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I know that when people think of Plot Induced Stupidity, this is the textbook example. It's the legendary, prototypical fight that proves that sometimes...writers just get it completely wrong.

But is it?

Firelord isn't actually the first or only herald-level being Spider-Man has gotten the best of, or who have proven unable to defeat him. Let's look at some other victims:

Gravitron
Titania
Hulk
Magneto
Juggernaut
Silver Surfer
Adam Warlock
The X-Men
The Fantastic Four
Thanos
Eric Masterson Thor
Beta Ray Bill
Loki

So...what is it about Spider-Man? And if a character's power is best measured by his victories...does a victims list like this make Spider-Man one of the most effective heroes in comicdom?

Let's cast a blind eye to this being Spider-Man. Look at the victory list above. Based on that list alone, could this mystery character beat Firelord?

What the?

Juggernaut trapped in cement? So much for the foward moving power of Cyttorak.

The Fantastic Four? You mean where they're all like "hey stop we wanna talk to you" and he's running around them?

The X-men? I hope you're not talking secret wars when they were depowered.

Just he fact that you put these in makes me question the rest. He probably had cosmic powers for a couple more.

Juggernaut was trapped in cement, but he couldn't get out for some reason. Spider-Man still beat him. The FF started fighting him fairly quickly and it didn't make much difference - they lost. The X-men weren't depowered in the Secret Wars - what makes you say that? And he didn't have cosmic powers for any of the fights I listed.

My point is that it appears PIS is a savior to a point - but when you have a list this extensive, isn't there more to it than that? Or is it really just chronic PIS. Could someone with this resume believably beat Firelord?

Juggernaut couldn't move for some reason, I guess Class 100 characters can't match the mighty power of drying cement.

If you really think the FF were fighting, then I suggest you read that book again. Guys take on Celestials but all of a sudden friendly neighborhood Spiderman is too much for them.

X-men not depowered? I guess that's why Nightcrawler just teleported right out of the webbin... oh no wait he didn't. I'm sure there's more examples of crap with that one I can't remember right now.

It's not even PIS in some cases, It's just plain bad. Like the writers have never been to school or something or were totally baked.

To answer you question, sure someone with that resume could beat Firelord, the only problem is that the resume is so questionable.

The fact that Nightcrawler didn't teleport out of the webbing isn't because he was de-powered - he just...didn't. For the same reason why Flash gets hit by boomerangs and Superman gets hit by people who don't move a fraction of his speed. People make tactical errors all the time. The fact remains, it's canon. Ditto with Juggernaut being trapped, or FF suddenly being uncoordinated and amateurish. Or any of the other characters here losing or failing to win in various ways.

I understand what you're saying, and I'm not disagreeing with it, either. People can find ways of explaining away every single one of these fights - "so and so wasn't really trying" "so and so underestimated him" "so and so was de-powered", but when it happens THAT often, with THAT many people...some of the most powerful in comics, tasting defeat against one character, what's going on?

Why didn't Juggernaut do the "flex of power!" like he did when he was dipped into molten steel?
He let it dry and just flexed his muscles and the steel shattered off of him.

But...no, Spiderman can't beat firelord.

Also, add to your list the time when he somehow K.O'd Strange with a pot.

Hey Spiderman vs. Firelord is all good as long as you don't forget to mention that Firelord purposefully let his flames down, got crushed by a building and blown up.

I just wonder what factors went into those other fights.

And what's so hard to beleive about chronic stupidity. Are we forgetting that we're talking about marvel. Maximum Clonage anyone? Hero's Reborn anyone? Onslaugth anyone?

Can Spider-Man beat anyone on this list (we'll add Strange to that...didn't know about that one. What happened? lol)? If he can't...do we then disregard these fights? ALL of them? Based on what? Is that fair?

All I'm saying is tell the whole damn story. Everyone bitches as soon as anyone says Batman beat Superman. Don't forget the kryptonite and the throwing of Lois off a building and all that other stuff and it's all good though. But all of sudden Spidey beating Firelord is all good without any explanation?

Originally posted by MERCILOUS
Hey Spiderman vs. Firelord is all good as long as you don't forget to mention that Firelord purposefully let his flames down, got crushed by a building and blown up.

I just wonder what factors went into those other fights.

And what's so hard to beleive about chronic stupidity. Are we forgetting that we're talking about marvel. Maximum Clonage anyone? Hero's Reborn anyone? Onslaugth anyone?

There may or may not be factors for all of these fights. Factors are frequently in the eye of the reader. Hungry Galactus, anybody? Superman holding back, perhaps? Surfer being a pacifist? What makes, for example, Doom KOing Warlock with one hit a huge part of his god-like legend, but Spider-Man doing the same the subject of scorn and ridicule, especially if Spider-Man has shown a better track record for beating beings on that level than Doom?

Based on circumstance, anyone can beat anyone if all the odds are for them, but in a fight like the ones here, he would lose to everyone on the list.

The Strange fight was bad, he just grabbed a potted plant with his web and knocked Strange over the head with it.
That great an all but, Strange has shields up at all times....writers forget about that.

Don't be foolish. The difference between Doom and Spidey is that Doom creates the factors, while they just come to Spidey.

Originally posted by MERCILOUS
All I'm saying is tell the whole damn story. Everyone bitches as soon as anyone says Batman beat Superman. Don't forget the kryptonite and the throwing of Lois off a building and all that other stuff and it's all good though. But all of sudden Spidey beating Firelord is all good without any explanation?

The story is in the eye of the reader in many ways, isn't it? My time on this board has proven that. I debated with an Apoc fanboy before who saw that Cable vs. Apoc fight as Cable breaking his bones from hitting Apoc and Apoc just standing there until he got bored and punched Cable once and ended the fight. I read the same issue and saw it a totally different way. I saw it as a hard-fought battle with bones breaking on both sides and Apoc, in the end, edging out Cable, who miscalculated the amount of power to put into his final attack. We read the same thing - got two different results out of it. Is there a "whole damn story" that everybody can accept?

Originally posted by long pig
Based on circumstance, anyone can beat anyone if all the odds are for them, but in a fight like the ones here, he would lose to everyone on the list.

The Strange fight was bad, he just grabbed a potted plant with his web and knocked Strange over the head with it.
That great an all but, Strange has shields up at all times....writers forget about that.

What a horrid mistake. It's sad that a victory comes out of it, I'd hardly count it, it just doesn't make sense to me.

Originally posted by MERCILOUS
Don't be foolish. The difference between Doom and Spidey is that Doom creates the factors, while they just come to Spidey.

What factors? Warlock blasted Doom, had no effect, Doom turned and blasted Warlock. Everybody is an awe. Spider-Man punches Warlock, knocks him clean out and everybody screams "PIS!". No factors created by Doom whatsoever. So what's the difference?

Doom is expected to be capable do such thing, Spiderman isn't.

Originally posted by MERCILOUS
What a horrid mistake. It's sad that a victory comes out of it, I'd hardly count it, it just doesn't make sense to me.

That's a good example. That's not the only time strange has been knocked clean out by something before. Not the only time he's been ambushed, or injured. In fact, in Defenders #1 that just came out this week, he was ambushed while sleeping and choked until he punched his way out. Again, no shields. So which is truly plot device - the fact that he doesn't have his shields up and gets tagged or the fact that he does and doesn't get tagged? How is that determination made?

Originally posted by demigawd
The story is in the eye of the reader in many ways, isn't it? My time on this board has proven that. I debated with an Apoc fanboy before who saw that Cable vs. Apoc fight as Cable breaking his bones from hitting Apoc and Apoc just standing there until he got bored and punched Cable once and ended the fight. I read the same issue and saw it a totally different way. I saw it as a hard-fought battle with bones breaking on both sides and Apoc, in the end, edging out Cable, who miscalculated the amount of power to put into his final attack. We read the same thing - got two different results out of it. Is there a "whole damn story" that everybody can accept?

Of course somethings are open to interpretation, but other things simply are not. That's why comic books have captions to clarify what's going on. It sucks when writers suck and don't bother filling you in on things artist can't draw, but I don't necessarilly think that's usually the case. So yes, unless you're talking to a delusional Fanboy, there is a generally accepted outcome to most stories.

Originally posted by long pig
Doom is expected to be capable do such thing, Spiderman isn't.

Expected by whom? Why? Based on what? On his prior successes in blasting people? Like who? Spider-Man's victory list is a lot more impressive than Doom's. And don't mention people like Galactus and Beyonder and Silver Surfer...he didn't beat them in fights with his own armor, he stole their power.

Originally posted by MERCILOUS
Of course somethings are open to interpretation, but other things simply are not. That's why comic books have captions to clarify what's going on. It sucks when writers suck and don't bother filling you in on things artist can't draw, but I don't necessarilly think that's usually the case. So yes, unless you're talking to a delusional Fanboy, there is a generally accepted outcome to most stories.

Is there really? When Hulk punched and punched on Superman and Superman didn't move, and Hulk eventually wore himself out...was that generally accepted? Or even when Superman beat Thor in JLA/Avengers. Was that really "generally accepted"? People still go to war over that on boards today, with some people calling that ultimate "PIS" and boycotting Busiek. And it's more than delusional fanboys. It's anybody who believes that Superman's vulnerability to magic should supercede any other factors in a fight between the two.

Or, we can reverse that, and have Thor beat Superman. Would that have been generally accepted? Not to anybody who beleives that Superman's light-speed fighting should supercede any other factors in a fight between the two. Could a fight between those two ever end in a generally accepted outcome?

What's different here?

Originally posted by demigawd
What factors? Warlock blasted Doom, had no effect, Doom turned and blasted Warlock. Everybody is an awe. Spider-Man punches Warlock, knocks him clean out and everybody screams "PIS!". No factors created by Doom whatsoever. So what's the difference?

Originally posted by long pig
Doom is expected to be capable do such thing, Spiderman isn't.

Thanks long pig.

Originally posted by demigawd
That's a good example. That's not the only time strange has been knocked clean out by something before. Not the only time he's been ambushed, or injured. In fact, in Defenders #1 that just came out this week, he was ambushed while sleeping and choked until he punched his way out. Again, no shields. So which is truly plot device - the fact that he doesn't have his shields up and gets tagged or the fact that he does and doesn't get tagged? How is that determination made?

Well first off the fact that he's sleeping in itself is a factor. And secondly it's simple, When a character does something time and time and time again, (Like Namor going full on with Superheavyweights) and then all of sudden is incapable for one issue to take damage far less severe (like Namor being knocked out by spiderman) it's a plot device.

