost, Master & Apprentice, a few story arcs from The Clone Wars, and a couple from Rebels (just to name a few), all giving us different stories where the Jedi are confronted with visions, prophecies, or other aspects of the Cosmic Force, and the Jedi almost always to refuse to heed the will of the Force. Elzar Mann utterly fails to do anything meaningful to prevent the visions he foresaw, the Jedi Council refused to act on the visions of Sifo Dyas or of Qui-Gon Jinn. The Jedi basically ignored Ahsoka's visions of Aurra Sing, leaving Ahsoka to deal with Aurra alone, and the Jedi thought Qui-Gon reaching out to Yoda was some trick of the dark side. The list goes on and on.

I think it goes back to what Luke taught his students:
https://ibb.co/jbJN868
"Think of yourself as a door. The wider you open, the more easily the Force flows through you."

Now that Luke's had time to reflect on the training he received from Ben and Yoda + do some relic-hunting here and there + get over his loss to Vader during ESB, his proverbial 'door' is opening more and more, thereby bolstering his connection to the Force at an exponential rate.

Conversely, Vader, while still immensely powerful(the implication is that he is more powerful now than he's ever been), is almost getting stuck in the same rut that crippled Maul over the years: that of single-minded fear/hatred [towards Luke explicitly.]

I absolutely agree with you here. That was actually the foundation of my theory. I think what Luke is talking about in that moment is the Cosmic Force itself. Some people's "doors" are naturally more open than others, expressing their abilities with the Living Force. But through strengthening their connection to, or acting in accordance with the Cosmic Force, they can open that door even more. That's how we have fairly weak characters like Kanan or Ezra sometimes pulling off feats in the Force that eclipse even some of Vader's greatest displays. Acting as one with the Force, in accordance to its will, is a definite substitute for raw natural power.

In this instance, Vader was born with his door almost wide open, being created by the Force itself. So he's never really had to work in order to open that door wider. Sure, he's naturally grown more powerful with time, but that's true for all Force users (as made clear by Leia in the Rise of Skywalker novel). Luke, meanwhile, hasn't had as much time or training as Vader in order to become that powerful. Instead, he's working in harmony with the Force, and deepening his connection to it in order to open that door.

Again, this is all my current theory. Nothing is ever really explicitly spelled out about how the Cosmic Force and Living Force interact, and how they're expressed in terms of raw power, ect. I just think this is a very logical explanation for how Luke grew so massively in power in such a relatively short amount of time compared to most Force users. There are plenty of other reasons for his growth, of course, but I find this one really compelling.

Originally posted by Underachiever59
Agree to disagree there. From my point of view, while the Jedi talk big about following the will of the (Cosmic) Force, they never actually practice what they preach.
In TPM, they're handed the Chosen One of Prophecy on a silver platter, and immediately reject him because he's "too old." They learn the Sith, the antithesis of balance, may have returned to the galaxy, but rather than send a Jedi strike force to deal with it, they bend to the whims of the Galactic Senate's constant bickering, and leave Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon on their own.

They aren't sure if he is the Chosen One. And they reject him not only because he is too old but because his future is clouded.

Originally posted by Underachiever59
In AotC, they ignore Anakin's constant prophetic dreams of his mother dying. "Attachment is forbidden, so I'm sure these visions tooootally aren't important, and we definitely shouldn't send anyone to go rescue your mother." Same death with Anakin's visions of Padme's death in RotS.

I'd argue the exact opposite, that this shows the Jedi's over focus on the Cosmic rather than the Living Force. They've become so detached from their own emotions and normal life they can't emphasize with Anakin both here with his mother and later on in RotS. To me, at least, this was one of the big points of the prequels with the Jedi focusing so much on the will of the Force they neutered themselves, especially once the dark side began to hinder their ocular powers. Qui-Gon, who is a maverick Jedi, is the only character in the prequels to stress the importance of the Living Force and the here and now. By contrast the Jedi council is always focusing on the future. It's only in ESB that Yoda seems to come around to the POV.

Originally posted by Underachiever59
I absolutely agree with you here. That was actually the foundation of my theory. I think what Luke is talking about in that moment is the Cosmic Force itself. Some people's "doors" are naturally more open than others, expressing their abilities with the Living Force. But through strengthening their connection to, or acting in accordance with the Cosmic Force, they can open that door even more. That's how we have fairly weak characters like Kanan or Ezra sometimes pulling off feats in the Force that eclipse even some of Vader's greatest displays. Acting as one with the Force, in accordance to its will, is a definite substitute for raw natural power.

In this instance, Vader was born with his door almost wide open, being created by the Force itself. So he's never really had to work in order to open that door wider. Sure, he's naturally grown more powerful with time, but that's true for all Force users (as made clear by Leia in the Rise of Skywalker novel). Luke, meanwhile, hasn't had as much time or training as Vader in order to become that powerful. Instead, he's working in harmony with the Force, and deepening his connection to it in order to open that door.

Again, this is all my current theory. Nothing is ever really explicitly spelled out about how the Cosmic Force and Living Force interact, and how they're expressed in terms of raw power, ect. I just think this is a very logical explanation for how Luke grew so massively in power in such a relatively short amount of time compared to most Force users. There are plenty of other reasons for his growth, of course, but I find this one really compelling.

That said, I would imagine that Luke's connection to the Cosmic Force is indeed what's really progressing here. His massive connection to the Living Force(which is a prerequisite for utilizing the projection technique and becoming a Force Spirit, for example) will likely come later down the road, once he begins refining his abilities even moreso.

As for Vader- he fears Luke, because he knows what Luke has the potential to become(ie. his replacement) -- and because of that, he hates Luke and wants him dead. In many ways, Vader's actions are beginning to mirror those of Maul in a sense, as he is letting this single-minded directive completely guide his actions(similarly to Maul's crippling fixation over Kenobi)... Luke, on the other hand, is not 'inhibited' in such a way -- his abilities(and overall mindset) are continuously evolving.

Originally posted by Galan007
I don't think Luke is yet at the point where he is consciously differentiating between the Cosmic and Living Force. I think he has simply reached a point of enlightenment where his 'door' continues opening wider and wider, and is therefore receiving an ever increasing connection to "the Force"(in general) as a corollary... A deepening connection that Vader interprets as greater power(which is also accurate.)

That said, I would imagine that Luke's connection to the Cosmic Force is indeed what's really progressing here. His massive connection to the Living Force(which is a prerequisite for utilizing the projection technique and becoming a Force Spirit, for example) will likely come later down the road, once he begins refining his abilities even moreso.

As for Vader- he fears Luke, because he knows what Luke has the potential to become(ie. his replacement) -- and because of that, he hates Luke and wants him dead. In many ways, Vader's actions are beginning to mirror those of Maul in a sense, as he is letting this single-minded directive completely guide his actions(similarly to Maul's crippling fixation over Kenobi)... Luke, on the other hand, is not 'inhibited' in such a way -- his abilities(and overall mindset) are continuously evolving.

I definitely agree with you that Luke himself probably isn't consciously differentiating between the Cosmic and the Living Force. I think we're pretty much in agreement, and just wording the point differently.

It is fascinating to see Vader actually pursuing Luke out of hatred and fear in the comics for a change, instead of just seeking to turn Luke to his side. It's a really interesting development for his character that we haven't really seen in Legends.