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Yoda, at the end of TPM, after the death of Darth Maul and Qui-Gon, during Qui-Gon's cremation actually, said that "Two there are, no more, no less" obviously referring to the Sith. How would Yoda have known that, the Sith have been in hiding for 1000 years. He shouldn't have been able to know that there are only two Sith, he should have presumed that there were thousands or something and gotten really worried.

he is refering to the fact that thr is a master and an apperentice..thats all thr is..2..so he was wondering which one was killed by obi-1..the master..or the apperentice..and we kno it was the apperentice

Lucas told him (just kidding)

At first i thought he must have encountered some but then "the sith have been extinct for a millenia"throws that out the window as he's 900ish

Maybe it was common knowledge and the whole thousands of ancient Sith thing (before darth bane)is BS according to Lucas and there ALWAYS were two Sith.

Originally posted by Ogami Itto
Lucas told him (just kidding)

At first i thought he must have encountered some but then "the sith have been extinct for a millenia"throws that out the window as he's 900ish

Maybe it was common knowledge and the whole thousands of ancient Sith thing (before darth bane)is BS according to Lucas and there ALWAYS were two Sith.


That would be pretty funny.

Yeah he (Lucas) could really wreak havoc in the VS forum if he started posting there

Originally posted by General G
Yoda, at the end of TPM, after the death of Darth Maul and Qui-Gon, during Qui-Gon's cremation actually, said that "Two there are, no more, no less" obviously referring to the Sith. How would Yoda have known that, the Sith have been in hiding for 1000 years. He shouldn't have been able to know that there are only two Sith, he should have presumed that there were thousands or something and gotten really worried.

Yoda was stupid and assumed that the Sith would stick to their dogma...but then again, since neither group can see past thier own asses, he was right.

THere's a backstory to the Sith that Yoda is referring to. Sith in groups only destroy each other, so they can only survive in pairs, where one is boss.... until the apprentice kills the master, he becomes the master and takes a new apprentice.

So basically Yoda's phrase is nonsense... it doesn't matter who Maul was... the remaining Sith is the (new) master.

So once again, Yoda proves himself the idiot.

I am afraid so.

And I always thought he was so wise...

Not if you saw ESB before the PT. Whenever I see Puppet Yoda, I think of the Muppet tripping on acid fighting with a trash can over a flashlight.

"Do not question!"

"There is no why!"

"Because the answer have I not"

Originally posted by Alliance
Yoda was stupid and assumed that the Sith would stick to their dogma...but then again, since neither group can see past thier own asses, he was right.

WTF????? Yoda was 100% right when he stated that "always 2 there are"

Why is he stupid???

also yoda's ass was BEHIND him so how could he not see past it ???

Idiot

No, not really.

1. At the time there was only one Sith, as Maul had just been killed.

2. It doesn't matter who Maul was... the remaining Sith is the (new) master. So Mace's comment about "Who did we kill? The Master or the Apprentice?" is stupid and really irrelevant.

I've gone over in this thread why Yoda is idiotic. Please don't make me do it again.

Yoda was right... correct, but he was stating the blatant obvious. Like when it's raining, Yoda might say: raining it is. And then Mace would answers: but is it raining cats and dogs, or dogs and cats?

Can you explain away: "There is no why" and "Do not question"?

Actually, that is good advice in a training situation.

Yeah. Luke spent so much time training, its obvious he needed an extensive amount of "training only" advice.

Luke needed experience and training.

They could have sit down and discuss all the shit happened before, during and after the clone wars. There was just not time for that.