The Defenders new series really isn't.....trustworthy for such small details, it's more just for fun.
Wong with intent to harm would be taken out as soon as nightmare entered his body. The mansion is filled with those kinds of protection spells.

But yeah, I get your point.
Bad writing?

PIS Champs
- Spidey
- Batman
- (list yours here)

Originally posted by demigawd
Is there really? When Hulk punched and punched on Superman and Superman didn't move, and Hulk eventually wore himself out...was that generally accepted? Or even when Superman beat Thor in JLA/Avengers. Was that really "generally accepted"? People still go to war over that on boards today, with some people calling that ultimate "PIS" and boycotting Busiek. And it's more than delusional fanboys. It's anybody who believes that Superman's vulnerability to magic should supercede any other factors in a fight between the two.

Well next time someone brings that crap up you just apologize to those fanboys and let them know that you can't help that it happened. Besides you really did take me out of context there. The part that was generally accepted was what took place. You can argue what should happen all day long like some jackasses do, or you can accept what happened because it happens to be the truth. Just like it's the truth that many circumstances went into Spiderman's fight.

True !!

Originally posted by MERCILOUS
Thanks long pig.



Well first off the fact that he's sleeping in itself is a factor. And secondly it's simple, When a character does something time and time and time again, (Like Namor going full on with Superheavyweights) and then all of sudden is incapable for one issue to take damage far less severe (like Namor being knocked out by spiderman) it's a plot device.

Not a factor - the shields Long Pig is referring to are auto-shields. They're active even when Strange is asleep. It's what protects Strange from sneak attacks, like snipers or muggers or speed blitzers or anything else. If his shields were on and truly "automatic", it would have prevented Strange from being choked, even though he was asleep. So...is that bad writing? Is every time Strange is hurt bad writing, then? I think you touched upon something important when you said



So then can it be said that if Strange continues to get ambushed, or if we count and find that he's been caught without his shield more often than it protecting him from surprise attack that, in fact, him having his auto shield is PIS? If we were to count the number of times he's been successfully ambushed and injured vs. the number of times he's been unsuccessfully ambushed because of his shield and the former is higher...will Long Pig have to dismiss Strange's auto-shield from now on when using Strange in debates, because it's PIS?

And look at that list of Spider-Man's victories. Why doesn't that count, based on sheer volume, as qualifying him as being able to beat these guys legitimately. That's an extensive enough list, isn't it?

Originally posted by MERCILOUS
Well next time someone brings that crap up you just apologize to those fanboys and let them know that you can't help that it happened. Besides you really did take me out of context there. The part that was generally accepted was what took place. You can argue what should happen all day long like some jackasses do, or you can accept what happened because it happens to be the truth. Just like it's the truth that many circumstances went into Spiderman's fight.

ok, so you're saying that "generally accepted" means what DID happen? ok, then what DID happen was that Spider-Man beat Juggernaut by trapping him in cement. You yourself said that you disregard that. Generally accepted or no?

Originally posted by demigawd
Not a factor - the shields Long Pig is referring to are auto-shields. They're active even when Strange is asleep. It's what protects Strange from sneak attacks, like snipers or muggers or speed blitzers or anything else. If his shields were on and truly "automatic", it would have prevented Strange from being choked, even though he was asleep. So...is that bad writing? Is every time Strange is hurt bad writing, then? I think you touched upon something important when you said

Yes, everytime Strange is hurt it's bad writing, unless it happens a few more times, then It's just a known fact that he sometimes lets his guard down.

Originally posted by demigawd
So then can it be said that if Strange continues to get ambushed, or if we count and find that he's been caught without his shield more often than it protecting him from surprise attack that, in fact, him having his auto shield is PIS? If we were to count the number of times he's been successfully ambushed and injured vs. the number of times he's been unsuccessfully ambushed because of his shield and the former is higher...will Long Pig have to dismiss Strange's auto-shield from now on when using Strange in debates, because it's PIS?

Having an autoshield isn't PIS, He just forgets to put it up, maybe he has to renew the spell ever so often, maybe it takes concentration. It's poor writing, but it can infact change what a character can and can't do. In a non-ambush situation, there is no danger for Long Pig in using Stranges auto-shields for his debate.

Because common sense dictates just as much as what has actually happend.
We all know books are made to sell, and sometimes they have to pull something out-landish when sales drop. So, we ignore the silly stuff and use the more level headed majority to make a case.

Originally posted by demigawd
ok, so you're saying that "generally accepted" means what DID happen? ok, then what DID happen was that Spider-Man beat Juggernaut by trapping him in cement. You yourself said that you disregard that. Generally accepted or no?

That would be the case if say, Juggernaut had shown that he couldn't break out of such entrapments many times before.

Originally posted by MERCILOUS
Yes, everytime Strange is hurt it's bad writing, unless it happens a few more times, then It's just a known fact that he sometimes lets his guard down.



Having an autoshield isn't PIS, He just forgets to put it up, maybe he has to renew the spell ever so often, maybe it takes concentration. It's poor writing, but it can infact change what a character can and can't do. In a non-ambush situation, there is no danger for Long Pig in using Stranges auto-shields for his debate.

True, but if it's truly an auto-shield, then there's no such thing as "forgetting" to put it up unless it's not really an auto-shield, right?

The whole "having to renew" thing and the other guesses are conjecture if it's never been stated in the comic. Isn't that justifying PIS?

Something's gotta give, right? Either it's not really an auto-shield or every single instance of him not being protected is PIS. And if I can name more times where he's not been protected than Long Pig can of him being protected, then doesn't it mean that it's more likely that the auto-shield is bad writing or PIS than the other way around?

Originally posted by long pig
Because common sense dictates just as much as what has actually happend.
We all know books are made to sell, and sometimes they have to pull something out-landish when sales drop. So, we ignore the silly stuff and use the more level headed majority to make a case.
But what in common sense would dictate that Dr. Strange has auto-shields when there are dozens of situations where he's been knocked out by failure to be protected? What in common sense would dictate that Flash cannot move at lightspeed instantly when he's evacuated an entire city of millions in less than a second? What in common sense would dictate that Spider-Man cannot beat Firelord when he beat Silver Surfer? What in common sense would dictate that Spider-Man can beat Silver Surfer when he cannot beat Doctor Octopus? Is it really as easy as common sense? Where is the battle line drawn?

Originally posted by MERCILOUS
That would be the case if say, Juggernaut had shown that he couldn't break out of such entrapments many times before.

Fair point. And likewise, Spider-Man has beaten Herald-level opponents many times before. Generally accepted?

Because Strange has mentioned having auto shields up and there are more times shown that he does have them than times shown that he doesn't.
And usually the times showing him not having them is in another characters book, or when a plot can't move forward without it.

Flash is inconsistant as hell, you know this.

Just say the words "Spiderman can beat Silver Surfer" outloud....doesn't sound right at all, does it?

It really is as easy as common sense.

Originally posted by demigawd
True, but if it's truly an auto-shield, then there's no such thing as "forgetting" to put it up unless it's not really an auto-shield, right?

The whole "having to renew" thing and the other guesses are conjecture if it's never been stated in the comic. Isn't that justifying PIS?

Something's gotta give, right? Either it's not really an auto-shield or every single instance of him not being protected is PIS. And if I can name more times where he's not been protected than Long Pig can of him being protected, then doesn't it mean that it's more likely that the auto-shield is bad writing or PIS than the other way around?

The problem lies in that most often the autoshields are intact. So until someone writes it differently or it keep happening then it's an error on the writers part.

Originally posted by demigawd
But what in common sense would dictate that Dr. Strange has auto-shields when there are dozens of situations where he's been knocked out by failure to be protected? What in common sense would dictate that Flash cannot move at lightspeed instantly when he's evacuated an entire city of millions in less than a second? What in common sense would dictate that Spider-Man cannot beat Firelord when he beat Silver Surfer? What in common sense would dictate that Spider-Man can beat Silver Surfer when he cannot beat Doctor Octopus? Is it really as easy as common sense? Where is the battle line drawn?


Under what conditions, with what factors, and what determined the victory? Cause Batman beat Superman 3 times and Lobo (see it sounds funny when you leave out all the reason why.)

Are there really more times of Strange being protected by it than not? Don't know Strange well enough to answer, but I'd like if someone who knew Strange well could challenge that point. But from what I've read of him, in Defenders, in FF, in Avengers, and in X-men (which, like you said, aren't his own books), he's been ambushed and I've never seen it mentioned, so I'm wondering about that.

Flash is inconsistent, yes. But isn't Spider-Man inconsistent too? I it's "generally accepted" that just about anything Flash does or doesn't do is fair because he's so all over the place. Doesn't that sound accurate of Spider-Man too?

When I say the words, "Doom can beat Warlock" or "Wolverine can beat Hulk"...that doesn't sound right either.

But a lot of fans swear by it. And not just fanboys. A LOT of fans.

Originally posted by demigawd
Fair point. And likewise, Spider-Man has beaten Herald-level opponents many times before. Generally accepted?

That would be generally accepted, If say, those characters you mentioned hadn't been killing 100's of guys tougher than Spiderman at the same time on a regular basis.

Everytime Strange is fighting someone his shields are up, he doesn't say "let me caste a shield before I fight you!", they just tend to be there.

Of course there are errors and such, but the majority his shields are up with seemingly no concious effort.

Flash is hella inconsistant, and Spiderman is too. The difference is Flash has a viable REASON or an EXCUSE to be able to do the insane things he does, Spiderman doesn't.

Doom can't beat Warlock, Wolverine can't beat Hulk....not the majority, and not with both having equal footing. Not happening.

Originally posted by MERCILOUS
The problem lies in that most often the autoshields are intact. So until someone writes it differently or it keep happening then it's an error on the writers part.


I've never collected Strange's solo series, but in every appearance he's made, he's been ambushed. And given that he doesn't have a series, all of his appearances over the past several years have been guest spots. I've never seen the auto-shield. He's been ambushed by Wong, Doom, surprised by Xavier, some low-level mage in an X-men guest spot. Long Pig mentioned Spider-Man doing it, too. All errors? ALL of them?




True, but Spider-Man didn't have any help against firelord. He used the environment and psychology, that's it.

Originally posted by demigawd
Are there really more times of Strange being protected by it than not? Don't know Strange well enough to answer, but I'd like if someone who knew Strange well could challenge that point. But from what I've read of him, in Defenders, in FF, in Avengers, and in X-men (which, like you said, aren't his own books), he's been ambushed and I've never seen it mentioned, so I'm wondering about that.

