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Master of time Manipulation vs Universal realty manipulation..

Which one would be off better use in a fight? The fastest to pull off? Change the course of ones destiny? Which one is better overall? Kinda similar to Extant vs Scarlet Thread.. Cept this one both have equal skills in the use of those powers...

I would say time manip. Becaues once you go back in time to when the person was a little kid, it wont really matter as to whats going on in the current battle. But with reality manip you have to stay in that moment and shoot out energy or whatever.

id say reality........ with infinite reality manipulating skills would time even have a meaning?

lol

personally id say reality, because at that point time is almost the 4th universal dimension, so hypothetically, one who is a master of reality manipulation would also be able to control time

Originally posted by Galan777
id say reality........ with infinite reality manipulating skills would time even have a meaning?
True. But it comes down to that moment the battle starts. Which power is quicker?

Originally posted by Brian Oswald
True. But it comes down to that moment the battle starts. Which power is quicker? something like that would vary with the user......

but think of it this way, time is an aspect of reality, so if one can manipulate reality, then one can manipulate time as well

You know what if they attack at desame time and both time and realty manipulating interact at each other? Which attack would win?

You know i think id agree with Brian, time would probably be better off the 2, I mean one can manipulate realty but if somebody used time manipulation and say go back in time and somehow prevent the person from ever being born that would mean that person that reality thats been manipulated would not exist...

But isnt realty manipulation only works for present and future not the past while time both should work on past/presen and future.. I dont know if its making since..

Originally posted by Roldz
You know what if they attack at desame time and both time and realty manipulating interact at each other? Which attack would win?

You know i think id agree with Brian, time would probably be better off the 2, I mean one can manipulate realty but if somebody used time manipulation and say go back in time and somehow prevent the person from ever being born that would mean that person that reality thats been manipulated would not exist...
And it all comes down to the user. If it is complete mastery of both I think reality takes it. But of its like Scarlet Witch vs some time manipulator that is at her leve of manipulation, I think time would take it.

Originally posted by Roldz
But isnt realty manipulation only works for present and future not the past while time both should work on past/presen and future.. I dont know if its making since.. complete reality manipulation would encompass past, present, and future, as all of those are a part of reality itself and thus would be under the user's control

True. If you have complete control of reality, just like time, you could , theoretically, make it so that someone is, always was, and will always be, a toaster.

That does make sense... I was just thinking of Extant vs SW when i was writing those post.. And the diff. is that Extant control not just one timeline but multiple timelines where all times Intersect.. and can manipulate it instantly like say when he drained GL ring by speeding time around him and was drained instantly.. But I quess Realty manipulation is better overall...

Originally posted by Roldz
That does make sense... I was just thinking of Extant vs SW when i was writing those post.. And the diff. is that Extant control not just one timeline but multiple timelines where all times Intersect.. and can manipulate it instantly like say when he drained GL ring by speeding time around him and was drained instantly.. But I quess Realty manipulation is better overall... Well Wanda didnt even have complete mastery of reality but still her feats trump extant's who did have complete mastery over time, so you can look at it that way as well........

but if its complete manipulation over time v.s. complete manipulation over reality, then reality manipulation wins every time

Yeah realty manipulation would always be bigger feat than time manipulation.. If both have equal mastery of it.... Well weve got the winner of best overall...

Isn't time part of reality?

Extant has done everything Wanda did,

He recreated the Universe in JSA 12-13,
He brought back the dead, Dove.

Time manipulation trumps reality. You can alter Reality to say the sky is green. But time manipulation can prevent the atmosphere from ever forming in the first place.

Originally posted by Ext@nt
Extant has done everything Wanda did,

He recreated the Universe in JSA 12-13,
He brought back the dead, Dove.

Time manipulation trumps reality. You can alter Reality to say the sky is green. But time manipulation can prevent the atmosphere from ever forming in the first place. time is part of reality, if you control reality, then you control time as well....... this is why reality manipulation wins

and wanda not only destroyed the universe numerous times, but she re-created it just as quickly....... when did extant ever do that?

and keep in mind that wanda never had complete mastery of reality......... Extant had complete mastry over time.....

Control over reality, allows you complete mastery to time as well since your basicly Eternity in that manipulated reality...

Originally posted by Roldz
Control over reality, allows you complete mastery to time as well since your basicly Eternity in that manipulated reality... Precisely!

Reality wins

Why?

Can time manipulation turn Wolverine into a zebra?

How does reality control time? If I can control reality I can control the way the present is but I cannot control the past and the future.

I dont see why you think that.

Originally posted by Ext@nt
How does reality control time? If I can control reality I can control the way the present is but I cannot control the past and the future.

I dont see why you think that.
By effecting the present you can affect the past. Like If I make it so that you are a zebra, not just turning you into a zebra but changing reality so that you were born a zebra.

But up until that point in time it wasnt, see Reality only makes the present different.

Example:
At 11pm: Thanos uses the reality gem to make thor into a zebra.

