Most Wasteful Death

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Blax_Hydralisk
List people whom you think shouldn't have been killed off for whatever reasons yo want, wither it be just likig the character, or maybe feeling that they had potential to be a much better character, felt that the death was unnecessary etc.

Mara Jade for me, personally, because she was my favorite star wars chick by a mile and I don't see any reason to kill her off.

Icy Ninja
Chewbacca, killing off one of the originals is just a crime especially since anakin dies later on making chewie death completly pointless

Dark-Jaxx
Chewbacca for one...Come on seriously, what kinda of fvcked up bullshit is that?

Personally, although Darth Nihilus obviously should have died, I think his character should have been expanded on beforehand.

Blue_Hefner
Darth Caedus. It should have been Luke instead. I know a lot people hated him and all, but at least he was willing to do more for the galaxy than Luke was.

Tangible God
I'd rather list the people whose death I approved of:

1. Chewbacca. His EU self sucked.
2. Gantoris. I don't know, I just didn't like him.
3. Mara. Never cared for her character.
4. Caedus. Jacen sucked as a villain.
5. Borsk Fey'lya. He was a jerk.
6. Sadly not Lowbacca or Zaalbar. I don't like Wookies.
7. Sadly not Juhani. Awkward, dyke, kitty-cat.
8. Luke (but not soon enough). Less of the originals that survived to be marred by EU, the better.

I actually didn't like the unnecessary death of Pellaeon.

Rampant ox
Grand Moff Tarkin. He was a superb villain who didn't have nearly enough screen time; albeit, Peter Cushing's performance dominated every second of film he was in.

Schwarzenegger
Count dooku, he was awesome.

Gideon
Wasteful? Both Tarkin and Dooku had to die. Mara Jade Skywalker and Gilad Pellaeon, easily.

Lt. Valerian
I agree. I do not understand why so many people dislike Mara Jade. To me, she's one of the best female characters in SW.

caedusrulesall
*Invincible Spoiler, but you probably should know not to read this thread if you haven't read Invincible*




Gilad Pellaeon, really. He was so old, he should've died naturally beforehand. Stupid Karen Traviss. Although I do approve of Tahiri killing him because she became yet another traitor to the Alliance.

And despite how many people unneededly hated Caedus, I think that they should have allowed him some more time to become a better villain before he died. I mean, he really only started acting like a proper Sith in Invincible. Plus, having built up his power all the way back from Traitor, it sucked that Jaina, who'd only been training since Fury, ended up killing him.

The big EH
jaina was also instensely traing with mandalorians though

Blax_Hydralisk
Originally posted by Lt. Valerian
I agree. I do not understand why so many people dislike Mara Jade. To me, she's one of the best female characters in SW.

Agreed. She was the yin to Luke's overly self-righteous Jesus like yang.

Lord Knightfa11
Maul and Jango. Maul is supposed to be this god and he got pwnt by a padawan so now everyone will always use that against maul. Same thing with jango. He kiled jedi with his bare hands. His death was kinda pointless.

Allankles
Mara wasn't much of a big loss, it was precisely because she wasn't a big loss that the writers sacrificed her. She started off well in the Zahn books, but I don't think she was Luke's best match, and also the way Zahn made her the one that killed C'Baoth wasn't very cool, neither was Luuke the clone (but that's another story).

Jacen was wasted, he seemed to be set to bring some spark into a New Jedi Order that was (in comparison to the golden age era) pretty unremarkable. He looked set to be the next Qui Gon but the authors screwed it up, turning his character into something it was not.

How does a thoughtful pacifist who went through a rebirth in Traitor, turn into a mad Sith Lord? Really!

Chewbacca's death was no big deal either, they never really used him in the EU - and because of that they could easily kill him off. There are many characters I could say that about including Jaina who's been characterized so poorly once she became a jedi knight.

Killing Leia and Han now, would also be pointless since their importance to the EU has depreciated, the authors should let them die of natural causes.

Allankles
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
Maul and Jango. Maul is supposed to be this god and he got pwnt by a padawan so now everyone will always use that against maul. Same thing with jango. He kiled jedi with his bare hands. His death was kinda pointless.

I disagree about Jango. He was a bounty hunter with good combat skills but his death demonstrated that for all his weapons he was no match for the power of the force or more precisely, a Jedi who wielded the force with authority.

He was there to be an example of what the true battle was, which was ultimately Jedi vs Sith. Jango's pride got him killed, he should have used a sniper rifle and stayed away from the center of the arena.