As far as I know yes, I've never even heard of him being ambushed before.

Originally posted by demigawd
Flash is inconsistent, yes. But isn't Spider-Man inconsistent too? I it's "generally accepted" that just about anything Flash does or doesn't do is fair because he's so all over the place. Doesn't that sound accurate of Spider-Man too?

Flash is inconsistent but at least they try to give an explanation, and since the science is over the head of the average reader they get away with it. On the other hand you have a Class 100 character who can't break cement.

Originally posted by demigawd
When I say the words, "Doom can beat Warlock" or "Wolverine can beat Hulk"...that doesn't sound right either.

But a lot of fans swear by it. And not just fanboys. A LOT of fans.

But Doom has done it, without any circumstance, so it must be true. Is it likely that it happens again, that I don't know.

Originally posted by demigawd
I've never collected Strange's solo series, but in every appearance he's made, he's been ambushed. And given that he doesn't have a series, all of his appearances over the past several years have been guest spots. I've never seen the auto-shield. He's been ambushed by Wong, Doom, surprised by Xavier, some low-level mage in an X-men guest spot. Long Pig mentioned Spider-Man doing it, too. All errors? ALL of them?


Doom ambushing Strange is reasonable (especially if you're talking about the FF story I think you're talking about.) Xavier? Shields don't necessarily block all types of attack. A low level mage? Every dog has his day. A pot to the head? Definitley an error.


Originally posted by demigawd
True, but Spider-Man didn't have any help against firelord. He used the environment and psychology, that's it.

Oh so you're saying that Spiderman's opponents holding back, dropping building on people, and utulizing huge explosions is a regular part of Spidey's tactics.

Originally posted by MERCILOUS
That would be generally accepted, If say, those characters you mentioned hadn't been killing 100's of guys tougher than Spiderman at the same time on a regular basis.

Fair point, except Spider-Man beat a lot of those same guys. Doesn't that put him in that same league? Match Gladiator's greatest victories compared to Spider-Man's greatest victories. I'd argue that the edge actually goes to Spider-Man.

I was just reminded. Spider-Man also beaten Rachel Summers - Phoenix.

Originally posted by long pig
Everytime Strange is fighting someone his shields are up, he doesn't say "let me caste a shield before I fight you!", they just tend to be there.

Of course there are errors and such, but the majority his shields are up with seemingly no concious effort.

Flash is hella inconsistant, and Spiderman is too. The difference is Flash has a viable REASON or an EXCUSE to be able to do the insane things he does, Spiderman doesn't.

Doom can't beat Warlock, Wolverine can't beat Hulk....not the majority, and not with both having equal footing. Not happening.

Oh, well, that doesn't mean they're auto-shields that protected him unconsciously, when he's, for example, sleeping. Or being sniped by the Punisher. It could just be like Magneto's or Doom's shield...they just will it up without any production.

What is Flash's excuse for being inconsistent? He has an excuse for being fast...he's the Flash. But what's his excuse for having to run around explosives and run into a sword one comic and evacuating a city of millions in less than a second the next? Are neither PIS? Both PIS? Where's the truth? And how is that different from Spider-Man's NUMEROUS victories against herald level opponents? It's not a one time thing...what I wrote establishes a track record. Is it PIS? How much can someone credibly dismiss of a character's history before it becomes too much?

Sniped by Punisher? Did that happen?
He was once sniped a wraith of Death, but the projectile bounced off his shield.
I'm guessing having a shield up takes his energy reserves bit by bit, so he relies on his sleep protection spells and mansion spells to keep him safe, instead of keeping a shield up.

I'm guessing you just go with what you want to believe, nothing is permanent or infailable, even the PIS argument isn't always correct.

Also, you got to take in the fact that these characters are people, and they sometimes mess up and do the wrong thing the wrong way, or don't go all out.

How much can someone dismiss before it becomes too much?
The majority.

Originally posted by MERCILOUS
As far as I know yes, I've never even heard of him being ambushed before.


I named a few a post of two ago, and I'm hardly an expert in Strange. When are some times he's been sneak attacked and he was protected by these auto-shields?



Is the attempt at an explanation an excuse, though? is the fact that the science is poorly understood an excuse? They don't often explain the science of it. Different writers just portray Flash differently. Most people are ok with that, but up in arms about Spider-Man beating certain people.

As for Juggernaut....if it's cement, it's possible that because it's wet, Juggy never had the leverage necessary to get out. Once Hulk got stuck in quicksand. PIS both times?



Hmm...this line undoes everything you've been trying to say. If it happened then it must be true. Spider-Man beat Strange, with no circumstances. He hit him with a pot and knocked him out. So it must be true? What's the difference?

Originally posted by long pig
Sniped by Punisher? Did that happen?
He was once sniped a wraith of Death, but the projectile bounced off his shield.
I'm guessing having a shield up takes his energy reserves bit by bit, so he relies on his sleep protection spells and mansion spells to keep him safe, instead of keeping a shield up.

I'm guessing you just go with what you want to believe, nothing is permanent or infailable, even the PIS argument isn't always correct.

Also, you got to take in the fact that these characters are people, and they sometimes mess up and do the wrong thing the wrong way, or don't go all out.

How much can someone dismiss before it becomes too much?
The majority.
Nah, the sniped by punisher thing was just an example.

So your overall conclusion is that someone can dismiss MOST feats and victories by a single character and it's ok? Interesting.

I think it's just us on this board right now. I'm curious to hear what other people think.

Most is the majority, I said the majority is too much.

You can dismiss events that seem to go in direct conflict of what you yourself know about a character.
But that is only valid if you know a good bit about said character, if you're just a new reader, you can't dismiss anything without possibly being wrong.

Originally posted by demigawd
Fair point, except Spider-Man beat a lot of those same guys. Doesn't that put him in that same league? Match Gladiator's greatest victories compared to Spider-Man's greatest victories. I'd argue that the edge actually goes to Spider-Man.

Again, under what circumstances. In order for those to be counted, I'd need you to say, they met on an eqaul playing field, there were no outside factors, and Spiderman just handed those guys there asses. No help, no gadgets (except usual ones like webbing), No interference, no holding back on either party.

Originally posted by demigawd
I was just reminded. Spider-Man also beaten Rachel Summers - Phoenix.

I think you know how I feel about that comment.

Originally posted by demigawd
Oh, well, that doesn't mean they're auto-shields that protected him unconsciously, when he's, for example, sleeping. Or being sniped by the Punisher. It could just be like Magneto's or Doom's shield...they just will it up without any production.

You might be right.

Originally posted by demigawd
What is Flash's excuse for being inconsistent? He has an excuse for being fast...he's the Flash. But what's his excuse for having to run around explosives and run into a sword one comic and evacuating a city of millions in less than a second the next? Are neither PIS? Both PIS? Where's the truth? And how is that different from Spider-Man's NUMEROUS victories against herald level opponents? It's not a one time thing...what I wrote establishes a track record. Is it PIS? How much can someone credibly dismiss of a character's history before it becomes too much?

You bringing up Slade does not help you point, Slade has consistently shown to be able to keep up with speedsters. Flash, Wonder Woman, and a few times against Impulse.

Oh, sorry, misunderstood. ok, last question, Long Pig. If we were to do a count of the times he's been hit and the times he's been protected by his auto-shield and it came out to 26 times sneak attack successful and 20 times unsuccessful, would someone be fair in dismissing the auto-shield?

Originally posted by demigawd
I know that when people think of Plot Induced Stupidity, this is the textbook example. It's the legendary, prototypical fight that proves that sometimes...writers just get it completely wrong.

But is it?

Firelord isn't actually the first or only herald-level being Spider-Man has gotten the best of, or who have proven unable to defeat him. Let's look at some other victims:

Gravitron
Titania
Hulk
Magneto
Juggernaut
Silver Surfer
Adam Warlock
The X-Men
The Fantastic Four
Thanos
Eric Masterson Thor
Beta Ray Bill
Loki

So...what is it about Spider-Man? And if a character's power is best measured by his victories...does a victims list like this make Spider-Man one of the most effective heroes in comicdom?

Let's cast a blind eye to this being Spider-Man. Look at the victory list above. Based on that list alone, could this mystery character beat Firelord?

I agree with you some what...SM as a character is always portrayed as being an underdog..the guy who everyone underestimates, and somehow manages to overcome overwhelming odds..if nothing else..in a debate context, stories like these can be used to prove his resourcefulness and tactical skill, rather than his physical prowess/abilities.

If these scenarios are used to portray his physical abilities however, they should only be used to support "logical arguments" that are consistant with what we know of the characters abilities.

For example..Marvel states that SM is several times faster than a human, as well as has reflexes 15 to 40 times faster than that of a human, and in addition to this he has precognitive abilities...

So I could use the Titania, Hulk, Eric Masterson, FF, and X-men fights as a examples supporting the "logical argument" that it would be very difficult for anyone to hit SM, unless they possessed some form of superhuman speed, agility, precog, etc..etc..that could match SM's..or at the very least..some ability that would negate his advantage in these areas.

All "historical information" should be used in a debate, as long as it supports "logical argumentation."

SM's history proves that he is resourceful enough defeat powerful opponents if he has a plan and if these powerful opponents underestimate him, however, logic tells me that based on Firelord's history/abilities, he should be able to survive much more than SM could ever dish out in an all out--no holds barred brawl..(The guy freaking survives the rigors of deep space for Cripes Sake!!)..

I understand that these are comic book characters, and that their abilities/origins are "illogical", however, in a debate context, we need to have a set of standards/logic in which we debate these battles from, or else we end up with never-ending debates that use silly-circular agruments. (*note: these types of arguments are usually used by fanboys)

So in conclusion...if we are assuming that this is the normal everday SM fighting with the abilities he is usually portrayed to have in his comics, and if we assume that this is a brawl for all type battle with the formal herald of Galactus...then SM looses this rematch quicker than you can say PIS...

Depends on when/where/how he was hit.

If he's hit 10 times in a wolverine comic where Strange being K.O'd is the main plot, 10 times in a crossover with DC where Strange get's beaten by Batman and 6 times in his own series where he's hit while asleep/under mind control, then no, you wouldn't dismiss the auto-shields.

Originally posted by demigawd
I named a few a post of two ago, and I'm hardly an expert in Strange. When are some times he's been sneak attacked and he was protected by these auto-shields?

It happens so often that's a strange question, Just pick up a Strange book.

