Just how durable is Juggernaut without his force-field?

bigbran

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
And Juggernaut beat the Hell out of Thor. I don't nessasarily mean in this issue, but in there second fight, Juggernaut could have also won. And, I'll admit, Juggernaut did beat a WEAKENED Thor.
http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/6374/thor198941113vd0.th.jpg

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/9229/thor198941118ob7.jpg OK, ya got me. But it still doesn't mean that Juggernaut is totally portrayed wrong.
One thing, from his first appearance in Thor comics?

Ptr_Grifin

Originally posted by bigbran
And, I'll admit, Juggernaut did beat a WEAKENED Thor.
http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/6374/thor198941113vd0.th.jpg

OK, ya got me. But it still doesn't mean that Juggernaut is totally portrayed wrong.
One thing, from his first appearance in Thor comics?

Same writers, really no chance of them catching up on who Juggernaut is. They couldn't even keep his shield the same color.

Tom DeFalco also helped write the ASM issues where he fought Juggernaut. I believe they also claimed he was a mutant. I will try to find it later.

By the way, Thor was not weakened in that fight. He had a dizzy spell which passed, but afterwards he was perfectly fine.

bigbran

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
Same writers, really no chance of them catching up on who Juggernaut is. They couldn't even keep his shield the same color.

Tom DeFalco also helped write the ASM issues where he fought Juggernaut. I believe they also claimed he was a mutant. I will try to find it later.

By the way, Thor was not weakened in that fight. He had a dizzy spell which passed, but afterwards he was perfectly fine. And? Wait, his force feild was only shown like... twice? How can it be wrong?

It passed, right after Juggernaut got a cheap shot on him... right?
Also, I don't remember it passing... maybe after he got revived, but it never said anythign about it passing.
Thor even said he had to gather up his remaining strength.

Ptr_Grifin

Originally posted by bigbran
And? Wait, his force feild was only shown like... twice? How can it be wrong?

It passed, right after Juggernaut got a cheap shot on him... right?
Also, I don't remember it passing... maybe after he got revived, but it never said anythign about it passing.
Thor even said he had to gather up his remaining strength.

"The delirium flees my mind...and strength returns to my limbs."

After that Thor summoned a thunderbolt and Juggernaut said, "that tickled". Thor realizing he couldn't harm him and used the Godblast

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/7171/thor198941213np6.jpg

bigbran

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
"The delirium flees my mind...and strength returns to my limbs."

After that Thor summoned a thunderbolt and Juggernaut said, "that tickled". Thor realizing he couldn't harm him and used the Godblast

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/7171/thor198941213np6.jpg I know... except, that is in the next comic.
So, in the next comic, it has left.

So, Juggernaut beat a weakened Thor.

Last page:
Thor is laying on the ground.

Next comic:
The New Warriors show up.

I'll bust out the whole comic full of scans if I have to.

Ptr_Grifin

Originally posted by bigbran
I know... except, that is in the next comic.
So, in the next comic, it has left.

So, Juggernaut beat a weakened Thor.

Last page:
Thor is laying on the ground.

Next comic:
The New Warriors show up.

I'll bust out the whole comic full of scans if I have to.

I didn't word what I meant to say right. I am trying to say Juggernaut took Thor's attacks no problem. Although Juggernaut did smack Thor around alittle before he became ill. But you are right the actual fist fight was handicapped. I didn't quite mean to get into this debate.

Juggernaut did fair just as well against Thor as Thor did to him in there second fight.

But the original argument was that the writers didn't know enough about Juggernaut. Both comics featured his shield and both were written by the same people.

bigbran

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
Juggernaut did fair just as well against Thor as Thor did to him in there second fight.

But the original argument was that the writers didn't know enough about Juggernaut. Both comics featured his shield and both were written by the same people. Indeed.

It was only one mistake. It actually had everything else right though (first fight).

Plus, how can he do his shield wrong? There isn't enough evidence to even tell what it looks like.

Soujaboy

Juggernauts durability doesn't derive from his shield.

