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That's pretty interesting, I also noticed it seemed like Marka Ragnos (not his spirit)might have traveled through time to be there. I always thought it was his spirit but he says "You of the future he me well" and "In my time,even as the galactic republic battles us to extinction we now secure the future, when the sith will take their revenge. " I think that is a pretty interesting choice of words to say if his spirit was still awake though he might be saying that because it was his first reawakening since his spirit appears before Naga and Ludo. Thanks for bringing this up, I certainly will look for more info on this.

EDIT:Pyron can you post a scan of the scene right before this?

http://www.snapdrive.net/files/532407/Ragnos3.jpg

There ya go.

Your time-travel idea does have some merit actually. We see Ragnos' face and it's not Force Spirit-y at all.

I like how he is just telling Ulic and Exar to stop like two little kid bitches. Then they spend the whole time gawking at him while he lays down the law.

http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/1897/ragnos3fd9.jpg

It is also interesting because I reread parts of the DLOTS and the tomb that Kun/s most likely visits is Ragnos's. And on another note than we see what very well could be Ragnos's spirit talking to Nadd's spirit and telling Nadd that Kun is ready/worthy. So that is also interesting because Ragnos's spirit still can communicate without have to being revived/powered up (or called upon by the amulets) like he was in DLOTS and Jedi Academy game.

Maybe he's like an especially powerful spirit? I dunno.
What I find most interesting is the fact Ragnos is not Force Spirit-ish in there. It helps your time travel theory I think.

Woops, my bad he did receive force energy from the scepter in the jedi academy game.

Yeah. That game was Fail though. I wish it was retconned out of existence but apparently Jaden cameos or something in LOTF.

Guys, it's an amulet and like sith holocrons, it has properties such as foretelling future events. Naga Sadow's sith holocron stated that the dark lord eluded Teta's pursuit and escaped to Yavin IV. The problem is, the holocron was aboard one of the ships above koros major, so how did the holocron explain Sadow's escape? I'm guessing that powerful sith spirits such as Ragnos are tied to certain sith holocrons and amulets. The more likely scenario is that Ragnos had predicted events 1,000 years in the future as Kun and Ulic would recover the amulets, and had recorded for that benefit.

Well, my original point was that it appeared Ragnos still "powered up" Exar and Ulic.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Guys, it's an amulet and like sith holocrons, it has properties such as foretelling future events. Naga Sadow's sith holocron stated that the dark lord eluded Teta's pursuit and escaped to Yavin IV. The problem is, the holocron was aboard one of the ships above koros major, so how did the holocron explain Sadow's escape? I'm guessing that powerful sith spirits such as Ragnos are tied to certain sith holocrons and amulets. The more likely scenario is that Ragnos had predicted events 1,000 years in the future as Kun and Ulic would recover the amulets, and had recorded for that benefit.

I would agree, but what is still kind of strange is that Ragnos doesn't look like a spirit at all...

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Yeah. That game was Fail though. I wish it was retconned out of existence but apparently Jaden cameos or something in LOTF.

I love that game. I like how Ragnos is all "Rahh! I'll destroy you puny jedi" then summarily gets his s*** kicked in by the player character (in this case Jaden Korr).

Yeah it was Tavion's body he was possessing but for me it was a sweet moment in the EU and raises some questions and probably brings some perspective into this overused power level nonsense.

Translation: it allows you to hate on the Ancient Sith as you did in the Ulic/Exile thread.

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Translation: it allows you to hate on the Ancient Sith as you did in the Ulic/Exile thread.

I don't hate on the ancients; I think they're overrated by some people, but I certainly don't hate them. Ignoring all that I played JA the 1st time sometime in 2003 (beginning of 04 I'm not sure) - trust me - I had no opinion on the ancient Sith then, but it felt good beating up ancient Sith back into oblivion.

Originally posted by Allankles
I don't hate on the ancients; I think they're overrated by some people, but I certainly don't hate them. Ignoring all that I played JA the 1st time sometime in 2003 (beginning of 04 I'm not sure) - trust me - I had no opinion on the ancient Sith then, but it felt good beating up ancient Sith back into oblivion.

