Multiple universes and multiple multiverses which house these universes, in every universe there is a version of each being, abstract and entity, which has been shown in certain comics that each universe has its own abstracts; shown in the Korvac what if. Except for a few, Living Tribunal, TOAA, the phoenix force, now if Living Tribunal is above all universes, multiverses, alternate realities, what if universes, and existences, then that would mean their is only one Living Tribunal but omni like. If this is so then that means the Living Tribunal showed in all comics including what if's is canon showing of Living Tribunal since he is above all of these universes and multiverses and their is only one of him meaning the one Living Tribunal showing must be the Living Tribunal. This brings me to my next point
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From: "What If the X-Men lost Inferno"
Living Tribunal is shown to be holding the Phoenix as a mere object or a Child's toy, now if Phoenix is above reality constraints then that means that their is only one phoenix not multiple phoenix's, not one for each universe. If this is true that the Phoenix force is Omni like then then that means that there is only one phoenix force just as their is only one Living Tribunal. The Living Tribunal is shown to be able to wield it and hold it like a mere object. Now if their are multiple phoenix's, one for each respected reality and universe, then that means the Phoenix force is not omni like. If you claim that it is only a what if and thus is not canon, then you should know that LT is above all Marvel multiverses including What if's meaning his showings are canon since their is only one LT and that is him. Now if Phoenix is weaker in a what if, then that means she is not Omni like, for if the phoenix force was purely Omni then it would be unlimited and unrestrained no matter what dimension or universe it is in, but clearly it is not here.
The Phoenix force is not the most powerful force in existence, nor do I believe that it is second. If the Living Tribunal is above the Phoenix Force, then that means those above the Living Tribunal are above the Phoenix Force, thus Korvac of the alternate dimension which out powered the Living Tribunal is arguably more powerful then the Phoenix Force, the HOTU which defeated the Living Tribunal is more powerful then the Phoenix Force, the IG which the Living Tribunal was not sure if it could defeat him or not, thus would be more powerful then the phoenix Force.
So many feats brought up in favor of the Phoenix Force, yet the Phoenix force never did anything to save the multiverse when it was threatened by the HOTU or the IG, one could argue it was purely because the Phoenix Force saw it as nothing but child's play, but I believe that to be untrue. The Living Tribunal steped up to defend the Marvel Multiverses, but did the phoenix force, no it did not. Thanos even made it to TOAA and stalemated him. The Phoenix force was helpless to do anything against Thanos and the HOTU. If it took TOAA to undo what Thanos did, and in doing so TOAA burning out his powers, then thinking that the Phoenix Force is more powerful then such I find to be untrue.
Claiming that the Phoenix force is this fundamental force of creation and thus is master of all created, but know this that creation only extends to what you take part in creating, the phoenix may be a force of creation, but when you take it to a level of thinking forces become thoughts and emotions of some one much more powerful and beyond the imagination and thought of the one created.
Point being, the Phoenix force is not the most powerful force in Marvel, nor do I believe it to be the second, or the third, or the fourth.
Last edited by Board Walker on Mar 1st, 2006 at 07:09 AM
the LT never did either, Pheonix was shown to be beyond the reach of the chaos wave in the house of M story arcs there are pheonix avatars in the universes the main force has to act through them but they have only a small portion of the pheonix force just like darkseid has avatars that can be defeated while he himself has never been defeated the PF works the same Eternity himself stated that the LT was one of the ones that the PF has jurisdiction over when destroying or creating a universe, the LT has been shown to be defied by ONE sorcerer Supreme, and Korvac who was only more powerful then eternity, the LT has also doubted his power against the IG which is only powerful in ONE universe as seen in JLA/Avengers. The LT may have held the PF in that universe all that can tell me is that that PF avatar was not that powerful they are all at diffrent levels rachal summers is said to be nothing compared to jean as an avatar thus is my point in comparing universe avatars, in one universe the goblin force absorbed the PF and in 616 galactus has been shown to stalemate it i believe but i also believe later he was shown to be scared of it. Meaning when that happend whoever the avatar was must have just reached a greater level of controll over that avatar, avatars dont need the LT to defeat them even Xorn has killed one but not the PF itself the PF must act through MORTAL avatars that are supeptible to death the PF would choose ANOTHER avatar later.
Phoenix was not shown to be beyond the reach of the chaos wave, that is speculation.
Also as stated, their is a avatar for the Phoenix Force in each Universe, meaning that the phoenix force is powerless to act without an avatar. As you said yourself the IG has control over the universe it is of thus it would have controlf over the phoenix avatar of that respected universe.
Eternity can state that the Phoenix Force is more powerful then TOAA but does that make it true, no it does not. Eternity's superior is LT as shown in the comic in which LT is passing judgdment on Adam Warlock who has the IG. Eternity also desired the IG when LT was deciding of what to do with it, but Adam added that if given to Eternity he might become LT's superior, now how then can a universal affecting only object put Eternity above LT a multiversal being?
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Last edited by Board Walker on Mar 1st, 2006 at 07:43 AM
you can post scans all i know is that it did not reach the room, a being called romna was able to seal the breach the wave had created she is probably below the main PF since the PF helped create the nexus of realities from what i can remeber i think this is true.
The White Phoenix of the crown is below HOTU, True Beyonders, Living Tribunal, and multiversal concepts of Eternity and Oblivion. The Crown itself, that is the sheer primal force in its ultimate form however is above LT. That I will agree with, since it basically is TOAA's aspect of creation for the multiverse.
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The only problem I see with your theory, Jesse, is a What If? comic may not be part of Marvel continuity in any form what so ever. If it's not an alternate reality comic and literally just an "imaginary" excerpt then any multiversal being's appearance doesn't *have* to be canon. It might be kind of like an official fan fiction.
__________________ Originally posted by -Pr- a great big penis.
Perhaps Marvel's desire to one-up itself (and/or DC) has outpaced its ability to keep track of all the "ultimate beings" it has fiddling about in its superdupermultiverse.
More likely, it just doesn't care about keeping everything orderly the way fans would like to see things.
And BTW, why wouldn't a What If story be part of the multiverse? I mean, after all, it is an alternate universe.
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IG was shown to work in the ultraverse, now canon, so perhaps it's powers are pan-universal. in any event, they CAN extend beyond the MU. and any what if appearance of lt is considered canon since there is supposed to be only one of him . . .
A rubbish argument based on an old scan which has been dealt with many times before youngster. Youre bringing nothing new to the table so there is no need for me to tear apart your post.
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Mar 1st, 2006 06:55 AM
