Darth Maul's fatal mistake?

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Rogue Jedi
ok...part of a jedi or sith's powers are being able to sense danger, any immediate threat to them, right? in ep 2, why didnt darth maul sense that obiwan was about to spring up, flip, call quigons lightsaber to him, and bisect him?

finti
probably the same reason QGJ didnt see the move Maul made before getting runthrough. You cant predict the future "always in motion the future is"

yerssot
and if you have this "spiderman danger sense" it would go like crazy already because you are already facing your foe

Ushgarak
Yes, Maul would have known there was always danger from a not-dead opponent. And his arrogance was most likely blinding him, too.

finti
sure was

Capt_Fantastic
his overconfidence was his weakness

yerssot
something more and more common amongst evil sith wink

SpikeSpiegel
Probably as he was dead in ep 2

Ushgarak
Well spotted that man...

finti
yeah

Rogue Jedi
sorry about the typo....EPISODE 1, BETTER????? and i agree with ush, maul was too busy gloating to notice anything out of the ordinary.

Lyn
This might be a little off the topic RJ but I just wondered, in reference to Jedi/Sith being able to sense things...why, in Ep2 when Obi-Wan is sneaking around on Geonosis, doesn't Dooku sense him?? I mean he's RIGHT there...I don't get it huh

finti
they just made it that way, or else he would have senced Mace sneaking up on them in hte arena as well.

Lyn
Oh yeah, oh...ok, oops embarrasment
Thanx finti thumb up

Rogue Jedi
but both times dooku was preoccupied with several people.....

finti
so was Vader in the hangar of DS in ANH

Dexx
yeah, overconfidence was his man flaw

even if he would have seen it, there was nothing he could do. He would have been dead EVENTUALLY. maul was simply the better dueler.

Rogue Jedi
but vader was occupied with only one person, obi wan.......dooku had a bit more on his plate.

finti
Vader had just the as many around him as Dooku had when Mace snook up on them so............

Rogue Jedi
there were stormtroopers there, yes..but his attention was on obiwan.....

finti
Vader was talking to an officer, while Dooku was watching what happen on hte arena

Rogue Jedi
depends on what part of ep 6 you are talking about.....

finti
nobody was talking about Ep VI,



he was in the hanger one time and one time only. Just after the capture of Millenium Falcon

Rogue Jedi
well, he wasnt IN the hangar when he fought obiwan, but he was right there.

SimK68
Ive been talking about all subjects here before you were born.

Tevesh
also, vader (I believe) is much more powerful than dooku was, so it makes sense that while vader was occupied, he would still be able to sense obi wan...especially since he hadn't sensed any jedi i many many years, seeing as how they were all dead. sensing a jedi in the days of the old republic would have been a bit more common and because of that, it may have slipped dooku's attention. then the added fact that he was preoccupied planning a rebellion would make it harder

mephistodesigns
The Jedi have all kinds of skills to cloak there presence, like pulling the Force in, he could have even been blocking Dooku's senses. With Dooku thinking the Jedi wouldn't find out about his whereabouts so quickly, he might not have been even remotely tuned into his surroundings (again, Sith overconfidence). Also, you don't just sense something if you're not even remotely looking for it, on top of that Dooku had never even met Kenobi.
"Its a shame our paths have not crossed before. Qui-gon always spoke very highly of you".
So his energy signature in the Force is foreign to Dooku, and Obi-wan was obviously cloaking his presence. Its apparently one of his strong points as he meandered (almost in plain sight) through the Death Star in ANH without any trouble, even making the Stormtroopers hear that noise so that he could get away from the tractor beam generator.
Vader sensed Obi-wan because he has an extremely strong bond with Obi-wan. His energy signature was well known to his senses. And he's the Chosen One big grin which excuses any of his odd behavior (sarcasm).
As far as Maul is concerned, I think he COULD sense Obi-wan was about to do SOMETHING, he just didn't know what. Watch the scene closely and you'll see a shot looking up at Maul where he's watching Obi-wan and his brow furrows suddenly like "what are you doing...?" apparently sensing a tremor or manipulation in the surrounding force. Then Obi-wan springs into action. I don't think Maul knew he was capable of doing THAT to him. Man that scene was cool as hell though!