Ptr_Grifin

Originally posted by bigbran
Plus, how can he do his shield wrong? There isn't enough evidence to even tell what it looks like.

Well, its written and drawn by the same people, Ron Frenz and Tom DeFlaco. They could have stayed consistent with that.

The first fight had a see through shield, but it was visible. And their second fight had a flat out pink/red shield that was about 2 feet away from his body. Neither fight was the shield drawn, except when mentioned.

Then you have Spider-man in which his shield was bright yellow. Deflaco also had a hand in this one. These are the only fights his shield has actually been mentioned and shown.

bigbran

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
Well, its written and drawn by the same people, Ron Frenz and Tom DeFlaco. They could have stayed consistent with that.

The first fight had a see through shield, but it was visible. And their second fight had a flat out pink/red shield that was about 2 feet away from his body. Neither fight was the shield drawn, except when mentioned.

Then you have Spider-man in which his shield was bright yellow. Deflaco also had a hand in this one. These are the only fights his shield has actually been mentioned and shown. His shield wasn't shown in the second fight. It was exactly the same as the first one... invisible.

Ptr_Grifin

Originally posted by bigbran
His shield wasn't shown in the second fight. It was exactly the same as the first one... invisible.

I hate to disagree with you again, but...

http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/3100/thor199142914ts6.th.jpg

bigbran

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
I hate to disagree with you again, but...

http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/3100/thor199142914ts6.th.jpg Shit, forgot about that one.
I was mostly talking about earlier:
http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/4651/thor199142909rq0.th.jpg

Well, there is an inconsistency, I guess...

Anyway, here is Juggs getting hurt:
http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/5661/thor199142914qp7.th.jpg

Ptr_Grifin

Like I said, his shield is usually shown when it is actually talked about. Other than that, you could argue that he isn't using it.

Even though his brain is taking a beating, would you say that he is indestructable? His body isn't showing any bruises or blood.

Swanky-Tuna

I would say "pretty" durable considering he gets hit all the time and his shield is down 99% of the time.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Anyone have a Youtube video of the X-men tv cartoon from the 90's? There is an episode in which Shi'ar got a hold of Juggy and threw him miles and miles away.

Even Jubilee says something like "Gosh, I've never seen anyone do that to the Juggernaut"
It was an effective way to show how powerful Phoenix was to the kids because she later whomped Gladiator, the guy that threw Juggernaut, but it never happened in the comics.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
And Juggernaut beat the Hell out of Thor. I don't nessasarily mean in this issue, but in there second fight, Juggernaut could have also won.

http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/9229/thor198941118ob7.jpg
Hahaha, look at Juggernaut, he's reacting to the caption. But if they portray him as a mutant it implies that the writers really didn't know much about Juggernaut so they winged it. Wung it? Improvised.

long pig

The shatterstar thing is moot, it's a magic sword. Hulk never harmed him, just knocked the air out of him. Thor disconnected Jug from his power source, making him vulnerable. He basically fought the depowered version of Jugg there. Venom scared him, so...yeah. NC made him say "ahh!" on reflex.

He's pretty much invulnerable, though.

Swanky-Tuna

In the Venom comic he says he's late for a haircut and leaves. That's about as stupid as the rest of the comic was.

Accel

Originally posted by long pig
The shatterstar thing is moot, it's a magic sword. Hulk never harmed him, just knocked the air out of him. Thor disconnected Jug from his power source, making him vulnerable. He basically fought the depowered version of Jugg there. Venom scared him, so...yeah. NC made him say "ahh!" on reflex.

He's pretty much invulnerable, though.
I figured that since Hulk did knock the wind out of him and Cain ended up on his knees, that meant he was harmed, if even only a little bit. That's usually what it means for every one else. The Thor incident didn't involve Thor negate his power source. He just took away his shield, as they stated in the comic.

What I also want to know is, just where does it come from that Juggernaut is completely impervious to harm without his shield?

