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Discuss please.

Without leaders involved?

The Burning Legion..

With leaders involved?

The Burning Legion..
Sargeras would solo the Scourge..

Sorry my bad No Leaders.

When you say no leaders, do you mean that not even leader-species will be in it? Like the Doom Lords for example?

No high level leaders since that will turn into a Kil'Jaeden vs Lich King.

There will be leader species like the Liches and Necromancers and the Eredar and the Natherizim.

Then this is a Burning Legion victory.. I dont even think they have to send the Pit and Doom lords..

How does the infection of the Scourge spread?

I remember Arthas casting some sort of spell in Sylvanas in Warcraft III to make her Undead, but could it spread like Zombies do in movies? In that case the Burning Legion could get a serious problem.

No, Arthas slayed Sylvanas and when she was dead did he bring her back to life..

The Plague spread trough the grain/food of the people.. The infection was also time-based.. A full scale Burning Legion assault on Azeroth would have it wiped out in absolutely maximum two, three days..

Considering that infernals could bring down hundreds of elves, and that the Burning Legion is just about a billion more than the scourge would make me believe that Burning Legion will conquer.

The Natherizim and Eredar would be the equivalent of the liches, only higher in number and with greater experience and power. The Pitlords would deal with most, if not all lesser soldiers.


It is a stomp in Burning Legion's favor. One infernal took Tyrande, Malfurion and Krasus group out without effort. The same infernal then plowed trough an entire elven batalion unhindered and the Burning Legion got thousands of them if not more.

Scourge with ease but ill say why later

Originally posted by Burning thought
Scourge with ease but ill say why later

With ease? They are at top a few millions versus at least a billion demons, where unlike Scourge there are not many weak ones. Their equivalent of a skeleton would be Gan'arg or perhaps Fel Orcs.

Either one would go at least 1 per 3 skeletons. They are smarter and faster.

Master magicians would be the Eredar and Natherizim, where both exceed any average Lich with horrible ease.

infact a million demons is the night elves estimate, theirs>yours

And waht about a fel orc undead/skeleton

Can you prove either of them exceed liches? but for the record neither would be able to do anything, apart from die due to constant mana drain and explosion spams from Destroyers

Originally posted by Burning thought
infact a million demons is the night elves estimate, theirs>yours

And waht about a fel orc undead/skeleton

Can you prove either of them exceed liches? but for the record neither would be able to do anything, apart from die due to constant mana drain and explosion spams from Destroyers

1. Billions according to the narrator. Narrator > Elves estimation

2. Fel Orcs destroy undeads horribly easy. Would not surprise me if it goes one orc per ten skeletons. The small beings does not matter though. Infernal and doom guards walk them over litteraly and their extinction will not even be noticed. Infernals who have no mana and are immune to magical damage. They will plow trough the undead armies with utter ease.

3. What is the greatest devestation a Lich has ever caused? Because Eredar Warlocks have laid waste to armies in moments.

1. show me the narrator quote

2. prove this, wtf you getting that from? an undead fel orc would crush a normal, as would an undead pit lord crush a normal one and whats a doom guard going to do when he is on the floor crawling with the cripple curse as thousands of various types of undead being, whether pitlord, fel orc/guard etc etc swarming it, and thats without a Flesh Titan like Thaddius just smashing a hole through him. Thaddius alone if he is allowed would take out half the Legion with polarity power, they would all explode in chain reaction.

The Destroyers would take away the Eredars power so their powers along with all the spellcasters of the legion would be forfeight while the massive AOE mana explosions kill legion left, right and center.....then they are raised, the so called billions if they really are will turn to millions while the scourges millions will turn to billions.....

3. show me please and an undead Eredar would be jolly good fun as well. Not that any of this matters, the Liches will be casting, the eredar will not...

This is forgetting Frostwyrms, Gargoyles etc etc etc theres so many undead, ime probably forgetting half of them, Abominations, Flesh giants, Flesh Titans, the various spieces of nerubian who would use their webbing and poisons to take out huge hordes of the Legion. Banshees possessing those they can, a pitlord would be a good choice perhaps or if thats impossible even lesser forces would be adequate.

The Legions armies although more numerous will not be after a few days fighting, if it lasts that long due to the Scourge being overall more effective, more powerful and non stop, can you prove fear and morale of the legion as well? are felguards said to be fearless? the undead sure are.

I see where this is going. No thank you.

BL wins with absolute ease.

no arguments? hmmm typical

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
BL wins with absolute ease.

Why yes. Because I am not even going to bother discussing with it. If he thinks the Liches can animate whoever they want from the Burning Legion he is wrong, but I will let him believe that. If he think that magic disruption will even effect the Burning legion, I will let him think that as well.

Magic is barely a portion of the true might of the Legion. Even if the Burning Legion was locked out of magic completely they would win.

Originally posted by Burning thought
no arguments? hmmm typical

Thypical, yes.

You want to know why? Because you are heavily BIASed and unwilling to see fact, no matter how much proof is given to you. That is why I dislike debating with you.

In lore, it took a Lich a heavily enhanced magical artifact in order to bring back anything more powerful than average skeletons and ghouls. Then, when the orb was broken all those he had brought back fell dead to the ground.

To even think that any demons beyond the lesser ones would be resurrected is a sign of uncunningness.

Originally posted by Becci
Thypical, yes.

You want to know why? Because you are heavily BIASed and unwilling to see fact, no matter how much proof is given to you. That is why I dislike debating with you.

In lore, it took a Lich a heavily enhanced magical artifact in order to bring back anything more powerful than average skeletons and ghouls. Then, when the orb was broken all those he had brought back fell dead to the ground.

To even think that any demons beyond the lesser ones would be resurrected is a sign of uncunningness.

Your massively BIASed as well and you have no fact, youve not shown any fact, you have zero....zippo...admit youve been conquered already due to you have zilch to debate with.

What lore and what lich, show me? in lore it took a massively weakened DK at the same time as the LK being equelly weakened seconds to summon a powerful adult blue dragons bones back to the dead and who continues to live strong to this day.

To the liches a few powerless and manaless Eredar or Nethrezime would be less than most of the lesser demons from range, if their dead, their dead, can you show me proof it would be harder for them to be raised?

I ask for facts then you give up, then you say I wont see fact, youve shown me none thats why I dont see fact lol...

Originally posted by Burning thought
Your massively BIASed as well and you have no fact, youve not shown any fact, you have zero....zippo...admit youve been conquered already due to you have zilch to debate with.

What lore and what lich, show me? in lore it took a massively weakened DK at the same time as the LK being equelly weakened seconds to summon a powerful adult blue dragons bones back to the dead and who continues to live strong to this day.

To the liches a few powerless and manaless Eredar or Nethrezime would be less than most of the lesser demons from range, if their dead, their dead, can you show me proof it would be harder for them to be raised?

I ask for facts then you give up, then you say I wont see fact, youve shown me none thats why I dont see fact lol...

1. Nothing to debate with? One single infernal wiped out Malfurion, Tyrande, Krasus and an entire batalion of elves. A fel hound took out two adult blue dragons and a paladin and at the same time showed that magic and physical damage is ineffective against it. A few thousands of them would probably wipe out the majority of the Scourge.

More? The Fel Reaver is larger than any beings of the Scourge, made completely out of metal and fel energies and due to not being living would be able to resist all mental assaults, corruptions, curses and pain related effects.
A Doomguard should not even have to be explained, but would bring destruction in the form of meteor showers and by simply physically overpowering anything.
The dragons of the legion too would bring significant force obviously.


2. I do not remember the name of the first one, but Dar'Khan was another Lich that required the Orb of Ner'Zhul to manifest enough power to bring back anything greater than skeletons.

Seconds? HAH! You probably think he (Who is the most powerful of all Lich King's deathknights I should add) resurrected Sylvanas in seconds too, don't you?

I agree with Becci cause she is hot(assumin that is her in the avy).

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
I agree with Becci cause she is hot(assumin that is her in the avy).

oh

Awesome!

Originally posted by Becci
1. Nothing to debate with? One single infernal wiped out Malfurion, Tyrande, Krasus and an entire batalion of elves. A fel hound took out two adult blue dragons and a paladin and at the same time showed that magic and physical damage is ineffective against it. A few thousands of them would probably wipe out the majority of the Scourge.

More? The Fel Reaver is larger than any beings of the Scourge, made completely out of metal and fel energies and due to not being living would be able to resist all mental assaults, corruptions, curses and pain related effects.
A Doomguard should not even have to be explained, but would bring destruction in the form of meteor showers and by simply physically overpowering anything.
The dragons of the legion too would bring significant force obviously.


2. I do not remember the name of the first one, but Dar'Khan was another Lich that required the Orb of Ner'Zhul to manifest enough power to bring back anything greater than skeletons.

Seconds? HAH! You probably think he (Who is the most powerful of all Lich King's deathknights I should add) resurrected Sylvanas in seconds too, don't you?

1. What do you mean by "took out" their all alive....also quote from the book exactley what they did to the creatures, its shown in canon that so many of the legion fell anyway, armies clashed with eachother, if they were that overpowered the legion wouldnt have been repelled in so many wars.

Sure the Doomguard would, if a Destroyer hadnt already consumed his mana lol....and he wasnt weakened on the floor...then smothered etc etc same with Fel reavers, can you prove their metals strength, they would be frozen by Lich magic.

Frost wyrms and Destroyers combined would take out most of the legion and so would Thaddius.

2. did he try and fail to bring back anything greater? its been shown Arthas can bring back higher beings with ease and weakened.

Well sure, the game shows us what happened pretty clearly unless you missed it.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
I agree with Becci cause she is hot(assumin that is her in the avy).

thats prob a reply that outlines perfectly most of the reason and only ideas that back up most of my opponents who will enter this thread. Simple foolery.

1. Alive, yes. Concious at that time? Not really. As Malfurion said in the book, it was obvious that the infernal was only interested in a "general charge" that they were rapidly proven ineffective against and ran over.

Did whever you read all that about also say that Archimonde wanted his armies to go into a slaughter? That he wanted to lose those battles? When the legion forces were falling and retreating, Archimonde said that it was all going according to plans. The front lines of the defenders had been wiped out at the cost of many lives, but once the front lines was gone, he sent in the infernals and three single infernals wiped out the rest of the elven batalions, conquering the region.

Thaddius is a leader. This is just with general units so he is not part of it. Frost Wyrms and Destroyers would go down against the Fel Hounds. How do I know this? Because in the Sunwell Triology did a Fel Hound take down a dragon with ease. Since it at the same time absorbed her magic, there was no breaking out.


2. Weakend or not, this is still Arthas we are talking about. "Power Eternal", "Lich King's most powerful death knight", "Champion of the Lich King"

Read the Sunwell Triology and you will see the truth.

Originally posted by Becci
1. Alive, yes. Concious at that time? Not really. As Malfurion said in the book, it was obvious that the infernal was only interested in a "general charge" that they were rapidly proven ineffective against and ran over.

Did whever you read all that about also say that Archimonde wanted his armies to go into a slaughter? That he wanted to lose those battles? When the legion forces were falling and retreating, Archimonde said that it was all going according to plans. The front lines of the defenders had been wiped out at the cost of many lives, but once the front lines was gone, he sent in the infernals and three single infernals wiped out the rest of the elven batalions, conquering the region.

Thaddius is a leader. This is just with general units so he is not part of it. Frost Wyrms and Destroyers would go down against the Fel Hounds. How do I know this? Because in the Sunwell Triology did a Fel Hound take down a dragon with ease. Since it at the same time absorbed her magic, there was no breaking out.


2. Weakend or not, this is still Arthas we are talking about. "Power Eternal", "Lich King's most powerful death knight", "Champion of the Lich King"

Read the Sunwell Triology and you will see the truth.

1. see exacltey as I imagined, they didnt do anything to a Infernal, major PIS, if they were face to face on a battlefield and infernals charged the Frostwyrms would just freeze/demolish them with frost.

But still his forces were being destroyed and Infernals vs some elven battlians? well dur,that makes some ounche of sense but against Scourge who can do something or heroes who should also be able to.

A Felhound is a short beast, it cannot fly can it? no.....so a dragon would destroy it from range with impunity and so would a Destroyer.

2. Yes, and he, along with the King have been weakened to incredible levels.

telling someone to constantly read something doesnt mean anything for your argument, you may as well concede or simply leave until you can show evidence or ive already seen it if I wish to do so.

Originally posted by Burning thought
thats prob a reply that outlines perfectly most of the reason and only ideas that back up most of my opponents who will enter this thread. Simple foolery. Actually, it was more of a compliment to her, the part where I said that's the reason I agree with her was a joke. I think BL wins, well they have far greater numbers for one thing. They have a wider selection of kinds of troops, and more powerful ones on average.

but their not more powerful, half their troops would become useless (magic users as a whole) due to singlular troop types, their strength and bulk would also be useless due to cripple and other spells that make them weak.

Then youve got the fact Scourge grow after every being falls due to Necromancy, Legion beings joining the scourge as undead....every undead counterpart to the legion would be far more powerful than the original due to the nature of undeath. The scourge would be basically infinite once the bodies fall so numbers will mean little.

Well we might as well get this started then The Burning Legion ftw.

Originally posted by Burning thought
infact a million demons is the night elves estimate, theirs>yours
Where'd you get this information?
Originally posted by Burning thought
Can you prove either of them exceed liches? but for the record neither would be able to do anything, apart from die due to constant mana drain and explosion spams from Destroyers
Because there's much more Eredar/Nathrezim than there is Lich, as to have legions of sorcerers. Remember, the Legion warlocks are their very own race, not simply a necromantic creation from someone else.

Also, they are much, much older than the Lich and more experienced in the manipulation of magic. They are not as confined as Lich are, Lich magic deals with necromancy and ice. Eredar and Nathrezim (who invented Necromancy anyways) are much more versatile. Both their races have been dealing in and out of sinister magic ever since Sargeras found them.

As for the mana drain, they are able to do that too. Rhonin was attacked by a drain spell during War of the Ancients.
As for the destroyers, they can simply swarm doomguard (who are more individually powerful anyways and can fly) at the destroyers.

Originally posted by DarkC
Where'd you get this information?

Because there's much more Eredar/Nathrezim than there is Lich, as to have legions of sorcerers. Remember, the Legion warlocks are their very own race, not simply a necromantic creation from someone else.

Also, they are much, much older than the Lich and more experienced in the manipulation of magic. They are not as confined as Lich are, Lich magic deals with necromancy and ice. Eredar and Nathrezim (who invented Necromancy anyways) are much more versatile. Both their races have been dealing in and out of sinister magic ever since Sargeras found them.

As for the mana drain, they are able to do that too. Rhonin was attacked by a drain spell during War of the Ancients.
As for the destroyers, they can simply swarm doomguard (who are more individually powerful anyways and can fly) at the destroyers.

http://www.wow-europe.com/en/info/story/chapter1.html#6



The liches could be larger than a race since they are created by LK for the dark sorcerers in his armies:



This quote shows us that the vastness of the Liches can be high indeed, they are simply many empowered spellcasters changed by the LK, they could be just as numerous as most races due to the fact they ARE made out of most races, hell lots of diffrent races depending on Necromancer and undead.

More experianced perhaps but more powerful is not debated, its only the lords and most powerful Eredar of the legion, like Archimonde and Kiljaeden, Archimonde now gone that have shown such devastating powers such as city destruction but what have Regular Eredar actually shown, you cannot base your argument on their age entirely since LK is one of the most powerful beings Azeroth has ever seen yet hes what? how old, barely a youngling compared to some of the beings. Liches gain power straight from the Lich King, sometimes as gifts as the quote says who>Eredar.

Who are able to do it and at what range? and drain whom? the Destroyer needs neither mana or power at all to do any of his spells, not to mention destroyers are immmune to magic, so therefore we have a being who not only immune to maigc but who can dispel it, drain it and burn those using it, imagine an Eredar hit by a mana burn, considering their power and vast magic ability they would explode to pieces OR simply be badly wounded, and thats without the huge mana bursts in AOE around the destroyers killing other legion warriors in their hundreds that would mean Scourge would gain hundreds. And ofc this is just a few Destroyers, they were built by the ancients in Northrend and the Old god residing there much like the silithid, they would have hundreds down there, their numbers would equel legion soldiers who could be considered "heavy assault forces" in number.

Originally posted by Utrigita
Well we might as well get this started then The Burning Legion ftw.

indeed lets, so what are your points?

No points needed, all know that Burning Legion will win.

but you dont so the problem is nobody has points ,I do, so then I win since basically everyone has conceded.

Becci hasn't been online and I doubt DarkC is finished either...

what about that fascinating PM you sent me with why the Legion would lose care to post it...

Because from my point of view the Scourge has absolutely nothing that will assure them the win.

Well dont spam this thread if you dont plan on debating in it please.

Maybe I will later, but the information ive already given basically outlines what i said in that post as well. Destroyers and undead ftw

The Legion wins because they basically outshines the Scourge in every department.

The Destroyers sure are a nice intervention, which will help the Scourge not become slaughtered the moment instantly however the Destoyers faces major problems the greatest being the Doomguards and even though they can drain the mana from them, the Doomguards themselves are highly resistant to magical attacks (checking up on immunity), furthermore they can fly. And attack from the ground if needed.

On the ground we basically has the Ghouls and Zombies against the FelGuards and FelHounds, The Ghouls survice to say will be slaughtered and the Zombies will be ripped apart too.

Ofcause there is also the abomination however against a Pit Lord, I don't think I need to say more.

In the air we still lack the Frostwyrms however the Firewreck Dragon is sure to cause them major problems coupled with the Doomguards who is already up there. Also The fel Dragons will sure help to equal the air dominance.

On the Magical side, I find the Scourge highly outnumbered they have the Liches and Necromancers, The Legion has the Eredar (supreme sorcerer) Natherizim, Shivarra, Voidterror, and the numerous races that have joined the legion such as the Satyrs and Fel Elves also holds powerful mages.

Furthermore the Legion can rain infernals down on the battlefield, walking engines of destruction that when they are dead cannot be ressurrected by any means to be used for the Scourge (they are immune to magic too) which are sure to cause the Scourge major problems both because of the impact, there strength and there lacking corpse when they die.

Originally posted by Utrigita
The Legion wins because they basically outshines the Scourge in every department.

The Destroyers sure are a nice intervention, which will help the Scourge not become slaughtered the moment instantly however the Destoyers faces major problems the greatest being the Doomguards and even though they can drain the mana from them, the Doomguards themselves are highly resistant to magical attacks (checking up on immunity), furthermore they can fly. And attack from the ground if needed.

On the ground we basically has the Ghouls and Zombies against the FelGuards and FelHounds, The Ghouls survice to say will be slaughtered and the Zombies will be ripped apart too.

Ofcause there is also the abomination however against a Pit Lord, I don't think I need to say more.

In the air we still lack the Frostwyrms however the Firewreck Dragon is sure to cause them major problems coupled with the Doomguards who is already up there. Also The fel Dragons will sure help to equal the air dominance.

On the Magical side, I find the Scourge highly outnumbered they have the Liches and Necromancers, The Legion has the Eredar (supreme sorcerer) Natherizim, Shivarra, Voidterror, and the numerous races that have joined the legion such as the Satyrs and Fel Elves also holds powerful mages.

Furthermore the Legion can rain infernals down on the battlefield, walking engines of destruction that when they are dead cannot be ressurrected by any means to be used for the Scourge (they are immune to magic too) which are sure to cause the Scourge major problems both because of the impact, there strength and there lacking corpse when they die.

Show me how well a doomguard can fly, he seems a large humanoid flyer, humanoid flyers especially of large size are often cumbersome and bad flyers. And dont forget, Nerubians can web....

not at all, show me the strength of a felguard please and a hound, quotes from books with page refrences I will allow in this description, as well as I would like to know the situation of the battle and what was used agains the creatures in question. Ghouls and Zombies are not as weak as you claim, their undead which means their going to have to be completly butchered to keep down and excuse me? Abominations are part of this, they would smash a Felguard charging line down with their size, then we have the Flesh giants...even bigger and more powerful and machine mechanised Abominations...they would fallten them, and no..a pitlord even if not crippled would meet its match in a Flesh titan.

What about a Pitlord that cannot move? i.e, crippled......and weak...


No not really, firewreck dragons=lumps of flying wood, not a matrch at all againdt a undead Great dragon of frost blasting the legion from the air, show me what a fel dragon can do please, and dont forget the scourge have Gargoyles. Nerbuians again for anti air win.

Problem is, all these magic users are drained of mana...so they can do little more but sit and wait for their impending doom and thats if their not dead from mana burnings.

Well first none of that would happen, because the Eredar would need to summon=mana which they dont have remember....lets say the Destroyers dont get there before the last summonig which you need to show me the cast time of ofc.

We also have Scourge death knights, summoning all kinds of undead, recalling up to 6 each for moments but still useful, 6 undead pitlord recall ftw. Hell the amount of power at the scourges hands is enormous.

Then finally we have the overall view of the fact some of these scourge could have "will not die" animation power so they will need to be burned to cinders to stop, then we have the various diseases, which will spread throughout the entire legion as were shown how close they like to stand together.

And all the while every dead that is actually taken down can be raised, again and agan, undead Pitlords, Eredar, Felguards, hounds all swarming on their former masters. Also look through all teh Naxxramas encounters, see the huge amount of abilities the Scourge can bring to bear from just one necropolis:

http://www.wowwiki.com/Naxxramas

You realise Crylord locust swarms will eat the felguards alive, A lot of the magic users, from the widow wing can use nature damage (poor demons..ouch) of poison and all kinds of powers such as rain of fire. The queen spider of the entire wing can web up everyone, these are minions of the scourge, just like how Death knights etc are, so she is allowed in the battle.

Also Thaddius is not a commander, he can be used....he is simply a flesh Titan, nothing more..the fact hes a boss for the heroes means nothing.

now lets look at the plague wing:

Plague magics that can infect entire groups through spreading, cripple that all necromancers have, some can blink like Noth plaguebringer.
AOE mana burns, vast amounts of powers already.

Deathknight wing:

Gothik the Harvester can take souls, shadow bolt, teleport, summons/raises beings and units quickly from the dead, and multiplies them.

The four horsemen are also vast in abilities range but the main point of all these is to show the vast range of abilities at the finger tips of a single Ziggurat, now imagine the entire Scourge legions, almost all these characters are fair to use in a non commander debate because most of them are not even commanders, some like Thaddius are experiments of the abomination wing, some of the Necromancers are simply that.

So we can use named ones now?

Btw, BT.. What makes you think the Scourge will be able to do all that before the Legion will get the chance to do anything at all? You make it sound like the Legion will just stand and watch while they let the Scourge get close and start debuffing..

Also, I'd like to point out that infernals are immune to all magic, are physical powerhouses and they alone probably match the quantity of significant scourge opponents.. Frost Wyrms's breath is based on magic and as we all know, they cant attack them ((Seen in Warcraft 3)).. The flesh titans attacks are also magic, just like the majority of the Scourge..

The scourge will fail due to their quantities of magical beings.. I think the fel hounds and infernals would probably them alone almost be overkill.. The scourge has too much magic and too little significant physical powerhouses compared to the legion..


You also have to consider the fact that there are not many destroyers and frost wyrms.. While the infernals and fel hounds surpass thousands, the frost wyrms and destroyers are a few hundred at top.. they are far more rare, and entirely ineffective against the infernals and fel hounds, just like all other magical opponets..

http://www.wowwiki.com/Doomguard

Don't forget that they can still fly and attack from the ground.

A Felguard wields a massive warblade and a Hound has enough strength to bring down a Adult Dragon. The zombies are nothing more then animated corpses and the Ghouls are strong but not tough, the FelGuards are both have intelligence.

also please read MG 86

Generally read up on them http://www.wowwiki.com/Felguard they outlast Ghouls and Zombies by quiet a margin.

The Abominations will have there hands full with the infernals, and the Pitlords can dispel Magic, so cripple will not have a long effect on them.

I haven't, and may I once again add that you are underestimating the Firewreck Dragons, the Fel Dragons are undead Dragons much like the frost wyrms the only difference is that they are burning with Demonic energy, also Gargoyle vs Doomguard... As for the Nerubians I wouldn't recommend bringing the Doomguards down in the middle of the Battlefield where they really can lay waste to there surroundings.

If you destroyers are determind on draining all that mana, then they will explode, as simple as that.

Then it's a luck that both the Pitlords and Natherizim can summon infernals too.

As shown by Becci the amount of energy required to ressurrect a Pitlord would be enormous far beyond what any single Death Knight could accomplishe on his own, when a Lich couldn't ressurrect more then skeletons then a pitlord isn't likely.