Lyn
Very VERY well put...and yes, that scene was really really cool!! thumb up

finti
hmmm so how did Vader sence Obi Wan in ANH then

mephistodesigns
i said that- they have a bond, they can probably sense a whole lot of things and make a habit of "turning down the volume" so they don't go nuts. But when you trip over a persons energy you've felt before you listen to it. Like say you're somewhere where every person has there own boom box and is playing there own song. each person has a different song. well, its easy to tune out a bunch of stuff you don't know, but then you hear a few notes (wouldn't even have to be a lot) from say, oh...I don't know, the Imperial March for example big grin and you'd go hey I know that, and your ears would focus in on that one song. The Force is another sense and would work in a similar fashion.

Darth Hater
i agree

mephistodesigns
thank you. and we usually do, common ideas among Vader fans? evil face

corey99705
heres the deal. darth maul could have taken them both out. he took out quigon because he saw him as a greater threat. he could have killed obiwan too,but his fatal mistake cost him his life. mauls death was caused by arrogance. maul didnt see obiwan as an opponent worth taking seriously. therefore obiwan saw that he was being underestimated and used that to his advantage.

Darth Revan
Simply put: Maul's death was due to nothing other than his own weakness. Obi-Wan was obviously stronger. Those who can not defend themselves die. Like Malak. Heh heh heh. The fool actually thought he could kill me.

Darth Revan

yerssot
OB1 stronger? he got his butt kicked big time and just won because maul was cocky!

mephistodesigns
yes, but that is what makes Obi-wan the stronger opponent, not just brawn but brain as well. A true fighter doesn't just need weapons. He needs to be smart.

yerssot
that doesn't make him stronger, it just makes him more lucky

mephistodesigns
how is smart lucky? he's smarter, more at peace, and can focus more. Maul's immaturity killed him. Obi-wan exploited it. And now Maul is dead. To even debate who was better seems a complete waste of time when the evidence is right there.

yerssot
if he was smart he used a force run to get back to QGJ and Maul, he didn't so don't think he's smart

obviously you're the one that can't get the evidence straight

Dirty Vader
Maybe he couldnt use a force run, because he'd just pulled himself up and made that big leap onto the platform where Jinn and Maul were fighting.
You cant use to much force power at once, it has to recharge itself into
you and that takes time. Its like catching your breath after an effort.

finti
unconfirmed speculation

yerssot
that's what you make of it

it's never said in the movie which is the official source
and in the novel they don't say "because he's tired he doesn't use force run"

finti
thus the post about it being unconfirmed speculations

yerssot
sorry finti, didn't saw your post messed

yup, unconfirmed speculation smile

mephistodesigns
i can't get my facts straight huh yerssot? well here's one fact I think i've got pretty well understood, now, correct me if i'm wrong but Kenobi did cut Maul in half right? I got that part right didn't I? Okay, so going by whats on film, Kenobi sorta won that fight, which means he obviously was doing something better than Maul. So no matter how much you want to pump maul up in coolness, Obi-wan Kenobi cut his ***** ass in half. Badda bing. Kenobi's the winner. Kenobi fought better. Kenobi was thus stronger.

finti
you must consider that Maul fought against two though

mephistodesigns
so what? do you want him to win or something? he seemed just as energetic after dispensing with qui-gon as he did at the beginning. Obi-wan is very powerful.

Ushgarak
Right, first of all, sword fighting is like a tennis match- best person does not always win.

Secondly, Obi-Wan DIDN'T Force Run through the gates, and I think we can safely assume he WOULD have if he COULD, so there must be good reason for him not doing so- which could be for many reasons. Some have suggested caution, though I think that with a Jedi's timing and that Maul and QGJ wewre some way away from the entrance by then AND that Obi-Wan did not seem the cautious type, I am more inclinded to believe that the huge jump he had just made had taken it out of him. Yes, we have no definitive idea on this at all. But I find the idea that there is a finite 'force pool' he had exhausted not at all objectionable.

