Orion replaces Thanos vs Odin

The Surfer is heavily nerfed in a comic setting. The power cosmic is supposed to actually allow the user to see the future, but they don't do that with the Surfer because no one would ever survive an encounter with him.

All of this talk of Orion being above the Surfer is bunk. In a forum Battle where both opponents are fighting to the best of their abilities, the Surfer could literally phase his hand into Orion's chest and pull his heart out.

You want to pay close attention to what the Mother Box can do. You also need to pay close attention to what the Surfer alone with the power cosmic can do in battle.

Thanos is able to not only match the heralds of Galactus but also defeat them because he also uses the power cosmic as well as dark arts like magic, as well as telepathy.

It's harder to stop someone that is going berserk when the ones trying to stop them are trying not to kill you. This is what you see in comics. Darkseid being above Thanos has yet to be seen. I'm talking about the avatars that show up and do battle with the Justice league. Not this mysterious Darkseid that no one has ever truly seen.

Originally posted by Stoic
The Surfer is heavily nerfed in a comic setting. The power cosmic is supposed to actually allow the user to see the future, but they don't do that with the Surfer because no one would ever survive an encounter with him.

All of this talk of Orion being above the Surfer is bunk. In a forum Battle where both opponents are fighting to the best of their abilities, the Surfer could literally phase his hand into Orion's chest and pull his heart out.

You want to pay close attention to what the Mother Box can do. You also need to pay close attention to what the Surfer alone with the power cosmic can do in battle.

Thanos is able to not only match the heralds of Galactus but also defeat them because he also uses the power cosmic as well as dark arts like magic, as well as telepathy.

It's harder to stop someone that is going berserk when the ones trying to stop them are trying not to kill you. This is what you see in comics. Darkseid being above Thanos has yet to be seen. I'm talking about the avatars that show up and do battle with the Justice league. Not this mysterious Darkseid that no one has ever truly seen.

So you simultaneously talk about how Surfer is nerfed in comics....

And are blind to the New Gods also being nerfed in comics?

What are you even talking about? Darkseid’s feats and scaling are far beyond the both of them.

^ Darkseid's feats and scaling are far beyond Odin's? Please elaborate.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So you simultaneously talk about how Surfer is nerfed in comics....

And are blind to the New Gods also being nerfed in comics?

Orion is organic, and the Surfer like the Mother Box is super science. The Surfer can harm Orion alone. This is why I place Orion squarely within the high herald tier. What he did to an avatar of his father has no bearing upon how he would scale to Odin, and or more importantly to Thanos.

Originally posted by Stoic
Orion is organic, and the Surfer like the Mother Box is super science. The Surfer can harm Orion alone. This is why I place Orion squarely within the high herald tier. What he did to an avatar of his father has no bearing upon how he would scale to Odin, and or more importantly to Thanos.

See, if you're taking each character to their supposed ultimate levels, then Orion isn't organic - he's a literal concept/idea. That's before you take the Motherbox into account.

^ How often has Orion's alleged existence as a concept/idea made a difference in his fights?

Originally posted by ODG
^ Darkseid's feats and scaling are far beyond Odin's? Please elaborate.

With Odin a huge case could be made for his higher feats, and they match up pretty well, but I’d still wager Darkseid is more powerful.

^ What feats are you referring to that are divorced from alternate-universe versions, the ALE or the conglomerated True Form Darkseid?

Those are things that are never mentioned. What I see when I see Orion is a high herald when translated to the regular non new gods universe. Darkseid avatars translate roughly to trans tier level characters.

Thanos literally remained alive retrieving the Regulator., which shows that it takes a helluva lot of damage to put him down.

Originally posted by ODG
^ How often has Orion's alleged existence as a concept/idea made a difference in his fights?

Not the point.

Stoic is saying (rightly) that the Surfer is always nerfed in comics, that he is essentially an avatar for the Power Cosmic, a quasi mystical building block of the universe and thus, should have zero limits in a forum fight.

I am saying well if we're giving him this zero limits (despite this never happening in comics) based on his 'status', then the same status should be given to Orion.

It's a thing that Stoic and I have been having over the course of many threads.

