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Is there anyone in dbz that was more powerful then brolly. The guy took on the entire team of dbz and didnt flinch from any of there blows. Before he even went super saiyan he didnt even feel none of goku attacks. The guy grabbed a small space pod, smushed it and through it out of orbit with ease.

He shot a blast as small as his hands and it destroyed a planet. Is there any beings on dbz that was as strong if not stronger then brolly, the solar system destroying character. The guy who punch through mountains and basically has limitless power. Never shown weakened or depowered.

I honestly think that he is a lot more powerful then cell but I want to see other people thoughts.

I got into a discusion in other forum, that what make this character overated is the galaxy explosion feat, but according to the timeline of his history, his apearence is with Goku into/after the Room of spirit and time in the first movie, with the diference that Gohan in that movie is not SSJ2, the reason, this movie was made when Toriyama still was doing the manga with the Cell history, so is Goku who take to beat Brolly with the power combine of the others.

The second movie has a ridiculous come back, we all se brolly being cut in 2 by Goku, but somehow he survived that plus the comet bigger than a planet, then it comes the point of discusion, many say he got a power up and he is more powerful than Gohan SSj2, but me and others think that he never got to fight with the most powerful version of SSJ 2 Gohan, the teenage Gohan is weaker because his lack of training in 7 years, stated by Vegeta and Goku. and then how is it that Brolly survived a comet plus Goku blast, then killed in the sun + 3 kamehame ha.

I allways put him as a superperfect Cell after regenaration, maybe sligthly stronger, but weaker than Goku and Vegeta SSJ2, but the galaxy destruction feat put above the others, Toei animation is fotk op.

and sure many will disagree with me.

Originally posted by Vvendeta
I got into a discusion in other forum, that what make this character overated is the galaxy explosion feat, but according to the timeline of his history, his apearence is with Goku into/after the Room of spirit and time in the first movie, with the diference that Gohan in that movie is not SSJ2, the reason, this movie was made when Toriyama still was doing the manga with the Cell history, so is Goku who take to beat Brolly with the power combine of the others.

The second movie has a ridiculous come back, we all se brolly being cut in 2 by Goku, but somehow he survived that plus the comet bigger than a planet, then it comes the point of discusion, many say he got a power up and he is more powerful than Gohan SSj2, but me and others think that he never got to fight with the most powerful version of SSJ 2 Gohan, the teenage Gohan is weaker because his lack of training in 7 years, stated by Vegeta and Goku. and then how is it that Brolly survived a comet plus Goku blast, then killed in the sun + 3 kamehame ha.

I allways put him as a superperfect Cell after regenaration, maybe sligthly stronger, but weaker than Goku and Vegeta SSJ2, but the galaxy destruction feat put above the others, Toei animation is fotk op.

and sure many will disagree with me.

Well I kinda agree with you and I would put him on that level of power also (cell that came back to earth after blowing up the ki planet). I also agree about gohun being much weaker then his younger self because at hi teenage years he never shown that he had the ability to turn super saiyan 2. He might was able to reach it once he started training with the z sword but before then, just no. Why do you think that goku kept telling gohun to use the power that he used to kill cell.

Now I dont agree with the comet being able to kill him or even do anything to him. Brolly even said this in the movie that the comet wouldnt do anything to him after he killed his father. The only thing that I agree that killed brolly would be the kameha wave because lets not forget, goku during the time that he was going to namek ship got off course which lead hiim to a sun. Goku was as close to the sun as you can get, you can actually see the ray touching him but it did next to nothing. I dont think that the sun would kill brolly either.

But overrall, good post and wasnt much in it to disagree with.

Gohan can go ssj2 as an adult. He does so for Kibito.

As for who is more powerful than Broli...SSJ3 Gokou and above. So that would be like all the Buu's, Mystic Gohan, any fusion, and well Gokou. That's just my opinion. I think Broli is stronger than ssj2 or at least on par but I can't see Buu Saga Vegeta beating him alone and he's ssj2.

Originally posted by Kento
Gohan can go ssj2 as an adult. He does so for Kibito.

As for who is more powerful than Broli...SSJ3 Gokou and above. So that would be like all the Buu's, Mystic Gohan, any fusion, and well Gokou. That's just my opinion. I think Broli is stronger than ssj2 or at least on par but I can't see Buu Saga Vegeta beating him alone and he's ssj2.

Your contradicting youself. Are you admitting that supersaiyan 2 can destroy galaxys and show me some proof that gohun could turn super saiyan 2 when he fought dabura.

Kento, I made this just for you.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t489334.html

Going by feats? No one.

Going by powerscaling? SSJ3 and above as was already said. He's easily SSJ2 level in power. SSJ3 stand to beat him, but not easy. Anyone that can curb SSJ3 though would beat Burori easily.

By feats there is not a single character in DBZ that can even rival Broly.

Now some might say,"ZOMG!!! But he lost to a SSJ2, and two SSJ's(Goku may of been SSJ, can't remember)!", but here is the thing, Broly is not a canon character, so he is omitted from being held back by the power hierarchy shown in canon.

Broly wiped out most of the South Galaxy, and as we know the four Galaxy Quadrants are actually composed of multiple galaxies, I think the total is 16 so that means the South is 4 galaxies strong. So Broly in fact annihilated multiple galaxies.

Now some may try to argue that he did over time(despite lack of any evidence). Well here is the thing, he did factually destroy it as an adult, so if Broly is only a planet destroyer then he would have to be many times FTL in speed to do this, cause as we know, Saiyan space pods are not that fast, neither are ships.

So he is either a multi-galaxy buster or is many times FTL, take your pic, both of those are feats much greater than any other Saiyan.

Oh, and he can survive in space. Can't forget that.

Now his defeat in the first movie...Well it was honestly bullshit. A bunch of half dead people are gonna put all their power in one half dead person, and all of the sudden he can one shot someone who was soloing them all? PIS at its finest.

In the second movie Broly mainly showed off his durability. It took the comination of 3 Kamehamehas, his own blast, and being sent through the entirety of the sun at FTL speeds to kill him, to explode his heart.

No other villain can claim to have taken half that amount of punishment.

In all the movies Broly shows exceptional physical strength and speed.

So yes, Broly is the most powerful DBZ character by feats.

Breaking through a dimension (different times) takes the power of a star. And that's Super Buu's and Gotenks' prime feats. A star surely don't have the power to bring down a galaxy. So there is none that could rival Broly in terms of feats.

Originally posted by Astner
Breaking through a dimension (different times) takes the power of a star. And that's Super Buu's and Gotenks' prime feats. A star surely don't have the power to bring down a galaxy. So there is none that could rival Broly in terms of feats. It takes the power of a star? Can I see your source? Not sayin you're wrong but I have never heard this before.

Originally posted by carver9
Your contradicting youself. Are you admitting that supersaiyan 2 can destroy galaxys and show me some proof that gohun could turn super saiyan 2 when he fought dabura. Broli never destroyed said galaxy. And Gohan went ssj2 against Kibito which Ill prove when I get off work. All I know about Colossus by the way is that he is low class 100.

Originally posted by Kento
Broli never destroyed said galaxy. Despite the fact we saw said galaxy being wiped out and King Kai said he did?

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Despite the fact we saw said galaxy being wiped out and King Kai said he did? Yet planets were still in said galaxy that was destroyed.

@Carver - I'm just going to put all the scans I said I would get right here along with proving Gohan has the ability to go ssj2 as an adult.

Gohan going ssj2 against Kibito...meaning he can when he fought Dabura.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y26/Kento300/DragonBallZbook37151.gif
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y26/Kento300/DragonBallZbook37152.gif
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y26/Kento300/DragonBallZbook37153.gif

Cell proving his ki is able to be felt.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y26/Kento300/301203.gif
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y26/Kento300/301208.gif
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y26/Kento300/301209.gif

18 saying 16 is another 'ETERNAL' energy type.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y26/Kento300/db30_012.gif

17 stating he'll never run out of energy while Piccolo is getting tired.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y26/Kento300/db31_109.gif

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
It takes the power of a star? Can I see your source? Not sayin you're wrong but I have never heard this before.
Yes it's theoretically possible with todays science to go back in time (and end up in an alternate universe). But as stated it would require the power of a star and is therefore practically impossible.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/4097258.stm

Originally posted by Kento
Yet planets were still in said galaxy that was destroyed.

@Carver - I'm just going to put all the scans I said I would get right here along with proving Gohan has the ability to go ssj2 as an adult.

Gohan going ssj2 against Kibito...meaning he can when he fought Dabura.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y26/Kento300/DragonBallZbook37151.gif
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y26/Kento300/DragonBallZbook37152.gif
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y26/Kento300/DragonBallZbook37153.gif

Cell proving his ki is able to be felt.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y26/Kento300/301203.gif
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y26/Kento300/301208.gif
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y26/Kento300/301209.gif

18 saying 16 is another 'ETERNAL' energy type.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y26/Kento300/db30_012.gif

17 stating he'll never run out of energy while Piccolo is getting tired.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y26/Kento300/db31_109.gif



You got me on everyone of the except this. Do you remember when goku and gohun was training and goku turned super saiyan, he asked gohun "do you want me to take it up another level" and he powered up against which he himself had electricity flowing around his body but he still wasnt super sayain 2. Gohun never went super saiyan 2.

Thanks for the other scan though, I guess I forgot. I guess cell hid his power level the entire time or the z fighters did.

Originally posted by Kento
Broli never destroyed said galaxy. And Gohan went ssj2 against Kibito which Ill prove when I get off work. All I know about Colossus by the way is that he is low class 100.

Its was said by the narrator and it was said by ki that he destroyed the galaxy. There you go again taking away from dbz.