No no, you hate the ancient sith and you provide awful arguments against them.. And the JA argument is ridiculous considering Ragnos' power was limited by Tavion's body, so Jaden defeated Tavion with some assistance from Ragnos. We all saw what happens when Ragnos got mad. His spirit wtfpwned Tavion.

We also have Luke stating that it would take the entire Jedi Order to stop Ragnos if he were to be resurrected...

Originally posted by Faunus
We also have Luke stating that it would take the entire Jedi Order to stop Ragnos if he were to be resurrected...

...Didn't he also say that he has no real idea of what Ragnos might be capable of? Or am I dreaming this up?

I don't think so - at least, not like that - but it's been a while.

Originally posted by Faunus
I don't think so - at least, not like that - but it's been a while.

I'm pretty damn sure that something to that effect was said, given I recall Lightsnake and Advent bringing it up. I must consult with the oracle!

In other words, the game?

Originally posted by Lt. Valerian
In other words, the game?

Quiet! They might figure it out...

*figures it out*

Witch!

OMG! The Oracle has been discovered! *jumps out the window*

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
No no, you hate the ancient sith and you provide awful arguments against them.. And the JA argument is ridiculous considering Ragnos' power was limited by Tavion's body, so Jaden defeated Tavion with some assistance from Ragnos. We all saw what happens when Ragnos got mad. His spirit wtfpwned Tavion.

Wtfpwned Tavion? If you're referring to her death because of Dark side poisoning, that doesn't change the fact that Jaden pwned Ragnos. I've argued over this before. Tavion by herself was good enough to test Jaden, her size/strength would not have been much of a factor as she was decently powerful force sensitive herself.

Ragnos inability to defeat Jaden is a testament to Jaden's ability. Afterall, Ragnos still had his skills and he likely strengthened Tavion's body with the dark side. Notice how infuriated Ragnos gets, he couldn't believe he was beat.


This is irrelevant to the point I was making though. Back when I had JA in my collection I didn't give a damn about ancient Sith or their power levels, that only happened around the time I joined KMC. My enjoyment at kicking Ragnos Sith butt had nothing to do with any opinion I had on ancient Sith, and everything to do with the fact that I beat a supposedly awesome villain.

Originally posted by Allankles
Wtfpwned Tavion? If you're referring to her death because of Dark side poisoning, that doesn't change the fact that Jaden pwned Ragnos. I've argued over this before. Tavion by herself was good enough to test Jaden, her size/strength would not have been much of a factor as she was decently powerful force sensitive herself.
Death by darkside poisioning? Wow, you've just made my case for me, thanks. And it was the fact that she couldn't withstand Ragnos' corruption. If you're going to lie, make sure neither of us have played the game. Jaden didn't pwn Ragnos. Jade pwned Tavion with some help from Ragnos, whose abilities were severely limited by Tavion's body and force mastery.


Or it's a testament to Tavion's weakness seeing as how Ragnos was a powerless force ghost who was summoned by his scepter.



Except you have proven time and time again (with your ridiculous arguments), how much you dislike the ancient sith.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Death by darkside poisioning? Wow, you've just made my case for me, thanks. And it was the fact that she couldn't withstand Ragnos' corruption. If you're going to lie, make sure neither of us have played the game. Jaden didn't pwn Ragnos. Jade pwned Tavion with some help from Ragnos, whose abilities were severely limited by Tavion's body and force mastery.

That's what I'm referring to as poisoning. Her body was worn out by the Darkside energy she absorbed as a result of Ragnos' possession. How does the use of the word "poisoning" not make it clear that I was referring to her ds corruption? Jaden explains as much to Kyle and Luke after the fight.

Arguing for nothing. Do you just have a ridiculous tendency to be argumentative even when there are no grounds for an argument?


Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Or it's a testament to Tavion's weakness seeing as how Ragnos was a powerless force ghost who was summoned by his scepter.

Yes, the argument can work both ways. I say it's a testament to Jaden's talent and prowess that he beats Ragnos even after defeating Tavion in a previous battle and potentially several other dark Jedi.



Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Except you have proven time and time again (with your ridiculous arguments), how much you dislike the ancient sith.

Except nothing. I don't share your opinion on the ancient Sith, but I also don't care enough about them either way to dislike them. I like Jedi like Ulic as a character (mostly after he'd become broken), I thought there was some depth there that other characters portrayed in that period lacked. I personally never felt he was meant be some big powerhouse monster.

I also liked the Exile as a character because the creators gave her some depth, in both cases the creators were clearly more concerned with a compelling plot than with power levels and other juvenile ideas.

To cut this short, my opinion on the ancient Sith has never been driven by any kind of dislike on my part, but more to do with their actual abilities in the context of singles combat (of which there is very little or unconvincing evidence).

Originally posted by Allankles
That's what I'm referring to as poisoning. Her body was worn out by the Darkside energy she absorbed as a result of Ragnos' possession. How does the use of the word "poisoning" not make it clear that I was referring to her ds corruption? Jaden explains as much to Kyle and Luke after the fight.
You're purposely using words that don't give Ragnos the credit. It was Ragnos' great power that was too much for Tavion, not "poisoning".



Yea, the good old days when your "exile is a powerhouse!!" arguments were destroyed..

Yeah, that's why the plot was disturbingly horrible, and you could reach incredibly high power levels...

The Exile is a powerhouse. Unfortunately, a powerhouse with too few feats to even suggest she could beat Ulic.

Kinda like Ragnos himself except he's cooler than the Exile.

The Exiles a f*uckin' beast, she'd pwn Ulric!!!

And I kinda liked the plot, It's basically just 'kill every jedi you can find'. What could be more fun?

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
The Exile is a powerhouse. Unfortunately, a powerhouse with too few feats to even suggest she could beat Ulic.

Kinda like Ragnos himself except he's cooler than the Exile.

No Nikkolas, the exile is not a powerhouse, nor comparable to Ragnos. She's an average Jedi with 1 innate ability and nothing suggests otherwise.

Shut up Tdtd. Your fanboyism is not needed here.

Your claims of the Exile being an average Jedi are the saddest argument since Nebaris claimed Krayt can beat Yoda.

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Shut up Tdtd. Your fanboyism is not needed here.

Your claims of the Exile being an average Jedi are the saddest argument since Nebaris claimed Krayt can beat Yoda.


And yet you're still on here embarassing yourself after denying your identity like an idiot. And this coming from someone who has yet to make any cogent arguments here, can we say hypocrite? Your pitiful arguments on the exile were defeated time and time again, which is why you ran away like a little girl.. Seriously, stop embarassing yourself. Go back to EOD and complain about me like the little ***** that you are.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You're purposely using words that don't give Ragnos the credit. It was Ragnos' great power that was too much for Tavion, not "poisoning".

I wasn't discrediting Ragnos. Mentioning that Tavion's body was poisoned by Ragnos' dark side energy is enough.

This is pointless, it doesn't change the fact that he got his butt kicked by the prodigous Jaden Korr, in a game I enjoyed a few years back.



Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Yea, the good old days when your "exile is a powerhouse!!" arguments were destroyed..

There's no denying she was a powerhouse in her era. Secondly, I only remember arguing for the Exile against Ulic.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
And yet you're still on here embarassing yourself after denying your identity like an idiot. And this coming from someone who has yet to make any cogent arguments here, can we say hypocrite? Your pitiful arguments on the exile were defeated time and time again, which is why you ran away like a little girl.. Seriously, stop embarassing yourself. Go back to EOD and complain about me like the little ***** that you are.

But he has a point your argument that the Exile is average would almost be as ridiculous as arguing that Kotor 1 Revan is average.

In terms of achievements (combat feats especially) and the abilities she posses as a result of being a 'wound' and forming force bonds with ease, make her anything but average but we've had this arguments in the past; no need to beat a dead horse.

Originally posted by Allankles
I wasn't discrediting Ragnos. Mentioning that Tavion's body was poisoned by Ragnos' dark side energy is enough.

