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a guy who manipulates matter on a planetary scale against a guy who can manipulate reality on a planetary scale. no difference in imagination or creativity.... who wins?

Originally posted by air beardey
a guy who manipulates matter on a planetary scale against a guy who can manipulate reality on a planetary scale. no difference in imagination or creativity.... who wins?
Reality wins. He controls the laws of physics, even time. IT's like putting HOM Scarlet Witch against the Molecule man. She wins everytime.

so basically what you are asking is Proteus vs Silver Surfer???

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Reality wins. He controls the laws of physics, even time. IT's like putting HOM Scarlet Witch against the Molecule man. She wins everytime.

Actually I'd call it a draw... few people have grasped the power of the reality gem. Even scarlet witch had no idea what she was doing with it.

Thanos himself said that few could grasp the limits of its power.

That said... Scarlett witch HOM... is too mentally unstable to handle a multiversal such as molecule man. Powerwise I'd say about equal, maybe giving a little to SW... but in ability to use the power... i'd give it to molecule man.

nvrbeenwithagirl is back?!

Bigbran! Get ready for more profiling.

Originally posted by Soljer
nvrbeenwithagirl is back?!

Bigbran! Get ready for more profiling.

Get bent. Go drown. Slide down a slide of razors. Chew bricks. Inhale bees, and then kiss a frozen pole with your tongue.

Originally posted by air beardey
a guy who manipulates matter on a planetary scale against a guy who can manipulate reality on a planetary scale. no difference in imagination or creativity.... who wins? The Reality Manipulator could make the Matter manipulator whatever he wanted, he could also make it so the Matter manipulator never existed

IMO reality manipulation takes this

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Get bent. Go drown. Slide down a slide of razors. Chew bricks. Inhale bees, and then kiss a frozen pole with your tongue.


Awww, I didn't know you cared.

It'll be fun around the forums, till you get too shamed to show your face again.

Originally posted by Soljer
Awww, I didn't know you cared.

It'll be fun around the forums, till you get too shamed to show your face again.
Shamed to show my face?!!!. Shows what you know. I started my 2nd job, training for a body building contest, and started my master's program, that is why I haven't been on. And I'll be leaving shortly enough. I see that your conversion to Master Heads is complete. There is no need to argue against an entire board of the marvel u is an omniverse and bigger so nah heads. Nice talking to you, i'm gone for another 6 months.

reality manipulater imagines earth is lifeless xcept for No.1. Reality manipulator ftw.

enough bitching.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
i'm gone for another 6 months. Yes! There is a God!

reality > matter.

but really depends on level of reality vs level of matter M.

But there are very few reality manipulators who are extremly powerful.

on the other hand there are lots of people able to Matter Manipulate like SS.

Originally posted by Soljer
Awww, I didn't know you cared.

It'll be fun around the forums, till you get too shamed to show your face again. Don need to be so mean all the time...everyone should geta 2nd chance...

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Reality wins. He controls the laws of physics, even time. IT's like putting HOM Scarlet Witch against the Molecule man. She wins everytime.

are you kidding?

post retcon Molecule Man is a Cosmic Cube level being. His definition of of reality manipulation makes what the Scarlet Witch does look like baking cookies.

pre retcon Molecule Man was more powerful than the LT, possibly if the Beyonder could be taken at his word more powerful than TOAA.

----------------------------------

the reality manipulator wins hands down btw

Originally posted by thtadthtshldntb
pre retcon Molecule Man was more powerful than the LT. yes
Originally posted by thtadthtshldntb
possibly if the Beyonder could be taken at his word more powerful than TOAA. Beyonder never said MM was more powerful then TOAA, in fact, Beyonder never even mentioned TOAA.

Originally posted by Galan777
Beyonder never said MM was more powerful then TOAA, in fact, Beyonder never even mentioned TOAA.
Not even once.

MM, by the way, was able to warp more then matter. He could warp energy, spacetime, all sorts of things.

The pre retcon Beyonder stated that the Molecule Man was the most powerful being other after himself in"this" reality.

Does TOAA exist in some other reality besides the Marvel Omniverse and the pre retcon Beyonder verse?

reality manipulator would have an easier time, but matter manipulation would require quite a bit more imagination to acheieve the same effect. so providing that the reality controller isnt bat shit insane as they usually are, id go with that one as well

Originally posted by Galan777
Yes! There is a God!



Indeed, I thought similarly.

The Mater Manipulaters could just turn a reality warper into a statue or piece of cheese. I mean in reality both can be quite strong.

One can make it so you never existed while the other can change the fundamental fabric space.

Although I would say that Reality Wapers have more range and scope with their powers

Reality Manipulators can make left mean right and up mean down. They can make death meaningless and wipe out entire races of beings. Matter Manipulators change things from one state to another. They need something there to use. A reality Manipulator can go into the void of nothing and create. Reality wins hands down.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Reality Manipulators can make left mean right and up mean down. They can make death meaningless and wipe out entire races of beings. Matter Manipulators change things from one state to another. They need something there to use. A reality Manipulator can go into the void of nothing and create. Reality wins hands down.

As ignorant as ever.

You're using an abstract-level reality manipulator, and a child-level matter manipulator.