Colossus is mid 100 class, which by the scan proves that he can lift up and move thousands of tons. The train feat alone proves that. He can most definetely hurt superman if superman just stands there and take a punch. Hell the guy was beating up and outmuscling ultimate thor and iron man and ultimate thor was picking up space ships throwing them but he admitted that colossus was stronger then him.

Gohan didn't go SSJ2 when he fought Dabura. He can go SSJ2 as an adult though.

In all the movies Broly shows exceptional physical strength and speed.

So yes, Broly is the most powerful DBZ character by feats.



I agree



I agree with this also since there was no reason for any of the z fighters villians to destroy the universe. Brolly was pure evil, noone in dbz was as evil as he was, not even buu. Kid buu intentions was to kill goku, nothing more, brolly knew of no great fighters that he can challenge his power against, thats why he destroyed said galaxy. In the second movie he would have destroyed goku universe if he never met up with goku, which made him like every other villian, just finding a challenge and not making it easy by destroying the planet.



Now I dont agree with this.



I agree with this also.



Now this is what I disagree with. I think that brolly could achieve faster then light speed in space since there is no gravity holding you back which basically should increase your speed in space (even though I think that dbz characters been going that fast for a while now anyways). Vulcan took hours to fly from genosha to the xmen mansion but when he was looking for the shiar empire which is located on the other side of the universe, it only took him a week to find it which is multiple times that of the speed of light. Brolly could have easily reach beyond light speed while flying through space.



He is both and not one of them is beyond any other saiyan reach. Goku can move the speed of light along with majority of the z fighters.



Yes he can but lets not forget, it was two minutes left before planet namek blew up and frieza said that he would be long gone by the time planet namek exploded.



I agree, unless somehow goku created a spirit bomb at tremendous speed which I still dont think should hurt brolly. Brolly durability was outstanding and he was growing in power by the second.



I agree because there was next to nothing that could stop him so yeah it would take all of that. Im surprised that worked.



Cell took more, lets not forget that cell fought an ascended trunks and vegeta and krillin at the same time and stood there while they were punching him and didnt flinch. Vegeta then shot him with a blast that his body split in half and krillin hit him in the neck with a destructoe disk that did nothing. I cant see brolly taking that assault either.



What character in dbz dont use super speed, oh your taking about sonic booms, well I guess since flash was going mach9 he should have created a sonic boom, maybe you can show me a boom in this scan.

http://img244.imageshack.us/my.php?image=amazo3ll5.jpg

because I dont see one, so I guess mach 9 was a lie.

Originally posted by carver9
You got me on everyone of the except this. Do you remember when goku and gohun was training and goku turned super saiyan, he asked gohun "do you want me to take it up another level" and he powered up against which he himself had electricity flowing around his body but he still wasnt super sayain 2. Gohun never went super saiyan 2.

Thanks for the other scan though, I guess I forgot. I guess cell hid his power level the entire time or the z fighters did. I never said Gohan went SSJ2 against Dabura..I don't even really remember that fight. I just said Gohan had the power to go SSJ2 during the time he fought Dabura because he did it only a little bit before against Kibito. And what time are you talking about? Because USSJ never had the electricity around it, and even if it did Gohan doesn't know that form, and still even if Gohan did know that form he didn't get buff like that form uses.

Originally posted by carver9
Its was said by the narrator and it was said by ki that he destroyed the galaxy. There you go again taking away from dbz.

Colossus is mid 100 class, which by the scan proves that he can lift up and move thousands of tons. The train feat alone proves that. He can most definetely hurt superman if superman just stands there and take a punch. Hell the guy was beating up and outmuscling ultimate thor and iron man and ultimate thor was picking up space ships throwing them but he admitted that colossus was stronger then him. And yet planets and stars still existed in the galaxy. It's kind of a contradiction for him to have destroyed a whole galaxy yet Gokou goes to said galaxy and stands on a planet he was at not to long ago.

Ultimate Colossus is completely different than 616 Colossus...and from all I hear Ultimate Thor is weaker than 616 Thor anyway. 616 Colossus is low class 100. I don't read much marvel why would I know anything about the Ultimate Universe? So why make a thread that involved a Colossus I don't know about. Even if he's in the mid he's still not going to be hurting anybody on that list except maybe Hulk and Gladiator depending on how calm Hulk is and how confident Gladiator is..and if he is mid I'd put his strength close to Gokou's yet still below if it's only in the few thousand ton range while 616 is extremely far below.

Originally posted by carver9

I agree

I agree with this also since there was no reason for any of the z fighters villians to destroy the universe. Brolly was pure evil, noone in dbz was as evil as he was, not even buu. Kid buu intentions was to kill goku, nothing more, brolly knew of no great fighters that he can challenge his power against, thats why he destroyed said galaxy. In the second movie he would have destroyed goku universe if he never met up with goku, which made him like every other villian, just finding a challenge and not making it easy by destroying the planet.

Now I dont agree with this.

I agree with this also.

Now this is what I disagree with. I think that brolly could achieve faster then light speed in space since there is no gravity holding you back which basically should increase your speed in space (even though I think that dbz characters been going that fast for a while now anyways). Vulcan took hours to fly from genosha to the xmen mansion but when he was looking for the shiar empire which is located on the other side of the universe, it only took him a week to find it which is multiple times that of the speed of light. Brolly could have easily reach beyond light speed while flying through space.

He is both and not one of them is beyond any other saiyan reach. Goku can move the speed of light along with majority of the z fighters.

Yes he can but lets not forget, it was two minutes left before planet namek blew up and frieza said that he would be long gone by the time planet namek exploded.

I agree, unless somehow goku created a spirit bomb at tremendous speed which I still dont think should hurt brolly. Brolly durability was outstanding and he was growing in power by the second.

I agree because there was next to nothing that could stop him so yeah it would take all of that. Im surprised that worked.

Cell took more, lets not forget that cell fought an ascended trunks and vegeta and krillin at the same time and stood there while they were punching him and didnt flinch. Vegeta then shot him with a blast that his body split in half and krillin hit him in the neck with a destructoe disk that did nothing. I cant see brolly taking that assault either.

What character in dbz dont use super speed, oh your taking about sonic booms, well I guess since flash was going mach9 he should have created a sonic boom, maybe you can show me a boom in this scan.

http://img244.imageshack.us/my.php?image=amazo3ll5.jpg

because I dont see one, so I guess mach 9 was a lie.

Um...how can something pure evil be less evil than something that was just crazy and evil? Broli may have been evil but to say he was more evil than Buu is just wrong. Kid Buu was nothing but pure evil with no kind of good in him. Super Buu also. He was made from Buu expelling evil out of him. The only good inside Super Buu were the people he absorbed while Kid Buu didn't have that after he spit out Fat Buu. Kid Buu's intention was to just destroy and have fun...Not to kill Gokou specifically.

Why does everybody say he couldn't have just used a saiyan space pod to get from place? They are ftl....Why does Broli suddenly need ftl speed?

Yea...you still have the notion DBZ characters are light speed. They haven't ever moved light speed. Heck even in the Buu Saga it takes them a while to fly places on Earth that would be instant at light speed.

Freeza survivng in space means what when Broli is mentioned? Because it's kinda proven any saiyan minus Broli is unable to survive in space.

Broli took a point blank full power Kamehameha and just walked through it. Cell had the top of his body blown off by Vegeta's Final Flash who was a whole lot weaker than him. Broli also took every blow without any troube it, and every blast as if it was nothing. I think Broli has that one non-canon Cell scene beat quite good with tanking a Kamehameha.

You do know that the speed force sort of nulls any sonic booms from happening? Using Flash is a bad example....And Superman has said he has learned to supress sonic booms while on Earth so he's a bad example also.

Originally posted by carver9
Now I dont agree with this.



Now this is what I disagree with. I think that brolly could achieve faster then light speed in space since there is no gravity holding you back which basically should increase your speed in space (even though I think that dbz characters been going that fast for a while now anyways). Vulcan took hours to fly from genosha to the xmen mansion but when he was looking for the shiar empire which is located on the other side of the universe, it only took him a week to find it which is multiple times that of the speed of light. Brolly could have easily reach beyond light speed while flying through space.



He is both and not one of them is beyond any other saiyan reach. Goku can move the speed of light along with majority of the z fighters.



Yes he can but lets not forget, it was two minutes left before planet namek blew up and frieza said that he would be long gone by the time planet namek exploded.



I agree, unless somehow goku created a spirit bomb at tremendous speed which I still dont think should hurt brolly. Brolly durability was outstanding and he was growing in power by the second.



Cell took more, lets not forget that cell fought an ascended trunks and vegeta and krillin at the same time and stood there while they were punching him and didnt flinch. Vegeta then shot him with a blast that his body split in half and krillin hit him in the neck with a destructoe disk that did nothing. I cant see brolly taking that assault either.



What character in dbz dont use super speed, oh your taking about sonic booms, well I guess since flash was going mach9 he should have created a sonic boom, maybe you can show me a boom in this scan.

http://img244.imageshack.us/my.php?image=amazo3ll5.jpg

because I dont see one, so I guess mach 9 was a lie. 1. Which is why I said there is no evidence he didn't.

2. Hmmm that is true. I had not considered that. Though I won't claim Broly is FTL unless I can get some actual concrete evidence he is.

3. No one in DBZ can claim to have destroyed a galaxy in DBZ, let alone a whole galaxy quadrant. As for FTL, I personally don't believe anyone in canon is, though I would like to see that lightning scene you were talking about from Dragonball.

4. Well the Namek explosion was not really all that big to tell the truth, so yeah I would imagine Frieza in two minutes could escape the blast in time since he can breathe in space.

5. Well it can be argued being pure evil would hurt Broly even more when hit by a Spirit Bomb.

6. And Broly took a point blank Kamehameha and didn't flinch, he took all his opponent's attacks without flinching, and absolutely destroyed Vegeta much worse than Cell did. Well Broly doesn't have regeneration like Cell does, though the Final Flash wouldn't have blown him in half. The Destructo Disc from Krillin wouldn't do shit either.

