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in order....someone lemme know im ignorant to comics i dont read em'...i jus like the characters and the movies

batman
daredevil
elektra
shang chi
karate kid
mantis
gamora
iron fist
lady shiva
ozmandias

add capt america cant forget cap

i wouldnt say cap is a martial artist. hes a great fighter with the striking power to humble most ppl, but im talking about ppl with muoltiple martial arts training.


if im wrong about cap, i gracefully retract my statement

ok...but yea whos better though in overall h2h combat...batman or captain america?

Originally posted by braz
in order....someone lemme know im ignorant to comics i dont read em'...i jus like the characters and the movies

In no particular order ....apart from the first spot (DC's Karate Kid is simply the best).

1) Karate Kid: Master of all styles, including intergalactic martial arts styles. HAs strength and speed factors from his training that are simply superhuman (even though they are from training he still managed to rough up pre-crisis Superboy, and has performed feats of skill that range from breaking metal to splintering spaceships).

2) Batman 1million: The batman from the far future. Seems like when DC writers were making him they took some parts from Karate Kid, since BM1M also has several extra-terrestrial martial arts. He even has disciplines that can steal your soul.

3) Shang Chi: Marvel's master of KungFu.

4) Richard Dragon: DC's answer to ShangChi. These two were supposed to be analogues of each other. R.Dragon was originally supposed to be a master of kungfu, but in the recent miniseries he was made a master of every single art (from Capoeira to muay thai), and they said he taught everyone from Batman to the League of Assassins.


5) Shiva: Martial arts in comics cannot be talked about without mentioning Shiva Woosan. At times hailed as the best 'normal' in DC ('abnormals' include KArate Kid and Batman 1 million, who might as well be unbeatable). She s good.

6) Cassandra Cain: The current batgirl has beaten Shiva. She is quite possibly the best 'normal,' with the ability to dodge bullets at point blank range through skill alone, and read an opponent's body perfectly (enabling her to know what they are going to do before thye do it). Even though she can now talk (she originally could only talk through 'violence'), she is still quite possibly the best.

7) Connor Hawke: The latest Green Arrow. Even though he is perfect with a bow, he is even better in unarmed martial arts. While he has never beaten Shiva Woo-san, and probably couldn't, he did fight her to a standstill. Something that basically makes him in the top echelon in DC. Even Richard Dragon said the kid had crazy talent.

8) Iron Fist: Even though this Marvel hero has quite possibly the most ridiculous costume ever (although 'Cosmic Spiderman's' costume probably wins here), he has amazing martial arts prowess.

9) Bruce Wayne: Batman is supposed, according to DC, to be a master in 127 styles of the martial arts. While at times his abilities fluctuate (for example he once beat Shiva with ease, and has been shown to dodge bullets like Cassandra Cain ....and one time he was even said to be better than Shiva but that he 'holds back' so he doesn't kill; and yet at other times he cannot even touch Shiva and Cassandra no matter how much he tries), it still remains that Batman is one of the best.

10) Elektra: Her abilities also fluctuate, with times havin abilities that seem to rival Cassandra Cain's, and at other times having difficulty finishing off Hand society Ninjas. All the same she is bloody good.

Now, there are others that are quite good.
For example take Gamora .....she should be just beneath Karate Kid, but her powers in the martial arts were enhanced by Thanos (i believe during the time Thanos had 'issues' with the Magus) and has a connection to the soul gem. While Karate Kid has insane abilities, they are still based on training not super-human power enhancements by Thanos and things to do with soul gems.

Mantis: Another one that should probably be just beneath Batman 1 million. The thing about her though is that she is far more than human. She is like a mix of superhuman, with plant-life (when she became some sort of plant goddess). Anyways, her abilities are good, but she has powers that kind of interfere with pure martial arts. But in martial arts alone she is supposed to be good, but sadly she has other powers as well.

I think spetznaz pretty much nailed it. I dunno if I would put Connor above Bruce and Iron Fist though.

Karate kid
ogun
lady shiva
batgirl
Captain America
Wolverine
then its bat man green arrow..

Stick would definitely be above Ironfist, likely, even above Shang Chi.

and champion.....

wolverine,captain america,ogun,stick,electra,batman,shiva ,DD, death stroke,shuing chi,ironfist, there just so many of them

Originally posted by wolverine8888
wolverine,captain america,ogun,stick,electra,batman,shiva ,DD, death stroke,shuing chi,ironfist, there just so many of them
champion, he'd wreck them all without powers.

love how u guys left out wolverine even thou in prue skill he ebat shung chi ass in seconds, he also defeated iron fist in a short amount of time

I don't know champion I like if some one could post a pic and a bio of him

Originally posted by wolverine8888
love how u guys left out wolverine even thou in prue skill he ebat shung chi ass in seconds, he also defeated iron fist in a short amount of time
and hes stale mated cap.....and ko'ed shatterstar 3 times, has beaten elktra 3 times, and KO'ed DD more than twice.....

Batman admitted somewhere that Connor was one of the few people who could whoop his ass in a straight up fight.

I would say that's a fair list spetznaz, there are some other, more obscure, fighting masters (Shen Kuei, Bengal), but they appear less and less as the years go by. Bengal was a particularly interesting character; sole survivor of his village in Vietnam that was wiped out by American military action, he trained from about 5 years of age to about 21 or so. He handed Daredevil his ass, and was slashing him up (he made a mistake of jumping into the trees so he could come back and attack anew, then Daredevil used his radar to find him and clock him in the head by throwing his billy club at him, otherwise DD would be done). Awhile ago in Marvel Knights Bengal threw down with Shang Chi, and Shang gave him some respect. Dagger intervened with some messed up Cloack-ish powers, so the fight was inconclusive.