Extant travels back to 10:59 pm thor is still thor since he hasnt been changed yet. IF Extant could get the gem away from Thanos then Thor would never become the Zebra.

What I'm saying is that when he manipulates reality at 11 at Thor becomes a Zebra. He rewrites reality so that Thor was always a Zebra. So from that point on reality has been altered and Extant can't go back to the time when Thor was not a Zebra, unless he goes to some alternate timeline or something.

I could be wrong about this whole 'rewriting' reality though

Yes you are, If you have control of reality you can alter reality from that point on you cannot alter anything in the past.

Example: Wanda altered reality, But a few people remembered what the past really was cause she couldnt alter the past she recreated reality and everyone believed it cause their minds were folded into that new reality.

Got cha'

Originally posted by Roldz
but if somebody used time manipulation and say go back in time and somehow prevent the person from ever being born that would mean that person that reality thats been manipulated would not exist...

Wanda controlled the Past, the Present and the Future.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Wanda controlled the Past, the Present and the Future.

No she didn't she altered the present and that was it.

Originally posted by Brian Oswald
By effecting the present you can affect the past. Like If I make it so that you are a zebra, not just turning you into a zebra but changing reality so that you were born a zebra.

Exactly,

and that's what Causality is,

changing an event, to reach a different result, hence controlling Time.

Wanda changed the Past by making it as though Spiderman's X Gwen never died, Steve Rogers never took the SSS, so he still lived but never became Captain America.
The Avengers were alive again, because Wanda changed the past when she killed them.

Wanda even accelerated Genis's potential to its maximum, to Insane Genis-Vell Levels (he began blinking the Universe In and Out of existence, because of Wanda)

And on and on.

Originally posted by Brian Oswald
What I'm saying is that when he manipulates reality at 11 at Thor becomes a Zebra. He rewrites reality so that Thor was always a Zebra. So from that point on reality has been altered and Extant can't go back to the time when Thor was not a Zebra, unless he goes to some alternate timeline or something.

I could be wrong about this whole 'rewriting' reality though

Actually, your making sense.

So proceed.

Originally posted by Ext@nt
No she didn't she altered the present and that was it.

Should I start drilling you with scans?

That show Wanda altering the Past, Present and Future.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Exactly,

and that's what Causality is,

changing an event, to reach a different result, hence controlling Time.

Wanda changed the Past by making it as though Spiderman's X Gwen never died, Steve Rogers never took the SSS, so he still lived but never became Captain America.
The Avengers were alive again, because Wanda changed the past when she killed them.

Wanda even accelerated Genis's potential to its maximum, to Insane Genis-Vell Levels (he began blinking the Universe In and Out of existence, because of Wanda)

And on and on.

All of that was reality control and nothing else. She never erased the fact that she killed hawkeye, she just made him alive again. The same with Gwen Stacy. She created a reality where Genis power was at its maximum.

All of this is REALITY alteration and nothing else.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Should I start drilling you with scans?

That show Wanda altering the Past, Present and Future.
I'd like to see some

Originally posted by Ext@nt
All of that was reality control and nothing else. She never erased the fact that she killed hawkeye, she just made him alive again. The same with Gwen Stacy. She created a reality where Genis power was at its maximum.

All of this is REALITY alteration and nothing else.
But she could still rewrite reality if she wants to, not just alter it

Originally posted by Ext@nt
No she didn't she altered the present and that was it.
No she altered the past as well...

Originally posted by Ext@nt
Example: Wanda altered reality, But a few people remembered what the past really was cause she couldnt alter the past she recreated reality and everyone believed it cause their minds were folded into that new reality.

Not exactly,

The ONLY person in HOM that remembered the Past without Layla Miller's help was Wolverine.

The ONLY reason Wolvy remembered is because Wanda gave EVERYONE their heart's desire.

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/3315/wanda19kr3.th.jpg

Wolvy's desire was to know his past, in getting that memory back, he also received the memory of what had happened.
So in effect Wanda gave him the ability to remember.


Layla Miller was Re-created by Wanda as a plot device, because no one was going to stop Wanda.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Not exactly,

The ONLY person in HOM that remembered the Past without Layla Miller's help was Wolverine.

The ONLY reason Wolvy remembered is because Wanda gave EVERYONE their heart's desire.

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/3315/wanda19kr3.th.jpg

Wolvy's desire was to know his past, in getting that memory back, he also received the memory of what had happened.
So in effect Wanda gave him the ability to remember.


Layla Miller was Re-created by Wanda as a plot device, because no one was going to stop Wanda.

Thats still reality altering. Theres nothing Wanda did that Extant hasnt done himself and with more skill.

Originally posted by Ext@nt
Thats still reality altering. Theres nothing Wanda did that Extant hasnt done himself and with more skill.

Like I said in the other thread,

point out to me when Extant put EVERYTHING that is DC in jeopardy.

Wanda neraly DESTROYED EVERYTHING that is MARVEL.

Not the universe
Not the Multi-verse
Not Multi-verses

Wanda was Destroying the Omni-verse (EVERYTHING that IS Marvel)

Extant couldve erased the Big Bang itself. hence no DCU at all.