This is pointless, it doesn't change the fact that he got his butt kicked by the prodigous Jaden Korr, in a game I enjoyed a few years back.
Except he didn't, seeing as he was a powerless spirit who was called back by his scepter.






If by her era you mean KOTOR II then sure. Other than that, she's an average jedi.

Originally posted by Allankles
But he has a point your argument that the Exile is average would almost be as ridiculous as arguing that Kotor 1 Revan is average.
Except the argument that the exile is above average has been destroyed countless times. If you want to agree with someone, make sure it's not an incompetent troll.


You're right, and each time your argument was destroyed, you came back for more. Being a wound in the force and having 1 innate ability doesn't make you a powerhoues. She's average, get over it.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Except the argument that the exile is above average has been destroyed countless times. If you want to agree with someone, make sure it's not an incompetent troll.]

Destroyed by what brilliant argument? That you actually believe this bs is what's destructive. You don't even know the definition of an average Jedi. Next thing you'll be saying is that Obi Wan is average. An average Jedi is someone like Juhani. Even Bastilla wouldn't exactly qualify as average, her BM and the fact that she was sent out to lead a strike team to capture Revan suggest she was a little more than average.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You're right, and each time your argument was destroyed, you came back for more. Being a wound in the force and having 1 innate ability doesn't make you a powerhoues. She's average, get over it.

All you did in that thread is exactly what you're doing now. Make sweeping statements that don't even put the Exile's abilities in perspective. Not many Jedi in the mythos have accomplished what the Exile did, and not many have the Exile's potential either.

Her wound in the force and a her ability to form force bonds (ignoring her skills) were precisely why she was one of the best in her era. Even Mandalore called her an equal to Revan, admitting that he never thought he would see a Jedi that could be comparable to Revan.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Except he didn't, seeing as he was a powerless spirit who was called back by his scepter.

Now he's powerless? What happened to the powerful Ragnos you mentioned earlier that was too powerful for Tavion's body to contain? Ignoring that Ragnos was infused by an unknown amount of Dark side energy via the sceptre. Dark side energy that had been siphoned from dark side worlds and places, so he wasn't powerless (unless you want to ignore that he got an amount of dark side energy).






IOriginally posted by Darth Sexy
f by her era you mean KOTOR II then sure.

Kotor 2 is not an era it's a short period in time. By era I mean post Sith war to Shadow war era. In the mythos she's up there with Revan as the best of that particular era.

Originally posted by Allankles
Destroyed by what brilliant argument? That you actually believe this bs is what's destructive. You don't even know the definition of an average Jedi. Next thing you'll be saying is that Obi Wan is average. An average Jedi is someone like Juhani. Even Bastilla wouldn't exactly qualify as average, her BM and the fact that she was sent out to lead a strike team to capture Revan suggest she was a little more than average.
No, Obiwan wasn't an average Jedi. Bastilla was an average jedi with one innate ability, as was the exile. Having ONE abiltiy and NOTHING else under your belt doesn't make you anything special.




Except accomplishments=/=power, and you can't guage the Exile's potential which is what you're trying to do.


Show me where Mandalore called her Revan's equal in terms of power...

Originally posted by Allankles
Now he's powerless? What happened to the powerful Ragnos you mentioned earlier that was too powerful for Tavion's body to contain? Ignoring that Ragnos was infused by an unknown amount of Dark side energy via the sceptre. Dark side energy that had been siphoned from dark side worlds and places, so he wasn't powerless (unless you want to ignore that he got an amount of dark side energy).
Powerless for offensive maneuvers. Powerless to make any effect on the fight. Obviously when he enters another's body, it's his dark side aura mixed with Tavion's. He was powerless unless you can prove otherwise. Nothing suggests he had any ability to do anything other than enter Tavion and fight through her, nevermind the fact that if he did have any ability, it would be severely hindered by Tavion's weak dark side abilities.






I


This is nothing but your opinion and has never been proven because it's a ridiculous claim.

Considering she's gone off to fight the True Sith with Revan, it seems very unlikely she's vastly weaker than him like you claim repeatedly.

But really, you're both biased and I'm not taking anyone's side here because I disagree with both of you.