Who is to say the matter manipulator just makes the reality manipulator not exist? .

At high enough power levels, reality manipulation IS matter manipulation, and vice versa.

ther isnt a more classic example of PR. Beyonder(Reality) going insane and Owen Recce(Matter) calming him down and fixing the damage he has wrought...so at those lvls its all the same thing

Originally posted by Soljer
As ignorant as ever.

You're using an abstract-level reality manipulator, and a child-level matter manipulator.

Who is to say the matter manipulator just makes the reality manipulator not exist? .

At high enough power levels, reality manipulation IS matter manipulation, and vice versa.

And you seek to put me down with no real merit. Scarlet witch at her lowest lvl of power could still beat silver surfer, a high lvl matter maninpulator. So reality beats matter any day. hence why there is a reality gem and not a matter gem. matter manipulation is part of reality but reality manip is not part of matter manip.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
And you seek to put me down with no real merit. Scarlet witch at her lowest lvl of power could still beat silver surfer, a high lvl matter maninpulator. So reality beats matter any day. hence why there is a reality gem and not a matter gem. matter manipulation is part of reality but reality manip is not part of matter manip.

So reality is not composed of matter, hm? Good to know.

And the Silver Surfer is hardly a matter manipulator of high enough level to be compared to people who warp the entire 616 universe.

Originally posted by Soljer
So reality is not composed of matter, hm? Good to know.

And the Silver Surfer is hardly a matter manipulator of high enough level to be compared to people who warp the entire 616 universe.

Um did you read the part where I said Scarlet witch at her LOWEST lvl could still beat surfer?

And Reality is so much more than matter. Reality has abstract meanings. A person with Reality Manip can make gravity and physics change meaning. They can time travel and more. These things, I don't see pure matter manipulators doing.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Um did you read the part where I said Scarlet witch at her LOWEST lvl could still beat surfer?

And Reality is so much more than matter. Reality has abstract meanings. A person with Reality Manip can make gravity and physics change meaning. They can time travel and more. These things, I don't see pure matter manipulators doing.

A matter manipulator of high enough level can change the composition of fundamental particles, thus changing physics.

Go figure.

Reality Manipulator of course turns Matter Man to dust easier.

this is like mad jim jaspers vs the fury mjj could manipulate reality yet all teh fury could do was adapt to things and he managed to kill mjj. a matter manipulator could manipulate the enviroment around them so cancel out the reality manipulatior

Originally posted by manjaro
ther isnt a more classic example of PR. Beyonder(Reality) going insane and Owen Recce(Matter) calming him down and fixing the damage he has wrought...so at those lvls its all the same thing

I really don't think it could be stated better.

Preretcon Molecule man... (obviously a matter manipulator) was stated as possibly the most powerful person in our multiverse I mean jesus. with a though the guy repairs shit through the multiverse.

I still say this is a stalemate.
The too guys don't fight each other, they plot how to make their planetary powers, multiversal.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Matter Manipulators change things from one state to another. They need something there to use. A reality Manipulator can go into the void of nothing and create. Reality wins hands down.

Reality nor Matter manipulators can create from nothing.

That's why they are called manipulators, because they use what they can.


Even my man MM, Pre or otherwise, could not create from nothing, but he was the most powerful being after Beyonder because he could manipulate anything, no matter the scale.

For my self, i think reality manipulation is a higher form/level of matter manipulation, the highest.. Depending on whose fighting some matter manipulator Ie. Silver Surfer can fight off some level of reality manipulation...

Manipulators need a base to work off.

Hence the manipulator title.

And at the highest levels, they're indistinguishable from one another.

Matter goes beyond the physical into the spiritual and etc.

If someone can manipulate to that degree, then they're effectively manipulating reality.

I've heard it said that Galactus would lose to a reality warper. How is that so, when he's one himself??

Changing someones soul, or personality, is as intimate as you go in changing reality.

Changing the way people act/see the world/existence is changing reality at its most basic levels.

They're the same thing, if you wanna go deep enough.

Reality wins hands down.

Matter needs some sort of reality to exist. Reality does not need matter to exist.

tell that to jim jaspers

Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
Reality wins hands down.

Matter needs some sort of reality to exist. Reality does not need matter to exist.

I basically said this earlier and people just seemed to rip me to shreds acting as if I wasn't right and reality is much stronger than matter. I even said that Matter is a part of reality, but reality is beyond simple matter.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
I basically said this earlier and people just seemed to rip me to shreds acting as if I wasn't right and reality is much stronger than matter. I even said that Matter is a part of reality, but reality is beyond simple matter. That is because it isn't true.

Both require something to perform the tasks because both are manipulators meaning they need something in order to manipulate.

If you to talk about reality creators then basically there is only one in each Comic Company that being the God of whatever company it is although they cxould also be Matter creators to since everything is made up of Matter so it can go either way you want.

Molecule man manipulated more then matter! (Or M.M.M.M.M. for short)

That's my new cry to battle!

Originally posted by King Kandy
Molecule man manipulated more then matter! such as?

Because I don't really remember him manipulating reality to any certain degree.

Originally posted by Galan777
such as?

