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Who is the superior squid?

Dr. Octopus would win this fight. His tentacles are far superior, capable of not only keeping the Sentinel at bay but also crushing it with ease.

Sentinels, incredibly easily.

They have 15 tentacles to Doc's 4. Even if two Sentinel tentacles held onto each of Doc's, that's still 7 he has to fight off.

Plus they have a laser that can tear through metal.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Sentinels, incredibly easily.

They have 15 tentacles to Doc's 4. Even if two Sentinel tentacles held onto each of Doc's, that's still 7 he has to fight off.

Plus they have a laser that can tear through metal.

I believe his tentacles are longer than the Sentinels' (extending up to 18 feet), allowing him to keep them at bay while crushing or tearing them apart. He can also swat them with enough force to send them flying and damaged. The Sentinels' laser torches are short-range, designed for high-intensity cutting rather than long-range attacks. They function more like welding tools for breaching barriers rather than combat weapons.

Dr. Octopus' tentacles are significantly stronger than steel, as they effortlessly ripped off a several-foot-thick bank vault door.

Sentinels FTW

On paper a sentinel would need just one good hit to kill Ock, but he tanked some pretty ridiculous things in Spider-man 2, so it's hard to say. The Sentinels in the sequels had lasers. Does this one have a laser it can use to hit Ock from a distance?

I dont remember long distance lasers. Only the laser cutters up close.

I mean, we saw what happened when the Iron Spider suit deployed its appendages and went up against Ock:

https://i.imgur.com/Wwo3u7t.mp4

Now imagine 15 longer tentacles, plus 6 legs.

https://i.postimg.cc/P5nbS2zG/Wwo3u7t.jpg

The tentacles were tearing through Zion's tunnels when attacking; the lasers were going through the hoverships plating AND through the ship itself (which is about....10ft high?Trinity is 5ft8) and into the floor:

https://i.postimg.cc/L69g5wT8/snapshot.jpg

They're not just short range lasers.

Not to mention they fly, and pretty fast/agilely.

Originally posted by Thinkerer
I dont remember long distance lasers. Only the laser cutters up close.

Wtf is a short distance laser? The beam doesn't magically stop after 5 metres or whatever.

^^^

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I mean, we saw what happened when the Iron Spider suit deployed its appendages and went up against Ock:

https://i.imgur.com/Wwo3u7t.mp4

Now imagine 15 longer tentacles, plus 6 legs.

https://i.postimg.cc/P5nbS2zG/Wwo3u7t.jpg

The tentacles were tearing through Zion's tunnels when attacking; the lasers were going through the hoverships plating AND through the ship itself (which is about....10ft high?Trinity is 5ft8) and into the floor:

https://i.postimg.cc/L69g5wT8/snapshot.jpg

They're not just short range lasers.

Not to mention they fly, and pretty fast/agilely.
I stand corrected on the lasers.

1. His tentacles are longer than theirs, as they can extend up to approximately 13-15 feet. This allows him to either strike or grab them from a distance.
2. The Sentinels never used their lasers in direct combat - only for breaching barriers. The Matrix Revolutions shows how they actually fight.
3. The AI in his tentacles can react with incredible speed. They are fast enough to catch Spider-Man, shield himself from fast moving projectiles, etc.

Now, if we assume the combatants are fully controlled by us, then a Sentinel could easily win with its laser.

a sentinel wins with a single tow bomb lol.

One sentinel obliterates Ock with staggering ease.

Originally posted by h1a8
I stand corrected on the lasers.

1. His tentacles are longer than theirs, as they can extend up to approximately 13-15 feet. This allows him to either strike or grab them from a distance.
2. The Sentinels never used their lasers in direct combat - only for breaching barriers. The Matrix Revolutions shows how they actually fight.
3. The AI in his tentacles can react with incredible speed. They are fast enough to catch Spider-Man, shield himself from fast moving projectiles, etc.

Now, if we assume the combatants are fully controlled by us, then a Sentinel could easily win with its laser.

And I've shown how Ock and his tentacles fight i.e. the much shorter ranged Iron Spider gets within punching distance. He doesn't just stand far away and fully extend his tentacles and plays keep away.

Not to mention again, a squiddie doesn't really have a mind of its own; it's the entire Matrix fighting here against Doc Ock.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
And I've shown how Ock and his tentacles fight i.e. the much shorter ranged Iron Spider gets within punching distance. He doesn't just stand far away and fully extend his tentacles and plays keep away.

Not to mention again, a squiddie doesn't really have a mind of its own; it's the entire Matrix fighting here against Doc Ock.
That only works if:

1. There are no contradicting showings of how he fights.

2. It can be proven that Dr. Ock deliberately chose to fight that way - intentionally allowing Spider-Man to enter striking range before attacking.


Spider-Man is much faster than a Sentinel, so his ability to get within striking range isn't a result of Dr. Ock's choice. Moreover, Dr. Ock has caught and tagged Spider-Man multiple times without needing him to be within striking range.

He could simply grab a Sentinel and destroy it within seconds. The Sentinel operates on a programmed response system.

Name the times he used them to play keep away at their fullest extension in battle.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Name the times he used them to play keep away at their fullest extension in battle.

He doesn't need to play keep-away; he can simply grab it and destroy it or bat it out of the air.

