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Time to open the floodgates.

I pick the middle choice, because as long as it doesn't contradict itself or the movies, the EU is rather useful.

EDIT: Crap! I MEANT to put this in the EU forum...can someone move it?

NOT by a long shot!

Ok, none of the choices on the poll reflect my opinion so here it is. The EU is canon as long as it is not contradicted by the movies and is WELL WRITTEN AND CHARACTERIZES CHARACTERS ACCURATLY. I can not tell you how much I hate boba fett's characterization in the novels. so off what I have read-all prequal era stuff is cannon, truce at bakura, and shadows of the empire are canon, star wars republic and empire are cannon, the thrawn quintology is cannon. jedi vs. sith and all events surrounding the sith war are cannon. everything else is pure, tightly coiled crap

Fair enough...great point.
I'm ok with the EU stuff as long as it doesn't screw the movies around. I mean, I love reading about Leia & Han and their family, and Mara Jade too but stuff like...Chewie dying...NO WAY!! That just ruins it for me.

Truce at Bakura is good...but a lot of stuff in NJO is better than that. Have you read NJO, or are you just dismissing it without trying? Also, I, Jedi is excellent, as is the Jedi Academy trilogy.

careful how you put it Jello

great comment jello. that's sorta how I look at it too. The same items you listed as being believable and possibly in continuity are the exact ones I consider in. There were so many books written just to sell books its sick. So yes, as a whole, I vote no for the EU being canon. If they went in, took some titles out, made it clear what Lucas considers in and what he doesn't, then I would change my opinion. But as far as what I accept as being where the characters have been and what they've done off screen, Jello, you've llsted a lot of the best. especially the prequel era stuff and Empire & Republic comics.

I agree with Jello mostly, I think that EU should be canon if it doesent contradict the movies. But I think that if the whole of EU should be revised revised after Ep III, before it is declared canon so that everything is well written and realistic because I agree that I didnt like a few things. But then again I didnt like a few things in the prequels.

Jello has forgotten quite a few good EU stories/novels. All the Tales novels are great, x-wing novels and rogue squadron comics. The things that are unrealistic or too much but are still good should remain EU and not disappear into nothingness.

and thats another big problem with the whole EU/Film debating thing, people can pretty much decide for themselves whose vision (which writer's take) on a character best matches the movies, but its not the same for eveyone. What's on film you simply have to accept, the books you can pick and choose, and ignore the crap you don't like. Which might be great to someone else...and the cycle goes on and on and on.

hmm...ok, that actually makes some sense. I'll agree for now.

I don't actually think becoming synonomous with film canon would serve the EU.

I think the only reason the EU has been able to thrive the way it has been it prcisely because it has been given leave to experiment, and the only way in Hell that GL will grant that is if it does not share the same continuity.

The EU has its own canon (from which it excludes things like Splinter of the Mind's Eye and the Infinities products) which is perfectly valid in its own right for people to enjoy- and as we know, some people enjoy that continuity more so than the simple film-based plotline.

The only reason you would want it synonomous with film canon is because of the impression that this would make the EU somehow better, or more accepted. But with millions of people already enjoying it- why worry?

Again...a good point. I suppose I'm just tired of not being able to bring it up without Finti and Yersott (the only two people who do it on these boards) jumping up and down and screaming "NO! THE EU SUCKS! THE EU SUCKS! YOU SUCK FOR LIKING THE EU! THE EU SUCKS!"

man, finti and ush are gonna have a great time with this thread. i voted for the middle choice, by the way.

I never said you did, I only let you know that EU should not be taken as fact if you are speculating about EpIII or discussing the other movies

and EU does have the tendancy to suck

No, the EU has sucky parts, just like any other series. But saying the whole thing sucks just means you haven't read the good stuff.