Because I don't really remember him manipulating reality to any certain degree.
Space warps. Time changing. Dimesionional transport.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Space warps.Ok, I guess you could consider a portal to the Beyond realm a space warp, and in turn reality manipulation as well.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Time changing. When?

Originally posted by King Kandy
Dimesionional transport. Ok, I guess you could consider a portal to the Beyond realm a Dimensional transport, and in turn reality manipulation as well.

When he was lecturing Beyonder, he traveled through time repeatedly, if I remember.

Reality can manipulate things like what was, what is to come, what the very meaning of something is. Matter manipulation simply cannot do that. Reality manipulation can alter fate and play with destiny. Matter manipulation cannot. Reality wins hands down.

Originally posted by King Kandy
When he was lecturing Beyonder, he traveled through time repeatedly, if I remember. teleportation isn't really reality manipulation.

And I don't think he traveled through time when he did this

Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
Reality wins hands down.

Matter needs some sort of reality to exist. Reality does not need matter to exist.

But reality is made up of matter.

Reality is matter.

Originally posted by UniOmni
But reality is made up of matter.

Reality is matter.

Reality is more than matter. Reality is a concept. It is what makes things the way they are. Gravity is gravity becuz of reality. The sun produces light becuz of reality. Energy is energy becuz of reality. Reality can even beat Death. the very concept of death can be erased by a high tier reality manipulator. Matter manips can't do it. Even the molecule man couldn't bring death back after the beyonder, a high thier reality manip killed her. Reality for the win.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Reality is more than matter. Reality is a concept. It is what makes things the way they are. Gravity is gravity becuz of reality. The sun produces light becuz of reality. Energy is energy becuz of reality. Reality can even beat Death. the very concept of death can be erased by a high tier reality manipulator. Matter manips can't do it. Even the molecule man couldn't bring death back after the beyonder, a high thier reality manip killed her. Reality for the win. Actually all the stuff you just talked about do what they do because of how matter interacts with eachother.

Originally posted by Newjak
Actually all the stuff you just talked about do what they do because of how matter interacts with eachother.

Actually no. Reality is beyond an interaction. it is the reason for the interaction in the first place. Reality is the reason for matter. Not vice versa. Someone with enough reality altering powers can shift time lines. A matter manipulator cannot do that. Reality is the winner in this thread.

With reality manipulation, you can rearrange time, space, and matter in any way you see fit...... whatever you can think of doing can be accomplished.

matter manipulation would allow you to do nearly the same things, but only in the here and now, and to a much lesser degree.

Really?

Cuz all Superman 1Million did, was harden time into physical matter, and punched through it back to his century.

He jumped timelines, all by using matter manipulation.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Actually no. Reality is beyond an interaction. it is the reason for the interaction in the first place. Reality is the reason for matter. Not vice versa. Someone with enough reality altering powers can shift time lines. A matter manipulator cannot do that. Reality is the winner in this thread. I'm not gonna lie I already said Reality Manipulators have more scope then Matter Manips do if only because they can effect things in the time line but as for effecting things a Matter Manip can be just as strong as Reality Manip.

A Matter Manip could change teh entire planet into something else along with everyone on it just like a reality Manip could as well.

Now before you say but the reality Manip could just make it so the the Matter Manip guy never existed the Matter Manip guy could change it so the Reality Manip doesn't exist just asa easily.

Originally posted by UniOmni
Really?

Cuz all Superman 1Million did, was harden time into physical matter, and punched through it back to his century.

He jumped timelines, all by using matter manipulation. Breaking a wall of reality by physical means hardly makes you a reality/matter manipulator. If it does, its to a VERY low degree.

The point is that Reality Manipulation can change actual meanings. Like when The beyonder made Death meaningless. No amount of matter manip can do that. A reality manip can make it so that East actually means west and south means north. Matter manip cannot do that. A reality manip can alter things that have no substance like how people think and remember. A matter manip can't do that. They would have to change the entire person into someone else. a reality manip can alter everyone's memory in the world like scarlet witch did. or like in avengers 1-4. Take a look at Mr. Mxypl. He is a top tier reality manip. He can do things that no matter manip can do and he can do every thing that they can do. Scarlet witch was able to remake the universe over and over. The most I've seen a matter manip do is repair the universes. REPAIR. Not remake. Reality wins.

Yup, Anybody who manipulate realities to those degrees trumps anyone who just manipulate matter inside a reality.. I think both are desame cept the other one is on a much higher degree...

With OUT REALITY, a Reality manipulator can NOT create Reality from nothing.

With OUT MATTER, a Matter manipulator can NOT create Matter from nothing.


No one should be mentioning Pre-retcon Beyonder, because he was neither of these,

Beyonder was a "god" and could do anything, with or without Reality or Matter.

Only a handful of beings can claim such a status, to be able to CREATE from NOTHING.

Originally posted by Mr Master
With OUT REALITY, a Reality manipulator can NOT create Reality from nothing.

With OUT MATTER, a Matter manipulator can NOT create Matter from nothing.


No one should be mentioning Pre-retcon Beyonder, because he was neither of these,

Beyonder was a "god" and could do anything, with or without Reality or Matter.

Only a handful of beings can claim such a status, to be able to CREATE from NOTHING.