Daredevil also has advanced ninja training, as does Bullseye. As some writers have written him, Moon Knight was also a very good fighter, having mastered and grown bored of boxing by 18, been a high level Marine until he got bored, then a CIA operative, then mercenary work, within those years he mastered Savate and other styles.

Armed fighting styles would go to Zaran the Weapons Master, as goofy as he is Batroc has given Cap and others trouble before. Can't forget Taskmaster or Karnak. Also Red Lotus, whose mutant power is kind of transcendental, he can intuitively understand fighting styles (much like Doug Ramsey could languages) and Nightthrasher has been shown to be quite adept. Black Panther can rip shit up, having taken down Wolverine, Iron Fist and others.

Height: 9 ft. 2 in.
Weight: 5,050 lbs.
Eyes: Silver
Hair: Red

Strength Level: The limits of the Champion's strength are not known. In Earth's gravity, he can lift (press) at least 100 tons. His strength derives from the channeling of cosmic energy for physical use.

Known Superhuman Powers: The Champion controls the power primordial, the energy derived from the Big Bang itself. He has channeled this power into the development of his physical form: his musculature, his reflexes, his stamina, and his strength, while the exercise of human strength taps electro-chemical energies of the complex molecules in the body, the Champion's strength taps cosmic nuclear energies. His physical strength is only determined by the amount of cosmic energy his finite form can contain. This limit has yet to be seen. He apparently never tires since his body has the ability to tap whatever energies it needs to recuperate. He cannot be hurt by any means short of molecular dispersion. Having channeled all of the cosmic energy as his command into making his body a perfect fighting machine, the Champion can no longer direct that energy from his body into force-blast as many other energy manipulators can.

Abilities: The Champion has mastered untold thousands of different martial arts and fighting styles culled from across the known Universe, and spends the majority of his time between championship matches practicing these arts.

Limitation: The Champion's limitations are not known.

black panther has never taken down wolverine. Just so u know they have only fought once and wolverine would of killed him if the thing had not shown up.

champion written right can wreck anyone in a fight

dam champion sounds ill

he is the man....but marvel writers screw him in the ass more than a 20year veteran of gay gang-bang porn

lol

People left Wolverine off for a good reason.

He just doesn't belong in the Top Ten for best martial artists.

You can attempt, and I do mean attempt, to counter me all you want. But it'll just be non-sensical jibberish to not only me, but most people.

Wolverine is good, but he's not Top Ten worthy.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
People left Wolverine off for a good reason.

He just doesn't belong in the Top Ten for best martial artists.

You can attempt, and I do mean attempt, to counter me all you want. But it'll just be non-sensical jibberish to not only me, but most people.

Wolverine is good, but he's not Top Ten worthy.
probably, he is in the top 10 fighters,
but MAists, maybe not.

name people more skilled then him maby I consider reading ur crap

Originally posted by wolverine8888
name people more skilled then him maby I consider reading ur crap
wolverine doesnt care about form, he cares about results.....thats all that really matters.

wolverine invented his own style of fighting bye using many other type a fighting in one. using precises attacks is far better more effective then being fancy

Originally posted by wolverine8888
name people more skilled then him maby I consider reading ur crap

Well, several people mentionned above have given Logan a run for his money, or even sometimes beaten him, even though he has superpowers and they don't.

It's a damn shame about Champion. He's Marvel's biggest badass, yet he's also Marvel's biggest patsy. His main role in stories is to be the fall guy to make the protagonist into a victorious underdog.

how about u name the people u are talking about bcause I disprove all of them already if im not mistaken

Originally posted by Laminator_X
Well, several people mentionned above have given Logan a run for his money, or even sometimes beaten him, even though he has superpowers and they don't.

It's a damn shame about Champion. He's Marvel's biggest badass, yet he's also Marvel's biggest patsy. His main role in stories is to be the fall guy to make the protagonist into a victorious underdog.

champion is so missused, its not even funny, he didnt even have his powers and was still winning most of the fight with she-hulk.

Oh I'm sure they're plenty of times where Wolvie's dropped some serious beatdown on these guys too, especially so in recent years. I think Marvel quietly replaced Logan with Fanboy Wolverine sometime around 1995 or so without making any official announcement. It just sort of happened one day during the laissez-faire editorial regime that preceded Quesada's reign and now they're all too embarrassed to talk about it.

My point is that Wolverine beating anybody we're discussing here doesn't really prove much in terms of MA prowess when he has a crazy healing factor , unbreakable bones, and an unwritten immunity to concussions and hydrostatic shock.

dude it a comic ur over thinking it and who says his healing factor does not take care of that in sconds also his body much more durable then a normal humans and it actauly diffrent in his build. shung chi did got beat in sconds from skill alone,wolverine beat electra with a sword when he was feral, when he killed ogun,when y defeated cyber,when he defeated rough house in hand to hand combat no claws all the time(rough house is in same strength level as colossus) the lsit cna keep gping on with him using skill to ddefeat his opponets. enother example when he beat x 23, also when he beat marrow ass

^ ionnno shyt about comics...but u gotta admit, wolverines pretty badass....and ive read on the internet profiles about him that say hes mastered virtually every fighting style on the planet with over hundreds of years of combat experience under his belt....but yes, he does have superpowers so its hard to say if he really is that good

no he realy is that good. and yes it true what they saidabout him know virtually mastered ever fighting style and having over 100 years and more of experience

Frankly, a "Martial Arts" contest where one guy doesn't tire, completely ignores pain, and can't be hurt by punches or kicks isn't much of a martial arts contest anymore.