7. Oh no I am referring to the scene where they are all punching at Broly who while on top of a pole on a building was just leaning left and right and avoiding there punches.

There wasnt a known enemy that was more ruthless then brolly and thats a fact.



Brolly is more ruthless, buu followed a leader brolly had to be put under a trans to even listen to his father and spare his life. Brolly was much more ruthless and thats plane and simple.



He must had some kid, he spared babidi father bibidi.



and still did nothing to make me think that he was close to being more evil then brolly.



Which weakened him and gave him a concious.



Buu wanted to fight and along with destroying unless you can explain to me why he left so soon when vegeta and goku powered up to get his attention. If kid buu wanted nothing but destruction he would have blown up the grand ki planet and didnt care if he felt goku and vegeta power. He felt a challenge in goku and he wanted to test his might to see if it was true.



What are you talking about?



He dont need it but since you think that superman is faster then light, do me a favor and put up a scan of superman or wonder woman fighting faster or as fast as the speed of light and provide some proof that its over the speed of sound. Thats another debate that is going on in the comic vs forum. People are waiting on scans proving that superman has blitzed someone at the speed of light. Maybe you can help me so that I can post that scan proving that he can.



They are well above light speed since tien as a teenager was running 1000 mps and wasnt maxed out and he wasnt even trying. Or how about the fact that popo taught goku how to move faster then lightning when he had goku get the crown that was in another dimension. All of this was as a child. Or I could just use the notion that yamch admitting of goku moving the speed of light and this was during the time goku had weighted clothing on and was taking them off.



I agree with this, they cant survive in space but I do know one thing frieza was going to be long gone from the planet in less then two minutes which is amazing speed but again I dont count space flight since there is no gravity to weigh you down.




From a goku thats not even close to being as strong as the trunks or vegeta that fought cell.



By a much weaker vegeta then the one that fought cell.



Cell did the same thing by much stronger opponents then the one that brolly fought.



Excuses like usually, flash has created a sonic boom more then once but let me help you a little more. Here is superman in a race against the flashes, why didnt superman create a sonic boom. Lets see what excuse you come up with now because in order to keep up with wally he had to be going faster then sound. Show me a scan saying that tapping in the speed force stops sonic booms. I also cant believe that you said superman know how to supress his sonic booms. Please show me where you got that from being that require magic to do that and from my knowledge superman isnt a magical being. LOL at that comment you made. So I have a couple of scans to wait for. Show me superman fighting at light speed with it SAYING that he is fighting that fast and show me superman taking away sonic booms (LOL).

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff102/Wally_Respect2/kadabracwal.jpg
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff102/Wally_Respect2/kadabracwal2.jpg
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff102/Wally_Respect2/kadabracwal3.jpg

LOL, gotcha



I'll find that scan showing goku as a child being faster then lightning.



Cell holds just as much power as brolly with buu being his superior. They can mimic his blast and who ever said that was the limit of brollys power.



It was a big blast and it would still is impressive for frieza to escape the blast in two minutes without even feeling the shock waves and how many times in dbz have you seen a z character standing on the ground and instantly they are cloud height. I have seen that too many times.



I agree since he is as evil as you can get.



And he took all of this from much weaker characters then the ones that cell fought. Im pretty sure that the black hair goku that fought frieza can shrug off attacks coming from both nappa and vegeta during the cell saga.



I agree, that was a nice scene of brolly but that still dont change the fact that cell could be faster then him since brolly was fighting much weaker characters. He is fast as hell, extremely fast but I just think that perfect cell was much faster and why was brolly dodging there attacks when he didnt have too. They werent a threat to him. I guess he was showing off.

And kento, is that all you wanted was a mere sonic boom. Tien created one of them as a child in regular dragonball.

http://img228.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img0008kq7.jpg

Originally posted by carver9
There wasnt a known enemy that was more ruthless then brolly and thats a fact.

Brolly is more ruthless, buu followed a leader brolly had to be put under a trans to even listen to his father and spare his life. Brolly was much more ruthless and thats plane and simple.

He must had some kid, he spared babidi father bibidi.

and still did nothing to make me think that he was close to being more evil then brolly.

Which weakened him and gave him a concious.

Buu wanted to fight and along with destroying unless you can explain to me why he left so soon when vegeta and goku powered up to get his attention. If kid buu wanted nothing but destruction he would have blown up the grand ki planet and didnt care if he felt goku and vegeta power. He felt a challenge in goku and he wanted to test his might to see if it was true.

What are you talking about?

He dont need it but since you think that superman is faster then light, do me a favor and put up a scan of superman or wonder woman fighting faster or as fast as the speed of light and provide some proof that its over the speed of sound. Thats another debate that is going on in the comic vs forum. People are waiting on scans proving that superman has blitzed someone at the speed of light. Maybe you can help me so that I can post that scan proving that he can.

They are well above light speed since tien as a teenager was running 1000 mps and wasnt maxed out and he wasnt even trying. Or how about the fact that popo taught goku how to move faster then lightning when he had goku get the crown that was in another dimension. All of this was as a child. Or I could just use the notion that yamch admitting of goku moving the speed of light and this was during the time goku had weighted clothing on and was taking them off.

I agree with this, they cant survive in space but I do know one thing frieza was going to be long gone from the planet in less then two minutes which is amazing speed but again I dont count space flight since there is no gravity to weigh you down.

From a goku thats not even close to being as strong as the trunks or vegeta that fought cell.

By a much weaker vegeta then the one that fought cell.

Cell did the same thing by much stronger opponents then the one that brolly fought.

Excuses like usually, flash has created a sonic boom more then once but let me help you a little more. Here is superman in a race against the flashes, why didnt superman create a sonic boom. Lets see what excuse you come up with now because in order to keep up with wally he had to be going faster then sound. Show me a scan saying that tapping in the speed force stops sonic booms. I also cant believe that you said superman know how to supress his sonic booms. Please show me where you got that from being that require magic to do that and from my knowledge superman isnt a magical being. LOL at that comment you made. So I have a couple of scans to wait for. Show me superman fighting at light speed with it SAYING that he is fighting that fast and show me superman taking away sonic booms (LOL).

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff102/Wally_Respect2/kadabracwal.jpg
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff102/Wally_Respect2/kadabracwal2.jpg
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff102/Wally_Respect2/kadabracwal3.jpg Super Buu killed every remaining person on Earth just to fight a strong opponent. Yea how is Broli more ruthless than a guy who will kill anybody just to fight somebody strong?

Kid Buu became Fat Buu while Bibidi was still around..Fat Buu wasn't pure evil.

I said he wanted to have fun..He didn't exactly try in his fight against Gokou because he was having fun fighting. And when Kid Buu spit out Fat Buu he would have killed Satan had Fat Buu not interfered. What did Broli do that was so evil? He killed his father...who was controlling him anyway and it's not like he was a caring father. He also destroyed a empty planet that the little aliens use to call home...It's not like he killed them. Broli toyed with the Z fighters just like Buu did except Buu killed more people and did it all in fun.

I was talking about earlier when Jaxx (I think) said saiyan space pods weren't fast enough to get around the galaxy. Nobody knows how big the galaxy is in Z and the saiyan space pods are a lot faster than light.

Who said anything about fighting? The Z fighters sure can't fly at light speed....Superman on that other hand has proven he can fly..and he's also bullrushed people also at light speed.

When did Yamcha ever say Gokou moved at light speed? And one needs to be light speed to dodge lightning? And since you like to take character statements as fact then Kakashi must be ftl also since he cut a lightning bolt in half and has just gotten faster. And a lot of the Naruto cast as well.

Freeza had a spaceship....A ftl spaceship. He wasn't going to fly away on his own.

Except to fit it in to any part of Z...they would be as strong as they were when the Cell games started because Trunks has long hair, and putting it into a different universe you can't prove who was stronger or not. And even still Vegeta was extremely weaker than Perfect Cell but Z fighters can charge up attacks that are higher than what their actual power level is (as shown by Piccolo in the Radditz fight) and Vegeta was able to hurt Cell, and Broli was able to walk through a charged up Kamehameha like it was nothing. Something I don't remember anybody in DBZ doing. They may not have been killed but it has hurt whoever it hits besides Broli.

Superman said it when he intentionally creates a sonic boom as he flies through a ship about how he learned to supress sonic booms in Earth's atmosphere as he grew older. And when has Flash ever created a sonic boom? Even in the fight against Amazo you posted that took like a second he didn't even create any. I can't remember one comic I read where Wally or Bart ever have either. Not that I've read much Impulse or Flash comics but in JLA and Young Justice they haven't.

Originally posted by carver9
And kento, is that all you wanted was a mere sonic boom. Tien created one of them as a child in regular dragonball.

http://img228.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img0008kq7.jpg When did I ask for a sonic boom..And that's not a sonic boom or Yamcha would have made one also.

Brolly was much more ruthless, anyone can tell you that.



I know that fat buu wasnt pure evil but kid buu wasnt either until he spat fat buu out.



He tried against goku, if anyone wasnt trying it was goku since he could have killed buu in the beginning.



Everything about brolly was pure evil. Destroying a galaxy full of innocent people is evil enough and then destroying another planet while laughing shows a sign of evil.



If you seen the show you would have seen that he killed some of them before he went super saiyan and laughed.



Brolli never toyed with the z fighters. Hell he was stepping on goku destroying the planet. Why would you play with someone while doing city destroying steps. Why would you punch someone from one end of the mountain to the other if you were playing with them (by the way doomsday slammed superman head into a moutain and koed him but goku got rammed into a mountain and then got beaten from one end of the moutain to the other and was still intact.).



My bad about the misunderstanding.