There's too many inconsistancies within the EU already to make it canon. I love both canon and EU but accept that they're only cousins not immeadiate family to each other.

oh, believe me , VG, I read most of it

So what exactly have you and Finti read?

more than enough

EU is excellent. sure, it has some flaws, but it is still very good. The hand of thrwan trilogy? excellent. Are you trying to tell me that it wasnt cool when it explained the noghri, how vader manipulated them, how they worshipped him, and how they came to be leia's bodyguards, calling her "lady vader?"

one of the good parts yes

there were a few good consitant writers but up until the PT and Lucasfilm more closely monitoring plots and trying to make them better, a lot of it did suck. There were so many stand alone books that were just boring. You knew no one would die. And I got really tired of the constant diplomatic crap. "waugh! he parked in my executive hanger, I'm gonna start a war". And the remnant post Thrawn was barely a threat. now the NJO has some friggin' drama and I personally really like it. I don't know if its anywhere close to what Lucas would do, but it certainly makes sense within the characters and who they are. But I'm sure other people hate them. I like a lot of the prequel era books. They are basically logically written to lead into or out of a movie plot in pretty much the only logical way. And they're pretty well written. But somebody said earlier that the Films and EU don't need to go together because the EU has so much freedom. I totally agree. I like seeing other peoples takes. Even if I don't agree with it. I just got the new issue of Empire from Darkhorse yesterday and it was a descent story about what happened to Vader immediately after Yavin. So far, Empire (to me) has been very well done as far as having a film feel that fits Lucas' tones and themes and sense of adventure. And as much as I liked this story about Vader, it did seem oddly out of place and didn't really look or feel like anything in the films. And again, that comes down to opinion. So I totally agree that they don't have to go together to be fun. We have the X-Wing series for people into the space battles and ships, NJO and the PT Jedi based novels for the force lovers (like me ) and the comics to chronicle battle for the clone wars and rebellion that don't need to be canon since you know that if it wasn't exactly as it is in these comics, it was probably pretty close so they're fun. They deal with things that don't need to be seen on film, but are still fun ideas to expand on.

what I mean is that just because something like little golden bookTAR WARS: Wicket Takes his first Dump may not contradict the movies, it doesn't mean it should be canon. there are some things that piss people like me off just because of what they are, contradictions aside. especially droids and ewoks and those two disney movies and the holiday special. and some of the EU characters too. I mean, this is the whole reason Lucas books came up with the infinities. If someone wants to write about luke and leia getting married and having 4 fingered hemophiliac kids, now they can!!! maybe sell some advance copies in the bible belt. sometimes yuo just gotta keep the force in the family. (now just imagine me shouting that rant with Jason Lee's voice and all will be as it should be)

Technically speaking the Holiday Special isn't EU, and it is even GL sourced, but GL disavowed it as canon ages back. In fact he would disavow its existence if he could.

What, you mean Chewbacca's family ISN'T named Itchy and Lumpy?

chewy, itchy, lumpy, does that mean puffy's mom was a wookie? let's see there could be poopy, scratchy, meaty, tubby. all wookie names.

Anyway, back on topic, the EU was getting out of hand before it was passed to a new publisher and NJO began. Now it's better, and hopefully will stay that way.

vengeancegod? you watched it too??? I feel sorry for you!

Lucas hates the holding and wants to burn every last bit of it. I've seen it too, it shouldnt be canon or EU canon but its okay for entertainment.
Leia singing at the end was over the top though.

entertainment? well, if you're up to some rediculous scenes

Entertainment because it's hilarious. I used to work at this comic book store, and we would sell bootleg DVDs of it. People would pay like $20 for it because it said "first appearance of Boba Fett" on the box. And then we'd laugh at them as they left for the pain they were about to endure.

Eu stuff is wonderful......er most of it that is...a few of the books were boring me to death there....but for overall...I'd say yes to the canon thing. Esp KOTOR.....great storyline

i believe that the big trilogies that everyone likes should become cannon, like the thrawn trilogy, but some books i cant even consider EU, cyrstal in the minds eye should be(i mean this to the whole world) burnt and the auther totured till be asked for forgiveness for writing a peice of shit.
back on subject courtship of P. Leia and Truce at Bakura are some that shuold be cannon too, their good.
NJO should be given another decade to sink in, some people dont like it but i love it.

if you mean with "in the minds eye" the book "splinter of the minds eye", that book has fallen off the timeline completely

Indeedy so.