Anybody else remember when being stabbed real good would put Logan down for a minute or two? I miss those days.

i dunno if id put shang chi and iron fist over batman


shang chi and bats may be equals....iron fist is not


and bats has whooped shiva barehanded when she had weapons

he is a badass

DareDevil takes this by a land slide none can beat him. None!

ya that was bad ass king kam

Stick is the only one who comes close to DD but he would be beaten.

Where's Azrael?

He schools the shit out of batman.

Then again, he's not normal. He's not even completely human. Hell, the guy went toe to toe with Deathstroke and kept in in a swordfight, even overpowered him, and showed to have a superior healing ability.

dude stick hands dd his ass when they have foughten stick trained dd. electra has hand dd his ass what are u talken about man dd level 5 fighter. wolverine and captain america are 7 which is max

That was a cool fight. Even without the Gauntlet Wolvie'd be hosed though. Eternals' healing makes wolverine look like a hemophiliac in comparison. Stabbing him right through the heart wouldn't kill Thanos, Mentor, or any of the Eternals of Earth.

Now when Thanos and Gamora sparred. That was cool.

That means nothing Wolverine will be lucky if he remembers who he is in ten years. DareDevil is much tougher and stronger then Wolverine.

Originally posted by Cosmo Kramer
That means nothing Wolverine will be lucky if he remembers who he is in ten years. DareDevil is much tougher and stronger then Wolverine.

Woah! Two competing fanboys on the same thread. Everybody duck!

what are u talken about lol. wolverine strength level of 4 daredevil is a 2 there a hgue diffrence there. also wolverine probly the toughest guy marvel ahs he been lit up in flames and just sould there not crying out in pain or anything so don't even try and say dd tougher thats a joke

TOTAL INCOHERENCE!

Maybe we need to have a "Wolverine vs. Bill Brasky" battle?

I cant understand what you wrote but I am sure it wouldnt have been wourth it anyway. DareDevil can jump from the rooftops of skyscrapers like it nothing. Wolverine jumps off a golf cart and he needs a five minute breather. I dont recall Wolverine ever bending steel either while DareDevil has and dont bring up the Origin of Wolverine I read that series and unfortunatly I wasnt impressed he sucks at fighting if it werent for his healing factor he would be dead long ago while DareDevil was never in a situation where he needed immediet healing. Why? Because he is better then Wolverine!

We also forgot the Mandarin's son, Temujin.

Loud Noises!!!

Killmonger!!!

1) KK-> Undisputed champion... What kind of person stalemates Superboy without powers? Friggin psycho.

2) Batman 1 Million-> Maybe it's because KK is all pre crisis, but even if he has learned thousands of martial arts from across the universe, KOing normal Batman and stealing his soul just isn't as impressive as shattering a gem that Superboy couldn't even dent. He's a pretty close second though.

3) Champion of the Universe-> The gigantic physical gap between Champion and the rest of the people of this list actually works against him here... He's gotta be ridiculously good, but he doesn't really ever exhibit pure skill showings. I'm gonna give him some massive benefit of the doubt and put him here.

4) Probably Mantis-> Has hurt some big kids like Thor and Juggernaut with pressure points alone. (don't ask how it worked on Juggs, it's comic book martial arts...) I think she somehow tripped the Runner too. That has to count for something.

I'm not too familiar with Gamora... I've heard things that should probably put her around here, but I've still got nothing.

5) Cassandra Cain-> Reads a person's stance and movement so as to predict their next moves. Usually does pretty well against Lady Shiva, which is why she's here.

6) Lady Shiva-> Her fighting skill is to the point that she no longer thinks about how she is going to beat a person, she thinks about which of the many ways that she could beat that person would look the coolest.

7) Shang Chi-> Kung Fu biatches. In pure skill, he's up there. Probably the best in Marvel next to Mantis and Gamora.

8) Batman-> Why? He's Batman. I'm talking proficiency here people. (it's why Cap won't be on the list... He's a great fighter, but Batman would own him pretty hard at sparring, as oppposed to real fighting) His level of skill fluctuates a lot, and the infinite chambers on his belt house any number of plot devices, but holding his own against Lady Shiva and beating up on Ra's Al Ghul are pretty impressive.

9) Green Arrow II-> Connor fought Shiva to a stalemate, but Batman's also probably fared that well against her. It's no small feat, but I just don't think it's really enough to put him above Bruce. Still damn good though.

10) Iron Fist-> Psychadellic costume, glowy hands. Pretty good even without the glowy hands.

I'm probably missing a lot of guys, like the ones SS posted, but I think my list's aight.

Karate kid would loose to Champion of the Universe quickly.

Originally posted by King KAM
Karate kid would loose to Champion of the Universe quickly.

Yowch, that's a tough one. On paper I'd have to go with Champion. As they're typically portrayed, Karate Kid.

Originally posted by King KAM
Karate kid would loose to Champion of the Universe quickly.

Not in a sparring match he wouldn't... Champ is a HELL of alot stronger and more durable, but KK's done some crazy shizit. Dodging near-light speed projectiles, punching through futuristic metal tanks, one-hit KOing like 35 guys in a row, with a punch, shattering a gem that Superboy couldn't do any noticable damage to. (that's PRE crisis Superboy) He put Superboy in a hold so that even his "millions of times better than yours" strength couldn't break out of it. And of course, even more than all of that.