Your opinion since goku wanted pan to fly around the world and she did it in two minutes and goku said that was too slow and this was when she was a baby. So goku himself was teaching her how to go faster then light. As a baby (she was 4) she was already going faster then sound, a lot faster then sound.



Superman hasnt proven sh**. He has some of the most amazing space flight that I have seen but can you show me this scan of superman bullrushing someone at light speed so that I can post it in the comic vs forum because everyone is looking for it. Superman has not as of yet fought at light speed and he only have one instance of him even fighting at the speed of sound (creating sonic booms with punches). In order for something to be concrete it has to happen more then once so can you show me superman fighting again at those levels or even faster.



I already told you when, when goku decided to stop playing around with tien and was about to take off his weighted cloths.



No they dont but its pretty da** close and its amazing that goku as a child was moving close to that speed anyway.



Was this a lightning bolt conjured by someone or is this regular lightning coming from the sky. By the way, it was already stated on naruto that there are characters that can move as fast as light. Are you even looking at shapuden.



LOL, this is ridiculous. It was so da** clear that frieza was going to fly away, he even said that he can breath in space. Why would he say that if he wasnt going to fly away himself. Kento youre being ridiculous and just throwing what was said out of the window.



Brolli was fighting much weaker incarnations of the characters.



If thats the case then why did superman say that he have to slow down when passing cities, etc... because a sonic boom could hurt them. If he could surpress his sonic boom then there was no need for that statement.



Plenty of times.



So why didnt amazo create sonic booms, he dont have control of the speed force like wally does. Im still waiting on that scan where superman say that he can supress his sonic booms and Im waiting on the faster then light bull rush and Im also waiting on the scan saying that since flash has the speed force it stops him from creating sonic booms. Kento, I can tell that youre making stuff up while your posting and its funny as hell.



Thats a sonic boom unless you can tell me what it was. When he ran off it said BOOM and tien was faster then yamcha. Again, can you please stop taking away from feats. Its so da** clear that that was a sonic boom.

Originally posted by carver9
LOL, gotcha



I'll find that scan showing goku as a child being faster then lightning.



Cell holds just as much power as brolly with buu being his superior. They can mimic his blast and who ever said that was the limit of brollys power.



It was a big blast and it would still is impressive for frieza to escape the blast in two minutes without even feeling the shock waves and how many times in dbz have you seen a z character standing on the ground and instantly they are cloud height. I have seen that too many times.



I agree since he is as evil as you can get.



And he took all of this from much weaker characters then the ones that cell fought. Im pretty sure that the black hair goku that fought frieza can shrug off attacks coming from both nappa and vegeta during the cell saga.



I agree, that was a nice scene of brolly but that still dont change the fact that cell could be faster then him since brolly was fighting much weaker characters. He is fast as hell, extremely fast but I just think that perfect cell was much faster and why was brolly dodging there attacks when he didnt have too. They werent a threat to him. I guess he was showing off. 1. Kay.

2. That is simply not true. There isn't a feat they have which even comes close to suggesting this. Broly is not a canon character like they are, he is not present in the canon DBZ bad guy hierarchy which states Frieza<Cell<Buu. They have never shown to be able to make a blast that can destroy most of a galaxy quadrant.

3. I'm not arguing this. I know he could easily escape it in two minutes.

4. There is really no proof they are weaker than the ones Cell fought in all honesty. And none of them could even come close to harming him so it doesn't matter. His feats cement him as much stronger than Cell.

5. Yeah he was showing how much stronger he is.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
1. Kay.

2. That is simply not true. There isn't a feat they have which even comes close to suggesting this. Broly is not a canon character like they are, he is not present in the canon DBZ bad guy hierarchy which states Frieza<Cell<Buu. They have never shown to be able to make a blast that can destroy most of a galaxy quadrant.

3. I'm not arguing this. I know he could easily escape it in two minutes.

4. There is really no proof they are weaker than the ones Cell fought in all honesty. And none of them could even come close to harming him so it doesn't matter. His feats cement him as much stronger than Cell.

5. Yeah he was showing how much stronger he is.

Good post. I have nothing on here that I can argue against. You got me.

The sad thing kento is just you really dont truly understand how fast dragonball is. They basically dodge multiples of blasts coming at them at tremendous speeds. Blast that has made it to the sun in minutes and you have dbz characters dodging them like they're nothing. Then you have dbz characters dodging 100s of punches coming at them in seconds like its nothing. Hell raditz alone dodge a blast from picollo that made it to the moon instantly. Goku had to hold him so that the blast could even touch him. Goku was moving so fast that multiples of blasts was going through his body.

Where in the manga did it state Brolly or any Supersaiyan 2 can just blow up a galaxy? Brolly went from planet to planet and blew it up. Alot of characters on DBZ could do that.

Originally posted by big juggy man
Where in the manga did it state Brolly or any Supersaiyan 2 can just blow up a galaxy? Brolly went from planet to planet and blew it up. Alot of characters on DBZ could do that. Thing is, you can't prove it.

And the only character who went from planet to planet to blow it up was Kid Buu, who is immortal and has infinite time to accomplish such a feat.

Originally posted by carver9
Brolly was much more ruthless, anyone can tell you that.

I know that fat buu wasnt pure evil but kid buu wasnt either until he spat fat buu out.

He tried against goku, if anyone wasnt trying it was goku since he could have killed buu in the beginning.

Everything about brolly was pure evil. Destroying a galaxy full of innocent people is evil enough and then destroying another planet while laughing shows a sign of evil.

If you seen the show you would have seen that he killed some of them before he went super saiyan and laughed.

Brolli never toyed with the z fighters. Hell he was stepping on goku destroying the planet. Why would you play with someone while doing city destroying steps. Why would you punch someone from one end of the mountain to the other if you were playing with them (by the way doomsday slammed superman head into a moutain and koed him but goku got rammed into a mountain and then got beaten from one end of the moutain to the other and was still intact.).

My bad about the misunderstanding.

Your opinion since goku wanted pan to fly around the world and she did it in two minutes and goku said that was too slow and this was when she was a baby. So goku himself was teaching her how to go faster then light. As a baby (she was 4) she was already going faster then sound, a lot faster then sound.

Superman hasnt proven sh**. He has some of the most amazing space flight that I have seen but can you show me this scan of superman bullrushing someone at light speed so that I can post it in the comic vs forum because everyone is looking for it. Superman has not as of yet fought at light speed and he only have one instance of him even fighting at the speed of sound (creating sonic booms with punches). In order for something to be concrete it has to happen more then once so can you show me superman fighting again at those levels or even faster.

I already told you when, when goku decided to stop playing around with tien and was about to take off his weighted cloths.

No they dont but its pretty da** close and its amazing that goku as a child was moving close to that speed anyway.

Was this a lightning bolt conjured by someone or is this regular lightning coming from the sky. By the way, it was already stated on naruto that there are characters that can move as fast as light. Are you even looking at shapuden.

LOL, this is ridiculous. It was so da** clear that frieza was going to fly away, he even said that he can breath in space. Why would he say that if he wasnt going to fly away himself. Kento youre being ridiculous and just throwing what was said out of the window.

Brolli was fighting much weaker incarnations of the characters.

If thats the case then why did superman say that he have to slow down when passing cities, etc... because a sonic boom could hurt them. If he could surpress his sonic boom then there was no need for that statement.

Plenty of times.

So why didnt amazo create sonic booms, he dont have control of the speed force like wally does. Im still waiting on that scan where superman say that he can supress his sonic booms and Im waiting on the faster then light bull rush and Im also waiting on the scan saying that since flash has the speed force it stops him from creating sonic booms. Kento, I can tell that youre making stuff up while your posting and its funny as hell.

Thats a sonic boom unless you can tell me what it was. When he ran off it said BOOM and tien was faster then yamcha. Again, can you please stop taking away from feats. Its so da** clear that that was a sonic boom. There is nothing Broli has done that Buu hasn't done to make Broli more ruthless and evil. Buu killed all of Earth while laughing. Buu destroyed planets while laughing.

Kid Buu didn't try..he let Vegeta and Gokou talk while mocking them. Gokou even says Kid Buu is playing with him. Gokou also admits he had been trying to kill Kid Buu since the beginning.

Broli did nothing but toy with the Z fighters...He could have easily just killed them all but didn't. And Gokou surviving like he did against Broli at the end was PIS. He was taken out easily in their first clash yet he's suddenly able to stand up to the attacks while near death?

When did I ever say they weren't faster than sound? They still haven't shown FTL speeds while at all. And two minutes being to slow doesn't mean he wants her to fly around the planet seven times in like a second...Or that Gokou can either. The have the potential to probably reach and exceed light speed but they never did before the series ended.

Superman has shown faster flight on Earth than anybody in DBZ...Space he's blown anything they've done out of the water. When did Superman create sonic booms with his punches by punching that fast? Also Superman easily catches bullets from multiple directions and your really going to say he doesn't have the speed to fight faster than sound at the very least? Yet aren't you one of the people who uses Roshi catching bullets, and Gokou blocking bullets to prove they are faster than sound? And you keep bringing up fighting..All I said was moving. Also against Amazo if I remember right...he bullrushes at light speed...It really isn't hard for Superman to ram into somebody at light speed when he can go faster.

Um Tobi is stated to teleport at light speed....Nobody else. And Kakashi's chidori got it's nickname lightning blade because he cut a lightning bolt in half. The Naruto characters are much slower than light speed, and slower than DB characters. I doubt the Naruto characters are much faster than sound if they are even that. It took them three days to get to the Sand Country at the start of shippuden. Yea not light speed. Sasuke's move Kirin was as fast as lightning and Itachi was able to summon Susanno before it hit..and he's still not anywhere close to light.

And why would Freeza fly off the planet when he has a ship to fly away that moves ftl when he doesn't?

Because you have so much proof they are weaker against Broli than when they fought Cell?