Third, despite my first sentence, Maul was clearly the better fighter, when you study his moves. Obi-Wan had his moments but Maul planned that fight well. Obi-Wan made all kind of errors.

But better straight FIGHTER does not necessarily make you better WARRIOR, or all-around solider, or however you might want to put it. Maul's arrogance impaired his efficiency, and he died for it. That could easily make out Obi-Wan to be superior in many ways, even though Maul was the better straight swordfighter.

As Obi-Wan himself puts it, "In my experience there is no such thing as luck..."

yerssot
So, because OB1 won, that makes him better?
pay better attention to how OB1 fights! He fights rash and totally apprentice-like! if you call THAT being better then Maul ...

ie: He jumps to Maul who's on a bridge-thing, QGJ just jumps normal, OB1 has to make a salta, making him very vunerable when he lands
or: he runs before QGJ while fighting Maul, if his master doesn't pay attention he could have cut him in two

want more?

Darth Revan
Kay here's what I think: If Maul had been stronger, he would have not got chopped in half. If he had been a true Sith, he would have not let his arrogence blind him and he would have killed Obi-Wan. There was no reason for him to let Obi-Wan just hang there. There is another thread where somebody mentioned that overconfidence is sort of a running theme in Star Wars. All too true. Your strength as a jedi or a Sith is not measured in fighting ability alone.

finti
it seems like arrogance is a part of the sith thing

mephistodesigns
yerssot-well apparently Maul sucks if Obi-wan was fighting how you call "appretice like" and STILL LOST LIKE A LITTLE B****! you proved my point. thanks, i didn't really want to put anymore effort into this and that just sealed the deal for me.

Finiti- Definetly. It was Palpatines downfall too.

yerssot
I just proved what finti said: arrogance is what took him down, and NOT obi-wans fighting style!
if you can't see that, you have to see the movie again!

mephistodesigns
YOU said look at how Obi-wan fights, after posting a direct quote to my post. You were clearly addressing me. You brought up his fighting style. And then proved my point by saying that Obi-wan fought like and apprentice, if he did, and still won, then Maul did something wrong, either in fighting or thinking, and a fault in either category would make him lose to Obi-wan, who obviously did not share that fault, thus making him superior as he won. I don't need to watch it again. I know it shot for shot line for line. THE FACT REMAINS: MAUL LOST, OBI-WAN was triumphant. BAM! that's all folks!

yerssot
well, that OB1 won and Maul didn't is obvious yes roll eyes (sarcastic)

it's you who claim it's because ob1 was so good which clearly he wasn't!

Dirty Vader
Obi-Wan is a simple jedi padawan, one of many in the republic. He hadnt
been prepared to fight the sith, because their existance was not yet known

On the other hand Darth Maul is an apprentice one of one in the galaxy. Which means that in order to launch their attack the Sith had to be prepared, their could be no mistake. Maul was prepared in the ways of the sith in order to crush the jedi, he was the first of the reborned sith:
he had to be better than the jedi.

But he died nearly as soon as he appeared and was killed by an apprentice who was not prepard to battle Sith unlike he was (prepared
to battle jedi).

And even better, if Obi-Wan won because he wanted to revenge Qui-Gonn, then it prooves that he was better than Maul.
Because anger, hate and revenge are the Sith ways which are constantly felt by Maul. Therefore Obi-Wan beat Maul
at his own game.

yerssot
he shouldn't fight with anger and such in the first place!
"There is no anger, there is peace"

and he won because he was lucky

Vincent Rendar
Obi-Wan one the battle because he was able to see what Maul was not able to see. True Maul had the whole thing planned, but he obviously under estimated the young padawan. Obi-wan saw he was facing a great warrior and used, although sloppy, didnt hold anythign back out of arrogance.