And exactly who and what gives you the authority to tell us who we should and shouldn't mention in a forum? As I remember correctly, Parallax and Scarlet Witch wiped out Entire universes as in NOthing and then remade them. They didn't manipulate something already there. They cleaned the slate into oblivion and then remade them. This would imply that reality manipulators DO NOT NEED REALITY TO MANIPULATE.

again tell that to jim jaspers.......you'll be hard pressed to find a higher tier reality warper, yet he was battling the Fury and warping the shit out of reality...then the fury transported him to a void where no matter existed and it rendered him powerless...the fury subsquently blew his brains out.

and if anyone is still confused as to how boss matter manipulators can be i advise to revisit the authority and check out The Doctor in action. he is on such a high lievel that it is impossible to distimguish whether he's warping reality or matter..like for example turning an alien fleet into roses, holding Italy in place, like literally and let the rest of the world turn so that that piece of land was left without atmospheric protection which resulted in an enitre alien fleet was flash frizen by the vacuum of space, and the straglers were washedaway by the ocean...or the way he would transport hundreds of ppl at a time to other dimensions to get them out of harm's way

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
And exactly who and what gives you the authority to tell us who we should and shouldn't mention in a forum?

Mr Master


Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
As I remember correctly, Parallax and Scarlet Witch wiped out Entire universes as in NOthing and then remade them. They didn't manipulate something already there. They cleaned the slate into oblivion and then remade them. This would imply that reality manipulators DO NOT NEED REALITY TO MANIPULATE.

I don't know about Parallax, not my specialty, but you remember INCORRECTLY in the Witch's case.

HOM Wanda NEVER erased even ONE Universe,

Wanda destroyed and REMADE the same Universe she destroyed, with the same matter that was left over from the destruction.

Originally posted by manjaro
again tell that to jim jaspers.......you'll be hard pressed to find a higher tier reality warper, yet he was battling the Fury and warping the shit out of reality...then the fury transported him to a void where no matter existed and it rendered him powerless...the fury subsquently blew his brains out.





Originally posted by manjaro
and if anyone is still confused as to how boss matter manipulators can be i advise to revisit the authority and check out The Doctor in action. he is on such a high lievel that it is impossible to distimguish whether he's warping reality or matter..like for example turning an alien fleet into roses, holding Italy in place, like literally and let the rest of the world turn so that that piece of land was left without atmospheric protection which resulted in an enitre alien fleet was flash frizen by the vacuum of space, and the straglers were washedaway by the ocean...or the way he would transport hundreds of ppl at a time to other dimensions to get them out of harm's way

Nice heads up Manja,

I have the Authority collection and I haven't delved into yet, sounds interesting.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Mr Master


He's been officially WHIPPED ! ~

whip





Originally posted by Mr Master
I don't know about Parallax, not my specialty, but you remember INCORRECTLY in the Witch's case.

HOM Wanda NEVER erased even ONE Universe,

Wanda destroyed and REMADE the same Universe she destroyed, with the same matter that was left over from the destruction.



I think he fails to see the distinction. Destroying a universe is not the same as erasing a universe.

Nvrbeenwithagirl.....look at it this way. If you burn someone alive, you destroy thier body, but you do not erase it.

Their remnants and remains exist in another form....corrupted from its original. If you are a matter manipulator you can easily rebuild them to thier original form.

Same with a universe. If you wreck a universe to a state of nonfunctionality, and then use your reality warping powers to reshape it, you are not "creating from nothing"


A standard reality warper cannot "create" realities, only warp currently existing realities.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
He's been officially WHIPPED ! ~

whip









I think he fails to see the distinction. Destroying a universe is not the same as erasing a universe.

Nvrbeenwithagirl.....look at it this way. If you burn someone alive, you destroy thier body, but you do not erase it.

Their remnants and remains exist in another form....corrupted from its original. If you are a matter manipulator you can easily rebuild them to thier original form.

Same with a universe. If you wreck a universe to a state of nonfunctionality, and then use your reality warping powers to reshape it, you are not "creating from nothing"


A standard reality warper cannot "create" realities, only warp currently existing realities.

Better yet take a picture.

You can use photo manipulation software to screw with it , but if you have enough skill you can shape it back to what it originally was. Yet you cannot do that if you simply erase the picture.

All else being equal, reality > matter.

A matter manipulator (MM) influences reality in the conventional sense, working with the elementary particles and forces of matter and energy.

A reality manipulator (RM) influences the quantum fields out of which these elementary forces and particles arise; indeed, an RM can influence the wavefunctions of whole events; his/her relationship with reality is much more intimate than reality's is with an MM.

MM is a subset of RM.

Originally posted by Mindship
All else being equal, reality > matter.

A matter manipulator (MM) influences reality in the conventional sense, working with the elementary particles and forces of matter and energy.

A reality manipulator (RM) influences the quantum fields out of which these elementary forces and particles arise; indeed, an RM can influence the wavefunctions of whole events; his/her relationship with reality is much more intimate than reality's is with an MM.

MM is a subset of RM.

Who is to say that a skilled enough matter manipulator couldn't affect quantum particles? Or change the wave equations of electrons? Or swap fundamental charges? With enough skill, Matter manipulation IS reality manipulation, and vice versa.