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Considering she's gone off to fight the True Sith with Revan, it seems very unlikely she's vastly weaker than him like you claim repeatedly.
Your point is moot, considering we have no evidence of what the Exile went to do. Even so, attempting to go fight the true sith has absolutely nothing to do with power, nor does that put her anywhere near Revan.



Except we have proof of Revan's superiority and we have no proof of the Exile being any kind of a powerhouse.

But her list of accomplishments speak for themselves. Technically speaking, and I've counted this, The Exile has killed more Sith than anyone, ever. In the whole of history.
There's also the fact that she beat a definate powerhouse, Kreia without any out side help. Said powerhouse also even admitted that the Exile was better than Revan, and I see no reson for her to lie.
And ONE ability, what the hell are you on!!! The Exile could learn every high end, barring instakills, techniques there are. And she could either learn Force crush (which has only been shown by high-enders like Vader and Windu) or Force Enlightenment, which no one else has shown. Not to mention that that 'one' ability that you talk about gives her unlimited potential, that she draws power from people around her and for her kills. But 'obviously' that ability sucks doesn't it. Who needs unlimited potential.



Where?

BTW, could someone define powerhouse, so I can adaquately fit the Exile in the definition.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
But her list of accomplishments speak for themselves. Technically speaking, and I've counted this, The Exile has killed more Sith than anyone, ever. In the whole of history.You people get dumber by the day, apparently.

Good job wasting your life away counting the number of Sith you fought in the game (which is probably a lie); it means absolutely nothing, because it's gameplay that changes every single time you play it. And again, if we're going by this kind of bullshit logic, Jaden Korr >>>> everybody.

Originally posted by Faunus
You people get dumber by the day, apparently.

Good job wasting your life away counting the number of Sith you fought in the game (which is probably a lie); it means absolutely nothing, because it's gameplay that changes every single time you play it. And again, if we're going by this kind of bullshit logic, Jaden Korr >>>> everybody.

ahahaha

Obviously I didn't bloody well count every sith in the game, I mearly guessed. Mabye I exaggerated when I said that I'd counted, but well, sue me. What I meant was that The Exile has killed ALOT of Sith. Including: The Sith assassins on Paragus, The Sith on Korriban (about 2 with Sion, more in the cave but may not count), The sith on Onderon, The sith on Telos, The Sith on the Ravager, the sith on Malachor V, Atris, Nihilus, Sion and Traya. What I'm trying to say is that no average person could ever stack up such a huge kill count, and that it shows her extraordinary battle prowess.
BTW, I don't relly know much about Jaden because I don't have that game, so your taunts are useless.

Anyway, this has gotten Way of topic so I think we should either agree to diasagree or you can just submit.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Obviously I didn't bloody well count every sith in the game, I mearly guessed. Mabye I exaggerated when I said that I'd counted, but well, sue me. What I meant was that The Exile has killed ALOT of Sith. Including: The Sith assassins on Paragus, The Sith on Korriban (about 2 with Sion, more in the cave but may not count), The sith on Onderon, The sith on Telos, The Sith on the Ravager, the sith on Malachor V, Atris, Nihilus, Sion and Traya. What I'm trying to say is that no average person could ever stack up such a huge kill count, and that it shows her extraordinary battle prowess.
BTW, I don't relly know much about Jaden because I don't have that game, so your taunts are useless.

Anyway, this has gotten Way of topic so I think we should either agree to diasagree or you can just submit.

Why would anyone submit when you have no argument?

Why do you speak when you clearly have no brain?

Coming from a constant troll of this forum who offers nothing intelligent to the debates, I find your insults absolutely hilarious.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Why do you speak when you clearly have no brain?

How can you speak if you have no brain?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
No, Obiwan wasn't an average Jedi. Bastilla was an average jedi with one innate ability, as was the exile. Having ONE abiltiy and NOTHING else under your belt doesn't make you anything special.

I already told you we've handled this before and all you gave in return were sweeping statements that demonstrated your lack of maturity. Bastilla isn't exactly average. The mere idea that she was sent to capture Revan and her powerful BM make her more than an average Jedi.