His tentacles, which have a mind of their own, wouldn't intentionally allow it to come within striking range. If it does, it's only because it was faster than he or they could react to.

That's not how his fights went.

I think they both die 10/10 almost every time. The sentinel isn't going to quit or give up and for it to attack it has to get within range of his arms.

Almost every time you play this out, with that many tentacles grasping around autonomously...

A dive bomb from high altitude would be the sentinels best way of not getting hit

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
That's not how his fights went.
I disagree. He grabbed Spider-Man in one scene and batted him away in another.

But that's irrelevant. Why?
Because the tentacles have impressive perception and reaction feats.
Because neither the tentacles nor Dr. Ock would intentionally allow the Sentinel to get within striking range.

Anyone know how fast the sentinels and ships are? I mean they couldn't have ever been going more than a few hundred mph that I remember. The ships anyway. They never seemed as fast as an actual airplane. Maybe the animatrix has better feats.

Originally posted by h1a8
I disagree. He grabbed Spider-Man in one scene and batted him away in another.

But that's irrelevant. Why?
Because the tentacles have impressive perception and reaction feats.
Because neither the tentacles nor Dr. Ock would intentionally allow the Sentinel to get within striking range.

They weren't at full extension in those scenes, unless you can show this?

Your entire argument is predicated on Doc Ock fighting with his tentacles at full extension, keeping squiddie away. That Squiddie in turn wouldn't use it's laser, because that's not how it fights.

So Doc needs to be shown fighting the way you argue.

Originally posted by h1a8
The Sentinels never used their lasers in direct combat - only for breaching barriers. The Matrix Revolutions shows how they actually fight.

Why would squiddy not simply view the tentacles as obstacles between it and its target, and cut through them? Plenty of footage of them doing that. Seems like you're scripting a "battle mode" into squiddy which negates it's cutting tools.

Oh no please, not the "scifi metal of infinite durability" play. This is what ruins every debate involving transformers btw.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Why not? Doc seems the kind to want to fight up close. Every fight he has had, he does so (against Goblin, against both Spideys). If you want to argue he fights in this keep away, long distance manner, trying to take advantage of his longer tentacles, then you need to prove this.

It never appeared that he intentionally allowed his opponent to get within striking range. If they managed to close the distance, there was no indication that he permitted it on purpose.

You're creating a strawman by calling it "playing keep away." If I have a longer reach and throw a punch before you can get close enough to hit me, how is that playing "keep away"? If you do get within reach, it was never my intention.

Originally posted by Bashar Teg
Oh no please, not the "scifi metal of infinite durability" play. This is what ruins every debate involving transformers btw.

I take this back. I didn't realize doc's tentacles were titanium steel alloy, so it's not scifi metal. Still, no proof seems to exist that squiddy can cut that with it's laser, because I only recall seeing it tear through raw steel.

Maybe there is a feat hidden in the battle scenes from the 2nd or 3rd act, but I'm not sitting through all that shit again

Originally posted by h1a8
It never appeared that he intentionally allowed his opponent to get within striking range. If they managed to close the distance, there was no indication that he permitted it on purpose.

You're creating a strawman by calling it "playing keep away." If I have a longer reach and throw a punch before you can get close enough to hit me, how is that playing "keep away"? If you do get within reach, it was never my intention.

It was so he could gloat and talk in their faces, to see them up close (as seen with Peter,as seen with random guards).

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
It was so he could gloat and talk in their faces, to see them up close (as seen with Peter,as seen with random guards).

Show the scene where Spider-Man actively tries to attack Doc Ock, and Doc deliberately allows him to get within striking range just to gloat and talk - despite being able to do so from a distance.

Now consider:

1. Doc Ock was previously shown actively attacking Spider-Man from a distance, without allowing Spider-Man to come within striking range first.


2. The Sentinel is a machine. It's unreasonable to assume he or his tentacles would allow it within striking range just to talk.

Not unreasonable that he, a man of science, wishes to take a closer look at this new lifeform (for all he knows) that he has never seen before.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Not unreasonable that he, a man of science, wishes to take a closer look at this new lifeform (for all he knows) that he has never seen before.
Correct!
Not reasonable knowing that it's trying to kill him and that this is a forum fight.
Remember all combatants know they are in a fight.

Originally posted by h1a8
Correct!
Not reasonable knowing that it's trying to kill him and that this is a forum fight.
Remember all combatants know they are in a fight.

In that case, the Matrix (which is the ultimate brain of the Squiddie) controls the Squiddie and gives the programming to use its long range laser.

Thanks for spotting that.

That's true. Squiddie is really just a remote controlled drone.

Too late to edit: no wait, I was wrong. they were operating autonomously because they didn't stand down until they received the signal to do so. Not sure if there is proof that they can be operated remotely by the matrix

Originally posted by Bashar Teg
Too late to edit: no wait, I was wrong. they were operating autonomously because they didn't stand down until they received the signal to do so. Not sure if there is proof that they can be operated remotely by the matrix
Doesn't that....mean they're NOT autonomous?

I set my light to turn on at 7pm. It doesn't turn off until I give it the command to turn off at 9pm.

That doesn't mean my light is autonomous.

