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Multiple universes and multiple multiverses which house these universes, in every universe there is a version of each being, abstract and entity, which has been shown in certain comics that each universe has its own abstracts; shown in the Korvac what if. Except for a few, Living Tribunal, TOAA, the phoenix force, now if Living Tribunal is above all universes, multiverses, alternate realities, what if universes, and existences, then that would mean their is only one Living Tribunal but omni like. If this is so then that means the Living Tribunal showed in all comics including what if's is canon showing of Living Tribunal since he is above all of these universes and multiverses and their is only one of him meaning the one Living Tribunal showing must be the Living Tribunal. This brings me to my next point

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/2908/ltphoenix5jpg9ob.png

From: "What If the X-Men lost Inferno"

Living Tribunal is shown to be holding the Phoenix as a mere object or a Child's toy, now if Phoenix is above reality constraints then that means that their is only one phoenix not multiple phoenix's, not one for each universe. If this is true that the Phoenix force is Omni like then then that means that there is only one phoenix force just as their is only one Living Tribunal. The Living Tribunal is shown to be able to wield it and hold it like a mere object. Now if their are multiple phoenix's, one for each respected reality and universe, then that means the Phoenix force is not omni like. If you claim that it is only a what if and thus is not canon, then you should know that LT is above all Marvel multiverses including What if's meaning his showings are canon since their is only one LT and that is him. Now if Phoenix is weaker in a what if, then that means she is not Omni like, for if the phoenix force was purely Omni then it would be unlimited and unrestrained no matter what dimension or universe it is in, but clearly it is not here.

The Phoenix force is not the most powerful force in existence, nor do I believe that it is second. If the Living Tribunal is above the Phoenix Force, then that means those above the Living Tribunal are above the Phoenix Force, thus Korvac of the alternate dimension which out powered the Living Tribunal is arguably more powerful then the Phoenix Force, the HOTU which defeated the Living Tribunal is more powerful then the Phoenix Force, the IG which the Living Tribunal was not sure if it could defeat him or not, thus would be more powerful then the phoenix Force.

So many feats brought up in favor of the Phoenix Force, yet the Phoenix force never did anything to save the multiverse when it was threatened by the HOTU or the IG, one could argue it was purely because the Phoenix Force saw it as nothing but child's play, but I believe that to be untrue. The Living Tribunal steped up to defend the Marvel Multiverses, but did the phoenix force, no it did not. Thanos even made it to TOAA and stalemated him. The Phoenix force was helpless to do anything against Thanos and the HOTU. If it took TOAA to undo what Thanos did, and in doing so TOAA burning out his powers, then thinking that the Phoenix Force is more powerful then such I find to be untrue.

Claiming that the Phoenix force is this fundamental force of creation and thus is master of all created, but know this that creation only extends to what you take part in creating, the phoenix may be a force of creation, but when you take it to a level of thinking forces become thoughts and emotions of some one much more powerful and beyond the imagination and thought of the one created.

Point being, the Phoenix force is not the most powerful force in Marvel, nor do I believe it to be the second, or the third, or the fourth.

Oh boy...

the LT never did either, Pheonix was shown to be beyond the reach of the chaos wave in the house of M story arcs there are pheonix avatars in the universes the main force has to act through them but they have only a small portion of the pheonix force just like darkseid has avatars that can be defeated while he himself has never been defeated the PF works the same Eternity himself stated that the LT was one of the ones that the PF has jurisdiction over when destroying or creating a universe, the LT has been shown to be defied by ONE sorcerer Supreme, and Korvac who was only more powerful then eternity, the LT has also doubted his power against the IG which is only powerful in ONE universe as seen in JLA/Avengers. The LT may have held the PF in that universe all that can tell me is that that PF avatar was not that powerful they are all at diffrent levels rachal summers is said to be nothing compared to jean as an avatar thus is my point in comparing universe avatars, in one universe the goblin force absorbed the PF and in 616 galactus has been shown to stalemate it i believe but i also believe later he was shown to be scared of it. Meaning when that happend whoever the avatar was must have just reached a greater level of controll over that avatar, avatars dont need the LT to defeat them even Xorn has killed one but not the PF itself the PF must act through MORTAL avatars that are supeptible to death the PF would choose ANOTHER avatar later.

Phoenix was not shown to be beyond the reach of the chaos wave, that is speculation.

Also as stated, their is a avatar for the Phoenix Force in each Universe, meaning that the phoenix force is powerless to act without an avatar. As you said yourself the IG has control over the universe it is of thus it would have controlf over the phoenix avatar of that respected universe.

Eternity can state that the Phoenix Force is more powerful then TOAA but does that make it true, no it does not. Eternity's superior is LT as shown in the comic in which LT is passing judgdment on Adam Warlock who has the IG. Eternity also desired the IG when LT was deciding of what to do with it, but Adam added that if given to Eternity he might become LT's superior, now how then can a universal affecting only object put Eternity above LT a multiversal being?

oh yes it was the main PF resides in the white hot room which the wave did not reach.

Again you state that it did not reach the white hot room, but the Chaos wave was said possible to be able to reach the white hot room, post scans.

you can post scans all i know is that it did not reach the room, a being called romna was able to seal the breach the wave had created she is probably below the main PF since the PF helped create the nexus of realities from what i can remeber i think this is true.

get's out notepad.......Will there be a test?

i wont lie i get most of this stuff from the expert galactic storm and logical deduction since its true that avatars have verying degress of power.

Originally posted by Mider
i wont lie i get most of this stuff from the expert galactic storm and logical deduction since its true that avatars have verying degress of power.

Phoenix is the most powerful entity, only in GS and his followers mind.

i never said it was the most powerful entity but its sure more powerful then the lame LT.

The White Phoenix of the crown is below HOTU, True Beyonders, Living Tribunal, and multiversal concepts of Eternity and Oblivion. The Crown itself, that is the sheer primal force in its ultimate form however is above LT. That I will agree with, since it basically is TOAA's aspect of creation for the multiverse.

The only problem I see with your theory, Jesse, is a What If? comic may not be part of Marvel continuity in any form what so ever. If it's not an alternate reality comic and literally just an "imaginary" excerpt then any multiversal being's appearance doesn't *have* to be canon. It might be kind of like an official fan fiction.

so in a sense you could say that the ultimate aspect of the PF is above LT.

Perhaps Marvel's desire to one-up itself (and/or DC) has outpaced its ability to keep track of all the "ultimate beings" it has fiddling about in its superdupermultiverse.

More likely, it just doesn't care about keeping everything orderly the way fans would like to see things.

And BTW, why wouldn't a What If story be part of the multiverse? I mean, after all, it is an alternate universe.

Originally posted by Jesse7
Multiple universes and multiple multiverses which house these universes, in every universe there is a version of each being, abstract and entity, which has been shown in certain comics that each universe has its own abstracts; shown in the Korvac what if. Except for a few, Living Tribunal, TOAA, the phoenix force, now if Living Tribunal is above all universes, multiverses, alternate realities, what if universes, and existences, then that would mean their is only one Living Tribunal but omni like. If this is so then that means the Living Tribunal showed in all comics including what if's is canon showing of Living Tribunal since he is above all of these universes and multiverses and their is only one of him meaning the one Living Tribunal showing must be the Living Tribunal. This brings me to my next point

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/2908/ltphoenix5jpg9ob.png

From: "What If the X-Men lost Inferno"

Living Tribunal is shown to be holding the Phoenix as a mere object or a Child's toy, now if Phoenix is above reality constraints then that means that their is only one phoenix not multiple phoenix's, not one for each universe. If this is true that the Phoenix force is Omni like then then that means that there is only one phoenix force just as their is only one Living Tribunal. The Living Tribunal is shown to be able to wield it and hold it like a mere object. Now if their are multiple phoenix's, one for each respected reality and universe, then that means the Phoenix force is not omni like. If you claim that it is only a what if and thus is not canon, then you should know that LT is above all Marvel multiverses including What if's meaning his showings are canon since their is only one LT and that is him. Now if Phoenix is weaker in a what if, then that means she is not Omni like, for if the phoenix force was purely Omni then it would be unlimited and unrestrained no matter what dimension or universe it is in, but clearly it is not here.

The Phoenix force is not the most powerful force in existence, nor do I believe that it is second. If the Living Tribunal is above the Phoenix Force, then that means those above the Living Tribunal are above the Phoenix Force, thus Korvac of the alternate dimension which out powered the Living Tribunal is arguably more powerful then the Phoenix Force, the HOTU which defeated the Living Tribunal is more powerful then the Phoenix Force, the IG which the Living Tribunal was not sure if it could defeat him or not, thus would be more powerful then the phoenix Force.

So many feats brought up in favor of the Phoenix Force, yet the Phoenix force never did anything to save the multiverse when it was threatened by the HOTU or the IG, one could argue it was purely because the Phoenix Force saw it as nothing but child's play, but I believe that to be untrue. The Living Tribunal steped up to defend the Marvel Multiverses, but did the phoenix force, no it did not. Thanos even made it to TOAA and stalemated him. The Phoenix force was helpless to do anything against Thanos and the HOTU. If it took TOAA to undo what Thanos did, and in doing so TOAA burning out his powers, then thinking that the Phoenix Force is more powerful then such I find to be untrue.

Claiming that the Phoenix force is this fundamental force of creation and thus is master of all created, but know this that creation only extends to what you take part in creating, the phoenix may be a force of creation, but when you take it to a level of thinking forces become thoughts and emotions of some one much more powerful and beyond the imagination and thought of the one created.

Point being, the Phoenix force is not the most powerful force in Marvel, nor do I believe it to be the second, or the third, or the fourth.

What if that all is just...retconned out?

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
What if that all is just...retconned out?

Then it will be proven, once again, that The Most Powerful Force in all of Marvel Land was, is and always will be The Writers.

Originally posted by Mindship
And BTW, why wouldn't a What If story be part of the multiverse? I mean, after all, it is an alternate universe.
It doesn't have to be an alternate universe. It could be a completely unattached story not connecting to any universe in any way.