Period.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I think he fails to see the distinction. Destroying a universe is not the same as erasing a universe.

Nvrbeenwithagirl.....look at it this way. If you burn someone alive, you destroy thier body, but you do not erase it.

Their remnants and remains exist in another form....corrupted from its original. If you are a matter manipulator you can easily rebuild them to thier original form.

Same with a universe. If you wreck a universe to a state of nonfunctionality, and then use your reality warping powers to reshape it, you are not "creating from nothing"


A standard reality warper cannot "create" realities, only warp currently existing realities.

The manisfestation of wisdom...


Eloquently put LU.

Originally posted by Mindship
All else being equal, reality > matter.

A matter manipulator (MM) influences reality in the conventional sense, working with the elementary particles and forces of matter and energy.

A reality manipulator (RM) influences the quantum fields out of which these elementary forces and particles arise; indeed, an RM can influence the wavefunctions of whole events; his/her relationship with reality is much more intimate than reality's is with an MM.

MM is a subset of RM.

I like the way this reads,

but I have to agree with Soljer's definition some what, I'll give you my simple reason.


Jamie Braddock is a matter manipulator, but he can Warp on the Quantum String level, this gave him the ability to Alter the White Hot Room (so called Heart of the Phoenix)

Now the White Hot Room is detached from Reality (beyond Space and Time) so I think it comes down to what extent the manipulator can act.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I like the way this reads,

but I have to agree with Soljer's definition some what, I'll give you my simple reason.


Jamie Braddock is a matter manipulator, but he can Warp on the Quantum String level, this gave him the ability to Alter the White Hot Room (so called Heart of the Phoenix)

Now the White Hot Room is detached from Reality (beyond Space and Time) so I think it comes down to what extent the manipulator can act.
Damn, so much stuff I don't know about this highly exaggerated cosmic scene of Marvel. My friend has quite a bunch of issues of cosmic scale stuff like that, but he sucks at recommending anything. I'd like to read about the White Hot Room, are those issues any good?

Originally posted by Tshern
Damn, so much stuff I don't know about this highly exaggerated cosmic scene of Marvel. My friend has quite a bunch of issues of cosmic scale stuff like that, but he sucks at recommending anything. I'd like to read about the White Hot Room, are those issues any good?

Here you go friend:


Jamie Braddock Warped the White Hot Room ("Heart of the Phoenix" like child's play.


This is the WHR

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/3728/wyz2.th.jpg

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/7650/m2jo5.th.jpg


Jamie teleported Rachel and Betsy to the Room, then after a short while he begins to Morph the White Hot Room

http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/2512/j1ma3.th.jpg


He appears flying by an image of Captain Britain

http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/3619/j2hw6.th.jpg


Jamie Braddock with total control of the WHR ("Heart of the Phoenix"
http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/4193/j3cw1.th.jpg

Jamie Warps it into a Crystal like object.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Here you go friend:
Cheers! I knew you could be trusted.

Originally posted by Soljer
Who is to say that a skilled enough matter manipulator couldn't affect quantum particles? Or change the wave equations of electrons? Or swap fundamental charges? With enough skill, Matter manipulation IS reality manipulation, and vice versa.

Period.

Since these are fictional abilities, one can say anything. I was just giving my spin on it. Obviously there is a distinction. And they can be very similar. That's why I said, All else being equal, and MM is a subset of RM.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Reality nor Matter manipulators can create from nothing.

That's why they are called manipulators, because they use what they can.


Even my man MM, Pre or otherwise, could not create from nothing, but he was the most powerful being after Beyonder because he could manipulate anything, no matter the scale.
I dont know about that man..
Didnt Franklin create a pocket Universe out of nothing..
And this girl Ellie;
http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/3333/rrv8.th.jpg
supposedly can make any of her dream real and can also traverse any realities.. Of course the only thing shes done on panel was recreate Earth... Will it back to exist after being destroyed...

Originally posted by Soljer
Who is to say that a skilled enough matter manipulator couldn't affect quantum particles? Or change the wave equations of electrons? Or swap fundamental charges? With enough skill, Matter manipulation IS reality manipulation, and vice versa.

Period.

Matter is a by product of reality.

You can have spiritual realms or voids with no matter in them whatsoever.

There would be no matter to manipulate whatsoever.

A reality manipulator can freeze or rewind "time" on the spot. Time is not matter.

To say matter manipulation can compete with what is basically it's more advanced sibling is ridiculous.

Reality manipulation encompasses manipulation of energy, time and matter. So I'd agree, assuming both people are equally skilled, it trumps matter manipulation.

Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
Matter is a by product of reality.

You can have spiritual realms or voids with no matter in them whatsoever.

There would be no matter to manipulate whatsoever.

A reality manipulator can freeze or rewind "time" on the spot. Time is not matter.

To say matter manipulation can compete with what is basically it's more advanced sibling is ridiculous.

That coin spins both ways though,

as you correctly pointed out, a realm with no matter renders a matter manipulator impotent,

but a realm without Time renders a reality manipulator useless aswell.


And what is Time?

a part of Reality,

and what is Reality?

Time and Space.

Incorrect. Reality is energy and that is it.