To my mind, Julie, the moment KOTOR had 'cortosis-lined swords' that could not be cut by lightsabres, it very firmly planted its feet where it wanted to belong- i.e. the EU continuity, NOT the films.

good i didnt notice and i have stamped the book and its contents out of my brain so i wasnt sure on the title

as for EU becoming canon...I am wary only because certain of the EU stories were just plain awful....or bored me to death ...that sort of thing

This one seems like kind of a no-brainer. Naturally, if a work contradicts itself it shouldn't be admitted into any official grouping. And as for Star Wars specifically, to contradict the movies is futile. There are obvious complaints that can be leveled against the movies, and perfectly good reasons for an author to try to work around those weaknesses. However, much of the enjoyment Star Wars fans get from the EU is the fact that in most cases, the books or comics or games acknowledge each other. In the Star Wars EU, there is no denying that the setting is unified and irrevocably connected. When I read a new EU book, I know there must be hundreds of other adventures happening in other parts of the galaxy, without even reading a single word to reference them. I think the EU should be admitted as official canon, with a few conditions. Firstly, I've never been impressed with the deliberately youth-oriented material. Star Wars should obviously be available to any age group. The movies are universal in their appeal, so I don't think it's necessary to pander to any one group. Admitting Star Wars fiction developed specifically for young children into canon is only slightly more sensible than admitting Star Wars pornography, or a recipe book. Another condition, is that fans must accept it as well. There is little point in admitting a possibly setting- or character-changing piece of fiction that no one actually enjoys into canon. An excellent example of EU material that doesn't violate aspects of the setting that fans enjoy are the NJO books (of which I've read the first four) and much of the prequel era fiction. These only sparsely use characters from the movies, and thus run less of a risk of misrepresenting them.
On the subject of Chewie's death in Vector Prime: I can see how it would upset people, but I think it was important that Chewie die in order to powerfully display the fact that the Yuuzhan Vong are not messing around. They are a serious enemy and it is clear that they *will* make significant gains, from the very first novel. And also, I'm tired of reading:
Chewbacca growled excitedly and flailed his furry arms.
"Yeah, I know buddy, that was a close one," Han responded.
The alternative (translating Wookie) is even worse. I think Chewie dies honorably and his death benefits the entire setting.
There are EU books that should be accepted as canon based solely on their fan support. The X-Wing books, I found to be poorly written and repetitive. I expected much much more from Stackpole. But the X-Wing books are some of the most popular EU books. They have been integrated completely enough into later novels to warrant being part of official canon. Shadows of the Empire, which I found to be predictable and without substance, are beloved by more fans than most of the other EU books. I think this is partly because of the multimedia ad campaign for it, but regardless, fans like it enough to make it canon.
Overall, I think the EU has proven its longevity, fan support, and quality, and has a place in the official canon.

That you should call this a no-brainer is particularlay weird. You cannot 'earn' canon status- it doesn't work like that. No matter how good or bad the EU ever is, that has no bearing on whether it should or should not be canon at all.

Yes. Yes it should

should the EU become cannon... hmmmm... YES YES AND DOUBLE YES!!!!

No. None of it should. Here's the problems:

The games can't be considered canon because they contradict the movies just as much as books. Games like Kotor introduce characters like Sion and Nihilus, which totally contradict the entire midichlorian theory. Then you have the Kotor Jedi Order, which destroys Lucas' depiction of the PT Jedi being in the "Golden Age" of the Jedi. You also have games like the Jedi Knight series. While Luke at this time should be a god, he's weaker than Kyle Katarn (I know this not only through experience, but through game code also). And Jaden Korr is stronger than both while still a padawan.

Then you have cartoons. The Clone Wars miniseries makes the Jedi look like gods, all of them with ridiculous abilities. Obi-Wan has a bit of trouble dealing with one, while Shaak Ti fights 12, without a saber. Then you have Yoda picking up armies of droidekas and throwing Seperatist frigates into each other. You've got Mace Windu punching through durasteel, dodging bullets, and pushing away an entire battalion of SBD's while unarmed and jumping to the peak of a plateau from aprox. 1 mile away.