Originally posted by demigawd
Is the attempt at an explanation an excuse, though? is the fact that the science is poorly understood an excuse? They don't often explain the science of it. Different writers just portray Flash differently. Most people are ok with that, but up in arms about Spider-Man beating certain people.

Portrayal and results are two different things.

Originally posted by demigawd
As for Juggernaut....if it's cement, it's possible that because it's wet, Juggy never had the leverage necessary to get out. Once Hulk got stuck in quicksand. PIS both times?

Quicksand and Wet cement are not comparable. Struggling in quicksand will make you sink, strugging in wet cement will get you out.

Originally posted by demigawd
Hmm...this line undoes everything you've been trying to say. If it happened then it must be true. Spider-Man beat Strange, with no circumstances. He hit him with a pot and knocked him out. So it must be true? What's the difference?

On accident, like the way Green arrow beat Amazo when the whole of the Justice league reserves and all could do nothing. But at least then there was no auto-shields in question. How something happens is as important as the outcome. This is the point I've been trying to stress.

How many more times should I ask how or why or under what circumstances?

Originally posted by MERCILOUS
Again, under what circumstances. In order for those to be counted, I'd need you to say, they met on an eqaul playing field, there were no outside factors, and Spiderman just handed those guys there asses. No help, no gadgets (except usual ones like webbing), No interference, no holding back on either party.


I find that fights rarely go that way, even in real life. That's why boxers have excuses all the time, lol. Should we dismiss a Spider-Man victory over the Hulk because Spider-Man threw the Hulk into a gamma generator that turned Hulk back into Banner? If that's the case, then shouldn't we also dismiss a Hulk victory over Gladiator because the Hulk kicked Gladiator into a nuclear reactor, which is Gladiator's weakness?



You ain't alone. But in Secret Wars, when Spider-Man broke Jean's TK hold on him...it happened, right? No outside tricks or anything. Acceptable? How's it different from the above Doom example



I brought up Slade for a reason. There are many (myself included) who don't believe Slade SHOULD keep up with light-speeders, even if he could see them with his special vision, because as fast as Slade is, he's still nowhere CLOSE to lightspeed. But he beat them...more than once. PIS, despite there being a track record?

Originally posted by whobdamandog
I agree with you some what...SM as a character is always portrayed as being an underdog..the guy who everyone underestimates, and somehow manages to overcome overwhelming odds..if nothing else..in a debate context, stories like these can be used to prove his resourcefulness and tactical skill, rather than his physical prowess/abilities.

If these scenarios are used to portray his physical abilities however, they should only be used to support "logical arguments" that are consistant with what we know of the characters abilities.

For example..Marvel states that SM is several times faster than a human, as well as has reflexes 15 to 40 times faster than that of a human, and in addition to this he has precognitive abilities...

So I could use the Titania, Hulk, Eric Masterson, FF, and X-men fights as a examples supporting the "logical argument" that it would be very difficult for anyone to hit SM, unless they possessed some form of superhuman speed, agility, precog, etc..etc..that could match SM's..or at the very least..some ability that would negate his advantage in these areas.

All "historical information" should be used in a debate, as long as it supports "logical argumentation."

SM's history proves that he is resourceful enough defeat powerful opponents if he has a plan and if these powerful opponents underestimate him, however, logic tells me that based on Firelord's history/abilities, he should be able to survive much more than SM could ever dish out in an all out--no holds barred brawl..(The guy freaking survives the rigors of deep space for Cripes Sake!!)..

I understand that these are comic book characters, and that their abilities/origins are "illogical", however, in a debate context, we need to have a set of standards/logic in which we debate these battles from, or else we end up with never-ending debates that use silly-circular agruments. (*note: these types of arguments are usually used by fanboys)

So in conclusion...if we are assuming that this is the normal everday SM fighting with the abilities he is usually portrayed to have in his comics, and if we assume that this is a brawl for all type battle with the formal herald of Galactus...then SM looses this rematch quicker than you can say PIS...

Well-argued. I think those are some really good points. So then, if I were to create a thread called "Spider-Man vs. Firelord" and said in the stipulations that Spider-Man has three days of prep, the fight takes place in Manhattan and Firelord has no idea who Spider-Man is...would it change your answer? What about for any of the other above fights?

Originally posted by MERCILOUS
]It happens so often that's a strange question, Just pick up a Strange book.


Really? Strange gets ambushed and auto-shielded that often?



Portrayal often leads to results. That was my point. According to some posters here, writers portray Flash as needing to accelerate. I've read differently. Obviously these portrayed will influence the results. The former portrayal would cause Flash to credibly lose to Slade the way he did in Identity Crisis. The latter would make it impossible.



Last I checked, you can't swim in wet cement. But I guess that depends on where/when/how you hit the bottom, which I'd imagine there would have to be at some point.



Likewise, Warlock has taken a blast from Galactus, but Doom puts him down in one shot? Is the PIS Warlock surviving the blast from Galactus or Doom putting Warlock down in one shot? Or does Doom hit as hard as Galactus? Or is Galactus that weak?

In the case of Green Arrow, he exploited a specific weakness, which is what Spider-Man did to beat Hulk.



For all of them? Damn. That's a lot. I'm sure as the discussion expands more people will talk about specifics. Otherwise, I'll write when I wake up.

Originally posted by demigawd
Expected by whom? Why? Based on what? On his prior successes in blasting people? Like who? Spider-Man's victory list is a lot more impressive than Doom's. And don't mention people like Galactus and Beyonder and Silver Surfer...he didn't beat them in fights with his own armor, he stole their power.
I agree completely.

Doom is one of my favorite villains, but he is not God. He makes mistakes - when I think of it, he makes mistakes all the time.

Cool character, great villain, impressive at times, but please, to all the Doom fans, he is not mr. Perfect.

When Doom steels the Beyonders power with his "strong personality" and a half working armor, that's all good. But when Spider-Man, after a very long and hard fight finally surprises Firelord - who is one of the weaker heralds, and is a lame fighter - and fights him with everything he's got, that's suddenly crap writing ?

Bollocks.

Every major character has had his or her share of crap writing, and SM certainly is no exception. But the Firelord fight wasn't that exaggerated...

(I am not saying SM will beat him a second time).

Originally posted by MERCILOUS
What the?

Juggernaut trapped in cement? So much for the foward moving power of Cyttorak.

The Fantastic Four? You mean where they're all like "hey stop we wanna talk to you" and he's running around them?

The X-men? I hope you're not talking secret wars when they were depowered.

Just he fact that you put these in makes me question the rest. He probably had cosmic powers for a couple more.

Poor spidey hater.

The ff were defending themselves. You have to remember that back in those days they talked like that when they fought.

The xmen got owned.

And yes peter has pulled some impressive victories, though he is a mild superhuman, he is very intelligent and pulls shit off, no different than batman.

Originally posted by demigawd
There may or may not be factors for all of these fights. Factors are frequently in the eye of the reader. Hungry Galactus, anybody? Superman holding back, perhaps? Surfer being a pacifist? What makes, for example, Doom KOing Warlock with one hit a huge part of his god-like legend, but Spider-Man doing the same the subject of scorn and ridicule, especially if Spider-Man has shown a better track record for beating beings on that level than Doom?

Its because spiderman is one of the most hated around here...

This whole thread seems to be about how we ALL pick and choose as to what is viable and what is PIS.

We all do it, because we all have personal connections with our respective favorite characters.

LMAO @ Spiderman defeating Firelord being "stupid writing."

Firelord made the mistake of letting Spiderman get in close where he could work his magic. Big mistake, obviously. How is it "stupid writing" when Spiderman regularly trashes opponents who are much less agile than he is and let their arrogance get the best of him? Do any of you all HAVE that Spiderman comic? Read again and look at the laundry list of mistakes Firelord made. Typical high-and-mighty cosmic who spots earthling and says "oh ho, I'll make mincemeat of him but I'll play with him first." If he just zorched the area (like he COULD do) he could have defeated him with ease, but that makes for a BORING story arc (recall the arc spanned two issues), correct? Ever heard of PLOT DEVICES, gentlemen?

Same mistake Titania made. Do you NOT recall Spiderman saying (paraphrased) "Oh if I were to fight you in a closet it would be fair, but give me some room to operate and I'll bust your ass?" Mcfarlane introduced the drawing style where Spidey started contorting his body at all sorts of odd angles and he was already quick enough to dodge bullets after they are fired (from a certain distance; I think Wonder Woman is one who is quick enough to deflect them at near point-blank range). NOBODY on the Uncanny X-Men is noted for their incredible speed; why is it difficult to imagine Spiderman bouncing around their butts when they were not in ATTACK mode anyway? When you are trying to KILL a frog you are muuuuch more focused as opposed to when you are merely trying to CATCH one, correct?

Sheeeeed up with the Superman vs. Hulk example. Find me an example that is in continuity. Funny how nobody mentions when Hulk was banging on Superman it ALSO said that with each passing second, Hulk grows ever more ferocious and his strength increases geometrically. The outcome of this strange duel IS IN DOUBT.

Learn to distinguish between "bad writing" and "extenuating circumstances." You all act as if Spiderman beating the hell out of Firelord set a precedent. It DIDN'T.

And so odd, Spiderman beating Firelord (let's see, Class 10 strength vs. Class 70ish, super reflexes/agility/spider sense to avoid punches/attacks) is piss poor writing but Wolverine (Class ONE strength vs. Class 75 strength; no increased speed, no increased agility, no increased reflexes) sometimes getting the best of Hulk isn't?

Gotta love the cosistency on these boards (am euphemizing "fanboyism" as "consistency," by the way).

