Abortion

Started by GrieverSquall787 pages

Originally posted by TacDavey
No, it isn't technically a "child" but is it a person? The law has already determined that the fetus get's rights at some point in the womb. So to say the fetus, by definition, isn't a person is incorrect.

The question still remains as to WHEN the fetus should be treated as a person.

Well, I'm not an adept in the rights field, to be honest, so I don't know if I could give you a proper veredict concerning a person's rights. But I'd say that if a fetus is treated like a regular, let's say, ''citizen'' with rights, then the mother who does an abortion as well as the doctors involved in the surgery should go to jail. However, that doesn't happen whatsoever, am I correct...?

Originally posted by TacDavey

No, it isn't technically a "child" but is it a person? The law has already determined that the fetus get's rights at some point in the womb. So to say the fetus, by definition, isn't a person is incorrect.

The question still remains as to WHEN the fetus should be treated as a person.

At 5 months the fetus has rights accoding to The Planned Parenthood v. Casey Standard

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Well, I'm not an adept in the rights field, to be honest, so I don't know if I could give you a proper veredict concerning a person's rights. But I'd say that if a fetus is treated like a regular, let's say, ''citizen'' with rights, then the mother who does an abortion as well as the doctors involved in the surgery should go to jail. However, that doesn't happen whatsoever, am I correct...?

That's right. Because right now the fetus isn't being treated as a person. The question is SHOULD it? Why or why not?

Originally posted by Utsukushii
At 5 months the fetus has rights accoding to The Planned Parenthood v. Casey Standard

I know. I'm wondering what the fetus has at that stage that makes it a "person" that it didn't have before.

Originally posted by TacDavey
I know. I'm wondering what the fetus has at that stage that makes it a "person" that it didn't have before.
They have a chance of surviving outside of the womb

And that's when God gives them their soul.

Originally posted by Bardock42
And that's when God gives them their soul.

Wrong, the soul is in the sperm; each little sperm has its own little soul.

Originally posted by Utsukushii
They have a chance of surviving outside of the womb

Alright, and why does the fact that they have a chance to survive outside of the womb make them a person?

Originally posted by Robtard
Wrong, the soul is in the sperm; each little sperm has its own little soul.

That's an odd way of thinking about it 😬

Originally posted by TacDavey
Alright, and why does the fact that they have a chance to survive outside of the womb make them a person?

well what would you define a person to be?

Originally posted by Utsukushii
That's an odd way of thinking about it 😬

I would have said retarded and machismo, but "odd" works.

Originally posted by Robtard
I would have said retarded and machismo, but "odd" works.

i was trying to be nice

Originally posted by Utsukushii
i was trying to be nice

Show me your butt-hole then.

Originally posted by Utsukushii
well what would you define a person to be?

thats the beauty of his position

he never has to provide that, simply say that it is impossible, thus no abortion

is it unfalsifiable, a logical fallacy and a misconstruction of the burden of proof? of course. Is there any real way to argue against it? nope.

Originally posted by inimalist
thats the beauty of his position

he never has to provide that, simply say that it is impossible, thus no abortion

is it unfalsifiable, a logical fallacy and a misconstruction of the burden of proof? of course. Is there any real way to argue against it? nope.

To be fair, it's the same nonsense dilemma for the pro-abortion. What makes a fetus a person at exactly 22 weeks and not 21.5? Is there some easily definable element that happens at week 22 where it goes from being (as some would say) "a lump of cells" to a person. Cos that's quiet a huge difference/leap.

One minute is has no more right than my liver, the second it's Constitutionally protected. Maybe Rights should be scalable, wait, they are.

Originally posted by Robtard
To be fair, it's the same nonsense dilemma for the pro-abortion. What makes a fetus a person at exactly 22 weeks and not 21.5? Is there some easily definable element that happens at week 22 where it goes from being (as some would say) "a lump of cells" to a person. Cos that's quiet a huge difference/leap.

well, only if the pro-choice side allows themselves to get sucked into such a debate.

also, the real question is hardly a black/white, 1/0 type of thing. Not only is such a line impossible to identify, the philosophy and science behind what life is would suggest it doesn't exist at all.

lol, I could give you a huge treatise about how weighing a woman's rights, safety in society, etc etc etc, could produce a reasonable window that we could claim is potentially safe, but like, in terms of the absolutist views in this thread, that is so much more nuance than anyone wants to deal with.

cause, you know, if you can't fit the answer on a bumper sticker, its not worth considering.

But again, it is a valid question, unanswerable as it may be.

I've heard anti death-penalty proponents use the "you can never be certain if a 'man' is truly guilty and the death-penalty is permanent".

This is true, sadly. "Get Out Of My Uterus" and "Abortion Is Murder" fit nicely on a 3"X6".

you probably wouldn't see me use that line of logic though...

imho the death penalty is about society being better than those it gives itself the right to imprison, rather than the fact it could permanently end the life of someone. I grant you, it is an argument, just, ya, I try to avoid things that deliberately try to make the issue more confusing than it is

the other answer would be, the chance our legal system is wrong is actually pretty great. The chance that our lord God infused the embryo with an enduring soul that guarantees a right to life at penetration is laughably small from any empirical perspective, which I am biased toward. The only way such a window isn't an acceptable approach is if you believe in some sky-father actively putting souls in lumps of cells, otherwise the whole notion of some "moment" where life begins is nonsensical. Its like asking where on the spectrum of visible light red starts and orange stops.

additionally, "guilt" and "life" are much different concepts. someone did or did not do the action they are accused of. In a perfect system, this would be knowable. life is not binary like this, as there are many things that appear to be somewhat alive and somewhat not. Further, life is entirely an anthropic construct that we have decided ourselves, not something like guilt that describes an action (ok, we say it is wrong, but otherwise, the action occurred no matter how we describe it). To say there might be a definition of life outside of the human definition for life, or the one that humans use to define a window of when a child might be alive, really is only possible if you think there is an intelligence behind life in the first place, which I don't and I fervently think our legal and governmental system shouldn't.

Originally posted by inimalist
you probably wouldn't see me use that line of logic though...

Because you're not a moron.

Originally posted by Robtard
Because you're not a moron.

takes one to know one

Though, if you both were morons, wouldn't you think the exact same thing?