Then you've also got books. The entire NJO series is ludicrous. Luke gets in 20 years what Yoda couldn't in 800. Jedi that have never been trained for the majority of their life suddenly become better than those that were trained since birth during the "Golden Age." Even with love, emotional attachment, and personal possessions, the NJO still has an extraordinary amount of Jedi still not falling to the Dark Side.

None of the EU should be canon, it not only contradicts the movies, but Lucas himself.

Enough Se7in, everyone is entitled to there opionon, and I will respect that, do to the fact I have no arguments now.

Originally posted by Se7in
No. None of it should. Here's the problems:

The games can't be considered canon because they contradict the movies just as much as books. Games like Kotor introduce characters like Sion and Nihilus, which totally contradict the entire midichlorian theory. Then you have the Kotor Jedi Order, which destroys Lucas' depiction of the PT Jedi being in the "Golden Age" of the Jedi. You also have games like the Jedi Knight series. While Luke at this time should be a god, he's weaker than Kyle Katarn (I know this not only through experience, but through game code also). And Jaden Korr is stronger than both while still a padawan.

Then you have cartoons. The Clone Wars miniseries makes the Jedi look like gods, all of them with ridiculous abilities. Obi-Wan has a bit of trouble dealing with one, while Shaak Ti fights 12, without a saber. Then you have Yoda picking up armies of droidekas and throwing Seperatist frigates into each other. You've got Mace Windu punching through durasteel, dodging bullets, and pushing away an entire battalion of SBD's while unarmed and jumping to the peak of a plateau from aprox. 1 mile away.

Then you've also got books. The entire NJO series is ludicrous. Luke gets in 20 years what Yoda couldn't in 800. Jedi that have never been trained for the majority of their life suddenly become better than those that were trained since birth during the "Golden Age." Even with love, emotional attachment, and personal possessions, the NJO still has an extraordinary amount of Jedi still not falling to the Dark Side.

None of the EU should be canon, it not only contradicts the movies, but Lucas himself.

This is a mindset I'm coming more and more to understand and agree with.

Let's put all SW stories in one bible, and call that canon.
All the other stuff we will then call apokryphal. This is yet another great idea of mine, I will quickly copywrite it tomorrow, in the meanwhile no one steal it, okay?

I say no. There is good EU, but there's also a lot of garbage. I've read nearly all the books and own a good number of them, and I've played a lot of the games. Too much of it is contradictory to the movies or simply ridiculous.

Originally posted by Nactous
Yes. Yes it should LMAO

"says Nactous, a year and a half too late."

Originally posted by Se7in
No. None of it should. Here's the problems:

The games can't be considered canon because they contradict the movies just as much as books. Games like Kotor introduce characters like Sion and Nihilus, which totally contradict the entire midichlorian theory. Then you have the Kotor Jedi Order, which destroys Lucas' depiction of the PT Jedi being in the "Golden Age" of the Jedi. You also have games like the Jedi Knight series. While Luke at this time should be a god, he's weaker than Kyle Katarn (I know this not only through experience, but through game code also). And Jaden Korr is stronger than both while still a padawan.

Then you have cartoons. The Clone Wars miniseries makes the Jedi look like gods, all of them with ridiculous abilities. Obi-Wan has a bit of trouble dealing with one, while Shaak Ti fights 12, without a saber. Then you have Yoda picking up armies of droidekas and throwing Seperatist frigates into each other. You've got Mace Windu punching through durasteel, dodging bullets, and pushing away an entire battalion of SBD's while unarmed and jumping to the peak of a plateau from aprox. 1 mile away.

Then you've also got books. The entire NJO series is ludicrous. Luke gets in 20 years what Yoda couldn't in 800. Jedi that have never been trained for the majority of their life suddenly become better than those that were trained since birth during the "Golden Age." Even with love, emotional attachment, and personal possessions, the NJO still has an extraordinary amount of Jedi still not falling to the Dark Side.

None of the EU should be canon, it not only contradicts the movies, but Lucas himself. My god, this unbelievable true. I feel the exact same way.