Swanky-Tuna

I think the shield is just a one-but-really-two-or-three time thing. You don't really see him running around shrinking people or firing magic bolts do you?

carver9

example of juggernaut powers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juggernaut_(comics)

Newjak

Originally posted by Accel
I figured that since Hulk did knock the wind out of him and Cain ended up on his knees, that meant he was harmed, if even only a little bit. That's usually what it means for every one else. The Thor incident didn't involve Thor negate his power source. He just took away his shield, as they stated in the comic.

What I also want to know is, just where does it come from that Juggernaut is completely impervious to harm without his shield? Yeah that did happen but some people credit to the pyshic backlash som epeople say he just got knocked down.

In their first fight Hulk was hitting probably harder then in that fight Cain said he wasn't feeling a thing pretty much. So as to that fight it really is mute since we have other evidence that Cain can take hits from Hulk without feeling anything.

Also as for the NC torch incident Cain has had Molten Lava poured of him and not felt anything. Even in the comic with Thor you see that they heat up his armor to white hot tempratures to no aveal. It's safe that was more of an artisitic moment more than actual feeling of pain.

As for Thor it's so hard to say what was going on there. But Cain in the 8th Day Saga when he wasn't under control was taking shots from StoneCutter that were described by narration as the greatest exhange to ever take place on Earth. It also made no mention of his shield there. He also took on Nightmare without his shield and was taking energy blasts from him without problem.

I think that is why people attribute to the beating Thor gave Cain in his second fight to a depowering temporarly because if also notice once his powers return to full he goes back to 100 percent when he previously was on the ropes. If his durability was directly linked to the shield he would have still been injured from before but no he is completely back to fighting form i nthe next panel.

So for the most part I think it is safe to say Cain is basically as durable without his shield as he is with it.

Accel

I was actually referring to moments just before the backlash, when Hulk punched him int he gut and put him on his knees. Cain never really stated he didn't feel Hulk's blows IIRC, but the only time he would've commented on them was when Hulk was already down. It would have also been easier to take a unch when he was battle-ready instead when someone just punches him in the gut unexpectedly.

I never took the NC incident seriously. It just serves as another example that maybe writers don't see Juggernaut so much as invulnerable rather than more durable than most top-tiers.

The Thor incident, I believe relates to Cain recovering almost instantly after getting his shield back. He is supposed to have a healing factor, so it wouldn't be too far-fetched to say he healed from the damage a few seconds after getting his shield back.

Are there any specific incidents that where we know for certain that Cain's shield isn't up that he endures significant damage (I mean extremely significant damage for any top-tier) and shows absolutely no signs of being hurt whatsoever?

long pig

For every half way instance where Cain -may- look hurt by something small like...fire...or hurt by a punch....there are a thousand other times where he's swam in lava and taken a speeding train to the gut without blinking.

So, basically, his true feats outweigh his shitty, nonsense feats 100 fold.

Martian_mind

Originally posted by long pig
For every half way instance where Cain -may- look hurt by something small like...fire...or hurt by a punch....there are a thousand other times where he's swam in lava and taken a speeding train to the gut without blinking.

So, basically, his true feats outweigh his shitty, nonsense feats 100 fold.

The Pig hath Spoken!!!!!he has deemed that the Nothing will stop the Juggernaut(until he runs into Ragman)

long pig

Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
I think the shield is just a one-but-really-two-or-three time thing. You don't really see him running around shrinking people or firing magic bolts do you?
I kinda agree, here.

His shield is never mentioned until he's in a crossover comic. His shield is never shown or even used until Thor's comic, actually.

They pretty much invented the shield thing FOR Thor to overcome, I believe.

Anyone know previous appearances of the shield before Thor?

Ptr_Grifin

Originally posted by long pig
I kinda agree, here.

His shield is never mentioned until he's in a crossover comic. His shield is never shown or even used until Thor's comic, actually.

They pretty much invented the shield thing FOR Thor to overcome, I believe.

Anyone know previous appearances of the shield before Thor?

