Terminator - Time Travel Issues

I agree, but (detail again) in a strange way there is not future anymore..the future is here..the history of things that came. So i agree that's the only time trave necessary. they MAYBE should show t-1000 and t-x go back with the 2nd t-800 and the t-850. And maybe show the t-50 design change from nuclear to hydrogen cells etc. but they will have to have subtitle showing the battles and skip around a bit so its' not like 2001 space odessy. war will have quiet dead spots..so they should show major battles that change the tide along with flashbacks, cameos, some storytelling and rounding off and smoothing out the problems in the plot and show what was mentione in t1 t2 and t3 that didn't get changed.

I think the timeline we see in T1 isn't even the 'original'... I think humans from somewhere well beyond the year 2029 or 2032 first invented time travel, OR, aliens came to explore Earth and were drawn by heat and conflict, and their spacecraft was used for time-travel experiments... they visited the Old West, and the jungles of South America and the concrete jungle of gangland LA, these Predators, and each time, they were met by human resistance, warriors who defeated the alien predators and sent them running away. At some point, humans took control of the time-traveling spacecraft, and tried to return to a time before the predators had damaged the timeline. Unfortunately, all this ended up doing was corrupting the timeline further, giving humans from a distant past ideas on how to vastly improve their future by inventing 'machines' to do our work for us...

Time passed and passed and the human resistance from the future kept going back and trying to alter things, but each time, the aliens still came back, and each time were defeated by man, all the while man developed machines at a greatly-increased rate in each successive time-loop...

finally, eventually the machines became self-aware, and fought back against their creators, which inspired humans to use the time-machine again, this time to prevent the machines from taking over... they try again and again and again, staying 1 step ahead of the machines, or so they hope, but they have lost focus on the real cause of the problem... unfortunately, by this time, the space-time continuum is so distorted, damaged and corrupted from all past meddling, and humans have become so certain that the machines started it all, they no longer realize or even remember that the TDE is actually from the Predator spacecraft. So, that's why Judgement Day is inevitable, thats why the future war with the machines happens no matter what; because the past history of the world is corrupted by the Predator TDE craft, long long before Sarah or John Connor were even born...

Arnold needs to meet with Danny Glover so Danny can show Arnold the wild west pistol Danny got from the Predator, and he and Arnold can figure out that this is where the problem started, in the wild west!

Schwarzenegger, Glover, Pesci, and Chris Rock as T-Doggy-Dogg69 in:
Terminator 5: The Future War of 1812!
Only in theaters, July 2032

Its mindboggling even coming from a purely fictitious point of view! OK, I thinkt Shkynet may have alternative pasts, odd as that may sound. The Cyberdyne origin of Skynet was nullified, so it became an internet virus instead.

I finally got it!! This is a must read, a very well-written explaination about time-travel in the Terminator movies.

mjyoung.net/time/terminat.html

It all makes sense now, to me

It's very well told. I liked it. Good job Zero The Hero!!!

Beware of posting links though... such a thread was closed just this minute...

But a good explanation, nevertheless...

I hope they dont close this. Every Die-hard fan of Terminator should read this page, its excellent.

There's no problem if they close this thread {as you'll still be able to see that link}. It's if they DELETE the post that you might have a problem...

But that probably won't happen...

Yeah, I'd found that one. They say that the rebels sent a defender back DESPITE KNOWING that the terminators had failed... I can't really believe the military could take down the T-1000. T3 simply contradicts their theory.

that thinking gets tricky... you have to know that once Skynet sends a terminator back, if the terminator succeeded in its mission, that future would have altered instantly and the rebels could not send back a defender from the same future the machines sent back a terminator, because that future no longer exists... so, we have to believe that the terminator failed any way, before the defender was sent back, in order that the rebels still remain in that same timeline at the point the machines send back the defender...

the movies all just show the 'best-case' scenarios of the repeating and evolving flows of the temporal anomolies, while time and participants figure themselves out and go with the flow...

I'm sure T-3 can be broken down in much the same way as the first 2 were broken down by that same N-Jump theory and explanation... as well as T4 being set-up and explained in the same manner... it will just take a good writer, with a solid grasp of all that needs to happen to affect all that has happened, without much deviation or distortion, in order to complete the story...

there will have to be some scene at the end of the final movie, to explain either going back and erasing all previous installments, reverting to the original N-timeline, where no machines no SkyNet no war... or to reflect the humans defeating the time-travelling, but not preventing the war because the Judgment Day was inevitable, and just going forward with whats left over of humanity and the planet in post-apocalpytic 'bliss'...

in the end, we have to remember 'history is written by the winners' and since the voice-over narrations at the beginnings and ends of the movies so far have been humans, we have to know that humans will ultimately be victorious over the machiens, regardless how many times the machines try to stop us...