And there was no need for the statement that he can supress sonic booms if he can't. Which is still all pointless arguement when he's gone over sound and never created sonic booms plenty of times. Going to a different country, getting a bottle of wine or whatever he got, and getting back before Lois can even finish a sentence is going faster than sound...Sonic Boom should have destroyed his house and hurt her...nothing. He flew ftl to metropolis from another solar system...no sonic booms destroying anything, running faster than sound racing flash no sonic booms....Or ya know you could just go with the fact that the DC universe doesn't have all the laws of physics because...it's a comic.

Then it shouldn't be hard to find Flash creating a sonic boom after he got the speed force, and without him wanting it to happen.....

Amazo had Flash's power...his powers come from the speed force...

Here's Superman saying before he learned to supress sonic booms
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Superman/supermansupresssonicbooms.jpg

less than 3/10ths of a second after Batman sounds alarm Superman has already attacked, is said to be nearly as fast as Flash..by Flash himself who fights Amazo in a second.
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/SupermanBlitz.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/SupermanBlitz1.jpg

I'll try to find the other scan of Superman saying he can supress sonic booms when he saves Lois and Jimmy...and I'll try to find out where I seen the speed force protects Flash from...well any effects of speed.

Because it couldn't be the fact he just pushed off concrete really hard...and Yamcha seemed to be moving faster in that picture. The same thing behind Tien is behind Yamcha just farther back and all that says is dash.

Originally posted by carver9
The sad thing kento is just you really dont truly understand how fast dragonball is. They basically dodge multiples of blasts coming at them at tremendous speeds. Blast that has made it to the sun in minutes and you have dbz characters dodging them like they're nothing. Then you have dbz characters dodging 100s of punches coming at them in seconds like its nothing. Hell raditz alone dodge a blast from picollo that made it to the moon instantly. Goku had to hold him so that the blast could even touch him. Goku was moving so fast that multiples of blasts was going through his body. To bad said blasts are seen by normal people quite easily...So they aren't ftl and you have like two instances where they can even been said to be compared to like 291 episodes where they aren't. And really...it takes them like 5 minutes to get from Kami's lookout to Cell's arena, takes Gotenks a minute to get to Buu's house, Gokou was unable to just easily save his sons and Trunks who weren't that far away from a blast that wasn't moving anywhere close to light speed. There hasn't been one instance of them actually moving faster than light. Faster than sound yes....a lot faster than sound....but not light.

Originally posted by big juggy man
Where in the manga did it state Brolly or any Supersaiyan 2 can just blow up a galaxy? Brolly went from planet to planet and blew it up. Alot of characters on DBZ could do that.

Ummm..... Burori isn't a manga character... so anyone would be hardpressed to find where it was stated he blew up a galaxy.

Plenty of times when you said that they dont create sonic booms. Thats the hole point of me putting up the tien scan WHICH DID CREATE A SONIC BOOM.



Goku slapping multiples of frieza finger blast out the air shows much more then light speed. Can superman do the same thing if someone was shooting lasers at him. If you say yes I know that you have a scan to prove this.



If pan can fly around the world in two minutes and back to her destination then she should be able to pull off that feat of superman getting that wine easily.



They been had the potential to go light speed.



Not light speed, the only thing I remember of superman been stated attempting light speed is when a god was talking to him but even then its questionable because he never made it known that superman was going that fast.



In space rogue has blown what dragonball has done out of the water but dragonball characters would still whip that ass. She flew from the moon to the xmen mansion in less then a second after being punched by binary.



Forgot the name of the comic but thats the best combat feat that he ever had. Its on the goku vs superman thread.



I never said that sound is his max flight speed but his combat speed aint shit. Again flight dont equal combat speed. Two different things. Northstar has the ability to fly the speed of light but his combat speed aint shit, quicksilver has thrashed him before. Superboy prime has the ability to fly light speed but got curbed stomped by flash when they encountered. He had to retreat, he ran from the flash. Do you want to know why, combat speed dont equal flight speed. Wonderwoman has flown around the world keeping up with superman but got her ass handed to her by both flash and zoom. She even say that shes fast but she dont have the combat speed to keep up with flash and got whipped also because again flight speed dont equal combat speed. Two different things.

So yes I agree, superman can catch bullets just like goku as a child use to catch bullets. Now goku has stepped it up a notch and is catching blast that make it to the moon in less then a second.Now goku is moving so fast that blasts are going through his body but it looks like he is just standing in one spot. Now goku is moving so fast that when he punch you he is instantly behind your back punching you again. Now goku is so fast that he fly towards you and punch you but its a after image punching at you and he come back in the place of the after image punching you. Goku is on a entire different level then superman. Superman is great for fighting other dc characters but would get overwhelmed fighting black hair goku.



I never said that superman wasnt faster then sound. I truly think that he is but that doesnt mean that he has combat speed that puts him in that category, unless you can show me some besides the one where hes punching at the speed of sound.



I understand that but I want to see superman creating multiples of after images while fighting. The only one that you might be able to put up is the one where superman is fighting imperex. For a guy that can fight so fast I know that you have another instance of him making MULTIPLES of after images. I can find one for flash.



Who said that superman was going even close to the speed of light when he rammed amazo. Superman could have already been there or flash could have made it down there around about the same time superman made it. Hell flash was only going mach 9 and was able to hit amazo and almost kill him. Not impressed. You see this blast that Superman was hit by, goku would have easily dodge it without a problem and please dont say that amazo was moving at incredible speed because the others seen him and please dont say that superman was weakened from his 1st encounter when zitana cured him of his red sun poison. That blast wouldnt have touched goku and goku would have been all over amazo.

http://img244.imageshack.us/my.php?image=amazo9tp6.jpg



The question is why would frieza bring up him being able to breath outside of space if he wasnt planning on flying himself? Its common sense man. Frieza fly and fight faster then light.



You still havent prove that he can surpress sonic booms. He said that he was learning how to do it, not that he can do it.



Which is easy for a baby pan to do since she flew around the world in two minutes.



I dont think that you can create sonic booms in space.



I know superman can go faster then sound but dont say that goku cant because you dont see a sonic boom. For everytime that you name for goku a sonic boom not being created, I can name one for superman.



We're both waiting for scans because I want to see superman fighting at light speed and it actually saying that he is fighting that fast.



So now amazo can controll the speed force. So Im guessing that he has flashes other abilities that the speed force grant him like giving someone speed and taking away a persons speed. Do you have any kind of way of proving this or are you making up stuff again.



Ok



So him pushing off concrete would make a loud boom like that. You do know that yamcha, krillin, tien, and chazu was running 500 mps before the tournament. Im pretty sure that they were able to reach the speed of sound during the tournament.



What people, are you referring to the z fighters or do you have a instance besides the slow kamahameha wave that a human seen a blast. I'll be waiting.



Thats you in denial.


How do you know how long it takes since they slow everything down in dragonball. Let me give you an example. Do you remember when gohun and super buu was fighting inside of a small mountain and they were fighting so fast that the rocks that was floating in the air didnt even move. They did mutliple of things before the rocks even had time to fall to the ground. Or I can just use master roshi vs krillin fight when they did multiple of things in less then a second and the crowd was in unbelief before they didnt even see it. The only thing they saw was a kick.



Again, how do you know how fast the blast was moving when they slow things down in dbz for us to see it. If superman is so fast why in his comic for tomorrow did a group of soldiers die because he was like some feat away but still couldnt catch not one bullet. Light would have circled around the world 5 times and still had enought time to catch the bullets but superman statement was "even though Im faster then a bullet, sometimes being faster isnt enough."



There havent been one instance of superman fighting at light speed or even fighting on the level of a dbz character.

I am pretty sure SSJ Gogeta can take him.

Originally posted by JacopeX
I am pretty sure SSJ Gogeta can take him.

Can take who, brolly.

I have never said they were slower than sound..

To bad said blasts can't be proven ftl...And Wonder Woman has blocked lasers before eaily and she's slower than Superman.

Because it takes two minutes to say a couple of words? It would take Pan two minutes to get there and back..that's without even getting anything.

Sure they have the potential to reach...Doesn't mean they did.

Superman has flown on Earth at near light speed...a bit behind Flash who basically states he is running faster than light speed. And that still doesn't change the fact that Superman has still moved faster on Earth than any Z fighter has ever shown...Be it below light speed or not.

Um using people saying they can't fight Flash is kinda wrong. Flash is the fastest person in DC so of course Wonder Woman, Superman, and Prime are going to be slower. Zoom if I remember is always ahead in the time stream so he's going to be hard to actually beat in h2h also.

Except said blasts that attack aren't light speed, Superman has effortlessly while not paying attention caught multiple machine gun fire from different directions, and Superman has done everything Gokou has done to a higher degree. Going to France and back without even being noticed to move > anything Gokou can hope to accomplish. Gokou can create after images of himself, and disappear in bursts of speed in a small general area but he can't do the same thing and move around the Earth. Superman has proven he has the reflexes on par with his speed. The fact he doesn't destroy anything by moving so fast he doesn't seem to move yet going through buildings proves it.

Superman doesn't use the speed he has in most fights. Just because he doesn't use it doesn't mean he can't when he's shown the reflexes to match his speed.

Um Flash said himself that Superman got there first because he was closer, and that while Superman isn't faster than him he's close. He also went mach 9 to try and hit Amazo never said he went faster or slower than it took to get there, and he didn't nearly kill Amazo because Amazo dodged using super speed. He still said the battle took a second, and that Superman is almost as fast as him, and that in 3/10ths of a second that it took him to get down there Superman had already fought and was loosing by being hit with red sun energy.

Flash even says that Superman was unable to counter super speed retaliation. Flash had also stolen all of Amazo's speed by the time the JLA got there so they are going to be able to see him. Flash even said that they JLA would be dead before they knew what was happening if he didn't stop Amazo.