Time and space are dimensions by which we MEASURE change in energy, but for example in a singularity there is no time or space but there is still energy.

Matter is simply a small form of energy which exists under particular and highly tenuous circumstances.

A reality manipulator is an energy manipulator at the most basic levels. A matter manipulator is just dipping his toe into the kiddie pool.

Originally posted by Mr Master
That coin spins both ways though,

as you correctly pointed out, a realm with no matter renders a matter manipulator impotent,

but a realm without Time renders a reality manipulator useless aswell.


And what is Time?

a part of Reality,

and what is Reality?

Time and Space.

Reality and thus time and space are under the control of the Reality manipulator in your example.

Therefore if the reality manipulator simply wills time then his concept of time is what comes to pass.

Without time, the matter manipulator is completely useless as well.

Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
Reality and thus time and space are under the control of the Reality manipulator in your example.

Therefore if the reality manipulator simply wills time then his concept of time is what comes to pass.

Without time, the matter manipulator is completely useless as well.


Interesting,

that must be the DC outlook on the subject, cause in Marvel Tiame and Space is what makes up Reality.

Without Time and Space (in Marvel) you have nothingness.


When Thanos absorbed the Multi-verse, nothing remained, no Reality.

"Nothing Remained"
http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/991/allhecouldum7.th.jpg



Then, in order to bring Reality back:

"Next requires Space and Time which no longer exist"
http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/8809/allhecould3sq3.th.jpg



Also:


When the FURY teleported Jim Jaspers, perhaps the ultimate Reality Manipulator ever in Marvel:


The FURY realizes "Jim can Alter Reality at Whim, what if, there were NO Reality to Altar"

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/3870/j2ya8.th.jpg

So the FURY, teleports both Jaspers and itself to UN-SPACE


The Result

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/3924/j3np2.th.jpg


If your getting your info from DC, I'll agree when debating strickly within the confines of that company, but as you can see, Marvel looks at it differently.

Well in our real world physics concepts, from which both comic lines are derived, reality is only energy. Time and space both started after the universe started in the Big Bang model. Time and space cease to exist within a singularity but we know the singularity exists because of the effect it exerts on the space-time around it.

Originally posted by thtadthtshldntb
Well in our real world physics concepts,

Well, since we're dealing with Comics ONLY in these forums, I'm right I must say.


In the real World, which has NOTHING to do with Comics, your right I suppose.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Well, since we're dealing with Comics ONLY in these forums, I'm right I must say.


In the real World, which has NOTHING to do with Comics, your right I suppose.

if the real world has nothing to do with comics, how then do we know what any of the words in the books mean? Its a made up universe, since it has nothing to do with the real world, how do we know what say Spiderman's or Aquaman's names really mean? For all we know they could be ranks not names.... if there is no connection then we cannot apply our real world meanings of the words Spider, man and aqua to those universes characters names....

Those universes are derived fiction of our own "real" universe and inherit properties from the parent object. Without those properties we, the processors of the data, would not be able to understand what is on the printed page.

Or simply put... "words mean things" to quote Rush Limbaugh....

Originally posted by thtadthtshldntb
if the real world has nothing to do with comics, how then do we know what any of the words in the books mean? Its a made up universe, since it has nothing to do with the real world, how do we know what say Spiderman's or Aquaman's names really mean? For all we know they could be ranks not names.... if there is no connection then we cannot apply our real world meanings of the words Spider, man and aqua to those universes characters names....

Those universes are derived fiction of our own "real" universe and inherit properties from the parent object. Without those properties we, the processors of the data, would not be able to understand what is on the printed page.

Or simply put... "words mean things" to quote Rush Limbaugh....


Nice,


so what does all this have to with the bottom line:


"Space and Time make up REALITY" to quote Marvel Comics.


Without Space and Time, a Reality manipulator is impotent.


All the wise logic in the World will never change that in these versus forums.

We go by what Marvel & DC say, and that's what we base our debates on.

Which quote?

From what issue?

Like when Thanos wiped out time and space but still existed, as well as three others from that time and space?

Marvel has no rules when it comes to Cosmic structure, each writer and editor make it up from an issue to issue basis and then 3 years later it is retconned.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Interesting,

that must be the DC outlook on the subject, cause in Marvel Tiame and Space is what makes up Reality.

Without Time and Space (in Marvel) you have nothingness.


When Thanos absorbed the Multi-verse, nothing remained, no Reality.

"Nothing Remained"
http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/991/allhecouldum7.th.jpg



Then, in order to bring Reality back:

"Next requires Space and Time which no longer exist"
http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/8809/allhecould3sq3.th.jpg



When in possession of something such as the IG or the HOTU, you are no simple matter manipulator. You manipulate ALL spectrums.


Originally posted by Mr Master
Also:


When the FURY teleported Jim Jaspers, perhaps the ultimate Reality Manipulator ever in Marvel:


The FURY realizes "Jim can Alter Reality at Whim, what if, there were NO Reality to Altar"

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/3870/j2ya8.th.jpg

So the FURY, teleports both Jaspers and itself to UN-SPACE


The Result

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/3924/j3np2.th.jpg

That scene in itself is contradictory. If there was no time..how were they moving? How did moments proceed? How were they still in any kind of material form or have access to powers when it's NOT a reality?