There is a form of jedi combat called form VII, where a jedi uses their emotions to fuel their fighting abiliy. I think Obi-Wan tapped into this form (Only used by Master Windu). Obi Wan should have lost but Maul signed his own death certificate when he underestimated arguably what was to become one of th the most powerful jedi in the galaxy.

finti
arrogance lost it for Maul

Darth Jello
I have to agree that maul wasn't that strong and is probably the weakest sith in the movies. To support this, consider why maul never used force lightning (vader didn't either, but he has an excuse, it would interfere with his cybernetics)

Dirty Vader
and he won because he was lucky by yerssot

You forget that he said 20 years later "In my experince there's no such thing as luck" big grin

yerssot
he wanted to make everyone think he had everything under control wink

no, what I think he means, is that there is no luck because the Force guides him and the future

Dirty Vader
So maybe the force guided him to victory against Maul. I hope not
though, otherwise that would realy suck. People should be able to make
there own future.
Luke says in the Courtship of Princess Leia to Isolder that the future is not written; we make it for ourselves.

yerssot
yeah, "always in motion the future is"
but I ment, OB1 and not QGJ training Anakin was perhaps part of the prophecy?

Dirty Vader
So Darth Maul killing Qui Gonn and then Obi-Wan killing Maul was written
in the prophecy so that there would be no-one else but Obi-Wan who would train Anakin (Thats why Qui-Gonn died) and no-one to get in the way(Maul if he had killed Obi-Wann). Hence, Darth Maul was born to kill Qui Gonn so that he wouldnt train Anakin.

So there's probably not much point in debating who's the best between
Maul and Obi-Wan since the prophecy decided who would be killed, not
their abilities.

That's why I hate the idea of a prophecy in star wars.

yerssot
nonono, it's just that the prophecy is about someone or something will bring balance to the force, and I doubt that if Anakin got trained by QGJ he would have gone bad and turned to Darth Vader with ultimately redeeming himself

Dirty Vader
Yep Qui-Gonn would of made a better job. Though you cant blame Obi-Wan, since he turned into a Jedi Master just after having been a padawn
recently himself.

But if Dooku's assumption of Qui-Gonn having joined him if he was still alive was correct then there wouldnt be much of a change in Anakin's
future either.

That's it! If Qui-Gonn had joined Dooku, he would of joined the dark side
and inevitably Anakin would of also.

So the prophecy doesent decide the Qui-Gonn/Obi/Maul fight, it only decides that Anakin would bring balance by turning to the dark side which is inevitable. That is if Dooku's assumption is correct.


Well.....maybe I'm completely out of subject, you tell me.

yerssot
Obi-Wan turned into a Jedi Knight, not a Jedi Master

and Dooku talking about Qui-Gonn helping him, you can not be sure it's all true, could very easily be that it was to trick OB1 to the dark side

Dirty Vader
So at about what time did Obi-Wan turn into a Jedi Master?
I'm not sure Dooku's assumption was correct, I said so in the last post.
The sith always use tricks to fool people, I was only stating my comment in the context where Dooku tells the truth.

yerssot
Obi-Wan never turnes into a Jedi Master as far as canon goes up till now
he is refered to as Master as in, he has an apprentice he teaches, not as in the rank of Jedi Master

a good example is when sio bibble says: "What is your plan, master Jedi?" to anakin who's a padawan
it shows that non-jedi don't quite get the ranks of the order

about Dooku:
"Lies! Deceit! (sp)! (something else)! Are his ways now!"

mephistodesigns
it's not on film, but because this apparently needs some sort of answer: You only get the formal title of "Master" by successfully training a padawan to knighthood. that's what it says in the databanks, EU but seems to be consistent with whats on film too so that's as close as we'll get to an answer on that.

Yerssot-I totally agree, Qui-gon would have been a much better influence for Anakin, he'd have given him the room to breathe that Obi-wan doesn't (nothing against him, but I think his being a young trainer makes him a bit overzealous). But the idea that Anakin would have still gone bad needs to be present. Think about it, if Anakin had not turned, he would have been killed in the purge, he can't take Palpatine alone at this stage, with the drain on the lightside and all. Not to mention Palpatine knows what he is, and had he not turned, Palpatine would have made damn sure the Jedi's chosen one was killed so that he could never reach full potential. Anakin's children would have also been killed along with the other Jedi younglings. No one would have been able to stop Palpatine. In Anakin's path, his going to the dark side allows him to live through the purge, his children are hidden both from death and his possible training if he got a hold of them, leaving Luke free to grow and bring his father back to the light, so that he could kill off palpatine. As long as Anakin was Vader, he was able to increase his skills to a point where he could kill Palpatine. It seems to me that, as awful as it was, it was essential for him to become Palpatine's apprentice in order to reach the inevitable outcome.