Luke: "Why cant I use my hate to give me focus?"
Yoda: "It is dangerous"
Luke: "Why?"
Yoda: "It will take you to the darkside!"
Luke: "How do you know?"
Yoda: "Many padawans that path have gone. None return have!"
Luke: "Luke who?"
Yoda: "Well. Not many in my lifetime there were. Extinct the sith were you see!"
Luke: "So you knew no-one who defected to the darkside?"
Yoda: "A few I did..."
Luke: "Who?`"
Yoda: " Important it is not..."
Luke: " No, tell me! I wanna know!"
Yoda: "Yrmh. Count Dooku away turned. Darth Tyranus he became."
Luke: "Why?"
Yoda: " *sigh* When master Qui Gon died. Soon after he left. Lost his faith for the Republic we thougt. A politician he became."
Luke: "Who was Qui Gon."
Yoda: "Obi Wans master he was."
Luke: "You mean he trained him? Obi Wan told me You trained him!"
Yoda: "Yes yes. All of them I trained. When young they were. Padawans have their own master."
Luke: "So who was Qui Gons master?"
Yoda:" Count Dooku it was..."
Luke: "And his...?"
Yoda:" I was..."
Luke: "So. the Only jedi to turn to the darkside during your 900 year life was the ****ing one that you trained?!?!"
Yoda: "No! Not only one! *heavy sigh* Many more there were."
Luke: "Like?"
Yoda: " Anakin Skywalker."
Luke: "Who was he?"
Yoda: "He was Obi Wans apprentice."
Luke: "Why did he turn?"
Yoda: "He was seduced by his friend. Suppreme chancellor Palpatine"
Luke: "Who was Palpatine?"
Yoda: "He was the leader of the senate. And he is the evil Emperor!"
Luke: "So. Why didnt you kill him?"
Yoda: " Tried I did but little success I had."
Luke: "What about this Anakin then? What happened to him?"
Yoda: "Hi fought his master on Mustafar."
Luke: "Where is Mustafar?"
Yoda: " A lavaplanet it is."
Luke: " So did Obiwan kill him?"
Yoda: "No! Wounded only. Now he is half-machine!"
Luke: "right... I wonder what his family thinks about it."
Yoda: "All his family is dead..."
Luke: "What about his father?"
yoda: "There was none."
Luke: "How is that possible???"
Yoda: "Know that I do not."
Luke: "How did he born then?"
Yoda: "Midichloridians did the trick. Yes. Midichloridians!"
Luke: "What are those?"
Yoda: "Little things in our blood they are. Allow us to communicate with the force!"
Luke: "Do I have them?!"
Yoda: "We all do."
Luke: "Did this Anakin have them?"
Yoda:" Yes he did."
Luke:" What was his last name?"
Yoda:" Yrmgh.. Not important is that,"
Luke:" NO! Tell me!"
Yoda: " A skywalker he was"
Luke:" WOW! What a coincidence!"
Yoda: " yes. yes. But now we must eat."
Luke: "No wait. How exactly did Palpatine lie to Anakin?"
Yoda:" Offered his wife a chance to live."
Luke: "Who was she?"
Yoda: "Padme Amidala she was. A skywalker later".
Luke: " Did they have children."
Yoda: " Yes. Twins they did have..."
Luke: "What happened to those?"
Yoda: "Away they were taken. After Anakin defeated was."
Luke: "where???"
Yoda:" The boy to Tatooine sent was. The girl on Alderaan."
Luke: "WOW! This is creepy."
Luke: "Where was the boy placed."
Yoda: "To his uncle we sent him. A farmer was he. To hide from his father!"
Luke: "Wow. I am a son of Darth Vader?!"
Yoda: "****. Slipped that I did..."
Luke: "No! Tell me more about the darkside..."
Yoda. "The darkside is about... blah blah"



So I think Yoda did the right thing.

"No! No! There is no why!"

That way everyone is happy.

For typing that out.

BUT IGNORANCE! Jedi are supressors of free knowledge. They are a totalitarian system bent entirely on preserving their power.

And only Queeq has made an attempt at explaining...

Yoda's line is not ignorant. He's merely stating that, normally, there are two Sith. They just killed one, so by stating that there are normally two, there has to be one left.

Wondering if they have killed the Master or the Apprentice matters in the sense that they could have just killed the mastermind of everything and the most formidable the Dark Side has to offer...or they could have killed the dinky pawn.

In this case, they killed the dinky pawn.

Tada!

Anyways, without dipping into EU too much, Darth Bane established the Rule of Two. Then, at some point between then and TPM, the Rule of Two was exposed and the Jedi thought they wiped it out. It would have had to have been shortly after Bane, or it wouldn't have been 1000 years since the Sith's extinction...

And that's that.

Master/Dinky Pawn is a poor system.