Master Crimzon
I can't really tell what death pissed me off the most- as no character I REALLY LIKE had ever died unnnecessarily- but I can certainly tell you whose deaths I would most like to see:

Luke Skywalker. The guy pisses me off so much- as Blax put it, 'overly self-righteous Jesus like yang'. Plus, he's insanely overpowered, overused, and just grossly lame- I hope that when he dies, it's painful, and we get explicit descriptions of the blood and gore bursting out of his orfices. That'll be good.

Boba Fett. Although originally badass, Karen Traviss ruined him. She should die along with him.

Leia. Sorry, but she isn't a cool girl anymore- just a boring, overused old woman who should die.

However, I might note... isn't anyone interested in what would've happened if Thrawn hadn't died?

Elite Hunter
Thrawn is the one character that deserves a comeback, to bad that one clone was killed by Mara and Luke.

Tangible God
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Luke Skywalker. The guy pisses me off so much- as Blax put it, 'overly self-righteous Jesus like yang'. Plus, he's insanely overpowered, overused, and just grossly lame- I hope that when he dies, it's painful, and we get explicit descriptions of the blood and gore bursting out of his orfices. That'll be good. That'd be awesome, but don't count on it. When they kill off Luke Skywalker, it's gonna unfold like Dragonball Z: his transcendence into the Force will be marked as one of the natural wonders of the Universe, and take a whole novel to do it.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Tangible God
That'd be awesome, but don't count on it. When they kill of Luke Skywalker, it's gonna unfold like Dragonball Z: his transcendence into the Force will be marked as one of the natural wonders of the Universe, and take a whole novel to do it.

Yea good luck at George Lucas' greatest hero die any death other than a natural one.

Gideon
LOL @ Luke Skywalker being "overused" and "overpowered".

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Gideon
LOL @ Luke Skywalker being "overused" and "overpowered".


Yea exactly. The son of the chosen one really SHOULDNT have all of these powers and shouldn't be the most powerful force user in the star wars mythos, because that would be totally ridiculous. Oh wait.

Gideon
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Yea exactly. The son of the chosen one really SHOULDNT have all of these powers and shouldn't be the most powerful force user in the star wars mythos, because that would be totally ridiculous. Oh wait.

Not quite what I meant. Authors rarely depict Skywalker in his full form and regard him as a deus ex machina, so they either nullify his powers or don't ever use him.

But I'm not stupid, either. Luke shouldn't be able to go "LULZ" and own everyone. He has to be threatened, otherwise the antagonist loses credibility, and thus the story suffers dramatically. Which is why Lumiya was and remains a bajillion times smarter than he will ever be. Luke's a nice guy, but he's an idiot.

Blax_Hydralisk
When God gives you lemons you FIND A NEW GOD!!!

Tangible God
Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
When God gives you lemons you FIND A NEW GOD!!! That was one of Luke's favourite mottos after he ingested a preposterous amount of testosterone: Preposterone.

Master Crimzon
LOL.

And the problem with Luke Skywalker is the fact that no one will dare write a villain more powerful than him- and in stories, it's ludicrious when the hero is more powerful than the villain. This is part of the reason why most post-RotJ things suck incredibly hard. The authors not using Luke to his full extent, despite his powers, make stories odd, weird, and unrealistic. For example: Why didn't he kill Caedus? "Because he didn't want Ben to turn the dark side!". An example of both an unrealistic thing and Luke's characteristic, annoying self-righteousness.

He deserves to die.

Blax_Hydralisk
Originally posted by Allankles
Mara wasn't much of a big loss, it was precisely because she wasn't a big loss that the writers sacrificed her.

She made Luke tolerable imo. Her dark sense of humor and mannerisms went well with his naive point of view on things and his personality. It was just a nice balance is all.

Now that she's dead Luke bores me.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
LOL.

And the problem with Luke Skywalker is the fact that no one will dare write a villain more powerful than him- and in stories, it's ludicrious when the hero is more powerful than the villain. This is part of the reason why most post-RotJ things suck incredibly hard. The authors not using Luke to his full extent, despite his powers, make stories odd, weird, and unrealistic. For example: Why didn't he kill Caedus? "Because he didn't want Ben to turn the dark side!". An example of both an unrealistic thing and Luke's characteristic, annoying self-righteousness.

He deserves to die.