IG was shown to work in the ultraverse, now canon, so perhaps it's powers are pan-universal. in any event, they CAN extend beyond the MU. and any what if appearance of lt is considered canon since there is supposed to be only one of him . . .

Originally posted by Jesse7
Multiple universes and multiple multiverses which house these universes, in every universe there is a version of each being, abstract and entity, which has been shown in certain comics that each universe has its own abstracts; shown in the Korvac what if. Except for a few, Living Tribunal, TOAA, the phoenix force, now if Living Tribunal is above all universes, multiverses, alternate realities, what if universes, and existences, then that would mean their is only one Living Tribunal but omni like. If this is so then that means the Living Tribunal showed in all comics including what if's is canon showing of Living Tribunal since he is above all of these universes and multiverses and their is only one of him meaning the one Living Tribunal showing must be the Living Tribunal. This brings me to my next point

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/2908/ltphoenix5jpg9ob.png

From: "What If the X-Men lost Inferno"

Living Tribunal is shown to be holding the Phoenix as a mere object or a Child's toy, now if Phoenix is above reality constraints then that means that their is only one phoenix not multiple phoenix's, not one for each universe. If this is true that the Phoenix force is Omni like then then that means that there is only one phoenix force just as their is only one Living Tribunal. The Living Tribunal is shown to be able to wield it and hold it like a mere object. Now if their are multiple phoenix's, one for each respected reality and universe, then that means the Phoenix force is not omni like. If you claim that it is only a what if and thus is not canon, then you should know that LT is above all Marvel multiverses including What if's meaning his showings are canon since their is only one LT and that is him. Now if Phoenix is weaker in a what if, then that means she is not Omni like, for if the phoenix force was purely Omni then it would be unlimited and unrestrained no matter what dimension or universe it is in, but clearly it is not here.

The Phoenix force is not the most powerful force in existence, nor do I believe that it is second. If the Living Tribunal is above the Phoenix Force, then that means those above the Living Tribunal are above the Phoenix Force, thus Korvac of the alternate dimension which out powered the Living Tribunal is arguably more powerful then the Phoenix Force, the HOTU which defeated the Living Tribunal is more powerful then the Phoenix Force, the IG which the Living Tribunal was not sure if it could defeat him or not, thus would be more powerful then the phoenix Force.

So many feats brought up in favor of the Phoenix Force, yet the Phoenix force never did anything to save the multiverse when it was threatened by the HOTU or the IG, one could argue it was purely because the Phoenix Force saw it as nothing but child's play, but I believe that to be untrue. The Living Tribunal steped up to defend the Marvel Multiverses, but did the phoenix force, no it did not. Thanos even made it to TOAA and stalemated him. The Phoenix force was helpless to do anything against Thanos and the HOTU. If it took TOAA to undo what Thanos did, and in doing so TOAA burning out his powers, then thinking that the Phoenix Force is more powerful then such I find to be untrue.

Claiming that the Phoenix force is this fundamental force of creation and thus is master of all created, but know this that creation only extends to what you take part in creating, the phoenix may be a force of creation, but when you take it to a level of thinking forces become thoughts and emotions of some one much more powerful and beyond the imagination and thought of the one created.

Point being, the Phoenix force is not the most powerful force in Marvel, nor do I believe it to be the second, or the third, or the fourth.

A rubbish argument based on an old scan which has been dealt with many times before youngster. Youre bringing nothing new to the table so there is no need for me to tear apart your post.

Dealt with:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=387729&perpage=20&highlight=&pagenumber=1

Know your stuff kid.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
A rubbish argument based on an old scan which has been dealt with many times before youngster. Youre bringing nothing new to the table so there is no need for me to tear apart your post.
Well, I'm happy to add my two cents.

First of all, that scan shows part of the relationship between PF and LT. It's not a matter of power. It's a matter of role and function. The president has more power than any individual of the Supreme Court, but he has to abide by their laws. End of. His desires don't matter. He is Commander-In-Chief, so he controls the military. All of his military might means nothing if the Court says his actions or decisions are illegal. Saying that the LT wouldn't allow the PF to return could be for a number of reasons, including work needed to be done elsewhere (as shown in the scan: "And, although the Phoenix Force feels denied...it also knows that, for the sake of the multiverse it must today heed the Tribunal's wishes." Note also that the LT isn't "wielding" the PF. They are having a conversation, nothing more, nothing less.

Second, and I wish people would understand this (so spread the word), Thanos DID NOT destroy the multivers with THOTU. He stated repeatedly, both in Marvel: The End and his subsequent series, that he destroyed his universe, his reality. Nothing suggests that he destroyed the multiverse. Warlock would not have been there had Thanos destroyed all of the multiverse. Thanos did NOT make it to TOAA and he did NOT defeat it. Reality was restored due to Thanos forsaking the power.

As far as the IG is concerned...The LT never stated that he didn't know if he could take the IG from Warlock. He said that taking the IG from Warlock by force would lay waste to that reality (check out WTIF #1), not that he couldn't do it. Also, the LT chose to not intervene in the IG because there would not have been a mystical imbalance. The opposite was true with THOTU.

If you want to use Korvac as an example of power: The LT sealed off that universe because he couldn't deal with him. When Korvac confronted GOTG, Phoenix transported Korvac to another dimension, and that IS in continuity.

gotg?

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame

As far as the IG is concerned...The LT never stated that he didn't know if he could take the IG from Warlock. He said that taking the IG from Warlock by force would lay waste to that reality (check out WTIF #1), not that he couldn't do it. Also, the LT chose to not intervene in the IG because there would not have been a mystical imbalance. The opposite was true with THOTU.

If you want to use Korvac as an example of power: The LT sealed off that universe because he couldn't deal with him. When Korvac confronted GOTG, Phoenix transported Korvac to another dimension, and that IS in continuity.

LT said no such thing. He said that the universe would come to a terrible end in Adams hands and it is his duty to protect it from such threats. Adam then says that to protect the universe from him LT would have to try and forcibly take the IG from him. LT said such a confrontation would destroy 616.

Who would've been the victor was not claimed however it was earlier strongly inferred in the issue by LT that he didnt know if his power was enough to stand up to the IG. LT has no feats to give us an answer. Therefore LT conclusively is not by canon above the IG. How he weighs up against it is up in the air.

How Giraud a Phoenix host fares against anything is irrelevant. He is not a true avatar, he does not equate to Jean Grey.

Originally posted by leonidas
gotg?

Guardians of the Galaxy

ah.

That was a good post tho Cf

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
LT said no such thing. He said that the universe would come to a terrible end in Adams hands and it is his duty to protect it from such threats. Adam then says that to protect the universe from him LT would have to try and forcibly take the IG from him. LT said such a confrontation would destroy 616.

Who would've been the victor was not claimed however it was earlier strongly inferred in the issue by LT that he didnt know if his power was enough to stand up to the IG. LT has no feats to give us an answer. Therefore LT conclusively is not by canon above the IG. How he weighs up against it is up in the air.

How Giraud a Phoenix host fares against anything is irrelevant. He is not a true avatar, he does not equate to Jean Grey.
You have the issue, so you can post scans. If not, then I'll post them when I get home from work. The fact of the matter is that the LT DID state that it would lay waste to that reality. He then asked Warlock if that was the type of God he was. The only individual that questioned the LT's might in that instance was the only one unfamiliar with him: Warlock. When Warlock disrupted the proceedings the LT restored order with a snap of his fingers. It was then that he told Warlock that his power came from above, and Warlock said that that was an assumption yet to be proven. The inference was something that a reader would have to search for, because the LT explicitly shows that his power could counteract the IG in that instance. Note that after he had handed down his decision and told Warlock that a battle would destroy the reality, he didn't say that he couldn't take it. He left the choice with Warlock.

And Giraud...the starter of this thread didn't specify which Phoenix, if a particular avatar, or the force itself. It's your opinion that it doesn't matter. It's mine that it does. The scan showed was Rachel, not Jean, so are you saying that this scan, a large foundation of his argument, doesn't matter because it's Rachel, not Jean? Once again, that's your opinion. As far as I'm concerned, Giraud was Phoenix. He wielded the PF. Your opinion of what constitutes a true avatar is secondary to the fact that he did wield the PF.

LT is indeed superior to the phoenix force. he cancelled out the power of the IG with a single snap of the finger and added that his power came from ON HIGH, n he represented foces that dwarfed the power of the infnite gauntlett.

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
You have the issue, so you can post scans. If not, then I'll post them when I get home from work. The fact of the matter is that the LT DID state that it would lay waste to that reality. He then asked Warlock if that was the type of God he was. The only individual that questioned the LT's might in that instance was the only one unfamiliar with him: Warlock. When Warlock disrupted the proceedings the LT restored order with a snap of his fingers. It was then that he told Warlock that his power came from above, and Warlock said that that was an assumption yet to be proven. The inference was something that a reader would have to search for, because the LT explicitly shows that his power could counteract the IG in that instance. Note that after he had handed down his decision and told Warlock that a battle would destroy the reality, he didn't say that he couldn't take it. He left the choice with Warlock.


Im not having this argument with you CF. Its been posted before and in a much better way. It was still squashed:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=385520&perpage=20&highlight=spectre&pagenumber=2

How LT stands up against the IG is not known. He is not conclusively above it, he has no feats to prove that and it was inferred by his conversation with Adam that LT didnt know how his power would fare against the IG.


Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
And Giraud...the starter of this thread didn't specify which Phoenix, if a particular avatar, or the force itself. It's your opinion that it doesn't matter. It's mine that it does. The scan showed was Rachel, not Jean, so are you saying that this scan, a large foundation of his argument, doesn't matter because it's Rachel, not Jean? Once again, that's your opinion. As far as I'm concerned, Giraud was Phoenix. He wielded the PF. Your opinion of what constitutes a true avatar is secondary to the fact that he did wield the PF.

We're debating about the relative power of the Phoenix compared to LT. Of course it matters what incarnation of Phoenix we're talking about due to their differing power levels. A little common sense would help.