If the pawn apprentice was so useless, he wouldn't be sent out in the first place on an rather important mission. Hence, either one is a threat to the Jedi totalitarianism.

Maul also happens to be one of the best designed characters, despite your slander as "dinky pawn" I bet Maul had a huge wang.

This is a pretty silly debate.

First, as stated, the reason Yoda knows is because the Sith were always like that (or at least had been for a very long time before their extinction), and it is the EU that is in error for suggesting otherwise. Afraid it's not true about Bane, Rex, because GL has stated that the Sith were like that for thousands of years, and the EU makes out Bane to be the very last Sith Lord before the extinction a thousand years ago. It cannot be possible that the system was exposed since the Sith were throught to be extinct else... they wouldn't have been thought to be extinct any more! No, when the Jedi had been fighting the Sith all that time ago, that is how it had been. They were used to it and it was presumably recorded.

Secondly, Yoda and Mace don't ask which one is still alive, they ask which one was killed. Past tense, so not wrong at all. Which is quite an important question, as it happens, because as was evident they were in a whole lot more trouble if they only killed the Apprentice.

And yes, the Rule of Two DOES leave the Sith vulnerable, Alliance, but it is not stupid because it is the only rule that works. If that makes the Sith themselves stupid... well then, yes. 'Evil is stupid' is kinda a subtext of the whole deal.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
This is a pretty silly debate.

First, as stated, the reason Yoda knows is because the Sith were always like that (or at least had been for a very long time before their extinction), and it is the EU that is in error for suggesting otherwise. Afraid it's not true about Bane, Rex, because GL has stated that the Sith were like that for thousands of years, and the EU makes out Bane to be the very last Sith Lord before the extinction a thousand years ago. It cannot be possible that the system was exposed since the Sith were throught to be extinct else... they wouldn't have been thought to be extinct any more! No, when the Jedi had been fighting the Sith all that time ago, that is how it had been. They were used to it and it was presumably recorded.

Secondly, Yoda and Mace don't ask which one is still alive, they ask which one was killed. Past tense, so not wrong at all. Which is quite an important question, as it happens, because as was evident they were in a whole lot more trouble if they only killed the Apprentice.

And yes, the Rule of Two DOES leave the Sith vulnerable, Alliance, but it is not stupid because it is the only rule that works. If that makes the Sith themselves stupid... well then, yes. 'Evil is stupid' is kinda a subtext of the whole deal.
Excellent points!

Yoda was not stupid and he knew that Sith were actually following the rule of 2, since a long time as he himself was over 800 years old. That is why he and Mace were curious to know that which one of the two got killed.

Anyways! I have mentioned this before that Sith actually logically followed the rule of 2 even before Bane. Because their used to be a single "Dark Lord of the Sith" and he/she would adopt a single "Apprentice" as this concept was even demonstrated in KOTOR I. The others were just followers.

This is why it was indicated in Path of Destruction Novel, that Bane himself was not the actual "inventor" of this idea but he actually made it permanent by fully implementing it. So he gets the credit.

But this rule was not compulsory and not all Sith followed this rule, as demonstrated by "Darth Traya" but she suffered bad consequenes for not adopting it.

And Bane made this rule permanent because followers would bring attention and put Sith Lords in to trouble. So disguise was the best choice and for this, only two Sith would continue the legacy of Dark Side without any followers.

And now some people are saying that even George Lucas said that the Sith followed the rule of 2 for thousands of years.

My points might be wrong though!

AAAAARGHH... EU ALERT!!!!

No Bane.

All in all, those lines between Yoda and Mace sound profound, but they don't mean anything. They don't know who they killed, if it was the Master they don't know how smart or advanced the 'dinky pawn' was. It basically comes down to this: we need to kill the other sith before he gets another apprentice and they can go at full strength again. THAT would have shown what's at stake, not who was killed.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
And yes, the Rule of Two DOES leave the Sith vulnerable, Alliance, but it is not stupid because it is the only rule that works. If that makes the Sith themselves stupid... well then, yes. 'Evil is stupid' is kinda a subtext of the whole deal.

I don't ever recall adressing that.

Ush did.

Ah, very true, Ush. I've been dinking around the EU forums too long...