This doesn't make any sense. Who would be more powerful than the son of the chosen one? The closest enemy we have is Sidious. They had to ridiculously overpower Jacen for him to be a decent villain, and that idea failed miserably.

Master Crimzon
I know. I'm personally not a big fan of planet-exploding characters (DBZ, anyone?), so I don't really like that line of EU work (Dark Empire and its likes), but I suppose if there's one character who deserves to be that, is Luke. Sure it makes sense that he's extremely powerful, but knowing that no villain can possibly match him in power is immensely annoying. I'm not saying it's entirely the fault of the authors, as no character can potentially exceed him in power, but...

Oh well. I hate the concept of the Sith's survival after RotJ, anywayz.

Darth Exodus
They should bring back some kind of uber-Sith ancient from like Ajunta Pall's age who would know a SD-load of techniques and all kind of freaky shit and make him/her/it be the anti-Luke. Nihilus would be good, didn't his holocron mention something about him actually surivingthrough his armour?
What would also be good would be if a dark-side Rakatan comes back to life. They should explore how powerful the infinate empires forceusers were and how they differ from the current era.

Anyway, Luke should die a real heroes death that will make all the pro-Lukes happy and also all the anti-Lukes. Something like the Third Hokages death in Naruto. Yeah, him losing his soul and suffering for millennia would be good.

Elite Hunter
Originally posted by Darth Exodus
They should bring back some kind of uber-Sith ancient from like Ajunta Pall's age.

Well the authors could bring back Marka Ragnos if they wanted, his spirt wasn't destroyed in JA, but I'd imagine that it would be hard to explain his return.

Darth Exodus
Harder than explaining how Darth Krayt knew Anakin and Obi-Wan 120 yrs after their deaths?
In my opinion, if Maul can just randomly be ressurected out of the blue, then anyone can.

Elite Hunter
Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Harder than explaining how Darth Krayt knew Anakin and Obi-Wan 120 yrs after their deaths?
In my opinion, if Maul can just randomly be ressurected out of the blue, then anyone can.

I meant harder as in making a sense and not giving some sub-par explanation.

Blax_Hydralisk
Why do they have to a new villain Luke's equal in strength and powers? Thrawn is one of the greatest villains in the EU, yet he had the strength and "powers" of a normal man. He was just incredibly intelligent. I'd prefer that over some uber powerful planet busting idiot like Jacen was.

Gideon
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
LOL.

And the problem with Luke Skywalker is the fact that no one will dare write a villain more powerful than him- and in stories, it's ludicrious when the hero is more powerful than the villain.

Off the top of my head, I can think of two iconic superheroes who are "more powerful" than their counterparts: Superman and He-Man, who are more potent and more skilled than their archenemies: Lex Luthor and Skeletor. Does that prevent them from being threatened? No. Both Luthor and Skeletor (despite at times being portrayed remarkably campy and maniacal) both have limitless ambition and zero morality; both of them are capable of complex plots and schemes that dwarf the imagination, they're smarter than their enemies. It can work fine. It makes the villain even more impressive.



It defies logic to summon some magical character to suddenly outclass Luke Skywalker in Force prowess. Palpatine was the greatest and most powerful of all Sith; he's dead. Prior to that, the Jedi Purge dealt with all those who could potentially challenge the Emperor. Basically, the pool of Force users -- even in post-LotF times -- is extremely shallow. While I was exaggerating that Luke was an idiot, he's not (by any means) genius material. Characters like Grand Admiral Thrawn and even Lumiya have threatened Luke because he cannot compete with their vastly more capable intellects and calculating viciousness.



No, he doesn't. You're just being whiney.



Agreed. No one, at this point, should logically be able to compete with Skywalker in natural potency after the deaths of Jacen Solo and Emperor Palpatine. Now, I can tolerate the likes of Nyax, Kueller, and Raynor using clever means to boost their Force powers and being able to challenge Skywalker, but clever villains like Thrawn and Xizor are the ones to truly fear.



Once again, they are right in the fact that Luke must be challenged, otherwise, yes, he should die. Perhaps not in an outright confrontation, but in someway.