The sentinels clearly receive a signal to stand down, but in order to receive the signal, it extends what looks like a mini satellite dish. Was it possible that the matrix could upload new programming like that? I think so, easily.... but alas there is no proof of that that I know of

It seems to have standard commands, from which it deviates when receiving different orders.

There's nothing I recall to prove that they were more than just basic commands. hunt objective/stand down/return home/etc. there's nothing to prove that the matrix can be like "hey squiddie: use your cutting tool as an improvised weapon"

With that said, doc would logically be grappling with squiddie, thus trapping it. I see no reason to doubt that squiddie would cut it's way out of a trap, and be able to analyze doc's tentacles to hit them where they're weak. I also see no reason to believe that squiddle could never cut titanium steel alloy, even though it can cut raw steel like butter.


....this is why I don't endulge too much in this subforum. Too often the logical winner loses because of technicality

To be honest, I see Doc Ock winning this. I see the Sentinels more as ants or drones, that are basic in their ways, and are mostly powerful when with many. They go for the frontal assault, not using much of a strategy. A single one could therefore be besten by an intelligence such as the Doc, as the Sentinel will most likely go for a straight forward attack.

sentinels can act independently, but they still receive their primary orders from "important" matrix figureheads like agents and dues ex machina. but that shouldn't matter here, because the sentinel should still go into this in this battle with a single directive: to kill doc ock through any means necessary.

so like i said before- the sentinel just throws a tow bomb when the battle starts. sentinel wins.

I'm disagreeing with everyone here

@h1a8: the matrix is not just software. It is both the program and the sentient entity (hardware included). Proof: In part 3 we literally see the matrix physically plugging neo into the matrix. They're not one and the same

@deadpool: they do a lot of synchronized swarming, slicing/dicing, and laser cutting their way from point A to point B, but I don't recall them showing any problem solving skills. I think squiddie might be too dumb to win, even though it's better equipped

Originally posted by Bashar Teg
@deadpool: they do a lot of synchronized swarming, slicing/dicing, and laser cutting their way from point A to point B, but I don't recall them showing any problem solving skills. I think squiddie might be too dumb to win, though it's better equipped and throwing tow bombs at its designated target-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsmIzy6Qw7o&t=22s

which is literally all that's needed here.

Oh ok I misunderstood that part. Didn't know that bomb droid thing was called a "tow bomb". TIL

Are they standard equipment for squiddie? Because if not they probably count as a separate droid

they definitely seem to be standard equipment, as the sentinels used them a few different times- twice in the movies, and again in enter the matrix (which is 100% canon to the movies). once launched from the sentinel, the tow bombs independently lock onto and track the target until they collide and go boom. it's the same type of main weaponry used to defend machine city as well-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGTSuo9cIDI

so the sentinel just needs to stay out of range (which shouldn't be hard, since they can fly and doc can't). then all it needs to do is throw a tow bomb and it's game over. all this laser talk is totally irrelevant tbh.

I doubt it would throw a bomb at a human. They didn't throw a single bomb in the invasion of Zion.

Originally posted by Thinkerer
I doubt it would throw a bomb at a human. They didn't throw a single bomb in the invasion of Zion.

That's a good point. They could have won the war pretty quickly if each was able to deploy a tow bomb.

Originally posted by h1a8
They used them against distant ships, not against humanoid characters in close range. In combat with humanoid opponents, they don't rely on bombs or lasers. They won't choose to fly far away from Doc Ock just to throw a bomb at him that's what you would do if you were controlling them. the ships were targeted exactly because humans were on them. sentinels don't have some vendetta against ships specifically lol, it's the humans they were after. several birds with one stone kind of thing.

and the sentinels used tow bombs from long range because they were intentionally staying clear of the ship's emp radius. would be ridiculous to think they couldn't still be deployed from closer range.

zero reason to think a battleboard sentinel wouldn't deploy a tow bomb if it were given basic knowledge of doc ock and a "kill him" directive.


Originally posted by h1a8
Video games can't be used - only movies and shows. that's archaic and illogical tho. enter the matrix is just as canon as the actual movies. same with animatrix and the matrix webcomics. everything that happened in them is canon to the matrixverse, period. it is absolutely usable.

but that doesn't matter regardless, since sentinels used tow bombs multiple times in the movies anyway. valid tactic no matter what.

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
the ships were targeted exactly because humans were on them. sentinels don't have some vendetta against ships specifically lol, it's the humans they were after. several birds with one stone kind of thing.

and the sentinels used tow bombs from long range because they were intentionally staying clear of the ship's emp radius. would be ridiculous to think they couldn't still be deployed from closer range.

zero reason to think a battleboard sentinel wouldn't deploy a tow bomb if it were given basic knowledge of doc ock and a "kill him" directive.


that's archaic and illogical tho. enter the matrix is just as canon as the actual movies. same with animatrix and the matrix webcomics. everything that happened in them is canon to the matrixverse, period. it is absolutely usable.

but that doesn't matter regardless, since sentinels used tow bombs multiple times in the movies anyway. valid tactic no matter what.

The Sentinels have fought numerous humanoid beings and never used bombs. Even after many were destroyed, they still refrained from employing bombs, reserving them for ships. It's a stretch to assume a Sentinel would choose to throw a bomb at the start of a fight - that sounds more like a "you"-controlled Sentinel.