The Phoenix in the scan was not Rachel, it was the Phoenix entity she is bonded to in that reality. Big difference.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
LT is indeed superior to the phoenix force. he cancelled out the power of the IG with a single snap of the finger and added that his power came from ON HIGH, n he represented foces that dwarfed the power of the infnite gauntlett.

He cancelled out a power blast from the IG. A blast that was not full power given the close range and the effect it had on the abstracts. That action does not prove LT is beyond the IG.

In a conversation with Adam it was inferred that LT didnt know how his power would fare against the IG. He has no feats to give us an answer to that query he is by canon conclusively not above the IG. We do not know how he would fare. The scans are in the link i posted.

The IG serves as a conduit for the powers of a universe. It allows a user to tap into universal forces. Phoenix held a universe in her hand, Phoenix is the power which brings about a universe. LTs actions do not place him above Phoenix im afraid.

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame


And Giraud...the starter of this thread didn't specify which Phoenix, if a particular avatar, or the force itself.

Silly, very silly. Please acknowledge the thread title.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
He cancelled out a power blast from the IG. A blast that was not full power given the close range and the effect it had on the abstracts. That action does not prove LT is beyond the IG.

In a conversation with Adam it was inferred that LT didnt know how his power would fare against the IG. He has no feats to give us an answer to that query he is by canon conclusively not above the IG. We do not know how he would fare. The scans are in the link i posted.

The IG serves as a conduit for the powers of a universe. It allows a user to tap into universal forces. Phoenix held a universe in her hand, Phoenix is the power which brings about a universe. LTs actions do not place him above Phoenix im afraid.


nope. he WAS initially unsure of his power but that was settled when he cancelled the power of the IG, and later commented that he represented forces which dwarfed the might of the infinite gauntlett. oh n btw, i thought you were intially of the view that phoenix is the power which brought about the MULTIVERSE, why the change of heart gs{ambiguity}


and its only ur baseless oppinion that he is not above the infinite gauntlett, phoenix is the force that brings about the birth and death of a universe, a powerful abstract, but it has no role in the realms of eternity, infinity and death, or order and chaos. her only great feat is holding a universe, LT is the protector of the MULTIVERSE, n knows the incantation of oblivion which can destroy any universe{greater feat than holding in hands} also as we have seen in the past{when the phoenix was NOT the creator but just a minor abstract representing desire and life unborn} ALL of the major abstracts in the marvel universe{eternity who was sumthin like the phoenix of old comics} were under the power of LT and his passed judgement had to be followed by alll abstracts, its not very different for the universal phoenix, she might be powerful but she is not extremely powerful than the other major abstracts combined, eternity, infinity, death, chaos, order, unbeing, hunger, abraxas, chaos and order combined are still greater or at the very least equal to current phoenix force. she is thus under the same multiversal rules as the others and is hence under LT.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
nope. he WAS initially unsure of his power but that was settled when he cancelled the power of the IG, and later commented that he represented forces which dwarfed the might of the infinite gauntlett. oh n btw, i thought you were intially of the view that phoenix is the power which brought about the MULTIVERSE, why the change of heart gs{ambiguity}


and its only ur baseless oppinion that he is not above the infinite gauntlett, phoenix is the force that brings about the birth and death of a universe, a powerful abstract, but it has no role in the realms of eternity, infinity and death, or order and chaos. her only great feat is holding a universe, LT is the protector of the MULTIVERSE, n knows the incantation of oblivion which can destroy any universe{greater feat than holding in hands} also as we have seen in the past{when the phoenix was NOT the creator but just a minor abstract representing desire and life unborn} ALL of the major abstracts in the marvel universe{eternity who was sumthin like the phoenix of old comics} were under the power of LT and his passed judgement had to be followed by alll abstracts, its not very different for the universal phoenix, she might be powerful but she is not extremely powerful than the other major abstracts combined, eternity, infinity, death, chaos, order, unbeing, hunger, abraxas, chaos and order combined are still greater or at the very least equal to current phoenix force. she is thus under the same multiversal rules as the others and is hence under LT.

Load of unsupported rubbish which doesnt warrant a proper reply.

I'll wait for someone worthy to come along.

And this is based on what? First of all you mean implied, not inferred. Infer is what the reader does, imply is what the writer does. Second of all, no where does the LT state that his power is not greater than the IG. I'm not digging through a 17 page thread to find your scans. If you want to post them here, feel free, but until I see where the LT says that he CANNOT take the IG from Warlock, that his power is LESS THAN the IG, it's bogus. You can infer anything you want to from that issue. He didn't say it. Much like people infer that the chaos wave was directly caused by Wanda. If it ain't on-panel, it don't count. Infer all you want. He didn't say it. All of what you said is based on assumptions of what you saw, not what was said.




And this is the same source that powers Giraud. What's your point? If you want to be such a stickler, the avatars don't really matter at all, because he's speaking of the PF itself. You can't have it both ways. Either you include various incarnations, or you include none.


I stand corrected. This changes very little, however. If one is going to have a discussion about an entity with multiple incarnations, those various incarnations need to be discussed, or the perspective is obviously very skewed. To say that Jean held the universe in her hand without considering what others have done leads to an illogical argument with an unsound foundation if one is discussing the PF and what it has done.

My God...

You know what, I'm not going to drop another long drawn out essay on this subject. I'm just going to say what I've said all along in this many faceted Phoenix debate:

Purpose doesn't equal power.

Living Tribunal and The Phoenix Force (the actual Force) are peers, and their roles are supplementary.

Tribunal doesn't have any feats because he's not an active adventuring hero. He simply suits a specific purpose in the multiverse and only appears when deemed absolutely necessary, which quite frankly is not that often because the heroes and villains balance eachother out for the most part so he doesn't need to get involved.

Phoenix Hosts and Avatars have active rolls in a universe. Hell, they're on the rosters of super hero teams. Of course they'll have more feats than Tribunal. Tribunal isn't an Avenger, X-Man, Defenders, Thunderbolt, or Evil Mutant.

The same concept goes for these comparisons of Spectre from DC and Tribunal. The Spectre has served actively on a superhero team, he's going to have more feats because he has more appearances and is more active.

Tribunal is not going to have as many feats, he only acts when absolutely necessary, and there is a large span of checks and balances, on a universal scale, set in place before a situation escalates to the realm of LT's jurisdiction and he has to step in and bring order.

Please stop.

by that logic, cf, and based on the title, you should be looking at feats accomplished solely by the force itself, then, and ignore any avatar.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Load of unsupported rubbish which doesnt warrant a proper reply.

I'll wait for someone worthy to come along.


out of baseless essays to post eh? dont worry, we understand.

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
And this is based on what? First of all you mean implied, not inferred. Infer is what the reader does, imply is what the writer does. Second of all, no where does the LT state that his power is not greater than the IG. I'm not digging through a 17 page thread to find your scans. If you want to post them here, feel free, but until I see where the LT says that he CANNOT take the IG from Warlock, that his power is LESS THAN the IG, it's bogus. You can infer anything you want to from that issue. He didn't say it. Much like people infer that the chaos wave was directly caused by Wanda. If it ain't on-panel, it don't count. Infer all you want. He didn't say it. All of what you said is based on assumptions of what you saw, not what was said.

The scans are readily available in the aforementioned thread, a thread i have posted a link to. I will not go out of my way to post them again for your convenience. Whether you visit the thread or dont it makes no difference to me, your argument is poor.

LT has never defeated a being beyond the IG. LT has never displayed an output of power beyond the IG. It was suggested in the issue that LT didnt know how his power would stand up to the IGs. He said he was determining if he had the power, Adam then finished off his sentence and said to wrest the gauntlet from me. They then glared at each other. It was heavily suggested my friend, by that and the fact that LT said a confrontation with Adam would destroy a reality. The victor of such an outcome is unknown. It was left up in the air. Noone can claim LT is beyond the IG because he has no on panel showing to conclusively prove that. End of.



Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
And this is the same source that powers Giraud. What's your point? If you want to be such a stickler, the avatars don't really matter at all, because he's speaking of the PF itself. You can't have it both ways. Either you include various incarnations, or you include none.

Jean Grey as stated in Classic X-men is formed from the actual Phoenix Force. That is why she is the White Crown Phoenix, the closest thing Phoenix has to a human form. The one true avatar. This was again confirmed in Endsong and the Phoenix Forces latest bio. With that in mind when talking about the Phoenix Force, im quite right to mention Jean and dismiss references to mere hosts. Consider yourself educated.


Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
I stand corrected. This changes very little, however. If one is going to have a discussion about an entity with multiple incarnations, those various incarnations need to be discussed, or the perspective is obviously very skewed. To say that Jean held the universe in her hand without considering what others have done leads to an illogical argument with an unsound foundation if one is discussing the PF and what it has done.

It changes everything my friend. The thread is about the Phoenix Force, therefore we should be referencing Jean Grey and the Phoenix entity. The actions of the hosts are irrelevant my friend and are not representative of the Phoenix/Jean Grey and what it is capable of. Good try tho

Originally posted by leonidas
by that logic, cf, and based on the title, you should be looking at feats accomplished solely by the force itself, then, and ignore any avatar.


but thas the problem, the force doesnt HAVE any great feats other than holding a UNIVERSE in her hands and remaking it.

Originally posted by leonidas
by that logic, cf, and based on the title, you should be looking at feats accomplished solely by the force itself, then, and ignore any avatar.

Originally posted by illadelph12
My God...

You know what, I'm not going to drop another long drawn out essay on this subject. I'm just going to say what I've said all along in this many faceted Phoenix debate:

Purpose doesn't equal power.

Living Tribunal and The Phoenix Force (the actual Force) are peers, and their roles are supplementary.

Tribunal doesn't have any feats because he's not an active adventuring hero. He simply suits a specific purpose in the multiverse and only appears when deemed absolutely necessary, which quite frankly is not that often because the heroes and villains balance eachother out for the most part so he doesn't need to get involved.

Phoenix Hosts and Avatars have active rolls in a universe. Hell, they're on the rosters of super hero teams. Of course they'll have more feats than Tribunal. Tribunal isn't an Avenger, X-Man, Defenders, Thunderbolt, or Evil Mutant.