Better yet, authors could stop going "LULZ THREATEN LUKE SKYWALKER" and set themselves up for massive disappointment and instead focus on something other than galactic-level threats and war? Luke's arguably the most powerful Force user in the saga, but he's not omniscient, he's never demonstrated remarkable foresight (because, as I say, his control is shit and he's average intelligence at best). There can be threats and villains that he isn't aware of.

truejedi
Pelleon's death was pretty stupid. They made it seem like he trapped all the moff's he wanted to kill on board with him, but apparently not, because their death's don't even slow the empire down. It seemed brilliant actually, until you realize that the Empire went ahead and joined Caedus anyway, because he absolutey HAD to have some allies at that time or would have been pretty much all over....
But the fact that the empire joined Caedus anyway made Pelleon's death pretty pointless...

Elite Hunter
Well while everyone is talking about Luke, I was ended up turning to Spike to watch a bit of A New Hope before I go out to dinner and right before it begins they do a little behind the scenes talking with Lucas and in the mini documentary he says that at one point in the ANH draft Luke was going to be a midget!

Allankles
Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
She made Luke tolerable imo. Her dark sense of humor and mannerisms went well with his naive point of view on things and his personality. It was just a nice balance is all.

Now that she's dead Luke bores me.

I don't know what EU you've been reading, the naive fanboy in Luke died before Mara Jade hooked up with Luke. If you remember the hand of thrawn duology, Luke by that point was a master of the force and any naivety he used to have had been purged by his experiences.

Mara Jade was a good ally, a strong willed Jedi that could kick some ass, I just never felt she was Luke's best match, their union didn't progress as naturally as Luke's previous love interests and I didn't see as much of a connection as Luke had with women like Gaeriel Captison or Callista.

Gideon
Originally posted by Allankles
I don't know what EU you've been reading, the naive fanboy in Luke died before Mara Jade hooked up with Luke. If you remember the hand of thrawn duology, Luke by that point was a master of the force and any naivety he used to have had been purged by his experiences.

Skywalker lost a lot of his naivety after his confrontation with his father in Return of the Jedi. The majority of what was left died after his experiences with the reborn Emperor on Byss. Still, Luke Skywalker remains a hopeless idealist, even as of LotF.



Say what? Out of all of them, Mara was the most interesting by far. Callista cared more about her connection to the Force and subsequent loss of powers than Luke himself and ran off. That's pathetic and emo. Mara Jade? Antithesis and complementary to Luke in every aspect. Her backstory as the personal assassin of his greatest enemy and Imperial allegiance gives her a different view on just about everything. Her subsequent discovery that her master manipulated her left her damaged and, clearly, unwilling to trust others. It wasn't the cliched "love at first sight" but rather a bond that formed and deepened over years of companionship. That is interesting. Callista's "waa! I haff no Force bye Looke Im gonna go off and cry" routine isn't.

Blax_Hydralisk
Originally posted by Gideon
Still, Luke Skywalker remains a hopeless idealist, even as of LotF.


Correct, and this is what I was referring to by naivety. Specifically, his belief that "anybody can be saved!", and his "noez that leads to the dark side!". He didn't really shake this off until much later. Coolest part of LotF is when Luke goes off.

Gideon
Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
Correct, and this is what I was referring to by naivety. Specifically, his belief that "anybody can be saved!", and his "noez that leads to the dark side!". He didn't really shake this off until much later. Coolest part of LotF is when Luke goes off.

Amen.

Blax_Hydralisk
Too be honest, I actually liked Anakin's whiny self-centered attitude more then Luke's naive outlook on things... at least Anakin would take you out without a second thought if he thought you were a threat. Screw the "Let him live so he can come bite me in the ass later" idea. His only problem is that he was too impressionable... Luke's kind of an idiot buthe's stalwart enough in his idiocy to nnot get turned to the dark side and stuff.

Mace was what Anakin could have been..

http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/5/5a/Mara_Fighting_Stormies.png

And how could anyone say no to that? She's the smexiest.

Allankles
Originally posted by Gideon


Say what? Out of all of them, Mara was the most interesting by far. Callista cared more about her connection to the Force and subsequent loss of powers than Luke himself and ran off. That's pathetic and emo. Mara Jade? Antithesis and complementary to Luke in every aspect. Her backstory as the personal assassin of his greatest enemy and Imperial allegiance gives her a different view on just about everything. Her subsequent discovery that her master manipulated her left her damaged and, clearly, unwilling to trust others. It wasn't the cliched "love at first sight" but rather a bond that formed and deepened over years of companionship. That is interesting. Callista's "waa! I haff no Force bye Looke Im gonna go off and cry" routine isn't.