Because Freeza knew he could survive in space while Gokou couldn't. Doesn't mean he can fight or fly ftl. There is no instances of that at all. Everytime they fly anywhere it always takes time that if they were ftl would be instant.

And he was talking about when he was still a teenager....Before he had learned to.

Pan can't move halfway around the planet, and back without even looking like she didn't move..much less while also getting something and bringing it back. I never said Z fighters are slower than sound ever. I have said moving faster than somebody can see doesn't prove anything since street levels have.

The difference is..I never said anything about Superman fighting.

I'm talking about every single time they fight in front of humans without any powers the blasts are seen.

I'm in denial? Even though every tournament the blasts are seen easily.

I don't know because Gokou goes to Kami's Lookout then they say they are leaving, then the Cell games are said to start in five minutes, and they get there right before they start. Also the blast wasn't moving fast because Mr. Satan could tell what was happening, and so could Dende. The small blast Buu shot moved faster than the large one.

Was Superman doing something else at said time? And how long ago was it? Because Superman wasn't much faster than sound at one point post-crisis.

There have been multiple instances where Superman has done something proving he has the reflexes to match his speed. Just because he doesn't always fight using super speed doesn't mean he doesn't have reflexes to. Besides he always starts off a fight with a bullrush half the time. That would hit plenty of people slower than him, and hurt plenty of people not invincible.

Originally posted by Kento
I have never said they were slower than sound..

To bad said blasts can't be proven ftl...And Wonder Woman has blocked lasers before eaily and she's slower than Superman.

Because it takes two minutes to say a couple of words? It would take Pan two minutes to get there and back..that's without even getting anything.

Sure they have the potential to reach...Doesn't mean they did.

Superman has flown on Earth at near light speed...a bit behind Flash who basically states he is running faster than light speed. And that still doesn't change the fact that Superman has still moved faster on Earth than any Z fighter has ever shown...Be it below light speed or not.

Um using people saying they can't fight Flash is kinda wrong. Flash is the fastest person in DC so of course Wonder Woman, Superman, and Prime are going to be slower. Zoom if I remember is always ahead in the time stream so he's going to be hard to actually beat in h2h also.

Except said blasts that attack aren't light speed, Superman has effortlessly while not paying attention caught multiple machine gun fire from different directions, and Superman has done everything Gokou has done to a higher degree. Going to France and back without even being noticed to move > anything Gokou can hope to accomplish. Gokou can create after images of himself, and disappear in bursts of speed in a small general area but he can't do the same thing and move around the Earth. Superman has proven he has the reflexes on par with his speed. The fact he doesn't destroy anything by moving so fast he doesn't seem to move yet going through buildings proves it.

Superman doesn't use the speed he has in most fights. Just because he doesn't use it doesn't mean he can't when he's shown the reflexes to match his speed.

Um Flash said himself that Superman got there first because he was closer, and that while Superman isn't faster than him he's close. He also went mach 9 to try and hit Amazo never said he went faster or slower than it took to get there, and he didn't nearly kill Amazo because Amazo dodged using super speed. He still said the battle took a second, and that Superman is almost as fast as him, and that in 3/10ths of a second that it took him to get down there Superman had already fought and was loosing by being hit with red sun energy.

Flash even says that Superman was unable to counter super speed retaliation. Flash had also stolen all of Amazo's speed by the time the JLA got there so they are going to be able to see him. Flash even said that they JLA would be dead before they knew what was happening if he didn't stop Amazo.

Because Freeza knew he could survive in space while Gokou couldn't. Doesn't mean he can fight or fly ftl. There is no instances of that at all. Everytime they fly anywhere it always takes time that if they were ftl would be instant.

And he was talking about when he was still a teenager....Before he had learned to.

Pan can't move halfway around the planet, and back without even looking like she didn't move..much less while also getting something and bringing it back. I never said Z fighters are slower than sound ever. I have said moving faster than somebody can see doesn't prove anything since street levels have.

The difference is..I never said anything about Superman fighting.

I'm talking about every single time they fight in front of humans without any powers the blasts are seen.

I'm in denial? Even though every tournament the blasts are seen easily.

I don't know because Gokou goes to Kami's Lookout then they say they are leaving, then the Cell games are said to start in five minutes, and they get there right before they start. Also the blast wasn't moving fast because Mr. Satan could tell what was happening, and so could Dende. The small blast Buu shot moved faster than the large one.

Was Superman doing something else at said time? And how long ago was it? Because Superman wasn't much faster than sound at one point post-crisis.

There have been multiple instances where Superman has done something proving he has the reflexes to match his speed. Just because he doesn't always fight using super speed doesn't mean he doesn't have reflexes to. Besides he always starts off a fight with a bullrush half the time. That would hit plenty of people slower than him, and hurt plenty of people not invincible.

Im going to say it like this kento, until you provide me some proof that superman can fight on levels like this then me and your argument is done. You can use all that space flight crap all you want and him flying to paris, etc.... Show me some proof like Im providing you some combat proof of goku dodging/punching at amazing speed or just stop posting. Youre second guessing, making a character out of something that he isnt. Hoping like a lot of other people on this forum that superman could be a threat to goku but fall to bricks, etc.. and then you throw it off as PIS when superman get killed/humiliated by bricks.

Show me the goku getting handled by bricks, so me superman fighting like this or just give up. I dont care if superman went to get some apple jacks from saturn. I dont care if superman was thirsty and decided to fly somewhere to get anything. That dont have a thing to do with combat speed. Quicksilver ran from genosha which is on another side of the planet to new york in seconds but goku would crush him because quicksilver hasnt dont anything to make me suggest that hes on goku level just like superman.

Now Im going to put up 4 fights. Show me superman doing something against a speedster also just like the z fighter are or just give up and stop adding on abilities that superman have.

and maybe you need to relook at this fight because picollo and android destroy a damn island by physical punching each other and then they made a volcano erupt. The strength in this fight alone make me think that they'll be the second being to break superman jaw with a punch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIPn13LaeBk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X650fsJ9Lis

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dihpxerEQuE

If you dont look at any of the fights (even though I would love for you to look at them) I want you to show me superman, hell you can use superman prime fighting like this. This is the main fight that I want you too look at.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hu164Dlz81Q&feature=related

Out of all of these scans you wont find nothing of superman to even make you suggest that he fight like this. You dont have nothing but him flying to this and this area which is ridiculous. Convince me, show me something of superman because your arguments are lacking.

Originally posted by carver9
Im going to say it like this kento, until you provide me some proof that superman can fight on levels like this then me and your argument is done. You can use all that space flight crap all you want and him flying to paris, etc.... Show me some proof like Im providing you some combat proof of goku dodging/punching at amazing speed or just stop posting. Youre second guessing, making a character out of something that he isnt. Hoping like a lot of other people on this forum that superman could be a threat to goku but fall to bricks, etc.. and then you throw it off as PIS when superman get killed/humiliated by bricks.

Show me the goku getting handled by bricks, so me superman fighting like this or just give up. I dont care if superman went to get some apple jacks from saturn. I dont care if superman was thirsty and decided to fly somewhere to get anything. That dont have a thing to do with combat speed. Quicksilver ran from genosha which is on another side of the planet to new york in seconds but goku would crush him because quicksilver hasnt dont anything to make me suggest that hes on goku level just like superman.

Now Im going to put up 4 fights. Show me superman doing something against a speedster also just like the z fighter are or just give up and stop adding on abilities that superman have.

and maybe you need to relook at this fight because picollo and android destroy a damn island by physical punching each other and then they made a volcano erupt. The strength in this fight alone make me think that they'll be the second being to break superman jaw with a punch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIPn13LaeBk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X650fsJ9Lis

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dihpxerEQuE

If you dont look at any of the fights (even though I would love for you to look at them) I want you to show me superman, hell you can use superman prime fighting like this. This is the main fight that I want you too look at.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hu164Dlz81Q&feature=related

Out of all of these scans you wont find nothing of superman to even make you suggest that he fight like this. You dont have nothing but him flying to this and this area which is ridiculous. Convince me, show me something of superman because your arguments are lacking. How many times do I have to tell you...I am not saying anything about Superman fighting just how fast he can move and his reflexes. Why should I try to prove something I'm not even trying to?

Gokou hasn't done anything to put him on Superman's level speed. Your point? Get off the fighting speed when I'm talking about being able to move faster than anything Gokou can do.

I read the Piccolo/17 fight when I posted the images proving 17 has unlimited energy...I had to find that part and I didn't know it was at the end. Destroying a small island isn't exactly impressive compared to top tiers in DC or Marvel.

You want me to use a comic book to prove they are fighting like something from a anime? You can't since one is stationary images and the other isn't. The only thing to use is the fact Superman has moved faster than people can react, and on Earth moved at near light speed plenty of times. It's been stated as such. Not once is it ever said how fast the Z fighters are fighting but you like to assume they are over light speed and believe what they say if it makes them stronger but unless it's specifically stated by the narrator of a comic you won't believe Superman moving at any type of speed fighting or flying and you won't believe Superman himself.

When I said fighting like that I wasnt talking about martial arts, Im talking about superman dodging/punching the way I showed you in the scans.



I think that you posted this wrong, superman hasnt done anything to be put anywhere NEAR gokus combat speed.



Im not getting off fighting speed when superman isnt nothing but a brick himself. Isnt this a fight, if blast cant hit goku superman aint doing it. Im going to give you a example of what Im talking about when it comes to combat speed and fighting speed because I truly dont think that you know the difference. Surfers flight speed>>>>Supermans, Superman combat speed>>Surfers. Who would get the first couple of lick, superman, do you want to know why because this isnt a flight contest, its a fight and in a physical fight against the surfer, surfer would lose 10/10 because superman combat speed is just to much for him. Now if you let surfer use his powers then its surfer 8/10, I give superman 2 due to his combat speed. Again, I have asked for this a thousand times, show me a scan of superman blitzing at light speed and it actually saying it. Would you like an example:

http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/7296/hyperspeed11mv.jpg
http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/3034/ego067lu.jpg

Now we have learned that gladiator can blitz at light speed, now show me the same for superman.