The same concept goes for these comparisons of Spectre from DC and Tribunal. The Spectre has served actively on a superhero team, he's going to have more feats because he has more appearances and is more active.

Tribunal is not going to have as many feats, he only acts when absolutely necessary, and there is a large span of checks and balances, on a universal scale, set in place before a situation escalates to the realm of LT's jurisdiction and he has to step in and bring order.

Please stop.

all well and good, but who gets curbstomped?

Originally posted by illadelph12
My God...

You know what, I'm not going to drop another long drawn out essay on this subject. I'm just going to say what I've said all along in this many faceted Phoenix debate:

Purpose doesn't equal power.

Living Tribunal and The Phoenix Force (the actual Force) are peers, and their roles are supplementary.

Tribunal doesn't have any feats because he's not an active adventuring hero. He simply suits a specific purpose in the multiverse and only appears when deemed absolutely necessary, which quite frankly is not that often because the heroes and villains balance eachother out for the most part so he doesn't need to get involved.

Phoenix Hosts and Avatars have active rolls in a universe. Hell, they're on the rosters of super hero teams. Of course they'll have more feats than Tribunal. Tribunal isn't an Avenger, X-Man, Defenders, Thunderbolt, or Evil Mutant.

The same concept goes for these comparisons of Spectre from DC and Tribunal. The Spectre has served actively on a superhero team, he's going to have more feats because he has more appearances and is more active.

Tribunal is not going to have as many feats, he only acts when absolutely necessary, and there is a large span of checks and balances, on a universal scale, set in place before a situation escalates to the realm of LT's jurisdiction and he has to step in and bring order.

Please stop.

True enough. His standing is unknown because of the nature of the character and how he operates. Its tough luck basically. It means he doesnt have the feats to back up the notion hes beyond the IG let alone the Phoenix Force.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
but thas the problem, the force doesnt HAVE any great feats other than holding a UNIVERSE in her hands and remaking it.

The M'kraan crystal feat and the act of creating an energy matrix across the multiverse. Two multiversal level feats.

Please dont try and mention Cyclops and the X-men healing the crystal in that What If as you predictably will. Its not canon and was retconned out of existence by AOA and Jahfs subsequent comments that only Phoenix can save existence from the crystal. You have NOT A THING.

BULLSHIT, gs, cyclops healed the crystal in an arc similar to the phoenix, just because ur peanut sized brain wont accept means less than crap in a debate. cyclop's optic blast could do the trick, no phoenix involved, therefore it was the CRYSTAL n not the phoenix who could heal it. these event were not retconned, and there is also the little problem that the CRYSTAL itself, was created by an alien race, if you say that its the heart of the phoenix{a wrong assumption to begin with{ then the alien race are the CREATORS of the phoenix. an alien race that was CREATED in a universe and BUILT the crystal. also the crystal was a universal reset switch, IT did the univesal feats not phoenix, the power was the crystal's NOT phoenix's{which is WHY cyclops would do the same just by activating it} the energy matrix was not multiversal power, the phoenix didnt control or affect directly the entire multiverse with it enough to give multiversal power. you have been goin on and on about phoenix being TOAA's power, but later dismissed the prospect of TOAA at ALL. making PHOENIX the supreme being, which could be PROVEN by your logic{more ambiguity n phoenix empowerment, fanboyism}. there is NOTHING to back it up, she was not present at the creation of the universe with reed richards, the bunny was{dismissing facts wont work} it was beaten by zorg/magneto. it was broken in SHARDS. ithe phoenix is just a powerful abstract which is the starter and destroyer of universes in SOME instances in marvel as other deny it, like all comics and characters/cosmics. theres nuthin very special about it.

now as far as LT goes, after the whole omega level mutant theory, all abstracts are being powered down, him included, n seeing that humanity will become both LT, and phoenix sumday. it becomes hazy as to who would be the winner CURRENTLY{classic LT wud beat the tar out of current phoenix} also the prospect of the 616 reality being connected to the multiverse makes things even hazier for any1 who has had UNIVERSAL power in the past{a lot of people}, but id still put my money on LT, he always was higher than the phoenix.

It sounds like X-Men writers are getting hella pretentious.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
BULLSHIT, gs, cyclops healed the crystal in an arc similar to the phoenix, just because ur peanut sized brain wont accept means less than crap in a debate. cyclop's optic blast could do the trick, no phoenix involved, therefore it was the CRYSTAL n not the phoenix who could heal it. these event were not retconned, and there is also the little problem that the CRYSTAL itself, was created by an alien race, if you say that its the heart of the phoenix{a wrong assumption to begin with{ then the alien race are the CREATORS of the phoenix. an alien race that was CREATED in a universe and BUILT the crystal. also the crystal was a universal reset switch, IT did the univesal feats not phoenix, the power was the crystal's NOT phoenix's{which is WHY cyclops would do the same just by activating it} the energy matrix was not multiversal power, the phoenix didnt control or affect directly the entire multiverse with it enough to give multiversal power. you have been goin on and on about phoenix being TOAA's power, but later dismissed the prospect of TOAA at ALL. making PHOENIX the supreme being, which could be PROVEN by your logic{more ambiguity n phoenix empowerment, fanboyism}. there is NOTHING to back it up, she was not present at the creation of the universe with reed richards, the bunny was{dismissing facts wont work} it was beaten by zorg/magneto. it was broken in SHARDS. ithe phoenix is just a powerful abstract which is the starter and destroyer of universes in SOME instances in marvel as other deny it, like all comics and characters/cosmics. theres nuthin very special about it.

Regardless of your opinion on the situation, Jahfs comments retconned that incident. I dont need to comment further on the matter. Having a mispelt rant at me for not accepting your opinion will change nothing

The crystal is the nexus of all realities. It began as a universal reset switch and this was changed again by AOA to be multiversal. Your comments are void.

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=2/5308552076.jpg&s=x402

As for the origins of the crystal, it was speculated that it was created by an alien race, its origin was unknown. It was later stated on panel it was created by the deities of Shiar faith:

http://img456.imageshack.us/img456/4797/xmanannual1997021yz.th.jpg

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/3753/xmanannual1997168ms.th.jpg

And look who Sharra and Kythri really are:

http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/3715/vfxxmentheend20089bd.th.jpg

Im really sorry Leon you must get really bored with this outcome

Originally posted by leonheartmm
you have been goin on and on about phoenix being TOAA's power, but later dismissed the prospect of TOAA at ALL. making PHOENIX the supreme being, which could be PROVEN by your logic{more ambiguity n phoenix empowerment, fanboyism}. there is NOTHING to back it up, she was not present at the creation of the universe with reed richards, the bunny was{dismissing facts wont work} it was beaten by zorg/magneto. it was broken in SHARDS. ithe phoenix is just a powerful abstract which is the starter and destroyer of universes in SOME instances in marvel as other deny it, like all comics and characters/cosmics. theres nuthin very special about it.

At the time i was saying Phoenix was TOAA's power i believed TOAA was marvels supreme being. I then found out that that wasnt conclusively the case. Marvel has a supreme being it just hasnt been stated to be TOAA regardless of whats suggested. I later accepted that Phoenix being linked to Marvels supreme being while heavily suggested was not canon.

If you take a look at the latest Phoenix bio it again confirms that Phoenix was the Big Bang. It also confirms that the Phoenix shape didnt come around till much later. Your arguument that cos the Big Bang wasnt Phoenix shaped that it wasnt Phoenix is naive and absurd and in light of the bio conclusively incorrect.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
the energy matrix was not multiversal power, the phoenix didnt control or affect directly the entire multiverse with it enough to give multiversal power.

The Phoenix created a tower in every reality of the multiverse, creating an eneregy matrix around it. Thats a multiversal feat, Phoenix applied its power across all realities simultaneously.

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=3/5913134015.jpg&s=x402

Originally posted by leonheartmm
and there is also the little problem that the CRYSTAL itself, was created by an alien race, if you say that its the heart of the phoenix{a wrong assumption to begin with{ then the alien race are the CREATORS of the phoenix.

The crystal is an access point for the Crown/White Hot Room,

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=3/5913213385.jpg&s=x402


the Crown is the heart of the Phoenix


http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/8404/uncannyxmen462p049vw.th.jpg

the crystal was built by an alien race, hence the aliens are above the phoenix and the white hot room by your logic.


as for that other rant, reposting it again and again wont change a thing, you dont have any facts and your oppinion is based on a few out of place, scans which do not show what you are claiming. exactly what every1 has come to expect from u.

The nature of The Living Tribunal as an impartial judge implies that it has more power as TOAA would not present Phoenix (life) with greater importance and power than Death since both are equally important parts of the universe. LT has no purpose except keeping the universe how TOAA likes it and is not in favour of life or death and so is the most likely to be given the most power. That said, TOAA created an omniverse with hotus in them.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
the crystal was built by an alien race, hence the aliens are above the phoenix and the white hot room by your logic.

The scans are there telling you the origin of the crystal according to the Shiar. Previously it was stated that the crystal was thought to be created by alien race who are long forgotten. Nothing conclusive was known.


Originally posted by leonheartmm
as for that other rant, reposting it again and again wont change a thing, you dont have any facts and your oppinion is based on a few out of place, scans which do not show what you are claiming. exactly what every1 has come to expect from u.

Ignoring on panel evidence when it doesnt fit in with your opinion on how things should be is something I and alot of people on here have come to expect from you. That and mispelt, illogical rants.

Originally posted by Pepito
The nature of The Living Tribunal as an impartial judge implies that it has more power as TOAA would not present Phoenix (life) with greater importance and power than Death since both are equally important parts of the universe. LT has no purpose except keeping the universe how TOAA likes it and is not in favour of life or death and so is the most likely to be given the most power. That said, TOAA created an omniverse with hotus in them.

TOAA is LTs master. All thats been said about it is that its a force beyond the IG. It is not conclusively Marvels supreme being.