What disease will spread through the Legion? And which Undead would have the power you speak of? The Liches? Not quiet when the animated corpse fall it is not very likely to raise again, and what does it even matter if they animate them if they are going to lose 3 everytime the legion loses one...

I said no leaders, BT what you are mentioning there are leaders, hence they are not useable in this fight. The death knights is, the Liches is, the Crypt Lords is, but individual leaders given name will not be used in this fight as I pointed relative earlier in this thread.

And no Nozdormu we cannot.

Originally posted by Nozdormu
Btw, BT.. What makes you think the Scourge will be able to do all that before the Legion will get the chance to do anything at all? You make it sound like the Legion will just stand and watch while they let the Scourge get close and start debuffing..

Also, I'd like to point out that infernals are immune to all magic, are physical powerhouses and they alone probably match the quantity of significant scourge opponents.. Frost Wyrms's breath is based on magic and as we all know, they cant attack them ((Seen in Warcraft 3)).. The flesh titans attacks are also magic, just like the majority of the Scourge..

The scourge will fail due to their quantities of magical beings.. I think the fel hounds and infernals would probably them alone almost be overkill.. The scourge has too much magic and too little significant physical powerhouses compared to the legion..


You also have to consider the fact that there are not many destroyers and frost wyrms.. While the infernals and fel hounds surpass thousands, the frost wyrms and destroyers are a few hundred at top.. they are far more rare, and entirely ineffective against the infernals and fel hounds..

What are the legion going to do to repel them? nothing the legion has could really stop them. no their not, the Flesh titan has physical power and also electrical, like the polarity discharge, which will destroy most of the legion considering their proximity, and can you show me where it officially states the Frostwyrms breath is all magical, i dont remember htem not being able ot harm Infernals.

No i think the scourge will win because of their quanities and the Legions lack after the Destroyers settle in. Felhounds would be obliterated by AOE mana explosions from Destroyers who are flying out of their miserable silence/magic devour range, face it, the legion are outclassed in every way, shape or form by either Flesh titans physically, Destroyers in anti magic and the fact the Scourge iwll gain most of hte legions forces eventually as the battle goes on, Destroyers alone could take out every magic unit with impunity and destroy them, and the destroyers AOE explosion will take out most of hte rest who are not 100% immune to magic, the infernals just flounder about on the ground. A few Flesh giants would lay into infernals and break them up, I dont think their as invincible as you seem to be making them out, their lumps of fel enhanced stone moving, an undead pitlord would also crush them down.

Can you prove this? show me where your getting Infernals surpass thousands and numbers for destroyers and wyrms, please do, because you see Wyrms come from not only recently killed but also the ancient boneyards of the world in Northrend where the great dragons have went to die for years. This leaves it open for there to be thousands of dragons to pile up over the years. Same with Destryoers, they are built as ive said in Ahnquiraj and the Nerbuian homelands by the old god who lived there, they were built there, you cannot asume anything like direct numbers here, there could be nearly as many destroyers as there are infernals with ease.
Originally posted by Nozdormu
So we can use named ones now?

Why not? Utrigos just said no commanders or anything, if theyve got a name why should that make a diffrence?

Also keep in mind that mana burn is limited and wont be the death of a target at all.. This is seen in "Warcraft: Stranger in a Strange Land" where a druid is completely emptied on mana without noticing it.. The only part of him effected is that he cannot use magic, but he personally is not effected at health..

So a destroyer could pretty much (even though they probably wouldnt be able to drain all mana of... say... an eredar warlock) suck them dry and they would still not die.. Having mana doesnt make a target a lot weaker.. It only limit them from using magical abilities..

Originally posted by Utrigita
http://www.wowwiki.com/Doomguard

Don't forget that they can still fly and attack from the ground.

A Felguard wields a massive warblade and a Hound has enough strength to bring down a Adult Dragon. The zombies are nothing more then animated corpses and the Ghouls are strong but not tough, the FelGuards are both have intelligence.

also please read MG 86

Generally read up on them http://www.wowwiki.com/Felguard they outlast Ghouls and Zombies by quiet a margin.

The Abominations will have there hands full with the infernals, and the Pitlords can dispel Magic, so cripple will not have a long effect on them.

I haven't, and may I once again add that you are underestimating the Firewreck Dragons, the Fel Dragons are undead Dragons much like the frost wyrms the only difference is that they are burning with Demonic energy, also Gargoyle vs Doomguard... As for the Nerubians I wouldn't recommend bringing the Doomguards down in the middle of the Battlefield where they really can lay waste to there surroundings.

If you destroyers are determind on draining all that mana, then they will explode, as simple as that.

Then it's a luck that both the Pitlords and Natherizim can summon infernals too.

As shown by Becci the amount of energy required to ressurrect a Pitlord would be enormous far beyond what any single Death Knight could accomplishe on his own, when a Lich couldn't ressurrect more then skeletons then a pitlord isn't likely.

What disease will spread through the Legion? And which Undead would have the power you speak of? The Liches? Not quiet when the animated corpse fall it is not very likely to raise again, and what does it even matter if they animate them if they are going to lose 3 everytime the legion loses one...

I said no leaders, BT what you are mentioning there are leaders, hence they are not useable in this fight. The death knights is, the Liches is, the Crypt Lords is, but individual leaders given name will not be used in this fight as I pointed relative earlier in this thread.

And no Nozdormu we cannot.

Show me Felguard strength, ime well aware they wield massive blades but this pointless if they get smothered and ripped ot pieces, and they wear no armour either, unfortatley for htem they dont have the strength of being undead so a impalement will do each one a world of good.

Ive read about the Felguard, The same source whos just how stupid they are, they simply on command run at the enemy looking for weak points, wonderful, fresh corspes for the scourge, hell the scourge will boost by a few hundreds of thousands by Felguard casualties before the main battle even begins.

Pitlords will be Crippled again and again, the things will not have a moments piece and being able to dispel anything isnt worth much when your lieing on the ground with cripple and weakness.

yes, that would be a good idea, Cripple the doomguard, bring him odwn then smother him and destroy him, ala....undead Doom guard supreme coming right up, and no, but Gargoyles VS fel dragons in swarms could be deadly, their still scourge to be noted.

Youve never played in Ahnq quiraj have you, the explosion is not them dieing, the explosion is hte mana energy, thats why you have to keep them from exploding their energy or the raid wipes.

Pitlords and Nethrezim will have no mana, ime telling you, those Destroyers have a massive range AOE drain and explosion, it will be surprising if half the legion are not crawling, crippled, and being annhilated by mana blasts by about 100 destroyers at a time.

Becci hasnt shown anything apart from a single source where a Lich needed an orb to use necromntic powers, she has yet to show him having difficulty summoning more, weve already seen Arthas bring a Great blue dragon back, a pitlord will not be so difficult especially with many Necromancers all around.

no, the legion will lose 2, the scourge lose 3, then the scourge gain 5.....problem is the Felguards will lose in the hundreds thanks to destroyer explosiosn and Lich Death and decay+frost novas.

The legion have lost, the losses they take, and the scourge gain...its all too much, eventually the Scourge will be so large and full of units exactley the same (but undead) that the legion have it will be pointless. Destroyers can even annhilate the infernals lol.....

You didnt say named, you said commanders, none of these ive listed are commanders, some are Necromancers and Thaddus is a mere Flesh titan.

Originally posted by Nozdormu
Also keep in mind that mana burn is limited and wont be the death of a target at all.. This is seen in "Warcraft: Stranger in a Strange Land" where a druid is completely emptied on mana without noticing it.. The only part of him effected is that he cannot use magic, but he personally is not effected at health..

So a destroyer could pretty much (even though they probably wouldnt be able to drain all mana of... say... an eredar warlock) suck them dry and they would still not die.. Having mana doesnt make a target a lot weaker.. It only limit them from using magical abilities..

I was wrong, Destroyers dont have mana burn, I was thinking of the mana burn that drains mana AND damages you at the same time but they only have Devour magic and drain mana.

Originally posted by Burning thought
What are the legion going to do to repel them? nothing the legion has could really stop them. no their not, the Flesh titan has physical power and also electrical, like the polarity discharge, which will destroy most of the legion considering their proximity, and can you show me where it officially states the Frostwyrms breath is all magical, i dont remember htem not being able ot harm Infernals.

No i think the scourge will win because of their quanities and the Legions lack after the Destroyers settle in. Felhounds would be obliterated by AOE mana explosions from Destroyers who are flying out of their miserable silence/magic devour range, face it, the legion are outclassed in every way, shape or form by either Flesh titans physically, Destroyers in anti magic and the fact the Scourge iwll gain most of hte legions forces eventually as the battle goes on, Destroyers alone could take out every magic unit with impunity and destroy them, and the destroyers AOE explosion will take out most of hte rest who are not 100% immune to magic, the infernals just flounder about on the ground. A few Flesh giants would lay into infernals and break them up, I dont think their as invincible as you seem to be making them out, their lumps of fel enhanced stone moving, an undead pitlord would also crush them down.

Can you prove this? show me where your getting Infernals surpass thousands and numbers for destroyers and wyrms, please do, because you see Wyrms come from not only recently killed but also the ancient boneyards of the world in Northrend where the great dragons have went to die for years. This leaves it open for there to be thousands of dragons to pile up over the years. Same with Destryoers, they are built as ive said in Ahnquiraj and the Nerbuian homelands by the old god who lived there, they were built there, you cannot asume anything like direct numbers here, there could be nearly as many destroyers as there are infernals with ease.


Why not? Utrigos just said no commanders or anything, if theyve got a name why should that make a diffrence?

1. How about a quote from Blizzard's official strategy guide?




2. The Fel Hounds arent as pathetic as they seem in World of Warcraft.. They are almost entirely immune to magical attacks and if a magical attack is launched at them, the vines will absorb it.. It works pretty much in the same was as those lighting things you put on a roof to make sure the lighting hits them..

3. An undead pitlord? You really think an average necromancer could bring a pitlord back? Remember that there are no leaders involved here.. It took an average necromancer a blessed orb of Ner'Zhul to bring a frostwyrm back, and even this took time.. Then, when the necromancer died, so did the frostwyrm.. It took a ritual to bring back an above average skeleton in "Warcraft: Killing Ground" back.

4. On what are you basing that a Flesh Titan would be superior the Infernals? Even then, what make you think a Flesh Titan can bring down an Eredar warrior?

5. The number of the infernals? Well, considering the fact that there are thousands of them in WoW alone is one thing, and that's only the assembled forces.. You right, I dont have any exact numbers..

But do you really think that the world have had thousands of dragons? Get real.. Do some reading.. Learn a thing or two.. The flights had barely a hundreds each in the War of the Ancients..

Originally posted by Burning thought
You didnt say named, you said commanders, none of these ive listed are commanders, some are Necromancers and Thaddus is a mere Flesh titan.

Thread creator said "No named ones", so deal with it..

By the way.. What makes you think Thaddius is not the one and only Flesh titan? For all we know, he could be the result of a successful project.. Perhaps there are only a handfew of him existing at all.. Perhaps the experiments has just started.. What exactly DO you know about Flesh Titans? Or are you basing everything on Thaddius and makes assumption that Flesh Titans grow on trees just because they successfully brought one to life..

And dont come with "why shoudnt they have more?", because despite what you might think, it take a long time to create certain beings.. It isnt just a snap of a finger..

Again wielding the blade that they does speaks quiet clearly for there strength. Get smolded and ripped to pieces by what the unintelligent Zombies and Ghouls that have absolutely no sense of combat tactics? and the Ghouls will die just as well by being cut in two. Who will impale them? The abominations that are fighting with the Infernals?

They focus on the weak line to break through the line making a hole which they are experts in. and Stupid then you and I haven't been reading the same about the Felguards.

Again they have dispel, and I doubt the Scourge has enough mages to let me see, continuesly animate the fallen, using energy to keep them animated, casting curses left and right on the Pitlords and Doomguards.

No it wouldn't because as mentioned the Doomguards are highly resistant to magic in the game they are immune so cripple would have zero effect on them. again the Doomguards are still in the air to help them but we can ofcause say the Firewreck Dragons against the gargoyles...

No I haven't but I take the only source of ingame that I have



http://www.wowwiki.com/Obsidian_Destroyer

Arthas is the champion of the Lich King wielding Frostmourne that holds the power the Lich King, I believe there is some difference between the two incidents.

I have yet to see the Scourge animating the same corpse yet again and again and again and again like you claim they can. Proof please. Again the Destroyers are already fully occupied and the Liches have enough worries thanks to the Felhounds.

No the Scourge is, please do the math is the Scourge loses 3 every time the Legion loses 1 that makes it a two they are losing everytime the Legion loses one, and the Legion is larger then the Scrouge.

I said leader species only when Nozdormu asked me. I said leader species because the other will get to mixed up into comparing the named bosses in the end which isn't what I want.

Originally posted by Nozdormu
1. How about a quote from Blizzard's official strategy guide?




2. The Fel Hounds arent as pathetic as they seem in World of Warcraft.. They are almost entirely immune to magical attacks and if a magical attack is launched at them, the vines will absorb it.. It works pretty much in the same was as those lighting things you put on a roof to make sure the lighting hits them..

3. An undead pitlord? You really think an average necromancer could bring a pitlord back? Remember that there are no leaders involved here.. It took an average necromancer a blessed orb of Ner'Zhul to bring a frostwyrm back, and even this took time.. Then, when the necromancer died, so did the frostwyrm.. It took a ritual to bring back an above average skeleton in "Warcraft: Killing Ground" back.

4. On what are you basing that a Flesh Titan would be superior the Infernals? Even then, what make you think a Flesh Titan can bring down an Eredar warrior?

5. The number of the infernals? Well, considering the fact that there are thousands of them in WoW alone is one thing, and that's only the assembled forces.. You right, I dont have any exact numbers..

But do you really think that the world have had thousands of dragons? Get real.. Do some reading.. Learn a thing or two.. The flights had barely a hundreds each in the War of the Ancients..

1. That is gameplay though is it not? also I still swear if i put a Frostwyrm and a Infernal in a battle, the Frostwyrm doesnt get the "cant attack" command, ill try it in a min.

2. a Magic blast wave of destruction is diffrent from a magical attack, you cant really absorb a wave, its pure mana, but the Frost Wyrms would be a more worthy anti Felhound attack, and thats if AOE from Liches, skeleton mages and Necromancers among all other beings dont just smash them to pieces.

3. No but a Lich could considering it is so much more powerful. And see, a Necromancer brings back an adult dragon? most dragons brought back as Frostwyrms are "great dragons" which i belive are above adult level.

4. Flesh titans are great large things, an infernal would look like a tiddler, and most of the Legion would fall to a flesh titna, they have massive nature attacks in the form of lightning which would decimate demons ofc, but the most potent ability would be the polarity that would kill all the legion in a massive chain reaction, neg polarity and positive and since the legion march to war in close formation they would all explode.


5. fair enough, no exact numbers, the only way I can see this battle and debate being worth anything is if we simply equel out the numbers of groups we dont know the numbers of anyway

yes, in the entire war of the ancients=hundreds, then theres all the dragons in the entire world, can you prove the entire worlds worth of all dragons are at the fight, can you say the official quote your taking the number of dragons from? the boneyard was a place where the old dragons would go throughout the entire history of the world, there could be so many there, who knows.

Originally posted by Nozdormu
Thread creator said "No named ones", so deal with it..

By the way.. What makes you think Thaddius is not the one and only Flesh titan? For all we know, he could be the result of a successful project.. Perhaps there are only a handfew of him existing at all.. Perhaps the experiments has just started.. What exactly DO you know about Flesh Titans? Or are you basing everything on Thaddius and makes assumption that Flesh Titans grow on trees just because they successfully brought one to life..

And dont come with "why shoudnt they have more?", because despite what you might think, it take a long time to create certain beings.. It isnt just a snap of a finger..

Wow, that saved the legions skin...their so fortunate

This was one Titan being made in a single Necropolis, it would make sense theres more than one, not to mention the fact that it says there are blevied to be more and far more powerful versions in Northrend but we dont know.

Thaddius would be enough anyway, Although hitpoints are only just gameplay,his hitpoints are so high they are higher than the leader of the abyssals (greater than infernals) in a level 70 top raid...obviously Blizzard are telling us he is one hell mean son of a gun.

Originally posted by Utrigita
Again wielding the blade that they does speaks quiet clearly for there strength. Get smolded and ripped to pieces by what the unintelligent Zombies and Ghouls that have absolutely no sense of combat tactics? and the Ghouls will die just as well by being cut in two. Who will impale them? The abominations that are fighting with the Infernals?

They focus on the weak line to break through the line making a hole which they are experts in. and Stupid then you and I haven't been reading the same about the Felguards.

Again they have dispel, and I doubt the Scourge has enough mages to let me see, continuesly animate the fallen, using energy to keep them animated, casting curses left and right on the Pitlords and Doomguards.

No it wouldn't because as mentioned the Doomguards are highly resistant to magic in the game they are immune so cripple would have zero effect on them. again the Doomguards are still in the air to help them but we can ofcause say the Firewreck Dragons against the gargoyles...

No I haven't but I take the only source of ingame that I have



http://www.wowwiki.com/Obsidian_Destroyer

Arthas is the champion of the Lich King wielding Frostmourne that holds the power the Lich King, I believe there is some difference between the two incidents.

I have yet to see the Scourge animating the same corpse yet again and again and again and again like you claim they can. Proof please. Again the Destroyers are already fully occupied and the Liches have enough worries thanks to the Felhounds.

No the Scourge is, please do the math is the Scourge loses 3 every time the Legion loses 1 that makes it a two they are losing everytime the Legion loses one, and the Legion is larger then the Scrouge.

I said leader species only when Nozdormu asked me. I said leader species because the other will get to mixed up into comparing the named bosses in the end which isn't what I want.

Abominations dont need to fight infernals, destroyers can suck them away.

simply charging on command the enemy and losing thousands is stupid...full stop..

Curses are basically instant cast, the scourge are commanded by a single mighty mind, they will split up groups and this is simple strategy anyway, besides whats the cast time on dispel? the pitlord would have to keep dispelling itself as it slowly moves into battle until it realises its got no mana so it just lies there and awaits death.

have a look at the Naxxramas harvester of souls dude, ive given you the link already, he does it.

Felhounds will be destroyted by scourge ground forces and Frostwyrms.

But thats not true because the Scourge are far more powerful, and have the full activeness of their army, half the Legion casters will be downed by the Destroyers, also what do you mena destroyers will be kept occupied? by wat? a singel destroyer has a massive long range AOE drain that could on his own drain the mana of a huge legion of.....the legion (damn i said it), he destroyer gets more powerful as it drains and drains, several destroyers, perhaps a few handfulls will just devour the infernals and they will drop to the ground.

I could have added the leaders of the Race but that would be a overkill for the Legion.

Legion dont have any good leaders apart from maybe Doomlord Kazzak, most of their leaders are dead or otherwise incapacitated. Who do you have in mind that could match Thaddius? he could single handadly polarise the legion and kill them all...

1. Attack, yes.. But what makes you think it has any effect? All elements is magical in Warcraft, and the infernal is immune to magic.. The only way to bring one down is by physical force, and they are horribly strong, as seen in War of the Ancients..

2. It isnt different.. It's magic.. What makes it different? The fact that it drain magic? No, it takes magic to drain magic.. And do you think the hounds will just stand and watch? They are very fast beings, and as far as we've seen has incredible stamina.. They also absorb magic launched on them, so go ahead and use necromancers, mages and liches against them.. It'll only work in the Legion's advantage.. Just like infernals, the only efficient way to take a hound down is physically..

3. THE ORB OF NER'ZHUL! Do you have any idea what power it manifests? It raised the necromancy abilities to the skies and allowed them to bring an adult frostwyrm back.. Without it, they could only bring average skeletons back.. And what do you mean, "great dragons"? They are adults non-the-less.. The only ones that are above adult is "aspect dragons"

4. Right.. And how big exactly are the flesh titans? Like normal titans?
http://images.wikia.com/wowwiki/images/9/9a/MaidenOfVirtue.jpg
http://images.wikia.com/wowwiki/images/3/3d/Titans.png
Or am I missing something you've seen? Where exactly does it state that a flesh titan dwarf an infernal in size and strength? Because according to lore, it shouldnt..

5. Equal out the numbers? Then it's not a battle between the Burning Legion and the Scourge.. It's a battle between just scourge and burning legion soldiers.. That would be more even though.. Burning Legion stomp the Scourge otherwise..

I can if I care enough to find out the number of the dragons.. This since they all engaged Neltharion in the book, and I believe a couple of numbers was mentioned.. If they were thousands, the skies would be darkened.. I dont remember exact words, but they brought everyone, and Neltharion did not wipe out thousands of dragons that day.. Even if he did, they were incinerated and wouldnt be resurrectable..

Originally posted by Burning thought
Wow, that saved the legions skin...their so fortunate

This was one Titan being made in a single Necropolis, it would make sense theres more than one, not to mention the fact that it says there are blevied to be more and far more powerful versions in Northrend but we dont know.

Thaddius would be enough anyway, Although hitpoints are only just gameplay,his hitpoints are so high they are higher than the leader of the abyssals (greater than infernals) in a level 70 top raid...obviously Blizzard are telling us he is one hell mean son of a gun.

In a single necropolis? It was THE necropolis.. The head quarter.. It would make sense if they started an experiement there, which would be the one place where they manifest most power.. But you cant prove that there are more than one flesh titan.. I know you cant.. So why should we assume there are more? For the sake of pretending the Scourge stands a chance?

And are you bringing HP into this? Because one abyssal has
4,500,000 HP.. Thaddius has 6.700.000 HP.. Since there are a few thousand Infernals and only a few Flesh Titans (Perhaps even one for all we know) and the infernals are immune to magic, while the Flesh Titan isnt..

I'd say Infernal > Flesh Titan if you want to bring in game values into this..

Originally posted by Burning thought
Legion dont have any good leaders apart from maybe Doomlord Kazzak, most of their leaders are dead or otherwise incapacitated. Who do you have in mind that could match Thaddius? he could single handadly polarise the legion and kill them all...

lulz.. no.. Not if you take game values into consideration, which you seem to do..

Originally posted by Burning thought
Abominations dont need to fight infernals, destroyers can suck them away.

simply charging on command the enemy and losing thousands is stupid...full stop..

Curses are basically instant cast, the scourge are commanded by a single mighty mind, they will split up groups and this is simple strategy anyway, besides whats the cast time on dispel? the pitlord would have to keep dispelling itself as it slowly moves into battle until it realises its got no mana so it just lies there and awaits death.

have a look at the Naxxramas harvester of souls dude, ive given you the link already, he does it.

Felhounds will be destroyted by scourge ground forces and Frostwyrms.

But thats not true because the Scourge are far more powerful, and have the full activeness of their army, half the Legion casters will be downed by the Destroyers, also what do you mena destroyers will be kept occupied? by wat? a singel destroyer has a massive long range AOE drain that could on his own drain the mana of a huge legion of.....the legion (damn i said it), he destroyer gets more powerful as it drains and drains, several destroyers, perhaps a few handfulls will just devour the infernals and they will drop to the ground.

Infernals are immune to magic so what's your point?

Yes and that is why the Legion wouldn't do it as long as there are Doomguards Pit Lord and other highranking leaderraces present on the battlefield.

So is Greater dispel Magic. The Single mighty mind has been removed BT, I said no leaders, else I could say that Kil'Jaeden was guiding the Burning Legion and from afar raining down Infernals. And make it sound like there is only one Pitlord...

No leaders I said.

The frostwyrms erhh no, Nozdurmo has already explained why they wouldn't, as for the groundforces probably but again a single Hound grounded a Adult Dragon...

That isn't a very good explanation on why the Scourge would win, simply because they are far more powerful, wasn't that what you called spamming a few pages back when I said it? Okay so now it's only half of the legion that is getting drained what part if I might ask are getting drained currently? The Doomguards will keep them fully occupied. If he drains such a massive area of the Legion then he is going damage the Scourge more then he damages the spellcasters on the legions part simply because he wouldn't be capable of handling the amount of mana from the spellcasters, when the Legion finds out that the Destroyers feast on mana and that they can overload because of it they are going to make sure that those that are left get the meal of there life. Again the Infernals are immune to magic, just like the destroyers the hole reason that the Destroyers even stand a chance in this is because of the immunity to magic else the Eredar and Natherizim will down the entire Scourge airforce quicker then they got into the air.

If we want to bring in game values, we can always take in Brutallus.. He's not a leader and he has 3.000.000 more HP than Thaddius.. He's a pit lord.. and they got plenty of pit lord..

Should I continue my search for game values that speak in benefit of the Legion? Get real, Burning Thought.. The Scourge gets slaughtered.. Pit Lords alone has proven high resistance to magical damage..