Believe or not it is precisely for her background that I felt she would be a great friend and ally to Luke, not a lover. And Callista did indeed ran off, but I was talking about her natural chemistry with Luke, Mara always seemed like a rival, then an ally then something more by the conclusion of the Thrawn saga, but she was never a natural fit.

Antithesis or not, that doesn't qualify her as the best match among Luke's many interests. But I honestly think Gaeriel was the best of Luke's interests there was a maturity and wisdom to her that seemed to compliment Luke's idealism and forthrightness perfectly. Kyle would have been great with Mara if he didn't have a commitment with Jan.

And taking nothing away from Mara she certainly had the most colourful story of all of Luke's interests I just didn't see her as the best fit, Gaeriel's personality and character complimented Luke better imv.

Master Crimzon
Originally posted by Gideon
Off the top of my head, I can think of two iconic superheroes who are "more powerful" than their counterparts: Superman and He-Man, who are more potent and more skilled than their archenemies: Lex Luthor and Skeletor. Does that prevent them from being threatened? No. Both Luthor and Skeletor (despite at times being portrayed remarkably campy and maniacal) both have limitless ambition and zero morality; both of them are capable of complex plots and schemes that dwarf the imagination, they're smarter than their enemies. It can work fine. It makes the villain even more impressive.

Percisely. This is why I said that Thrawn will be an infinitely more interesting villain than Caedus- I mean, why make the central villain of a story be a supernaturally powerful idiot if he can't even challenge the 'top' hero?



Originally posted by Gideon
It defies logic to summon some magical character to suddenly outclass Luke Skywalker in Force prowess. Palpatine was the greatest and most powerful of all Sith; he's dead. Prior to that, the Jedi Purge dealt with all those who could potentially challenge the Emperor. Basically, the pool of Force users -- even in post-LotF times -- is extremely shallow. While I was exaggerating that Luke was an idiot, he's not (by any means) genius material. Characters like Grand Admiral Thrawn and even Lumiya have threatened Luke because he cannot compete with their vastly more capable intellects and calculating viciousness.

Oh, I know no character can logically challenge Luke Skywalker (as you said, the only one who would have a remote chance, Sidious, is dead. And if he gets resurrected, I'm gonna shoot myself). But, regardless, instead of using a super-intelligent, diabolical guy like Thrawn and Lumiya (she's a gal, but... w/e) be the main anatagonist, they resort to making one of the "I'll crush you with my uber powerz!!!" anatagonists. It's ludicrious when the protagonist outclasses said villain.

Personally, I prefer villains who are both highly intelligent and powerful- an example from comic books, as you've used it above, is Dr. Doom. While I don't much care for the actual personalities of the vast majority of comic book heroes, Doom is both immensely intelligent- a counter to Reed Richard's genius-level intellect- and more powerful, individually, than any one of his foes on the Fantastic Four.



Originally posted by Gideon
No, he doesn't. You're just being whiney.

sad I guess I am. But I hate him. And I think that if he dies, Star Wars will be far more interesting, when they can, once again, make villains that can actually, due to their actual power, threaten the heroes.

Gideon
Yeah, I don't see how anyone can hate Luke Skywalker, since it's practically impossible to not root for him. He's so powerful and still manages to not turn into an utter Gary Stu (i.e. Revan, Thrawn, Corran Horn).

Dark-Jaxx
I personally have never liked Luke. no expression

Not even in the movies.

Tangible God
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
I personally have never liked Luke. no expression

Not even in the movies. Me either. ROTJ was alright in my mind, but little else.

Dr. Styles
Originally posted by Gideon
Yeah, I don't see how anyone can hate Luke Skywalker, since it's practically impossible to not root for him. He's so powerful and still manages to not turn into an utter Gary Stu (i.e. Revan, Thrawn, Corran Horn).

Yeah because he's so damn powerful the authors cripple him with either indecision or flat out idiocy, which does NOT due justice to the fact that he's a 60+ year old Jedi Grand Master who shouldn't be struggling with so much internal conflict at this stage in the game. The man has been through more war then any one person should be subjected too, has beaten back the Sith and the Empire more times then anyone can count, reestablished the Jedi from extinction and yet he still doubts himself. His portrayal in Invincible was how I pictured Luke should be. Its easy to not like Luke when he's in the hands of morons.

Master Crimzon
Originally posted by Gideon
Yeah, I don't see how anyone can hate Luke Skywalker, since it's practically impossible to not root for him. He's so powerful and still manages to not turn into an utter Gary Stu (i.e. Revan, Thrawn, Corran Horn).