Erasing a big bang is universal.

yeah but he can also do it for other timelines as well,

Since the Anti-Monitor wiped out the Multiverese they discovered a new series of paralel universes they called Hypertime.

i think reality manipulation would win one could ben the laws of the universe includeing tempral lawas to their will the could negate tempral powers

yes but her powers work as a wave spreading outward as shown in House of M #1 whereas Extant power works instantly as shown in JSA#12.

Look: The concepts of space and time are tools, which, used in conjunction, make up reality. Joe drove his car in Queens, New York at 5:30. That is the reality. To alter that means you are able to alter anything, at full power.

Now, what Reality cannot change is what already happened. If Wanda turns Peter Parker into a monkey (spidermonkey ) someone could go back to when he was born to his monkey-parents. However, concievably, someone could access the original, unaltered timeline, to before he was changed into a monkey. Thus, time can work outside reality manipulation. But it is still a part of reality. Which is why Realitytrumps 10/10

Time could turn Wolverine into anything if you knew how to do it. But you would have to physically do it. You could go back and genetically engineer him to become a zebra.

But reality would be better because u could simply recreate reallity the way you want it to be with time u hav to make it something that could have really happened not like making rick james a chair in the watchtower

LOL I think we are all going to have headaches before this is over.

Now I want to see Spider-monkey!!!

Originally posted by Ext@nt
yes but her powers work as a wave spreading outward as shown in House of M #1 whereas Extant power works instantly as shown in JSA#12.

Now your going to places you shouldn't.

That's false.

Wanda's power does NOT operate in a wave form, I don't know where you got that from.


The Chaos Wave spreads, on that your correct.


When Wanda Remade 616 like for the 8th time, it was always by exploding the Universe and then Recreating it instantaneously.


Wanda REMAKING the 616 Reality for the first time
http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/6653/w2oe5.th.jpg

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/5301/w1ti8.th.jpg

NEXT PANEL

And thats it, the Universe has been REMADE
http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/8318/w3zc5.th.jpg


I think I see what you thought you saw in the artistic representation, but as you can see, within TWO Panels the Universe has been REMADE.
That would fall under the category (INSTANTANEOUS)

For instance, in House of M, Wanda remade reality so that the reality which she created was always like that. It had always been. But, as stated, one could concievably access the previous, unaltered timeline. Now, the question is whether you can do that soley with time manip

Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
For instance, in House of M, Wanda remade reality so that the reality which she created was always like that. It had always been. But, as stated, one could concievably access the previous, unaltered timeline. Now, the question is whether you can do that soley with time manip

We must be forgetting the other side of the coin.

Why wouldn't Wanda just take his powers away?

Or Wanda can make a Reality where Extant has no powers, or different powers.

Or Wanda can make it so he never absorbs the Warlog and Mobius Chair.

That last one works both ways.

And this isn't Wanda vs. Extant.

This is someone with perfect control of Reality vs. Extant.

Meaning Reality wins.

Every damn time.

Originally posted by Mr Master
We must be forgetting the other side of the coin.

Why wouldn't Wanda just take his powers away?

Or Wanda can make a Reality where Extant has no powers, or different powers.

Or Wanda can make it so he never absorbs the Warlog and Mobius Chair.

So your saying they are basically equal then? And I dont know if Extant can be effected by Time altering since once he absorbed the Worlogog and Mobius he became a time elemental and was in essence par tof time itself.

One question I have is the Chaos Wave a form of energy?

Originally posted by Ext@nt
So your saying they are basically equal then? And I dont know if Extant can be effected by Time altering since once he absorbed the Worlogog and Mobius he became a time elemental and was in essence par tof time itself.

I'm beginning to lean towards, Stalemate.


Originally posted by Ext@nt
One question I have is the Chaos Wave a form of energy?

Nah, Magic.

oh okay. cause if it was energy he would pull the waverider trick and become chaoswave extant and then we are all in trouble.

Originally posted by Ext@nt
Extant has done everything Wanda did,

He recreated the Universe in JSA 12-13,
He brought back the dead, Dove.

Time manipulation trumps reality. You can alter Reality to say the sky is green. But time manipulation can prevent the atmosphere from ever forming in the first place.

How in the world would you prevent the atmosphere from even forming with time manipulation?

Reality manipulation is above time manipulation cause reality also inclueds time and so on

Originally posted by juggernaut66666
Reality manipulation is above time manipulation cause reality also inclueds time and so on

No it doesnt actually, I've already covered this in this thread, Its just when a new reality is made everyones minds just adapt to the new version.


Can we just argue this is the Extant vs Wanda thread cause its kinda pointless to have 2 threads arguing the exact same thing.

I'm not to sure, Time Manip, Manipulate the past to your own whim more or less Reality Manip. But Reality Manip can do more i believe, as it can alter ANYTHING more or less.