Additionally, my statement about Enter the Matrix referred to the forum rules, not the game's canonicity.

To be honest, the game isn't canon, regardless of what anyone claims, due to its multiple outcomes that contradict the movies. These contradictions arise from the player's choices, implying an alternate reality rather than canonical events.

@h1a8: "That was the architect, another program.
Remember that Neo made a deal with him earlier?"

maybe we're on some tangent now but actually agreeing. lets see:

The interweb says that the big matrix boss at the end of part 3 was called "Deus ex Machina". Maybe it was just another manifestation of the architect? Either way, i think we can agree that it was a sentient entity who was clearly in control of those (mini-sentinals?) that were swarming around neo. That scene definitely involved full remote control of other machines.
(of course that doesnt prove that the other sentinels were remote operated, only that it's not impossible)

The programs exist within the Matrix. Deus Ex Machina is far above that. Its an AI that exists outside of the Matrix and must be created it.

Originally posted by h1a8
The Sentinels have fought numerous humanoid beings and never used bombs. Even after many were destroyed, they still refrained from employing bombs, reserving them for ships. It's a stretch to assume a Sentinel would choose to throw a bomb at the start of a fight - that sounds more like a "you"-controlled Sentinel. so even though sentinels clearly have access to tow bombs, and used them multiple times in the movies to attack their specified human targets, you're telling me that in a forum fight they just....won't use all of the weaponry at their disposal lol?

it's cool. if you need to gimp the sentinel to give ock a shot here then go for it.

Originally posted by Bashar Teg
@h1a8: "That was the architect, another program.
Remember that Neo made a deal with him earlier?"

maybe we're on some tangent now but actually agreeing. lets see:

The interweb says that the big matrix boss at the end of part 3 was called "Deus ex Machina". Maybe it was just another manifestation of the architect? Either way, i think we can agree that it was a sentient entity who was clearly in control of those (mini-sentinals?) that were swarming around neo. That scene definitely involved full remote control of other machines.
(of course that doesnt prove that the other sentinels were remote operated, only that it's not impossible) deus ex machina is latin for "machine god", and the character was just that in the movie. it was basically the admin of the matrix itself, and also the supreme ruler of the machines in the real world.

It only threw tow bombs at ships, not a single time during the invasion of Zion. You don't use a tank or jet either to bomb a single soldier. Its anti-vehicle weaponry.

lmao give me a break. characters getting gimped by the plot, or not fighting to the best of their ability, or randomly doing the dumbest thing possible are common tropes in cinema. happens all the time. indeed we know that tow bombs are standard equipment for sentinels because they deployed them a few different times in the movies. but if the sentinels had used tow bombs during the battle of zion it wouldn't have been a battle at all, it would have been an absolute one sided massacre. no buildup. no suspense. no last minute comeback. nothing. the sentinel horde would have basically just busted in and nuked zion for the easy win. but obviously that can't happen in the actual movie, because the heroes still need to win in the end.

hell if the machines wouldn't have been neutered by the plot, they could have just sent in one or two machine ambassadors who could have vaporized zion even easier-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00TD4bXMoYw&t=2m30s
an entire machine army was never actually needed tbh, but plot restrictions and stupidity will always exist in fiction.


so it's a good thing this is a battleboard setting where the stupidity of a film's plot doesn't apply to the fanmade battles we discuss.

i assume that each fighter goes into this with basic knowledge of their opponent right? i assume that each fighter goes into this with the directive to kill their opponent right? so then explain to me why a sentinel (hyper advanced machine ai) wouldn't use the most efficient means at its disposal to accomplish its primary goal, and just throw a f*cking tow bomb ftw? that literally sounds exactly like how a machine WOULD think tbh. efficiency.

it's like giving a shoulder cannon to a predator, and then acting shocked when someone mentions them firing it in a forum battle lol.

So you are to decide how characters act, instead of the movie?

When unconstrained by plot device, yes.

We are being efficient. Like a machine. No drawn out heroic battles here where the humans can get into their APCs and nobly sacrifice themselves in a blaze of glory.

This subforum is much less frustrating if you give up arguing like a lawyer, fighting for one side, and instead debate like a philosopher, only concerned with the truth, even if it contradicts your first guess

Oh right I forgot my point: Squiddie has the tools but he doesn't have the proven talent. No evidence of problem solving and improvisation skills.

Originally posted by Thinkerer
So you are to decide how characters act, instead of the movie? dude this isn't some hyper exotic tactic i'm talking about. throwing something at the person you're trying to kill is about as basic as it gets lol.

if you have a weapon that can efficiently beat your opponent, then why wouldn't you use it in a forum fight? i'm not reinventing the wheel here.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
When unconstrained by plot device, yes.

We are being efficient. Like a machine. No drawn out heroic battles here where the humans can get into their APCs and nobly sacrifice themselves in a blaze of glory. exactly.

Anthropomorphizing the sentinels is an unrealistic powerup imho

Being coldly efficient and denying the opponent the opportunity to have a sexy noble fight scene isn't really anthropomorphism, imo - if anything, it's the reverse.

Match starts, I'd argue the machine side just wishes to end the fight asap. It can see that Doc has long range tentacles - arguably longer than it's own.

Why get into a wrestling match, within range whilst it's own tentacles are too short? It makes no sense.