By the way.. Pitlords cant be resurrected.. We all remember Mannoroth being incinerated when he died.. Incinerated beings cant be resurrected, which is stated in the Sunwell Triology..

lol your like a bunch of kids, i say one game value which i said i dont take seriously anyway just as a thing of interest not serious debate and you try and crawl all over it, you see thats the lmit of your debating, you probably WISH that was a real argument so you can base all your arguments around the weakness of that one, problem is it wasnt an argumnet it was just a point of interest i wanted to point out so get over it.....lol

also can you put the direct quote from the trilogy in here please and the page number, theres no reason why incinerated beings shouldnt resurrect, they still have bones and not all Pitlords explode as weve seen from many Pitlords dieing in WoW

And the game value was my only point, wasnt it?

you made a few joking comments about game values...its ridiculous

Originally posted by Nozdormu
1. Attack, yes.. But what makes you think it has any effect? All elements is magical in Warcraft, and the infernal is immune to magic.. The only way to bring one down is by physical force, and they are horribly strong, as seen in War of the Ancients..

2. It isnt different.. It's magic.. What makes it different? The fact that it drain magic? No, it takes magic to drain magic.. And do you think the hounds will just stand and watch? They are very fast beings, and as far as we've seen has incredible stamina.. They also absorb magic launched on them, so go ahead and use necromancers, mages and liches against them.. It'll only work in the Legion's advantage.. Just like infernals, the only efficient way to take a hound down is physically..

3. THE ORB OF NER'ZHUL! Do you have any idea what power it manifests? It raised the necromancy abilities to the skies and allowed them to bring an adult frostwyrm back.. Without it, they could only bring average skeletons back.. And what do you mean, "great dragons"? They are adults non-the-less.. The only ones that are above adult is "aspect dragons"

4. Right.. And how big exactly are the flesh titans? Like normal titans?
http://images.wikia.com/wowwiki/images/9/9a/MaidenOfVirtue.jpg
http://images.wikia.com/wowwiki/images/3/3d/Titans.png
Or am I missing something you've seen? Where exactly does it state that a flesh titan dwarf an infernal in size and strength? Because according to lore, it shouldnt..

5. Equal out the numbers? Then it's not a battle between the Burning Legion and the Scourge.. It's a battle between just scourge and burning legion soldiers.. That would be more even though.. Burning Legion stomp the Scourge otherwise..

I can if I care enough to find out the number of the dragons.. This since they all engaged Neltharion in the book, and I believe a couple of numbers was mentioned.. If they were thousands, the skies would be darkened.. I dont remember exact words, but they brought everyone, and Neltharion did not wipe out thousands of dragons that day.. Even if he did, they were incinerated and wouldnt be resurrectable..

1. no....show me where ti says they can only be taken by physical force, the winds and rain itself is not magic....where is this stated?

2. Hounds will be easily taken down physically by Abominations and the assorted undead especially after the felguard rush, undead felguards would be even better. And no, Destroyers will devour the infernals with ease.

3. can you put the quote and page number where it says they can only summon average skeletons?

4. the game, its bigger than the maiden of Virtue:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hen_d6cb-Y

5. lol you wish, the Burning legion are far overpowered, they have nothing to defend themselves after the scourge are finished.

"The corpses has to be burned, so that they cannot be brought back by the undead"

Would any of you by chance have a account at Nihonomaru? Because then we can get the scan we want...

http://forum.nihonomaru.com/requests-section-119/warcraft-sunwell-trilogy-12378.html

Because I currently have things to do:

3. They are just about equal size.. Thaddius might be a head taller..

Originally posted by Nozdormu
"The corpses has to be burned, so that they cannot be brought back by the undead"

yeh burned to ashes, the bones as well, if youve got bones then you can get skeletons

Originally posted by Utrigita
Infernals are immune to magic so what's your point?

Yes and that is why the Legion wouldn't do it as long as there are Doomguards Pit Lord and other highranking leaderraces present on the battlefield.

So is Greater dispel Magic. The Single mighty mind has been removed BT, I said no leaders, else I could say that Kil'Jaeden was guiding the Burning Legion and from afar raining down Infernals. And make it sound like there is only one Pitlord...

No leaders I said.

The frostwyrms erhh no, Nozdurmo has already explained why they wouldn't, as for the groundforces probably but again a single Hound grounded a Adult Dragon...

That isn't a very good explanation on why the Scourge would win, simply because they are far more powerful, wasn't that what you called spamming a few pages back when I said it? Okay so now it's only half of the legion that is getting drained what part if I might ask are getting drained currently? The Doomguards will keep them fully occupied. If he drains such a massive area of the Legion then he is going damage the Scourge more then he damages the spellcasters on the legions part simply because he wouldn't be capable of handling the amount of mana from the spellcasters, when the Legion finds out that the Destroyers feast on mana and that they can overload because of it they are going to make sure that those that are left get the meal of there life. Again the Infernals are immune to magic, just like the destroyers the hole reason that the Destroyers even stand a chance in this is because of the immunity to magic else the Eredar and Natherizim will down the entire Scourge airforce quicker then they got into the air.

I didnt use magic did I, Destroyers will use Devour, it destroys summoned beings, if the Eredar manage to summon some, Destroyers will.....h8 to say this..."destroy" them

How do you know they wouldnt do it? thats what the Felguards do, it says it in the information, thats what they do...simple..

No mind? that means their just going to just stand there and do nothing, and no Kiljaeden doesnt control the Legion with his psionic link....hes completly diffrent, the Scourge operate under the mind of the LK, without it your throwing away as many advantages as they could have it seems lol...

Well prove how many pitlords there are please, their incredibly rare as its shown, theres like been a few handfuls shown across the whole of the series, they seem even more rare than Eredar, and whats more theres not going to be one Lich/Necromancer either.

Hes not a leader, hes a Necromancer in Naxx.


Guessing they are immune to even dragon breath (i dont think so, nothing states that) then the endless legions of Abominations ,Flesh giants and god knows what else will come forth.

Unfortatley thats not true, so no airforce will be downed, the Eredar will be drained of energy as will half the Legion thats actually hitting the Scourge, then slowly but surely the legion will fall, those not immune to magic like most of them will be erased by Mana explosions as the Destroyers reach their max mana which will be incredibly fast as they drain mana from about 100 beings at once, all of them, they would be in a constant wave of blasts ripping the legion into pieces and nothing will stop them.

The Infernals will be swallowed of their energies with Devour magic.





Originally posted by Nozdormu
In a single necropolis? It was THE necropolis.. The head quarter.. It would make sense if they started an experiement there, which would be the one place where they manifest most power.. But you cant prove that there are more than one flesh titan.. I know you cant.. So why should we assume there are more? For the sake of pretending the Scourge stands a chance?

And are you bringing HP into this? Because one abyssal has
4,500,000 HP.. Thaddius has 6.700.000 HP.. Since there are a few thousand Infernals and only a few Flesh Titans (Perhaps even one for all we know) and the infernals are immune to magic, while the Flesh Titan isnt..

I'd say Infernal > Flesh Titan if you want to bring in game values into this..

It was the head quarters but there are a large amount of them, all they need is Thaddius alone....and no ive already shown so many unit formations where the scourge would annhilate the Legion, they have no much use at all, ive got just as much reason to belive there are more than one Flesh titans that you have that there are more than perhaps 100 Eredar. Sure their rare, but of all these Necropolis all around Northrend and I thin ktheres even a few in Eastern plague lands theres going to be more than one.

Originally posted by Utrigita
Would any of you by chance have a account at Nihonomaru? Because then we can get the scan we want...

http://forum.nihonomaru.com/requests-section-119/warcraft-sunwell-trilogy-12378.html

Extecute can, if given the pages, provide scans from:
War of the Ancient
Rise of the Horde
Sunwell Triology
Warcraft manga

At least so he have told me

Originally posted by Burning thought
The liches could be larger than a race since they are created by LK for the dark sorcerers in his armies:
Yeah, larger than the gnolls probably. I'll give you the fact that there are a lot of Liches out there, but few that are notable.

However, they will not be larger than the Nathrezim or Eredar, both of which races are more than 10,000 years old (when you look at the timeline) and have had ample time to breed/multiply.
Originally posted by Burning thought
This quote shows us that the vastness of the Liches can be high indeed, they are simply many empowered spellcasters changed by the LK they could be just as numerous as most races due to the fact they ARE made out of most races, hell lots of diffrent races depending on Necromancer and undead.
Incorrect logic. You mentioned it yourself, the Lich King grants them the power individually. The fact that a group is made of members of multiple races does not make them substantially numerous. Look at the Burning Blade if you want an example.

While there are a lot of Lich about, they won't come close to the numbers of the Eredar and Nathrezim, both of which can be fielded in the hundreds in an open battle.
Originally posted by Burning thought
but what have Regular Eredar actually shown, you cannot base your argument on their age entirely
I'm not, but age and experience can be a deciding factor in many battles.

The Eredar and Nathrezim magic, here's a few examples:

-Summoning a corrupted rainstorm that dissolved flesh and armor.
-Summoning an enormous toxic fungi cloud that caused flesh to literally erupt with pistules and pus when it came into contact.
-Summoning hellfire.
-Sucking sorcerors dry of their magic and leaving dried up husks of corpses behind.
-Siezing a volley of arrows in flight and turning them back upon their very own bowmen.
-Dispel magic (including summoned units).
-Infest people with parasites.
-Infernal summoning.
-Exhaustion.

Plus all the magic warlocks are familiar with.
Originally posted by Burning thought
since LK is one of the most powerful beings Azeroth has ever seen yet hes what? how old, barely a youngling compared to some of the beings. Liches gain power straight from the Lich King, sometimes as gifts as the quote says who>Eredar.
Lich are extremely powerful, but as I said they're limited. They deal with ice and necromancer magic (and skeletons can simply be unanimated with magic).

How does recieving magic from the Lich King make them more powerful than the Eredar? It's like being handed a weapon. It's useless if you don't know how to weild it properly. In their case they recieved a piece of the Lich King's own magic, but they don't seem to weild it fully.
Originally posted by Burning thought
Who are able to do it and at what range? and drain whom?
Eredar, mainly. Nathrezim are hardly seen in War of the Ancients.

As always magic works at extremely great fields in the battlefield. As one night elven sorcerer said to an officer:
"We are trying to deal with both the doom guard above and the warlocks in the distance, but to do so we'll need more protection! (From fel hounds)"
Originally posted by Burning thought
the Destroyer needs neither mana or power at all to do any of his spells, not to mention destroyers are immmune to magic, so therefore we have a being who not only immune to maigc but who can dispel it, drain it and burn those using it
So? They can still be assaulted physically, hence why I mentioned the doom guard. The Legion owns and fields them in swarms. In Frozen Throne two or three gryphon riders could easily handle one.
Originally posted by Burning thought
imagine an Eredar hit by a mana burn, considering their power and vast magic ability they would explode to pieces OR simply be badly wounded, and thats without the huge mana bursts in AOE around the destroyers killing other legion warriors in their hundreds that would mean Scourge would gain hundreds.
To do that they would have to get past the doom guard in the skies to cast.
Originally posted by Burning thought
And ofc this is just a few Destroyers, they were built by the ancients in Northrend and the Old god residing there much like the silithid,
And so? They require animation from the Scourge.

Infernal summoning is simply going to destroy the Scourge. They cannot be stopped in the air, they're magic-immune, and they simply just barrel through forces. In the RoC manual they were described as powerful and dangerous enough to destroy cities.

The impact alone causes incredible damage, when it lands. As described in the novel, an infernal impact > calapaults armed with explosives.

And that's just ONE infernal.
Originally posted by Burning thought
they would have hundreds down there, their numbers would equel legion soldiers who could be considered "heavy assault forces" in number.
Proof?

Originally posted by DarkC
-Summoning a corrupted rainstorm that dissolved flesh and armor.
-Summoning an enormous toxic fungi cloud that caused flesh to literally erupt with pistules and pus when it came into contact.
-Summoning hellfire.
-Sucking sorcerors dry of their magic and leaving dried up husks of corpses behind.
-Siezing a volley of arrows in flight and turning them back upon their very own bowmen.
-Dispel magic (including summoned units).
-Infest people with parasites.
-Infernal summoning.
-Exhaustion.

Plus all the magic warlocks are familiar with.

Plus:

- Finger of Death
- Hand of Death (Speculation/Theoretic)
- Meteor Shower
- Infernal Rain
- Infernal Missle
- Necromancy to various extents
- Mana Shield
- Various fire magic
- Various shadow magic
- Magic Abolishment (Works against undeads to dispel them)
- Sleep

There's plenty more

Originally posted by Burning thought
I didnt use magic did I, Destroyers will use Devour, it destroys summoned beings, if the Eredar manage to summon some, Destroyers will.....h8 to say this..."destroy" them

How do you know they wouldnt do it? thats what the Felguards do, it says it in the information, thats what they do...simple..

No mind? that means their just going to just stand there and do nothing, and no Kiljaeden doesnt control the Legion with his psionic link....hes completly diffrent, the Scourge operate under the mind of the LK, without it your throwing away as many advantages as they could have it seems lol...

Well prove how many pitlords there are please, their incredibly rare as its shown, theres like been a few handfuls shown across the whole of the series, they seem even more rare than Eredar, and whats more theres not going to be one Lich/Necromancer either.

Hes not a leader, hes a Necromancer in Naxx.


Guessing they are immune to even dragon breath (i dont think so, nothing states that) then the endless legions of Abominations ,Flesh giants and god knows what else will come forth.

Unfortatley thats not true, so no airforce will be downed, the Eredar will be drained of energy as will half the Legion thats actually hitting the Scourge, then slowly but surely the legion will fall, those not immune to magic like most of them will be erased by Mana explosions as the Destroyers reach their max mana which will be incredibly fast as they drain mana from about 100 beings at once, all of them, they would be in a constant wave of blasts ripping the legion into pieces and nothing will stop them.

The Infernals will be swallowed of their energies with Devour magic.


The Infernals are summoned correct however no magic has any effect on them and Devour Magic is magical in natur how are the destroyer going to devour magic from beings that are immune to magic is beyond me. Furthermore they drain Mana the Infernals have no mana they can drain.

The felguards are MG 68

Neither a Zombie ore a Ghoul has been classified as the perfect soldier.

The Liches can control the undead just as well, the impression you was making in your previous post was that the Lich King would be the one commanding the Scourge which in this scenario isn't the case, it's the Death Knights and Liches and Necromancers that have that job,

The Pit Lords are a Entire race, numbers unknown however there are more then 20 highranking pitlords currently, however the number isn't more known then the number of destroyers.

Okay, but why does he has any importance?

No that wasn't the case. Sorry but there is nowhere mentioned that there are endless legions of Abominations and Flesh Titans.

Again if they drain the Warlock they will hit them with the Area of effect drain mana spell, and then they will both target the imps the warlock has with him and the Eredar himself, and we know they can overload, which they are more then likely to do when they try to drain the mana of half the Legion, and where are they placed in there own ranks ore in the air either way it's going to get nasty for the destroyers.

No as said earlier that isn't the case.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Well prove how many pitlords there are please, their incredibly rare as its shown, theres like been a few handfuls shown across the whole of the series, they seem even more rare than Eredar, and whats more theres not going to be one Lich/Necromancer either.
What the -

When was the last time you did the "The Air Strikes Must Continue" daily quest? It shows maybe 5-10 Pit Lords down the Dead Scar battling the Scourge, some of them side by side. There's only a few that have been of actual significance or have been named, such as Mannoroth, Azgalor, and Magtheridon.

I'm not sure where you're getting this "incredibly rare as its shown" nonsense when evidence in WoW clearly suggests otherwise.
Originally posted by Burning thought
Hes not a leader, hes a Necromancer in Naxx.
Kel'Thuzad? Yeah, he's a necromancer in Naxx. And he is also a leader, he's one of the Lich King's chief lieutenants.

He was speaking about Gothik the Harvester I believe...

Originally posted by Burning thought
1. no....show me where ti says they can only be taken by physical force, the winds and rain itself is not magic....where is this stated?
They have spell immunity.

http://www.battle.net/war3/undead/units/infernal.shtml

Originally posted by DarkC
Yeah, larger than the gnolls probably. I'll give you the fact that there are a lot of Liches out there, but few that are notable.

However, they will not be larger than the Nathrezim or Eredar, both of which races are more than 10,000 years old (when you look at the timeline) and have had ample time to breed/multiply.

Incorrect logic. You mentioned it yourself, the Lich King grants them the power individually. The fact that a group is made of members of multiple races does not make them substantially numerous. Look at the Burning Blade if you want an example.

While there are a lot of Lich about, they won't come close to the numbers of the Eredar and Nathrezim, both of which can be fielded in the hundreds in an open battle.

I'm not, but age and experience can be a deciding factor in many battles.

The Eredar and Nathrezim magic, here's a few examples:

-Summoning a corrupted rainstorm that dissolved flesh and armor.
-Summoning an enormous toxic fungi cloud that caused flesh to literally erupt with pistules and pus when it came into contact.
-Summoning hellfire.
-Sucking sorcerors dry of their magic and leaving dried up husks of corpses behind.
-Siezing a volley of arrows in flight and turning them back upon their very own bowmen.
-Dispel magic (including summoned units).
-Infest people with parasites.
-Infernal summoning.
-Exhaustion.

Plus all the magic warlocks are familiar with.

Lich are extremely powerful, but as I said they're limited. They deal with ice and necromancer magic (and skeletons can simply be unanimated with magic).

How does recieving magic from the Lich King make them more powerful than the Eredar? It's like being handed a weapon. It's useless if you don't know how to weild it properly. In their case they recieved a piece of the Lich King's own magic, but they don't seem to weild it fully.

Eredar, mainly. Nathrezim are hardly seen in War of the Ancients.

As always magic works at extremely great fields in the battlefield. As one night elven sorcerer said to an officer:
"We are trying to deal with both the doom guard above and the warlocks in the distance, but to do so we'll need more protection! (From fel hounds)"

So? They can still be assaulted physically, hence why I mentioned the doom guard. The Legion owns and fields them in swarms. In Frozen Throne two or three gryphon riders could easily handle one.

To do that they would have to get past the doom guard in the skies to cast.

And so? They require animation from the Scourge.

Infernal summoning is simply going to destroy the Scourge. They cannot be stopped in the air, they're magic-immune, and they simply just barrel through forces. In the RoC manual they were described as powerful and dangerous enough to destroy cities.

The impact alone causes incredible damage, when it lands. As described in the novel, an infernal impact > calapaults armed with explosives.

And that's just ONE infernal.

Proof?

So your proof that the legion bent on destruction of worlds is stitting around breeding please is required.

Show me where they are fielded in the hundreds please.

Wonderful, and these are useful when the Eredar and legion magic users are unable to cast any spells how?

All beings in this battle are limited, especially the legion casters who cannot cast anything, Liches are incredibly powerful and they use several kinds of magic from shadow, frost, ice etc etc these schools alone could do almost anything from creating void explosions, freezing etc etc, blizzards.

Show me doomguard movmement speed please, and the "swarms" as well. And they wouldnt have to get past much, this is the air, its not like you can create a blockade and Doom guards could simply be sent back to the ground thanks to webbing from the nerubians and other spiderlike entities.

Infernals will be devoured by Destroyers

erm...okie what was that point for? ofc they require animation....

The same proof you have, Pitlord is in small numbers just like Destroyers, only Pitlords are not as good forces.




Originally posted by DarkC
What the -

When was the last time you did the "The Air Strikes Must Continue" daily quest? It shows maybe 5-10 Pit Lords down the Dead Scar battling the Scourge, some of them side by side. There's only a few that have been of actual significance or have been named, such as Mannoroth, Azgalor, and Magtheridon.

I'm not sure where you're getting this "incredibly rare as its shown" nonsense when evidence in WoW clearly suggests otherwise.

Kel'Thuzad? Yeah, he's a necromancer in Naxx. And he is also a leader, he's one of the Lich King's chief lieutenants.

jesus 5-10, thats an incredible horde......thats incredibly rare....their nothing in numbers to most beings in the legion thats for sure, like Felguard and Moanarg for instance.

What utrigos said...

Originally posted by DarkC
They have spell immunity.

http://www.battle.net/war3/undead/units/infernal.shtml

Good, as i thought, not frost breath immunity, the frost breath isnt a spell....

Originally posted by Utrigita
The Infernals are summoned correct however no magic has any effect on them and Devour Magic is magical in natur how are the destroyer going to devour magic from beings that are immune to magic is beyond me. Furthermore they drain Mana the Infernals have no mana they can drain.

The felguards are MG 68

Neither a Zombie ore a Ghoul has been classified as the perfect soldier.

The Liches can control the undead just as well, the impression you was making in your previous post was that the Lich King would be the one commanding the Scourge which in this scenario isn't the case, it's the Death Knights and Liches and Necromancers that have that job,

The Pit Lords are a Entire race, numbers unknown however there are more then 20 highranking pitlords currently, however the number isn't more known then the number of destroyers.

Okay, but why does he has any importance?

No that wasn't the case. Sorry but there is nowhere mentioned that there are endless legions of Abominations and Flesh Titans.

Again if they drain the Warlock they will hit them with the Area of effect drain mana spell, and then they will both target the imps the warlock has with him and the Eredar himself, and we know they can overload, which they are more then likely to do when they try to drain the mana of half the Legion, and where are they placed in there own ranks ore in the air either way it's going to get nasty for the destroyers.

No as said earlier that isn't the case.

Show me where Devour magic is magic itself, it just devours it, plain and simple through the destroyers mouth, the Infernals will all drop as piles of rock and ash.

So? perfect soldier for what? getting killed like a meatshield....great....well they can do that....as the same source it says they do, if the idea behind the legion of a perfect soldier is to do that is fair enough, the Scourge are not soldiers at all...their a relentless legion of deathless warriors who will not stop, who will rise and who will keep coming ripping and clawring, most of which have unholy speed (not zombies) and strength.

The LK is in their minds, he doesnt have to be in the battle, the Scourge is basically the will of the LK, but if Legion need to have the scourge weakened more and more then w/e their still useless in the face of the scourge.

The pitlords are rare, simple, their used as commanders, they wouldnt be if they had as many as Felguards, their hardlyt ever seen in large numbers if at all, infact ime not sure they are ever in a larger number than Dark C has already shown the incredible mass of about 5 and ont all of them are unstopable juggernaughts like their large leaders such as Magtheridon and not all of them will be anything while Crippled wrecks.

hes important because he shows how Necromancers can have many vast powers, same with the point of showing most of the naxxramas chararacters, among them there are incredible summoners, those who can raise the dead again and again, those who use nature/poison magics and contagions...so many diffrrent beings among the scourge and Necromancers being so powerful and all.

Who said endless legions? theres no endless legions of any main soldier type in either force, only problem is...ime afraid the higher tier soldiers of the Scourge are far more powerful and potent.

The AOE drain mana spell will drain everything in the area, could be hundreds of eredar considering the legions stupid formation tactics of bunching up, and ofc if it can be proven theres hudnreds of eredar and just not a few handfulls here and there. yes they overload and explode with their mana energy, then rinse and repeat over and over, considering their drianing some of the most powerful sorcerors in the universe and many mana targets, theyll be exploding almost constantly sending out wave after wave, the destroyers will be fine, their immune to magic so theyll not harm themselves but destroy the legion in the thousands which will rise etc etc and the scourge will continue forwards and so will the Destroyers...

Originally posted by Burning thought
So your proof that the legion bent on destruction of worlds is stitting around breeding please is required.
Because I'm sure a prosperous and powerful race would sit around for tens of thousands of years and not breed, right?

Honestly, use some common sense.

It was shown in the third WotA novel, during the final battle and push towards Zin'Ashari.

Left run amok, yes they would cause devastation among the Legion sorcerors. Thankfully, they will be dealt with properly. I don't think an army of doomguard in the skies is going to let that pass slightly.

You're simply not looking at the entire situation and circumstances at all.

Again, stop with the ridiculous assumption that the destroyers will be left to run amok among the spellcasters of the Legion.

Well, first of all I believe you are starting to overhype again since frost and ice are the same thing, and they have not been shown to use any other type of magic other than frost, and shadow. Almost anything? Can they summon fire? Can they solidify a section of air and drop it down among their opposing army? Can they cause a storm of red lightning to instantly incinerate their enemies? Besides traditional sorcery (examples listed here) Eredar do deal with shadow spells since they are warlocks.

This is why I said that the Lich, despite being powerful, are limited. Their "gifts" bestowed upon them by the Lich King constraints them.



Quote from "Manual of Monsters":



They were fast enough to keep up with a dragon at cruise speed ("with every beat of his wings, miles were eaten away" and do battle with the dragon in general. During the flight back to the host, Krasus and Malfurion were riding Korialstrasz back and they were under attack by an army of doom guard waiting in the mist.