Originally posted by Ext@nt
So your saying they are basically equal then? And I dont know if Extant can be effected by Time altering since once he absorbed the Worlogog and Mobius he became a time elemental and was in essence par tof time itself.
But time is a part of reality, and reality manipulator manipulates that reality, even if Extant is a time elemental his still within the law of that reality therefor a reality manipulator has far more control of time than a elemental... Its basicly like Galactus control of PC compare to SS controls of PC...

Time is not part of reality otherwise there wouldnt be a time gem AND a reality gem.

Ive used the example over in the extant vs wanda thread where this same arguement is going on.

reality manipulaters can trancend the concept of time not to mention create or destroy it.

hey guys i had the extant v.s. SW thread closed, because it was turned into a debate more suited for this thread

Originally posted by leonheartmm
reality manipulaters can trancend the concept of time not to mention create or destroy it.

Please provide proof of this.

When anti-monitor died reality was altered. Flash was able to travel back in time to before that point.

Extant was smart in this area cause he used his powers to spread himself out all over time. So even if one extant was killed there is always another one.

Originally posted by Galan777
hey guys i had the extant v.s. SW thread closed, because it was turned into a debate more suited for this forum

Forum, you mean thread? Anyway shall we carry on in here then folks.

Originally posted by Sub_Mariner
Forum, you mean thread? lol, yeah thats what i meant

So:I blink Galan from existence, from EVER EXISTING, EVER=Past, Present Future.

Originally posted by Sub_Mariner
So:I blink Galan from existence, from EVER EXISTING, EVER=Past, Present Future.

You would have to have control over reality AND time, not just reality. Otherwise someone can go back to before you did it and stop you.

Not really, wiping someone from existence=Reality mostly.

Originally posted by Ext@nt
You would have to have control over reality AND time, not just reality. Otherwise someone can go back to before you did it and stop you. but you see, to manipulate reality you have to have control over time to some degree, because you can make things as though they were, are, and always will be, something completely different then they started out as....

Originally posted by Ext@nt
Time is not part of reality otherwise there wouldnt be a time gem AND a reality gem.

Ive used the example over in the extant vs wanda thread where this same arguement is going on.
Those Gems are is a product of a very powerfull entity... Nothing to do with a Universe.. Its split into 7soul gems allowing each one access to a powersource...

How the heck does time work if there is no reality, time moves because of it, it exist because of it...


because it was still a continuity for that reality, Wanda remade the whole Universe...

Originally posted by Galan777
but you see, to manipulate reality you have to have control over time to some degree, because you can make things as though they were, are and always will be, something completely different then they started out....

No you can't.

For example in house of m, Steve Rogers wasnt captian america. She acomplished this by takign his abilities away and altering his mind so that he believed the new reality that was made.

A person could still go back to before pietro entered her room and stop him and the whole thing never wouldve happened.

Originally posted by Ext@nt
No you can't.

For example in house of m, Steve Rogers wasnt captian america. She acomplished this by takign his abilities away and altering his mind so that he believed the new reality that was made.

A person could still go back to before pietro entered her room and stop him and the whole thing never wouldve happened. and a reality manipulator could make it as though the time manipulator never had their powers

Originally posted by Galan777
and a reality manipulator could make it as though the time manipulator never had their powers

Yep, just like CA take there powers away or stop them from ever getting them/been born.

Originally posted by Galan777
and a reality manipulator could make it as though the time manipulator never had their powers

Not that they "NEVER" had. They can make it so they "NO LONGER HAVE".

Which wouldnt work on Extant since there are copies running all around the timestream.

Originally posted by Ext@nt
Not that they "NEVER" had. They can make it so they "NO LONGER HAVE".

Which wouldnt work on Extant since there are copies running all around the timestream.

Are these copies of the original Extant?

Originally posted by Ext@nt
Not that they "NEVER" had. They can make it so they "NO LONGER HAVE".

Which wouldnt work on Extant since there are copies running all around the timestream. extant still exists within a universe..... Wanda re-wrote the universe, hence in one swift blow she makes it as though all the extant copies no longer have their powers

Originally posted by Ext@nt
Not that they "NEVER" had. They can make it so they "NO LONGER HAVE".

Which wouldnt work on Extant since there are copies running all around the timestream.
Isnt the timestream part of this reality... Why not just will them not to exist.. Therefore no more extants..

Or Just: "No More Extant."

Anyway this thread is now turning into Extant vs Wanda.

Originally posted by Sub_Mariner
Or Just: "No More Extant."

Anyway this thread is now turning into Extant vs Wanda. it figures lol

This never actually happened..

I don't know the idea behind reality warping powers seem to be the bility to alter the present thus as making someone not exist is as simple as not making them exist at the moment.

I understand some people are trying to say but they would make them never exist even in the begining which is not true and I'll use the X-man Bishop for this little demo.

Bishop comes back and helps stop something bad from happening after doing said deed he still exists even after time has been altered. Now this means that while reality from that point on had changed he still existed in time because he was outside of the reality that had happened by being out of that reality and in a different time.

Originally posted by Roldz
This never actually happened..