Originally posted by demigawd
ok, so you're saying that "generally accepted" means what DID happen? ok, then what DID happen was that Spider-Man beat Juggernaut by trapping him in cement. You yourself said that you disregard that. Generally accepted or no?

well I guess this settles that things are open to interpretation...I didn't see merc say he disregarded it at all...I did however read that he disagreed with it...

wow, great thread and discussion, gents! one of the better reasoned threads i've seen in my short time here. no flaming, or other stupidity, just good discussion. nice.

what you're forgetting, demi (some GREAT arguments, btw - you've raised several issues i've brought up many times - ie - PIS being in the eyes of the beholder, PIS being able to both make a character look worse that they are generally portrayed, but ALSO better!) is that in this forum extenuating circumstances are disallowed. characters stand against each other with only the powers they have. (unless specifically stated otherwise in the thread opening) and for each of those battles you've listed, i could list times where spidey was clobbered by the same opponent (hulk and juggs barely NOTICE spidey most times, wolvie himself nearly killed spidey, as did masterson. the thanos one has me puzzled - you referring to the 2in1 annual where spidey sort of scored the closing blow? if so, he was so scared in that battle he actually FLED the battle for a time!) or beaten by people well BELOW these guys (daredevil has ko'd him for example).

in a comicbook, there is MUCH, MUCH more leeway than there is on this forum. people frequently say a character will sumarily crush another character on this forum, which (case dependent) may or may not be true, but in a comicbook battle, that almost NEVER happens- regardless of the mismatch. (firelord v spidey, for example) a clever writer can make the underdog win almost everytime. but SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE will still scream PIS or CIS. is it? who knows! different writers view different characters . . . differently. this forum tries to eliminate the sujectivity that comicbooks so often entail.

the problem with that (and a great irony!)? most people on this site use a character's extreme showings as proof. those SAME showings that are likely labelled PIS or CIS!! it's why when i debate, i TRY to look at the character's GENERAL portrayal. it eliminates what might be termed PIS at both extremes. ie - let's say 10 years ago a character (call him A) is shown lifting a 747. now character A is only cl10 strength but let's say he was really po'd and lifted it. but he's NEVER done anything like that before or since. does that one instance make in cl100? no. but would someone argue that he CAN be a cl100? of course. but is that one showing 10 years ago enough to back such an argument? i'd say no, because based on his GENERAL portrayal, he is nowhere NEAR that strong. but still, he did it . . .

anyhow, i've gone on too long. let me sum up: in a comic, with clever (??) writing, spidey can beat firelord. in this forum? no chance.

Originally posted by demigawd
I know that when people think of Plot Induced Stupidity, this is the textbook example. It's the legendary, prototypical fight that proves that sometimes...writers just get it completely wrong.

But is it?

Firelord isn't actually the first or only herald-level being Spider-Man has gotten the best of, or who have proven unable to defeat him. Let's look at some other victims:

Gravitron
Titania
Hulk
Magneto
Juggernaut
Silver Surfer
Adam Warlock
The X-Men
The Fantastic Four
Thanos
Eric Masterson Thor
Beta Ray Bill
Loki

So...what is it about Spider-Man? And if a character's power is best measured by his victories...does a victims list like this make Spider-Man one of the most effective heroes in comicdom?

Let's cast a blind eye to this being Spider-Man. Look at the victory list above. Based on that list alone, could this mystery character beat Firelord?
Spider-Man beat Graviton when he was Captain Universe mode on.
He never beat Thanos or the other guys on the list.
He fought with Titania and fall from the last floor of Dayli Bugle unhurted and he was starting to access to the Captain Universe power, he blasted Titania into oblivsion with a huge energy bolt.
Spider-Man is pushover sometimes.
Strength: Superhuman Class 50 (8/12)
Flight Speed: Warp Speed (12/12)
Stamina: Godlike (9/10)
Durability: Godlike (13/14)
Agility: Enhanced Human (5/7)
Reflexes: Enhanced Human (5/7)
Fighting Skills: Xandarian Nova Corps combat training
Special Skills/Abilities: Knowledge of advanced alien technology and space navigation
Superhuman physical powers: The ability to manipulate cosmic energy in the form of stellar fire, making him the humanoid equivalent of a miniature sun, and allowing him to project any form of energy possessed by a star, including heat, light, gravity, radio waves and charged particles; the ability to fly at near light speeds through interstellar space and traverse hyperspace; and near total physical invulnerability

This is Firelord, he'll own Spidey, really bad.

Erm, but Spidey won. So there's your proof.

-DM

P.S. ...just playin' the fanboy here. Don't want anyone popping a blood vessel at my stupidity.

P.P.S. Spidey once webbed Quicksilver too. Written to max potential, he's hella-agile and quick, and we all know travel speed is different from fight speed. I'm not trying to justify Spidey's win over Firelord, it was still dumb, but I think the web-head is closer to some of these people (at least enough to stay alive or stalemate) than many of us think. And there's my serious fanboy bs to go with the even stupider bs earlier.

Some nice PIS arguments.

We're all inclined to lean toward their best or worst showings based upon how we like/dislike a character. Spidey's been manhandled by Dr. Octopus and Scorpion, and the list could go on. But he's also destroyed those people, and has done ridiculous things like beating Firelord, or lifted things well beyond 10 Tons. Given his abilities, and how he's been able to use them, stuff like avoiding Juggs and Hulk, and temporarily hurting Hulk, are believable. The Firelord victory isn't, but if Spidey had simply stayed away from Firelord and given him some problems, I'd have no problem with it. So PIS? I think we can all agree that it's a 'Yes.' But it's never set in stone...and each person's definition of PIS will change from character to character. It's unfortunate, but given an inconsistent set of rules that we're asked to accept in any comic universe, many of which aren't believable to begin with, it's hard to find much that's concrete.

Personally, I think everyone should stop worrying so much. Spidey/Firelord has become this legendary PIS on the forum, and I just find it rather hilarious. Go Spidey!

-DM

Generally smart characters like batman and spiderman have so much PIS/CIS, because you can't measure intelligence, like you can strength.
So if the fare much better against "superior" opponents, people just look at the numbers, and not the strategy the heroes have brought to the table, time and time again.

Spidey Vs Firelord..

part 2..

part 3....fin..(*note I have way to much free time on my hands..)

Was that a spidey speedblits I saw on part 2?

sweet.

Originally posted by CorderaMitchell
Was that a spidey speedblits I saw on part 2?

sweet.

Yup..he's very difficult to see when going all out..the fight with firelord demonstrates the same type of attack style he used when fighting Iron Man 2020, Masterson Thor, Titania, Hulk, Juggernaut, X-Men...etc..etc..etc..Hell..its been stated by just about all of his opponents that he's "lightning fast", a friggin "blur", and next to "impossible" to hit when going all out...and you still have jokers on this board who state that he's as fast as a "peak" human...lol..friggin ridiculous..

Originally posted by whobdamandog
Yup..he's very difficult to see when going all out..the fight with firelord demonstrates the same type of attack style he used when fighting Iron Man 2020, Masterson Thor, Titania, Hulk, Juggernaut, X-Men...etc..etc..etc..Hell..its been stated by just about all of his opponents that he's "lightning fast", a friggin "blur", and next to "impossible" to hit when going all out...and you still have jokers on this board who state that he's as fast as a "peak" human...lol..friggin ridiculous..
Spider-Man's reflexes compared to those of Thor are pathetic.
X-Men possess superhuman reflexes?None of them, Wolverine is on the peak human range, same NC and that's all.
Spider-Man beating Firelord is one of the crappiest stories ever appeared in a comic book, on par with Wolverine killing Lobo with his bone claws.
Spider-Man hasn't got the strenght to knock out a guy that can stay fist to fist with Silver Surfer and match him.

Yep or that peak humans, are slightly slower, or have tricked people to thinking he's spiderman.

Spiderman in high gear, is BRUTAL.

He used a speedblitz on Megawatt, I loved that speedblitz.

Originally posted by K3VIL
Spider-Man's reflexes compared to those of Thor are pathetic.
X-Men possess superhuman reflexes?None of them, Wolverine is on the peak human range, same NC and that's all.
Spider-Man beating Firelord is one of the crappiest stories ever appeared in a comic book, on par with Wolverine killing Lobo with his bone claws.
Spider-Man hasn't got the strenght to knock out a guy that can stay fist to fist with Silver Surfer and match him.

He's not saying that, he's talking about speed and attacking in general.

Didn't you used to think that spiderman beating firelord wasn't that hard to believe?

Originally posted by K3VIL
Spider-Man beat Graviton when he was Captain Universe mode on.
He never beat Thanos or the other guys on the list.
He fought with Titania and fall from the last floor of Dayli Bugle unhurted and he was starting to access to the Captain Universe power, he blasted Titania into oblivsion with a huge energy bolt.
Spider-Man is pushover sometimes.
Strength: Superhuman Class 50 (8/12)
Flight Speed: Warp Speed (12/12)
Stamina: Godlike (9/10)
Durability: Godlike (13/14)
Agility: Enhanced Human (5/7)
Reflexes: Enhanced Human (5/7)
Fighting Skills: Xandarian Nova Corps combat training
Special Skills/Abilities: Knowledge of advanced alien technology and space navigation
Superhuman physical powers: The ability to manipulate cosmic energy in the form of stellar fire, making him the humanoid equivalent of a miniature sun, and allowing him to project any form of energy possessed by a star, including heat, light, gravity, radio waves and charged particles; the ability to fly at near light speeds through interstellar space and traverse hyperspace; and near total physical invulnerability

This is Firelord, he'll own Spidey, really bad.

Spider-Man did beat all of these people, and without his Cap Universe powers. He blasted Gravitron with one shot as Cap Universe, yes, but that's not the fight I'm talking about. I'm talking about when Gravvy was part of the "new" Sinister Six, and Spider-Man was able to outmaneuver and beat them ALL.

And he did beat everybody else on the list. We've already discussed some of those battles. Spider-Man beat Thanos while they fought over a Cosmic Cube. This was one of Thanos' earliest appearances. Eric Masterson said that Spider-Man was way too fast for him and Spider-Man was totally wearing him down. Masterson was starting to lose consciousness. etc. etc.

Originally posted by K3VIL
Spider-Man beat Graviton when he was Captain Universe mode on.
He never beat Thanos or the other guys on the list.
He fought with Titania and fall from the last floor of Dayli Bugle unhurted and he was starting to access to the Captain Universe power, he blasted Titania into oblivsion with a huge energy bolt.

This is Firelord, he'll own Spidey, really bad.


I agree. In a normal brawl for all type battle..Spidey goes down quickly, however, I believe demi introduced several stipulations within this battle..those being..

a) Spider Man gets 3 days prep
b) The battle takes place in Manhattan
c) Firelord has no knowledge of their prior battle...

With these rules in place..I definately give SM a much greater chance of winning this battle....it doesn't make it an auto win for him per say..however, his odds of winning greatly increase..

As for your objections to the list demi provided..the only people I'm not aware of him taking on without some assistance are Thanos, Loki, and Beta Ray Bill.

He fought Titania in an early issue of secret wars, without his cosmic powers, and whooped her good, as well as displayed a very good showing against both the Hulk and FF. (links to the summaries of Hulk and FF encounters can be found below)

SpiderMan vs Hulk

Spider Man vs FF

Needless to say..when going all out..the Wall Crawler has proven to be a very difficult opponent for many..