A fully matured dragon and two passengers, one an extremely powerful mage and the other the most powerful druid ever to exist, and they were still forced to retreat and break off the conflict from the doom guard.

Another passage earlier in that book that has some hint of their speed describes a squad of three doom guard flying out as an expeditionary scout force; Krasus wanted to take them all out with one spell, but since they were moving too fast too fast he wanted Malfurion as backup in case one escaped (and one did escape Krasus's spell, but not Malfurion's).

Yes, a blockade cannot be made in the air. However, as you said later in this post the destroyers are not numerous and so can simply be harassed and swarmed by numerous doom guard until they fall. As Archimonde describes:

"Countless doomguard waiting in the skies"

Also they are individually extremely powerful in addition to being numerous. The "Manual of Monsters" describes them here:


How? They're extremely physically powerful and hardy, are good commanders of the Legion host, possess latent magic abilities as well.

I didn't say it was a Horde. However, they are definitely not rare; remember it's a daily quest, you kill them but they just keep coming endlessly.

Frost Wyrms are few in comparison to Infernals; they just simply keep raining down. Even if the wyrms were left alone by the doomguard there's no way that the frost wyrm is going to trash more than a few infernal; remember, they're falling as meteors here; left right and centre.

Granted, if left alone the wyrm will make a dent in the number of infernals being summoned in, but it will not significantly affect the Legion.

Magic is magic itself, what are you talking about? No spells are magic itself, simply the manipulation of it, which in this case the infernal is immune to.

If there is anything that has to do with magic (such as devouring it, in your case) then yes it is magical.

Frost Wyrms can not attack Infernals in WC3. This because their attacks are magical.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Devour_Magic

Magical in natur, AOE drain only drains mana.

They are the perfect soldiers when pitted against any being that is on there own level, and there level is significantly above the Ghouls and the Zombies which makes up the majority of the Scourge army. The Scourge can be slain BT, the Scourge requires one thing to function and that is it's spellcasters, else the Scourge is worthless.

He will not have any influence on the battle other then keeping the army that they marshal at the beginning alive new corpses will be the concerns of the necromancers liches etc that are already present on the battlefield.

Of Cause there are not as many of them as there are Felguards, and the other canonfodder, but they are more then the few handfulls you claimed. There are roughly as mentioned before 20 high ranking leaders of the Legion living on azeroth ore outland. Again dispel and highly resistant to magic will take care of that.

So I can begin drawing in the skills of each individual Eredar that the Legion has and say that those skills they all has? No not in this thread.

You did you said endless legions of abominations and Flesh Titans which they doesn't have and furthermore one Infernal/Abyssal is more then enough to handle any abomination and Flesh Titans and you still lack proving there is more then one.

Of cause it will drain them but then the Destroyer will go up in smoke. And nothing about them reanimating they simply explode and destroyes themselves in the progress i draw this conclusion since a Druid(healer) and a Tank can easily take a Destroyer down in the gameplay and there is no ressurrection involved, furthermore it doesn't cast drain while it's engaged in combat apparently.

Please show me where it stats that they explode and then arise again and again, if that was the case the Dragons would have never defeated them.

Originally posted by DarkC
Because I'm sure a prosperous and powerful race would sit around for tens of thousands of years and not breed, right?

Honestly, use some common sense.

It was shown in the third WotA novel, during the final battle and push towards Zin'Ashari.

Left run amok, yes they would cause devastation among the Legion sorcerors. Thankfully, they will be dealt with properly. I don't think an army of doomguard in the skies is going to let that pass slightly.

You're simply not looking at the entire situation and circumstances at all.

Again, stop with the ridiculous assumption that the destroyers will be left to run amok among the spellcasters of the Legion.

Well, first of all I believe you are starting to overhype again since frost and ice are the same thing, and they have not been shown to use any other type of magic other than frost, and shadow. Almost anything? Can they summon fire? Can they solidify a section of air and drop it down among their opposing army? Can they cause a storm of red lightning to instantly incinerate their enemies? Besides traditional sorcery (examples listed here) Eredar do deal with shadow spells since they are warlocks.

This is why I said that the Lich, despite being powerful, are limited. Their "gifts" bestowed upon them by the Lich King constraints them.



Quote from "Manual of Monsters":



They were fast enough to keep up with a dragon at cruise speed ("with every beat of his wings, miles were eaten away" and do battle with the dragon in general. During the flight back to the host, Krasus and Malfurion were riding Korialstrasz back and they were under attack by an army of doom guard waiting in the mist.

A fully matured dragon and two passengers, one an extremely powerful mage and the other the most powerful druid ever to exist, and they were still forced to retreat and break off the conflict from the doom guard.

Another passage earlier in that book that has some hint of their speed describes a squad of three doom guard flying out as an expeditionary scout force; Krasus wanted to take them all out with one spell, but since they were moving too fast too fast he wanted Malfurion as backup in case one escaped (and one did escape Krasus's spell, but not Malfurion's).

Yes, a blockade cannot be made in the air. However, as you said later in this post the destroyers are not numerous and so can simply be harassed and swarmed by numerous doom guard until they fall. As Archimonde describes:

"Countless doomguard waiting in the skies"

Also they are individually extremely powerful in addition to being numerous. The "Manual of Monsters" describes them here:


How? They're extremely physically powerful and hardy, are good commanders of the Legion host, possess latent magic abilities as well.

I didn't say it was a Horde. However, they are definitely not rare; remember it's a daily quest, you kill them but they just keep coming endlessly.

Frost Wyrms are few in comparison to Infernals; they just simply keep raining down. Even if the wyrms were left alone by the doomguard there's no way that the frost wyrm is going to trash more than a few infernal; remember, they're falling as meteors here; left right and centre.

Granted, if left alone the wyrm will make a dent in the number of infernals being summoned in, but it will not significantly affect the Legion.

Magic is magic itself, what are you talking about? No spells are magic itself, simply the manipulation of it, which in this case the infernal is immune to.

If there is anything that has to do with magic (such as devouring it, in your case) then yes it is magical.

Who said their sitting around ,apprently the legion is constantly moving from world to world, conquering, their not just sitting about breeding and this is all guesses since we dont know how they do it, if their capable after their fel transformation ,we dont know a lot of information on their breeindg habits, ime sure a esteemed race of powerful maigcians will not sit about in the void breeding while Felhounds scamper about and with a big fat pitlord watching.

okie show me the entire quote please, and the page number of the source information.

Neither are you, as if with their size the Doomguard would take on, and their cumbersomeness in shape all thse massive stone constructs, hell is a Doomguard even capable of surviving Nerbuians knocking them from the sky, they would be taken down, and theres more than just Obsidion destroyers, frost wyrms and Gargoyles are fair anti-ar combatants as well.

They will not be difficult to cast, they are a massive AOE of massive range, hell they could just walk as well, fly, then walk when they hit the blockade then they would likely cause even more massive damage to the legion with AOE mana waves, thats if the Doom guards are not tied down by Nerubians etc etc.

But whats the point of making fire when you can create a massive void blast or else with the same or a more powerful effect? as i said, they can create or equel i bet almost any spelll when their using frost, shadow or poisonous death magic to similiar effect, Fireball-->Shadow bolt, lighting storm, Void blast. etc etc

Yes ime aware of most of hte Eredar information, how does this help you in any way? please explina, infact it sort of helps me as it says they consumed most of their world with their power, hell most of the mian race could be dead which is why their not numerous.

Okie can you quote me the page refrence, name of hte book and the entire quote of about a paragraph, or a few lines to show me the dragon encounter please, I need to know special mechanics, if the Dragon was at full speed, if it was surprised, I dont know these things so you need to show me please with actual quotations, ill accept this if you have all the information i just describe alongside the quote itself from the book to describe how the encounter went.

For all we know their equel in numbers and their not being harassed at all if their backed up by gargoyles and Frostwyrms.

Destroyers fit most of that bill, only destroyers can fire massive AOE blasts, are immune to magic and can fly......at the same time as draining casters and making htem useless, the Pitlords id be surprised if they even got into the thick of the battle, theyll be annhilated from range by spells, physical long range and cripple combinations.

no thats if the Eredar are left alone to do it and thats if you can prove the eredar have enough mana to constantly do it even without Destroyers annilhating their chances of doing anything. Also prove their few in comparison, their from the bones of dragons who have died in Northrend since the beginning of Azeroth, for all we know the dragons alone could outnumber all the heavy Legion forces.

As i said, Destroyers would devour them as well, their summoned, so devouring them will destroy them.

Thats devoid of logic comepltly, anything to do with maigc has to be magical, not at all, all it is is sucking magic in, no magic is hitting the Infernal at all, hes just losing his own and is dieing because of it, infernals will fall...they are a useless strategy for the limited time the magic users of the legion can even keep up with the scourge anyway.

Besides, Destroyers use mana as well and their mana is very limited (Considering the fact that the strategy used AGAINST them is to drain THEIR mana). At least if you judge by the two games they have been part of, which is the only thing we actually can base them on.

The Eredar magicians have mana shields. So first the destroyers will have to reach them trough all the hordes of demons that can attack air and that does not use magic. Then they will have to penetrate their mana shields and THEN can they attack the actual magicians.

Originally posted by Becci
Besides, Destroyers use mana as well and their mana is very limited (Considering the fact that the strategy used AGAINST them is to drain THEIR mana). At least if you judge by the two games they have been part of, which is the only thing we actually can base them on.

The Eredar magicians have mana shields. So first the destroyers will have to reach them trough all the hordes of demons that can attack air and that does not use magic. Then they will have to penetrate their mana shields and THEN can they attack the actual magicians.
Please show me mana shields stopping drain mana, if anything this will make their effects even more powerful and second theres nothing attacking the shield at all, the Eredar is just losing all its magic, and yes, they start of with limited mana but their draining spell doesnt cost anything, their AOE is hwat needs them to overload, when their draining about say 100-200 magic users (Shivas, Eredar, Nethrezime) using your numbers of how many maigc users there may be, how on earth do you think it will ever run out of magic? it will be constantly exploding, causing such destruction the legions one million will become a few hundreds of thousands in no time at all if theres many destroyers.

Originally posted by Utrigita
http://www.wowwiki.com/Devour_Magic

Magical in natur, AOE drain only drains mana.

They are the perfect soldiers when pitted against any being that is on there own level, and there level is significantly above the Ghouls and the Zombies which makes up the majority of the Scourge army. The Scourge can be slain BT, the Scourge requires one thing to function and that is it's spellcasters, else the Scourge is worthless.

He will not have any influence on the battle other then keeping the army that they marshal at the beginning alive new corpses will be the concerns of the necromancers liches etc that are already present on the battlefield.

Of Cause there are not as many of them as there are Felguards, and the other canonfodder, but they are more then the few handfulls you claimed. There are roughly as mentioned before 20 high ranking leaders of the Legion living on azeroth ore outland. Again dispel and highly resistant to magic will take care of that.

So I can begin drawing in the skills of each individual Eredar that the Legion has and say that those skills they all has? No not in this thread.

You did you said endless legions of abominations and Flesh Titans which they doesn't have and furthermore one Infernal/Abyssal is more then enough to handle any abomination and Flesh Titans and you still lack proving there is more then one.

Of cause it will drain them but then the Destroyer will go up in smoke. And nothing about them reanimating they simply explode and destroyes themselves in the progress i draw this conclusion since a Druid(healer) and a Tank can easily take a Destroyer down in the gameplay and there is no ressurrection involved, furthermore it doesn't cast drain while it's engaged in combat apparently.

Please show me where it stats that they explode and then arise again and again, if that was the case the Dragons would have never defeated them.

yes ime fully aware of that....ofc it does, and Devuor magic destorys summons like infernals...

it requires spellcasters? not really, it requires the LK power to keep mosto f htem up, hes the will of the scourge, the liches didnt raise 250k in glacia, as it clearly states in the lore LK makes "most" of the undead and hes untouchable in this battle os technically most are not able to be completly destroyted if their under the power of "will not die" rules that some scourge may have. And it will be Flesh giants and Abominations who will smash Fel guards to pieces and ive still not convinced, you have said the felguard are superior for what reasons? just because their large with swords? ......wonderful

fair enough

But it wont because theres not as many of them, you have 20 high ranking leaders which are not in this battle ,considering most Pit lords that are powerful that we know of are leaders their not in this battle, so we have the rare number, and as isaid, how can you cast anything when your weak on the ground, then your assuming he will not just simply be recast/swarmed by creatures.

Its something to notify how varied Necromancers are and hes not the only one.....there are many necromancers in there with varied powers, i think most of you are underestimating necromancers, Naxxramas alone shows their huge variety of powers from Nauture, corrupting, shadow and even elemental like ground eruptions. And no, your not, but Becci and Dark C are stating spelsl Eradar have used so w/e

hmm can you quote this, if i did say it I didnt mean endless flesh titans, Abominations ime not sure of, their everywhere and Flesh giants, and wtf? infernals.....infernals would get am ajor ass woopin from Flesh titna, its massive, Abyssals are not summonable and ime not sure they are on the Legions side, they usually seem to work for Illidan himself or so their leader Supremeus does. A Flesh titan would solo most of the legio nas i said before with his polarity power.

No they dont explode, if youve not played the game then please do not assume you know what its talking about, Destroyers themselves do not explode, their AOE around them explodes, by explodes it means their energy output flies out, ime surprised nobody on this forum has ever played the 20 man i belive ruins of Ahn quiraj, maybe ill look for vids. Also dont use gameplay lol.....

They dont explode themselves, youve got it all wrong, their energy blasts out of them, thats the whole reason why you need to have them drained of their mana, because if it reaches max, BANG your raid gets smashed up bad...otherwise we would just let it drain our mana and let it die....which ofc is not the case..

Originally posted by Burning thought
yes ime fully aware of that....ofc it does, and Devuor magic destorys summons like infernals...

No it doesnt

Infernals are immune to magical attacks and Devour magic is a magical attack.. I don't see any logic in that conclusion.

Yes to keep them up when then the battle begin, when they die however it will be the Liches Necromancers etc that are going to supply the energy to keep the corpses that has fallen animated. Again you are overlooking that we at the Front has both the Infernals Doomguards and Pitlords. Because they have a brain to think with, because they are described as the perfect soldier, because they fight tactical and well organised the scourge main force does none of these things.

Again how do you know there isn't many of them? They isn't like the Liches, they are breed because we have only seen at max 20 it doesn't mean that there numbers isn't substantial higher then that. We also know the Average Pitlord which is powerful as well, which is the reason Archimonde recruited them in the first place, if they where a bunch of weaklings and there had been only 20 he wouldn't have bothered. Again he can dispel and is highly resistant to magic, also the Felguards will move to assure that the others doesn't swarm him, which they btw will have a hard time with seen as how they are outnumbered.

Those are average spells at the disposal of the Eredar Warlocks, hence they can be used that a single necromancer that uses Fire doesn't mean that the entire bunch can use it.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Guessing they are immune to even dragon breath (i dont think so, nothing states that) then the endless legions of Abominations ,Flesh giants and god knows what else will come forth.

There are certainly nothing that points towards endless legions, The infernals can be summoned with ease again how many flesh Titans are there? http://www.wowwiki.com/Abyssal A flesh Titan solo the entire legion? The Eredars would down him/them by themselves.

Sorry what? I doesn't assume that a Flesh Titan can solo the entire Legion... ans that I take WoWwiki's word higher then your own sorry, unless you can provide with a Video that clearly proofs that when the Destroyers capacity to absorb mana is overloaded then it explodes but stays intact. You are using Gameplay to justify the Destroyers Immunity to magic a weakness that is none existant in lore, so please don't lol about me using it.

Provide the proof please.

Originally posted by Burning thought
maybe ill look for vids. Also dont use gameplay lol.....

Those two sentences really didnt go well together..

Originally posted by Utrigita
Infernals are immune to magical attacks and Devour magic is a magical attack.. I don't see any logic in that conclusion.

Yes to keep them up when then the battle begin, when they die however it will be the Liches Necromancers etc that are going to supply the energy to keep the corpses that has fallen animated. Again you are overlooking that we at the Front has both the Infernals Doomguards and Pitlords. Because they have a brain to think with, because they are described as the perfect soldier, because they fight tactical and well organised the scourge main force does none of these things.

Again how do you know there isn't many of them? They isn't like the Liches, they are breed because we have only seen at max 20 it doesn't mean that there numbers isn't substantial higher then that. We also know the Average Pitlord which is powerful as well, which is the reason Archimonde recruited them in the first place, if they where a bunch of weaklings and there had been only 20 he wouldn't have bothered. Again he can dispel and is highly resistant to magic, also the Felguards will move to assure that the others doesn't swarm him, which they btw will have a hard time with seen as how they are outnumbered.

Those are average spells at the disposal of the Eredar Warlocks, hence they can be used that a single necromancer that uses Fire doesn't mean that the entire bunch can use it.



There are certainly nothing that points towards endless legions, The infernals can be summoned with ease again how many flesh Titans are there? http://www.wowwiki.com/Abyssal A flesh Titan solo the entire legion? The Eredars would down him/them by themselves.

Sorry what? I doesn't assume that a Flesh Titan can solo the entire Legion... ans that I take WoWwiki's word higher then your own sorry, unless you can provide with a Video that clearly proofs that when the Destroyers capacity to absorb mana is overloaded then it explodes but stays intact. You are using Gameplay to justify the Destroyers Immunity to magic a weakness that is none existant in lore, so please don't lol about me using it.

Provide the proof please.

quote and bold the point that says its magical please, but its pointless, it already says it destroyers summons.

Well the few that die will be kept up by Necromncers and liches who will be safely at the back of the lines, safe and sound. Infernals wiped out by anti summon devouring, Pitlords and Doomguards will not get anywhere, not when their crippled on the ground, also choose your forces, are there going to be most Doomgurads in the air or on the ground? make up your mind. No,the scourge have the most powerful mind in the warcraft universe empowering their will.....and being able to think singulary is pointless when your a big hukling dum@ss who will run in legions to find weakspots, their weak and stupid.

As ive said before, wheres a female pitlord? have you seen one yet? for all you know they are all back home or killed by the fel energies, either way we know for a fact weve not seen one unless youve got a quote somewhere, theres no baby pitlords running around that ive seen, their just a hellbent army which is likely their weakness. We know for a fact their very rare in comparison to other forces in the legion. Youve not explained how a crippled figuire can dispel....iif you break a mages arms and legs and jawbone for instance, he cannot speak or utter a spell or do handmovements for it. Felguards? lol, first your still assuming they outnumber the scourge, we dont know the full number of the scourge, we know that theres 250k in Glaciar alone however, even 250k of superior more powerful forces with better usage of powers will>>1 million, most of which has been shown to be Felguards which are pathetic, most will die to Destroyer AOE.

Well these are the average spells a Necromancer uses, if you look at most of the other Necromancers in Naxx, you can see they also use various powers such as nature (poison) corrosive damage, various types of shadow, death, so many spells at their control.

I said abominations, flesh giants and god knows what else.....so far theres a known one Flesh titan, thats all the scourge need.

Right yeh...while he polarises them all and BOOM!, half the legion are dead or at least the ground forces, id like to see Eredar do anything while their in pieces.

Ime not assuming that, i know a single one would solo most of the legion. WoWwiki does not contradict me, it says they explode, and ill continue that with "mana and energy" nothing says the things themselves break at all..your assuming that part utrigos, a part I know from personal experiance. Yes thats the thing, you see ime using abilities, abilities are canon in games, but your using gameplay mechanics, as in, how a tank in the game can stop one.


27yVLn3wIt0

see the vid? now lets ask ourselves some questions, perhaps the raid wants Moam to survive....we all love him, so we mana drain him to keep him alive while hes trying to mana drain us because hes a suicidal emo.

This video shows his explosion, HE himself does not explode into pieces, however he explodes into a massive AOE mana blast.

Well to be honest, i dont need any proof, it says they explode and they do....your the one assuming they fall into pieces afterwards. Their massive AOE explosion that will constantly be going on, will turn the Felguard numbers from hundreds of thousands to a few thousands in minutes. Also please use some logic, answer me this, why do raid groups drain the mana of a Destroyer before it reaches its peak if it dies at its peak? surely they would just let it die......oh no ofc not that because it doesnt.

Originally posted by Nozdormu
Those two sentences really didnt go well together..

As i explained to Utrigos....abilities are fine, gameplay mechanics however are not.

Originally posted by Burning thought
As i explained to Utrigos....abilities are fine, gameplay mechanics however are not.
I've read all your talk about the flesh titan.. He really isnt as good as you make him seem to be.. Whatever make you think he could solo most of the legion is beyond my understanding..

Because I assume you've fought him, right? You have been part of the actual encounter, right?

Originally posted by Nozdormu
I've read all your talk about the flesh titan.. He really isnt as good as you make him seem to be.. Whatever make you think he could solo most of the legion is beyond my understanding..

Because I assume you've fought him, right? You have been part of the actual encounter, right?

sure he is, polarity alone would blow half the legion to the otherside of the void, imagine half a million demons all exploding at once....then we have the fact the guy himself is an enormous lightning conducting fiend.

Ive fought him, you have to be away from various beings in the group because of his polarity weapon, if he polarises your group and you stand next to your m8s you end up blown up. The legion are always close to eachother.

First of all: Polarity Switch deals damage over time.. it is not an "instant pop", unlike the finger of death from the eredar warlocks..

Second of all: Burning Legion also has creatures with Polarity Switch.. Since they also have higher numbers, I guess it is THEY who blast the SCOURGE to the other side of the void, since appearently Polarity Switch can destroy the entire legions with one single Flesh Titan, then I can only imagine how efficient the Legion will be since they have numerous..

Thirdly: Unlike the Legion, the Scourge has nothing that is immune to magic.. You also need to keep in mind that polarity switch may, yes, kill the target, but also strengthen them.. A positive positive switch strengthen the opponent, while a negative positive harm them, then yet again, a negative negative also boost the opponent.. It's not as good as you claim it to be.. it's a 33% chance that they will pop (with damage over period of time), since a negative negative or positive positive will boost the target and not damage it.. Three various combos can be made, where two of them result in a boost, while only one in damage.. The Flesh Titan has a 66% chance to boost the target rather than destroying it..

Taking in consideration that the Legion has far more endurant soldiers than the Scourge, they can bring down the few, or even one Flesh Titan without problem..


Remember that the polarity switch is random.. I'd hate to be that Flesh Titan if a bunch of doom guards or eredar warlocks all got positive charges..

Yes, I have taken in consideration that the Scourge too would be able to get positive enhancements, but an eredar warlock defeats a scourge lich hands down anytime.. This point isnt even arguable, since, unlike the liches, the eredar warlocks only has to lift a finger to kill a target.. The eredar warlock has also shown more impressive qualities of magic.. This as well can not be denied.. and again, unlike the Scourge, the Legion has magic immune creatures..

Originally posted by Nozdormu
First of all: Polarity Switch deals damage over time.. it is not an "instant pop", unlike the finger of death from the eredar warlocks..

Second of all: Burning Legion also has creatures with Polarity Switch.. Since they also have higher numbers, I guess it is THEY who blast the SCOURGE to the other side of the void, since appearently Polarity Switch can destroy the entire legions with one single Flesh Titan, then I can only imagine how efficient the Legion will be since they have numerous..

Thirdly: Unlike the Legion, the Scourge has nothing that is immune to magic.. You also need to keep in mind that polarity switch may, yes, kill the target, but also strengthen them.. A positive positive switch strengthen the opponent, while a negative positive harm them, then yet again, a negative negative also boost the opponent.. It's not as good as you claim it to be.. it's a 33% chance that they will pop (with damage over period of time), since a negative negative or positive positive will boost the target and not damage it.. Three various combos can be made, where two of them result in a boost, while only one in damage.. The Flesh Titan has a 66% chance to boost the target rather than destroying it..

Taking in consideration that the Legion has far more endurant soldiers than the Scourge, they can bring down the few, or even one Flesh Titan without problem..


Remember that the polarity switch is random.. I'd hate to be that Flesh Titan if a bunch of doom guards or eredar warlocks all got positive charges..

Yes, I have taken in consideration that the Scourge too would be able to get positive enhancements, but an eredar warlock defeats a scourge lich hands down anytime.. This point isnt even arguable, since, unlike the liches, the eredar warlocks only has to lift a finger to kill a target.. The eredar warlock has also shown more impressive qualities of magic.. This as well can not be denied.. and again, unlike the Scourge, the Legion has magic immune creatures..