Batman 1 Million has also been schooled in literally thousands of forms of martial arts. Champ might give him a little trouble in a sparring match, but nothing (from what I've seen) to really put the fear of God into him.

Often forgotten: Dr. Strange. He did the whole "Years of training in an Asian monastery" thing, and he and Wong spar daily.

The TICK !!! SPOOOOOOOOOOON !!

Human lite martial artists?

Karate Kid, altho he has superhuman level feats.

Richard Dragon (pre crisis and post crisis rep, hes better than Batman and everyone else, save perhaps Shiva, and considered pretty much THE martial artist/teacher of DC).

Shang Chi. The best pure empty hand martial artist of the Marvel Universe.

Bronze Tiger, Iron Fist, Shiva, Shen Kuei a.k.a The "Cat". (Slighty under the two above overall. They belong to the same ballpark. Just on different places of it).

Batgirl, Daredevil.

Connor Hawke, Black canary (Possibly, for what ive seen in BoP, shes tops).

And in case some are counting this and wondering where Batman is, ill say right away he doesnt make the top 10 for me.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
People left Wolverine off for a good reason.

He just doesn't belong in the Top Ten for best martial artists.

You can attempt, and I do mean attempt, to counter me all you want. But it'll just be non-sensical jibberish to not only me, but most people.

Wolverine is good, but he's not Top Ten worthy.

According to Marvel he is.

Originally posted by Laminator_X
Often forgotten: Dr. Strange. He did the whole "Years of training in an Asian monastery" thing, and he and Wong spar daily.


And he faught Mantis and Black Panther at the same time in h2h and held his own, even dodging Mantis' attacks which "only three others have done".

If it's not merely limited to human beings, then Wonder Woman and Hipployta are somewhere in the top ten.

Darkwing Duck, man! He even mastered the Belly Bounce! (to heck with mods who don't think DW is a comic character )

Batman is first for sure

then in a random order
Nightwing
Captian America

Darkwing was awesome! I can't believe no one figured out that he and Drake Mallard were the same guy.

For that matter, we don't want to forget that Howard the Duck is a Master of Quack-Fu!

If we're limiting to just humans, then the big list posted earlier was pretty good, if we are adding slightly above human, Azrael goes in ther right around Batgirl/shiva level.

People are adding Champion and Karate Kid so it can't just be limited to humans.

I only have intimate knowlege of DC, so I'm not even gonna try at Marvel's best:

Batman
Lady Shiva
David Cain
Karate Kid
Richard Dragon
Cass Cain

Only roughly in order...

Thing about WW is she just knows how to fight, it's not really martial arts per se.

I'll give this a shot.... bear in mind obscure Legion of Superhero characters from the Silver Age aren't exactly my major study, so I'll probably skip some dingbats that nobody born after 1980 knows about...

Understand that this goes in no particular order. These characters are simply the best.

1. Batman. 2. Lady Shiva. 3. Batgirl II. 4. Green Arrow II. 5. Black Panther. 6. Captain America. 7. Wolverine. 8. Elektra. 9. Shang Chi. 10. Richard Dragon.

Even though this makes it 11, I'd contend Iron Fist deserves a spot on there as well....

Originally posted by Draco69
If it's not merely limited to human beings, then Wonder Woman and Hipployta are somewhere in the top ten.

Wonder Woman is definitely not a martial artist...

Originally posted by Nataku8188
Thing about WW is she just knows how to fight, it's not really martial arts per se.

Originally posted by Esteemed Leader
Wonder Woman is definitely not a martial artist...

Have I taught thou nothing? She has several millenia mastering every form of martial arts there is. She mastered Akido and its various forms by age 3. She mastered swordplay by age 4. As she grew older, her marital arts library grew and grew.

Think about it. She's been trained by a war god with extensive knowledge of every form of martial combat there ever was and women from all across the globe with thousands of years of martial arts knowledge.

It's really no brainer.

She doesn't have much a chance to display it though. One hit usually implodes a man's head.

(it's why Cap won't be on the list... He's a great fighter, but Batman would own him pretty hard at sparring, as oppposed to real fighting)
^

could batman beat him either way or just sparring?

Originally posted by Draco69
Have I taught thou nothing? She has several millenia mastering every form of martial arts there is. She mastered Akido and its various forms by age 3. She mastered swordplay by age 4. As she grew older, her marital arts library grew and grew.

Think about it. She's been trained by a war god with extensive knowledge of every form of martial combat there ever was and women from all across the globe with thousands of years of martial arts knowledge.

It's really no brainer.

She doesn't have much a chance to display it though. One hit usually implodes a man's head.

Never read a WW comic in my life and never really seen you talk about her. I'll take your word for it.

Originally posted by braz
(it's why Cap won't be on the list... He's a great fighter, but Batman would own him pretty hard at sparring, as oppposed to real fighting)
^

could batman beat him either way or just sparring?

Just sparring. In a real fight, Cap would win.

It should just involve people w/no physical superpowers. No DS, No Wolvie. No Champ or KK. No Bats 1mill. BTW, Wolvie has the talent, he just doesn't need to use it all the time because he's a rock. Anyway, pure h2h(no weapons or armor), I think Taskmaster'd beat them all down.

"People are adding Champion and Karate Kid so it can't just be limited to humans."