ASM #229 also mentioned it. It was a bright yellow that was about 2 feet away from his body. But I wouldn't take that one seriously either. When Spidey fired webbing at him it stopped 2 feet away from his body and you could see the shield. A few pages later the webbing is touch him and sticking to him with no visible shield.

Originally posted by Newjak
Also as for the NC torch incident Cain has had Molten Lava poured of him and not felt anything. Even in the comic with Thor you see that they heat up his armor to white hot tempratures to no aveal. It's safe that was more of an artisitic moment more than actual feeling of pain.

I posted this in another topic.
Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
I am having a hard time believing the Nightcrawler one. Because of these two instances:

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/6310/deadpool02p21zg7.th.jpg

He ends up fighting for a few pages like that. He doesn't even recognize the fire. He is not yelling because he is in pain but because he is pissed.

Accel

I'm still wondering just where was it first established that Cain is completely invulnerable and not just extremely durable. I know taking the Godblast is a famous moment, but I believe it could be argued that he had his shield up.

Does Cain have any moments where we know his shield isn't up and he takes some highly uber-powerful attack to no effect? Let's say Captain Marvel (DC) gets hit by an attack so powerful that it knocks him out and then Cain endures that same attack with no shield, would Cain necessarily just shrug it off?

long pig

Like I said, the shield seems only to occure in crossovers.

Swanky-Tuna

Originally posted by Accel
I'm still wondering just where was it first established that Cain is completely invulnerable and not just extremely durable. I know taking the Godblast is a famous moment, but I believe it could be argued that he had his shield up.

Does Cain have any moments where we know his shield isn't up and he takes some highly uber-powerful attack to no effect? Let's say Captain Marvel (DC) gets hit by an attack so powerful that it knocks him out and then Cain endures that same attack with no shield, would Cain necessarily just shrug it off?
You're looking for a moment where he takes a comparable amount of damage to another character and it specifically states his shield is done so it isn't debatable?

Accel

In a way. Basically, I'd like to know when he's taken physical damage that would take most characters with top-tier level
and just shrugged it off. The Godblast is the only example I know of, but I think he may have had his shield up, since he had it up earlier in that saem fight when Thor threw his hammer.

I'm primarily asking where exactly it was established that Cain is physically invulnerable to harm.

grey fox

What about when Cain had all his flesh torn off ?

He was skeletal and simply staled that he's 'powered by hate' or something like that

h1a8

Originally posted by grey fox
What about when Cain had all his flesh torn off ?

He was skeletal and simply staled that he's 'powered by hate' or something like that

That was by a certain mystical power in which is one of the ways he can be harmed.
But notice. He didn't even feel any pain as he is speaking calmly.

Dinalfos

There's another instance where he appeared to get hurt. It's in a Deadpool comic, where Pool drops shattered glass on him. He goes like "aaaargh". He later said that it didn't "hurt", so I guess it was just a reflex. But it goes to show that his skin is not completely insensitive.

juggernaut74

Originally posted by Accel

I'm primarily asking where exactly it was established that Cain is physically invulnerable to harm. Well you can get a good indication by looking at all of his fights with Hulk cause Hulk didn't really hurt him at all. Not one time did he have his shield up, that's why Hulk lasted so long. If Juggy would have had his shield up he would have easily defeated Hulk. We know this cause in all of their fights Juggies helmet was knocked off, even against War Hulk.

Decay

i think the major function of his forcefield is to keep him from being knocked around. like when he fights someone well below his strength class like venom and he gets hit and falls back and stuff. unhurt, but the impact still causes his body to move back, the forcefield just takes the kinetic energy before it reaches him, so he doesnt spend most of the fight getting back up from hits that arnt doing anything to him.

he does yell like hes in pain a bit, but always says he feels no pain. i think it is mostly a reflex, like if someone hits you with a balloon, you flinch, even though it only going to bounce off and have no real effect. in the fight with thor didnt he neutralise alot of the juggernauts powers, not just his forcefield?

Newjak

Originally posted by long pig
I kinda agree, here.