The finger attacks one target, the polarity switch affects ALL targets who are of the opposite charge with a massive blast of nature damage (ouch), also its not magic, its sceintific, where does it say its magic? every 5 seconds to all beings in 10 yards, if Thaddius postiively charged a group then the group next to it neatively, they will all disintrrate and die in seconds only, and yes...they get a bonus, so what? its a bonus in damage, if its melee soldiers and Thaddius or whatever Flesh titan is at long range the crippled and weakened pit lords who are cursed by Necromancers, the Doom lords, they will all perish in a massive chain reaction.

Nothing state them definaltey having higher numbers, and no, its the numbers that actually work against the Legion and their formations, the legion in every episode have huge block formations of their armies, this will smash them to pieces, but as weve seen, magic users of the scourge usually dont stand amongst their thralls, so even if the legion do have polarity charge it would not be as effective, not to mention nature damage harms legion most of all as we all know...second, can you show me the legion characters who have polarity charge?

Destroyers are magic immune....also as i said, nothing states to me from the Flesh titans that they are magical, their animation is the only magical aspect, they use machinery and electricity.

Ime talking about the 10 yard polarity charge, thats what will destroy the legion.

Not at all, because the legion haev nothing that would take on a Flesh titan, what makes you think the legion are more endurant than a flesh titan? hell evne more so, the thing is a range unit, the Scourge have far too many diffrent soldiers that can completly incapaictate anything wortth speaking of, Pitlords/Doom guards can be crippled/webbed , infernals summons devoured, their casters all drained of their mana if their not dead and the large AOE explosinos of Destroyers who are maigc immune btw.

The positive and Negative charges will effect the legion and they will not be running around, knowing who is what polarity, they will all explode and dissolve over time, in a few minutes, a single Flesh titan would have killed every non magic immune burning legion warrior or all of them if you cannot prove the "magic" element in the polarity.

What if the target is already dead? thats the thing with the scourge, people are overlooking their not alive in the first place, their simply animations, they do not fall so easily, a ghoul would last in action far longer than any felguard, also Eredar warlocks need mana to cast, the scourge have Destroyers to stop this, Liches are not as weak as you keep calling them, as it said, "tremendously powerful" sorcerors, empowered by the Lich King himself...although they may not have access to as many "forms" and "schools" of magic, they are by no means outmatched so badly.

Since the rest is pointless and I dont feel like wasting time, I'll just point out this:



No..



Yes..



No..



No..



No.. We only know it harmed Archimonde, and it wasnt only nature damage.. It was the essence of the World Tree..

Originally posted by Burning thought
quote and bold the point that says its magical please, but its pointless, it already says it destroyers summons.

Well the few that die will be kept up by Necromncers and liches who will be safely at the back of the lines, safe and sound. Infernals wiped out by anti summon devouring, Pitlords and Doomguards will not get anywhere, not when their crippled on the ground, also choose your forces, are there going to be most Doomgurads in the air or on the ground? make up your mind. No,the scourge have the most powerful mind in the warcraft universe empowering their will.....and being able to think singulary is pointless when your a big hukling dum@ss who will run in legions to find weakspots, their weak and stupid.

As ive said before, wheres a female pitlord? have you seen one yet? for all you know they are all back home or killed by the fel energies, either way we know for a fact weve not seen one unless youve got a quote somewhere, theres no baby pitlords running around that ive seen, their just a hellbent army which is likely their weakness. We know for a fact their very rare in comparison to other forces in the legion. Youve not explained how a crippled figuire can dispel....iif you break a mages arms and legs and jawbone for instance, he cannot speak or utter a spell or do handmovements for it. Felguards? lol, first your still assuming they outnumber the scourge, we dont know the full number of the scourge, we know that theres 250k in Glaciar alone however, even 250k of superior more powerful forces with better usage of powers will>>1 million, most of which has been shown to be Felguards which are pathetic, most will die to Destroyer AOE.

Well these are the average spells a Necromancer uses, if you look at most of the other Necromancers in Naxx, you can see they also use various powers such as nature (poison) corrosive damage, various types of shadow, death, so many spells at their control.

I said abominations, flesh giants and god knows what else.....so far theres a known one Flesh titan, thats all the scourge need.

Right yeh...while he polarises them all and BOOM!, half the legion are dead or at least the ground forces, id like to see Eredar do anything while their in pieces.

Ime not assuming that, i know a single one would solo most of the legion. WoWwiki does not contradict me, it says they explode, and ill continue that with "mana and energy" nothing says the things themselves break at all..your assuming that part utrigos, a part I know from personal experiance. Yes thats the thing, you see ime using abilities, abilities are canon in games, but your using gameplay mechanics, as in, how a tank in the game can stop one.


27yVLn3wIt0

see the vid? now lets ask ourselves some questions, perhaps the raid wants Moam to survive....we all love him, so we mana drain him to keep him alive while hes trying to mana drain us because hes a suicidal emo.

This video shows his explosion, HE himself does not explode into pieces, however he explodes into a massive AOE mana blast.

Well to be honest, i dont need any proof, it says they explode and they do....your the one assuming they fall into pieces afterwards. Their massive AOE explosion that will constantly be going on, will turn the Felguard numbers from hundreds of thousands to a few thousands in minutes. Also please use some logic, answer me this, why do raid groups drain the mana of a Destroyer before it reaches its peak if it dies at its peak? surely they would just let it die......oh no ofc not that because it doesnt.



As i explained to Utrigos....abilities are fine, gameplay mechanics however are not.

It's magical because it requires mana to perform, and again simply because the Infernals are a summoned unit it doesn't make them vulnerable to devour magic because devour magic is magical and the Infernals are immune.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Devour_Magic

Those few that will die... They will die in higher numbers most notebly the Ghouls and Zombies which I would like to see proof of can contend with a Felguard that has numerous describtions attached to him about just how good a basic soldier he is. No they wouldn't because they are immune to magic. The Doomguards are highly resistant to magic along with the Pitlords and both can cast dispel. There forces of the Doomguards can be both on the ground and in the air, there are more then enough for that. The rest of that part is not even worth commenting on, since it's a personal opinion.

So because we have never seen a female Pit Lord it means that they doesn't exist, okay even though we know that the Pit lord are breed... That most likely because they doesn't get involved in battle and again the showings of the Pitlords have not been many, A cripple http://www.wowwiki.com/Cripple doesn't break your bones ore anything else of what you said, so the dispel will be no problem to cast. One million confirmed Demons are a lot more then 250.000 confirmed undead. Also the Felguards are the canon fodder the ones that drives the legions foothold forward like a relentless force of nature, if they where few they wouldn't be canon fodder and two wouldn't be consideret a relentless force. And again the Lich King will only keep them animated nothing else.

So all Necromancers can cast the spells you are refering too seems strange since http://www.wowwiki.com/Necromancer not a single reference to them having there normal abilities beyond the Necromancy aspect.

And endless hordes which actually was my primary request from where do you get the impression that they are endless?

If you want to believe that be my guest. And Nozdurmo has explained why that wouldn't be the case.

Wait you are using manadrain on a Obsidian destroyer that you claimed was immune to magic along with numerous other spells as shown in the video??? What are then stopping the Eredar from blasting that damm thing straight out of the sky since it apparently based on your own words and the showing in the video isn't immune to magic.

Keep in mind that crippe also is a "single target" ability.. Are the liches going to put a cripple on evern single one of the millions Legion soldiers? Cut a few hundred thousands out of that, since a considerable amount is immune to magic or those kind of effects specificly..

Originally posted by Burning thought
Who said their sitting around ,apprently the legion is constantly moving from world to world, conquering their not just sitting about breeding and this is all guesses since we dont know how they do it, if their capable after their fel transformation we dont know a lot of information on their breeindg habits,
Yes, they are, but in the meantime it does not rob them of the ability to reproduce or multiply. As for breeding methods, it's undocumented other than the fel hounds who simply just shimmer and turn into two felhounds or more; much like cells and amoeba do, but they do have some method of reproducing otherwise they would have died out by now. The Draenei were technically what the Eredar used to be physically, and they can breed just fine.

Who says that all they do is breed? It's one among other things that they do.

You'll have to ask Nozdormu for that information, he can simply scan it for you. I cannot, seeing as how I don't have the book in front of me right now. I can recall situations, deeds, and to a point, quotations. That's it.

Are you referring to the size of an obsidian destroyer? They're larger than an individual doom guard, but with the numbers that the doom guard have, their size is insigificant.
http://dkpfiles.com/reforged/files/Moam.jpg

Nope, but the webbing has a long cooldown and takes some time to produce again. Assuming the unlikeliness of the webbing all finding and hitting their mark somehow, the dent in the doomguard numbers will not be significantly high. Besides, they can easily fight just as well on the ground, if not better.

Frost Wyrms are powerful and would take down many doomguard, but they will eventually be overpowered by numbers, considering that they are not in any great numbers. Gargoyles are far more numerous, on par with the Legion's doomguard, but the doomguard is more than twice as strong/tough as a gargoyle. Look at their stats on battle.net.

A 20 yard area of effect is not "massive". 60 yards is, but channeled warlock magic works farther than that, which means they'll have to fly further in order to reach them.

http://www.battle.net/war3/undead/units/destroyer.shtml

Are you suggesting that the obsidian destroyers bypass the blockade by attempting to move through the entire Legion host to get to the sorcerers at the back? They'd have more luck trying to go by air.

You're thinking offensively, not defensively.

The fact that they are restrained to two fields of magic only puts them at a severe disadvantage, because it gives them much less options to counterspell if they're attacked by a school of unfamiliar magic.

I meant to actually put the quote in the post above referring to the Eredar.

Anyways, the fact that they consumed the world with their power doesn't mean anything other than the fact that their magic was so powerful as to consume their world with it. The Draenei were the barest minority of the Eredar race. As described in the prologue of the Rise of the Horde novel, Prophet Velen took with him a handful of faithful eredar followers and refugees to be whisked away by the Naaru.

Actually, the few eredar mentioned or featured in WoW are those of officer rank, and they are not numerous. Shartuul, for example.

You see plenty of eredar around WoW, for example the sorcerers in the Dead Scar on Quel'Thalas, and those ones populating the Arcatraz. They're not many compared to the overall influence on Azeroth and Outland by the Legion (which is significant but not enough to condone a true invasion.)

No, as I said before I do not have the book with me; Nozdormu does. Ask him for that. I can recall occurences and quotations to a point.

Korialstrasz was not in full speed at the time, but they were definitely hurrying back to the host to try and be of some help. No, he was not surprised actually, while flying through the mist he spotted a Doomguard that saw him back and attempted to escape back to its brethren. Korialstrasz pursued, and was assaulted head on by a very large number of doomguard.

Quotations for the other occurence, when Broxigar accompanied Malfurion and Krasus on their attempt to steal the Demon Soul:
Krasus (To Malfurion): "Three of the doomguard in the skies above. I intend to take them on, with your help."

"Unlike Illidan, and even Rhonin at times, the dragon mage did not make elaborate displays out of his spellwork. So it was that the first, then the second demon simply exploded, their innards raining out across the land. But as he had feared, the third demon escaped his spell."

Destroyers? No, as you said earlier they were not numerous in any way.

Gargoyles, yes, but they're much weaker than the doomguard are one on one.
Frost wyrms were already accounted for.

They aren't as physically durable as doomguard at all.
When in comparison to battle.net's Warcraft 3 stats, they're not even that much more durable than an Orc Grunt.

That apparently don't even do that much damage.


But not immune to blades, and doomguard can fly too. According to MoM, Obsidian Destroyers are not masters of flight.

Other than a latent mass dispel (which is listed as their main weapon) and mana regeneration as an effect, there doesn't appear to be anything on a mana burn or drain.

http://www.battle.net/war3/undead/units/destroyer.shtml

Moam from AQ20 does a mana drain, but it does not burn for any damage (until he fills up) and the mana taken does not make a caster useless. Besides, Eredar could simply drain their mana back from another source of power, like the banshees or necromancers, who cannot replenish their mana so easily.

Originally posted by Utrigita
It's magical because it requires mana to perform, and again simply because the Infernals are a summoned unit it doesn't make them vulnerable to devour magic because devour magic is magical and the Infernals are immune.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Devour_Magic

Those few that will die... They will die in higher numbers most notebly the Ghouls and Zombies which I would like to see proof of can contend with a Felguard that has numerous describtions attached to him about just how good a basic soldier he is. No they wouldn't because they are immune to magic. The Doomguards are highly resistant to magic along with the Pitlords and both can cast dispel. There forces of the Doomguards can be both on the ground and in the air, there are more then enough for that. The rest of that part is not even worth commenting on, since it's a personal opinion.

So because we have never seen a female Pit Lord it means that they doesn't exist, okay even though we know that the Pit lord are breed... That most likely because they doesn't get involved in battle and again the showings of the Pitlords have not been many, A cripple http://www.wowwiki.com/Cripple doesn't break your bones ore anything else of what you said, so the dispel will be no problem to cast. One million confirmed Demons are a lot more then 250.000 confirmed undead. Also the Felguards are the canon fodder the ones that drives the legions foothold forward like a relentless force of nature, if they where few they wouldn't be canon fodder and two wouldn't be consideret a relentless force. And again the Lich King will only keep them animated nothing else.

So all Necromancers can cast the spells you are refering too seems strange since http://www.wowwiki.com/Necromancer not a single reference to them having there normal abilities beyond the Necromancy aspect.

And endless hordes which actually was my primary request from where do you get the impression that they are endless?

If you want to believe that be my guest. And Nozdurmo has explained why that wouldn't be the case.

Wait you are using manadrain on a Obsidian destroyer that you claimed was immune to magic along with numerous other spells as shown in the video??? What are then stopping the Eredar from blasting that damm thing straight out of the sky since it apparently based on your own words and the showing in the video isn't immune to magic.

Wonderful, thats the weakness of the Felhunters you see, they use magic, show me the Obsidion Destroyers version please...ime pretty sure that A: using magic to suck magic from a being is not worried by spell immunity not to mention that Devour magic is not actually hitting th Infernal, its sucking his essence, its no projectile B:

http://www.battle.net/war3/undead/units/destroyer.shtml

heres the obisdion destroyers version, jolly good aint it? no mana cost...its not magical, it feeds the devourer, hes merely opening his mouth and yummy yummy yum, nice hot tasy Infernal for dinner.


A few notifactions of how good they are doesnt mean anything, the undead scourge have been called an undying army, look in the RPG book MOM at the undead abilities, page 156-159 some of their abilities and powers are quite incredible for both attack and survivablity.

They will try and cast dispel, but then because their crippled means they will find not only difficulty when their lying on the ground hardly able to move...no the spel ldoesnt break them otherwise it wouldnt wear off, it would give you the feeling of you being crippled as the spell implies however so you may as well be brokwn physically for the duration.

Can Noz give me notifaction of Doomguard numbers please with actual quotes of how many there are.

Can you show me where it says Pitlords are bred now, sure on their home world but now? along with the amy? until i see evidence or backing for any of these assumptions that i personally think are ridiculous, females following along with the burning legion indeed.

Obviously your not looking at it, look at the notable Necromancers section,

Shadow, Death, nature, Demonology, Frost, Arcane

The guys are hardly limited at all.....

Well mianly because they can rise again....more enedless or infnite than a million strong thats for sure...

WoW balance does not concern me, the abilitis of the destroyer as ive shown you and Nozmordu, and among them is mana drain, consumtion, and spell immunity, if the Destroyers need to have balance in WoW such as removing their spell immuntiy then that is none of my concern, gameplay ftl, that video was sowing you how they explode, not themselves.

Originally posted by Nozdormu
Since the rest is pointless and I dont feel like wasting time, I'll just point out this:



No..



Yes..



No..



No..



No.. We only know it harmed Archimonde, and it wasnt only nature damage.. It was the essence of the World Tree..

Good, you dont have no points, its time for you to concede then...

oh and:

http://www.battle.net/war3/undead/units/destroyer.shtml

Ime pretty damn sure it says Spell immunity on there, does it not?......didnt play TFT did you hm?

Originally posted by Nozdormu
Keep in mind that crippe also is a "single target" ability.. Are the liches going to put a cripple on evern single one of the millions Legion soldiers? Cut a few hundred thousands out of that, since a considerable amount is immune to magic or those kind of effects specificly..

No, the one million legion soldiers (or less considering WoTA losses) are not all a threat, hounds and Felguards are nothing, not necessary, Doom gards and Pit lords however are.....so show me where it says Pitlords and Doom guards numbers please. Youve even got a scanner it seems.

Only active Legion able to fight are summoned anyways.

Oh, but those are notable Necromancers, just like human Kel'Thuzad....there's probably a lot more than those that are known that have special skills, but their numbers simply cannot match those of the Eredar and Nathrezim put together.

Death and shadow are pretty much the same thing. Look at which tree "Shadow Word: Death" is in for Priests.
And demonology would be a little quirky, since well....you're summoning demons to fight demons. There would be some trickiness into working that out.

Originally posted by Burning thought
http://www.battle.net/war3/undead/units/destroyer.shtml

Okey

Originally posted by DarkC
Yes, they are, but in the meantime it does not rob them of the ability to reproduce or multiply. As for breeding methods, it's undocumented other than the fel hounds who simply just shimmer and turn into two felhounds or more; much like cells and amoeba do, but they do have some method of reproducing otherwise they would have died out by now. The Draenei were technically what the Eredar used to be physically, and they can breed just fine.

Who says that all they do is breed? It's one among other things that they do.

You'll have to ask Nozdormu for that information, he can simply scan it for you. I cannot, seeing as how I don't have the book in front of me right now. I can recall situations, deeds, and to a point, quotations. That's it.

Are you referring to the size of an obsidian destroyer? They're larger than an individual doom guard, but with the numbers that the doom guard have, their size is insigificant.
http://dkpfiles.com/reforged/files/Moam.jpg

Nope, but the webbing has a long cooldown and takes some time to produce again. Assuming the unlikeliness of the webbing all finding and hitting their mark somehow, the dent in the doomguard numbers will not be significantly high. Besides, they can easily fight just as well on the ground, if not better.

Frost Wyrms are powerful and would take down many doomguard, but they will eventually be overpowered by numbers, considering that they are not in any great numbers. Gargoyles are far more numerous, on par with the Legion's doomguard, but the doomguard is more than twice as strong/tough as a gargoyle. Look at their stats on battle.net.

A 20 yard area of effect is not "massive". 60 yards is, but channeled warlock magic works farther than that, which means they'll have to fly further in order to reach them.

http://www.battle.net/war3/undead/units/destroyer.shtml

Are you suggesting that the obsidian destroyers bypass the blockade by attempting to move through the entire Legion host to get to the sorcerers at the back? They'd have more luck trying to go by air.

You're thinking offensively, not defensively.

The fact that they are restrained to two fields of magic only puts them at a severe disadvantage, because it gives them much less options to counterspell if they're attacked by a school of unfamiliar magic.

I meant to actually put the quote in the post above referring to the Eredar.

Anyways, the fact that they consumed the world with their power doesn't mean anything other than the fact that their magic was so powerful as to consume their world with it. The Draenei were the barest minority of the Eredar race. As described in the prologue of the Rise of the Horde novel, Prophet Velen took with him a handful of faithful eredar followers and refugees to be whisked away by the Naaru.

Actually, the few eredar mentioned or featured in WoW are those of officer rank, and they are not numerous. Shartuul, for example.

You see plenty of eredar around WoW, for example the sorcerers in the Dead Scar on Quel'Thalas, and those ones populating the Arcatraz. They're not many compared to the overall influence on Azeroth and Outland by the Legion (which is significant but not enough to condone a true invasion.)

No, as I said before I do not have the book with me; Nozdormu does. Ask him for that. I can recall occurences and quotations to a point.

Korialstrasz was not in full speed at the time, but they were definitely hurrying back to the host to try and be of some help. No, he was not surprised actually, while flying through the mist he spotted a Doomguard that saw him back and attempted to escape back to its brethren. Korialstrasz pursued, and was assaulted head on by a very large number of doomguard.

Quotations for the other occurence, when Broxigar accompanied Malfurion and Krasus on their attempt to steal the Demon Soul:
Krasus (To Malfurion): "Three of the doomguard in the skies above. I intend to take them on, with your help."

"Unlike Illidan, and even Rhonin at times, the dragon mage did not make elaborate displays out of his spellwork. So it was that the first, then the second demon simply exploded, their innards raining out across the land. But as he had feared, the third demon escaped his spell."

Destroyers? No, as you said earlier they were not numerous in any way.

Gargoyles, yes, but they're much weaker than the doomguard are one on one.
Frost wyrms were already accounted for.

They aren't as physically durable as doomguard at all.
When in comparison to battle.net's Warcraft 3 stats, they're not even that much more durable than an Orc Grunt.

That apparently don't even do that much damage.


But not immune to blades, and doomguard can fly too. According to MoM, Obsidian Destroyers are not masters of flight.

Other than a latent mass dispel (which is listed as their main weapon) and mana regeneration as an effect, there doesn't appear to be anything on a mana burn or drain.

http://www.battle.net/war3/undead/units/destroyer.shtml

Moam from AQ20 does a mana drain, but it does not burn for any damage (until he fills up) and the mana taken does not make a caster useless. Besides, Eredar could simply drain their mana back from another source of power, like the banshees or necromancers, who cannot replenish their mana so easily.

okie so Felhounds can breed. Eredar are not Draenei, the Eredar are corrupted fel versions, also weve seen Draenei women.

okie, plz Noz

That is Moam, larger than the average Obsidion destroyer slightly, Obsidion destroyers are roughply a little smaller than Doom Guards.

Theres more Nerubians than there are Doom guards thats for sure, they are an actual race, been alive or dead (in the scourge command) for eons, and the LK not only gained their enormous city and them after winning the war of the spider, but also their dead and crypts. There would be so many Nerubians, able to just web up the doom guards, or magic users to cripple the Doom guards etc etc

Also almost forgot about the impressive cryptlrods with their locust swarm eating the legion alive, their huge mandable impale attack smashing through ranks, the things are also heavily armoured and covered in spikes.

Numbers? again I would like Noz to show me these numbers now he can scan, but ill humour you. The Frostwyrms as ive explained would be easily the same numbers if not close to the Doom guards, the Doom guards are still not real swarmers, not like Felguard.

The newer WoW obsidion destroyers have obviously retconned that since they have infnite range...so they could be draining from the front or back of the actual army most of the legion if not all. their explosions would kill all non spell immunes in seconds, the legion would dwindle massively.

Why would they have better luck? their massive stone constructs, they would wade through Felguards, Pitlords wouldnt pose a problem crippled on the ground, dont forget the entire scourge, Flesh giants/Abominations and the inumeralbe dead, not to mention the Legions dieing rising up....it would be an enormous swarm with Destroyers in the middle.

As ive shown to Utrigos, the Necromancers nor liches are restrained much at all.

its important because if their world was destroyed, their homeworld...theres going to be a lot of dead Eredar and no homeworld that could possibly supply the legion either if even thats a possible notion depending on its distance and if they have their own ability to singulary travel the nether.

That quote shows how the Doomguards resistence to maigc is not that profound, and as i thought, not moving at full speeds......but thanks for the information, ill ask nozmordu again, poor guy has so much to find if he can be bothered.

So your comparing HP stats? "sigh"......

Thats the orb of annhilation, ime talking about the Mana discharge.

Ofcourse not masters but a bonus to say Pitloeds, iwas descrbing how much more useful they are in comaprison to them.

Obsidion destroters in WoW have mass Drain like Moam and dispel.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Obsidian_Destroyer



I belive taking mana from others requires mana nad yes a si said earlier, i was wrong about the mana burn, it doesnt burn the casters, just drains them, the Eredar will be in a massive disadvantage, especially if it starts slamming into the poor and helpless manaless casters or fireing orbs of chaos, the Eredar will be annhilated by the nature damage as well.

Destroyers are crappy flyers though.. That'll be their downfall..

Originally posted by Burning thought
Wonderful, thats the weakness of the Felhunters you see, they use magic, show me the Obsidion Destroyers version please...ime pretty sure that A: using magic to suck magic from a being is not worried by spell immunity not to mention that Devour magic is not actually hitting th Infernal, its sucking his essence, its no projectile B:

http://www.battle.net/war3/undead/units/destroyer.shtml

heres the obisdion destroyers version, jolly good aint it? no mana cost...its not magical, it feeds the devourer, hes merely opening his mouth and yummy yummy yum, nice hot tasy Infernal for dinner.


A few notifactions of how good they are doesnt mean anything, the undead scourge have been called an undying army, look in the RPG book MOM at the undead abilities, page 156-159 some of their abilities and powers are quite incredible for both attack and survivablity.

They will try and cast dispel, but then because their crippled means they will find not only difficulty when their lying on the ground hardly able to move...no the spel ldoesnt break them otherwise it wouldnt wear off, it would give you the feeling of you being crippled as the spell implies however so you may as well be brokwn physically for the duration.