KK is human. He is the closest thing to Dragonball stuff you have at comics, a human doing metahuman stuff in martial arts.

"Wonder Woman is definitely not a martial artist"

She is yes. The powered one of the top better at it in fact.

KK is the best there is if you gave him powers he would probably be virtually impossible to defeat physically.

Batman is top 3 at least. The rest of the list is debateable.

He is not even top 3 at DC nevermind when you add the Marvel guys.

Who's better in DC ..?

Richard Dragon

Bronze Tiger

Shiva

Cassie

and possibly Connor Hawke after his fight with Shiva.

Cassie hasn't been quite as good since she learned to talk... and I don't even believe she was in Batman's level before that.. close, but not quite. Joker kicked her ass in a hand to hand fight.
Batman has beaten Shiva.
Connor is definately way out of the way, as even his own father proved time and time again to be better hand to hand... Solomon Grundy anyone?
It's also a well known fact that Batman has surpassed all of his trainers. Wildcat, Shiva, Al Ghul and Cain to name a few.. I would include Dragon in there too.


And opposed to what the guy said earlier about Batman knowing 127 Martial Arts, The Batman Handbook states Batman is a renowned master of ALL world martial arts.

"Cassie hasn't been quite as good since she learned to talk... and I don't even believe she was in Batman's level before that.. close, but not quite. Joker kicked her ass in a hand to hand fight."

Overall she is still on a league above. Im counting her confrontations with Batman and Shiva, both clean and objective showings that makes her better. Now if she gets more low showings its something else.

"Batman has beaten Shiva"

On a clean fight? He never did as far as i know. You are probably reffering to the Superman/Batman tussle, where she was being mind controlled.

"Connor is definately way out of the way, as even his own father proved time and time again to be better hand to hand... Solomon Grundy anyone"

Groundy isent always top level. He fluctuates way too much. Ollie isent and never was better than his son in that department, Connor showed what he knows with the fight he gave to Shiva. His dad is the best archer by far and knows moves but compared with these guys hes mostly a brawler.

"It's also a well known fact that Batman has surpassed all of his trainers. Wildcat, Shiva, Al Ghul and Cain to name a few.. I would include Dragon in there too."

That would be wrong, pre crisis wise and post crisis, he was never considered better or equal than Dragon. Not even Bronze Tiger.

Batman once attacked him and Dragon who was on the defensive blocked easily three straight attacks. He also defeated once an amped martial artist that Bruce couldnt. Hes on a league above.

Bronze Tiger also has a clean record. One win and one brief stalemate.

"And opposed to what the guy said earlier about Batman knowing 127 Martial Arts, The Batman Handbook states Batman is a renowned master of ALL world martial arts"

Many guys in comics are referenced that way. KK, Dragon, Shang Shi, just to name some.

You see that disc I just uploaded? It contained all the fighting information of the world's very top martial artists. .... One of them is you.


Batgirl got beat up by JOKER IN A HAND TO HAND FIGHT.
The only she was able to beat Shiva, was because Shiva had a deathwish and wanted Batgirl to fulfill it. Also, it's still not clear or not, but she may very well be her mother.


Connor is nowhere near the top of the list, one random decent showing does not factor in when Connor has been getting his ass kicked even by throwaway villains.. for most of the last 10 years. He's not even on Arsenals level, who is deathly afraid of Batman.

"Batgirl got beat up by JOKER IN A HAND TO HAND FIGHT.
The only she was able to beat Shiva, was because Shiva had a deathwish and wanted Batgirl to fulfill it. Also, it's still not clear or not, but she may very well be her mother."

Shiva and Cassie had two fights that im aware of. She did well on both. Against Batman she was getting the better h2h. One low showing from a guy that has also been able to hurt Batman before doesnt undue what she done before. Not yet at least.

"Connor is nowhere near the top of the list, one random decent showing does not factor in when Connor has been getting his ass kicked even by throwaway villains.. for most of the last 10 years. He's not even on Arsenals level, who is deathly afraid of Batman."

Like Batman never had problems with tugs.

He has way higher h2h showings than Arsenal does. Arsenal has no bussines here.

Azrael soundly kicked Bats ass.

Originally posted by Nataku8188
Azrael soundly kicked Bats ass. Batman made him cry. Pussy.

Originally posted by Juntai
Batman made him cry. Pussy.

Azrael saved batmans life after kicking his ass so badly it was shameful.

Originally posted by Nataku8188
Azrael saved batmans life after kicking his ass so badly it was shameful. Lol... then tell us what happened in Legends of the Dark Knight 63.

The mentally Fed up Azbats? Batman tricked him because he knew he wouldn't win in a fight.

How about in Azrael 99? Where Azrael kicks batmans ass so bad it's pitiful?

Don't say it's cause it was in an Azrael comic, Dennis O'neil was editor for Batman long before he wrote Azrael.

Sorry for the double post, but here's Batman getting his ass kicked.

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/2794/12sd1.th.jpg
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/3977/23ub.th.jpg
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/5729/38be.th.jpg
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/6138/46xl.th.jpg
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/9906/51bw.th.jpg
http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/7428/60eu.th.jpg
http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/1020/72zh.th.jpg
http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/569/87mw.th.jpg

Next?

Crap. Azrael beat the hell out of him. Bats didn't have a chance in that match.

That was awesome.

What a cool character.

ya but it seems like it was more power then skill batman hit him more times just had no effect.