Now her powers in the force might have been average, but she was more than an average member of the Jedi order. Your inability to think in broad terms is your failing. Extend this broadness of thought to the Exile and it is quite clear that the word "average" is not nearly an accurate description for the Jedi Exile.




Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Except accomplishments=/=power, and you can't guage the Exile's potential which is what you're trying to do.

Not surprising that you'd make general statements that aren't even related to what I'm saying. The Exile had great potential (thanks to her inate gifts and her wound), I'm not even trying to gauge the Exile's power/potential. I don't believe there's enough evidence for the Exile and Revan to clearly make the distinction of who has greater ability - given that they accomplished similar feats and were described metaphorically as having opposite force auras. I don't give a damn about assumed power levels.


Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Show me where Mandalore called her Revan's equal in terms of power...

Mandalore: "I thought that Revan was a singular Jedi, but now there's you . With our martial training, battles and ethics, even our greatest warriors are no match for you ."


Mandalore compared them as warriors, so it's fair to say he considered the Exile, Revan's equal in combat. The problem is is that I've got supporting evidence and you've got nothing but your opinions on power levels.

double post.

Great post Allankes!!! (non-sarcastic)

However, I'd like to point out that there is evidence to surgest that Bastila was powerful forcewise too. I believe that when she talks of her induction into the order, bastila uses the words,' I was found to have strong force potential'. I also seem to recall that she believed herself to be stronger with the force than several masters of the time.
I'd also like to point out that:

a) She could keep up with Revan and gave her a tough battle, twice
b) She effortlessly stunned two of the most powerful jedi of the time (assumed)
c) She gained great darkside powers in a relatively short period of time
d) She was able to resist Malaks tortures longer than any other (can't remember where I heard this, but seems credible)
e) Out of all the Sith in Malaks order she was the one chosen as his apprentice, indicating that She was the most powerful. This is backed up by the Sith teaching that only the strongest should rule.

Originally posted by Allankles
I already told you we've handled this before and all you gave in return were sweeping statements that demonstrated your lack of maturity. Bastilla isn't exactly average. The mere idea that she was sent to capture Revan and her powerful BM make her more than an average Jedi.
She was sent because of her BM abilities. NOTHING makes her a powerhouse. Being adept at BM doesn't make you powerful.


YOU claimed she was a powerhouse as was the Exile, and you were clearly talking about power. Now you are talking about a place in the jedi order? I don't think you lack reasoning skills so it's funny when you're sitting here trying to point out my inconsistencies. So sorry, but the exile is just "AVERAGE" in terms of power. We aren't debating her influence so stop playing stupid, or stop arguing.







Not surprising your argument was pwned time and time again. You don't know anything about the exile's potential, and her "innate" gifts were only due to her being a wound in the force. You sure as hell have been arguing the exile's power so you look ridiculous now that you're talking about something else. There is enough evidence to establish Revan's superiority over the exile, you're just not that bright.





So Mandalore puts her in his league. Whoopty doo, this says what exactly?




No, you have 1 man's opinion, while we have sources detailing Revan's power. So as usual, you lose.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Great post Allankes!!! (non-sarcastic)

However, I'd like to point out that there is evidence to surgest that Bastila was powerful forcewise too. I believe that when she talks of her induction into the order, bastila uses the words,' I was found to have strong force potential'. I also seem to recall that she believed herself to be stronger with the force than several masters of the time.
I'd also like to point out that:

a) She could keep up with Revan and gave her a tough battle, twice
b) She effortlessly stunned two of the most powerful jedi of the time (assumed)
c) She gained great darkside powers in a relatively short period of time
d) She was able to resist Malaks tortures longer than any other (can't remember where I heard this, but seems credible)
e) Out of all the Sith in Malaks order she was the one chosen as his apprentice, indicating that She was the most powerful. This is backed up by the Sith teaching that only the strongest should rule.

One hell of a pitiful argument. Too many flaws to even go into

Perhaps Malak saw her affinity with battle meditation as too grand of an opportunity to pass up?