Bumping, as it makes for good discussion.

Very good discussion. 😎

What about the fact that Reese has the same photo taken of Sara?

I guess that theory in the second link clears things, but that's something I've always wondered about.

The whole timetravelling-thing has gotten me thinking all over again again....and again.
Thus watching all three movies again two times was necessary+ all the extras etc...;

The 1st movie can't be the first timeline, because John must have been born firstly out of an unknown father(in another timeline) to be THE John Connor in the timeline of Reese(before he was sent back to 1984).
The photo made of Sarah at the end of T1 got me thinking about the multiple timeloops-issue before the actual first movie.
Reese has this exact same photo in the future>>>how did he get it if you count that the T1 timeline isn't even the first timeline?, ok, John gave it to him, that I know.
The first father possibly has been killed by another terminator, trying to protect Sarah and her unborn son in an unseen timeline, Sarah somehow destroys or escapes the Terminator and the photo is shot in exact the same way as seen in T1 with the same sad expression on her face. So in the T1-time Reese replaced the dead father as John's new father for an altered timeline.
Reese said in T1 that John’s father died before the war, but actually was talking about himself in the past tense>A timeloop I haven’t figured out yet.
This could mean there must have been another protector before Reese, from yet another timeline, who could tell her all these horrible future events.
And not forgetting that even before these unseen timelines another timeline existed just to make John the big future leader which The Machines are so frustrated by to send a Terminator through time.
In the unseen future timeline Reese must have been a super loyal soldier, confident and friend to John Connor(he trusts on Reese’s experience to send him on a dangerous mission on which they discover the timedisplacement sphere)and so the T1 timeline is setup.
By the way; Reese volunteered for this mission(his reason to meet Sarah Connor)….John just told too much, but he had to if he would get Reese convinced and get him in love with Sarah.
So in this instance the altered timeline(T1) now gives us a hint why John sends his new father(Reese) back to 1984, not only to be a protecter for Sarah(and himself) but also to be his father.
The other thing that bothers me is that Reese explained in T1 that Sarah would teach John how to prepare for the future war, how to fight, which means she must have known from another timeloop-event how to deal with the coming storm.
OR she just used her motherly instincts to protect her son at all costs from whatever threat or whatever the future might bring them(in this case I’m still talking about an unseen timeline).
In this case it also means that different timelines cross eachother for obvious reasons>this could mean that time is restoring itself because it is simply NOT correct the way things happen…..a simple word called DESTINY.
I’m going crazy about this, just thinking about this stuff…if I’m wrong all the timelines and T-movies are one big timeloop happening all over and over.
Like when the t101 says in T3>”Judgement Day is inevitable!”

Next issue>>>Cyberdyne Systems and CyberResearchSystems(CRS) and Skynet!:

The (multiple) unaltered timeline ‘should’ orderly be exact the same timeline as for T3, except a few changes(see previous and next explanation).
The timeline for T1 has been changed by the sending of Reese, that's all.
The timeline for T2 got an acceleration from the already altered T1-timeline>>>Terminator remains laying in the Cyberdyne Industrial Machines-factory.
The timeline for T3 has only minor differences, but isn’t changed dramatically(timeleap-wise).

Explanation;
CyberdyneSystems(Miles Bennet Dyson/Civil branch) and CyberResearchSystems(Robert Brewster/Military branch), where already part of the Government>Defense.
They would have proceeded with their ideas normally taking the unseen timeline as a point of view, but they didn’t as we figure out throughout the three movies.
It could have been that CyberResearch was a far better and advanced corporation(perhaps already working on something like Skynet) at the time of T1, but they just let their sister-corporation develop it for them(to cease control of it when finished) which could have been done post-1984.
Don’t forget that both Cyber-corporations were inventing revolutionary things(think technology), but Cyberdyne accelerated when they got the 1984terminator-remains.
Put it in the hands of a good scientist(Dyson and his team) and technology takes a big leap forward(see T2).
As Reese explained in T1 that CyberdyneSystems developed the Skynet technology for the Government/Defense(to which CyberResearch is directly linked…if I may guess).
When Cyberdyne was destroyed during the events of T2 all development was rerouted to CyberResearch>>>Defense was in direct control of Skynet-development.
Perhaps the two corporations would have worked together to finetune Skynet(as we learn that Robert Brewster was boss of Skynet and John would have met him before the events of T2>>>as told in T3) from an unchanged-time point of view.
Ok, so eventually CyberdyneSystems gets destroyed(the Cyberdyne Building, the chip, the arm, Dyson’s work and back-ups) as we witnessed, taking us almost back to the “original” timeline and thus the T3-timeline(except a few minor changes).
Not all Dyson’s back-ups were destroyed as we learn from a deleted T3-scene.
The patterns for most of the technology CRS created were inherited from Cyberdyne Systems>Dyson’s “Lost” Back-up-tapes, which could also explain the difference in the HK-designs from T2 to T3.