Rogue Jedi
if a more experienced master had been appointed to train anakin (mace windu, ki adi mundi or even yoda) he might have turned out different. MAYBE.

Darth Jello
Dooku let windu sneak up on him because it was necesary for the war to start. he was calm and even expected windu if you look at his face. and once again, maul was not as good as he seemed. One of the main principles of martial arts and fencing is conservation of movement. Dooku is calm and is able to deflect everything thrown at him with ease and little mobility. maul just flails all over the place. and once again, lightning comes up. If even a wannabee like Assajj Ventress can use force lightning, why couldn't maul?

yerssot
because maul was LETHAL with the sabre and his force-powers suffered the consequences

mephistodesigns
okay, when did ventress bust out lightning? Also, maybe maul doesn't like to use it, he seems very into the warrior honor type BS. But mainly I think GL shows people using it who are meant to be shown as very very powerful opponents. If Maul was any stronger, it would have been harder to believe he was so easily dispatched (from a writer's stand point).

Rogue Jedi
just because maul didnt use lightning doesnt mean he couldnt .

Darth Jello
again, compared to dooku, and vader, his saber technique was not that impressive

mephistodesigns
it was mainly the taking on two at a time with such a bad@$$ looking weapon that made it impressive. But I don't know if I'd agree with it being more impressive than Vader, at least onscreen, because as far as most are concerned, Vader never really fought anybody in the OT. He sorta fought Obi-wan but that wasn't exactly full of fancy moves (but I do chalk that up to it being made in '77 and as such, I cut it some slack). And he certainly wasn't trying to kill Luke, so he's never been at his all. I don't doubt that Vader really fighting would be very impressive. I'd just like to see it. The only time I think he was even remotely trying is in the end of Empire, after Luke's been sucked out the window, he walks into that hall and Vader just bursts from the shadows next to him and nearly split him in two, and then proceeds to knock Luke with blow after blow until taking of his hand. But even then, I don't think he wanted to kill him, I think he just wanted Luke to know that Vader was still something to fear, and that Luke was in fact not doing as well as he'd thought.

finti
He was much more agile than Vader and Dooku, more agressive.

Dirty Vader
True the double- bladedlightsaber made it look impressive. But when Obi-wan cuts it in half, you've got to admit that Maul fought very well with the single bladed lightsaber thats left and did beat Obi-Wan pretty quick.
Maybe Maul didnt use force lightning because he didnt need to or
because he couldnt (after all Dooku used to be a well recognised jedi master so he has more experience).

Ushgarak
Maul was very good indeed.

Vader was clumsy. As GL says, the true fighting styles are in the prequel movies, not the half-hearted styles of the Classic films. Vader's injuries impair him.

Darth Jello
ok, i refer you to clone wars chapter seven, compare Dooku and Assaj ventress. she uses acrobatics, twirls and all sorts of impressive moves, yet dooku counters everything she has with quick, percise and steady movements. That makes him the better fighter. And his experience as a jedi would not have mattered since as far as I know, the jedi consider force lightning a perversion and never use it.

Ushgarak
Oh, Dooku is the MAN, no doubt there!

mephistodesigns
yeah, he sure handled Ventress in that episode, that was sweet. Can't wait to watch Anakin mop her up. Did you see him take out those fighters in chapter 10? Damn that was cool. At least we get a taste of all of this "Anakin's a great pilot" but we never get to see it. That was very cool.

Rogue Jedi
i would have liked to have seen qui gon vs. count dooku.

Darth Jello
dooku would win. a reason why the jedi may not ahve been prepared for someone like maul was several generations of no formal duels. I'm sorry but I don't think those pathetic sith wannabees who call themselves dark jedi are much of a challenge for fully trained jedi

Dirty Vader
Did any of you read the comic where Vader fights Maul?