Phoenix is not an abstract. It is not the opposite of death. That would be Eternity as stated on panel. Phoenix is the power of creation that fuels existence and brings the abstracts into being. It to safeguards creation but has different jurisdiction. It manifests into reality via avatars to ensure the creation cycle keeps going on forever. LT maintains the balance of power in universes.

blah, same old crap. you dont get tired of your self do u. still no proof.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
blah, same old crap. you dont get tired of your self do u. still no proof.

Proof of what? I have nothing to prove my friend.

All my points have been previously verified.

only in your head gs{which as I have proven is smaller than a peanut, its on panel, canon gs, you cant deny it, just shutup and accept it} you have shown NO PROOF whatsoever of your claims. on top you have often manipulated evidence and scans which only permanently damages your credibility.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Regardless of your opinion on the situation, Jahfs comments retconned that incident. I dont need to comment further on the matter. Having a mispelt rant at me for not accepting your opinion will change nothing

The crystal is the nexus of all realities. It began as a universal reset switch and this was changed again by AOA to be multiversal. Your comments are void.

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=2/5308552076.jpg&s=x402

As for the origins of the crystal, it was speculated that it was created by an alien race, its origin was unknown. It was later stated on panel it was created by the deities of Shiar faith:

http://img456.imageshack.us/img456/4797/xmanannual1997021yz.th.jpg

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/3753/xmanannual1997168ms.th.jpg

And look who Sharra and Kythri really are:

http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/3715/vfxxmentheend20089bd.th.jpg

Im really sorry Leon you must get really bored with this outcome

Am I the only one that doesn't see the pic of Sharra and Kythri?

Wait a minute, so now TOAA isn't Marvel's creator????

Originally posted by illadelph12
Wait a minute, so now TOAA isn't Marvel's creator????

in that regard, and going strictly by on-panel evidence, it hasn't/can't be conclusively proven that toaa is marvel's supreme being. really the only thing known about toaa ON-PANEL is that he is above lt. it can and HAS been assumed by many/most that toaa is mu's supreme being. that may or may not be true going by gs's strict rule of 'only on-panel material' can be used as conclusive proof. it may be the logical assumption, it may even be the correct one, but nothing on-panel has ever said toaa IS supreme or toaa IS the mu's creator.

Since TOAA never appears on panel it's just refers to whoever created the mu.

Originally posted by leonidas
in that regard, and going strictly by on-panel evidence, it hasn't/can't be conclusively proven that toaa is marvel's supreme being. really the only thing known about toaa ON-PANEL is that he is above lt. it can and HAS been assumed by many/most that toaa is mu's supreme being. that may or may not be true going by gs's strict rule of 'only on-panel material' can be used as conclusive proof. it may be the logical assumption, it may even be the correct one, but nothing on-panel has ever said toaa IS supreme or toaa IS the mu's creator.

Uh...



So let me get this straight:

Even though for years it has been stated in the comics that Living Tribunal is the representative of "The One Above All" in the Marvel Multiverse and empowered with the sole purposes of protecting all of TOAA's creation, it doesn't mean that The One Above All is actually The One Above All in anything more than name only, because it's never been shown and has no feats, though every abstract and being in the MU of any form of cosmic signifigance is depicted as accepting this fact?

GS, we're homies, but please tell me this was just some kind of ruse to brainf*ck someone.

Please tell me you're not really arguing that TOAA is not the supreme being of Marvel just because you can't prove a Phoenix Force connection to it conclusively because it's not depicted in a comic.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Uh...



So let me get this straight:

Even though for years it has been stated in the comics that Living Tribunal is the representative of "The One Above All" in the Marvel Multiverse and empowered with the sole purposes of protecting all of TOAA's creation, it doesn't mean that The One Above All is actually The One Above All in anything more than name only, because it's never been shown and has no feats, though every abstract and being in the MU of any form of cosmic signifigance is depicted as accepting this fact?

GS, we're homies, but please tell me this was just some kind of ruse to brainf*ck someone.

Please tell me you're not really arguing that TOAA is not the supreme being of Marvel just because you can't prove a Phoenix Force connection to it conclusively because it's not depicted in a comic.



this oughtta be good . . .

I try to walk away, but they keep pulling me back in!!!!!

meh why all this fighting seesh its just a comic and the PF has been shown to be above the LT already pfft LT hasnt shown any feats to be above anyone and him holding that PF just means that it was a weak avatar nothing else.

doh

what are you doing that for

Mider...

illadelph is the only one presenting logic in here..

hmm, i have my own theory. just a theory mind you. but it would tie in with all the defeats and, all the wins for BOTH characters.


now lets just start off by defining "multiverse". to me, this is ever marvel universe ever. games, comics, cartoons etc. now this is what LT, and or phoenix force can manipulate.

they are unique, unlike the rest of the heirarchy in individual universes, they only have 1 collective consciouss. but, in order to act in any given universe, they have to put a portion of thier collected might, into that universe to try and act.

which would be why LT COULD pore his might into a single universe, but withdraw from the rest and have no say in them, and defeat PF. but it could go the other way around.


say there were 100 universes. LT could divide himself into 100 individual pieces, but not be all powerful in each universe. OR he could divide himself into 2 large chunks and mow through ranks of people in just 2 universes. same with phoenix.


now who's collective consciouss would be more powerful is what i would be trying to prove. cause thats the only real way to do it.

LT's feats are not great enough to take on PF he cant even take down strange with out problems and doubts his power against the IG

Originally posted by illadelph12
Uh...



So let me get this straight:

Even though for years it has been stated in the comics that Living Tribunal is the representative of "The One Above All" in the Marvel Multiverse and empowered with the sole purposes of protecting all of TOAA's creation, it doesn't mean that The One Above All is actually The One Above All in anything more than name only, because it's never been shown and has no feats, though every abstract and being in the MU of any form of cosmic signifigance is depicted as accepting this fact?

GS, we're homies, but please tell me this was just some kind of ruse to brainf*ck someone.

Please tell me you're not really arguing that TOAA is not the supreme being of Marvel just because you can't prove a Phoenix Force connection to it conclusively because it's not depicted in a comic.

All that has ever ever been said about TOAA is that it is LTs master and that it is a power greater than the IG. (These days alot of things are) Regardless of whats suggested (which is actually very little) we dont know if LTs master is marvels supreme being or an agent of something bigger itself. The name in itself also isnt enough reason for us to acknowledge it as the supreme being as theres a Celestial by that name also.

My reasons for doing this arent as juvenile as that Ill. Come on you should know me better than that by now. I was highlighting hypocrisy and double standards which are prevalent in alot of peoples arguments. Regardless im 100% correct in saying that by canon LT is not the servant of the supreme being as TOAA has yet to be stated to be said being.

Originally posted by GODSCRIBE
illadelph is the only one presenting logic in here..

In light of the information revealed about TOAA thats really not the case. These days there are a number of powers greater than the IG. Are they supreme beings as well?

Im not saying i dont think TOAA is the supreme being or that hes not intended to be the supreme being. Im saying by canon he is at this stage definitely not the supreme being and im 100% correct in saying that. To say otherwise based on assumption and speculation now that would be illogical.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Am I the only one that doesn't see the pic of Sharra and Kythri?

Try this

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=2/3909345924.jpg&s=x7

i'm glad illadelph mentioned the "feats" clause. and i like killall's theory about collective conscious. that would explain a number of bizarre things, such as "jgg" and korvac.

we shouldn't go by feat. abstracts don't have or need feats, nor should they. in my mind all abstracts are essentially equal. if we do go be feats, though, VERY few feats in comicdom surpass the Phoenix holding/healing 616. if she had a mind to, phoenix could have destroyed it without a thought. that means galactus, abraxas, eternity, infinity, chaos/order, and the cosmic bunny himself would all be destroyed.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
All that has ever ever been said about TOAA is that it is LTs master and that it is a power greater than the IG. (These days alot of things are) Regardless of whats suggested (which is actually very little) we dont know if LTs master is marvels supreme being or an agent of something bigger itself. The name in itself also isnt enough reason for us to acknowledge it as the supreme being as theres a Celestial by that name also.

My reasons for doing this arent as juvenile as that Ill. Come on you should know me better than that by now. I was highlighting hypocrisy and double standards which are prevalent in alot of peoples arguments. Regardless im 100% correct in saying that by canon LT is not the servant of the supreme being as TOAA has yet to be stated to be said being.

Understood, but I personally don't put much weight in 'feats' considering they are plot driven. I've seen Spiderman punch out a Herald, Galactus get jumped by a group of mutant Canadians, Batman horse collar a speedforce user, and my boy Frank Castle kill the entire MU.

Feats are like WWE matches; scripted and given to the observer to interpret them as they will. Far too subjective to take into full account and consideration.

I put more merit in purpose than 'feats' as far as abstract level beings and above are concerned.

LT's role is known, as is TOAAs. Looking for on panel evidence of 'feats' for characters that by their very premise are not involved in common affairs of the universe and make little to no appearances is an erroneous venture.

I understand where you're coming from, especially with the hypocricy and double standards point (and I know of whom you speak), but as I've told you before, when you have the logical high ground, there's no need or reason to stoop to that level of double talk and conjecture.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Understood, but I personally don't put much weight in 'feats' considering they are plot driven. I've seen Spiderman punch out a Herald, Galactus get jumped by a group of mutant Canadians, Batman horse collar a speedforce user, and my boy Frank Castle kill the entire MU.

Feats are like WWE matches; scripted and given to the observer to interpret them as they will. Far too subjective to take into full account and consideration.

I put more merit in purpose than 'feats' as far as abstract level beings and above are concerned.

LT's role is known, as is TOAAs. Looking for on panel evidence of 'feats' for characters that by their very premise are not involved in common affairs of the universe and make little to no appearances is an erroneous venture.

I understand where you're coming from, especially with the hypocricy and double standards point (and I know of whom you speak), but as I've told you before, when you have the logical high ground, there's no need or reason to stoop to that level of double talk and conjecture.

I know where youre coming from with the feats thing however when weighing up cosmics who both have roles integral to Marvel creation, your way doesnt work and feats are the only way we can decide on a victor. If one of the characters doesnt have the feats because of the nature of the character and its role then for lack of a better phrase its tough luck.