John is just destined to meet Brewster(Kate and Robert), to survive and to be in loads of shit as a future Human Resistance leader.

Timeparadox-inconsistencies;

The Skynet database altered with each new future so the t101’s database(of things to come) can NEVER be correct overall(each timeline>each movie).
As each time he tells different dates of Judgement Day and he tells different stories of people involved in Cyberdyne(Skynet) creative history, which ofcourse is also very logically correct for each timeline.
This one also goes for Reese’s knowledge of the past/future timesense.
With each changing of timelines all knowledge of history(past and future) changes cumulative as it should.
T3 is the most recently changed timeline and most reliable as for database-knowledge.
“No fate” gets new meaning if you take my explanation as a point of view>As John said at the end of T3 that he’ll never stop fighting(he’ll never stop timetravelling)!

The timeparadox gets changed every time over and over which means 10 timelines from now everything we know can be totally different.
Still….This one is true>John WILL be the LEADER of the Human Resistance against Skynet and the Machines. He WILL send Reese…………………………………………………

Reply reply reply......please, bitte, por favor, alstublieft.......where is everybody??????

The first movie is a casual loop. Reese is always the father. He always has been and always will be. The future is set. The Terminator always fails. The future is caused by trying to change it.

I'm going to take us through the timeline of the Terminator movies and try to explain what should happen as we go as best I can. I'm not going to do much research (probably just Wikipedia) for ages or years, so just bear with me. Spoilers below.

1) Sarah Connor is born. She grows up, meets a man, may or may not marry him, they have intercourse in which John Connor is conceived and the man dies or leaves. John is born, he grows up, Skynet is created at some point and become self-aware, and Skynet begins Judgement Day. John and some other humans survive and start a resistance to the machines with John as their leader. On the brink of defeat, the machines send the terminator back to 1984 to kill Sarah Conner.
1a) The terminator tracks her down and kills her. This causes John to never exist. He never becomes the leader of the resistance and Skynet never has reason to send the terminator back to kill Sarah. Therefore, the timeline enters a loop, creates a paradox, and the universe explodes. Luckily, this doesn't happen because:
1b) The resistance finds out about this and John sends Kyle Reese with a picture of Sarah back to protect her. He succeeds and the terminator is destroyed before it can kill Sarah. However, Kyle is killed as well and is unable to affect the timeline or the future. This restores the timeline, although Sarah now knows about the future and begins recording advice for John. Meanwhile the picture Kyle had of her is taken of her and given to her. This should be the normal timeline. However, 2 things affect it:
1c) Parts of the crushed terminator are found and CyberDyne is created earlier than normal. The only way this can avoid a paradoxical loop that destroys the universe is if Judgement Day occurs, John survives, becomes the leader of the resistance, and the terminator and Kyle are sent back to the exact same seconds in 1984 as they were in the original timeline. And
1d) During a night of passion, Sarah and Kyle have intercourse and John is conceived. This can lead to two new timelines:
1d1) John is now a different person, with different personality traits. This can cause him to be in a different location for Judgement Day and is killed in the explosions or he fails to become the leader of the resistance, thereby removing him as a target for Skynet to eliminate, so they don't send the terminator back in time to kill Sarah, which begins a paradoxical loop that destroys the universe.
1d2) John is now a different person, with different personality traits. However, Sarah trains him well, he survives Judgement Day and become the leader of the resistance. Skynet and future John send the terminator and Kyle back to the same exact seconds in 1984 as they did in timeline 1. Therefore this is the new timeline that continues the Terminator timeline for the sequels.

2) John Connor, son of Sarah and Kyle, survives Judgement Day, becomes leader of the resistance, and leads them to victory over the machines.
2a) Skynet sends the T-1000 back to 1995 to kill John. It succeeds. He never becomes the leader of the resistance and Skynet never has reason to send the terminator back to kill Sarah (or the T-1000 back to kill John). Therefore, the timeline enters a loop, creates a paradox, and the universe explodes. Luckily, this doesn't happen because:
2b) Future John sends the T-800 back to protect John. He succeeds, though both terminators are destroyed. Therefore the future continues as it should, however,
2c) John, Sarah, and the T-800 destroy CyberDyne and Miles Dyson dies. They also incinerate the terminator pieces from T1. This delays Judgement Day from 1997 to 2004. This can result in two scenarios:
2c1) These 7 years affect John, in which Sarah has died from leukemia, and he dies during Judgement Day or does not become the leader of the resistance. Therefore Skynet never has reason to send the terminator back to kill John, the timeline enters a loop, creates a paradox, and the universe explodes. This can only be avoided if:
2c2) Although 7 years later, John becomes the leader of the resistance and Skynet and future John send all terminators and Kyle back to the same exact seconds as they originally did. Therefore this is the new timeline that continues the Terminator timeline for the sequels.