Can Noz give me notifaction of Doomguard numbers please with actual quotes of how many there are.

Can you show me where it says Pitlords are bred now, sure on their home world but now? along with the amy? until i see evidence or backing for any of these assumptions that i personally think are ridiculous, females following along with the burning legion indeed.

Obviously your not looking at it, look at the notable Necromancers section,

Shadow, Death, nature, Demonology, Frost, Arcane

The guys are hardly limited at all.....

Well mianly because they can rise again....more enedless or infnite than a million strong thats for sure...

WoW balance does not concern me, the abilitis of the destroyer as ive shown you and Nozmordu, and among them is mana drain, consumtion, and spell immunity, if the Destroyers need to have balance in WoW such as removing their spell immuntiy then that is none of my concern, gameplay ftl, that video was sowing you how they explode, not themselves.


There is no version for that ability in WoW. The ability exist in warcraft the frozen throne however the spell has no effect on a summoned infernal, go ahead and try yourself i'm sure you have the game. and the effect is none existant, because of the spell immunity coupled with the resistant skin.

No not quiet since it's resistant to that kind of effects.

Quote what you find important about the canonfodder of the Scourge show me what in your opinion will give the Zombies and Ghouls the win against the Felguard it must really be a good reason consideret that the Scourge are outnumbered at the least 1 to 4.

Cripple, "Cripples" the target, reducing movement speed and, increasing time between melee and ranged attacks. It doesn't affect the time it takes to perform a spell. And again they are highly resistant to this effect. It cripples you correct in what way it cripples you however I think you have misunderstood.

Yes he can provide the Scan from the War of the Ancient so we will have to wait for me to get the books unless he post it himself.

Yes on there homeworld, oure assumptions are as good as your believing there are more then one Flesh Titan and that the Obsidian Destroyers are a entire race.

Noteable Necromancers can hardly be called regular necromancers, and again regular Necromancers are restricted to Necromancy, but in that case should we then begin looking at each of the noteable peers of each race find there power and then say that the entire Race can produce that effect, not in my Opinion then there was no idea in saying that it was only the races, then I could just as well have said the entire Legion leaders past and present against the Scourge past and present.

Not those guys but those guys is again not average Necromancers either.

If the Legion outclasses the Scourge 4 to 1 and the Legion most likely down 3 every time the Scourge down one then the Scourge have a problem.

What concerns me is that you have claimed throught the entire conversation is that the Destroyers have spell immunity then you show a Video that clearly shows that isn't the case, you then begin mixing the Destroyer from the Warcraft RTS together with the One from the RPG entirely disregarding that they are two entirely different analysations of the Destroyers.
One has AOE mana drain and the ability to blow up when it gets to much Mana,
the other one doesn't blow up if it's capacity is filled, can devour magic a ability that it's WoW counterpart doesn't have and cannot steal mana from more then one at the time...
These are two entirely different describtions of the Destroyers make up your mind of which one it's going to be that the Scrouge has, because the one they certainly doesn't have is the one you are mixing together.

So you are taking what you like from the individual showings and put them together as you deem fit?

Originally posted by Utrigita
There is no version for that ability in WoW. The ability exist in warcraft the frozen throne however the spell has no effect on a summoned infernal, go ahead and try yourself i'm sure you have the game. and the effect is none existant, because of the spell immunity coupled with the resistant skin.

No not quiet since it's resistant to that kind of effects.

Quote what you find important about the canonfodder of the Scourge show me what in your opinion will give the Zombies and Ghouls the win against the Felguard it must really be a good reason consideret that the Scourge are outnumbered at the least 1 to 4.

Cripple, "Cripples" the target, reducing movement speed and, increasing time between melee and ranged attacks. It doesn't affect the time it takes to perform a spell. And again they are highly resistant to this effect. It cripples you correct in what way it cripples you however I think you have misunderstood.

Yes he can provide the Scan from the War of the Ancient so we will have to wait for me to get the books unless he post it himself.

Yes on there homeworld, oure assumptions are as good as your believing there are more then one Flesh Titan and that the Obsidian Destroyers are a entire race.

Noteable Necromancers can hardly be called regular necromancers, and again regular Necromancers are restricted to Necromancy, but in that case should we then begin looking at each of the noteable peers of each race find there power and then say that the entire Race can produce that effect, not in my Opinion then there was no idea in saying that it was only the races, then I could just as well have said the entire Legion leaders past and present against the Scourge past and present.

Not those guys but those guys is again not average Necromancers either.

If the Legion outclasses the Scourge 4 to 1 and the Legion most likely down 3 every time the Scourge down one then the Scourge have a problem.

What concerns me is that you have claimed throught the entire conversation is that the Destroyers have spell immunity then you show a Video that clearly shows that isn't the case, you then begin mixing the Destroyer from the Warcraft RTS together with the One from the RPG entirely disregarding that they are two entirely different analysations of the Destroyers.
One has AOE mana drain and the ability to blow up when it gets to much Mana,
the other one doesn't blow up if it's capacity is filled, can devour magic a ability that it's WoW counterpart doesn't have and cannot steal mana from more then one at the time...
These are two entirely different describtions of the Destroyers make up your mind of which one it's going to be that the Scrouge has, because the one they certainly doesn't have is the one you are mixing together.

So you are taking what you like from the individual showings and put them together as you deem fit?

Point taken, it doesnt work on infernals afterall. Destroyers will have to Physically pound Infernals into dust along with Abominsations and flesh giants it seems.

The attackers that will be hitting againt Felguard will not all be canon fodder, but heres some important things on page 156-59 are:



Just curious for the record, does it say anywhere if all Burning legion members are fearless?










Now some of these powers are damn powerful not to mention some undead can have more than one of these powers.


If your crawling on the ground as i said before crippled, you wont be able to cast a spell with ease, hell especially a big fat pitlord, he will prob crush his own arms or impale himself on his weapon if crippled at the right time.

Notable necromancers are simply those who are named, their still all just necromancers, some pretty normal, their just necromancers just as the whole scourges groups are, this information clearly shows again that they have most schools of magic, theres about 8 necromancers there saying they have diffrent types of powers.

yes they are, wat states otherwise? just because we know their names their not normal necromancers? you have to be nameless to be a average necromancer, show me thats how the membership of the scourge works please....lol, ofc not...their all necromancers, some of them if not a lot of htem use Demonc, nature etc etc, their powers are vast.

No, if a single pitlord was outnumbered by 5 ghouls do the ghouls win? I highly doubt it indeed......the Scourge have far more powerful singluar entities, and this 4 to 1 number is based on what? the entire Glaciar (not the whole scourge army) consists of 250k, the whole scourge army would be more than 250k agreed? ofcourse, also furthermore, this 250k isnt 250k ghouls VS 1 million Felguard, hell for all we know its 400k felguard VS 100k assorted undead, 1000 abomination/flesh giant creatues 1000 frostwyrms and 1000 destroyers etc etc etc, you dont know the exact numbers, although as a whole the legion outnumbers the scourge found in the Glaciar by 4 to 1, if most of those ratio of 4 to 1 is actually 4 felguards for every 1 Frostwyrms then its pointless, most of the felguards will be dead from Destroyer explosions.

Their all the same character and most of the interpretations dont contradict eachother, Infernals are not immune to magic in WoW either, my lock can prob two hit Monroc covern ones with shadow bolts.....this is called gameplay balance for WoW, the main idea around the video is that the Obsidion destroys dont blow up when they AOE. If theres several sources on the destroy but some forget to mention certain powers, they dont just disapear, since their the same destroter in the same game universe, if new lore adds to the abilities of the destroyers then fine, but if it doesnt contradict anything lorewise then fine as well.

So destroyers are: AOE explosion, mana draining, spell immune, flying giant lumps of living stone empowered to survive against even an entire bronze dragon flgiht who had to retreat and gain the other flights to lock Anh quiraj up.

Good luck for the destroyers with doing that.

Are that abilities that the Zombies and the Ghouls has else I cannot see what relevance those quotes has to my request?

and just to answer you question yes they are fearless

http://images.wikia.com/wowwiki/images/d/d1/Felguard_description.jpg

Again high spell immunity coupled with the fact that the Cripple doesn't reduce the cast efficiancy of the relevant spell like dispel for instance, it would most likely require a handgesture to make the spell.

13 Necromancers that are noteable, which means they stand out from the regular Necromancers in some way ore another, they are exceptionel when compared with the other Necromancers which also speaks for why they has abilities beyond the ordinary Necromancer, which as mentioned and proved before doesn't have any other spells then Necromancy at his disposal.

But again http://www.wowwiki.com/Necromancer

Again average Necromancers doesn't have anything besides Necromancy also of those noteable Necromancers 8 out of 13 (discounted The two liches) deals with no other aspect then Shadow and Death which is Necromancy.

Yes the Pitlord would win, though what is the point with this comparison? That strongly depends on how you choose to define singular entities. You misunderstood me, the only known number we have about the Scourge places it's army size at 250.000 you have choosen to use the only known army size of the Legion too a million that I then draw a conclusion from those two numbers (with you claimed the only known size of the legion in particular) isn't wrong I'm using known numbers. Also when I said 4 to 1 it's symbolizes the average outlay between the two armies. that everytime the Scourge have 1 necromancer ore lich the Legion will have four Eredar, very basically.

I has never used the Infernals from WoW because I don't know them and secondly there showings there contradicts both the Lore concerning them and the Warcraft RTS game and I haven't tried mixing the two together. The largest problem I have with this is that you willingly accept one of there abilities and discount another one of there abilities and begin mixing two different showings of a being together. That is my problem. There is contradictions to the lore as shown in the MoM handbooks the Destroyers doesn't have, it's entirely possible that we are dealing with two different destroyers, the one from WoW is encountered in the desert with the Insect race, the other Destroyer serves the Scourge.

So we actually have two different the ones found with the Nerubians and the ones forged by the Qiraji.

AOE Explosion and AOE mana drain in WoW but they lack the Spell immunity, in Warcraft Frozen Throne Spell immunity and Mana Drain but singular targets and no AOE Explosion, in the lore No Spell immunity and no Area of effect Explosions, so three different sources on the Obsidian Destroyer and none agrees on it's abilities. and may I add that

Originally posted by Utrigita
Good luck for the destroyers with doing that.

Are that abilities that the Zombies and the Ghouls has else I cannot see what relevance those quotes has to my request?

and just to answer you question yes they are fearless

http://images.wikia.com/wowwiki/images/d/d1/Felguard_description.jpg

Again high spell immunity coupled with the fact that the Cripple doesn't reduce the cast efficiancy of the relevant spell like dispel for instance, it would most likely require a handgesture to make the spell.

13 Necromancers that are noteable, which means they stand out from the regular Necromancers in some way ore another, they are exceptionel when compared with the other Necromancers which also speaks for why they has abilities beyond the ordinary Necromancer, which as mentioned and proved before doesn't have any other spells then Necromancy at his disposal.

But again http://www.wowwiki.com/Necromancer

Again average Necromancers doesn't have anything besides Necromancy also of those noteable Necromancers 8 out of 13 (discounted The two liches) deals with no other aspect then Shadow and Death which is Necromancy.

Yes the Pitlord would win, though what is the point with this comparison? That strongly depends on how you choose to define singular entities. You misunderstood me, the only known number we have about the Scourge places it's army size at 250.000 you have choosen to use the only known army size of the Legion too a million that I then draw a conclusion from those two numbers (with you claimed the only known size of the legion in particular) isn't wrong I'm using known numbers. Also when I said 4 to 1 it's symbolizes the average outlay between the two armies. that everytime the Scourge have 1 necromancer ore lich the Legion will have four Eredar, very basically.

I has never used the Infernals from WoW because I don't know them and secondly there showings there contradicts both the Lore concerning them and the Warcraft RTS game and I haven't tried mixing the two together. The largest problem I have with this is that you willingly accept one of there abilities and discount another one of there abilities and begin mixing two different showings of a being together. That is my problem. There is contradictions to the lore as shown in the MoM handbooks the Destroyers doesn't have, it's entirely possible that we are dealing with two different destroyers, the one from WoW is encountered in the desert with the Insect race, the other Destroyer serves the Scourge.

So we actually have two different the ones found with the Nerubians and the ones forged by the Qiraji.

AOE Explosion and AOE mana drain in WoW but they lack the Spell immunity, in Warcraft Frozen Throne Spell immunity and Mana Drain but singular targets and no AOE Explosion, in the lore No Spell immunity and no Area of effect Explosions, so three different sources on the Obsidian Destroyer and none agrees on it's abilities. and may I add that

They dont need luck, their bigger and are full lumps of solid stone, they can handle themselves.

its abilities all undead can have I belive, the Ghouls and zombies can definaltey, but the Frsot wyrms and such ime not so sure on..

They stand out why? they are simply named, thats all.....notable means they have names, your not going to have any thoughts on some respawnable necromancer just moving about the plaguelands, the fact of the matter is, theres 3 necromancers who know Nature maigc, another 3 who know frost, another who knows demonlogy, another who knows arcane and at the end of the day the scourge have undead mages anyway and mages know these things, the fact these necromancers are named means nothing, they are necromancers, a lot of them...and theres 7 of their number i belvie that use more than just Shadow and Death. Do you realise Necromancer is just a title also? they were once mages of Dalaren, and other parts of the world....they are mages as well...Necromancer is more of a secondary class.

The point of the comparison is that you keep saying for every 1 legion 3/4 scourge iwll die when the forces of the scourge are mostly superior in most ways...the ratio is massively weak and incaccurate due to these things: A: The scourge have more powerful unit types and many AOE units B: this the entire scourge VS the legion, this is not a basis of just known figuires, unless your making this thread the legion VS the icecrown glacir numbers now...but hell, according to Dark C, he likes using gameplay, 250k level 80's ghouls probably elites as well>>>level 70-71 felguards.

Well the Destroyer information in WoW contradicts the lore of htem being spell immune as well. The destroters are made by the same races, the nerubians as ive already shown are also insectoid worshipers of an Old God that LK took over didnt he, they are basically the same destroyers, they even have the same name.

Although thing is, the lore never says they dont have something, the only thing that says they dont have spell immunity is gameplay aspects whch i can settle down for balance in gameplay, so far ive got abilities backing me up, their the same character, built by same races basically.

Against the Infernals, I highly doubt that, since the Destroyers isn't melee fighters first but rely on there abilities to drain the mana from it's target and use it offensivly against a being with no mana and resistance/immunity they will be in deep water.

So I can bring forth the average skills for the Demons too cool, the most interesting I would like to mention however is the one that gives all demons page 114

It's the hole noteable section that makes them stand out, if they wasn't noteable they would just be ordinary Necromancers but they noteable from the main bunch, hence they stand out. Please when you qoute atleast do it right, two of those with frost is Liches, not which can hardly be consideret Necromancers any longer, the Demonic is a Lich too Kel'Thuzad to be precise, correct there are three with nature but again there are far more of those that just have Shadow and Death then anything else again 7 out of those 13 have nothing besides Death and Shadow. No Necromancers are as the words itself suggests wielders of Necromancy, there origin can be different, but there primary focus point is Necromancy, not a secondary class else they would still be consideret mages.

The Scourge superior in what aspects if I might ask? the only place I see them have a advantage is the Destroyers, the rest goes hand down to the Legion. AOE units just like the Doomguards, the Eredar, the Infernals on impact, The Natherizim, The Voidterrors and more?
You use the number of demons that entered Azeroth during Archimondes presence in Warcraft Reign of Chaos as a basis for you own conclusions, I cannot see the mistake in taking the only known number from the Scourge and do the same to them as you do towards the Legion. Probably elite... not classified elite, allow me to speficy just how clever the Ghouls are MoM 140 and let me see 250K Ghouls against 1 Million Felguards, what a tough question about which side win...

Again the Lore doesn't give them Spell immunity the only source that gives them that is Warcraft RTS so it's basically three sources that disagree on the Destroyers so please don't begin mixing them together into the being you would like the Scourge has. Except that the Nerubians and the Qiraji they can hardly be called the same specie, Because they have the same name it doesn't mean that the Destroyers created by two different races holds the same abilities, this has already been shown and mentioned in abundance, the Nerubians lack the AOE mana drain and explosion, the Qiraji lacks the Spell immunity and devour magic, you don't take two constructions created by two different races and plug them together.

The Lore doesn't mention it, hence they doesn't have it as simple as that, not some fictionel additions that isn't mentioned, in lore they doesn't have Spell immunity ore absorbation. Not really because if you discount the gameplay vulnerability to magic, then I'm just as entitled to discount there explosions and AOE manadrain... And again two different races, it's like trying to compare the high Elves to the Night Elves and say they are the same...

Incorrect..



Yet a larger frostwyrm was almost defeated by a weakened blue dragon that used no magic at all other than the dragon breath which was to counter the frostwyrm's breath and succeded.. Being undead doesnt improve a frostwyrm anything, other than protecting them from certain effects such as diseases and poisons.. The frostwyrm certainly didnt have enough strength to win over the weakened blue dragon in a clash..

If anything, Sunwell Triology has shown that a frostwyrm might even be weaker than a living dragon, only with the undead resistance advantages that I mentioned..

Originally posted by Utrigita
Against the Infernals, I highly doubt that, since the Destroyers isn't melee fighters first but rely on there abilities to drain the mana from it's target and use it offensivly against a being with no mana and resistance/immunity they will be in deep water.

So I can bring forth the average skills for the Demons too cool, the most interesting I would like to mention however is the one that gives all demons page 114

It's the hole noteable section that makes them stand out, if they wasn't noteable they would just be ordinary Necromancers but they noteable from the main bunch, hence they stand out. Please when you qoute atleast do it right, two of those with frost is Liches, not which can hardly be consideret Necromancers any longer, the Demonic is a Lich too Kel'Thuzad to be precise, correct there are three with nature but again there are far more of those that just have Shadow and Death then anything else again 7 out of those 13 have nothing besides Death and Shadow. No Necromancers are as the words itself suggests wielders of Necromancy, there origin can be different, but there primary focus point is Necromancy, not a secondary class else they would still be consideret mages.

The Scourge superior in what aspects if I might ask? the only place I see them have a advantage is the Destroyers, the rest goes hand down to the Legion. AOE units just like the Doomguards, the Eredar, the Infernals on impact, The Natherizim, The Voidterrors and more?
You use the number of demons that entered Azeroth during Archimondes presence in Warcraft Reign of Chaos as a basis for you own conclusions, I cannot see the mistake in taking the only known number from the Scourge and do the same to them as you do towards the Legion. Probably elite... not classified elite, allow me to speficy just how clever the Ghouls are MoM 140 and let me see 250K Ghouls against 1 Million Felguards, what a tough question about which side win...

Again the Lore doesn't give them Spell immunity the only source that gives them that is Warcraft RTS so it's basically three sources that disagree on the Destroyers so please don't begin mixing them together into the being you would like the Scourge has. Except that the Nerubians and the Qiraji they can hardly be called the same specie, Because they have the same name it doesn't mean that the Destroyers created by two different races holds the same abilities, this has already been shown and mentioned in abundance, the Nerubians lack the AOE mana drain and explosion, the Qiraji lacks the Spell immunity and devour magic, you don't take two constructions created by two different races and plug them together.

The Lore doesn't mention it, hence they doesn't have it as simple as that, not some fictionel additions that isn't mentioned, in lore they doesn't have Spell immunity ore absorbation. Not really because if you discount the gameplay vulnerability to magic, then I'm just as entitled to discount there explosions and AOE manadrain... And again two different races, it's like trying to compare the high Elves to the Night Elves and say they are the same...

Not really, the Destroyer is far larger, in not only heigh but in bulk, its solid stone all the way through,the infernal is only part, the Destroyer willl smash the Infernal into the ground.

If you can have that trait then I can have the fact all undead are immune to most of those tihngs ecept fire as well....the undead are also nigh unkillalble due to the "will not die" and furthermore, undead banshees can fly and possess which is interesting ,possessing a Pitlord should be fun, thing is undead cannot be destroyed by massive damage either so Pitlords who make massive damage cannot destroy any undead, ime sure Eredar cannot do anything either....so youve got undead who wont die, immune to many elements and in extension are immune to large form damage.

Liches are immune to fire also.

Also what bonus is this to the legion? the undead already have every maigc at their hands as well so resistence to those things will not help them much.

Being notable doesnt mean their not ordinairy necromancers, just because a man has won a flower show, doesnt mean hes not an ordinary man anymore...hes still a man...he is simply notable for winning a flower show...these Necromancers are like most necromancers, but still...Necromancers are also mages...so they have mage spells, since they were mages as a secondary class next to Necromancy, either way, they can be magic users of any spells.

Not at all, half the legion power support, Pitlords, Doomguards...all fine targets for cripple which even a Necromancer can cast, Pitlords cannot do anything to the undead now were using MOM abilities so hes useless, he may as well sit and w8 to be possessed by a Banshee or something. I use the numbers of the entire legion, 1 million. Do the legion even have any flying long ranged units like Scourge have destroers, wyrms and gargoyles who can also double as melee if necessary? The scourge are almost immune to damage in general, the scourge have the Destroters as youve mentioned ,what the hell do the legion have? the only thing they have is Felguards>most ghouls and ghouls can come under the sub title of most smaller undead, it could be a Orc Ghoul or a half giant ghoul if its that type of undead, and Abominations/Flesh giants will smother and crush any of these forces of the felguard.

What else do the scourge have that the burning legion does not:
Ability to replenish their forces through animation on the battlefield, undead Pitlords would do fine.
Long range magic disruption forces, and fliers, many flier types.
Possession capable banshees who are also invisible.
Ability to take air from the sky (Nerbuians)
Ability to incapcitate through cripple most beings

The legion are done for..and this is taking the assumption the Scourge are actually outnumbered, if theres 250k in the glacier alone, theres no fact that states they are outnumbered if the entire worlds scourge army is against the legions 1 million, which due to the scourges advantages, this 1 million will drop fast.

None of the sources disagree, one source simply gives it spell immunity, simple as....nothing sayins the destroyers dont have it. Its the same type of destroyer, an Obsidion destroyer, they even look exactley the same, as WoWwiki says:



Same constructions

WC3 TFT mentions it, the lore doesnt, simple as that...the lore is not knowledgable on this aspect of the Obsidion destroyer, doesnt mention it, yet the WC3 TFT shows us htey have spell immunity. not two diffrent races, as it says, their from the same insectoid race that ruled during the Troll empires, they are both "obsidian destroyers". You cannot discount actual abilities, their nothing to do with the gameplay, you cannot attribute at all a being with more powers being anything to do with gameplay balance, and furthermore ive got evidence of this balance in effect with your very own infernals which are not magic immune at all....



Originally posted by Nozdormu
Incorrect..



Yet a larger frostwyrm was almost defeated by a weakened blue dragon that used no magic at all other than the dragon breath which was to counter the frostwyrm's breath and succeded.. Being undead doesnt improve a frostwyrm anything, other than protecting them from certain effects such as diseases and poisons.. The frostwyrm certainly didnt have enough strength to win over the weakened blue dragon in a clash..

If anything, Sunwell Triology has shown that a frostwyrm might even be weaker than a living dragon, only with the undead resistance advantages that I mentioned..

Its got more than Supremeus the leader of the Abyssals thats for sure, and they are>>>Infernals.

Can you show me this please, a paragraph or two of this battle, seems unlikely so I would like to see it please, perhaps the dragon was not as underpowered as it may seem, ive spoken with Riten a while ago and she seemed to give the Frsotwyrm more credit.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Its got more than Supremeus the leader of the Abyssals thats for sure, and they are>>>Infernals.

Can you show me this please, a paragraph or two of this battle, seems unlikely so I would like to see it please, perhaps the dragon was not as underpowered as it may seem, ive spoken with Riten a while ago and she seemed to give the Frsotwyrm more credit.

Where does it say he's the leader of the Abyssals? And there's a pitlord that has roughly three million more health than the Thaddius..



The Sunwell doesnt focus on that fight, so all I can show you are a few clashes if your interested.. I know that you find it unlikely (I personally dont) but it's black on white the clash between a frostwyrm and a blue dragon, and even though the blue dragon is weak it can still hold its own against the frostwyrm..

The frostwyrm dies before the fight is finished though, so we dont know who would've won.. What we do know is that they have matching strength and that the blue dragons breath could counter the frostwyrms.. The Sunwell at that time focus on Kalecgos, Ichor and The Baron rather than the two fighting dragons.. What we do know is that the dragon holds its own against the frostwyrm during..

If you want, I can scan what you do see from the fight, but it isnt much..

Originally posted by Nozdormu
Where does it say he's the leader of the Abyssals? And there's a pitlord that has roughly three million more health than the Thaddius..