Yes it actualy still did happen. No cause if it didnt then you have a paradox. Cause if it never happened then Wanda never made the House of M universe.

Why is this so hard to understand? Reality alters the present and if left unchanged the future, but it has no power over events before reality was altered.

Ive provided 2 examples to prove this which have been completely ignored. So if all your going to do is try to out post me and not listen to anything I'm actually saying then this debate is pointless.

Originally posted by Galan777
extant (even all of his copies) still exist within a universe..... Wanda destroyed/re-wrote the universe, hence in one swift blow she makes it as though all the extant copies no longer have their powers ^

Originally posted by Galan777
^

No she cannot effect the copies which are in the past.

As I stated I've given to example, one of which is from the comics how reality is altered yet a person can travel back to before the reality altering happened hence it doesn't effect the past.

Originally posted by Ext@nt
No she cannot effect the copies which are in the past.

As I stated I've given to example, one of which is from the comics how reality is altered yet a person can travel back to before the reality altering happened hence it doesn't effect the past. Why? cap america existed in the present and in the past, and Wanda made it as though he NEVER took the serum, she could do the same type of thing to Extant

Originally posted by Ext@nt
Yes it actualy still did happen. No cause if it didnt then you have a paradox. Cause if it never happened then Wanda never made the House of M universe.

Why is this so hard to understand? Reality alters the present and if left unchanged the future, but it has no power over events before reality was altered.

Ive provided 2 examples to prove this which have been completely ignored. So if all your going to do is try to out post me and not listen to anything I'm actually saying then this debate is pointless.
See this is why i think Extants would probably win against Wanda if Extants powers activate faster than her but if not that paradox you call wouldnt even exist , because it never happened..

I'll try again...
Time and Space are tools used to make up the Reality in which a character lives. However, as we have seen so far, even Reality manipulators have limitations. The limitation is that, they do not alter our current reality. Instead, they make a new one. Which is why, with time manip powers, you could either go back to the beginning of this false reality, or, concievably, go back to before it was formed, and the unaltered timeline.

However- could someone with complete mastery over reality manipulation instead of creatin a new reality, simply permanently alter the current one? So that traveling to before it was created becomes impossible.

Depends on your will and grasp of reality manipulation.

A great reality manipulator, can manipulate time--the 4th dimension, as well as the 3 dimensions of space. I'm not sure how comic book physics relate to real world physics; but according to many physicists, time may be different in different parts of the universe. Like black holes, as you approach the event horizon of a black hole, time slows down and you experience time slower than a person that would be looking at you disappear in an instant. A time manipluator cant travel back before the reality was being manipulated in that area, or dimension, or universe. It would either A. Be traveling back in a warped reality, B. time travel would not occur at all, or C. he'd end up in an alternate reality, depending on the grasp on each of both opponents. But someone on a universal scale that warps reality could somehow trap the time-traveler? I think so.

Originally posted by Ext@nt
No she cannot effect the copies which are in the past.

As I stated I've given to example, one of which is from the comics how reality is altered yet a person can travel back to before the reality altering happened hence it doesn't effect the past.
Why not?
Also depending on how that reality was altered if it still followed the exact same timestream then you can go back in time before such manipulation occured but what happens if reality was completely altered including the timestream where none of the past existed..

Originally posted by Galan777
Why? cap america existed in the present and in the past, and Wanda made it as though he NEVER took the serum, she could do the same type of thing to Extant

No she took his powers away and he thought he never did.

If the events leading up to Wanda making House of M never existed, then House of M never existed.

It becomes a Paradox which destorys the universe.

Hence the events that created House of M still exist and can be altered.

Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
I'll try again...
Time and Space are tools used to make up the Reality in which a character lives. However, as we have seen so far, even Reality manipulators have limitations. The limitation is that, they do not alter our current reality. Instead, they make a new one. Which is why, with time manip powers, you could either go back to the beginning of this false reality, or, concievably, go back to before it was formed, and the unaltered timeline.

However- could someone with complete mastery over reality manipulation instead of creatin a new reality, simply permanently alter the current one? So that traveling to before it was created becomes impossible.
Didnt Wanda do this...

No offence but with everyone using HOM Wanda as refernce. If she had changed all reality including time would that not mean that they would never be able to go back to the original reality???

Originally posted by Ext@nt
No she took his powers away and he thought he never did.

If the events leading up to Wanda making House of M never existed, then House of M never existed.

It becomes a Paradox which destorys the universe.

Hence the events that created House of M still exist and can be altered.
This would only happen if Extants power worked faster than that of Wanda....

The point I'm trying to make is, there has to be a point where a new reality is created otherwise it can never BE made and a paradox occurs and reality goes bye bye.

Why are we punishing ourselves by arguing temperol mechanics?

Originally posted by Ext@nt
No she took his powers away and he thought he never did.

If the events leading up to Wanda making House of M never existed, then House of M never existed.

It becomes a Paradox which destorys the universe.

Hence the events that created House of M still exist and can be altered.