Giving the sentinel the ability to improvise definitely powers it up. That's a slippery slope that justifies the argument that squiddie could use its tow bomb as a makeshift grenade, in which case squiddie wins, but what a quick unsatisfying microwave meal of a match

I don't believe that squiddie should require a scripted "1v1 battle mode" in order for it to automatically use it's laser to cut it's way free of a trap, but even that is forfeit because we only ever see it use lasers for excavation.

Originally posted by Bashar Teg
but what a quick unsatisfying microwave meal of a match


https://y.yarn.co/87e5b03c-5024-4263-8b17-ef0519c37982_text.gif

Ok, it seems some people here are having trouble articulating the real issues at play here. Let me see if i can't clear up some misconceptions.

The most contentious issue at play is the TOW Bombs, and whether or not they can play a role in the outcome of this match. Ok, so in the first Matrix movie, we see the Sentinels often have to be avoided by the Zion ships by powering down their systems and if needs be, charging an Electromagnetic Pulse device. It's demonstrated on screen that if a ship's primary systems are powered down, a Sentinel can't seem to confirm a target, even with numerous sensors at play, including visual, audio, or radar sensor sweeps. But the Machine's onboard AIs are not just idle, they are always learning we can assume. So, after incurring enough losses from this bait and EMP tactic Zion has been using for who knows how long, the machines develop the counter in question - the TOW bombs.

Now, these TOW bombs are thrown from outside the EMP range, though not necessarily outside of detection range, as demonstrated in the second movie. It wasn't necessarily clear if the Nebuchadnezzar was powered down when hit by the TOW bomb thrown at it, if it wasn't well then it should have been easy enough to detect and hit by the bomb's onboard rudimentary version of an AI (because the machines certainly wouldn't want to sacrifice fully functioning AI programs in suicide weapons, if Animatrix is anything to believe.) If the Nebuchadnezzar was powered down when the TOW bomb found it though, that changes the situation slightly, as we then have no way of knowing how it could track the ship as a target. If the TOWs had upgraded detection systems and better analysis capability, then it makes no sense why the other combat machines like the Sentinels didn't also receive the upgrade, especially considering the Sentinels are designed for combat at much closer range.

All that said, the crux of the argument is this - given what we know of these TOW bombs, can they target individual humans a like they do ships? My answer... unfortunately has to be a no. They were not designed and created to do that. They were designed as a countermeasure to the EMP. The logic doesn't follow that they would be used to target individual humans directly. Certainly humans would be killed via collateral damage and proximity to their detonations, but their primary purpose was to take out the ships. That being said, an argument COULD be made that Dr. Octopus's tentacles could have enough mass and power generation to be considered a viable target for the TOW's sensors to track, in which case, could Octopus's tentacle arms render him vulnerable to a TOW strike? I dunno, possibly. I couldn't say with any reasonable degree of certainty the tentacles provide enough mass and power to be noticable to a TOW's sensors to track as a viable target, but it's much more probable than a TOW targeting an ordinary human being with no additional mass and electrical power sources attached to their spine.

Anyway, that's my two cents, and it is still relatively speculative on my part, so you can take it with a grain of salt if you like, but I hope my words give a little more nuanced context to Thinkerer's argument and it helps.

Damn it, edit time ran out. Anyways another thing to consider, is that a Sentinel is not known for improvisation or tactical acumen. As stated by Tank and Dozer in the first movie, the Sentinels were built for one purpose - seek and destroy. That said, it does not seem likely that they would throw a TOW at a human target at the distance they were made to be thrown at, especially at a target they would have no idea was there at that range. At such a range, they can barely detect the presence of a Zion ship, and not well enough to confirm the target, hence why the TOWs had their own targeting and tracking sensors. The Sentinels essentially had to sit outside the EMP range, throw the TOWs and see if there was a ship there to hit. Thats what they were for. As for the Sentinels themselves vs a human target, they needed to confirm human presence with their visual sensors, as seen when they noticed Trinity and Neo inside the Nebuchadnezzar, and when they did their primary means of killing humans is through evisceration, or even with their lasers. they DIDN'T throw the TOWs at them directly at any point during the war, even when it would have made complete sense for them to do so, such as at the APU suits when they breached Zion's docks, and there were literally thousands of sentinels present during that assault, and all of them had plenty of room to throw the bombs. Instead, they opted to use their claws and lasers. Every single one.

if the matrix knows about doc oc, and can update squiddie's software and the tow bomb's software, squiddie wins. No need for precision, it would just be set to explode when it hits something. Or nevermind any of that. the matrix could invent some other known unknown devices to finish doc. A gatling spear gun lol whatever

If it's just squiddie from the matrix unaltered, it's dispatched easily I think. As others mention, Doc seems to have significantly longer tentacles, so there's no reason he would allow the sentinel within striking distance.

Originally posted by Bashar Teg
if the matrix knows about doc oc, and can update squiddie's software and the tow bomb's software, squiddie wins. No need for precision, it would just be set to explode when it hits something. Or nevermind any of that. the matrix could invent some other known unknown devices to finish doc. A gatling spear gun lol whatever

If it's just squiddie from the matrix unaltered, it's dispatched easily I think. As others mention, Doc seems to have significantly longer tentacles, so there's no reason he would allow the sentinel within striking distance.