His shield is never mentioned until he's in a crossover comic. His shield is never shown or even used until Thor's comic, actually.

They pretty much invented the shield thing FOR Thor to overcome, I believe.

Anyone know previous appearances of the shield before Thor? Actually a rather crude version may have been shown in his first appreance ever. I say crude because basically all it was was his aura giving off so much energy that no one could get close to him even pushing Xavier backwards. While later people were managing to get close and touch so whether it was a permanet thing is doubtful.

As for other durability feats he has had a gas tanker driven into him at high speeds without so much as moving coming out of the resulting inferno completely unscathed. He also harmlessly absrobed something like a million volts of electricity without so much a flinching.

In his encounter with Nightmare( a being that was able to almost effortlessly subdue Doctor Strange) he was taking blasts from him and punches without getting harmed only later to be thrown into oblivion by Eternity.

In his fight with the Hulk he makes several mentions after being hit by the Hulk that he is completely unhurt and unfazed.

His his fights with Exemplars he takes attacks that are supposed to be astronomical in force without being fazed or hurt.

Later he fightsStonecutter and trades blows that are said to be the strongest ever felt on Earth and he does it without being harmed.

Remember that all these feats make no mention of his shield and all the attacks actually touch him so no shield was actually being used.

Accel

Originally posted by juggernaut74
Well you can get a good indication by looking at all of his fights with Hulk cause Hulk didn't really hurt him at all. Not one time did he have his shield up, that's why Hulk lasted so long. If Juggy would have had his shield up he would have easily defeated Hulk. We know this cause in all of their fights Juggies helmet was knocked off, even against War Hulk.
How do you figure he'd win easily? If his shield was up, they wouldn't be able to fight and nothing would happen.

And I'm not convinced he's completely invulnerable from their fights. In their first fight, Juggernaut knocks him down from behind and can take a punch from Hulk while he's down. In the later when Juggernaut was in street clothes, Professor Hulk held back, not knowing who he was up against. And against War Hulk, Juggernaut was pretty much knocked around and apparently had a moment of doubt in the fight.

I'd consider those moments good indications that he's extremely durable, but not good indications that he's completely invulnerable.

Newjak

Originally posted by Accel
How do you figure he'd win easily? If his shield was up, they wouldn't be able to fight and nothing would happen.

And I'm not convinced he's completely invulnerable from their fights. In their first fight, Juggernaut knocks him down from behind and can take a punch from Hulk while he's down. In the later when Juggernaut was in street clothes, Professor Hulk held back, not knowing who he was up against. And against War Hulk, Juggernaut was pretty much knocked around and apparently had a moment of doubt in the fight.

I'd consider those moments good indications that he's extremely durable, but not good indications that he's completely invulnerable. Actually in his first fight he makes mention after getting punched and trwon around that he literally is unfazed and that Hulk must not know who he is that is completely unstoppable.

The only reason he doubted himself was basically because Hulk managed to stop him. But if you notice he was completely unfazed by War Hulk's attacks.

juggernaut74

Originally posted by Accel
How do you figure he'd win easily? If his shield was up, they wouldn't be able to fight and nothing would happen.

And I'm not convinced he's completely invulnerable from their fights. In their first fight, Juggernaut knocks him down from behind and can take a punch from Hulk while he's down. In the later when Juggernaut was in street clothes, Professor Hulk held back, not knowing who he was up against. And against War Hulk, Juggernaut was pretty much knocked around and apparently had a moment of doubt in the fight.

I'd consider those moments good indications that he's extremely durable, but not good indications that he's completely invulnerable. He backhanded Thor with no trouble with his shield up. Or are you saying Juggy cannot attack when his shield is up?

In their first fight Hulk was doing no damage. Hulk #402 I don't think Hulk was holding back. Hulk even braced himself and said nothing can move him when he's braced. Juggy then moved Hulk easily. I would think Hulk would have taken the kid gloves off by then. War Hulk who was amped still could not hurt Juggy even with his shield down.