The bottom line is that this thread is complete reality manipulation v.s. complete time manipulation. not wanda v.s. extant

and if you have complete mastery over reality then you control the reality in the past, present, and future. (so you in essence control time as well, because time IS a part of reality)

So whoever controls reality to the fullest, can not only manipulate time, but they can manipulate reality in every disension, not just the present.

for that reason complete reality manipulation wins everytime.

Originally posted by Galan777
The bottom line is that this thread is complete reality manipulation v.s. complete time manipulation. not wanda v.s. extant

and if you have complete mastery over reality then you control the reality in the past, present, and future. (so you in essence control time as well, because time IS a part of reality)

So whoever controls reality to the fullest, can not only manipulate time, but they can manipulate reality in every disension, not just the present.

for that reason reality manipulation wins everytime.

And you have yet to give me an example of a reality manipulator altering the past.

Originally posted by Ext@nt
And you have yet to give me an example of a reality manipulator altering the past. examples are not needed, there is no way to debate the statment i made

Originally posted by Ext@nt
And you have yet to give me an example of a reality manipulator altering the past.

or one of a time manipulator traversing a reality, of a reality manipulator on a universal scale.

Originally posted by Galan777
examples are not needed, there is no way to debate the statment i made

Reality manipulation allows you to alter the present and if left unchaned the future but not the past, please provide scans showing otherwise.

And I am really starting to regret making that respect thread.

Originally posted by Ext@nt
Reality manipulation allows you to alter the present and if left unchaned the future but not the past, please provide scans showing otherwise. Ok well provide scans showing a time manipulator in some way manipulating a reality shaped by a reality manipulator...... Do you see what I just did there?

Originally posted by newjak86
No offence but with everyone using HOM Wanda as refernce. If she had changed all reality including time would that not mean that they would never be able to go back to the original reality???
HOM was 616 universe when she manipulated it and even when she turned it back it was still not original, depowerd mutant and all.. So when she manipulate a reality it becomes the original one... Dont know if that made sense...

Yeah and this thread was a bad idea as was my respect thread since it's causing a fight between us that everyone can see.

The flash example proves that after reality has been altered you can travel in time back to a point where it hasnt been altered yet.

By the way Deadman pulled the same trick in "Dead again"

Originally posted by Ext@nt
Yeah and this thread was a bad idea as was my respect thread since it's causing a fight between us that everyone can see. Its not fighting my friend, just debating...... everything has been kept well civilized (as always).

If people never disagreed with one another, then KMC would be a very boring site

Originally posted by Roldz
HOM was 616 universe when she manipulated it and even when she turned it back it was still not original, depowerd mutant and all.. So when she manipulate a reality it becomes the original one... Dont know if that made sense... Correct, even though Wanda "turned reality back" some of her changes still remained, namely 90% of the mutants still being depowered

Originally posted by Ext@nt
Yeah and this thread was a bad idea as was my respect thread since it's causing a fight between us that everyone can see.

The flash example proves that after reality has been altered you can travel in time back to a point where it hasnt been altered yet.

By the way Deadman pulled the same trick in "Dead again"
I HATE YOU MAN ....lol
Not really, where having a socialized debate...
back on topic..
Question? How bad was that reality altered? there is a diff. between altering a reality while still following its time stream meaning that reality was only manipulated at present to future... but a master realty manipulator should be able to manipulate that same past as well...
When Thanos turned Runner into a baby.. he manipulated realty around runner also by bypassing time... realty can exist without time... man im just mambling, dont even know what im writing..lol

Ok look, time IS an aspect of reality. The five primary Infinity Gems, each represent one of realities basic building blocks(Mind, Soul, Time, Space, Power). Now those five gems give the user limited control over one particular aspect, but not COMPLETE control. In order to have complete control, the user HAS to have access to the reality gem also. For instance, someone with the space gem is able to teleport to another location, right? However, by using the space gem WITH the reality gem, the user could bring the desired location to him, by altering the reality of the locations place in space.

Here everyone take a look at something, this is from the Infinity War when the Magus and Warlock are battling over an incomplete Infinity Gauntlet...
http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/5011/infintywars0622zh7.th.jpg
See, when they start trying to mess with the fundamental forces of the universe without the reality gem to properly manage them, it causes a breach in the fabric of reality. And by the same token...
http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/8452/warlockchronicles120yy7.th.jpg
When the Reality Gem is used without the other five gems to focus it, there's another case of a reality rift. Warlock even comments that Thanos would know better than to use the Reality Gem, with out the others to control it.

See, think of the primary gems as the things that actually MAKE the changes, and the Reality Gem cements them into place. NONE of the primary gems give absolute control over their respective aspects, without the Reality Gem to seal the deal. And the Reality Gem doesn't give absolute control over it's aspect, without the other gems to focus the changes. Basically, a complete Infinity Gauntlet is simply absolute control over reality, and all its facets.

