New Duel Between Vader and Sidious

Hidden Empire #4 dropped today, and in it, Palpatine and Vader had a sparring session. For those who haven't been reading Hidden Empire, some context:
Hidden Empire takes place between ESB and RotJ. Qi'ra, now leading Crimson Dawn, is seeking to dispose Palpatine to liberate the galaxy from the skewed balance of power created by the Empire. Her plan to topple Vader and Sidious is to use an ancient piece of Sith technology known as the Fermata Cage (built by Lord Momin), and either free an ancient Sith who may or may not be trapped inside, or use the cage to trap Vader and Sidious when they try to stop it from being opened.

In preparation for a potential confrontation against a dangerous ancient Sith, Palpatine asks Vader to spar with him, since Palpatine hasn't used a lightsaber in many years.

This is the second time Vader and Palpatine have been depicted engaging in a lightsaber duel, with the first being in Charles Soule's 100th Star Wars comic issue, taking place between Vader defeating the Grand Inquisitor and Vader maiming the rest of the Inquisitorious (Sidious teaches Vader to stop fighting like a Jedi, which is a lesson Vader is shown passing on to the Inquisitors in the 2017 Vader comic).

In that first duel, Sidious very quickly disarmed Vader, them ragdolled Vader with the Force. In the most recent duel, Vader and Sidious fight pretty much evenly until Sidious deactivates his lightsaber and states, "Enough, Lord Vader," at which point Vader is ready to strike Sidious down, but stops himself when Sidious reiterates "That is enough."

The two duels go to show Vader has grown tremendously between the early days of the Empire and post-ESB. Palpatine can no longer humiliate Vader in a duel, and they appear on roughly even footing.

I'd share pictures, but I'm currently on mobile and having trouble adding them. I'll try to add the side by side comparisons when I get home.

I disagree, as Palps seemed to have gotten an advantage in the end, violently breaking their saber lock and making Vader go all "rrragh".

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
I disagree, as Palps seemed to have gotten an advantage in the end, violently breaking their saber lock and making Vader go all "rrragh".

"Violently breaking their saber lock"? That's a bold statement, considering there's no... You know... Motion to go off of. The comics medium is murky at best for trying to discern choreography, and there's no real sense of time.

Also, "rrragh" could mean anything. Could just be Vader, you know, giving into anger? Like a Sith? Drawing on his hatred and aggression?

At the end of the day, Palpatine didn't defeat Vader in this duel, and instead simply called the match off, while in their previous duel, Palpatine utterly humiliated Vader by disarming him and pummeling him with TK.

Yeah that was pretty cool I saw that. Really shows you how powerful Vader is if he can go toe to toe with the Emperor and nearly strike him down.

Also goes to show how submissive Vader is to Palpatine. He was so close to cutting him down, he could have easily killed him there if he wanted to.

Dunno how much can be gleaned from such a short exchange... But clearly Vader's saber skills increased between the events of RotS and RotJ(which we already knew.)

"Certainly brighter than the dim light of Maul."

Maul keeps taking Ls. Even when he's dead.

Since when is sparring used as an actual duel. Years later Sidious proved that he could have stomped Vader just as easily, so yeah this was just sparring, no different from Tiin holding his own against Windu

Originally posted by Total Warrior
Since when is sparring used as an actual duel.

Since this is a sparring session between a Sith master and apprentice. Or have you totally forgotten how the Sith work? Palpatine and Vader don't just casually spar like Obi-Wan and Anakin did. Every time a Sith master spars with their apprentice, they run the risk of being struck down. Every sparring match between Sith is a potentially lethal affair. That's how the Rule of Two works. The master needs to demonstrate overwhelming superiority to the apprentice every chance they get. They have to embody the power, so the apprentice continues to crave that power. But that's not what we saw in this sparring session. The two dueled relatively evenly, and instead of making an example of his superior power by disarming and pummeling Vader like he did in their last match, Palpatine simply turned away and declared the sparring match to be over.

Originally posted by Total Warrior
Years later Sidious proved that he could have stomped Vader just as easily, so yeah this was just sparring, no different from Tiin holding his own against Windu

You have your timeline backwards. The instance you're thinking of happened literally days after Vader was placed in his suit. This duel happened just before Return of the Jedi. Almost 23 years after Sidious stomped Vader.