I'd say that if we're altering the Sentinels so it can compete by act of fiat like that, it'd need to be stipulated in the Opening Post would it not? But yes, I would agree with both points at face value.

Also, don't forget the squiddies were *not* just built to seek and destroy. The Animatrix made clear that they were originally construction units. So Dozer and Tank weren't correct.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Also, don't forget the squiddies were *not* just built to seek and destroy. The Animatrix made clear that they were originally construction units. So Dozer and Tank weren't correct.

It doesn't alter what they were used for during and after the war though. Yes, they were partly construction units during the creation of 01, but they were either retooled for war since then, or modern Sentinels and the construction 'squiddies' are two different things. Either way, the point remains so far.

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
dude this isn't some hyper exotic tactic i'm talking about. throwing something at the person you're trying to kill is about as basic as it gets lol.

if you have a weapon that can efficiently beat your opponent, then why wouldn't you use it in a forum fight? i'm not reinventing the wheel here.

exactly.

If multiple simple ways exist to defeat an opponent, you can't just pick the one you prefer if it contradicts the movies.

Sentinels have been shown to efficiently kill humans with their tentacles, as seen during the invasion of Zion. While a bomb or laser could also be effective, it might not be the smartest option since they both use more energy and the bomb endangers them. Your argument assumes they would always fly away from Otto at the start of the fight (to be safe from the bomb effects) and then throw bombs, which is an unreasonable expectation for how they engage humanoid combatants.

The evidence suggests they are actually that limited in intelligence, as they never once used lasers or bombs against individual targets, even when hundreds were being destroyed by machine guns. They aren't independent thinkers - they are machines following a programmed directive. It makes sense that they use bombs to destroy ships from a distance while relying on their tentacles to eliminate humanoid targets up close. This is also efficient from an energy usage viewpoint.

My stance is that if a character performs an action at least once, but has many contradictory low showings, I prioritize that one instance over the weaker ones. For example, if a Sentinel had been shown using a bomb or laser from a distance on a humanoid even once - despite 100 instances where they didn't, even while being massacred for hours - I would favor that single showing. However, we don't even have that one instance here. Their programming dictates their behavior, and they have only ever used bombs against ships from a distance and lasers to cut through hulls. Again, they are not individuals making tactical choices - they follow a set program.

Originally posted by h1a8
If multiple simple ways exist to defeat an opponent, you can't just pick the one you prefer if it contradicts the movies.

Sentinels have been shown to efficiently kill humans with their tentacles, as seen during the invasion of Zion. While a bomb or laser could also be effective, it might not be the smartest option since they both use more energy and the bomb endangers them. Your argument assumes they would always fly away from Otto at the start of the fight (to be safe from the bomb effects) and then throw bombs, which is an unreasonable expectation for how they engage humanoid combatants.

The evidence suggests they are actually that limited in intelligence, as they never once used lasers or bombs against individual targets, even when hundreds were being destroyed by machine guns. They aren't independent thinkers - they are machines following a programmed directive. It makes sense that they use bombs to destroy ships from a distance while relying on their tentacles to eliminate humanoid targets up close. This is also efficient from an energy usage viewpoint.

My stance is that if a character performs an action at least once, but has many contradictory low showings, I prioritize that one instance over the weaker ones. For example, if a Sentinel had been shown using a bomb or laser from a distance on a humanoid even once - despite 100 instances where they didn't, even while being massacred for hours - I would favor that single showing. However, we don't even have that one instance here. Their programming dictates their behavior, and they have only ever used bombs against ships from a distance and lasers to cut through hulls. Again, they are not individuals making tactical choices - they follow a set program.

It is a rare thing indeed when I am in complete agreement with H1, but in this instance, he is right. Besides the in canon reasons I described earlier, H1 raises a point that we simply do not see at any point the Sentinels deploy the TOW bombs for antipersonnel duties onscreen. There's no data for us to even determine how that would work, no examples.

Now, this is not to say Doctor Octopus wins the fight, at all. His tentacles may be longer (I dunno about that) but the Sentinel is larger and faster then he is, is capable of self propelled flight, and has many many more tentacles to work with. Plus it's capable of rending ship hulls with it's physical strength. I can say that the Sentinel might actually win more often than not in a 1 on 1 physical confrontation.

I'm unswayed. Regardless of the number of tentacles, 100 * too short = too short. If you think squiddie is powerful enough to work around doc's tentacles, that's another discussion entirely, but if not...

https://i.imgur.com/OzXZcLW.gif

Originally posted by Bashar Teg
I'm unswayed. Regardless of the number of tentacles, 100 * too short = too short. If you think squiddie is powerful enough to work around doc's tentacles, that's another discussion entirely, but if not...

https://i.imgur.com/OzXZcLW.gif

Thats the thing though, I can't tell if the tentacles are that long or strong enough, or even fast enough to do what you're suggesting. It's not like the Sentinel's own tentacles are short stubby and weak.

Have a look at the size and dimensions of a Sentinel.

Now compare this to the tentacles of Doc Oc, Which extends out to roughly 13 feet according to this and the difference in length is certainly not that dramatic, especially given the Sentinel can move itself and maneuver it's tentacles very quickly, and you understand why I have my doubts.