Well Karate Kid was trained by Mr.Miyagi himself so I know no one can top him

Originally posted by Draco69
Have I taught thou nothing? She has several millenia mastering every form of martial arts there is. She mastered Akido and its various forms by age 3. She mastered swordplay by age 4. As she grew older, her marital arts library grew and grew.

Think about it. She's been trained by a war god with extensive knowledge of every form of martial combat there ever was and women from all across the globe with thousands of years of martial arts knowledge.

It's really no brainer.

She doesn't have much a chance to display it though. One hit usually implodes a man's head.

Too true Draco I've always thought it was a shame she never gets to really use her skills and that even though she's been trained by Ares, Athena and Artemis people somehow think Batman or Deathstroke are more skilled they aren't.

Why are people listing two Batmans?

Originally posted by wolverine8888
ya but it seems like it was more power then skill batman hit him more times just had no effect.

Although it's not shown, Azrael had just finished fighting the spirit of St. Dumas, his patron saint. He was also supposed to be dead, according to the doctors and Batman.

"Too true Draco I've always thought it was a shame she never gets to really use her skills and that even though she's been trained by Ares, Athena and Artemis people somehow think Batman or Deathstroke are more skilled they aren't. "

Dig out more of her appearances- from Batman to Deathstroke and Black Canary to Superman she is one of the top " bricks" that regulary shows more skills.

"Why are people listing two Batmans"

Because regular Bats doesnt cut it to the top.

eye

Some comic martial artsists:

Originally posted by Juntai


And opposed to what the guy said earlier about Batman knowing 127 Martial Arts, The Batman Handbook states Batman is a renowned master of ALL world martial arts.

No offence, but if you read 'Batman: The Ultimate Guide to the Dark Knight' it states "There are 127 major styles of combat. While abroad, Bruce learned them all, from Aikido to Yaw-Yan."

He LEARNED them; he didn't MASTER anything. It takes many years to master even a single martial art; there is no way he could have mastered all of them (as well as all the other things he suposedly 'mastered'). He'd have to be inhuman to do that. He just learned enough of each to be effective.

Besides, how is he supposed to find time to keep up his practice on 127 styles?

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Besides, how is he supposed to find time to keep up his practice on 127 styles?

He gave up mastrubation. With someone under his level of stress, I'm sure sacrificing mastrubation would give him plenty of time to practice.

Originally posted by Nataku8188
He gave up mastrubation. With someone under his level of stress, I'm sure sacrificing mastrubation would give him plenty of time to practice.

That's masTURbation, thank you.

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
That's masTURbation, thank you.

You're welcome.

Originally posted by olympian
"Too true Draco I've always thought it was a shame she never gets to really use her skills and that even though she's been trained by Ares, Athena and Artemis people somehow think Batman or Deathstroke are more skilled they aren't. "

Dig out more of her appearances- from Batman to Deathstroke and Black Canary to Superman she is one of the top " bricks" that regulary shows more skills.

"Why are people listing two Batmans"

Because regular Bats doesnt cut it to the top.

eye


Funny thing the day after I posted this reply I ended up reading a comic in which she totally owned bats but, you still have to admit the for some very odd reason people would still consider bats the top martial artist in DCU.

Originally posted by Nataku8188
He gave up mastrubation. With someone under his level of stress, I'm sure sacrificing mastrubation would give him plenty of time to practice.

And he's been making up for it ever since by getting tail from Catwoman to Poison Ivy to Wonder Woman.

Originally posted by Marvel=DC
And he's been making up for it ever since by getting tail from Catwoman to Poison Ivy to Wonder Woman.

No way the guy has much time for ACTUAL sex.

I think deprivation is part of where he gets his rage.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
No offence, but if you read 'Batman: The Ultimate Guide to the Dark Knight' it states "There are 127 major styles of combat. While abroad, Bruce learned them all, from Aikido to Yaw-Yan."

He LEARNED them; he didn't MASTER anything. It takes many years to master even a single martial art; there is no way he could have mastered all of them (as well as all the other things he suposedly 'mastered'). He'd have to be inhuman to do that. He just learned enough of each to be effective.

Besides, how is he supposed to find time to keep up his practice on 127 styles? In The Batman Handbook: The Ultimate Training Manual. It says Batman knows EVERY martial art.

in any order:

captain america
ogun
wolverine
batman
lady shiva
batgirl
shang chi
karate kid
champion
iron fist

* Not in any specific order.
DC:
lady shiva
deathstroke
batgirl
azrael
batman

Marvel:
Black Panther
Wolverine
Iron Fist
Shang Chi
Captain America

Originally posted by Juntai
In The Batman Handbook: The Ultimate Training Manual. It says Batman knows EVERY martial art.

Isn't there a difference between knowing and mastering? I'm inclined to agree with the monkey. Batman would need to have many years past what he's capable of to truly master even a single martial art regardless of how dedicated and head strong he is. Aside from that he'd have to spend every waking moment attending his martial arts while giving up being Bruce Wayne to practice them thoroughly.

Marvel Top Fighters
Wolverine
Iron Fist
Captain America
Black Panther
DeadPool
Shang Chi
Namora
Champion of The Universe
DareDevil
Gilmonger


Dc Top fighters:

Batman
Deathstroke
Nightwing
Batgirl
Lady Shiva
David Cain
Karate Kid

Nightwing doesn't belong in there. you forgot Richard Dragon, and the Green Arrow's son.

