Naturalism v. Theism

Started by ushomefree4 pagesPoll

Which context do you think supports phenomena we observe?

Naturalism v. Theism

Which Context Best Explains The Phenomena We Observe?

1) Theistic context

2) Naturalistic context

(Self-)conciousness exists.

1) God is supremely self-aware/-concious.

2) The universe was produced by mindless, non-concious processes.

Personal beings exist.

1) God is a personal Being.

2) The universe was produced by impersonal processes.

We believe we make free personal decisions/choices, assuming humans are accountable for their actions.

1) God is spirit and a free Being, who can freely choose to act (e.g., to create or not).

2) We have emerged by material, deterministic processes and forces beyond our control.

Secondary qualities (colors, smells, sounds, tastes, textures) exist throughout the world.

1) God is joyful, and secondary qualities make the world pleasurable and joyful to His creatures.

2) The universe was produced from colorless, odorless, soundless, tasteless, textureless particles and processes.

We trust our senses and rational faculties as generally reliable in producing true beliefs.

1) A God of truth and rationality exists.

2) Because of our impulse to survive and reproduce, our beliefs would only help us survive, but a number of these could be completely false.

Human beings have intrinsic value/dignity and rights.

1) God is the supremely valuable Being.

2) Human beings were produced by valueless processes.

Objective moral values exist.

1) God's character is the source of goodness/moral values.

2) The universe was produced by non-moral processes.

The universe began to exist a finite time ago—without previously existing matter, energy, space or time.

1) A powerful, previously-existing God brought the universe into being without any pre-existing material. (Something emerges from something.)

2) The universe came into existence from nothing by nothing—or was, perhaps, self-caused. (Something comes from nothing.)

The universe is finely-tuned for human life (known as "the Goldilocks effect"—the universe is "just right" for life).

1) God is a wise, intelligent Designer.

2) All the cosmos constants just happened to be right; given enough time and/or many possible worlds, a finely-tuned world eventually emerged.

First life emerged.

1) God is a living, active Being.

2) Life somehow emerged from non-living matter.

Beauty exists (e.g., not only in landscapes and sunsets but in "elegant" or "beautiful" scientific theories).

1) God is beautiful and capable of creating beautiful things according to His pleasure.

2) Beauty in the natural world is superabundant and in many case superfluous (often not linked to survival).

We (tend) to believe that life has purpose and meaning. For most of us, life is worth living.

1) God has created/designed us for certain purposes (to love Him, others, etc.); when we live them out, our lives find meaning/enrichment.

2) There is no cosmic purpose, blueprint, or goal for human existence.

Real evils—both moral and natural—exist/take place in the world.

1) Evil's definition assumes a design plan (how things ought to be, but are not) or standard of goodness (a corruption or absence of goodness), by which we judge something to be evil. God is a good Designer; His existence supplies the crucial moral context to make sense of evil.

2) Atrocities, pain, and suffering just happen. This is just how things are—with no "plan" or standard of goodness to which things ought to conform.

Do i have to take you down point by point?

I thought it was quite good...sort of...Aquinas ...

*ahem* false dualism.

I implore you to go on, point by point. 🙂

Alliance summed it up well. I could "side" with some of those, but usually they'd have to be amended with more information, since the dichotomies he presents are needlessly dualistic. Life is rarely an either/or situation, and to perceive it as such is harmful and divisive.

I disagree, in these examples the base level is always this or that.

The universe is finely-tuned for human life (known as "the Goldilocks effect"—the universe is "just right" for life).

Bar that one actually....and some others.

Originally posted by Alliance
Do i have to take you down point by point?
I love you.

Originally posted by lord xyz
I love you.

Lets not reward arrogance, even if an argument is filled with contradictions and flaws its still expected for someone to respond to it with an argument of their own.

No marks are given for one line responses. EVER!

Theistic concept is subjective.

Originally posted by Fire Ninja
Theistic concept is subjective.
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
No marks are given for one line responses. EVER!
Originally posted by Alliance
*ahem* false dualism.

Why is it false?

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
Why is it false?

Exactly, you can't just make a statement, even if its true you have to qualify what your saying!

Naturalism is clearly a wiser prospect... It moves forward, not backwards like theism.

Originally posted by Mark Question
Naturalism is clearly a wiser prospect... It moves forward, not backwards like theism.

Go on...

Originally posted by lord xyz
I love you.

LOL

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Lets not reward arrogance, even if an argument is filled with contradictions and flaws its still expected for someone to respond to it with an argument of their own.

No marks are given for one line responses. EVER!

I award appropiate ridicule. It's accurate, short and to the point.

Also, that was more of a joke, seein as he was being arrogant, me "loving" him is, in effect, ridiculing him back with praise he was aiming for.

Take my post either of the two ways, DON'T see me as a cheerleader debator. I don't like that.

Then stop cheerleading.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
Why is it false?

Because it prevents dumbed down and absolutist views of "naturalism" and "theism" that aren't even actually relevant in society.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
I implore you to go on, point by point. 🙂

It simply extends to the language being used, the order in which things are presented, the two-year-old size 5 font and blue text, etc. Besides, knowing ush, he just copied and pasted them of some website he thinks was written by god.

For example, if this was actually non-biased the responses might actually reflect the questions being asked. Fabulous example:

Originally posted by ushomefree
[(Self-)conciousness exists.

1) God is supremely self-aware/-concious.

2) The universe was produced by mindless, non-concious processes.

To the "theist point" How is a god being conscious reflective in any way of man's consciousness?

To the "naturalist" point How can a process be wither conscious or nonconcess, they're not beings, just actions. Thus, words like "mindless" are just subtext saying "this answer is bad and you should not choose it"

Originally posted by ushomefree
Human beings have intrinsic value/dignity and rights.

1) God is the supremely valuable Being.

2) Human beings were produced by valueless processes.[/b]

Again...what does God being valuable have to do with us. I could just as naievely write "God is supremely valuble so you are worth sh*t"

as to #2, how does a "valueless" process impart in any way "valueless" on man? It doesn't its just a crock.

[

Originally posted by ushomefree
The universe is finely-tuned for human life (known as "the Goldilocks effect"—the universe is "just right" for life).

1) God is a wise, intelligent Designer.

2) All the cosmos constants just happened to be right; given enough time and/or many possible worlds, a finely-tuned world eventually emerged.[/B]

Again...#1since when does theism imply intelligent design? Since never.

#2..."just happend" makes is sound *gasp* illogical! Just like "God siad so". The problem is that naturalism doesn't imply happenstance, it simply implies the lack of active processses.

I can go on and on with these.
Besides...how many of you're posts in this thread are one liners?

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
I thought it was quite good...sort of...Aquinas ...
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
I disagree, in these examples the base level is always this or that.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Bar that one actually....and some others.
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Exactly, you can't just make a statement, even if its true you have to qualify what your saying!

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Then stop cheerleading.