And the sad thing is there's more. I haven't even mentioned the comics, which bring up retarded scenarios like Maul returning with mechanical legs and going to kill Luke on Tatooine, but only to be defeated by Obi-Wan. Or the return of Mace Windu with a mechanical arm who "Force Jumped" out of Palpetine's office, landed on a speeder, got fixed up, and hid for a coupld of years, then fights Anakin one-on-one, fair and square and loses.

There's even more problems with the fact that the KOTOR and JK series both don't have a single canonical ending. What further messes it up is they add features to both sides so both sides will be played, creating a confusion over which seems more realistic. It's so confusing, we don't even know the sexes of the Exile and Revan.

You've also got games BASED on the movie that contradict it. Anakin stabbing Dooku, Obi-Wan beating Grievous with a saber strike, Anakin taking the entire Jedi Temple with roughly 20 Clones and 3 dropships, Clones that are faster than Ataru-enhanced Yoda, and Anakin fighting through a wave of Neimodians before slaughtering the Seperatist leaders.

The main reason the EU is so full of plotholes and can't be considered canon is due to organization. Authors of books, writers of comics, developers of games, and artists of the cartoons make their products for shock value. They don't check viable sources (i.e. Lucas and co) to make sure what they are making is even tied in with the series. Most people make these products wanting fans to say "Wow, this is cool," rather than "Wow, this ties in with the series nicely and allows the entire series Lucas has worked for three decades for to make sense."

All EU sources are the reason for the horrible threads like "Ragnos and 70 HK's can take the entire Jedi Temple," or "NJO Luke pwns Ragnos," or even "Yoda beat Sidious."

No, the EU should not be considered canon. Thanks to Tangible God and Janus for agreeing. Somone finally understands me.

only in certain circumstance..though I don';t see what that would do for us crazy fans of the EU already...get more respect?

Oh, its offical, Revans male.

Originally posted by Tangible God
LMAO

"says Nactous, a year and a half too late."
I know, should have been here.

Let's put all the hundred of books into a canon and shoot it TO THE MOON!! AARGH!! ranting

Originally posted by Se7in
And the sad thing is there's more. I haven't even mentioned the comics, which bring up retarded scenarios like Maul returning with mechanical legs and going to kill Luke on Tatooine, but only to be defeated by Obi-Wan. Or the return of Mace Windu with a mechanical arm who "Force Jumped" out of Palpetine's office, landed on a speeder, got fixed up, and hid for a coupld of years, then fights Anakin one-on-one, fair and square and loses.

There's even more problems with the fact that the KOTOR and JK series both don't have a single canonical ending. What further messes it up is they add features to both sides so both sides will be played, creating a confusion over which seems more realistic. It's so confusing, we don't even know the sexes of the Exile and Revan.

You've also got games BASED on the movie that contradict it. Anakin stabbing Dooku, Obi-Wan beating Grievous with a saber strike, Anakin taking the entire Jedi Temple with roughly 20 Clones and 3 dropships, Clones that are faster than Ataru-enhanced Yoda, and Anakin fighting through a wave of Neimodians before slaughtering the Seperatist leaders.

The main reason the EU is so full of plotholes and can't be considered canon is due to organization. Authors of books, writers of comics, developers of games, and artists of the cartoons make their products for shock value. They don't check viable sources (i.e. Lucas and co) to make sure what they are making is even tied in with the series. Most people make these products wanting fans to say "Wow, this is cool," rather than "Wow, this ties in with the series nicely and allows the entire series Lucas has worked for three decades for to make sense."

All EU sources are the reason for the horrible threads like "Ragnos and 70 HK's can take the entire Jedi Temple," or "NJO Luke pwns Ragnos," or even "Yoda beat Sidious."

No, the EU should not be considered canon. Thanks to Tangible God and Janus for agreeing. Somone finally understands me.

'Visionaries' isn't considered EU. It's essentially a collection of fanfics from some of the concept artists and whatnot of Lucasfilms. There's absolutely no canonical value to them. And when did this Mace story come up? I've never even heard of it, although I won't doubt its existence. I'm guessing from Star Wars Tales, in which case, same as above. It has no canonical value; just a story thought up by some bored author who wanted to something with Star Wars.