Also, when Warlock went inside of the second rift in reality, take a look at what he experienced...
http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/851/warlockchronicles210zf3.th.jpg
http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/986/warlockchronicles211eh9.th.jpg
http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/4054/warlockchronicles212ol6.th.jpg
http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/3875/warlockchronicles213qz5.th.jpg
http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/2901/warlockchronicles214aj3.th.jpg

See, he was experiencing distortions in aspects of reality that are controlled by the other gems. The one with the skeletons is a distortion in time.

So what does all this mean? Well someone with ABSOLUTE control control over reality DOES have control over time. So in a battle between being that have complete control over time and reality, reality wins, because time is simply a facet of reality, that allow for events to proceed in a linear fashion.

Reality manipulation gives the APPERANCE of time manipulation cause peoples minds fold into the new reality and believe it.

Reality is linked to perception, so Reality control does inmply MIND control but not time control. Since the events which lead to the Reality manipulation still exist. They must exist infact or the reality manipulation cannot have occured and a paradox happens which destorys the universe.

Therefore a person CAN go back in time to before the reality altering happened and prevent it from happening.

Originally posted by Ext@nt
Reality manipulation gives the APPERANCE of time manipulation cause peoples minds fold into the new reality and believe it.

Reality is linked to perception, so Reality control does inmply MIND control but not time control. Since the events which lead to the Reality manipulation still exist. They must exist infact or the reality manipulation cannot have occured and a paradox happens which destorys the universe.

Therefore a person CAN go back in time to before the reality altering happened and prevent it from happening.
This may be true in cases of less than absolute control of reality, but absolute control is what I'm talking about. Absolute contol means absolute contole over what is REAL(the root word for reality), which means if you have absolute control over reality, you wouldn't give the appearance of altering the past, the changes would be REAL.

Originally posted by darthgoober
So what does all this mean? Well someone with ABSOLUTE control control over reality DOES have control over time. So in a battle between being that have complete control over time and reality, reality wins, because time is simply a facet of reality, that allow for events to proceed in a linear fashion. This is the point I was trying to make as well Darth....

BTW Nice scans!

Originally posted by Galan777
This is the point I was trying to make as well Darth....

BTW Nice scans!
DAMN IT! I didn't notice I typed control twice.

And thanks.

Originally posted by darthgoober
This may be true in cases of less than absolute control of reality, but absolute control is what I'm talking about. Absolute contol means absolute contole over what is REAL(the root word for reality), which means if you have absolute control over reality, you wouldn't give the appearance of altering the past, the changes would be REAL.

Okay then the universe is wiped out do to the paradox that would occur.

If you kill a persons parents, then that person does not exist anymore.

If you remove the point in time when the alterations to reality took place, then you remove the alterations themselves.

Reality is based on what we percive at THIS moment the universe to be.

I'm going to have the respect thread removed. I don't want to argue temproal mechanics everytime this comes up. That's why I didn't make the respect thread for so long.

This is a fun forum for disscussing comic books and you've dragged Philosophy and Physics into it.

Originally posted by Ext@nt
I'm going to have the respect thread removed. I don't want to argue temproal mechanics everytime this comes up. That's why I didn't make the respect thread for so long. Why? Keep the Extant respect thread open, he is a very cool character, no one is arguing that

It's causing arguements that are giving me reason to drink and drink allot.

In fact I am now going to drink. The thread will only cause more issues like this to come up and I don't know if you've ever taken a class in Philosophy and Physics but there is nothing fun about it. Anyways im gone for a few hours.

Originally posted by Ext@nt
Okay then the universe is wiped out do to the paradox that would occur.

If you kill a persons parents, then that person does not exist anymore.

If you remove the point in time when the alterations to reality took place, then you remove the alterations themselves.

Reality is based on what we percive at THIS moment the universe to be.

I'm going to have the respect thread removed. I don't want to argue temproal mechanics everytime this comes up. That's why I didn't make the respect thread for so long.

This is a fun forum for disscussing comic books and you've dragged Philosophy and Physics into it.
Comic characters very seldom have to deal with the whole paradox thing, because of the multiple timelines the comics themselves have established. In your example, you kill a persons parents, causing that person to cease to exist. This is true for THAT timeline. However in a comic book, when you killed the person by traveling to the past, it would simply create another timeline where that was true. For instance, Rachel Grey is the daughter of Scott and Jean from the future. However Jean is gone and Scott is with Emma, so how is Rachel still around? Because she originates from another timeline where events transpired differently. So yes the time manipulator COULD go back and stop the reality controller from seizing power, but because of the reality controllers ABSOLUTE control over every facet of reality(including time), the time manipulation would simply cause another timeline that wouldn't effect the reality manipulator.

Originally posted by Ext@nt
It's causing arguements that are giving me reason to drink and drink allot.

In fact I am now going to drink. The thread will only cause more issues like this to come up and I don't know if you've ever taken a class in Philosophy and Physics but there is nothing fun about it. Anyways im gone for a few hours.
I'm actually quite fond of philosophy and physics(especially temporal physics), and am quite fond of discussing them whenever possible. You have to know that whenever your dealing with a character like Extant, temporal physics are going to be brought into play. You can't just say he's going to win in a battle like this because he can change time, and expect that to be the end of it. Because all these other factors come into play. There's no reason to get upset about it, it's part of the character. Anyway, I'm not discussing Extant and HOM Wanda, I'm discussing a contest between Reality and Time.