He's boring, he's self-righteous, and he seems more like a superhero than a Jedi. That's why I hate him.

And I don't know about Thrawn being a Gary Stu- he's practically the only major anatagonist in the Star Wars timeline who isn't force-sensitive. He needs to be immensely intelligent and cunning, because he has the powers of a regular Chiss officer, so he can't compete with any of the Jedi on a personal scale.

Gideon
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
He's boring, he's self-righteous, and he seems more like a superhero than a Jedi. That's why I hate him.

LOL @ 'boring and self righteous'. Skywalker's conflicts are the root of the entire saga: dealing with his father's legacy, his insecurities following his allegiance to the reborn Emperor, his devastation following the death of his one true love, his subsequent murder of a former lover, his attempted murder of his wayward nephew, his conflicts regarding how to deal with his wayward nephew, and of course, his distance from Ben. Skywalker is the most interesting character left.



Right, and Revan can't compete with Palpatine, Yoda, or Luke. Does that make him any less of a Gary-Stu? No. You give Timothy Zahn any room, he tries to embellish the importance of his characters. He tried to claim C'baoth is more powerful than the Emperor, that the mere return of Grand Admiral Thrawn = the greatest challenge the New Republic has ever faced. Hell, Mara Jade in The Hand of Thrawn duology places Thrawn on a higher level than the Emperor himself in terms of political manipulation. And the ability to pwn fleets based on artwork? Gay.

I love Thrawn and Zahn's talented in the same way Karpshyn is. They can write good stories, but they also are latent egomaniacs.

Master Crimzon
Originally posted by Gideon
LOL @ 'boring and self righteous'. Skywalker's conflicts are the root of the entire saga: dealing with his father's legacy, his insecurities following his allegiance to the reborn Emperor, his devastation following the death of his one true love, his subsequent murder of a former lover, his attempted murder of his wayward nephew, his conflicts regarding how to deal with his wayward nephew, and of course, his distance from Ben. Skywalker is the most interesting character left.

Very interesting outlook on the situation. But I never claimed he wasn't complex; sure, as far as complexiety goes, he's top tier, and surpassed only by Anakin Skywalker in the entire Star Wars saga. But that doesn't mean I need to like him more; his personality is rather dull, and, on occasions, he is extremely self-righteous, such as the example with Caedus: "LOLZ, I'm going to go ahead and let the ebil Sith Lord live because if I don't, Ben will turn to the dark side! It doesn't matter that the ebil Sith Lord will kill tons and tons of people, but Ben must neva go to the dark side!!!!". It doesn't make sense. Man, I could tolerate him if he had the same personality quirks such as Obi-Wan, back in the past.



Originally posted by Gideon
Right, and Revan can't compete with Palpatine, Yoda, or Luke. Does that make him any less of a Gary-Stu? No. You give Timothy Zahn any room, he tries to embellish the importance of his characters. He tried to claim C'baoth is more powerful than the Emperor, that the mere return of Grand Admiral Thrawn = the greatest challenge the New Republic has ever faced. Hell, Mara Jade in The Hand of Thrawn duology places Thrawn on a higher level than the Emperor himself in terms of political manipulation. And the ability to pwn fleets based on artwork? Gay.

I love Thrawn and Zahn's talented in the same way Karpshyn is. They can write good stories, but they also are latent egomaniacs.

An author's natural wish is to make their characters all-powerful and 'ultimate'. Thrawn isn't perfect- sure, as far as tactics go, he's the best in Star Wars history, but unlike Revan, he doesn't possess godly powers. He's prone to ridiculous claims, that much is true, but hey... at least it's not the sort of shit Traviss likes to write. In addition, his personality is interesting, and, ultimately, I believe he is a highly interesting villain. I daresay that he's one of the best- if not the best- villains to surface after the Emperor's death. He sure as hell would make a better anatagonist than Caedus would.

Gideon
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Very interesting outlook on the situation. But I never claimed he wasn't complex; sure, as far as complexiety goes, he's top tier, and surpassed only by Anakin Skywalker in the entire Star Wars saga. But that doesn't mean I need to like him more; his personality is rather dull, and, on occasions, he is extremely self-righteous, such as the example with Caedus: "LOLZ, I'm going to go ahead and let the ebil Sith Lord live because if I don't, Ben will turn to the dark side! It doesn't matter that the ebil Sith Lord will kill tons and tons of people, but Ben must neva go to the dark side!!!!". It doesn't make sense. Man, I could tolerate him if he had the same personality quirks such as Obi-Wan, back in the past.