Accel

Originally posted by juggernaut74
He backhanded Thor with no trouble with his shield up. Or are you saying Juggy cannot attack when his shield is up?

In their first fight Hulk was doing no damage. Hulk #402 I don't think Hulk was holding back. Hulk even braced himself and said nothing can move him when he's braced. Juggy then moved Hulk easily. I would think Hulk would have taken the kid gloves off by then. War Hulk who was amped still could not hurt Juggy even with his shield down.
Generally, when his shield is shown, it's shown like an invisible bubble surrounding him, like when he slowed down the momentum of Mjolnir.

Professor Hulk was basically holding back because he kept underestimating his opponent. AT first he thought the "construction worker" was just stronger than he thought. Naturally, he kept trying harder and harder as the fight went on, but since he still didn't know just how tough his opponent was, he didn't go all out. Juggernaut even commented later on that Hulk fell for his trick of dressing up in street clothes.

juggernaut74

Originally posted by Accel
Generally, when his shield is shown, it's shown like an invisible bubble surrounding him, like when he slowed down the momentum of Mjolnir.

Professor Hulk was basically holding back because he kept underestimating his opponent. AT first he thought the "construction worker" was just stronger than he thought. Naturally, he kept trying harder and harder as the fight went on, but since he still didn't know just how tough his opponent was, he didn't go all out. Juggernaut even commented later on that Hulk fell for his trick of dressing up in street clothes. Didn't Hulk see Juggy with his helmet off though? I mean how many times would he have to push Hulk around. He even held Hulk underwater against his will! I don't buy it that Hulk wasn't trying.

And I remember him making the comment on wearing street clothes. He said he used the same tactic on Colossus before or something.

Accel

Originally posted by juggernaut74
Didn't Hulk see Juggy with his helmet off though? I mean how many times would he have to push Hulk around. He even held Hulk underwater against his will! I don't buy it that Hulk wasn't trying.

And I remember him making the comment on wearing street clothes. He said he used the same tactic on Colossus before or something.
I didn't say he wasn't trying at all, just not going all out. He obviously didn't know it was Juggernaut, despite, as he kept wondering who it was he was dealing with.

juggernaut74

Originally posted by Accel
I didn't say he wasn't trying at all, just not going all out. He obviously didn't know it was Juggernaut, despite, as he kept wondering who it was he was dealing with. I don't buy that Hulk was holding back. The "construction worker" moved Hulk when Hulk didn't want him to, survived a fall from a tall waterfall, held Hulk against his will underwater, escaped quicksand etc. Those feats are obviously above a regular person. That's how I see it.

Accel

Originally posted by juggernaut74
I don't buy that Hulk was holding back. The "construction worker" moved Hulk when Hulk didn't want him to, survived a fall from a tall waterfall, held Hulk against his will underwater, escaped quicksand etc. Those feats are obviously above a regular person. That's how I see it.
Right, which is why I said he only knew that the guy he was fighting was much stronger than a normal person, but it doesn't indicate "Juggernaut-level," so he never went all out. Keep in mind, this version had the Banner persona, so he wasn't all "Hulk Smash!"

Cain caught him by surprise and he completely underestimated his opponent.

Dinalfos

If he wasn't holding back, then he wouldn't have tried to save him from drowning. Nor would he pause the fight to question him about his identity. Or anything else for that matter.

Besides, hulk bracing himself and Juggernaut moving him doesn't mean anything because the Hulk is not immovable by any means. Anyone strong enough to be in the class 100 category can theoretically move him.

Newjak

Originally posted by Dinalfos
If he wasn't holding back, then he wouldn't have tried to save him from drowning. Nor would he pause the fight to question him about his identity. Or anything else for that matter. Yeah but at some point when your getting beat down you figure someone would fight back harder then what they were besides the fact Cain KOed him so even if he was holding back he still didn't have the dirability to take the pounding
erm

Dinalfos

Originally posted by Newjak
Yeah but at some point when your getting beat down you figure someone would fight back harder then what they were besides the fact Cain KOed him so even if he was holding back he still didn't have the dirability to take the pounding
erm

Prof. Hulk is a tad bit arrogant and overconfident. And of course, he's nowhere near invulnerable to harm like Juggernaut is. But I think it has more to do with the sloppy writing in that issue. Peter David has commented on this and not a whole lot of his vision of the fight is actually reflected on panel.