A void is still a reality of some kind. NOTHING may exist, but it's still a reality.

Originally posted by Mr Master
If your getting your info from DC, I'll agree when debating strickly within the confines of that company, but as you can see, Marvel looks at it differently.

I'm taking things from DC, Marvel, Image, and real life. The thread starter didn't confine the battle to any single universe so it's up to us in the debate to arrive to a conclusion.

theyre technically the same. you can never come to an conclusion

Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
When in possession of something such as the IG or the HOTU, you are no simple matter manipulator. You manipulate ALL spectrums.

Kool, but what the scan shows is that Marvel considers Reality Time and Space.


Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
That scene in itself is contradictory. If there was no time..how were they moving? How did moments proceed? How were they still in any kind of material form or have access to powers when it's NOT a reality?

They were surrrounded by Un-Reality, they were surrounded by a Timeless, Spaceless void. which equals to no Reality.

They themselves were not Un-Reality, their surroundings were.


Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
A void is still a reality of some kind. NOTHING may exist, but it's still a reality.

Not in Marvel.


Actually in Marvel NOTHING DOES Exist (Oblivion) but it is NOT Reality.


I could swamp this thread with a truckload of examples if you wish,

if you know my style, then you know I'm not just saying this.


Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
I'm taking things from DC, Marvel, Image, and real life. The thread starter didn't confine the battle to any single universe so it's up to us in the debate to arrive to a conclusion.

Well then, I'll speak for Marvel exclusively since I know little of DC.

You can't be taking your info from Marvel cause I am, and in Marvel No Time and Space = No Reality.

Actually, insofar as I have ever seen or heard of No-Reality cannot exist in Marvel... Reed did (Thanos did not, as he still existed and wherever AW, G and the baby were existed) and immeditately reality came back to existence.

Btw, you no time and no space arguement fails because black holes exist in marvel, and a black hole is what markes the event horizon for a singularity...and in a singularity neither time nor space exist but the singularity is still part of reality.

Can reality warp energy cos i know matter cannot

yes reaity can manipulate more forms of energy than matter (matter is a form of energy).

Originally posted by Mr Master
The manisfestation of wisdom...


Eloquently put LU.


Why, Thank You.

i didnt think anything more could possibly be added to this ppl are arguing in circles now...matter manipulation is admittledy a slightly lower tier than reality manipulation, but at the end of the day...as far as comics are concerned they are both dependent on already existing substance to work with..as was seen with Jim jaspers being renderd powerless in a void, or thanos destroying reality by destroying space and time..

the main gist im trying to get across is that once characters weild thier respective powers on a global or cosmic scale..the line between the two is unrecognizable, as i said earlier in this thread where old school reality warping beyonder cuased massive amounts of damage across the multiverse, and molecule man ended up repairing it with his matter controlling powers. i even have an old hercules comic where galactus made his giant energy consuming thing out of air molecules. once its up those lvls the difference is only fundamental

Originally posted by manjaro
i didnt think anything more could possibly be added to this ppl are arguing in circles now...matter manipulation is admittledy a slightly lower tier than reality manipulation, but at the end of the day...as far as comics are concerned they are both dependent on already existing substance to work with..as was seen with Jim jaspers being renderd powerless in a void, or thanos destroying reality by destroying space and time..

the main gist im trying to get across is that once characters weild thier respective powers on a global or cosmic scale..the line between the two is unrecognizable, as i said earlier in this thread where old school reality warping beyonder cuased massive amounts of damage across the multiverse, and molecule man ended up repairing it with his matter controlling powers. i even have an old hercules comic where galactus made his giant energy consuming thing out of air molecules. once its up those lvls the difference is only fundamental

Originally posted by Mr Master
Kool, but what the scan shows is that Marvel considers Reality Time and Space.

It says they are needed for the universe. It doesn't say that they are exclusively the 2 ingredients needed for reality.

Even so, that scene basically proves that the reality manipulator IS in fact the most powerful. All matter was removed along with all time and space. He was #1 and without time and space there is no reality (by your example) and without reality...there is no matter.

Can someone explain to me how Franklin made another reality to house the supposedly dead heroes? Im pretty sure he can make matter out of nothing ness...

reality = the abstract AND the concretet.

matter = only the conrete; can't break the laws of physics

Your already breaking the laws of Physics when you have cosmic powers..

Couldn't the Reality Manipulator just make so the Matter Manipulator has no powers at all?

Pre-retcon Molecule Man was a Matter manipulator and was MORE powerful than Entities that could create Universes from scratch.

Originally posted by SuperHNIC
reality = the abstract AND the concretet.

matter = only the conrete; can't break the laws of physics

But you can alter them to whatever extent you want. Then, you can accomplish the same feat WITHOUT breaking the laws of physics. .

Originally posted by Soljer
But you can alter them to whatever extent you want. Then, you can accomplish the same feat WITHOUT breaking the laws of physics. .
It's not really the same thing though. Say you tell two men to make a house disappear. Let's say he's the Space Pope, so he teleports the house to the bottom of the ocean. The second man burns the house to the ground. It's technically the same feat isn't it? They accomplished the same thing through different means.

matter manipulator could turn a brown wooden shack into a gold and marble palace.

reality manipulator could turn a brown wooden shack into woody allen.

see the difference?