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Great post Allankes!!! (non-sarcastic)

However, I'd like to point out that there is evidence to surgest that Bastila was powerful forcewise too. I believe that when she talks of her induction into the order, bastila uses the words,' I was found to have strong force potential'. I also seem to recall that she believed herself to be stronger with the force than several masters of the time.
I'd also like to point out that:

a) She could keep up with Revan and gave her a tough battle, twice
b) She effortlessly stunned two of the most powerful jedi of the time (assumed)
c) She gained great darkside powers in a relatively short period of time
d) She was able to resist Malaks tortures longer than any other (can't remember where I heard this, but seems credible)
e) Out of all the Sith in Malaks order she was the one chosen as his apprentice, indicating that She was the most powerful. This is backed up by the Sith teaching that only the strongest should rule.

I'm sorry, but as Gideon has already pointed out, the only logical explanation as to why Malak chose the annoying, foolish Bastila as his apprentice was because of her impressive Battle Meditation ability.

The points you provided are, therefore, irrelevant.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
She was sent because of her BM abilities. NOTHING makes her a powerhouse. Being adept at BM doesn't make you powerful.

How was her BM going to help with destroying dark Jedi and Sith troops on Revan's flagship? How was it going to help - in succesfully capturing the Dark Lord Revan? Might it be that outside the masters she might have been the best they had? Implying that she wasn't exactly average?


Originally posted by Darth Sexy
B]YOU claimed she was a powerhouse as was the Exile, and you were clearly talking about power. Now you are talking about a place in the jedi order? I don't think you lack reasoning skills so it's funny when you're sitting here trying to point out my inconsistencies. So sorry, but the exile is just "AVERAGE" in terms of power. We aren't debating her influence so stop playing stupid, or stop arguing.


You use assumed power levels I don't. My point was simply that when you think in broad terms Bastila is not exactly average. I don't think Bastila was a powerhouse, but "above average" is not synonymous with "powerhouse". And I didn't mean merely her place in the Jedi order.

Furthermore even though I described the Exile as a powerhouse in her era I never bothered to describe the extent of her powers except that her feats place her above some of the best force users in that era (namely Kreia and Immortal Sion).

Lastly, it's quite clear that by the same token Revan's powers haven't been given a clear description either except that his feats put him above some of the best force users of his era (namely SF Malak)






Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You don't know anything about the exile's potential, and her "innate" gifts were only due to her being a wound in the force.

You sure as hell have been arguing the exile's power .

What does "only due to her being a wound" have to do with anything? Some characters powers are attributed to their natural gifts by the writers while for the others theirs powers are acquired in life.

As for the second part I answered it above.



Originally posted by Darth Sexy
So Mandalore puts her in his league. Whoopty doo, this says what exactly?

This means that the primary source (Kotor 2 in this case) supports the idea that the Exile is on the same level as Revan.




Originally posted by Darth Sexy
No, you have 1 man's opinion, while we have sources detailing Revan's power. So as usual, you lose.

That's the thing Revan's powers are no more detailed than the Exile's. POD only describes his knowledge on Sith rituals, the chronicles don't say anything we don't already know (that he was a gifted and powerful force user). I know the sources and take them into consideration.

Allankles just owned the hell out of your ass Darth Sexy.

Originally posted by Nebaris
Allankles just owned the hell out of your ass Darth Sexy.


Sorry, nobody listens to an idiot who has been banned almost 40 times.

Originally posted by Allankles
How was her BM going to help with destroying dark Jedi and Sith troops on Revan's flagship? How was it going to help - in succesfully capturing the Dark Lord Revan? Might it be that outside the masters she might have been the best they had? Implying that she wasn't exactly average?
It doesn't imply she was anything but average. Have you read Ro2? There were 4 jedi against 2 sith, and 1 of them just sat there with his stupid BM.






Why wouldn't I use power levels? Isn't that the entire point for this star wars forum?


You have always claimed that she was a powerhouse overall and equal to Revan. Since you failed to prove this assertion, drop it.


Except Malak WAS the best force user in the era next to Revan. If you want to argue overall force knowledge and mastery, that goes to Revan who learned ancient sith techniques to put into a holocron. The Exile simply does not compare.