And Alliance, you called it a poor system.

And I wasn't slandering Maul, don't put words in my mouth! My point was that if they had killed the Apprentice, the Master would still be there to cause trouble, which is what happened. If they had killed the Master, then the Apprentice would have to come up with all new plans, and might not even have finished his training yet. Less of a threat.

Not what Mace and Yoda talk about, though. That's more just me.

But how much did Maul know?

probably not a whole lot. He was more of a physical beast rather than a sharp witted co-conspirator. Thats probably why he moved on to Dooku next cause he needed someone with more intelligence to help unfold the master plan. Maul might have known the ultimate goal, but the means of getting there.

Well, how would you know? We don't know much about Maul, he was at least mature and well developed enough in the Jedi arts for Sidious to make the return of the Sith known. Can't do that with just a mindless thug, that'd be stupid.

you're right, but in general when you have someone whose known as the muscle, then they're typically not known for their brain power. Sidious had to keep him on a short leash as to not alert the Jedi to the presence. And just because you're well trained in the Jedi arts, doesn't mean you can successfully carry out a master plan to eradicate an entire order of Jedi.

That means Anakin/Vader is just the muscle... I find that hard to believe. Yes, one has to be the lesser, but that doesn't mean he is stupid that he can't continue...

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Excellent points!

Yoda was not stupid and he knew that Sith were actually following the rule of 2, since a long time as he himself was over 800 years old. That is why he and Mace were curious to know that which one of the two got killed.

Anyways! I have mentioned this before that Sith actually logically followed the rule of 2 even before Bane. Because their used to be a single "Dark Lord of the Sith" and he/she would adopt a single "Apprentice" as this concept was even demonstrated in KOTOR I. The others were just followers.

This is why it was indicated in Path of Destruction Novel, that Bane himself was not the actual "inventor" of this idea but he actually made it permanent by fully implementing it. So he gets the credit.

But this rule was not compulsory and not all Sith followed this rule, as demonstrated by "Darth Traya" but she suffered bad consequenes for not adopting it.

And Bane made this rule permanent because followers would bring attention and put Sith Lords in to trouble. So disguise was the best choice and for this, only two Sith would continue the legacy of Dark Side without any followers.

And now some people are saying that even George Lucas said that the Sith followed the rule of 2 for thousands of years.

My points might be wrong though!

ah i see you have been playing kotor 2 and yoda isnt 800 in ep 1 hes like umm lets see carry the 1....600-750 or less i dunno im probably wrong

no it doesn't. Anakin is on another level from Maul. If maul was really that great and smart, he'd still be around. You think Anakin would let someone just hang there and get the chance to jump up and kill him? No, he force push or chop their hands off so they'd fall.

Why give your apprentice all the info and details when there's alot they can do to screw you over take your place and get their own apprentice? By the time Vader was "Vader", there were none left to oppose them and Sidious had nothing to fear a far as Vader wanting his title.

Originally posted by aldisyoyo
ah i see you have been playing kotor 2 and yoda isnt 800 in ep 1 hes like umm lets see carry the 1....600-750 or less i dunno im probably wrong Yoda's about 870 in Episode I.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
no it doesn't. Anakin is on another level from Maul. If maul was really that great and smart, he'd still be around. You think Anakin would let someone just hang there and get the chance to jump up and kill him? No, he force push or chop their hands off so they'd fall.

Why give your apprentice all the info and details when there's alot they can do to screw you over take your place and get their own apprentice? By the time Vader was "Vader", there were none left to oppose them and Sidious had nothing to fear a far as Vader wanting his title.

How do you know Vader is soooo much different. VAder would have been killed by OB1, just like Maul. If it wasn't for Ob1's love and pity, Anakin WOULD have been killed. The fact that he's alive was not Anakin's credit.

And yes, of course, the apprentice doesn't get all the info of the master, but he must still be well trained in the JEdi arts and the arts of the Dark Side... what use is he. It shows the weakness of the Sith construction: you need two, but the lesser will always be wanting to be the master.

Point is: we know too little about Maul to judge whether he was really MUCh less than Anakin. He was less since Anakin was the greatest, but just how much, that is up for debate I think. After all, he did kill QGJ.