Newjak

Originally posted by Dinalfos
Prof. Hulk is a tad bit arrogant and overconfident. And of course, he's nowhere near invulnerable to harm like Juggernaut is. But I think it has more to do with the sloppy writing in that issue. Peter David has commented on this and not a whole lot of his vision of the fight is actually reflected on panel. More than likely yes

quick qeustion though what was Peter david's comments on the fight?

Dinalfos

Originally posted by Newjak
More than likely yes

quick qeustion though what was Peter david's comments on the fight?

I believe he intended it to be a lesson in humility for him. He wanted to show that he got lazy, overconfident and too reliant on the support of his teammates of The Pantheon. Now that last part is actually said in the comic, but he also wanted to make sure that this wasn't a regular fight. He wanted Hulk to underestimate his opponent, hold back, and be caught off guard. Unfortunately, he wrote the script in such a way that it left too many (valid) questions unanswered.

Newjak

Originally posted by Dinalfos
I believe he intended it to be a lesson in humility for him. He wanted to show that he got lazy, overconfident and too reliant on his teammates of the Pantheon. Now that last part is actually said in the comic, but he also wanted to make sure that this wasn't a regular fight. He wanted Hulk to underestimate his opponent, hold back, and be caught off guard. Unfortunately, he wrote the script in such a way that it left too many (valid) questions unanswered. Well you'll find that with any Juggernaut-Hulk fight. Basically Marvel at the times refused to give a fair and balanced fight to conclude a winner btween the two. It was probably more of the editers refusing to really give anyone a clear advantage.

Dinalfos

Originally posted by Newjak
Well you'll find that with any Juggernaut-Hulk fight. Basically Marvel at the times refused to give a fair and balanced fight to conclude a winner btween the two. It was probably more of the editers refusing to really give anyone a clear advantage.

Oh absolutely. That's why I really hate Marvel sometimes wink

Newjak

Originally posted by Dinalfos
Oh absolutely. That's why I really hate Marvel sometimes wink

I know honestly they were to afraid to give a clear cut winner between the two.

Just look a ttheir first just when it seems like both are really going to get into it the X-Men show up and mind blast Cain

Second fight they left it so up in the air.

Third fight Hulk has some new fancy armor that obviously is giving him in upgrade and they still don't defently show Hulk overpowering Cain completely.

Swanky-Tuna

The thing about Juggernaut is his power may fluctuate depending on his mental state. That's my theory.

Hmm... At one point wasn't Cyttorak's avatar supposed to represent like hate and greed and such? And when Juggernaut went against that he started losing his powers. But then Xavier was supposed to be the avatar?

I bring this up because my theory was like... the avatar of anger and hate becomes stronger when angrier and more hate filled. It focuses him. That's why he seemed stronger in the Eighth Day series. When his helmet comes off he loses his psychological mask and it takes the wind out of his sails and he becomes somewhat weaker.

Newjak

Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
The thing about Juggernaut is his power may fluctuate depending on his mental state. That's my theory.

Hmm... At one point wasn't Cyttorak's avatar supposed to represent like hate and greed and such? And when Juggernaut went against that he started losing his powers. But then Xavier was supposed to be the avatar?

I bring this up because my theory was like... the avatar of anger and hate becomes stronger when angrier and more hate filled. It focuses him. That's why he seemed stronger in the Eighth Day series. When his helmet comes off he loses his psychological mask and it takes the wind out of his sails and he becomes somewhat weaker. I do agree with this theory because Cain has resisited Telepathy before while he was exteremly angry.

And it would make sense. Remember in his one shot where he tells D'Spayre when I feel hate nothing can on this or any world can stop me.