Originally posted by Bashar Teg
It doesn't require a huge difference in lengths for this dilemma to occur. Doc tosses full size SUVs with ease, so his tentacles should obviously be respected as their own unit/fighter (with a vulnerable meat bag attached.). Not to be redundant I know this has all been said. IMHO the only way squiddie wins this is a strength feat to beat truck tossing.

I do believe them tearing through ship armored hulls, and ripping off the hover pads can easily at least match that if not exceed it in ways, as it's more difficult to rip something apart that weighs a shitload, and just picking it up and throwing it. That said, i have no way of quantifying the actual physical strength each thing would take to do, so I guess the strength feat argument is a wash?

Anyways, I did what I came in this thread to do, and explained about the TOW bombs, that was my primary reason for coming into this thread :P

^Otto's most impressive strength feat is ripping out a several-foot-thick steel vault door. This not only demonstrates an immense amount of force but also proves that his tentacles are far more durable than steel. A feat easily exceeding a hundred tons of force.

@DS0- Right, they both have freak strength. I suppose there is enough data for some braniac to do the maths. Force required to toss that model truck's weight vs the force required to rip raw plate steel. One is probably way more than the other, making one of them the obvious winner, but it won't be me doing that math

Originally posted by h1a8
^Otto's most impressive strength feat is ripping out a several-foot-thick steel vault door. This not only demonstrates an immense amount of force but also proves that his tentacles are far more durable than steel. A feat easily exceeding a hundred tons of force.

Fair enough, I guess then it comes down to whether or not the tentacles can then catch the Sentinel and destroy it fast enough before the Sentinel eviscerates the meat bag attached to those tentacles. If they can catch and destroy the Sentinel first, Oc wins. If the Sentinel manages to slip in a few eviscerating strikes before being destroyed, the Sentinel wins as Oc either bleeds out, or his organs are shredded.

Originally posted by Bashar Teg
@DS0- Right, they both have freak strength. I suppose there is enough data for some braniac to do the maths. Force required to toss that model truck's weight vs the force required to rip raw plate steel. One is probably way more than the other, making one of them the obvious winner, but it won't be me doing that math

Yeah, me neither. Aint got the werewithall for that level of investment in a vs debate anymore...

Originally posted by h1a8
If multiple simple ways exist to defeat an opponent, you can't just pick the one you prefer if it contradicts the movies.

Sentinels have been shown to efficiently kill humans with their tentacles, as seen during the invasion of Zion. While a bomb or laser could also be effective, it might not be the smartest option since they both use more energy and the bomb endangers them. Your argument assumes they would always fly away from Otto at the start of the fight (to be safe from the bomb effects) and then throw bombs, which is an unreasonable expectation for how they engage humanoid combatants.

The evidence suggests they are actually that limited in intelligence, as they never once used lasers or bombs against individual targets, even when hundreds were being destroyed by machine guns. They aren't independent thinkers - they are machines following a programmed directive. It makes sense that they use bombs to destroy ships from a distance while relying on their tentacles to eliminate humanoid targets up close. This is also efficient from an energy usage viewpoint.

My stance is that if a character performs an action at least once, but has many contradictory low showings, I prioritize that one instance over the weaker ones. For example, if a Sentinel had been shown using a bomb or laser from a distance on a humanoid even once - despite 100 instances where they didn't, even while being massacred for hours - I would favor that single showing. However, we don't even have that one instance here. Their programming dictates their behavior, and they have only ever used bombs against ships from a distance and lasers to cut through hulls. Again, they are not individuals making tactical choices - they follow a set program. sorry, but i couldn't disagree more.

the very fact that sentinels DO have tow bombs as standard equipment, but didn't use them at all during the battle of zion tells you just how much they, like so many other characters in cinema, were gimped for the sake of the plot....but thankfully that's not something we have to factor in with versus battles. plot based dipshittery doesn't apply here.

like i said earlier- if plot stupidity wouldn't have been a factor, the machines could have just sent one or two machine ambassadors into zion, and just had them nuke the entire damn thing in one fell swoop (like they did to the UN in animatrix). but of course that can't actually happen IN the movie, because neo would have never transitioned into digital jesus and saved humanity if it did.

but at the end of the day, sentinels have tow bombs (which they have deployed multiple times on screen). they have basic knowledge about ock and his abilities. they have a directive to kill him. assuming they wouldn't deploy a tow bomb for a fast and efficient victory is nonsense tbh. even if you want to argue that tow bombs "only" lock onto metallic targets or whateverthef*ck, that still obviously wouldn't be a problem because-
https://postimg.cc/R61FXCgj

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Anyways, I did what I came in this thread to do, and explained about the TOW bombs, that was my primary reason for coming into this thread :P no offense, but you didn't really mention anything new tbh.

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
no offense, but you didn't really mention anything new tbh.

It's far more than calling it PIS, which is not helpful to your case in the least. If you want to insist that what you are proposing is in any way a valid and available tactic for the Sentinel, you have to prove it with he evidence we have, and not by trying to force it through by act of artificial competence donated by yourself.