While my theories were more logical i must admit that these people who im aiming this course of action at were correct that they were not canon. There was no avoiding that regardless of what was suggested and i can and have learned to admit that. By looking at their own theories and applying the same terms ive highlighted their hypocrisy and double standards time and time again and theyve ultimately come off worse. Even with that done i cant now go back to just accepting the suggested and treating it as canon because after all that been said that would then make me a hypocrite.

Point being, the phoenix outside of the white hot room is only as powerful as its avatars, thus if the LT is more powerful then its Avatars then respectively then LT is more powerful then the phoenix. Claiming that within the white hot room the phoenix force is more powerful then the LT is also not completely grounded (nor is it known if this is true) because if the Phoenix Force cannot act outside of the White hot room without a host, then it's influence is restricted very much so.

Some thing for you to think about, when the entire Marvel Megaverse was being threatened, was the phoenix force or any of its avatars able to stop it? No it did nothing and I believe it was because it could do nothing and you have no on panel scans to prove other wise or that it just chose to do nothing, because even TOAA stepped up to stop Thanos. Even though the LT was defeated he was at least able to stand up to the HOTU, which the Phoenix Force or any of its avatars were never shown to be able to do, and claiming "o but the phoenix force could have if it wanted to, but it didnt chose to," is speculation, in which there are no on panel scans of the Pheonix force of any of its avatars being shown standing up to and stoping Thanos (with the HOTU), thus cannot be proven by scans. In the end of that arc TOAA reversed everything Thanos with the HOTU did. Thus going by on panel feats, HOTU/TOAA>PF, which I would like to also bring up that the phoenix force did nothing, I believe not because it chose not to but rather because it couldn't do anythin to stop the HOTU.

Galactic Storm your attitude of "I am wiser then though, thus whatever you say is meaningless" really holds little influence and sway to others.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I know where youre coming from with the feats thing however when weighing up cosmics who both have roles integral to Marvel creation, your way doesnt work and feats are the only way we can decide on a victor. If one of the characters doesnt have the feats because of the nature of the character and its role then for lack of a better phrase its tough luck.

While my theories were more logical i must admit that these people who im aiming this course of action at were correct that they were not canon. There was no avoiding that regardless of what was suggested and i can and have learned to admit that. By looking at their own theories and applying the same terms ive highlighted their hypocrisy and double standards time and time again and theyve ultimately come off worse. Even with that done i cant now go back to just accepting the suggested and treating it as canon because after all that been said that would then make me a hypocrite.

Looks like a catch 22 all around.

Eh, oh well.

I've never been one to let the opinions of others disuade me from my own logical deduction.

I see LT and the Phoenix Force as supplementary peers, with Phoenix's role establishing the necessity of Tribunal's role.

The power levels of either has never been specifically quantified nor the limits clearly defined, so I have no reason to beleive either would defeat the other.

Other than restarting the multiversal creation cycle, there is no clear or defined way for Phoenix to 'defeat' LT, and even this 'creation reset' is simply a matter of Phoenix fulfilling it's purpose and not an actual offensive action or attack.

Furthermore, in so doing, in the new creation afforded after this action by the Phoenix, the role of LT will need to be facilitated to keep the natural order and he will exist anew, so it's not an actual defeat as much as a repositioning.

It's a stalemate.

Purpose doesn't equal power.

Originally posted by Jesse7
Point being, the phoenix outside of the white hot room is only as powerful as its avatars, thus if the LT is more powerful then its Avatars then respectively then LT is more powerful then the phoenix. Claiming that within the white hot room the phoenix force is more powerful then the LT is also not completely grounded (nor is it known if this is true) because if the Phoenix Force cannot act outside of the White hot room without a host, then it's influence is restricted very much so.

The Phoenix can and has acted without avatars before on a number of occassions. That is common knowledge so i will not cater for your lack of knowledge with scans. Jean Grey is not just a host she is literally Phoenix as stated on panel and in her bio. She was made from the Force for the purpose of carrying out "Phoenix work" on the physical plane. That is why she is the White Crown Phoenix. With all that in mind your point is void. Phoenix has a more important role than LT and on top of that has better on panel feats.

Originally posted by Jesse7
Some thing for you to think about, when the entire Marvel Megaverse was being threatened, was the phoenix force or any of its avatars able to stop it? No it and they were not able to, even though the LT was defeated he was at least able to stand up to the HOTU. In the end of that arc TOAA reversed everything Thanos with the HOTU did. Thus going by on panel feats, HOTU/TOAA>PF, which I would like to also bring up that the phoenix force did nothing, I believe not because it chose not to but rather because it couldn't do anything.

Wrong on many a point mate. Allow me to explain.Who is to say the entire marvel megaverse was threatened? No evidence for that. It certainly wasnt stated and in the end the destruction wrought by HOTU was restricted to a single universe. (Please re-read the title to refresh your memory or if you ask nicely i will post scans stating the point). On top of that the Phoenix wasnt present in the entire mini so how it would fare against HOTU is unknown.

Youre whole grasp on what happened in The End is incredibly faulty. Please show me anywhere in the mini that TOAA's name is mentioned. Please tell me where it was confirmed that HOTU was the supreme beings power. It wasnt anywhere in the title. Thanos speculated that it was so, which isnt conclusive evidence. He also speculated the same thing about the IG and that as we later found it was far from the case. On top of that no mention of the HOTU being the supreme beings power was mentioned in Akhenatens bio which came out last month in the latest handbook. It was nothing but Thanos' speculation, he didnt know the origins of the power all we know is that its a power source greater than the IG and LT.

Therefore going by on panel feats containing the power of the multiversal reset switch that is the M'kraan crystal is still greater than Thanos absorbing the universe and its protectors and then undoing his actions. Strictly universal im afraid.

Originally posted by Jesse7
Galactic Storm your attitude of "I am wiser then though, thus whatever you say is meaningless" really holds little influence and sway to others.

Nope my attitude is if you post an argument you better make sure as hell you have the goods to back it up. I can draw on many a source to prove my point here without a shadow of a doubt. You on the other hand have a faulty grasp of a mini and ignorance over both of the topics characters. You have nothing to support your OPINION. Therefore it really is quite meaningless in this debate.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Looks like a catch 22 all around.

Eh, oh well.

I've never been one to let the opinions of others disuade me from my own logical deduction.

I see LT and the Phoenix Force as supplementary peers, with Phoenix's role establishing the necessity of Tribunal's role.

The power levels of either has never been specifically quantified nor the limits clearly defined, so I have no reason to beleive either would defeat the other.

Other than restarting the multiversal creation cycle, there is no clear or defined way for Phoenix to 'defeat' LT, and even this 'creation reset' is simply a matter of Phoenix fulfilling it's purpose and not an actual offensive action or attack.

Furthermore, in so doing, in the new creation afforded after this action by the Phoenix, the role of LT will need to be facilitated to keep the natural order and he will exist anew, so it's not an actual defeat as much as a repositioning.

It's a stalemate.

Purpose doesn't equal power.

well said.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Looks like a catch 22 all around.

Eh, oh well.

I've never been one to let the opinions of others disuade me from my own logical deduction.

I see LT and the Phoenix Force as supplementary peers, with Phoenix's role establishing the necessity of Tribunal's role.

The power levels of either has never been specifically quantified nor the limits clearly defined, so I have no reason to beleive either would defeat the other.

Other than restarting the multiversal creation cycle, there is no clear or defined way for Phoenix to 'defeat' LT, and even this 'creation reset' is simply a matter of Phoenix fulfilling it's purpose and not an actual offensive action or attack.

Furthermore, in so doing, in the new creation afforded after this action by the Phoenix, the role of LT will need to be facilitated to keep the natural order and he will exist anew, so it's not an actual defeat as much as a repositioning.

It's a stalemate.

Purpose doesn't equal power.

But theres a stated schedule to be kept to and the fact that the Phoenix power can be tapped into at any point to humble the likes of LT as stated and depicted on panel then that shows you its greater. In such a circumstance that would not be the Phoenix fulfilling its purpose. As actually stated such an event would be against the natural order (the order LT and the like seek to maintain) which is why the council of fundamental forces (of which LT was a member) convened and sent Eternity to ask Jean not to let it happen.

My opinion hasnt changed Ill dont get me wrong but my way of looking at debates and weighing up arguments has. Its quite correct to only consider something canon if its stated on panel or explicitly shown. What is canon is all that matters in debates not our opinions on how things should be. While my theories were heavily alluded to on panel and were likely what the writers intended to be picked up on, they conclusively were not canon. Me accepting that doesnt change my opinion or equate to me allowing the opinions of others to dissuade me from my logical deductions lol.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
But theres a stated schedule to be kept to and the fact that the Phoenix power can be tapped into at any point to humble the likes of LT as stated and depicted on panel then that shows you its greater. In such a circumstance that would not be the Phoenix fulfilling its purpose. As actually stated such an event would be against the natural order (the order LT and the like seek to maintain) which is why the council of fundamental forces (of which LT was a member) convened and sent Eternity to ask Jean not to let it happen.

You mean the Stranger episode.

That is very subjective as well.

Stranger was going to pervert the role of the Phoenix Force to serve his own ends, but he didn't actually have or obtain the power. The depiction you continually reference was simply an illustration of a possible outcome that was never realized. Given that the role of the Phoenix Force is the fundamental energy source of creation, it does seem like a great leveraging tool.

Based on common sense, the Stranger himself is not more powerful than any of the other abstracts, particularly Living Tribunal, and especially if they combined their efforts. There is no logical reason other than a plot device that a pantheon of omnipotent, omnipresent beings that embody universal conceptualization and the judge, jury, and executioner of all Marvel existence would have to go and ask for the assistance of Jean Grey to stop Stranger from obtaining the Phoenix Force power from her when he didn't already have the power in his posession and was not a threat until he actually acquired access to the force.