On the KOTOR and JA points, I wholeheartedly agree. There should be a set gender, species, etc. for the characters involved, if only to lay down a solid basis for a good story. However, this would in certain ways deduct from the fun and replay value of the game, for obvious reasons. Hence why it is done; game producers care little for canon and EU. All they care about is making a good game, and that is, surprisingly enough, where most problems arise.

There is an apparent reason for that, and that is to add a twist to the game, to make it seem like a series of events that follow the movie, but are not bound completely to it. Plus, how well do you think decapacitation would go with a T-rated game?

Again, I totally agree. I mean 'The Crystal Star' and 'Splinter of the Mind's Eye' were beyond ridiculous, as are many other novels, because of the reason said, but also because their authors are just so goddamn stupid.

In a nutshell; I agree with you. But there are several notable EU sources that are very well done, and that I would like to see made canon. (Labyrinth of Evil, The Cestus Deception, the 'Republic' series) But as for the others? Not really. Many videogames in particular completely screw with the plot of the movies. So, as a whole, I wish EU to remain EU. BUt there are certain works that well deserve to be incorporated into the realm of canon.

SE7in's right.

Though some things, like a few games or comics, might not be considered canon, too many people believe them to be and it unofficially becomes canon.

Vitually all of EU contradicts the movie and the original story. The midi-chlorians may be movie but they're a dissapointing blow to the nature of the Force that we, the generation that grew up without them, love. The problem is, they go and make the Force, (coughs), *ahem,*......tangible. Instead of the omnipotent Force, we now have the Force being directly linked organically and biologically to beings.

They tend to be a big problem when looking at the Jedi and the Force, in whole, over the timespan of SW. Too many unresolved arguments over them.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
'Visionaries' isn't considered EU. It's essentially a collection of fanfics from some of the concept artists and whatnot of Lucasfilms. There's absolutely no canonical value to them. And when did this Mace story come up? I've never even heard of it, although I won't doubt its existence. I'm guessing from Star Wars Tales, in which case, same as above. It has no canonical value; just a story thought up by some bored author who wanted to something with Star Wars.

On the KOTOR and JA points, I wholeheartedly agree. There should be a set gender, species, etc. for the characters involved, if only to lay down a solid basis for a good story. However, this would in certain ways deduct from the fun and replay value of the game, for obvious reasons. Hence why it is done; game producers care little for canon and EU. All they care about is making a good game, and that is, surprisingly enough, where most problems arise.

There is an apparent reason for that, and that is to add a twist to the game, to make it seem like a series of events that follow the movie, but are not bound completely to it. Plus, how well do you think decapacitation would go with a T-rated game?

Again, I totally agree. I mean 'The Crystal Star' and 'Splinter of the Mind's Eye' were beyond ridiculous, as are many other novels, because of the reason said, but also because their authors are just so goddamn stupid.

In a nutshell; I agree with you. But there are several notable EU sources that are very well done, and that I would like to see made canon. (Labyrinth of Evil, The Cestus Deception, the 'Republic' series) But as for the others? Not really. Many videogames in particular completely screw with the plot of the movies. So, as a whole, I wish EU to remain EU. BUt there are certain works that well deserve to be incorporated into the realm of canon.

Oh my God, I swear Crystal Star made me drop a few IQ points, it was so horrible....thank god I never read Splinter of the Mind's Eye.

Anyway, Se7in, you've pretty much nailed it, as to why EU should not be canon.

Why do people care if EU becomes canon or not? If you enjoy EU than you enjoy EU end of story. I myself think EU and the OT rock but I think the PT sucks old reused balls. Who gives a damn if its canon or not?

Because, if EU is canon or not could prevent and/or settle 90% of the horrible threads that place certain fighters or armies against others without sufficient information or contradicting sources.

I think the only thing that EU should keep is Luke's Jedi Academy thing.
After that, everybody got lost.(NJO...)

Originally posted by Se7in
Because, if EU is canon or not could prevent and/or settle 90% of the horrible threads that place certain fighters or armies against others without sufficient information or contradicting sources.

This is what I hate about those stupid movie forum people...they think just because its EU it cant be used in an argument.