Originally posted by Ext@nt
It's causing arguements that are giving me reason to drink and drink allot.

In fact I am now going to drink. The thread will only cause more issues like this to come up and I don't know if you've ever taken a class in Philosophy and Physics but there is nothing fun about it. Anyways im gone for a few hours. Even so, keep the extant respect thread open, it has the potential to be really good!

Originally posted by Ext@nt
I'm going to have the respect thread removed. I don't want to argue temproal mechanics everytime this comes up. That's why I didn't make the respect thread for so long.

Fine, but I'll open another one.

Originally posted by darthgoober
I'm actually quite fond of philosophy and physics(especially temporal physics), and am quite fond of discussing them whenever possible. You have to know that whenever your dealing with a character like Extant, temporal physics are going to be brought into play. You can't just say he's going to win in a battle like this because he can change time, and expect that to be the end of it. Because all these other factors come into play. There's no reason to get upset about it, it's part of the character. Anyway, I'm not discussing Extant and HOM Wanda, I'm discussing a contest between Reality and Time.

And this is why I kept him out of the fourm until recently and why I regret making that respect thread.

All we can go on to decide this is examples form the comics (Which we should anyways. since this is a comics thread), because our own intellects can't truly grasp the nature of how time and space work. It's all theory to us.

After Crisis happened the universe was remade. But Flash was able to travel back to a point before that happened. It's the chicken and the egg theory, regardless of which came first, you can't have one without the other.

Matter cannot be created nor destoryed, it merely changes form. It has to come from somewhere.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Fine, but I'll open another one.

Please don't

Originally posted by Ext@nt
And this is why I kept him out of the fourm until recently and why I regret making that respect thread.

All we can go on to decide this is examples form the comics (Which we should anyways. since this is a comics thread), because our own intellects can't truly grasp the nature of how time and space work. It's all theory to us.

After Crisis happened the universe was remade. But Flash was able to travel back to a point before that happened. It's the chicken and the egg theory, regardless of which came first, you can't have one without the other.

Matter cannot be created nor destoryed, it merely changes form. It has to come from somewhere.
Ok, now if Flash was able to go back to the DC Universe as it was Pre Crisis, that's simply PIS and bad writing, because the DC Universe was altered at the dawn of creation, so Flash attemping to go back before then, should have destroyed the DC Universe. Just like what kept happening with Krona.

Also, with the whole matter/energy thing, that exist because of the laws of physics, my whole point is that with absolute control over reality, NO laws of physics apply(including temopal physics), because you are able to rewrite them at will.

Originally posted by Ext@nt
Please don't
Look, Extant may be your signature character, but he's not YOUR character. If you don't wan't to get involved in debates about temporal physics, you don't have to. But he's an interesting character, that deserves to be discussed, so shuting down the thread isn't the answer. Just because there's a debate involving Extant, doesn't mean that you have to get involved if it's giving you a headache.

If you want to make one, I won't try to stop you. I don't control the forums or the people on here. I think I will just take your advice and sit out on all future conversations involving him.

Originally posted by Ext@nt
If you want to make one, I won't try to stop you. I don't control the forums or the people on here. I think I will just take your advice and sit out on all future conversations involving him.
Well if that's what you want to do...

There is nothing wrong with arguing for your favorite character, i argue for galactus, lucifer, and ion all the time.....

but you shouldnt take it as a personal slam if someone argues with you about your favorite characters, because it gives you a chance to debate against what your character can do

its a learning experience more then anything

I don't take it as a slam. I take it as a ponteitnal migrane headache.

I'm not mad at any of you. I just thought it was a bad idea to make and I think I was right in that respect.

Originally posted by Ext@nt
I don't take it as a slam. I take it as a ponteitnal migrane headache.

I'm not mad at any of you. I just thought it was a bad idea to make and I think I was right in that respect. It wasnt a bad idea at all, because it gives everyone here more knowledge on that character.... i say keep it going, whats it going to hurt?

yeah the extant respect thread was very interesting, keep it going, id like to see more about him!

Is this basically still "Wanda vs Extant"?

Originally posted by Mr Master
Is this basically still "Wanda vs Extant"? nah, im pretty sure its past that now

Really the thread was about Master Time and Reality Manipulations with equal mastery/Skills, not about Extant and Wanda but somehow it becamed it...

if you control reality, couldnt you just think time to just stop??? nothing ages??? no time even passes??? crimson cosmos for example. do that and somebody that controls time becomes.... useless.

then again, somebody who controls time could prevent anybody from obtaining such powers to control reality. they would simply cease to exist leaving the one that controls time to gain control of reality...


i'm more confused now than when i started

Originally posted by Galan777
something like that would vary with the user......

but think of it this way, time is an aspect of reality, so if one can manipulate reality, then one can manipulate time as well

Reality manipulation is superior.