...

Um... so, for the record, your problem is that Luke Skywalker is not emotionally and psychologically perfect and sometimes makes logically stupid decisions to prevent pain and suffering for those that he loves (acting in a manner that most loving people might)? But, weren't you just bitching earlier that he's too perfect and too powerful and whatnot?

You love your contradictions, don't you?



Err... I didn't deny that Thrawn was an interesting villain. His motivations, personality, and decisions make him absurdly unique. The fact that he's the greatest tactition ever doesn't bother me either. The fact that he forms immeasurably complex plans by looking at a ****ing cartoon painted by a three-year-old retard does bother me. The fact that Zahn becomes erect and allows his homoeroticism manifest in statements like "lulz Thrawn > palpy in political manipulation!" or "the rumor of teh Thrawn's return = greatest threat NR has ever faced!1!" or "I will only bring teh Thrawn back if his brilliance is teh only thing that can stop the next big threat" or "Thrawn used teh Palpy!" is all stupid.

For the record.

a.) The idea that Thrawn > Palpatine in any sort of manipulation was owned by the DESB; Thrawn was so much of a puppet that the Emperor practically had his hand up the Chiss's ass. He was used as a red herring to distract the Republic while he gathered his forces. It was also Palpatine who helped arrange for Thrawn's death. Though, admittedly, that was beyond petty.

b.) The NR's greatest threat = Yuuzhan Vong, Palpatine, Warlord Zsinj, and Thrawn himself. Not the "memory" of Thrawn.

c.) The idea that he'll only bring Thrawn back if Thrawn is "our last hope" speaks for Zahn's aggrandizement and narcissism.

d.) See 'a'.

e.) Outbound Flight was one of the shittiest books I've ever read.

Master Crimzon
Originally posted by Gideon
...

Um... so, for the record, your problem is that Luke Skywalker is not emotionally and psychologically perfect and sometimes makes logically stupid decisions to prevent pain and suffering for those that he loves (acting in a manner that most loving people might)? But, weren't you just bitching earlier that he's too perfect and too powerful and whatnot?

You love your contradictions, don't you?

Oh, I don't know. First of all, my claim is likely due to a regular whiny "Luke must die!!!" attitude (which, admittedly, I'm very much guilty of). I don't have a problem with him not being psychologically perfect. I think you misunderstood me there- I don't have a problem with his psychological problems. Quite the contrary- I love characters who are disturbed in one form or another, but it shouldn't go into the whole emo category. As for the whole 'save loved ones from going to the dark side' stuff, it, on occasions, borders on completely ridiculous. It can be interpreted as both imperfection and perfection. Let's take the Ben situation, for example. Luke could have killed Caedus and prevented a huge amount of deaths, but he chose to stop it and prevent Ben from falling into the dark side. I personally find it rather idiotic, but is it a representation of 'perfection' or 'imperfection'? There's more than one way to interpret this.



Originally posted by Gideon
Err... I didn't deny that Thrawn was an interesting villain. His motivations, personality, and decisions make him absurdly unique. The fact that he's the greatest tactition ever doesn't bother me either. The fact that he forms immeasurably complex plans by looking at a ****ing cartoon painted by a three-year-old retard does bother me. The fact that Zahn becomes erect and allows his homoeroticism manifest in statements like "lulz Thrawn > palpy in political manipulation!" or "the rumor of teh Thrawn's return = greatest threat NR has ever faced!1!" or "I will only bring teh Thrawn back if his brilliance is teh only thing that can stop the next big threat" or "Thrawn used teh Palpy!" is all stupid.

I agree that he tends to fellate Thrawn rather disturbingly on more than one occasion, but I forgive him, due to the way he writes the character- the way he behaves, the way he acts. The concept of Thrawn is also ingenius- finally, a truly formidable opponent who manages to threaten the Jedi without any sort of immense personal skill. As you put it, he's practically the only good "Lex Luthor"-styled villain in Star Wars history.

Originally posted by Gideon
For the record.

a.) The idea that Thrawn > Palpatine in any sort of manipulation was owned by the DESB; Thrawn was so much of a puppet that the Emperor practically had his hand up the Chiss's ass. He was used as a red herring to distract the Republic while he gathered his forces. It was also Palpatine who helped arrange for Thrawn's death. Though, admittedly, that was beyond petty.