Originally posted by Veneficus
This is what I hate about those stupid movie forum people...they think just because its EU it cant be used in an argument.

Well, not with any real validity, no it can't, as it's not canon.

Originally posted by Lana
Well, not with any real validity, no it can't, as it's not canon.

Well for instance in the SW versus forum lets say you have a Revan vs Vader thread. More than half the people say Vader could win simply because he was in the movies and you can't a compair a video game character to a solid movie character. That is complete bullshit. From what we know of Revan and the Mandalorian Wars he would waste Vader's ass.

I'll just repeat what I said when this thread began some two years ago.

It is a mistake to think that making EU canon would in some way make it more valid as an artform, or better as a piece of work. As I outlined, the fact that EU was 'cut loose', as it were, from GL's continuity is the factor that gave authors the creative freedom to create many of the stories that they have, and on the assumption that you like these stories then you have to appreciate that they might very well have not existed if EU were tied into the movie continuity.

People must understand that 'canon' does not mean 'better'. It means... well... 'canon'. And specifically, because canon is not a word exclusive to SW films, we mean 'film canon' and the only reason EU gets excluded is NOT because it is considered inferior or contemptible... but simply because when trying to discuss facts behind the films, the EU sources, to all intents and purposes, don't exist. GL does not actually count them as part of his Universe- he sees them as a parallel.

That does not lower the value of EU in any way at all. It simply makes it different. And of course, the EU has its OWN canon, consisting of all the books and so forth, that has its own rules (Infinities not in, Splinter not in, etc.), and that also happens, of course, to include the films as well (odd as that may sound, it is of course entirely obvious that it would have to).

So if you want to disucss who is better than whom in regards to GL's film universe, then of course you can't use EU sources becaue the creative mind behind that Universe doesn't count them.

But if you want to argue it more broadly, you could always argue it based on the EU universe instead, which is by no means 'less important', and even if it was, what does it matter? In the EU forum you are among fellow fans for that kind of thing.

To make EU 'canon' would be to destroy its own seperate universe and merge it with GL's film universe. I honestly think that would do the franchises more harm than good.

Originally posted by Veneficus
...

Signature: Niet bang ben van me omdat ik... bang ben van me kwaad ben omdat ik u zal doden.

Translation: Not afraid of me because I.. Afraid of me angry am because I shall kill you.

What the hell are you trying to say??

Originally posted by overlord
Signature: Niet bang ben van me omdat ik... bang ben van me kwaad ben omdat ik u zal doden.

Translation: Not afraid of me because I.. Afraid of me angry am because I shall kill you.

What the hell are you trying to say??

Oops...I thought that said "Do not fear me because I and evil...fear me because I will kill you.

My Dutch is very limited as with my German.

If you meant "Do not fear me because I am evil.. Fear me because I will kill you." then here is the translation to Dutch: "Wees niet bang omdat ik het kwaad ben.. Wees bang omdat ik je zal vermoorden."

I had to change the sentense formulation a bit, of course.. Because it is almost impossible to just translate and hope you get a logical sentense in any language. Anyway, glad to be of service..

Originally posted by overlord
If you meant "Do not fear me because I am evil.. Fear me because I will kill you." then here is the translation to Dutch: "Wees niet bang omdat ik het kwaad ben.. Wees bang omdat ik je zal vermoorden."

I had to change the sentense formulation a bit, of course.. Because it is almost impossible to just translate and hope you get a logical sentense in any language. Anyway, glad to be of service..

Thanks.

Well Ush is right.

Hahaha.. Canon.. When do we get to know wich books are Apokryphal and how long do we have to wait before there is a bible about Star Wars?
I can't wait.

Originally posted by Tangible God
Well Ush is right.

Yeap....

It truly depends on certian things like does it contradict the movies, and how. Like I wouldn't consider Star Wars Galaxys Canon, but Kotor, The books, things like that I DO consider canon.

As has been mentioned rather a lot before, canon is not a matter of personal opinion, it is a matter of set fact.

Ush, I hate to point this out, but you've gone over it before and in detail and no one ever gets it. I mean, some people won't accept the evident no matter how much you offer it to them.