Now, in this instance, it is perfectly logical that Living Tribunal would not simply banish or destroy Stranger because he hadn't yet actually committed the crime (just as he didn't kill Warlock before he acquired the IG, or Thanos before he acquired the IG or HOTU), and after he had perpetrated this crime, the power source he would have in his employ, by purpose, would give him a glaring leveraging point over Living Tribunal because Stranger would have control of the fundamental substance of the creation cycle and be able to restart and reform creation to his own design at will, so yes, LT would be trumped, because his role is to protect to product of the Phoenix Force, he has no say in what shape or substance this product takes when created, he simply fulfills his role.

However, by your own "canon feats" definition, Stranger's displayed possible perversion of the Phoenix Force to subjugate the Abstracts is not an actual Phoenix feat, it's a Stranger feat equivalent to Thanos with the IG or Doom with the Power Cosmic.

The Phoenix Force on it's own is not given to such perversions and is bound by it's role, so this instance is not afforded to the will or actions of the Force, Jean, or it's sentience within the White Hot Room, and therefore is inadmissable as evidence of the Force itself acting and displaying domain over the Abstracts and Living Tribunal.

A catch 22.

So, as I've said all along, Living Tribunal and The Phoenix Force (the actual force) are supplementary peers.

Phoenix creates, Tribunal protects.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
My opinion hasnt changed Ill dont get me wrong but my way of looking at debates and weighing up arguments has. Its quite correct to only consider something canon if its stated on panel or explicitly shown. What is canon is all that matters in debates not our opinions on how things should be. While my theories were heavily alluded to on panel and were likely what the writers intended to be picked up on, they conclusively were not canon. Me accepting that doesnt change my opinion or equate to me allowing the opinions of others to dissuade me from my logical deductions lol.

Whirly really got to you, huh?

Originally posted by illadelph12
You mean the Stranger episode.

That is very subjective as well.

Stranger was going to pervert the role of the Phoenix Force to serve his own ends, but he didn't actually have or obtain the power. The depiction you continually reference was simply an illustration of a possible outcome that was never realized. Given that the role of the Phoenix Force is the fundamental energy source of creation, it does seem like a great leveraging tool.

Based on common sense, the Stranger himself is not more powerful than any of the other abstracts, particularly Living Tribunal, and especially if they combined their efforts. There is no logical reason other than a plot device that a pantheon of omnipotent, omnipresent beings that embody universal conceptualization and the judge, jury, and executioner of all Marvel existence would have to go and ask for the assistance of Jean Grey to stop Stranger from obtaining the Phoenix Force power from her when he didn't already have the power in his posession and was not a threat until he actually acquired access to the force.

Now, in this instance, it is perfectly logical that Living Tribunal would not simply banish or destroy Stranger because he hadn't yet actually committed the crime (just as he didn't kill Warlock before he acquired the IG, or Thanos before he acquired the IG or HOTU), and after he had perpetrated this crime, the power source he would have in his employ, by purpose, would give him a glaring leveraging point over Living Tribunal because Stranger would have control of the fundamental substance of the creation cycle and be able to restart and reform creation to his own design at will, so yes, LT would be trumped, because his role is to protect to product of the Phoenix Force, he has no say in what shape or substance this product takes when created, he simply fulfills his role.

However, by your own "canon feats" definition, Stranger's displayed possible perversion of the Phoenix Force to subjugate the Abstracts is not an actual Phoenix feat, it's a Stranger feat equivalent to Thanos with the IG or Doom with the Power Cosmic.

The Phoenix Force on it's own is not given to such perversions and is bound by it's role, so this instance is not afforded to the will or actions of the Force, Jean, or it's sentience within the White Hot Room, and therefore is inadmissable as evidence of the Force itself acting and displaying domain over the Abstracts and Living Tribunal.

A catch 22.

So, as I've said all along, Living Tribunal and The Phoenix Force (the actual force) are supplementary peers.

Phoenix creates, Tribunal protects.


Yes but its something thats been stated to be achievable by one wielding the power of the Phoenix Force. Thats the crux of the matter. Its within the Phoenixes power to do so. This instance was never once presented by myself as evidence of Phoenix acting on its own without a host (i addressed that point earlier saying it was common knowledge that that could be done). This was just me stating of an instance where the two powers were weighed up against each other and Phoenix apparently comes out on top. So alot of your post was unnecessary and im sorry for leading you to interpret my actions in a way that made you think it was.

As for your point about Phoenix being bound by its role, about it not being given to such perversions, what do you think Dark Phoenix was all about?

Originally posted by illadelph12
Whirly really got to you, huh?

My opinion hasnt changed in the slightest so not really. I just happen to agree that conclusive on panel evidence is required for points to be treated as fact in debate, otherwise its just personal opinion which holds no weight if unsupported officially.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Yes but its something thats been stated to be achievable by one wielding the power of the Phoenix Force. Thats the crux of the matter. Its within the Phoenixes power to do so. This instance was never once presented by myself as evidence of Phoenix acting on its own without a host (i addressed that point earlier saying it was common knowledge that that could be done). This was just me stating of an instance where the two powers were weighed up against each other and Phoenix apparently comes out on top. So alot of your post was unnecessary and im sorry for leading you to interpret my actions in a way that made you think it was.

As for your point about Phoenix being bound by its role, about it not being given to such perversions, what do you think Dark Phoenix was all about?

Dark Phoenix is the Chaos Bringer, which is part of the Phoenix Force's role (creater/destroyer). It's not a perversion, per se, it's the other side of the Phoenix coin.

The Phoenix Force being wielded by Stranger so that he can reform creation in his own image is a perversion of it's purpose. The Phoenix Force is only to be wielded by chosen hosts/avatars specifically, and only so that they can carry out specific duties necessary for the multiversal life cycle's maintanence when called upon.

This "instance" is hollow.

It doesn't state why or in which manner the Phoenix Force is being used to subjugate the Abstracts and Tribunal, it just depicts them in a state where Stranger has them at his mercy without going into detail of why that has come to pass.

It's not specifically a showing of the Phoenix Force being more powerful than the Tribunal, it just shows that there is some undefined tactical advantage presented to Stranger when he wields the power, and as we both know, you don't have to be more powerful to have a tactical advantage.

David beat Goliath.

Ingenuity doesn't equal power.

You still have no 'canon' evidence that the Phoenix Force is more powerful than Living Tribunal, all you have is a picture depicting an ambiguous advantage afforded to Stranger by wielding the Phoenix Force outside the confines of it's purpose in the multiversal plan, and what that advantage is is not clearly defined, nor would it be afforded to the Phoenix Force acting on it's own free will because it's never been displayed in such an manner and is confined to it's role in creation.

No where is it stated specifically that the Phoenix Force is more powerful than Living Tribunal, nor are the limits of the Living Tribunal and the Phoenix Force powers defined.

All we know is the Phoenix Force is reponsible for creating, and Living Tribunal is sole purpose is protecting whatever Phoenix creates by any means deemed necessary.

If the Phoenix Force creates a sign that says "Living Tribunal's A F*cking 3 Headed Turd Muncher", LT's duty is to protect it, and he will, because that's his purpose.

It doesn't mean Phoenix is more powerful, it's simply a matter of designation and purpose.

The only thing Phoenix has on Tribunal, which is clear and canon, is that Phoenix is necessary for Tribunal to exist due to the fact that without a creation there's no need for Tribunal's role as protector of creation. Phoenix makes Tribunal's role, as well as the roles of all the Abstracts, possible, and necessary.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
My opinion hasnt changed in the slightest so not really. I just happen to agree that conclusive on panel evidence is required for points to be treated as fact in debate, otherwise its just personal opinion which holds no weight if unsupported officially.

Ok, but I'm gonna hold you to that my friend.

Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
The only problem I see with your theory, Jesse, is a What If? comic may not be part of Marvel continuity in any form what so ever. If it's not an alternate reality comic and literally just an "imaginary" excerpt then any multiversal being's appearance doesn't *have* to be canon. It might be kind of like an official fan fiction.

All "What ifs", are alternate reality. The premise is they are other Earths Uatu is watching!

It doesn't really matter - eventually there'll be Phoenix stating how incredibly powerful LT is compared to it in order to impress the readers. Cosmic hierarchies shift about constantly for the nature of the stories in marvel (they don't in dc because the omnipotent beings get more coverage)

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
All "What ifs", are alternate reality. The premise is they are other Earths Uatu is watching!

I knew you were coming...

Originally posted by illadelph12
Dark Phoenix is the Chaos Bringer, which is part of the Phoenix Force's role (creater/destroyer). It's not a perversion, per se, it's the other side of the Phoenix coin.

The Phoenix Force being wielded by Stranger so that he can reform creation in his own image is a perversion of it's purpose. The Phoenix Force is only to be wielded by chosen hosts/avatars specifically, and only so that they can carry out specific duties necessary for the multiversal life cycle's maintanence when called upon.

This "instance" is hollow.

It doesn't state why or in which manner the Phoenix Force is being used to subjugate the Abstracts and Tribunal, it just depicts them in a state where Stranger has them at his mercy without going into detail of why that has come to pass.

It's not specifically a showing of the Phoenix Force being more powerful than the Tribunal, it just shows that there is some undefined tactical advantage presented to Stranger when he wields the power, and as we both know, you don't have to be more powerful to have a tactical advantage.

David beat Goliath.

Ingenuity doesn't equal power.

You still have no 'canon' evidence that the Phoenix Force is more powerful than Living Tribunal, all you have is a picture depicting an ambiguous advantage afforded to Stranger by wielding the Phoenix Force outside the confines of it's purpose in the multiversal plan, and what that advantage is is not clearly defined, nor would it be afforded to the Phoenix Force acting on it's own free will because it's never been displayed in such an manner and is confined to it's role in creation.

No where is it stated specifically that the Phoenix Force is more powerful than Living Tribunal, nor are the limits of the Living Tribunal and the Phoenix Force powers defined.

All we know is the Phoenix Force is reponsible for creating, and Living Tribunal is sole purpose is protecting whatever Phoenix creates by any means deemed necessary.

If the Phoenix Force creates a sign that says "Living Tribunal's A F*cking 3 Headed Turd Muncher", LT's duty is to protect it, and he will, because that's his purpose.