Yes, at the end of the day, this was a sparring match. Both Vader and Sidious were preparing for a confrontation against an ancient Sith that Qi'ra is trying to awaken. But the fact is, this sparring match went way different from their last sparring match following Revenge of the Sith. In the previous sparring match, Vader was reeling on his back foot, Palpatine was dodging Vader's strikes, then Vader was swiftly disarmed and thrashed with the Force. 23 years later, and Vader is trading blows evenly with Palpatine. Vader is now on Palpatine's level as a duelist as of the ESB-RotJ era, and Palpatine chose to declare the match over rather than actually defeating Vader the way he did before.

Originally posted by Underachiever59
Both Vader and Sidious were preparing for a confrontation against an ancient Sith that Qi'ra is trying to awaken.

With Soule writing that is who I'm betting on.

Originally posted by Eli Vanto
You think it's Momin?

With Soule writing that is who I'm betting on.

Nah, I think it's someone different. Momin is said to have made the Fermata Cage to trap a dangerous Sith. I don't think Momin made it to trap himself. But it was a rival Sith from the same era. I'm kind of wondering if it might be Exim Panshard, since we know Palpatine had Exim Panshard's mask before the Battle of Endor (and after Palpatine's death, it fell into the hands of his closest adviser, Yupe Tashu).

If it is Exim Panshard, then Palpatine and Vader's performance against the ancient Sith can be contrasted to Luke's performance against the reborn Exim Panshard in Shadow of the Sith, which would be neat.

Nice, this is great proof of Vader’s skill growth

Originally posted by Underachiever59
Since this is a sparring session between a Sith master and apprentice. Or have you totally forgotten how the Sith work? Palpatine and Vader don't just casually spar like Obi-Wan and Anakin did. Every time a Sith master spars with their apprentice, they run the risk of being struck down. Every sparring match between Sith is a potentially lethal affair. That's how the Rule of Two works. The master needs to demonstrate overwhelming superiority to the apprentice every chance they get. They have to embody the power, so the apprentice continues to crave that power. But that's not what we saw in this sparring session. The two dueled relatively evenly, and instead of making an example of his superior power by disarming and pummeling Vader like he did in their last match, Palpatine simply turned away and declared the sparring match to be over.

You have your timeline backwards. The instance you're thinking of happened literally days after Vader was placed in his suit. This duel happened just before Return of the Jedi. Almost 23 years after Sidious stomped Vader.

Yes, at the end of the day, this was a sparring match. Both Vader and Sidious were preparing for a confrontation against an ancient Sith that Qi'ra is trying to awaken. But the fact is, this sparring match went way different from their last sparring match following Revenge of the Sith. In the previous sparring match, Vader was reeling on his back foot, Palpatine was dodging Vader's strikes, then Vader was swiftly disarmed and thrashed with the Force. 23 years later, and Vader is trading blows evenly with Palpatine. Vader is now on Palpatine's level as a duelist as of the ESB-RotJ era, and Palpatine chose to declare the match over rather than actually defeating Vader the way he did before.

Originally posted by Total Warrior
No sidious and vader fought again, I think around 0 BBY, and Sidious disarmed him veeery easily

Wow awesome !! will you by any chance have a scan of this?

Originally posted by Total Warrior
No sidious and vader fought again, I think around 0 BBY, and Sidious disarmed him veeery easily

Again, your timeline is backwards. The duel you are thinking of took place in 19 BBY, 23 years before 4ABY when this duel takes place. Vader and Sidious first fought within days of Vader being placed in his suit. That's the duel where Sidious disarmed very "veeery easily." THIS duel takes place 23 years after the fact, a short time before Return of the Jedi. And here, Vader is roughly on par with Sidious, and Sidious choses to declare the duel over instead of actually bothering to defeat his apprentice. To my knowledge, those two duels (both written by Charles Soule, coincidentally) are the only two times we've ever seen Vader and Palpatine duel in either Legends or Canon.

Originally posted by ozz81
Wow awesome !! will you by any chance have a scan of this?

This is the sparring session in question:

Vader still has Kirak Infil'a's lightsaber, and the lesson Palpatine teaches Vader here ("You fight like a Jedi"😉 is one Vader then passes on to the Inquisitorius very shortly after meeting them. Implying this duel takes place within days/weeks of Revenge of the Sith. Which makes since, as Palpatine's dialogue in the comic implies this is the first time he has ever sparred with Vader.