3) John survives Judgement Day, becomes leader of the resistance, and leads them to victory over the machines.
3a) Since, in 2004, John has been living off the grid, Skynet cannot locate him, so it sends the T-X back to kill his future lieutenants.
3a1) It not only kills them, but locates John and kills him as well. He never becomes the leader of the resistance and Skynet never has reason to send the terminator back to kill Sarah (or the T-1000 or the T-X back to kill John). Therefore, the timeline enters a loop, creates a paradox, and the universe explodes.
3a2) It only succeeds in killing his lieutenants. This causes either:
3a2a) John to hire new lieutenants who are inadequate and they lose the war. Skynet never has reason to send the terminator back to kill Sarah (or the T-1000 or the T-X back to kill John). Therefore, the timeline enters a loop, creates a paradox, and the universe explodes.
3a2b) John to hire new lieutenants who are just as capable as the previous lieutenants, and they are on their way to defeating the machines, which causes Skynet to send the terminators back to kill John/Sarah/lieutenants. However, Skynet and John need to send all terminators and Kyle back to the exact seconds from previous timelines for this to work.
3b) Similar to timeline 3a2b, however the T-850 is sent back to protect Kate and John, though other lieutenants are killed by the T-X. (Therefore, look at timelines 3a2a and 3a2b to see what the death of these lieutenants means for the future.) It succeeds, however Judgement Day still occurs. Kate and John survive and live to become the resistance leaders. Skynet and John will need to send all terminators and Kyle back to the exact seconds from previous timelines for this to work.

4) John and Kate lead the resistance post-Judgement Day. Terminator Salvation does not have any time travel and takes place before the time-travel machine is used. However, John, Kate, and Kyle all have to survive (which is implied as the universe hasn't exploded from a paradox) in order for the previous movies to occur.

Now that I have explained about all four movies and my brain is sufficiently hurting from all of this 4th dimension thinking, I do want to state some flaws that are evident to me:
1) The fact that all terminators and Kyle are all sent back to the exact same moments from each possible timeline. (At least in Back to the Future the dates were inputted into the time circuits, so it is conceivable that it had some sort of memory that allowed Old Biff to travel to the same date the lightning struck the clock tower. BTW, though I've thought in depth about the BTTF trilogy, I can't really come up with any flaws in their time travel timelines, except for that Doc was able to make a steam-powered, time-traveling flying locomotive that worked better than the DeLorean.) So how did potentially 7 different iterations of Skynet from 3 potentially different years send the original terminator back to the exact same second in 1984 (and same locations) on its mission to kill Sarah? And even if you want to give the reason that Skynet has computer efficiency that allowed it to somehow accomplish this, how did John accomplish the same task with Kyle. What if Kyle arrived a day late and Sarah was already dead. What if Kyle arrived in the middle of a freeway and was struck and killed by a car, thereby allowing the terminator easy access to Sarah?
2) Everything above is subjective to what we know from the series. We don't know what effect the death of John's lieutenants and Kate's dad have on the future. We don't even know the effect of John's death would have on the future. It's possible if Sarah was killed (let's say by a car while crossing the street) that some Everyday Joe would rise to the occasion after Judgement Day and lead the human resistance to victory, thus making Skynet target him and his mother instead.
3) While Kyle and Sarah were having intercourse, Kyle's memories of John should have changed as, since John is now composed of Kyle's DNA, his personality and physicality should have been different.
4) Also, why doesn't Skynet learn? By T3, I would think it would have figured out: send the T-X through the portal, than destroy the machine before Kate can take possession of it and send the T-850 back to protect her and John.

I hope this clears up some of the confusion and I hope I did not offend anyone with all of my exploding universes (which I got from BTTF 2). I am also sure that I failed to think of some scenarios or other aspects of the series. I do believe this could have been all avoided if:
1) Kyle wasn't John's father,
2) The original terminator was crushed to dust and no parts were found, and
3) John and Kate's future lieutenants were not killed.

I also took a few of my ideas from the movie Looper, which I believe, though it was a good movie, had many time travel flaws and the universe should have exploded at the end.

If you have any comments on what I've written, please leave them. I would be happy to read them and even comment back to discuss the movies some more.

Thanks for reading this really long-winded explanation. If only I thought this much about important matters, such as school and work.