It doesn't mean Phoenix is more powerful, it's simply a matter of designation and purpose.

The only thing Phoenix has on Tribunal, which is clear and canon, is that Phoenix is necessary for Tribunal to exist due to the fact that without a creation there's no need for Tribunal's role as protector of creation. Phoenix makes Tribunal's role, as well as the roles of all the Abstracts, possible, and necessary.



No need to counter this point for point as this comes down to a few main points which you have stretched out.

1)""Dark Phoenix wasnt a perversion of Phoenix from its "Phoenix work""

Incorrect. While it is within Phoenixes role to destroy it is only abiding by its role by destroying things which dont work, evolutionary dead ends, things which impedes the creation cycle, the universe at the end of time. The act of destroing in itself is not an example of Phoenix performing "Phoenix Work".

Hence why Phoenix considered her actions as Dark Phoenix a mistake and why Death deemed it a hard lesson she would learn from:

http://img465.imageshack.us/img465/4093/classicxmen043story2p133id.th.jpg

http://img465.imageshack.us/img465/4219/classicxmen043story2p147tc.th.jpg


http://img465.imageshack.us/img465/4717/classicxmen043story2p155cz.th.jpg

On top of that Phoenix went on to limit the power subsequent avatars (i.e Rachel) had access to for fear of a repeat of Dark Phoenix as stated in the bio. Phoenix destroys for the benefit of existence, for the maintenance of the creation cycle. Random acts of destruction arent included im afraid. Phoenix can and has strayed from its role Ill.

2) ""Phoenix Force can only be wielded by chosen avatars for specific duties""

Again incorrect. The Phoenix Force has been tapped into and wielded by Spiderman, Prof Xavier and Necrom for personal reasons. Also if that was the case then LT, Eternity and the like would hardly have felt the need to convene and approach Jean. Your opinion isnt supported.

Regardless in light of the fact that Jean herself can and has strayed from her role the point you were trying to make here is void.

The Stranger instance was far from hollow. The circumstances with which Stranger could have as stated made himself supreme being over LT and all others are irrelevant. Someone wielding the Phoenix power can humble LT as shown. Thats the crux of the matter. Whether its down to merely having more raw power or the confines of the characters roles its irrelevant. Your tactical advantage point can be used against HOTU as nowhere was it stated that it was more powerful than LT, despite clearly humbling him. However because of that depiction HOTU is ranked above LT. I take it you must disagree with that as well?

So to sum up Phoenix can and has acted outside the confines of its role

People other than avatars can and have wielded the power for their own personal reasons

Whether its tactical advantage or through sheer power the Phoenix power as shown and stated on panel can give a wielder the ability to become supreme being of reality, above LTs ability to intervene with.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
No need to counter this point for point as this comes down to a few main points which you have stretched out.

1)""Dark Phoenix wasnt a perversion of Phoenix from its "Phoenix work""

Incorrect. While it is within Phoenixes role to destroy it is only abiding by its role by destroying things which dont work, evolutionary dead ends, things which impedes the creation cycle, the universe at the end of time. The act of destroing in itself is not an example of Phoenix performing "Phoenix Work".

Hence why Phoenix considered her actions as Dark Phoenix a mistake and why Death deemed it a hard lesson she would learn from:

http://img465.imageshack.us/img465/4093/classicxmen043story2p133id.th.jpg

http://img465.imageshack.us/img465/4219/classicxmen043story2p147tc.th.jpg


http://img465.imageshack.us/img465/4717/classicxmen043story2p155cz.th.jpg

On top of that Phoenix went on to limit the power subsequent avatars (i.e Rachel) had access to for fear of a repeat of Dark Phoenix as stated in the bio. Phoenix destroys for the benefit of existence, for the maintenance of the creation cycle. Random acts of destruction arent included im afraid. Phoenix can and has strayed from its role Ill.

2) ""Phoenix Force can only be wielded by chosen avatars for specific duties""

Again incorrect. The Phoenix Force has been tapped into and wielded by Spiderman, Prof Xavier and Necrom for personal reasons. Also if that was the case then LT, Eternity and the like would hardly have felt the need to convene and approach Jean. Your opinion isnt supported.

Regardless in light of the fact that Jean herself can and has strayed from her role the point you were trying to make here is void.

The Stranger instance was far from hollow. The circumstances with which Stranger could have as stated made himself supreme being over LT and all others are irrelevant. Someone wielding the Phoenix power can humble LT as shown. Thats the crux of the matter. Whether its down to merely having more raw power or the confines of the characters roles its irrelevant. Your tactical advantage point can be used against HOTU as nowhere was it stated that it was more powerful than LT, despite clearly humbling him. However because of that depiction HOTU is ranked above LT. I take it you must disagree with that as well?

So to sum up Phoenix can and has acted outside the confines of its role

People other than avatars can and have wielded the power for their own personal reasons

Whether its tactical advantage or through sheer power the Phoenix power as shown and stated on panel can give a wielder the ability to become supreme being of reality, above LTs ability to intervene with.



Yeah, when I saw that scan of "Spider-Phoenix" after I made that post I almost fell out of my chair laughing.

Allow me to restate the point I was trying to make:

Without external influence the Phoenix Force itself can not act outside of it's purpose. What the wielders do with the power is given to their own designs, but this is the Force itself vs. LT.

It's never been clearly depicted how the power of the Phoenix Force or the Heart of the Universe asserts an advantage over Living Tribunal, so by your own standards of needing canon proof, the claim can not be made that either is more powerful because it's never been said or clearly defined that either of the power sources do anything more than supercede LT's jurisdiction (like the Time Twisters).

Originally posted by illadelph12
I knew you were coming...

Then I didn't dissapoint

Originally posted by illadelph12


Yeah, when I saw that scan of "Spider-Phoenix" after I made that post I almost fell out of my chair laughing.

Allow me to restate the point I was trying to make:

Without external influence the Phoenix Force itself can not act outside of it's purpose. What the wielders do with the power is given to their own designs, but this is the Force itself vs. LT.

I know that Spider Phoenix was so stupid but you just wait you see Bald Phoenix two guesses at who the host is.

Anyway back on topic, Jean Grey is the Phoenix Force. She is the force manifest, for the purpose of carrying out Phoenix work. Jean can and has acted outside of her role. Her evil side existed within her prior to Masterminds manipulations as stated in her bio. Its the very reason why she instinctively erected her psychic circuit breakers in the first place. Masterminds manipulations just brought it to the surface and she acted in kind, as per her nature. She wasnt mind controlled but swayed to embrace the other side of her nature so your point is moot.

Phoenix embodies passion as Death says in the previous scans with passion theres a fine line between light and shadow. Avatars must rein in the power or risk embracing the dark side of the dual natured Phoenix Force. Jean can use the power as she pleases theres no higher power automatically barring her from doing so. (Her actions as Dark Phoenix were written off by her as a lesson learned, a mistake.) Jean however has a purpose and she strives not to give into the temptation that comes with the power and nature of Phoenix.

Originally posted by illadelph12
It's never been clearly depicted how the power of the Phoenix Force or the Heart of the Universe asserts an advantage over Living Tribunal, so by your own standards of needing canon proof, the claim can not be made that either is more powerful because it's never been said or clearly defined that either of the power sources do anything more than supercede LT's jurisdiction (like the Time Twisters).

All of this is ultimately futile. In the end im still getting what i want. Whether you interpret X-men Forever as showing Phoenix being outright more powerful or a wielder of the power instead being able to supercede LT and bypass his judgements it doesnt matter. What cannot be argued against is that for the purpose of versus matches the Phoenix trumps LT. The Phoenix power can be wielded

As I've stated before, purpose doesn't equal power, so this 'advantage' afforded Phoenix bearers and HotU bearers could simply be based on role. There may still be instances where the hosts actions fall under Tribunal jurisdiction, an actual confrontation between the two forces has never been depicted. All that has been is Stranger's possible perversion that never came to pass, and it didn't depict the manner in which this subjugation was afforded.

So yes, I'll concede that there may be a yet undefined tactical advantage of the PF or HotU against the Tribunal, but not necessarily a degree of greater power (The Time Twisters weren't more powerful either). Perhaps the bearers are simply granted a form of "diplomatic immunity", if you will, within creation, and aren't bound by the laws Tribunal is commissioned to govern creation by.

Originally posted by illadelph12
As I've stated before, purpose doesn't equal power, so this 'advantage' afforded Phoenix bearers and HotU bearers could simply be based on role. There may still be instances where the hosts actions fall under Tribunal jurisdiction, an actual confrontation between the two forces has never been depicted. All that has been is Stranger's possible perversion that never came to pass, and it didn't depict the manner in which this subjugation was afforded.

So yes, I'll concede that there may be a yet undefined tactical advantage of the PF or HotU against the Tribunal, but not necessarily a degree of greater power (The Time Twisters weren't more powerful either). Perhaps the bearers are simply granted a form of "diplomatic immunity", if you will, within creation, and aren't bound by the laws Tribunal is commissioned to govern creation by.

So basically yes GS Phoenix beats LT in a versus match. Cool

No. It's a non fight due to Phoenix seemingly superceding LT's purpose as protector of creation.

On a side note, I'm disgusted that 3-6 Mafia won an Oscar award.

Nelly can do the Super Bowl with the Rolling Stones making nursery rhymes into songs.

50 Cent can go multi platinum and make movies and video games off being shot.

3-6 Mafia can win an Oscar and go platinum on songs about mixing Hennessey with Robitussin and it being hard to be a pimp.








Talib Kweli spits truth and can't go platinum?

Originally posted by illadelph12
No. It's a non fight due to Phoenix seemingly superceding LT's purpose as protector of creation.

But thats just a possibility. All we know is that the Phoenix power can be wielded to gain an advantage over LT. The factors determining that outcome ar unknown but irrelevant. The result is all that matters. As the advantage is imposed against the natural order that LTs role is to maintain then its just a case of LT being made redundant. Phoenix wins!! Damn im in such an annoying mood

Originally posted by illadelph12
On a side note, I'm disgusted that 3-6 Mafia won an Oscar award.

Agreed