I mentioned Thanos a post ago. Loki was during the storyarc where they find his (Loki's) daughter. Loki tried to catch Spider-Man, but Spider-Man actually dodged all of his magic and hit him repeatedly. Loki didn't appear injured, but he was completely unable to hit Spider-Man with anything.

BRB was in the most recent issue of Stormbreaker, where they were portrayed as equals, exchanging blows on equal terms. In BRB's OWN BOOK!

Originally posted by K3VIL
Spider-Man's reflexes compared to those of Thor are pathetic.


Well you're half right..initially, Thor's reflexes/speed were portrayed to be that of a normal human..it wasn't until recent years that these abilities were amped up a bit..probably to put him more on par with another "Super" hero from another comic book universe.

Thor used to struggle getting his hands on Mongoose for Cripes sake!!! He is essentially "peak human" in all aspects..(speed, agility, reflexes..etc...)

Hell..he even stated in one issue that Mongoose was far too fast for him...anyway...Back on topic..SM's speed/agility are much much greater than that of a peake human, and it is highly believable that using a combination of his speed, agility, and precog..that he could evade stronger, much more powerful opponents...

That was what demi was talking about...

Originally posted by demigawd
I mentioned Thanos a post ago. Loki was during the storyarc where they find his (Loki's) daughter. Loki tried to catch Spider-Man, but Spider-Man actually dodged all of his magic and hit him repeatedly. Loki didn't appear injured, but he was completely unable to hit Spider-Man with anything.

BRB was in the most recent issue of Stormbreaker, where they were portrayed as equals, exchanging blows on equal terms. In BRB's OWN BOOK!

Interesting..But I'm starting to get a bit worried about Ol Petey...the fact that he's going toe to toe with Beta Ray is somewhat laughable...I definately don't want Marvel to do to him what they have done to Wolverine.....I'm still trying to get over the fact that the runt can now survive Ground Zero nuclear explosions...friggin ridiculous...lol...note to Marvel...keep it real guys..or else your dedicated fans are going to be leaving you soon..and you'll be stuck with fickle fanboys..whose "homoerotic love" for their favorite characters...fade as quickly as the setting sun..

Agreed...

Spiderman is like the only popular hero untainted as of yet...

This "when Spidey is all out he's untouchable" line, is a piece of rubbish as the "Thing has heart, he wins".
Loki has superhuman reflexes and reaction time, as all Asgardians, and are more than sufficient to hit Spider-Man, that was shooted from the Punisher and hitted from common human marksmen like Boomerang in the past, or Whiplash, or Goblin and Hobgoblin.
Spider-Man is just set in "pushover mode" from his writers to grant him fans and success.One issue he's struggling to beat down the human in costume known as Hobgoblin, the other he's going hth with a Sinister Six roster which comprend Graviton, a guy that was able to lift Manhattan, hold an Avengers roster at bay with ease, meanwhile blasting Thor with concussive force sufficient to destroy a mountain and increase gravity around him at the point the asgardian prince was barely able to move.
Graviton can stop Spider-Man just repelling him, not even waving his hands.
Spider-Man beating Firelord was to me, a child of 10years old when I read it, a no sense fight, cause I already known sufficient things of Marvel characters at that age to know Spidey beating Firelord was just a battle to give success to the wall crawler.

P.S. Spider-Man fist to fist with BRB in possess of a fraction of Odin Power?
Pathetic, Marvel is becoming ridicoulus.

I understand that, I just remember reading your posts.

Noone logical would agree on those victories.

I don't think spiderman is "untouchable" going all out, but he can slaughter many peak humans.

They do need to get rid of guys like Ock and Shocker, and give him villans that can hang with him.

Spiderman does get his ass handed regularly though.

Originally posted by demigawd
I find that fights rarely go that way, even in real life. That's why boxers have excuses all the time, lol. Should we dismiss a Spider-Man victory over the Hulk because Spider-Man threw the Hulk into a gamma generator that turned Hulk back into Banner? If that's the case, then shouldn't we also dismiss a Hulk victory over Gladiator because the Hulk kicked Gladiator into a nuclear reactor, which is Gladiator's weakness?



You ain't alone. But in Secret Wars, when Spider-Man broke Jean's TK hold on him...it happened, right? No outside tricks or anything. Acceptable? How's it different from the above Doom example



I brought up Slade for a reason. There are many (myself included) who don't believe Slade SHOULD keep up with light-speeders, even if he could see them with his special vision, because as fast as Slade is, he's still nowhere CLOSE to lightspeed. But he beat them...more than once. PIS, despite there being a track record?

Well I read the rest of this thread and noticed that a certain someone had dumbed down the conversation, so I decided to come back to this post.

Should we dismiss a Spiderman victory over Hulk because there was a gamma generator nearby? Do you really have to ask that question. Absolutley we should. Would you dismiss a Superman loss that happened at a kryptonite meteor landing sight? Would we dismiss an Aquaman fight that happened in the Sahara (if he even still has that weakness)? Isn't that a little too conveniant to you? Do you see where the term "plot induced" comes from. The writers can't come up with a better story and can't find a way around something so all of a sudden we're playing Bad Fur Day and we can expect to just waltz up to the "B" and get exactly the item we need?

That example is acceptable to the best of my knowledge.

Slade is many times faster than a human, and his reflexes are faster still. Not PIS by any means.

Originally posted by demigawd
Really? Strange gets ambushed and auto-shielded that often?



Portrayal often leads to results. That was my point. According to some posters here, writers portray Flash as needing to accelerate. I've read differently. Obviously these portrayed will influence the results. The former portrayal would cause Flash to credibly lose to Slade the way he did in Identity Crisis. The latter would make it impossible.



Last I checked, you can't swim in wet cement. But I guess that depends on where/when/how you hit the bottom, which I'd imagine there would have to be at some point.



Likewise, Warlock has taken a blast from Galactus, but Doom puts him down in one shot? Is the PIS Warlock surviving the blast from Galactus or Doom putting Warlock down in one shot? Or does Doom hit as hard as Galactus? Or is Galactus that weak?

In the case of Green Arrow, he exploited a specific weakness, which is what Spider-Man did to beat Hulk.



For all of them? Damn. That's a lot. I'm sure as the discussion expands more people will talk about specifics. Otherwise, I'll write when I wake up.

I'd say so.

No I have to disagree with you on this point. A killed B, those are results. A killed B badly, A killed B barely, that is all portrayal.

The way you talk about cement, you make it sound like Juggernaut is a human. Wasn't he like shin high in cement?

Puts him down? To what degree? Is it possible that Doom hit Warlock with something he was weaker against than the power cosmic (which I assume galactus was using.

Again, walk on top of the "B" and push "B" just ask Birdie, it's context sensitive.

"Thank you, don't mind if I do!"-Birdie

Originally posted by demigawd
Likewise, Warlock has taken a blast from Galactus, but Doom puts him down in one shot? Is the PIS Warlock surviving the blast from Galactus or Doom putting Warlock down in one shot? Or does Doom hit as hard as Galactus? Or is Galactus that weak?



Ok. Someone talking about PIS Warlock? Warlock is like a brother to me. So I have to stick up for him, like long sticks up for his dad Strange.

Warlock talking smack, then taking a blast from Big G point blank:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/sifu1/gblast1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/sifu1/gblast2.jpg

Making Mephisto wonder if it was wise to ever cross Warlock:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/sifu1/awar1.gif

Warlock with the Infinity Gauntlet:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/sifu1/war.gif
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/sifu1/wt1.gif

Warlock saving the day with Strange:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/sifu1/strange148ak.png

Warlock about to give Thanos his first death:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/sifu1/rd0404.jpg

Warlock saving the day again in THE END saga where talks Thanos into recreating everything he's destroyed:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/sifu1/Warlocksavingtheday1.bmp

Warlock is an enigma and his powers are also an enigma. Warlock getting thrashed by beings as like Thor and Hercules are PIS. Doom putting down Warlock with one blast is PIS. But who eventually retrieves the IG from Nebula??? Warlock. Warlock hangs with beings like Thanos, Magus, and the Infinity Thrall. Has an affinity to all six of the infinity gems, not just the soul gem. Warlock is the man!!!

Back to the topic, this is what Firelord's stats are and actually look like:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firelord

and here as well:

http://www.immortalthor.net/bio-firelord.html

Firelord should win this rematch. Should...

Originally posted by Sentry
Ok. Someone talking about PIS Warlock? Warlock is like a brother to me. So I have to stick up for him, like long sticks up for his dad Strange.

Warlock talking smack, then taking a blast from Big G point blank:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/sifu1/gblast1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/sifu1/gblast2.jpg

Making Mephisto wonder if it was wise to ever cross Warlock:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/sifu1/awar1.gif

Warlock with the Infinity Gauntlet:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/sifu1/war.gif
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/sifu1/wt1.gif

Warlock saving the day with Strange:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/sifu1/strange148ak.png

Warlock about to give Thanos his first death:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/sifu1/rd0404.jpg

Warlock saving the day again in THE END saga where talks Thanos into recreating everything he's destroyed:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/sifu1/Warlocksavingtheday1.bmp

Warlock is an enigma and his powers are also an enigma. Warlock getting thrashed by beings as like Thor and Hercules are PIS. Doom putting down Warlock with one blast is PIS. But who eventually retrieves the IG from Nebula??? Warlock. Warlock hangs with beings like Thanos, Magus, and the Infinity Thrall. Has an affinity to all six of the infinity gems, not just the soul gem. Warlock is the man!!!

Back to the topic, this is what Firelord's stats are and actually look like:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firelord

and here as well:

http://www.immortalthor.net/bio-firelord.html

Firelord should win this rematch. Should...
Should?He'll win with ease.
Great scans, altough it's not necessary showing who Warlock is, any people with some brain can understand that some of Spider-Man's victory are pushover.
And Warlock was blasted from Doom at point blank distance, full force, knowing who Doom is he'll not hold back to get the IG, but that was a weakned Warlock.

Weakened from what? Wasn't aware of that.

Originally posted by MERCILOUS
Should we dismiss a Spiderman victory over Hulk because there was a gamma generator nearby? Do you really have to ask that question. Absolutley we should. Would you dismiss a Superman loss that happened at a kryptonite meteor landing sight?

Would we dismiss an Aquaman fight that happened in the Sahara (if he even still has that weakness)? Isn't that a little too conveniant to you? Do you see where the term "plot induced" comes from. The writers can't come up with a better story and can't find a way around something so all of a sudden we're playing Bad Fur Day and we can expect to just waltz up to the "B" and get exactly the item we need?