Show me superman most destructive fight because his fight with mantis and kalibak did nothing but destroy a building. His fight with doomsday did nothing but shatter some windows. His fight with darkseid on earth did nothing but shatter a barn. His 1st fight with titus didnt do jack but create a small crater in the ground. His second fight with titus, they fought in a small room. His fight with black adam didnt do nothing but mess up the street. What fight is this with superman that you are referring about.



Superman combat speed>>>>>naruto. Superman combat speed>>> urameshi, Superman combat speed>>> pyron, but what does this have to do with Superman vs goku. Show me some combat speed that rival or is equal to goku or stop debating goku vs superman when you dont have anything to suggest that he is anywhere near goku in that area.



Flash does it, why cant superman.



Since it has been plenty of times (making up stuff again) it shouldnt be hard for you to show me two instances. I'll be waiting.



Im using the fact that goku was fighting faster then lightning when he was young and his speed during the vegeta saga>>>>since then. Or I can just bring up him moving so fast that blasts that have made it to the moon in seconds appeared as if it went through his body but he was dodging the entire time. Show me superman dodging hundreds of punches coming at him from speedster, can you show me that.



Dragonball dont have a narrator but they do have people commenting on there speed. Goku was moving faster then the eye can as a child. Goku at 17 vs superman at 17, goku would destroy him, just like the adult version would.

Flash creating a sonic boom.
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff102/Wally_Respect2/bulfso3.jpg
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff102/Wally_Respect2/bulfso4.jpg

Flash creates another sonic boom and leaves superman in the dust.
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff102/Wally_Respect2/supcatfla9.jpg


Superman unable to catch all of the bullets by himself and it was only 500 of them. I wonder if someone moving the speed of light could have caught them.
http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee305/Wally_Respect3/5bul.jpg


Flash doing what I asked you to show me of superman. Creating numerous of after images. Something that goku has done as a child.
http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee305/Wally_Respect3/afterim2.jpg

Originally posted by carver9
When I said fighting like that I wasnt talking about martial arts, Im talking about superman dodging/punching the way I showed you in the scans.



I think that you posted this wrong, superman hasnt done anything to be put anywhere NEAR gokus combat speed.



Im not getting off fighting speed when superman isnt nothing but a brick himself. Isnt this a fight, if blast cant hit goku superman aint doing it. Im going to give you a example of what Im talking about when it comes to combat speed and fighting speed because I truly dont think that you know the difference. Surfers flight speed>>>>Supermans, Superman combat speed>>Surfers. Who would get the first couple of lick, superman, do you want to know why because this isnt a flight contest, its a fight and in a physical fight against the surfer, surfer would lose 10/10 because superman combat speed is just to much for him. Now if you let surfer use his powers then its surfer 8/10, I give superman 2 due to his combat speed. Again, I have asked for this a thousand times, show me a scan of superman blitzing at light speed and it actually saying it. Would you like an example:

http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/7296/hyperspeed11mv.jpg
http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/3034/ego067lu.jpg

Now we have learned that gladiator can blitz at light speed, now show me the same for superman.



Show me superman most destructive fight because his fight with mantis and kalibak did nothing but destroy a building. His fight with doomsday did nothing but shatter some windows. His fight with darkseid on earth did nothing but shatter a barn. His 1st fight with titus didnt do jack but create a small crater in the ground. His second fight with titus, they fought in a small room. His fight with black adam didnt do nothing but mess up the street. What fight is this with superman that you are referring about.



Superman combat speed>>>>>naruto. Superman combat speed>>> urameshi, Superman combat speed>>> pyron, but what does this have to do with Superman vs goku. Show me some combat speed that rival or is equal to goku or stop debating goku vs superman when you dont have anything to suggest that he is anywhere near goku in that area.



Flash does it, why cant superman.



Since it has been plenty of times (making up stuff again) it shouldnt be hard for you to show me two instances. I'll be waiting.



Im using the fact that goku was fighting faster then lightning when he was young and his speed during the vegeta saga>>>>since then. Or I can just bring up him moving so fast that blasts that have made it to the moon in seconds appeared as if it went through his body but he was dodging the entire time. Show me superman dodging hundreds of punches coming at him from speedster, can you show me that.



Dragonball dont have a narrator but they do have people commenting on there speed. Goku was moving faster then the eye can as a child. Goku at 17 vs superman at 17, goku would destroy him, just like the adult version would. I know exactly what you meant...And I'm not the one who keeps bringing up fighting..I'm not talking about fighting at all...You are not me. Is that hard to understand? Why should I prove something I'm not even trying to?

When did I say combat?? I said Superman's level of speed...Gokou isn't anywhere near Superman when it comes to speed.

No this is who is more powerful than Broli that you like bringing up how Superman fights so much slower because he doesn't fight like Z fighters...In a physical fight Surfer wouldn't loose 10/10 to Superman...Surfer can amp himself stronger, has taken stronger blows than Superman can dish out, and I think I remember Janus in the comic versus forms proving Surfer has combat speed on par with his speed..I'll have to try and find that later tonight. Darthgoober may have also.

They destroyed they small island by slamming each other into it..That's not much different than Superman/Marvel fight in JLU. And the top tiers in Marvel can destroy islands quite easy. And I never said Superman..I said destroying an island isn't impressive to top tiers in DC and Marvel.

I could have him doing any number of things effortlessly that Gokou does and you'll still say Gokou is faster yet not once is it ever stated how fast the Z fighters go. And Naruto, Yu Yu Hakusho, and all the fighting manga out there have people that move at speeds normal people can't see and then get blitzed by faster people, and everything Z fighters do. The only way the Z fighters are proven to be faster are they can get around the Earth in minutes. In other words because of their flight speed. Not their combat speed which slower people have the same feats doing but flight. Z fighters have alot more durability than other fighting manga but most of their fighting combat feats can be mocked by a lot of others like disappearing from view of people who can move faster than humans can see.

Flash I know of has at least one comic that lasts a a few seconds. And in that he beats a villain, saves the JLA, and builds a computer scroll that scrolls at light speed to read something on it. Flash is speed...it's his whole gimick. And even then you can't actually prove he's moving like in the anime because it's still images. All you have is his statements or his wife or whatever.

Making up stuff..just like I made up 17 and 18 having unlimited energy..or Gohan being ssj2 as an adult. You'll have to wait for later tonight to get you a few instances of Superman moving faster than people can react...He's done it faster than Batman could react, faster than Lois, faster than a small army of men. It's not like it's hard to find just time consuming going through the whole Superman thread..which is even worse when half the images don't work anymore.

And yet...Those blasts he dodge aren't the same speed as the ones that destroyed the moon...Ya know two instances compared to every other blast seen by normal people doesn't make those two instances the norm. Kakashi was faster than lightning as a kid, he's gotten a lot faster since then. Kakashi must be a faster fighter than Superman then. How can I show Superman dodging blows from speedsters when DC speedsters (flash and them) are a lot faster than him or (wonder woman and anybody not part of the speed force) are on par with him almost?

The manga does have narration. High street/low meta have been able to move faster than humans can follow. Of Course Gokou at 17 would beat Clark at 17...Clark wasn't as skilled in his powers, wasn't as fast, and wasn't as strong. There is a big difference between Clark before he became Superman, and the Superman of now. Smarter, faster, stronger, more skilled in using his powers, more skilled in general. Not a fair comparison when Gokou was adept at using his powers at a younger age.

Originally posted by carver9
Flash creating a sonic boom.
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff102/Wally_Respect2/bulfso3.jpg
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff102/Wally_Respect2/bulfso4.jpg

Flash creates another sonic boom and leaves superman in the dust.
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff102/Wally_Respect2/supcatfla9.jpg


Superman unable to catch all of the bullets by himself and it was only 500 of them. I wonder if someone moving the speed of light could have caught them.
http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee305/Wally_Respect3/5bul.jpg


Flash doing what I asked you to show me of superman. Creating numerous of after images. Something that goku has done as a child.
http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee305/Wally_Respect3/afterim2.jpg Flash intentionally created those sonic booms...

When did Superman or Flash ever say Superman couldn't catch them all? Flash just tells Superman to calm down and that he has them.

You've already seen Superman creating afterimages of himself..You even mentioned it with the Imperiex thing..

Im not trying to throw anything on you. I just asked for something simple. I asked you to show me superman fighting at a fast pace like the z warriors does but you keep talking about flight. I dont care about flight. Rogue can fly faster then black bolt but black bolt would still whip that ass. Firelord can fly faster then orion but orion would still tap that ass Show me some combat speed or stop talking about superman being able to keep up with goku.



For some strange reason you keep having typos, let me help you. Superman isnt anywhere near gokus level of COMBAT speed.

There you go, can I get a thanks.



He dont..... Krillin has more amazing combat speed feats then superman does. For superman to be so fast he sure as hell get crushed by a lot of bricks. His entire rogue gallery is nothing but bricks. I cant wait until they make his comics like the dbz comics since he has this amazing speed. Have him winking out everywhere throwing 100's of punches in a second and creating multiple of after images doing different things (LOL at that ever happening).



Surfer would lose 10/10 against superman due to combat speed. The only thing that darth posted was surfer catching blast (which surfer does totally different then dbz characters), if you want to use that to say that surfer can keep up with superman then goku during the 2 tournament should be able to overwhelm him. I have been all through the silver surfer vs superman thread, you'll see my name all through there but I know that superman would physically crush surfer if it was a physical confrontation due to combat speed. He can amp himself but he'll be gone by then. for every lick that surfer would get superman would get 2 more. I love surfer and hes my favorite character but without the use of his powers superman would cream him.