Except Orion isn't the living embodiment of super science, nor does either of them have to hold back in a forum fight. The Surfer can cross distance faster than Orion can blink. Has Surfer ever shown the ability to become intangible? Has he ever created a star? Can he affect Onions very organic body? Is Orion immune to the power cosmic? The power cosmic also grants cosmic awareness. These are just a few things that are rarely showcased, however it doesn't mean that he lacks the ability just that plot dictates what characters do in comics. It's more like the Orion supporters saying that the Surfer could do nothing to Orion.

Originally posted by Stoic
Except Orion isn't the living embodiment of super science, nor does either of them have to hold back in a forum fight. The Surfer can cross distance faster than Orion can blink. Has Surfer ever shown the ability to become intangible? Has he ever created a star? Can he affect Onions very organic body? Is Orion immune to the power cosmic? The power cosmic also grants cosmic awareness. These are just a few things that are rarely showcased, however it doesn't mean that he lacks the ability just that plot dictates what characters do in comics. It's more like the Orion supporters saying that the Surfer could do nothing to Orion.

But he IS a living idea. That's your problem here - Orion is, if we are attributing status and using that, a living concept.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
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...,.....

The New Gods are actual thoughts and concepts. Archetypes. The bullet he shot Orion with, for example, as Bats explains, was the very IDEA of a bullet, was every bullet made and will be made.

Orion IS the idea of war. He isn't just the god of war, he IS war. Now, how that helps in a forum fight is not the point I am making - the point I'm making is that we shouldn't just rely on what characters 'are'.

The New Gods are gods, just like the name suggests.

Even Darkseid referred to himself as the "Evil's God" in Justice League Incarnate (2021) #4.

But what they are, or allege to be, represent, or embody shouldn't matter. Batman could be referred to as "justice incarnate," and it wouldn't change the fact that he's just a guy dressed up in a bat-inspired costume.

Originally posted by Astner
The New Gods are gods, just like the name suggests.

Even Darkseid referred to himself as the "Evil's God" in Justice League Incarnate (2021) #4.

But what they are, or allege to be, represent, or embody shouldn't matter. Batman could be referred to as "justice incarnate," and it wouldn't change the fact that he's just a guy dressed up in a bat-inspired costume.

My point exactly.

Stoic: Surfer is the embodiment of the Power Cosmic, science incarnate. Orion is just an organic being. Surfer wins.

Me: Well, Orion is war incarnate, not just an organic being. Attributing a win just because of what Surfer is meant to be, is incorrect.

Originally posted by Astner
The New Gods are gods, just like the name suggests.

Even Darkseid referred to himself as the "Evil's God" in Justice League Incarnate (2021) #4.

But what they are, or allege to be, represent, or embody shouldn't matter. Batman could be referred to as "justice incarnate," and it wouldn't change the fact that he's just a guy dressed up in a bat-inspired costume.

https://i.imgur.com/CYhjMo6.jpg

That's more than anything Surfer has shown.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But he IS a living idea. That's your problem here - Orion is, if we are attributing status and using that, a living concept.

Orion IS the idea of war. He isn't just the god of war, he IS war. Now, how that helps in a forum fight is not the point I am making - the point I'm making is that we shouldn't just rely on what characters 'are'.

When does all of that matter in his physical battles? ODG asked you that, but you decided that it was irrelevant. I think that it's very relevant, because that didn't matter during Hardcore Station at all. Orion was tossed about like all other heros. Would any of that matter if Orion fought Doomsday? Of course not, he'd get bludgeoned like everyone else.

Originally posted by Stoic
When does all of that matter in his physical battles? ODG asked you that, but you decided that it was irrelevant. I think that it's very relevant, because that didn't matter during Hardcore Station at all. Orion was tossed about like all other heros. Would any of that matter if Orion fought Doomsday? Of course not, he'd get bludgeoned like everyone else.

Because he's always nerfed in comics, just the exact same argument you're using for Surfer here. See the top of this page, your own post.

Same way Surfer doesn't do half the things you think he should be able to do in comics.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But he IS a living idea. That's your problem here - Orion is, if we are attributing status and using that, a living concept.

Orion IS the idea of war. He isn't just the god of war, he IS war. Now, how that helps in a forum fight is not the point I am making - the point I'm making is that we shouldn't just rely on what characters 'are'.

Zero difference.