The fight that Galen posted took place 23 years later. And clearly, Vader held his own much, much better.

Now that I have the two duels side by side, I thought it would be fun to do a little comparison of what little choreography we can see. It's worth noting that both comics are written by Charles Soule, and both display the entirety of the lightsaber portion of the duel in a single page spread. The two comics were also released only a few months apart. In a way, the two duels are kind of companion pieces for one another.

Right out of the gate, there's an obvious comparison. Palpatine, flinging himself horizontally through the air with his lightsaber poised ahead of him, the same maneuver he pulled when he faced the Jedi Strike Team. The big difference? In their first duel, Palpatine was depicted as moving in a blur toward Vader, and Vader was immediately placed on the defensive (Palpatine's arm outstretched in attack, Vader's arm tucked close to the body in a defensive posture). In their second duel, however, Vader meets Palpatine's attack with one of his own, and Palpatine no longer appears as a blur.

Continuing on, in their first duel (top left), Palpatine rather easily dodged Vader's attacks, in much the same way he had done to Savage Oppress. In the new duel (top right), Vader and Palpatine are both delivering attacks, clashing blades.

As the first duel went on (bottom left), Vader was clearly shown off balance and in retreat, with Palpatine advancing toward him. In the new duel (bottom right), Palpatine is depicted as on the defensive, arms tucked close to his body as he blocks one of Vader's attacks. A mirror of their blade clash from the previous example.

At the conclusion of their first duel (left), Palpatine disarmed Vader, catching the lightsaber and blasting Vader back with TK. A clear showing of dominance, as befitting a Sith master. In the latest sparring match (right), the duel ends with Vader grunting "rrrragh!," and maybe Palpatine scoring a glancing blow on Vader's right pauldron? The art is a little iffy to me, given the angles of their blades and where the glow is on Vader's shoulder. Even if Palpatine did tag him, there is zero visible damage in later panels, and we know Vader has been tagged in the same fashion by duelists below his caliber before (ESB Luke), so it's not really an indication of superiority. After that, Palpatine simply declares "Enough, Lord Vader" and ends the duel. No clear display of dominance, no example of his overwhelming power. Just an assertion of authority that he expects Vader to obey.

All told, the new duel is a pretty stark contrast from the original. Vader is able to fight toe-to-toe with Palpatine, and even place him on the defensive at one point. And instead of flaunting his superiority to his apprentice to keep Vader subservient, Palpatine chooses to call off the sparring match entirely, which is pretty out-of-character for any Sith master. I'm firmly of the belief that (as a lightsaber duelist), RotJ Vader is on the same tier as RotJ Palpatine, and Palpatine simply didn't want to risk showing weakness to Vader during a sparring session, which would run the risk of Vader trying to outright supplant him.

I don't think anything that has to do with Vader now being relative to Palpatine can be extrapolated from this. The only solid knowledge that can be gathered from this issue is that Vader did grow substantially as a duelist. At the end of the spar, it seemed that Palpatine was making Vader grunt just with the force of his strike clashing with his saber, similar to what Kenobi did to Vader in the TV series. Although doing it in what is basically at the start of the fight against a demonstrably more refined Vader compared to what is basically ROTS Obi-Wan doing it after wearing pre-prime Vader down in a war of attrition is significantly more impressive IMO. Good OT Palpatine duelist wank, which is actually a very rare thing to come by.

You are also all missing the fact that Palpatine was clearly out of practice with a Saber. Hence why he wanted to spar.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
You are also all missing the fact that Palpatine was clearly out of practice with a Saber. Hence why he wanted to spar.

Feature, not a bug. I'm not saying Vader is reaching RotS Palpatine levels. I'm saying Vader is nearing equality with the Palpatine of this time period, just before RotJ. The gap is narrowing, which was the point of my post comparing the two duels. Vader improved, Palpatine is out of practice, and so by RotJ, they're nearly equal as duelists.

Also, Palpatine being out of practice shouldn't affect his combat speed. That's something granted to him by his sheer raw power in the Force, which has only grown over the years. So Vader's demonstrated ability to now fight at Palpatine's speed is a clear and impressive display of growth.