Simply stating "It's what I'd do!" is not enough. We have the benefits of hindsight for one thing, and two, as we are humans who can think outside the bounds of programming and logic, we would be able to consider that as a viable tactic. The Sentinels would not, because they are not designed and programmed to consider using a weapon outside it's designated purpose. If they did, they'd be more inclined to go for saturation bombardment. Why throw just one TOW bomb to destroy a target they can't detect at range? Would it not be more sufficient to throw 10? Or a hundred? Hell they even tried that later when Neo and Trinity approached 01's defense line, and the defense armada opened up with an entire bombardment of TOW bombs fired from tube launchers by the hundreds to take them down. And even that failed to do what your suggesting, because Trinity died due to secondary environmental hazard, and Neo survived to go on to speak to Deus Ex Machina.

In other words, this entire tangent not only serves you no purpose other than to argue in circles about an ultimately irrelevant tactic, your argument has no legs to stand on in any way beyond you wanting us to accept that you were right. So, instead of trying to force people to side with you, try discussing a tactic for the Sentinels that could yield a victory that doesn't defy logic, and the evidence we do have?

I'm sorry if this looks like I'm trying to pick a fight, in all honesty, I'm not, but being told I contributed nothing new to the thread when clearly explaining the function and purpose of the very thing you're arguing about to explain the possibilities of why it wouldn't work like you think it does is not a nothing burger.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Hell they even tried that later when Neo and Trinity approached 01's defense line, and the defense armada opened up with an entire bombardment of TOW bombs fired from tube launchers by the hundreds to take them down.

That's a good point.

It shows the machines have the ability to consider launching bombs at humans as a a legit tactic. Multiple bombs, even.

Also, I thought the whole point of the tow bombs was PRECISELY because of the issue that everyone is pointing out here i.e. that they lack the range of their opponent. The EMP would take out a Squiddie long before it could use its laser/tentacles; hence, they use tow bombs.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
That's a good point.

It shows the machines have the ability to consider launching bombs at humans as a a legit tactic. Multiple bombs, even.

Also, I thought the whole point of the tow bombs was PRECISELY because of the issue that everyone is pointing out here i.e. that they lack the range of their opponent. The EMP would take out a Squiddie long before it could use its laser/tentacles; hence, they use tow bombs.

You missed the very crucial crux of my point. They were still flying a ship when the defense line fired on them.

sGTSuo9cIDI

Again, this proves the TOW bombs were not meant for antipersonnel duties. They were never fired at individual humans, not even once.

For those of you having trouble with the video in forum, a link to the video directly for you here.

So basically the sentinels all carry tow bombs, but only use them to blow up ships *parked ships. I'm not being facetious, just pointing out that the matrix isn't as well written as everyone says.

I think Squiddy loses all the battles because Neo's plot armor gimped him.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
You missed the very crucial crux of my point. They were still flying a ship when the defense line fired on them.

sGTSuo9cIDI

Again, this proves the TOW bombs were not meant for antipersonnel duties. They were never fired at individual humans, not even once.

For those of you having trouble with the video in forum, a link to the video directly for you here.

You think they weren't trying to target Neo specifically, and just launch hundreds/thousands of bombs over the entire area everytime a ship approaches?

I saw it as the machines recognising he was a threat, and launching the bombs at a distance to stop him as soon as they could. Neo being Neo, just handwaves them away.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
You think they weren't trying to target Neo specifically, and just launch hundreds/thousands of bombs over the entire area everytime a ship approaches?

I saw it as the machines recognising he was a threat, and launching the bombs at a distance to stop him as soon as they could. Neo being Neo, just handwaves them away.

Why the hell would they know Neo was on that ship? The only machine AI that would have had any sort of notion Neo was on his way to 01, was Smith, a literal virus by that point and in no way on speaking terms with any other machine. So yes, that tells me that the machines would launch that many projectiles at an approaching human ship that is coming towards their capital for unknown purposes and no way of detecting who is specifically piloting it, because that's precisely what they did.

Why would we now assume they knew Neo was aboard with no way to prove it? Would they recognize that Neo was aboard after the handwave? Possibly. But if they knew Neo was still alive, especially after the crash and Trinity was dead, and could track him that easily, why would they not have sentinels to the crash site immediately while he was trying to save Trinity, or mourning over her corpse? They had plenty of time to get to him before he reached the Deus Ex. There's no reason to assume that they could detect Neo individually until he was within actual visual range.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Why the hell would they know Neo was on that ship? The only machine AI that would have had any sort of notion Neo was on his way to 01, was Smith, a literal virus by that point and in no way on speaking terms with any other machine. So yes, that tells me that the machines would launch that many projectiles at an approaching human ship that is coming towards their capital for unknown purposes and no way of detecting who is specifically piloting it, because that's precisely what they did.

Why would we now assume they knew Neo was aboard with no way to prove it? Would they recognize that Neo was aboard after the handwave? Possibly. But if they knew Neo was still alive, especially after the crash and Trinity was dead, and could track him that easily, why would they not have sentinels to the crash site immediately while he was trying to save Trinity, or mourning over her corpse? They had plenty of time to get to him before he reached the Deus Ex. There's no reason to assume that they could detect Neo individually until he was within actual visual range.

Why would they do such a thing??

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Why would they do such a thing??

When multiple reasonable explanations exist, the most reasonable one (assuming not an opinion) still isn't proof - just evidence to consider.

Regardless, it's irrelevant since they were in a ship at the time, which is the core point of the original argument.

Btw why would the Sentinel have knowledge of Doc?