Really? Like what? You have to prove your assertions Allankles, how many times do I have to tell you this? There is NOTHING natural about the exile, seeing as how you know NOTHING about her before she became a wound, so I suggest you concede this part as well, seeing as how you can't make an argument for it.




No it doesn't.








Clearly not if you assume the Exile and Revan were equals.. Interesting why the Exile was just another general in Revan's army if they were equals.

Only before Malachor V. Afterwards she became one of the best capable of taking on legions of Sith and High-level Dark Lords.

Even I can see that your arguments suck DS. Why don't you just give up. Continuing to argue when you have clearly lost is like a broken pencil.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Only before Malachor V. Afterwards she became one of the best capable of taking on legions of Sith and High-level Dark Lords.

Even I can see that your arguments suck DS. Why don't you just give up. Continuing to argue when you have clearly lost is like a broken pencil.


Wow. Shit like that makes people wonder if you're a Noobaris troll or not. Since you've never offered anything on this forum that could be considered an argument, I suggest you pipe down and just troll these forums as you have been doing.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
It doesn't imply she was anything but average. Have you read Ro2? There were 4 jedi against 2 sith, and 1 of them just sat there with his stupid BM.

Those are the circumstances of the situation she found herself in, doesn't change the fact that the Jedi chose her to lead the team that was to capture Revan. The Jedi clearly trusted her ability in combat.






Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Why wouldn't I use power levels? Isn't that the entire point for this star wars forum?

I didn't say you shouldn't.


Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You have always claimed that she was a powerhouse overall and equal to Revan. Since you failed to prove this assertion, drop it.

I've always stated that Kotor 2 provided supporting evidence that she may have been on the same level as Revan in overall combat prowess. Certainly there's little or no evidence suggesting otherwise.


Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Except Malak WAS the best force user in the era next to Revan. If you want to argue overall force knowledge and mastery, that goes to Revan who learned ancient sith techniques to put into a holocron. The Exile simply does not compare.

Malak's power was never impressive enough to put him second in the era overall. Mainly because of the inclusion of Nihilus and Kreia into the mythos. He was a celebrated hero and undoubtedley powerful there' nothing suggesting he was more than that or any suggestion he was second best. What about Nihilus and Kreia's power? What about Kreia's wisdom and knowledge of the force?




Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Really? Like what? You have to prove your assertions Allankles, how many times do I have to tell you this? There is NOTHING natural about the exile, seeing as how you know NOTHING about her before she became a wound, so I suggest you concede this part as well, seeing as how you can't make an argument for it.

First of all how does being natural (or not) affect your actual potential? It's all fiction therefore it's all the same. The means by which a character arrives at their power is irrelevant. Ignoring all that the Exile in kotor 2 is all we're concerned with, she was pretty powerful at that point.


Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Clearly not if you assume the Exile and Revan were equals.. Interesting why the Exile was just another general in Revan's army if they were equals.

According to kotor 2 the Exile was a celebrated war hero, valued for her leadership and her ability in warfare. Good enough that she led the Republic fleet in the final battle of the Mando Wars (she was clearly the most capable military leader among the military men Revan mistrusted). We also know that Malak though a hero himself in that war had no tactical or strategic nuance.

Originally posted by Allankles
Those are the circumstances of the situation she found herself in, doesn't change the fact that the Jedi chose her to lead the team that was to capture Revan. The Jedi clearly trusted her ability in combat.
And this says what exactly? That she was powerful? That she was a good enough tactician to trap Revan? Right, we don't know.



There's no reason to suggest she was either. Combat prowess for a force sensitive has a lot to do with force mastery, and unless you're assuming the Exile=Revan in force mastery, there's no reason to assume she is equal to him in combat abilities.




Um, because being a wound in the force isn't "natural", and she got her abilities from being a wound in the force. There's nothing that would make us assume she was above average before becoming a wound in the force.

Your right. BEFORE becoming a wound in the force she was merely a skilled general. However afterwards she does become a powerhouse. When she talks to one of the Masters she even says that she is more powerful now, 'but I can use the force again, even better than before'. And she's in a pretty good position to judge.