The Sunwell doesnt focus on that fight, so all I can show you are a few clashes if your interested.. I know that you find it unlikely (I personally dont) but it's black on white the clash between a frostwyrm and a blue dragon, and even though the blue dragon is weak it can still hold its own against the frostwyrm..

The frostwyrm dies before the fight is finished though, so we dont know who would've won.. What we do know is that they have matching strength and that the blue dragons breath could counter the frostwyrms.. The Sunwell at that time focus on Kalecgos, Ichor and The Baron rather than the two fighting dragons.. What we do know is that the dragon holds its own against the frostwyrm during..

If you want, I can scan what you do see from the fight, but it isnt much..

What I meant then is htat he is the largest and most powerful Abyssal, thats the main point

yes please, and tell me the state of teh Frostwyrm itself, wyrms are created from all kinds of bones, their wyrms but from the bone yards not all are likely exacltey the same ,the fact remains you said it died before the fight was finished, why did it die? if it was greatly weakened anyway then hell its no wonder.

State? It's an undead dragon.. That's the state of the frostwyrm..

The frostwyrm died because the orb that granted the necromancer enough power to resurrect the frostwyrm was destroyed.. It wasnt weakened at all..

As I said, the story didnt focus on the fight.. What I scan here are scattered pieces from a couple of pages.. The point is that a weakened blue dragon physically held its own against the frostwyrm..

Fine lets play a little with MoM and the RPG stats.

Provide me with a source that stats they are capable of doing that please.

Of cause they would be immune to Necromancy, they are created from it no surprise there, If the Banshee suceeds in doing it, which in lore isn't garantied and in the game a level above 5 was to much for the Banshe if I recall correctly, furthermore the Pitlord has yet again Spell Resistance. So now undead cannot die and even be killed by the Eredars interesting, what if you chop it's head of, splits it's torso in half, ore maked it flare with entropic fire? It Dies.

Yes and your point is?

Please show me that they have any magic in there hands, and again the majority of the Scourge relies on Necromancy to perform it's feats, now it faces a army against which Necromancy has no effect.

When a person is noteable it's because that persons stand out from the ordinary, else I see no reason why Kel'Thuzad is mentioned and he most certainly stands out from the Ordinary Necromancer by quiet a margin. Please show me where it stats that the average Necromancer still has his mage spells at his disposal, because the hole reason they are Necromancers are because they have abandoned there former way of life, that includes there spells as a mage.

Yet again the Doomguards have high spell resistance/immunity towards spells so does the pitlords this have been mentioned multiply times why do you continue to ignore it? His Useless? then the Necromancer effect will have no effect on him what so ever. You use the number of the Legion that was present on Azeroth that you fail to accept that in the very same book the amounts of Demons in the Twisted Nether is infinite isn't my concern it's yours. Again the Legion has Fel Dragons, The Firewreck Dragons, The Doomguards, yes almost immune but not entirely immune if they where there was no reason to add hitpoints for them was there? No they can take a incrediable amount of punishment in comparison to a regular human without a doubt does that mean they can play with the Legion, no. The Doomguards and the Firewreck Dragons and the Fel Dragons, Again you are placing the Felguards alone on the ground and as said before that will not be the case.

Let me see.

The Natherizim can do that too, as mentioned before.
Provided they have enough destroyers to focus on each Eredar then they can become a pest then they only need the Dreadlords the Pitlords and the Doomguards, the Voidterrors and the imps and so on.
Which at some times will work at other times it wouldn't, as shown both in the game and the lore. I will inform you that if it fails or success either way the Banshee dies.
Gaining a large number of Doomguards downtoo the field would not be the wisest of moves.
The Cripple that will have no effect and later will begin tiring the Necromancers mainly because of you claiming they will ressurrect the fallen which they will however that requires mana to accomplishe and mana to substain, what do you think the Necromancers are? A endless supply of Mana...

The Legion that has seeded Destruction throughout the Universe will not fall for the Scourge. And I see it the other way around entirely, it will be the Scourge losing it's troops fastest, because they are outclassed in many departments, Magical, Support units, Shock Units, Front units, commanders, the air they will have the upperhand for a short time however they will ultimately lose that field too.

WHich is a lie, then three different sources each gives the destroyer different abilities then the sources disagree on what abilities the Destroyer has. Again if you had care to read that quote it's speculation without a link towards the source from where they gained there information.

Also you forgot one Vital little fact in you bolding out the last part



And I should now assume that when a Being shows something in the game but the book fails to do so it's simply a forgetting and the being in question still has it? Thats a highly inlogical explanation and it still doesn't change no matter what you claim that in the MoM the Destroyers isn't spell immune, as shown in WoW so actually it's two against one source. The destroyers where created long after the Race split up and formed the two different factions. I can discount abilities when the abilities isn't being used, ore should I claim that a Lion can fly it just haven't showed it yet? Ofcause not we take the Abilities that are being showed and uses them, but we doesn't begin mixing three different showings of a being together because we think that's the most correct one. Sorry but they are both in the Warcraft 3 Frozen Throne and in MoM they isn't in WoW, however they are magical immune in the War of the Ancient trilogy too so I think I have the basis required to say that the one source that points towards the opposite is negated when three stats otherwise then three others is wrong however that isn't as mentioned before the case with the Destroyers actually it's the other way around..

Originally posted by Utrigita
Fine lets play a little with MoM and the RPG stats.

Provide me with a source that stats they are capable of doing that please.

Of cause they would be immune to Necromancy, they are created from it no surprise there, If the Banshee suceeds in doing it, which in lore isn't garantied and in the game a level above 5 was to much for the Banshe if I recall correctly, furthermore the Pitlord has yet again Spell Resistance. So now undead cannot die and even be killed by the Eredars interesting, what if you chop it's head of, splits it's torso in half, ore maked it flare with entropic fire? It Dies.

Yes and your point is?

Please show me that they have any magic in there hands, and again the majority of the Scourge relies on Necromancy to perform it's feats, now it faces a army against which Necromancy has no effect.

When a person is noteable it's because that persons stand out from the ordinary, else I see no reason why Kel'Thuzad is mentioned and he most certainly stands out from the Ordinary Necromancer by quiet a margin. Please show me where it stats that the average Necromancer still has his mage spells at his disposal, because the hole reason they are Necromancers are because they have abandoned there former way of life, that includes there spells as a mage.

Yet again the Doomguards have high spell resistance/immunity towards spells so does the pitlords this have been mentioned multiply times why do you continue to ignore it? His Useless? then the Necromancer effect will have no effect on him what so ever. You use the number of the Legion that was present on Azeroth that you fail to accept that in the very same book the amounts of Demons in the Twisted Nether is infinite isn't my concern it's yours. Again the Legion has Fel Dragons, The Firewreck Dragons, The Doomguards, yes almost immune but not entirely immune if they where there was no reason to add hitpoints for them was there? No they can take a incrediable amount of punishment in comparison to a regular human without a doubt does that mean they can play with the Legion, no. The Doomguards and the Firewreck Dragons and the Fel Dragons, Again you are placing the Felguards alone on the ground and as said before that will not be the case.

Let me see.

The Natherizim can do that too, as mentioned before.
Provided they have enough destroyers to focus on each Eredar then they can become a pest then they only need the Dreadlords the Pitlords and the Doomguards, the Voidterrors and the imps and so on.
Which at some times will work at other times it wouldn't, as shown both in the game and the lore. I will inform you that if it fails or success either way the Banshee dies.
Gaining a large number of Doomguards downtoo the field would not be the wisest of moves.
The Cripple that will have no effect and later will begin tiring the Necromancers mainly because of you claiming they will ressurrect the fallen which they will however that requires mana to accomplishe and mana to substain, what do you think the Necromancers are? A endless supply of Mana...

The Legion that has seeded Destruction throughout the Universe will not fall for the Scourge. And I see it the other way around entirely, it will be the Scourge losing it's troops fastest, because they are outclassed in many departments, Magical, Support units, Shock Units, Front units, commanders, the air they will have the upperhand for a short time however they will ultimately lose that field too.

Provide me with a source that a infernal is capable of damaging a ghoul please

No not at all, I just gave you the page numbers, use it, it says "will not die" they need ot be completly burned in seperate fires, each piece of the being, limbs off the torso and the thing itself...otherwise it comes back again and again....Theres no such thing as levels in a real battle, I dont belive this is a gameplay fight but hell its your thread, level 80 elites ghouls>71 felguards. Good for his spell resistence, doesnt equel immunity.

Just an addition

sure later on, then I can hit two points with one stone. So, nothing the Legion have will have much affect to the already superior forces of the Scourge.

What? abandoned his mage spellls? he threw out his wizards hat and now hes lost all his powers your trying to suggest? lmao........hey maybe he had a yard sale "spells for sale, ime no longer a mage!!, $2.50 for that frost bolt young lady" ....no Utrigos, as it says:



They have never lost their powers, they have never been taken from them, nothing but their obediance and service, loyalty etc etc, they simply use Necromancer powers mostly, their still mages, just also Necromancers.

ime not ignoring anything, you seem to be under the impression every spell used on them will fail or be weak, the Pitlords and Doomguards would be hit by god knows how many Necromancers, part of the actual scourge in the Glaciar and across the world and the cult of the damned, considering theres going to be what, up to maybe 25-60 Pit lords in the battle at most, theres no chance theyll do much at all, especially with the undead immunity to heavy damage. No because it says Necromancy effects, you now have to prove that "cripple" is a necromancy effect spell....its seems to just be shadow to me, they have not got immunity to shadow spells

What very same book? ime using the precise numbers from the official site, it says quite clearly Sargerus regardless of any beings view has the burning legion (narrator) at 1 million screaming demons......

Doomguards are the only worthy air weapon they have so far and their large things that could be swarmed by Gargoyles, destroyed utterly by Frost wyrms or simply brought down by Anti air weapons such as webbing, locust swarms would be eating away at the legion as well from all the Crypt lords.

The Nathrezim however are under threat by flying mana absorbing, spell immune monstrosities, the Liches, Necromancers etc etc are free, also you have yet to prove that they are as proficient as Necromancers.

Why not? a bunch of doomguards straight into the scourge, they would be swarmed like throwing a child into a driver ants nest....it would be swallowed, then pop back up as an undead.

No effect? the cripple even if the Pitlord does bother (if it can since it will be drained by Destroyers) dispel, it will be done again and again, once will be enough for a large scourge group just to swarm it before it can do anything.

Necromancers and the scourge have obsidion blight statues that can use the blight to restore mana, also for your inforamtion, Liches can also mana drain, and the various "pact" spells allow the controllers of scourge forces to sacrifce their lackies for more power if htey wish it.

Yes it will, the same reason as before, just because for example perhaps all their other planets they won through are inhabited by pygmies with spears doesnt mean the massively powerful scourge will be stopped, just like how Azeroth has stopped them. Not at all Utrigos, how do they lose anything?

Originally posted by Utrigita
WHich is a lie, then three different sources each gives the destroyer different abilities then the sources disagree on what abilities the Destroyer has. Again if you had care to read that quote it's speculation without a link towards the source from where they gained there information.

Also you forgot one Vital little fact in you bolding out the last part



And I should now assume that when a Being shows something in the game but the book fails to do so it's simply a forgetting and the being in question still has it? Thats a highly inlogical explanation and it still doesn't change no matter what you claim that in the MoM the Destroyers isn't spell immune, as shown in WoW so actually it's two against one source. The destroyers where created long after the Race split up and formed the two different factions. I can discount abilities when the abilities isn't being used, ore should I claim that a Lion can fly it just haven't showed it yet? Ofcause not we take the Abilities that are being showed and uses them, but we doesn't begin mixing three different showings of a being together because we think that's the most correct one. Sorry but they are both in the Warcraft 3 Frozen Throne and in MoM they isn't in WoW, however they are magical immune in the War of the Ancient trilogy too so I think I have the basis required to say that the one source that points towards the opposite is negated when three stats otherwise then three others is wrong however that isn't as mentioned before the case with the Destroyers actually it's the other way around..



Abominations/flesh giants>>Felguard swarms/rushes
Destroyers>basically anything it wants to smash on apart from perhaps Pit lords...but theyll be incapaciated
Support, what you smoking? the Legion have basically no support, the Scourge have so many types of support in the form of Destroyers, magic users on their own forces, they have no end to support.
Commanders? whom, you said no commanders, if you mean Doomguards or something then not a chance, Death knights>>Doom guards in the fact they can call up and animate large groups of undead, some not even on his side, he can use a huge combination of powers as well.

Magic is the only way the legion win through in the end, and you know what, Destoyers are immune to that too, the things are swiss army knives, not to mention the Scourge can work their powers together to be unstoppable force, for example Cripples/swarming with ghouls, tehy can raise the dead, they can possess, they can use their powerful air forces to destroy long range magic threats and Destroters to do almost anything ,their Abominations would knock out basically anything the Legion can bring to bear on them, same with Flesh giants....and if all else fails...Leviathans will just roll on the legion and turn them to puttie.....

It doesnt disagree, if it gives it diffrent abilities then fair enough, if thats how the Destroer has evolved over time, gaining new powers, good for the destroyer, if thats what Blizzard are giving it. And whats yours? fact? lol yours is speculation.

That "little fact" means nothing....so what if Vecklor made the ones in Ahn quiraj, good for Vecklor, we dont know the names of the Nerubians or the Dark God beneath Northrend however who made the Scourges ones.

Infact in the RPG their very spell resistent, if not immune, Also no, its zero against one source, one of your sources is irrelvent, its a gameplay balance mechanic, you know why? because its the PLAYERS who your determining the effect from, if it was another being it would be proof but its not, as soon as its a player your using the interaction for your evidence it fails completly, the other source doesnt disagree as i said before, it just doesnt mention spell immunity, just like how its not mentioned in WoW for Infernals either. weve not seen a lion fly, but in TFT weve seen obsidion destroyers immune..my case is better because its flawless, the obsidion destroyer is immune as an actual element ability in the RTS.

Originally posted by Nozdormu
State? It's an undead dragon.. That's the state of the frostwyrm..

The frostwyrm died because the orb that granted the necromancer enough power to resurrect the frostwyrm was destroyed.. It wasnt weakened at all..

no the state of the one that was fighting, what had they both been through before they confronted eachother ,perhaps it was weak because of the Necromancer losing the power or w/e, i need to know its state.

Originally posted by Burning thought
no the state of the one that was fighting, what had they both been through before they confronted eachother ,perhaps it was weak because of the Necromancer losing the power or w/e, i need to know its state.

It was healthy, if that's what your asking.. To answer what they had been trough before the fight:

Frostwyrm: Nothing.. Patroling the region on command of the necromancer..

Blue Dragon: Shot down from the sky, making a rough landing and taking quite the hits.. Then imprisoned in solid ice for a couple of hours.. After being freed by a paladin and while the blue dragon is partially unconcious and exhausted (now in human form) as they try escape, they come across the Frostwyrm who attack them, sending a blast on them that send them flying for an easy few hundred meters.. Then the two get attacked by the undeads, but before killed do the scourge get intercepted by dwarves who try free the paladin and the blue..

This is the point where the Frostwyrm is summoned, and enters the battle by melting numerous dwarves and undeads.. Ichor and Kalecgos both head of towards the necromancer.. The blue dragon transform into dragon from human form (still exhausted, freezing cold and injured), and at this point Kalecgos says "NO! She's far too weak", but she flies into the sky and she manage to hold her own very well against the dragon.. For half the fight she even only used one arm, as she held the paladin in the other..


Bottom line: A frostwyrm was an equal match to an injured, exhausted blue dragon.. I'm not even sure she's considered an adult.. She was referred to as inexperienced at one point, and she isnt very big either..

well then that Frost wyrm is a weakling, who raised that Frostwyrm? do you know where it was raised, if it was that Necromancers then the likelines is that its not a LK Northrend Wyrm OR major PIS/CIS on the Frost wyrms sake, the things are menaces, also how did they melt dwarves? didnt it have frost breath or did it frsot shatter them?

Weaking? Why? Because it didnt reach your expectations? PIS? Because it didnt reach your expectations?

The Frostwyrm was a wyrm of the Lich King, as it was stated.. So who "raised" it? That would be the Lich King.. The necromancer used the "Eye of Ner'Zhul" to claim control over it..


I was wrong though, after a closer look.. It didnt melt anyone.. It froze them.. It just looked to me like a melt (See attachment)

Originally posted by Nozdormu
Weaking? Why? Because it didnt reach your expectations? PIS? Because it didnt reach your expectations?

The Frostwyrm was a wyrm of the Lich King, as it was stated.. So who "raised" it? That would be the Lich King.. The necromancer used the "Eye of Ner'Zhul" to claim control over it..


I was wrong though, after a closer look.. It didnt melt anyone.. It froze them.. It just looked to me like a melt (See attachment)

Because a Frost wyrm is an enormous great dragon when its from the frozen norths, from the graveyards, there is no way a small dragon from any perspective other than pIS could do it, it would be like an infernal being beaten by a couple of footmen....

Well if he did indeed raise it (a wyrm of the lich king does not hint this, their all wyrms of the lich king to a necromancer) then the power of the orb which is commanded by the Necromancer seems to be weak as its blatently shown.

a Wyrm is the largest class of dragon there is afaik, "great" I also remember being the highest rank, the Frost wyrm is both, the Dragons size along let alone its powers should be enough to take on any lesser dragon, but fortunatley for that one it died before it got stuck in, either was it should have just layed the smack down.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Because a Frost wyrm is an enormous great dragon when its from the frozen norths, from the graveyards, there is no way a small dragon from any perspective other than pIS could do it, it would be like an infernal being beaten by a couple of footmen....

Well if he did indeed raise it (a wyrm of the lich king does not hint this, their all wyrms of the lich king to a necromancer) then the power of the orb which is commanded by the Necromancer seems to be weak as its blatently shown.

You also didnt think there was any way the Burning Legion invasion force could be less than a few tens of thousands.. Yet, the books said differently.. There's absolutely not one single indication, not a single sign, that this frostwyrm should be weaker than any other.. Ichor was given the Frostwyrm from the Lich King..

He didnt raise it.. Lich King did.. He claimed control over it by using "Eye of Ner'Zhul", which is an enchanted magical orb that hold, and I quote "highly astonishing powers".. How exactly is the orb weak? It removed Lich King's command over a Frostwyrm.. The orb has nothing to do with the frostwyrm's might at all.. It was used to directly rip it from Lich King's command to the necromancers..

Originally posted by Burning thought
a Wyrm is the largest class of dragon there is afaik, "great" I also remember being the highest rank, the Frost wyrm is both, the Dragons size along let alone its powers should be enough to take on any lesser dragon, but fortunatley for that one it died before it got stuck in, either was it should have just layed the smack down.

As far as you know, yes.. I'm sorry, but out of what I've seen.. That isnt very far..

Wyrm means adult dragon.. Not "largest dragon".. The dragon was referred to as "wyrm", as in "adult", while the blue dragon it fought had been referred to as "inexperienced", "exhausted" and "too weak" (and "beautiful" to add a little spice to things)

And about the size thing.. Please then explain to me, if size matter as much as you say, how Korialstrasz could physically clash with Neltharion, and, I quote the book "hold his own against the huge black leviathan".. And before you say "pis", I'd like to point out the fact that he earned nothing by doing so.. Nothing was accomplished at all.. It was a futile attempt to reach for the disk..

Originally posted by Nozdormu
You also didnt think there was any way the Burning Legion invasion force could be less than a few tens of thousands.. Yet, the books said differently.. There's absolutely not one single indication, not a single sign, that this frostwyrm should be weaker than any other.. Ichor was given the Frostwyrm from the Lich King..

He didnt raise it.. Lich King did.. He claimed control over it by using "Eye of Ner'Zhul", which is an enchanted magical orb that hold, and I quote "highly astonishing powers".. How exactly is the orb weak? It removed Lich King's command over a Frostwyrm.. The orb has nothing to do with the frostwyrm's might at all.. It was used to directly rip it from Lich King's command to the necromancers..



As far as you know, yes.. I'm sorry, but out of what I've seen.. That isnt very far..

Wyrm means adult dragon.. Not "largest dragon".. The dragon was referred to as "wyrm", as in "adult", while the blue dragon it fought had been referred to as "inexperienced", "exhausted" and "too weak" (and "beautiful" to add a little spice to things)

And about the size thing.. Please then explain to me, if size matter as much as you say, how Korialstrasz could physically clash with Neltharion, and, I quote the book "hold his own against the huge black leviathan".. And before you say "pis", I'd like to point out the fact that he earned nothing by doing so.. Nothing was accomplished at all.. It was a futile attempt to reach for the disk..

The books have not said anything about the entire legion invasion force yet....

Why would Necromancers steal from the Lich King?


Thats a double standard, I could say the same to you. For all your apprent book knowledge you have contrebuted very little to this debate, I mean what? you used the "hundreds of night elves and demons" Neltharian killed to prove the entire WoTA force? pathetic, if you have the knowledge use it.....

Wyrms are above mature/adult

Definition of Mature:

1. Having reached full natural growth or development

2. fully developed physically or mentally; grown-up

Sounds like Adult to me, a Wyrm is larger by far in most cases

It was still PIS, these are impossible odds and in many situations when you can match up the size of two beings ,if a being is vastly larger than the other and especially if their the same species, its far more likely the larger one would be stronger, if not definite, literature is full of PIS most of the time more than even gaming from my own experiance, whether it be a lack of action, or an obvious and random depowerment of a higher force (often the antogonist) losing to a lesser one.

Was the Frsotwyrm even hurt? you realise their so far:
Flying juggernughts of Lich Kings powers of frost
do not feel pain
are undead anyway which means they have the physical strengths of being undead, such as my example earlier, slicing it through the body doing nothing but annoying it.
Larger than the blue dragon you described.

but anyway, the legion are pathetic, just because youve beaten up 10 6 year olds doesnt mean youll win when you finally go up against an 18 year old wrestler, same with the legion, theyve gone up against flimsy worlds only to get completly knocked down by Azeroth, and their armies are pretty basic.

Originally posted by Burning thought
The books have not said anything about the entire legion invasion force yet....

Why would Necromancers steal from the Lich King?


Thats a double standard, I could say the same to you. For all your apprent book knowledge you have contrebuted very little to this debate, I mean what? you used the "hundreds of night elves and demons" Neltharian killed to prove the entire WoTA force? pathetic, if you have the knowledge use it.....

Wyrms are above mature/adult

Definition of Mature:

1. Having reached full natural growth or development

2. fully developed physically or mentally; grown-up

Sounds like Adult to me, a Wyrm is larger by far in most cases

It was still PIS, these are impossible odds and in many situations when you can match up the size of two beings ,if a being is vastly larger than the other and especially if their the same species, its far more likely the larger one would be stronger, if not definite, literature is full of PIS most of the time more than even gaming from my own experiance, whether it be a lack of action, or an obvious and random depowerment of a higher force (often the antogonist) losing to a lesser one.

Was the Frsotwyrm even hurt? you realise their so far:
Flying juggernughts of Lich Kings powers of frost
do not feel pain
are undead anyway which means they have the physical strengths of being undead, such as my example earlier, slicing it through the body doing nothing but annoying it.
Larger than the blue dragon you described.

but anyway, the legion are pathetic, just because youve beaten up 10 6 year olds doesnt mean youll win when you finally go up against an 18 year old wrestler, same with the legion, theyve gone up against flimsy worlds only to get completly knocked down by Azeroth, and their armies are pretty basic.

I'm sick of this.. This'll be my last post in this debate.. I'll explain it in my 3rd parahraph.. So you dont have to bother even replying to it.. There's a chance I wont even read your reply if you do.. I'll consider this one final desperate attemtp to teach you something about warcraft.. I dont expect you to listen though.. You never do.. Which is a shame, since your a good debator.. Proper knowledge would take you a long way.. I suggest you buy the books.. You are already a good debator, all you need is knowledge.




The invasion force was small.. Deal with it.. They expected Mannoroth and Archimonde to deal with most resistance, so they didnt send in the entire legion.. When Neltharion then wiped out the invasion force, they decided not to invade it anymore in the form of armies since he would wipe out any attacking forces immediately, so instead they were going for a more intellectual approach and beat them from the inside (Starting with the recruitment of Illidan, and developing from that).. What I showed you was exactly what it was.. A couple of hundred demons. Could be raised to perhaps around a thousand, plus/minus some hundred if we include the demon base which was never used for offense.

Because the necromancer had broken out of the Lich King's grasp, perhaps? Because he wanted to avenge both living and undead, perhaps? Because he hated what the Lich King had done to him, perhaps? Just perhaps.. But what do I know? I've only read the book..