Darth Jello
no, is it a good infinity? does it match up with the ANH and ESB infinities?

yerssot
those clone wars episodes are rubbish!
I mean, you will never see a Jedi in the movies leviate himself down twenty meters or so!
if they could, Anakin wouldn't have fallen down on Zam's ship!

Dirty Vader
It isnt an infinity it happened just before ANH. Some Dark Force Adepts managed to bring Maul back or re-create him. Vader defeats him and then slaughters all the Dark Force Adepts who were former Jedi of the Old Republic.

yerssot
dark force adepts?
wasn't in the OT nor in the PT up till now, so it's all rubbish,
if you want to discuss EU do that in the appropriate section

Ushgarak
Yup, EU in the EU section please...

mephistodesigns
yerssot-in regards to you Jedi can't levetate 20 feet, ever heard of artistic license? I think 5 minutes forces you to skip someone taking and elevator or the stairs. Lighten the F up man, they're CARTOONS. smile

and that Vader Maul fight was in an issue of Star Wars Tales, which the Darkhorse website describes as being for creators to show their interpretations of Star Wars and isn't to be considered even EU canon. Its just to tell cool stories that don't really have to do with anything. Its on about the same level as SW video games as far as meaning anything. That was just to show a cool what if situation.

finti
still, it doesnt belong in the film forum though

mephistodesigns
oh i agree, I'm just letting him know so he doesn't run around telling people Maul and Vader have fought when its not even EU canon (and most certainly not film canon, but that goes without saying).

Dirty Vader
Hey guys, I know its not canon in both EU and movie standards. Those type of weekly comics are just for pure entertainment only, like those tons of Marvel comics from the seventies that nearly had nothing to do with the star wars saga. As meph said, we were talking about Maul being brilliant, so I thought I'd bring the vader vs maul comic into the discussion and ask if you'd seen it since it would be a great duel if it happened. That's all.

yerssot
of course they're cartoons and compared to the movies, they show the creators didn't look at the movies

Darth Jello
yeah they did, Tartokovsky is a huge fan. besides, I thought that every individual storyboard was scrutinized by Lucas and his people extensively

yerssot
no, just about who gets killed and who doesn't

mephistodesigns
As much as it pains me wink i gotta go with yerssot on this one.

And Dirty Vader- the comics ARE EU canon, just not Tales because Lucasfilm lets people write whatever the hell they want without any checking against other books/comics for continuity. If you look in all the novels and comics concerning the clone wars, they include, in order of time, each comic arc and novel. the comics since Episode 1 have been considered EU canon. Tales is the only exception since then.

Dirty Vader
I meant yes the comics ARE EU canon, but not all of them, like the marvel comics I mentioned. I know that most comics that appear as single issue are then put into graphic novels, like Crimson Empire, Rogue Squadron and such which are highly EU recognised. Just to show you that I'm not trying to clean up for my mistakes or that I am pretending to know, in the last post I said "those type of comics".

I dont think the comic I saw was in Tales though. Did you read it Meph?

Darth Jello
tales are considered infinities, thats why they have the infinities logo on them

mephistodesigns
tales aren't infinities. they were around before infinities started.

Ushgarak
I think we are kinda starrting to vector away from topic here...

Darth Jello
tangents are how we learn. if it weren't for procrastination in high school math, I wouldn't know about the history the byzantine empire

finti
back to Mauls misstake

Ushgarak
Yes, please don't be magnificently irrelevant, DJ.

Rogue Jedi
man...who dug up this old thread?

doctor yoda
i think maul might have sensed obiwan. He didn't see obiwan about to fly up and slice him in half but right before obiwan jumped you see maul's face. By his expression he looked as if he could tell that obiwan was up to something. A second later he flys up and kills him.

LordRevan
darth maul was too busy gloating and being to cokey of his power and his overconfidence lead to his failer and death

eleveninches
YOUR OVERCONFIENCE IS YOUR WEEKNESS

yerssot
nice to know, but could you not post in caps please?

LordRevan
I agree with you he was weak he thought he could kill me also

Lord Revan

finti
guess this thread has met its destiny, closing

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