Aside from the rather disturbing analogy of Palps sticking his hand up Thrawn's ass, I completely agree on this. And it's a very sad example of one of Sidious' flaws.

Originally posted by Gideon
b.) The NR's greatest threat = Yuuzhan Vong, Palpatine, Warlord Zsinj, and Thrawn himself. Not the "memory" of Thrawn.

Yup.

Originally posted by Gideon
c.) The idea that he'll only bring Thrawn back if Thrawn is "our last hope" speaks for Zahn's aggrandizement and narcissism.

Sorry, but how so?

Originally posted by Gideon
e.) Outbound Flight was one of the shittiest books I've ever read.

I beg to differ. It was, in my opinion, a rather awesome back, filled with some of the more interesting characters there is to offer.

The big EH
anakin solo
mara jade
jango fett

Allankles
Originally posted by Gideon

e.) Outbound Flight was one of the shittiest books I've ever read.

I agree. Biggest let down of the SW literature I've read. Outbound flight wasn't anywhere near as epic as advertised, in-universe or out.

master monkey
Originally posted by Icy Ninja
Chewbacca, killing off one of the originals is just a crime especially since anakin dies later on making chewie death completly pointless

when does chewie die???? is it in a game cause it isnt in the movies

master monkey
smile sad big grin embarrasment mad sick Happy Dance

lol i confused

Tangible God
Originally posted by master monkey
smile sad big grin embarrasment mad sick Happy Dance

lol i confused You have A LOT to learn. Firstly, excessive use of smilies tends to indicate mental immaturity...

Second, Chewbacca dies in a novel. Vector Prime. Crushed by a moon. Very sad... I chuckled though.

Obsidian Fury
Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
List people whom you think shouldn't have been killed off for whatever reasons yo want, wither it be just likig the character, or maybe feeling that they had potential to be a much better character, felt that the death was unnecessary etc.

Mara Jade for me, personally, because she was my favorite star wars chick by a mile and I don't see any reason to kill her off.

I personally think Order 66 should've had more survivors than it had hmm

Kit Fisto's death ticks me of as well.

Jbill311
Originally posted by Tangible God
You have A LOT to learn. Firstly, excessive use of smilies tends to indicate mental immaturity...

You're very dismissive of smilies.

Null ARC Avis
Order 66 did have a lot of survivors. They were hunted down and killed. The Dark Lord had 20 years and apparently a super secret teh [email protected] apprentice. I think thats enough.

Darth Subjekt
They better not give all the credit for those kills to him.

Lt. Valerian
Originally posted by Tangible God
You have A LOT to learn. Firstly, excessive use of smilies tends to indicate mental immaturity...

Second, Chewbacca dies in a novel. Vector Prime. Crushed by a moon. Very sad... I chuckled though.

C'mon, don't be too harsh with the boy. He's just starting the learning.

Bardock42
Darth Maul

Tangible God
Originally posted by Jbill311
You're very dismissive of smilies. I'd call the kettle black, but that'd just be silly.

Mizukage Yoda
Dooku should have been killed in a different fashion, I hated the way how he died in ROTS it was a waste of a great character

sweersa
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Dooku should have been killed in a different fashion, I hated the way how he died in ROTS it was a waste of a great character

All great things must come to an end.

Mizukage Yoda
Hopefully a great end lol not killed off in a red shirt fashion lol

Tangible God
I hated how little time Dooku spent on screen, I've got no problem with his actual death. I still say the PT should have been different, with the Clone Wars actually having it's own movie (and not that trash of a CGI movie, a good movie).

Captain REX
I am glad that Lucas did not examine the Clone Wars deeper in the films. They were an important part of galactic history, but it was not a pivotal personal event for the characters. The start and the end is what we needed to see and we did.

Even though the start was really not that great (AOTC).

Dooku's death was fitting.

I am annoyed with how quickly they are killing characters in Dark Times and in Rebellion. Crys Tanzer did not deserve the death she received, nor did Able the former clonetrooper.

Jaeh.is.Awesome
Chewbacca. i just plain didn't want him to die. he's an original, so like, yeah...

Thrawn i didn't want to die just because he was awesome as a villain, but it was inevitable.

Tangible God
Chewbacca dieing was probably the best thing that ever happened to him. After 20 years of being little more than a nanny/walking roll of Bounty, death by Moon was the best course his character could have taken.

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