Originally posted by Superherovandal
Nightwing doesn't belong in there. you forgot Richard Dragon, and the Green Arrow's son. R. Dragon got killed by Lady Shiva. And Green Arrows son had one lucky showing, not very impressive. NW and Arsenal are typically written as much better martial artists.

Originally posted by Namor
Isn't there a difference between knowing and mastering? I'm inclined to agree with the monkey. Batman would need to have many years past what he's capable of to truly master even a single martial art regardless of how dedicated and head strong he is. Aside from that he'd have to spend every waking moment attending his martial arts while giving up being Bruce Wayne to practice them thoroughly.

I also agree. And there's such a thing as quality over quantity anyway. It's much more useful to have a handful of solid moves perfected to the point that they're instinctual for you than it is to "sort of" know 30 different ways to respond to an attack. What good is that anyway?? You can still only ACTUALLY respond one way, and if you have so many different ways under your belt that you hesitate while trying to decide what to do, you're more screwed than if you weren't trained at all!

Originally posted by Orestes
I also agree. And there's such a thing as quality over quantity anyway. It's much more useful to have a handful of solid moves perfected to the point that they're instinctual for you than it is to "sort of" know 30 different ways to respond to an attack. What good is that anyway?? You can still only ACTUALLY respond one way, and if you have so many different ways under your belt that you hesitate while trying to decide what to do, you're more screwed than if you weren't trained at all! Irrelivent, Batman calculates all possible moves instantaneously. He's been shown doing this, for example in one comic, being on the ground he heard the click of a gun-hammer at the back of his head and instantly thought "There's (so and so) moves I can do from this position" and then even broke it down into types of moves and results before the guy could pull the trigger. Batman does everything to perfection.. Green Arrow joked that he probably knew how many types of pain there is in the universe, and he gave a straight up number without missing a beat..

As much of a perfectionist as Batman might be he's still only human. I agree he might be able to calculate VARIOUS possibilities but not ALL of them instantanelously. That's ridiculous. He doesn't have the capacity to calculate EVERY SINGLE DETAIL. Perhaps he could decide on which might be the most likely out of a chosen few and make a rational decision from that but to suggest otherwise would imply that Bruce Wayne is more than super-human, which we all know he isn't.

Batman might know the best of various martial arts and understand their mechanics but has he really mastered them all to perfection? If he has then he should have never been defeated by say; Batgirl or Azrael, right?

Originally posted by Namor
As much of a perfectionist as Batman might be he's still only human. I agree he might be able to calculate VARIOUS possibilities but not ALL of them instantanelously. That's ridiculous. He doesn't have the capacity to calculate EVERY SINGLE DETAIL. Perhaps he could decide on which might be the most likely out of a chosen few and make a rational decision from that but to suggest otherwise would imply that Bruce Wayne is more than super-human, which we all know he isn't.

Batman might know the best of various martial arts and understand their mechanics but has he really mastered them all to perfection? If he has then he should have never been defeated by say; Batgirl or Azrael? Batman in the comics is well above human level has been documented, no human could trade blows with Superman, outmanuever Flash or beat up Wonderwoman, Batman does all these things.



Batman can caculate every single detail.
Do you need more evidence?
In another comic,during Green Arrows re-emergence, he saw a PICTURE of an arrow stuck in a wall, and INSTANTLY determed the angle velocity which way it spun, and every other variable, and narrowed it down to a character who had been dead for half a decade.

Originally posted by cheldon
in any order:

captain america
ogun
wolverine
batman
lady shiva
batgirl
shang chi
karate kid
champion
iron fist
are u smoking or u just dont no bout karate kid in order from ur list

Karate kid = bets them all badly
champion
lady shiva
wolverine
batman = batman is a better fighter the cap but cap is stronger faster and morw durable that the onlu reason why he barley bets batman IMO
captain america
shang chi = master of kun fu
iron fist

Hail to the God-Like Batman who trades blows with SUPERMAN and calculates EVERY SINGLE DETAIL in every single situation he fights in! Hail I say!

Originally posted by supremthor
are u smoking or u just dont no bout karate kid in order from ur list

iron fist His clearly said no order.

Originally posted by Namor
Hail to the God-Like Batman who trades blows with SUPERMAN and calculates EVERY SINGLE DETAIL in every single situation he fights in! Hail I say! I was giving that as an example, most everyone he fights outside a couple of the crazy Gothamites are well into Superhuman Strength and Speed, are they not? They are! Even Azreal is, Clayface is, Bane is, Deathstroke is. . . These are not people an average person could fight. Batman can.


But, he does analyze every detail.

we all know he's talking about Batman A.

who happens to be a trademark of BS Comics Inc. So don't any of you try and steal him.

Originally posted by Superherovandal
we all know he's talking about Batman A. I'm talking about comic book Batman, AKA, not movie Batman. The comics are the median in which we argue, and Batman consistantly shows he can beat those with superhuman speed and strength, granted I did mention a couple of the high end spectrum feats.. but they are just that.. high end. Surfer high end went at it with Tyrant, Tyrant high end rivalled Galactus.. Does this make sense?

"R. Dragon got killed by Lady Shiva"

Did you even read the issue?

Batman is not on par with those two. Neither with Bronze Tiger. Never has.

"And Green Arrows son had one lucky showing, not very impressive."

Do you know who got owned in the issue Connor fought Shiva?

Grayson. Like always.

"NW and Arsenal are typically written as much better martial artists"

So whose major martial artist with a rep did they stand upon?

Originally posted by olympian
Do you know who got owned in the issue Connor fought Shiva?

Grayson. Like always.