Movies are entirely separate from the alternate universe of EU. Even I've come to realize how badly this was driven home.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
I'll just repeat what I said when this thread began some two years ago.

It is a mistake to think that making EU canon would in some way make it more valid as an artform, or better as a piece of work. As I outlined, the fact that EU was 'cut loose', as it were, from GL's continuity is the factor that gave authors the creative freedom to create many of the stories that they have, and on the assumption that you like these stories then you have to appreciate that they might very well have not existed if EU were tied into the movie continuity.

People must understand that 'canon' does not mean 'better'. It means... well... 'canon'. And specifically, because canon is not a word exclusive to SW films, we mean 'film canon' and the only reason EU gets excluded is NOT because it is considered inferior or contemptible... but simply because when trying to discuss facts behind the films, the EU sources, to all intents and purposes, don't exist. GL does not actually count them as part of his Universe- he sees them as a parallel.

That does not lower the value of EU in any way at all. It simply makes it different. And of course, the EU has its OWN canon, consisting of all the books and so forth, that has its own rules (Infinities not in, Splinter not in, etc.), and that also happens, of course, to include the films as well (odd as that may sound, it is of course entirely obvious that it would have to).

So if you want to disucss who is better than whom in regards to GL's film universe, then of course you can't use EU sources becaue the creative mind behind that Universe doesn't count them.

But if you want to argue it more broadly, you could always argue it based on the EU universe instead, which is by no means 'less important', and even if it was, what does it matter? In the EU forum you are among fellow fans for that kind of thing.

To make EU 'canon' would be to destroy its own seperate universe and merge it with GL's film universe. I honestly think that would do the franchises more harm than good.
I have said it before and say it again. EU, like you say Ush, has its own personal timeline and series, like the KotOR, or Jedi Knight, its like a series, with in a series,and in away I agree with you that it should stay the way it is. But I will repeat, if it has Star Wars, it is Star Wars, canonability doesnt matter to me.

Nac has a good point... but I wouldn't touch any of that fan crap. You know the "Unnoficial" stories, the fan stories. Which aren't even EU.

If Lucas approves it, than it is Star Wars; no matter how sad!

Remember; there is always a possibility of more fims!

(Lucas will have to be dead though)

The movie novelizations are not considered canon for the most part correct? I have heard people refer to them as EU. The novelization of ANH would have to be canon though correct ,since it is authored by Lucas?

The novels are 'semi' canon as they directly derive from GL's work.

But for absolutely definite the novels are NOT EU. Remember, the SW output isn't split into 'EU/Non-canon' and 'Non-EU/canon'. It doesn't work like that. EU is a name given to the series of products that contain stories about the Star Wars Galaxy that have nothing to do with GL. It so happens that EU has been declared non-canon, but the two are not identical. But regardless of their canon status or not, the novels are NOT part of the EU output.

In any case, ANH wasn't written by George Lucas, it was Alan Dean Foster.

My bad ,it has George Lucas written as the author on the copy that I have. I do notice inconsistancies in the novelizations between them and the movies ,so I can see why they are not considered interchangable. I agree that canon really doesn't matter though ,except for debates like this. If it makes you happy to consider one part of a mythical universe more valid than another who am I to say that you are right or wrong? I personally look at it as one great story arc from the first book ,to the movies ,to the last book that I have read. There are parts that I have disregarded (Splinter) that simply don't fit ,but I enjoy them all ,for the most part.

Originally posted by Fierce Deity
Nac has a good point... but I wouldn't touch any of that fan crap. You know the "Unnoficial" stories, the fan stories. Which aren't even EU.
What, are you remembering what I have been doing.

The problem with the EU is that it can not only contradict the movies and other EU sources (by the way: If two EU sources contradict each other - which one should be canon ?) it can also contradict Lucas own opinion about certain things not directly mentioned in the movies. And since Lucas is always developing ideas about the "mythology" he created further he sometimes even contradicts his own older statements.

Therefore it's simply impossible to create something like a "canon" EU. That would only be possible if Lucas stops developing his own ideas about SW and starts writing EU material on his own (which would be automatically "canon" because being Lucas' own work) - but that will most likely never happen.