The basic point being made is that events like this should be applied to debating..using "logical arguments." Usually these types of arguments consist of some sort of valid evidence which support them...such as combination of character stats and history.

Using this rationale...I believe it would be fair to state that it would be foolish to use the example below in a debate context...


Batman has taken a punch from Superman..therefore he can take a full force punch from Spider Man..


..based on the fact that it is very inconsistant with what we know of the charcter and his respective abilities/overall history.

However..it is "logical" to argue..that based on Batman's overall showing against opponents much more powerful than himself...that he is very resourceful, a great tactician..and given the right circumstances..it is very possible for him to overcome enemies that are much stronger and much more powerful than himself.

This same type of rationale can be applied to the SM "PIS" battles mentioned by Demi..and in actuality, SM's "PIS" is a lot more believable/consistant with his overall character than the Batman example given above. Read any of the summaries that I provided..or do some research on those stories that Demi mentioned in his original post. In all of them, I can guarantee you that SM uses his "known" abilities to overcome said opponents(ie Speed, webbing, precog, strength, etc..etc)

Hulk being knocked into a gamma generator, Superman being weakened by Kryptonite..etc..etc..are all plot devices...used to enhance story/battle..making both much more interesting. How many people would like to see a battle between Superman and Batman that lasted one page? Or read a Hulk and SM battle that lasted a panel...not many.

So when should we consider a plot device in a story PIS/CIS?
IMO..when its inconsistant with what a character's known abilities are, there is little or no character history supporting said plot device, and there is no "logical" reason/explanation given supporting said plot device.

How many times has Wolverine survived a nuke? Or Batman survived a non pulled punch to the head from Superman? Is it consistant with what Marvel/DC have stated each of these characters abilities are, or what they have been able to do in a majority of their comics? I don't mind a character getting an upgrade..but give me some sort of explanation as to why all of the sudden said character has this newfound ability.

Originally posted by whobdamandog
The basic point being made is that events like this should be applied to debating..using "logical arguments." Usually these types of arguments consist of some sort of valid evidence which support them...such as combination of character stats and history.

Using this rationale...I believe it would be fair to state that it would be foolish to use the example below in a debate context...


Batman has taken a punch from Superman..therefore he can take a full force punch from Spider Man..


..based on the fact that it is very inconsistant with what we know of the charcter and his respective abilities/overall history.

However..it is "logical" to argue..that based on Batman's overall showing against opponents much more powerful than himself...that he is very resourceful, a great tactician..and given the right circumstances..it is very possible for him to overcome enemies that are much stronger and much more powerful than himself.

This same type of rationale can be applied to the SM "PIS" battles mentioned by Demi..and in actuality, SM's "PIS" is a lot more believable/consistant with his overall character than the Batman example given above. Read any of the summaries that I provided..or do some research on those stories that Demi mentioned in his original post. In all of them, I can guarantee you that SM uses his "known" abilities to overcome said opponents(ie Speed, webbing, precog, strength, etc..etc)

Hulk being knocked into a gamma generator, Superman being weakened by Kryptonite..etc..etc..are all plot devices...used to enhance story/battle..making both much more interesting. How many people would like to see a battle between Superman and Batman that lasted one page? Or read a Hulk and SM battle that lasted a panel...not many.

So when should we consider a plot device in a story PIS/CIS?
IMO..when its inconsistant with what a character's known abilities are, there is little or no character history supporting said plot device, and there is no "logical" reason/explanation given supporting said plot device.

How many times has Wolverine survived a nuke? Or Batman survived a non pulled punch to the head from Superman? Is it consistant with what Marvel/DC have stated each of these characters abilities are, or what they have been able to do in a majority of their comics? I don't mind a character getting an upgrade..but give me some sort of explanation as to why all of the sudden said character has this newfound ability.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say, please clarify in a consice manner.

All I heard was "It's ok for the character to have exactly what he needs to beat the opposing character."

Not trying to be an *******, but I didn't understand the shit either.

Originally posted by long pig
Not trying to be an *******, but I didn't understand the shit either.

thanks long pig, I wasn't trying to rip on anyone that time so I'm glad you said something.

Originally posted by MERCILOUS
I'm not sure what you're trying to say, please clarify in a consice manner.

All I heard was "It's ok for the character to have exactly what he needs to beat the opposing character."

Concise response:

It's okay to use "PIS examples" to debate by..as long as they support a logical argument...

ie. Batman defeating Superman, KO'ing Hulk, etc...etc..can be used to support the logical argument that Batman is an extremely resourceful and very tactical opponent..Same type of argument can be used for Spider Man's "PIS" examples..


A Plot device should only be considered PIS/CIS, if no logical explanation is given to support it.

ie. Wolverine can now survive and regenerate from nuclear explosions..even though his history/stats have shown him to be ko'd by simple kicks, punches, or things much much much weaker. To my knowledge..no real explanation has ever been given regarding this upgrade. It's also been stated by Marvel that if he sustains sufficient damage to his internal organs..he can be killed.

Originally posted by whobdamandog
Concise response:

It's okay to use "PIS examples" to debate by..as long as they support a logical argument...

ie. Batman defeating Superman, KO'ing Hulk, etc...etc..can be used to support the logical argument that Batman is an extremely resourceful and very tactical opponent..Same type of argument can be used for Spider Man's "PIS" examples..


A Plot device should only be considered PIS/CIS, if no logical explanation is given to support it.

ie. Wolverine can now survive and regenerate from nuclear explosions..even though his history/stats have shown him to be ko'd by simple kicks, punches, or things much much much weaker. To my knowledge..no real explanation has ever been given regarding this upgrade. It's also been stated by Marvel that if he sustains sufficient damage to his internal organs..he can be killed.

Oh, well, I can actually get behind that.

Amazing..Mercilous..actually agrees with me..lol..

Now would you agree that it would be logical to assume that Spider Man could use a combination of his speed, reflexes, strength, webbing, tactical skill, resourcefullness...etc..etc..to overcome much more powerful opponents?

I actually love the Spiderman vs. Firelord issue. That's right, I said it.

I love it because Firelord by all rights should have won. Spidey knew it too. He spent most of the issue running away and baiting Firelord into traps and ambushes. Firelord was being (ahem) hotheaded and c.ocky. He was going to teach this insignificant whelp a lesson. FL got hit with a train, had a gas station blown up on him and other such big hits as he just kept taking them and going on about how it was hopeless. Finally, Spidey just looses it and freaks out on Firelord like Ralphie beating up the bully in "A Christmas Story." The panel has Firelord standing there with his hands over his face as Spidey is just a blur all around him. When the Avengers get there Cap has to pull him off of the stunned Firelord.

The point being: Firelord could have easily beaten Spiderman if he'd fought smart hadn't made it personal. He didn't. He was overconfident and sloppy. At the same time, Spiderman managed to play his best game long enough to overcome the superior foe.

For Spidey, it was USA vs USSR hockey at Lake Placid. For Firelord, it was Casey at the Bat. The unexpected upset, when written well (as opposed to say, Temujin beating up Iron-Man, curse you Grell), can make for one heck of a story.

Originally posted by Laminator_X
I actually love the Spiderman vs. Firelord issue. That's right, I said it.


I agree. It's also one of my favorite SM-fights (together with the Morlun-fight, the Professor Hulk fight and some others).

I have this feeling that LOTS of people here haven't read these two comics - in which a desperate SM gets chased all over NYC by Firelord - but that doesn't stop them to consider the story as crap writing.Their opinions come from hearsay...

The story was a bit exaggerated, but really not that much.

So he was indeed led into those traps, they weren't " outside factors" like some intend to help their arguments?

Originally posted by who?-kid


The story was a bit exaggerated, but really not that much.

Spider-Man defeated Firelord with his fists.

Good comic...but they overrated Spider-Man.

Originally posted by CorderaMitchell
So he was indeed led into those traps, they weren't " outside factors" like some intend to help their arguments?
SM set up at least three traps, but nothing worked. There were absolutely NO outside factors. Firelord was not weakened, not in the least, by those traps, and if he was, I challenge everybody to show me exactly when and where.

The last trap seemed to work because Firelord lay on the ground and didn't move anymore - he was hoping to lure SM, and it worked. When SM came near, Firelord stood up and said something like : you fool and SM realized he couldn't escape no more.

The rest is history

Oh yeah, see the scans of whobdamandog for more details.

Thanks for confirming that.

I remember you asking someone to prove that, and they never stepped forth.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Spider-Man defeated Firelord with his fists.

Good comic...but they overrated Spider-Man.
Back then - mid eighties I think - SM's powers were sort of consistent, if you know what I mean. Defalco is not known for screwing up his powers.

If you really want to know about his powers, I recommend the comic issues 240-300. That's of course only my opinion.

People never keep in mind that the writers and authors sacrifice some common sense with the abilities, to keep the plot moving.

Originally posted by who?-kid
SM set up at least three traps, but nothing worked. There were absolutely NO outside factors. Firelord was not weakened, not in the least, by those traps, and if he was, I challenge everybody to show me exactly when and where.

The last trap seemed to work because Firelord lay on the ground and didn't move anymore - he was hoping to lure SM, and it worked. When SM came near, Firelord stood up and said something like : you fool and SM realized he couldn't escape no more.

The rest is history

Oh yeah, see the scans of whobdamandog for more details.

Agreed....long time no see buddy..this thread is bringing back memories of the good ol historic Spidey vs Cap/Wolvie/DD thread..lol..to bad we don't have Scoobless/Jk/and Jinzin to argue with...especially Jk..I used to love tearing apart his posts..I believe he's been reincarnated as Creshrock, however, I might be wrong. Cresh if you read this your welcome to correct me..





.

ok, so a lot of really good posts and points here. Obviously, I can't respond to them all, but I agree with a lot of what's said.