"NW and Arsenal are typically written as much better martial artists"

So whose major martial artist with a rep did they stand upon? Like I said---NW and Arsenal are typically written as much better martial artists.


Everyone has feats, some people have hundreds that get disregarded but Connor goes at it with Shiva and all of sudden he's the dopest martial artist after years of getting his ass kicked? Get the **** out of here.

Well whether people like it or not Bats probably will top the list thanks to the "Bat Factor" that some how enables him to win against high powered foes by making the foes act like complete idiots who've never fought before in their lives.

and as I remember correctly isn't Connor's ability to remember and instantly be able to copy any move he sees? either way he still loses he can't hang with the veterans.

See, we all know to disregard what Juntai says because he's just a Batman fanboy.

Oops, I said that out loud. Oh wait, I meant to. Nevermind then.

Ohhh... Ohh... Ohhhhhh...

:: insert customary instigation comment here. ::

"Like I said---NW and Arsenal are typically written as much better martial artists."

I ask you again. What has Arsenal has ever done impressive at martial arts? You know who is below the guys i said that are better than him? The Question. Savante. Huntress. Wildcat.

"Everyone has feats, some people have hundreds that get disregarded but Connor goes at it with Shiva and all of sudden he's the dopest martial artist after years of getting his ass kicked? Get the **** out of here."

After, im fine here right now.

What years of ass wooping did Connor had since the guy who made him an uber MA at DC was the same who created him.

Im talking about -martial arts abilities- here. Connor doesnt fight every opponent with it does he. Neither does Batman.

"all of a sudden" doesnt make it less viable. Or are you going to argue that Abomination once wasent stronger than the Hulk because he beat him in theyr first match ever. Wasent that viable to you?

Connor at MA for what its been showed, its better than either the two. Grayson never did anything against Shiva of mention either than getting kicked around. Arsenal even less.

Originally posted by olympian
"Like I said---NW and Arsenal are typically written as much better martial artists."

I ask you again. What has Arsenal has ever done impressive at martial arts? You know who is below the guys i said that are better than him? The Question. Savante. Huntress. Wildcat.

"Everyone has feats, some people have hundreds that get disregarded but Connor goes at it with Shiva and all of sudden he's the dopest martial artist after years of getting his ass kicked? Get the **** out of here."

After, im fine here right now.

What years of ass wooping did Connor had since the guy who made him an uber MA at DC was the same who created him.

Im talking about -martial arts abilities- here. Connor doesnt fight every opponent with it does he. Neither does Batman.

"all of a sudden" doesnt make it less viable. Or are you going to argue that Abomination once wasent stronger than the Hulk because he beat him in theyr first match ever. Wasent that viable to you?

Connor at MA for what its been showed, its better than either the two. Grayson never did anything against Shiva of mention either than getting kicked around. Arsenal even less.


Don't bother arguing about Arsenal cause he's not even gonna make the list.

Im actually surprised someone even mentions Arsenal when even Grayson who is much better than him doesnt cut it.

Captain America is better than Batman physically but in Martial art skills Batman is better. Batman has shown numerous deadly death tactic that rivals even Shiva's leopard blow. But he does not uses it. Batgirl is quite uneven in her fights. She beat Shiva but Shiva had a emotional problem that time. Batman fought Batgirl to a standstill while Cass had her bloodlust on too.

Shang Chi put Spider Man in a choke hold, a feat easier said than done by mere human standards.

He also fought Thing to a stalemate.

Lady shiva,bat girl, karate kid, deathstroke, Batman, random people then other people. <<<DC universe

DC has better martial artist than marvel. They do well in those stuff.

This list should be limited to normal not enhanced of any kind. Azrael was enhanced but Batman still beat him in the Knightfall saga

Let the enhanced humans stay besides the top tier martial artist have been able to take it to them on a regular basis.



Come now has it gotten to that point where we do not accept facts simply becasue we do not agree with it. Or do we just call them fanboys simply beacuse they have stomped us in every way imaginable (Well at least in this particular case).....

karate kid, shang chi,, stick n master r my choice of the most skilled

Originally posted by Adam Warlock
Shang Chi put Spider Man in a choke hold, a feat easier said than done by mere human standards.
Damn! Did he win?

My lists......Human only

1) Richard Dragon/Shang Chi/Temugin (could be seperated by mere margin)
2)Lady Shiva
3)Batman/Hawke Connor/ Bronze Tiger (could be seperated by mere margin)
4) Batgirl II

Originally posted by joesha28
This list should be limited to normal not enhanced of any kind. Azrael was enhanced but Batman still beat him in the Knightfall saga

Batman outsmarted him, he avoided confrontation. Get it right.

Hmmm than why did he went back being Azrael due to Humilation?

No, his brainwashing had him all F*cked up. He just... sort of broke.

Batman>Captain America martial arts

Originally posted by braz
Batman>Captain America martial arts uhhhh.....no

1. Champion
2. Karate Kid
3. Batman 1 Million
4. Iron Fist
5. Shang-Chi
6. Richard Dragon
7. Bronze Tiger
8. Stick
9. Lady Shiva
10. Batgirl (Cassandra)

This is completely imo...

Originally posted by batdude123
1. Champion
2. Karate Kid
3. Batman 1 Million
4. Iron Fist
5. Shang-Chi
6. Richard Dragon
7. Bronze Tiger
8. Stick
9. Lady Shiva
10. Batgirl (Cassandra)

This is completely imo... that list is all wrong.....cap is number one.....duh