Contributed very little? Could that perhaps be because I have not involved myself in this debate more than a little? I've brought you scans for all my statements. You just wont accept the scans as proof. You've been proven wrong multiple times, but you never accept it. You always try find ways around it.. Your problem is that your narrow-minded. You wont accept proof even if it's located right in front of you, as long as it doesnt serve your already set mind.. I've brought you proof for all statements I've made (In your eyes maybe I havent, big deal, I dont care), but you have not accepted a single one of them because it doesnt stack with your logic. This is why this will be my final post in this debate, because no matter how much proof I provide, no matter how many scans I bring you, you wouldnt agree on a single thing that would talk in the disadvantage of the Scourge. That's the way you debate. That's how you've always debated and that's the reason I hate debating with you.




You do realise that mature and adult dragons have been referred to as wyrms in the book? No, ofcourse not.. You havent read the books.. A wyrm is a dragon in its adult state.. There's nothing saying a frostwyrm would be any different in stage of maturity than a normal wyrm, since the frostwyrm is in fact resurrected dragons.. Probably the adult ones, as it is referred to as a wyrm. Frostwyrm. Just like how Korialstrasz is referred to as a red wyrm. Kalecgos is referred to as a blue wyrm. At one point I believe Soridormi was referred to as a broze wyrm. Since a frostwyrm is a resurrected dragon and the adult form of a dragon is a wyrm, it doesnt matter what you say about the Frostwyrm, since your knowledge in the matter is obviously incomplete for claiming a wyrm to be different from an adult, since it's just two words with the same meaning.
When you say a Frostwyrm is larger by far, it's your own speculations and inaccurate at that. Tyrygosa in Sunwell Triology is roughly the size of the Frostwyrm there (Somewhat smaller, but not a significant difference). Then if we compare her to Sapphiron (In WoW, which you've used to bring out the size the Flesh Titans so a very legit estimation), they too are roughly the same size (Again smaller, but not significant size difference.. I'll finish this post with a scan of her size, as a final contribution to this thread (Although according to you I've contributed nothing). You have absolutely no base in claiming that a Frostwyrm is larger than a normal dragon, since outside the games, the only Frostwyrm we've seen (in written lore) the one in Sunwell, which is estimated to Tyrygosa's size. You are ASSUMING that a Frostwyrm is larger, since it sound better in your ears, although all proof existant so far (Both in Naxxramas, WC3 and Sunwell Triology) indicate in absolutely not one single way that a frostwyrm is larger..


Still PIS? He was inevitable defeated by Neltharion, but he could hold his own for quite some time.. Just like how Varian Wrynn could defeat a stone giant with only physical means.. Varian Wrynn who was not even the size of the giants fist could match its strength, break out of its grasp and strike back at it.. I dont know what logic your using, if it's LoK logic, Burning Thought logic or whatever, but in warcraft, size doesnt always matter. This is another fact you'll have to accept, as we've seen it over and over.. We've seen Grom beat Mannoroth, Varian beat a stone giant, Broll a magma avatar..


First you ask if it's hurt, then you say it doesnt feel pain? Do you ever read trough what you write? Anyway, to the point..
- The Frostwyrm was damaged in the fight against the blue dragon.. The wing was damaged, as well as pieces of its head and arm (Indications that she was able to "harm" it) I would scan it for you, but the details are so distant in even the comic, so even if I did scan it, you probably wouldnt see it.. Even if you could see it, you wouldnt accept it anyway, since it'd go against your idealistic view of the Frostwyrm to have it damaged by a weakened blue dragon without PIS..
- Physical strength of the undead? No.. Physical endurance? Yes, that is more advanced. But if anything, a resurrected person is physically weaker. Also seen in the Sunwell triology where a random average elf is able to take several skeleton elves by himself and without any effort. Same when a dwarf take on two human skeletons by himself and physically overpower them.. The other example, which is the one you wont accept, is where the weakened blue dragon is able to match the slightly larger frostwyrm's strength.
- Larger than the female blue dragon? Yes, it was. Which makes it rather sad, since the blue dragon was still able to match the frostwyrm, even while weakened.




Completely knocked down by Azeroth? Heh.. One time annhiliated the Demon Soul.. Another time by the essence of the Well of Eternity.. Yeah, that's obviously embaressing losses, both of them.. The Entire scourge would perish in one single blast of the Demon Soul.. As would they with a single blast from the well of Eternity.. They did fail the attack against Azeroth, yes, but only when they had extremely powerful artifacts/powersources.. Since you havent read the book, so you wouldnt know, the troops of the Burning Legion has every single time been superior to the troops on Azeroth. Both the average magicians and melee warriors have been physically and magically superior the defenders of Azeroth. They only succeeses at defending has been because the Azerothian heroes, such as Malfurion, Illidan, Rhonin, Krasus, Korialstrasz, Tyrande, Broxigar and even some dragons had been at constant defense.. The few times that the Legion used their heroes, Azeroth was forced to pull back..


So bottom line of that paragraph: Azeroth with a high quantity of highly powerful heroes was despite their brave attempts to defend Azeroth pushed back constantly even without the involving of Archimonde and Mannoroth.. So it was Azeroth's armies and Azeroth's heroes versus the legion and they were still losing (Until the point where Neltharion used the disk).. So the fact that you say they are pathetic shows just how little you actually know in the matter..

No army that can push back without the involving of Burning Legion leaders in combat those mentioned heroes and the defending armies of Azeroth can be considered pathetic except for in your completely BIASed mind where you are unwilling to accept fact.





And as promised, the scan of the Blue Dragon's size

Originally posted by Nozdormu
This'll be my last post in this debate.. I'll explain it in my 3rd parahraph.. So you dont have to bother even replying to it.. There's a chance I wont even read your reply if you do.. I'll consider this one final desperate attemtp to teach you something about warcraft..


The invasion force was small.. Deal with it.. They expected Mannoroth and Archimonde to deal with most resistance, so they didnt send in the entire legion.. When Neltharion then wiped out the invasion force, they decided not to invade it anymore in the form of armies since he would wipe out any attacking forces immediately, so instead they were going for a more intellectual approach and beat them from the inside (Starting with the recruitment of Illidan, and developing from that).. What I showed you was exactly what it was.. A couple of hundred demons. Could be raised to perhaps around a thousand, plus/minus some hundred if we include the demon base which was never used for offense.

Because the necromancer had broken out of the Lich King's grasp, perhaps? Because he wanted to avenge both living and undead, perhaps? Because he hated what the Lich King had done to him, perhaps? Just perhaps.. But what do I know? I've only read the book..


Contributed very little? Could that perhaps be because I have not involved myself in this debate more than a little? I've brought you scans for all my statements. You just wont accept the scans as proof. You've been proven wrong multiple times, but you never accept it. You always try find ways around it.. Your problem is that your narrow-minded. You wont accept proof even if it's located right in front of you, as long as it doesnt serve your already set mind.. I've brought you proof for all statements I've made (In your eyes maybe I havent, big deal, I dont care), but you have not accepted a single one of them because it doesnt stack with your logic. This is why this will be my final post in this debate, because no matter how much proof I provide, no matter how many scans I bring you, you wouldnt agree on a single thing that would talk in the disadvantage of the Scourge. That's the way you debate. That's how you've always debated and that's the reason I hate debating with you.


Perhaps you will "teach" me what you have understood from the books, I would prob see a diffrent view like anyone else who may read literature. I like to respond to most points, since it may be influential to others even if you do not read it.

Regardless of whether it was small or not, small in what? you prove in this paragraph alone that you dont actually know or you are skepitcal of your own proof by saying a few thousand max....so obviously what you showed was not enough and that was included in with all the night elves dont forget.

Indeed, if the book doesnt say then you wouldnt know.

But its not good proof, you can "provide" proof, your proof could be in the form of a "pwned" video from youtube but it wouldnt be very useful, the same could be said for this information, the informaiton you have provided is not proof of the legions numbers on Azeroth because not only does it say Demons AND night elves int he hundreds, I was interested in the numbers of the enite invasion force in WoTA, Neltharians attack did not destroy "all" of the invasion did it? that was simply in the Demon soul area of the battle otherwise there couldnt have been demons to be fought during Sargs banishment.

Ime sorry but I dont accept unworthy proof, for the reasons ive stated...these are not good pieces of evidence for claims.

Originally posted by Nozdormu
You do realise that mature and adult dragons have been referred to as wyrms in the book? No, ofcourse not.. You havent read the books.. A wyrm is a dragon in its adult state.. There's nothing saying a frostwyrm would be any different in stage of maturity than a normal wyrm, since the frostwyrm is in fact resurrected dragons.. Probably the adult ones, as it is referred to as a wyrm. Frostwyrm. Just like how Korialstrasz is referred to as a red wyrm. Kalecgos is referred to as a blue wyrm. At one point I believe Soridormi was referred to as a broze wyrm. Since a frostwyrm is a resurrected dragon and the adult form of a dragon is a wyrm, it doesnt matter what you say about the Frostwyrm, since your knowledge in the matter is obviously incomplete for claiming a wyrm to be different from an adult, since it's just two words with the same meaning.
When you say a Frostwyrm is larger by far, it's your own speculations and inaccurate at that. Tyrygosa in Sunwell Triology is roughly the size of the Frostwyrm there (Somewhat smaller, but not a significant difference). Then if we compare her to Sapphiron (In WoW, which you've used to bring out the size the Flesh Titans so a very legit estimation), they too are roughly the same size (Again smaller, but not significant size difference.. I'll finish this post with a scan of her size, as a final contribution to this thread (Although according to you I've contributed nothing). You have absolutely no base in claiming that a Frostwyrm is larger than a normal dragon, since outside the games, the only Frostwyrm we've seen (in written lore) the one in Sunwell, which is estimated to Tyrygosa's size. You are ASSUMING that a Frostwyrm is larger, since it sound better in your ears, although all proof existant so far (Both in Naxxramas, WC3 and Sunwell Triology) indicate in absolutely not one single way that a frostwyrm is larger..


Still PIS? He was inevitable defeated by Neltharion, but he could hold his own for quite some time.. Just like how Varian Wrynn could defeat a stone giant with only physical means.. Varian Wrynn who was not even the size of the giants fist could match its strength, break out of its grasp and strike back at it.. I dont know what logic your using, if it's LoK logic, Burning Thought logic or whatever, but in warcraft, size doesnt always matter. This is another fact you'll have to accept, as we've seen it over and over.. We've seen Grom beat Mannoroth, Varian beat a stone giant, Broll a magma avatar..


First you ask if it's hurt, then you say it doesnt feel pain? Do you ever read trough what you write? Anyway, to the point..
- The Frostwyrm was damaged in the fight against the blue dragon.. The wing was damaged, as well as pieces of its head and arm (Indications that she was able to "harm" it) I would scan it for you, but the details are so distant in even the comic, so even if I did scan it, you probably wouldnt see it.. Even if you could see it, you wouldnt accept it anyway, since it'd go against your idealistic view of the Frostwyrm to have it damaged by a weakened blue dragon without PIS..
- Physical strength of the undead? No.. Physical endurance? Yes, that is more advanced. But if anything, a resurrected person is physically weaker. Also seen in the Sunwell triology where a random average elf is able to take several skeleton elves by himself and without any effort. Same when a dwarf take on two human skeletons by himself and physically overpower them.. The other example, which is the one you wont accept, is where the weakened blue dragon is able to match the slightly larger frostwyrm's strength.
- Larger than the female blue dragon? Yes, it was. Which makes it rather sad, since the blue dragon was still able to match the frostwyrm, even while weakened.




Completely knocked down by Azeroth? Heh.. One time annhiliated the Demon Soul.. Another time by the essence of the Well of Eternity.. Yeah, that's obviously embaressing losses, both of them.. The Entire scourge would perish in one single blast of the Demon Soul.. As would they with a single blast from the well of Eternity.. They did fail the attack against Azeroth, yes, but only when they had extremely powerful artifacts/powersources.. Since you havent read the book, so you wouldnt know, the troops of the Burning Legion has every single time been superior to the troops on Azeroth. Both the average magicians and melee warriors have been physically and magically superior the defenders of Azeroth. They only succeeses at defending has been because the Azerothian heroes, such as Malfurion, Illidan, Rhonin, Krasus, Korialstrasz, Tyrande, Broxigar and even some dragons had been at constant defense.. The few times that the Legion used their heroes, Azeroth was forced to pull back..


So bottom line of that paragraph: Azeroth with a high quantity of highly powerful heroes was despite their brave attempts to defend Azeroth pushed back constantly even without the involving of Archimonde and Mannoroth.. So it was Azeroth's armies and Azeroth's heroes versus the legion and they were still losing (Until the point where Neltharion used the disk).. So the fact that you say they are pathetic shows just how little you actually know in the matter..

No army that can push back without the involving of Burning Legion leaders in combat those mentioned heroes and the defending armies of Azeroth can be considered pathetic except for in your completely BIASed mind where you are unwilling to accept fact.





And as promised, the scan of the Blue Dragon's size


The MoM states Wyrms and Mature diffrent so my knowledge is as complete as the MoM is. Its larger in the view that a Wyrm and Mature is diffrent, if Mature means adult as the dictionary says "full development" then the wyrm is something more, and in the MoM RPG book it states Wyrms as being bigger which is my proof, not speculation.

Logic in itself..general real world logic, size can be a massive factor depending on the beings at hand, if a being of massive size lets say 50 feet and fights a being who is 6 feet of eactley the same build...then the 50 foot being wold be physiall stronger by far....but then again perhaps the aspects are not as large as I imagined, perhaps their simply Wyrms like any other in size at least otherwise Nelthirian was major PIS if he was equelled in strength by a smaller dragon.

By hurt i meant is it damaged then, do you have to be so nit picky, basically was it damaged is hwat i meant. Yes sad that such PIS is incredible, what makes you think them weaker? hell maybe less intelligent if they are not being directly controlled for an important task and their going freestyle with their small minds alone but ive not seen anything state a Ghoul weaker than a man for instance,ghouls slash men to pieces.

Well thanks for your incredible amounts of speculation....what backs up the entire scourge dieing in one blast? ridiculous...Azeroth had more heroes full stop, the Legions heroes are usually heavy hitters like Archimonde but in the end,what does he really do? I dont remember him causing a permanent damage himself, the damage to the tree and such was the decision of the elves so you cant put that damage on Archimondes hands and he was destroyed, the Legion seemed to be smacked down whenever they have tried anything major, Archimonde, Mannaroth, Sargeras even.....Kiljaeden is now outsmarted and failed in stopping the LK gaining a body "sigh", the legion are obviously not used to an actual fight.

They are pathetic due to them losig so much and not worth their salt, the Scourge are far more fearsome than the legion.

There is very little or few fact at all that has been given to balance points, for example hundreds of Night elves and Demons does not= entire Legion invasion force during WoTA....

hm fairly large, how is that a small one? is it stated as being small....but anyway as I said PIS that it could dare stop a Frsot wyrm, but tbh this encounter isnt worth speaking of for any beings strength...it was a quck battle that wasnt even finished.

Originally posted by Burning thought
well then that Frost wyrm is a weakling, who raised that Frostwyrm? do you know where it was raised, if it was that Necromancers then the likelines is that its not a LK Northrend Wyrm OR major PIS/CIS on the Frost wyrms sake, the things are menaces, also how did they melt dwarves? didnt it have frost breath or did it frsot shatter them?
A necromancer using the Orb of Ner'Zhul.

Don't form judgements by singling a member of a unit out simply because you believe them to be "weak". No, they were quite strong in the manga, but still have power insignificant to those of a dragon's. Tyragosa was technically still young at the time and she still was about the Frost Wyrm's size.

According to logic, you factually have no grounds at all to call out plot-induced stupidity, considering that there's never been a dragon vs a Frost Wyrm in WoW. Even more, you can simply compare the statistics of a dragon to those of a frost wyrm in WarCraft III.

http://www.battle.net/war3/neutral/dragons.shtml#dragon
http://www.battle.net/war3/undead/units/frostwyrm.shtml

As you can see, dragon >> frost wyrm.

Not by that much, besides your using gameplay states to adjust, if you use that, then:

http://www.wowwiki.com/Nefarian_%28tactics%29

http://www.wowwiki.com/Sapphiron_%28tactics%29

Sapphiron has a whopping 900k HP more than the now perhaps most powerful active black dragon in the game. The fact remains however, Sapphiron who is a frost wyrm has more health, has an AOE aura, and he does about 3k with an icebolt that also stuns and freezes those hit..Nefarians most powerful attack seems to do 1k damage, if that...Sapphiron has a massive AOE 70 yard blast of frost that doest 75-125k which is incredible...thats among his many other powers to slow, AOE and drain life, Frost wyrms obviously are not as weak as one would assume, they have many attacks themselves, ive never heard of normal dragons like reds draining health to health themselves for example.

Ah, but how WoW stats are adjusted is enormously different to those of an RTS, wouldn't you agree?

WoW is based on individual unit progression, which is why it's a complete failure in terms of individual strength in relationship to the plot. The RTS is not. A fully grown black dragon easily overpowers a young blue one, but according to WoW Kalecgos would own Nafarian in a curbstomp.

Do you see the faults in your logic here?


Your argument on usage of gameplay is poorly thought out, sorry to say.

It san interesting topic, despite how old it is, so im gonna leave a post in here.

Anyway, it is still hard to figure which force would win, since we dont really have a scenario. Doe sthe Legion invade Azeroth? Or does the Scourge invade the Legions frontier world Outland?

Although the Legion is great in numbers as stated in warcraft 3 by Kel'Thuzad.

It is known throughout the lore that it requires alot of magic to bring the Legion to another world. Even when the portal re-opened in Blasted Lands when the Burning Crusade expansion went in to the stores. Soldiers of the Alliance and Horde was able to hold the line and contain the demonic invasion force. And may I point out that invasion force consisted mostly of Infernals and Felguards given I was there with my character.

As for the Scourge, they too are vast in number, but not as great as the Legion. But they reanimate every foe they slay. Being able to reanimate a demon however, is out of my knowledge. Also I have to point out that due to recent lore changes followed with the Wrath of the Lich King expansion, it is shown that the Scourge forces has grown in power considerably.

However I still think the Legion would win, given they have had thousand of years to collect magic and power from severals worlds. However, I can not denie the potential the Scourge has. It is stated by a conversation between Tirion and Darion that for every moment that pass, the power of the Lich King grows. And assuming the Scourge reached the peak of it spotential and conquered the entire world of Azeroth. I believe it would have a fair chance against the Legion, because they would gain the sunwell and the water beneath the world tree and the trees own energy.

The Burning Legion magicians are more potent magicials, of larger numbers, and generally even more endurant.

The Burning Legion is superior the Scourge in numbers, and median physical strength.

The Burning Legion leaders vastly outpower the leaders of the Scourge. Kil'Jaeden would accidentally kill Kel'Thuzad in mere crossfire, and Sargeras could fart in the Lich King's general direction and win.

Sargeras alone could take out the entire Scourge's combined effort.


Of course, OP stated that no leaders are involved, which also tip it in the Burning Legion's favor. Larger numbers, stronger per individual, more potent magic, more adaptive, more intelligent.

In any setting, the Burning Legion win.

Main case: In War of the Ancients, the Burning Legion in sheer numbers and basic strength defeated the Gods of Azeroth. Cenarius was eventually brought to his knees by common grunts and flames. The Burning Legion without involvement of leaders felled numerous Gods. Several of these Gods would plow through the Scourge like it was not even there.

This did not even dent their current numbers on Azeroth alone, and their numbers on Azeroth weren't even a fraction of their total amount.

well, idk about that. it seems to me that the scourge cannot be completely wiped out, without a massively powerful being (kil'jeaden+), because of how arthas ended. there always needs to be a lich king, or else the scourge would simply run rampant on azeroth. if they could be wiped out, id think they would just do that....maybe they were thinking it'd just be easier this way, idk.

I really don't think that the Scourge running rampant would be a problem for the Legion as it is for Azeroth. Left without the Lich King the Scourge would quickly be subjugated by Dreadlords, Eredar, or anyone powerful enough, really; or simply be eradicated. It's also very likely that Kil'jaeden would simply take control of the Scourge from the Lich King and end the whole fight very quickly indeed.

Originally posted by menokokoro
well, idk about that. it seems to me that the scourge cannot be completely wiped out, without a massively powerful being (kil'jeaden+), because of how arthas ended. there always needs to be a lich king, or else the scourge would simply run rampant on azeroth. if they could be wiped out, id think they would just do that....maybe they were thinking it'd just be easier this way, idk.

I don't see how the Scourge going wild has any effect on how the Burning Legion would succeed. In fact, the Burning Legion would benefit of it as it would make the Scourge lack the structure that they currently have under the command of the Lich King.
The Lich King provide the Undead with what little intelligence they have, and in his absence, they would be sheer violence and destructions incarnate. Reckless attacks would benefit the Burning Legion who is physically and magically superior.

Felguard vs Ghoul....

Eredar Warlock Vs Lich, I suppose it'd all come down to. And the Eredar Warlocks are far more destructive.

Off-topic but I am curious, has anyone really succeeded in beating the Lich King? all thats happened by the looks of it is that Fordragon is the avatar if you will, instead of Arthas. Unless Fordragon is impossible to defeat in willpower (unlikely, I would bet money that Fordragon gets corrupted and becomes a conveniant reason for the LK to return in a content expansion) then surely they have succeeded in nothing against the LK. Infact, it may be benefical trading a young mans body for that of someone who looks enchanted/powered.

Also what books should I consider to read if I wanted to learn more about Eredar, the legion and what went on outside of the warcraft 3 cinematics. Is it War of the ancients?

Originally posted by Burning thought
Off-topic but I am curious, has anyone really succeeded in beating the Lich King? all thats happened by the looks of it is that Fordragon is the avatar if you will, instead of Arthas. Unless Fordragon is impossible to defeat in willpower (unlikely, I would bet money that Fordragon gets corrupted and becomes a conveniant reason for the LK to return in a content expansion) then surely they have succeeded in nothing against the LK. Infact, it may be benefical trading a young mans body for that of someone who looks enchanted/powered.

Also what books should I consider to read if I wanted to learn more about Eredar, the legion and what went on outside of the warcraft 3 cinematics. Is it War of the ancients?

Yep, the Lich King was all good and beaten. The only reason Bolvar decided to become the "avatar" is to keep control of the rampaging Scourge that was left without a leader.

War of the Ancients Trilogy is a pretty good read. 'Manual of Monsters' and 'Shadows & Light' are also good sources of info.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Off-topic but I am curious, has anyone really succeeded in beating the Lich King? all thats happened by the looks of it is that Fordragon is the avatar if you will, instead of Arthas. Unless Fordragon is impossible to defeat in willpower (unlikely, I would bet money that Fordragon gets corrupted and becomes a conveniant reason for the LK to return in a content expansion) then surely they have succeeded in nothing against the LK. Infact, it may be benefical trading a young mans body for that of someone who looks enchanted/powered.

Also what books should I consider to read if I wanted to learn more about Eredar, the legion and what went on outside of the warcraft 3 cinematics. Is it War of the ancients?

The Lich King is probably the most actively defeated final WoW boss to date. As for the Bolvar point, Bolvar has greater willpower and discipline than Ner'Zhul was displayed to have in Rise of the Horde.

If you want to learn more about the Eredar, and the Legion, I would actually suggest Rise of the Horde over War of the Ancients, but both help you understand it better.

Originally posted by Q'Anilia
The Lich King is probably the most actively defeated final WoW boss to date. As for the Bolvar point, Bolvar has greater willpower and discipline than Ner'Zhul was displayed to have in Rise of the Horde.

If you want to learn more about the Eredar, and the Legion, I would actually suggest Rise of the Horde over War of the Ancients, but both help you understand it better.

War of the Ancient imo gives a more overall picture of the Legions army, how it fights etc, while the Rise of the Horde certainly gives alot more to understand how the legion works, thinks etc. Both books are important though imo. And as mentioned before Shadows and Light and Manual of Monsters are also very good for info on individual characters and what powerlevel they operate on.

A side question, Is the current lich king as powerful as the previous one? I mean Ner'Zhul was transformed into his state by Kil'Jaeden so what exactly happened to the current lich king in terms of a power boost if any?

Originally posted by Utrigita

A side question, Is the current lich king as powerful as the previous one? I mean Ner'Zhul was transformed into his state by Kil'Jaeden so what exactly happened to the current lich king in terms of a power boost if any?

It's unknown, I think. The current Lich King is probably weaker if anything, since Frostmourne got destroyed.

Ok so rise of the horde and ancients.

Also as Glory said, lack of Frostmourne may be a weak point although I was under the impression that the helm of dominance was where the main power was and based on appearances alone, I would imagine Bolvar is far stronger than Arthas. I would not be surprised if what has happened does not benefit the LK in some way.