Originally posted by manorastroman
matter manipulator could turn a brown wooden shack into a gold and marble palace.

reality manipulator could turn a brown wooden shack into woody allen.

see the difference?

Uhhh...the matter manipulator could just as easily swap around a few protons and electrons inside each atom, to create the required elements in the required sequence to produce the necessary DNA, Proteins, Lipids, and Carbohydrates to compose a human being. Even woody allen.

Originally posted by Soljer
Uhhh...the matter manipulator could just as easily swap around a few protons and electrons inside each atom, to create the required elements in the required sequence to produce the necessary DNA, Proteins, Lipids, and Carbohydrates to compose a human being. Even woody allen.

somehow i doubt it. regardless, that would at most make the replica of woody allen's body.

i mean the actual woody allen, soul and all.

Originally posted by Soljer
Even woody allen.

That presupposes that matter = reality, there is no spiritual dimension, no soul, life is just a collection of chemicals.

The comic book universes are not materialistic in this sense. Higher/nonphysical planes abound. As such, this elan vital ought to be beyond the reach of the matter manipulator.

Of course one could argue (since this is all fictional) that if a matter manipulator assembled the right chemicals, this would attract a soul down from heaven.

*rolls eyes* Don't start with the 'soul' of woody allen. There is absolutely no evidence that points to monism, dualism, or pluralism absolutely. They are all just schools of thought. If I assemble woody allen, I MADE woody allen.

not in the comic world, where there are very clearly souls. in fact, souls are one of reality's six aspects.

and just because there's no evidence doesn't mean that assembling woody allen=making woody allen. it means only that...there's no evidence. thinking that assembling=making not only assumes that (in the context of this argument) matter manipulation has ACCESS to the components required, but that this purely chemical school of thought is somehow a more valid school of thought.

none of which matters, because in comics there are souls.

Originally posted by Soljer
Uhhh...the matter manipulator could just as easily swap around a few protons and electrons inside each atom, to create the required elements in the required sequence to produce the necessary DNA, Proteins, Lipids, and Carbohydrates to compose a human being. Even woody allen.

Nicely put Sol.

Originally posted by manorastroman
not in the comic world, where there are very clearly souls. in fact, souls are one of reality's six aspects.

and just because there's no evidence doesn't mean that assembling woody allen=making woody allen.

none of which matters, because in comics there are souls.

This ought to settles this debate once and for all.


Shaper of Worlds (Reality Manipulator) KILLS Marsha (Volcana) by dissolving her completely:

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/9606/o1ml0.th.jpg



POST-Retcon Molecule Man (Matter Manipulator) RE-CREATES her like nothing, soul and all:

http://img475.imageshack.us/img475/3221/o2hy0.th.jpg

IN the end, A reality Manipulator can take NOTHING and make it something. This is what Reality means. Reality is more than what you guys are trying to make it out to. It is not a simple thing as manipulating matter. Reality can manipulate perception, thought, meanings, even energy. Matter Manipulators cannot do that. In the true sense, can a matter manipulator fight a high tier telepath who is in astral form only? Nope, he would get his ass kicked. But a reality manipulator could pull that astral form right into the concrete here and now. REality wins. Nuff said.

Originally posted by Mr Master
This ought to settles this debate once and for all.


Shaper of Worlds (Reality Manipulator) KILLS Marsha (Volcana) by dissolving her completely:

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/9606/o1ml0.th.jpg



POST-Retcon Molecule Man (Matter Manipulator) RE-CREATES her like nothing, soul and all:

http://img475.imageshack.us/img475/3221/o2hy0.th.jpg
That is an impressive feat but he essentially makes a copy of this woman.

Even on a universal scale, a matter manipulator can really only build what he's allowed to by the laws of physics, right? I mean, he can't make a pure gold bar that explodes when exposed to fire. Gold doesn't do that, he could only make some kind of facsimile. Or abuse some kind of insanely complex science that we don't understand yet but let's not count that.

Say he wanted to make it so Hitler was killed by a brick when he was 10 years old and on the crapper. The matter manipulator could remake the entire universe, or maybe just Earth, whatever, so that's what everybody knows to of happened. Complete with an old busted skull in a museum with a brick next to it. Although I don't know why it would be there if he wasn't infamous.

But it didn't really.

The actual difference is really kind of small isn't it? It's like comparing a pizza with 3 of your favorite toppings to a pizza with 2 of your favorite toppings.

Franklin Richards created a pocket universe. Parallax Wiped Clean all time, souls, realities, and matter and energy and then when it was gone, remade it all. A high tier or top tier reality mannipulator doesn't need anything to create something. Reality is WHAT he makes it. Mr. Mxy can go into the void of nothing and create an entire multiverse/universe. See a reality manipulator can change the rules and make them thier own. A matter manipulator can break the rules or bend them. It's not the same. REality Makes the rules. matter breaks them. Reality wins. REality is what something means, matter is simply what something is. IF the reality manipulator wanted, they could make it so that matter manipulation means someone who controlls ice cream. A matter manip can NOT do anything on that kind of advanced abstract lvl of power.