Let's play a game. Spider-Man gets three days prep with unlimited raw materials for building equipment at his disposal (but he can only build things he's capable of building within the time frame), the fight takes place in NYC, and the characters are playing to their personalities (that means Silver Surfer is his usual pacifist self). Which Spider-Man victories could you accept against the following who have no prep:

Hulk
Juggernaut
Gravitron
Magneto
Silver Surfer
Adam Warlock
Titania
The Fantastic Four
Eric Masterson Thor
Firelord

someone's gonna say he couldn't beat ANY of them wothout a high degree of PIS involved . . .

hulk - with unlimited materials, i'd love to see him come up with a new impact webbing. with it, he could get in close to hulk and fire a couple down his throat and in his nose. when it hits, it expands, suffocating hulk. could hulk rip out his own throat? could he survive something like that? that's playing really dirty, but i wonder . . .

juggs - can't see a way for petey to do it. sealing him in a cement foundation wasn't really a win as much as it was a delaying tactic.

gravitron - not sure. nothing comes to mind unless he could somehow catch grav unawares.

current mags? can't see it. old mags - see gravitron

ss - no way

warlock - no way

titania - yes. the easiest of the bunch.

ff - if he could get them one on one somehow he might. he's beaten johnny. it'd be tough, but sm could conceiveably find a way. sue would be especially tricky.

thor - don't see it.

firelord - redundant. i accepted that he's done it once.

course, just cuz i can't see how he could win, doesn't mean some clever writer couldn't figure out a logical way. but the writer would have to be VERY clever indeed . . .

Originally posted by whobdamandog
Agreed....long time no see buddy..this thread is bringing back memories of the good ol historic Spidey vs Cap/Wolvie/DD thread..lol..to bad we don't have Scoobless/Jk/and Jinzin to argue with...especially Jk..I used to love tearing apart his posts..I believe he's been reincarnated as Creshrock, however, I might be wrong. Cresh if you read this your welcome to correct me..





.

I loved that thread, too bad he you won't argue wolverine vs spiderman.

Originally posted by demigawd
ok, so a lot of really good posts and points here. Obviously, I can't respond to them all, but I agree with a lot of what's said.

Let's play a game. Spider-Man gets three days prep with unlimited raw materials for building equipment at his disposal (but he can only build things he's capable of building within the time frame), the fight takes place in NYC, and the characters are playing to their personalities (that means Silver Surfer is his usual pacifist self). Which Spider-Man victories could you accept against the following who have no prep:

Hulk
Juggernaut
Gravitron
Magneto
Silver Surfer
Adam Warlock
Titania
The Fantastic Four
Eric Masterson Thor
Firelord


Hulk - Depends on which incarnation....if it was Savage..he'd have to get the drop on him quickly...once Savage becomes enraged..he ain't gonna be able to do much to him. If it happened to be the Professor or Gray hulk, I doubt it..both are way too crafty and intelligent.

Juggernaut - Sorry Spidey..but you are about to be squished...

Gravitron - Possible victory..but not very likely. Only way he's going to win is if he has a device with him that negates Gravitrons abilities..

Magneto - Same as above..

Silver Surfer - Norrin is much more even tempered than Firelord..and much more durable/powerful..Sorry Petey..but you don't stand a chance buddy...I don't care how many speedblitzes ya do..

Adam Warlock - It's possible..Warlock can be a bit arrogant at times..which can definately be used against him. Spidey could pull a Firelord type victory over him...

Titania - She goes down for a third time...Gotta remember..Spidey regulary takes on someone as strong as Titania...The Rhino..he's class 80 and has a near invulnerable hide. I believe he's actually KO'd Rhino several times..Titania goes down much quicker than Rhino..

Fantastic Four - Naaaaw..the first fight he took them by surprise..and the FF were a very new team at the time..Reed and the gang know him to well by now..they'd take him down..

Masterson Thor - Quite possible...He might even be the easiest person to beat on this list due to his inexperience. What issue was it that they fought again? I recall it being an issue with the Absorbing man. Anyway...Masterson himself stated that he could barely see Spider Man..and that Spidey's barrage of punches were really weakening him...if he could seperate Masterson from the hammer for 60 seconds..then the battle would be over very quickly.

Firelord - Ain't going to happen a second time...

That's my argument and I'm sticking to it..

Stan Lee cant bribe Firelord to throw the match like last time so Spidey's losing

indeed.

Originally posted by whobdamandog
Amazing..Mercilous..actually agrees with me..lol..

Now would you agree that it would be logical to assume that Spider Man could use a combination of his speed, reflexes, strength, webbing, tactical skill, resourcefullness...etc..etc..to overcome much more powerful opponents?

More powerful? It depends really. Some advantages are simply more important than others.

Originally posted by demigawd
ok, so a lot of really good posts and points here. Obviously, I can't respond to them all, but I agree with a lot of what's said.

Let's play a game. Spider-Man gets three days prep with unlimited raw materials for building equipment at his disposal (but he can only build things he's capable of building within the time frame), the fight takes place in NYC, and the characters are playing to their personalities (that means Silver Surfer is his usual pacifist self). Which Spider-Man victories could you accept against the following who have no prep:

Hulk
Juggernaut
Gravitron
Magneto
Silver Surfer
Adam Warlock
Titania
The Fantastic Four
Eric Masterson Thor
Firelord

And these characters don't get a similar advantage right?

I'd say

Hulk and Titania
don't know enough about Graviton to comment

Originally posted by demigawd
Let's play a game. Spider-Man gets three days prep with unlimited raw materials for building equipment at his disposal (but he can only build things he's capable of building within the time frame), the fight takes place in NYC, and the characters are playing to their personalities (that means Silver Surfer is his usual pacifist self). Which Spider-Man victories could you accept against the following who have no prep:

Hulk
SM has a chance, but a really small one. And which Hulk are we talking about ? Very important.

No chance to beat him

Depends, but I vote for Graviton

Magneto all the way

Well, he gave Surfer a hard time once, it was a great fight, but he lost of course. Still a great fight, but Surfer is too much to handle

Adam Warlock is one of those semi cosmic guys who pull new powers out of their ass every new comic. SM loses, but I don't care, cuz AW is boring as hell.

SM easily

SM only when he surprises them and takes out Sue first, but I don't see it happening.

Maybe.

Maybe.

Originally posted by demigawd
ok, so a lot of really good posts and points here. Obviously, I can't respond to them all, but I agree with a lot of what's said.

Let's play a game. Spider-Man gets three days prep with unlimited raw materials for building equipment at his disposal (but he can only build things he's capable of building within the time frame), the fight takes place in NYC, and the characters are playing to their personalities (that means Silver Surfer is his usual pacifist self). Which Spider-Man victories could you accept against the following who have no prep:

Hulk
Juggernaut
Gravitron
Magneto
Silver Surfer
Adam Warlock
Titania
The Fantastic Four
Eric Masterson Thor
Firelord
Hulk:
Spider-Man struggled to stop Professor Hulk in their last meeting, and when a gamma virus reverted to his old savage form the Professor, Spidey stated that Professor Hulk wasn really fast and hella strong.
He has no chance with Hulk, he'll fall down, soon or later.

Juggernaut
He beat him in a cheap way, that issue was so ridicoulus I've sell the comic book to a friend of mine.

Graviton
It's not even a fight.Graviton loses cause he let his enemies get close to him, in an excess of self confidence.When he fight focused and confident, he's on a god-like level.He can just stop Spidey and crush his internal organs with his powers or make his body explode or just suffocate him, it's not fun to see.

Magneto
See above.

Silver Surfer
He's above Spider-Man in every sector, not a fight.Spidey give him troubles cause after all writers must show fanboys Spidey has a chance.

Adam Warlock
See above

Titania
This girl is hella strong and durable and even when he was starting to tap in the Unipower of Captain Universe, Spide struggled to defeat her, then blasted her in an excess of rage.She can K.O. him if she doesn't act stupid.

FF4
Torch creates a fire cage, Ben punch Spidey, he can resist to certain level of heat, Susan blocks his arms and legs with his force fields, Reed suffocate him.

Masterson Thor
He has same Thor's abilities, the issue in which Spidey is giving hella fight to him is simply a piece of crap with circumstances created to show Spidey can smack down with everyone.That is pushover

Firelord
See SS comment

Strange, there seems to be some sort of "generally accepted" opinion here.

I'm glad most seem to be able to tell what a fight won on circumstance is compared to a fight on equal ground.

It seems there some degree of agreement among most people here. Interesting. Let's up the ante a bit. I'll start a new thread on a related topic...

Thanks everybody for your input. Great discussion!

Originally posted by demigawd
It seems there some degree of agreement among most people here. Interesting. Let's up the ante a bit. I'll start a new thread on a related topic...

Thanks everybody for your input. Great discussion!

I've enjoyed it.

You know what I didn't know before about the Spiderman vs. Firelord fight...

I didn't know that Spidey was enhanced and powered up by the venom symbiote. I had never seen the fight before, so I never knew that. I know that TECHNICALLY, Firelord should win, but the symbiote actually does change things a little. I mean, it increases his speed, strength, reflexes, agility, endurance, durability, awareness...EVERYTHING.

I'm just saying, Symbiote Spidey is much better than normal Spidey. It would really be something to reckon with I think.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
You know what I didn't know before about the Spiderman vs. Firelord fight...

I didn't know that Spidey was enhanced and powered up by the venom symbiote. I had never seen the fight before, so I never knew that. I know that TECHNICALLY, Firelord should win, but the symbiote actually does change things a little. I mean, it increases his speed, strength, reflexes, agility, endurance, durability, awareness...EVERYTHING.

I'm just saying, Symbiote Spidey is much better than normal Spidey. It would really be something to reckon with I think.
Sorry, but you are wrong. The Symbiote did not make SM faster or stronger or more durable. Not one bit.

It augmented Brocks strength and so, but not Spider-Man's. It's a mistake lots of people make, but again, the black suit (symbiote) did not make SM stronger or whatever. Not in the least.

Can you prove that? I'd love to know why. Seriously, not even being mean. I really would like to know. From everything I know about Spidey (not bragging, but I know quite a bit), the symbiote augmented him, too. But it also made him become more evil.

But really, if you have proof, I'll be glad to see it and and glad to change my decision as well.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Can you prove that? I'd love to know why. Seriously, not even being mean. I really would like to know. From everything I know about Spidey (not bragging, but I know quite a bit), the symbiote augmented him, too. But it also made him become more evil.

But really, if you have proof, I'll be glad to see it and and glad to change my decision as well.
Well, to be honest, I can't prove it. It's not like there is a comic where SM says : Hey, this new suit really doesn't make me stronger or faster or more durable

But I'll try it like this : I don't recall even one scene - comic - situation where anybody said that SM's powers were in some way augmented.

The only special "powers" his suit gave him, was some kind of filter against gasses and the fact it could change into his normal clothes. The symbiote augmented Brocks strength because Brock had no superpowers - lame excuse I know, but it is the truth.

But again, it's a typical mistake most people make. Other famous example : the Hulk originally was not green.

One sec though, in some examples it has made him stronger.

Not this one but it did in a few...

I'll be back in about 30 min.