Show me them destroying a island the way that picollo and 17 did. Neither of there punches touched the island, it was the sheer force of the punches that was doing it. I want you to show me supermans most destructive fight. Not a space fight that end up on the ground, Im referring to superman being in a city or island, etc... where there is a lot of damage being caused. Hell ion and superman prime fight couldnt even destroy a cemetary.



Show me him doing this against a speedster and him actually hitting him then I'll believe you. Im quite sure youre going to put up a scan of superman creating a after image while fighting mongul who is a brick. Or youre going to post the doomsday fight when he defeated a weakened doomsday and was moving side to side avoiding punches from another brick who as a matter of fact was weakened. Show me something different. I want to see superman keeping up with speedster. You just told me that flash stated that superman was close to his speed so you should be able to show me superman winking out everywhere.



No manga fight like dbz characters does. The only one that is close is Yu Yu and thats about it and even then, Yu Yu isnt even close to the speed that goku had after the frieza saga. Do you want to know something about Yu Yu though, he punched a thousand people out of orbit in the blink of an eye during the last tournament. I already said that Yu Yu should be able to whip Superman a** also. Hell, taguro would give superman a fight. Anyone can tell who is faster between goku and Yu Yu and who has the best combat speed.



What does going around the earth has to do with combat speed and what reason would any dbz character need to go around the earth. When have they ever needed to rush for anything. Maybe you can help me.



Show me spiderman punching someone 3 times in the blink of an eye. Show me spiderman disappearing for minutes in front of a crowds face. Show me spiderman spinning around in a circle, making himself a living tornado. Show me spiderman creating 6 after images doing different things. Show me spiderman performing 8 moves but the only thing that was seen was a drop kick by the audience. All of this is what kid goku has done or how about this, show me spiderman running 500 mps. Flight speed dont equal combat speed. Im going to continue to say this until you get it. Naah, I know what Im going to do, Im going to make a thread about this.



Prove it, show me a manga creating after images and we know for a fact that its after images. Show someone slapping multiple and multiple of blast out of the air like it nothing. Show me someone standing in one spot and blast are being shot through them but it look like its connecting but the person is moving so fast that he appears to be standing still.



Flash is speed just like goku is speed but they just use there speed in different ways. Flash has done some things that goku have done in fights but I just want to see what reasons are in your head that is giving you the assumption that superman could even pose a threat to goku.



You dont even need to post scans of superman moving faster then HUMANS can react because I know for a fact that its true, he is superman. I want you to show me him fighting a speedster and keeping up with him with them winking out everywhere like goku and cell. I can find a scan of spiderman moving faster then a human can react, thats not helping superman in any case. Post me a scan of a fight that is happening around humans or super humans and they arent able to see whats going on because the person and superman are moving to fast.



How do you know, are you basically saying that a weaker picollo blast>>>every blast that goku has dodged.



Kakashi isnt close to supermans speed but kakashi also has some amazing powers at his ability and some of the things that he does is unbelief and dont have anything to do with strength or speed. Sometimes its just skill.



Frieza was faster then goku but goku was winking out everywhere right along with him. Cell was faster then goku but goku was right along with him and if you are on par with them shouldnt you be able to keep up with them. Im glad you brought that up, show me some superman vs wonder woman or superman vs captain marvel or black adam fights with them using amazing speed. I know you can do it, I got faith in you man.



So low metas have basically disappeared in front of people for a long period of time. Basically disappear in front of there eyes but they are still there. That is a powerful meta if they did and you truly have to show me this.

You do know that both have grown in power, speed, and strength. It just dont go one way, except goku has grown tremendously after the age of 17, hell, after the raditz fight.



Well since he has gained all of this, you shouldnt have a hard time showing me something that show him fighting like goku

Originally posted by carver9
Im not trying to throw anything on you. I just asked for something simple. I asked you to show me superman fighting at a fast pace like the z warriors does but you keep talking about flight. I dont care about flight. Rogue can fly faster then black bolt but black bolt would still whip that ass. Firelord can fly faster then orion but orion would still tap that ass Show me some combat speed or stop talking about superman being able to keep up with goku.



For some strange reason you keep having typos, let me help you. Superman isnt anywhere near gokus level of COMBAT speed.

There you go, can I get a thanks.



He dont..... Krillin has more amazing combat speed feats then superman does. For superman to be so fast he sure as hell get crushed by a lot of bricks. His entire rogue gallery is nothing but bricks. I cant wait until they make his comics like the dbz comics since he has this amazing speed. Have him winking out everywhere throwing 100's of punches in a second and creating multiple of after images doing different things (LOL at that ever happening).



Surfer would lose 10/10 against superman due to combat speed. The only thing that darth posted was surfer catching blast (which surfer does totally different then dbz characters), if you want to use that to say that surfer can keep up with superman then goku during the 2 tournament should be able to overwhelm him. I have been all through the silver surfer vs superman thread, you'll see my name all through there but I know that superman would physically crush surfer if it was a physical confrontation due to combat speed. He can amp himself but he'll be gone by then. for every lick that surfer would get superman would get 2 more. I love surfer and hes my favorite character but without the use of his powers superman would cream him.



Show me them destroying a island the way that picollo and 17 did. Neither of there punches touched the island, it was the sheer force of the punches that was doing it. I want you to show me supermans most destructive fight. Not a space fight that end up on the ground, Im referring to superman being in a city or island, etc... where there is a lot of damage being caused. Hell ion and superman prime fight couldnt even destroy a cemetary.



Show me him doing this against a speedster and him actually hitting him then I'll believe you. Im quite sure youre going to put up a scan of superman creating a after image while fighting mongul who is a brick. Or youre going to post the doomsday fight when he defeated a weakened doomsday and was moving side to side avoiding punches from another brick who as a matter of fact was weakened. Show me something different. I want to see superman keeping up with speedster. You just told me that flash stated that superman was close to his speed so you should be able to show me superman winking out everywhere.



No manga fight like dbz characters does. The only one that is close is Yu Yu and thats about it and even then, Yu Yu isnt even close to the speed that goku had after the frieza saga. Do you want to know something about Yu Yu though, he punched a thousand people out of orbit in the blink of an eye during the last tournament. I already said that Yu Yu should be able to whip Superman a** also. Hell, taguro would give superman a fight. Anyone can tell who is faster between goku and Yu Yu and who has the best combat speed.



What does going around the earth has to do with combat speed and what reason would any dbz character need to go around the earth. When have they ever needed to rush for anything. Maybe you can help me.



Show me spiderman punching someone 3 times in the blink of an eye. Show me spiderman disappearing for minutes in front of a crowds face. Show me spiderman spinning around in a circle, making himself a living tornado. Show me spiderman creating 6 after images doing different things. Show me spiderman performing 8 moves but the only thing that was seen was a drop kick by the audience. All of this is what kid goku has done or how about this, show me spiderman running 500 mps. Flight speed dont equal combat speed. Im going to continue to say this until you get it. Naah, I know what Im going to do, Im going to make a thread about this.



Prove it, show me a manga creating after images and we know for a fact that its after images. Show someone slapping multiple and multiple of blast out of the air like it nothing. Show me someone standing in one spot and blast are being shot through them but it look like its connecting but the person is moving so fast that he appears to be standing still.



Flash is speed just like goku is speed but they just use there speed in different ways. Flash has done some things that goku have done in fights but I just want to see what reasons are in your head that is giving you the assumption that superman could even pose a threat to goku.



You dont even need to post scans of superman moving faster then HUMANS can react because I know for a fact that its true, he is superman. I want you to show me him fighting a speedster and keeping up with him with them winking out everywhere like goku and cell. I can find a scan of spiderman moving faster then a human can react, thats not helping superman in any case. Post me a scan of a fight that is happening around humans are super humans and they arent able to see whats going on because the person and superman are moving to fast.



How do you know, are you basically saying that a weaker picollo blast>>>every blast that goku has dodged.



Kakashi isnt close to supermans speed but kakashi also has some amazing powers at his ability and some of the things that he does is unbelief and dont have anything to do with strength or speed. Sometimes its just skill.



Frieza was faster then goku but goku was winking out everywhere right along with him. Cell was faster then goku but goku was right along with him and if you are on par with them shouldnt you be able to keep up with them. Im glad you brought that up, show me some superman vs wonder woman or superman vs captain marvel or black adam fights with them using amazing speed. I know you can do it, I got faith in you man.



So low metas have basically disappeared in front of people for a long period of time. Basically disappear in front of there eyes but they are still there. That is a powerful meta if they did and you truly have to show me this. You keep asking me to prove something I never said...And Black Bolt has taken hits from Hulk..so Rouge really shouldn't hurt him. Besides..Can BB even fly? Of course Rouge can fly faster. Don't know anything about Firelord...or Orion. Don't like Orion and don't read Marvel.

No you keep trying to stick words where they aren't. I never said anything about combat. Superman doesn't use his speed to fight all that much. He does however use it t do a lot of different stuff and he has the reflexes to keep himself from destroying anything while doing it on Earth be it running or flying.
Even in the manga they fights aren't alway like the fights in the anime of DB..

How is Superman going to physically crush somebody who can take shots from more powerful people? And like I said I'll look at the Surfer thing later tonight.

They threw each other into the ground cracking it and everything. Superman has a lot of fights in cities? Why would he destroy it? He's also been punched through the planet before..or well if I remember he punched Bizarro they just switched bodies. And destructive is a loose term. I could show Superman nuking a small island while he's laced in kryptonite and surviving island being destroyed..That would be a destructive fight but not from hitting people into it and everything. I could show Hulk hitting the ground, destroying a forest and everything from Maine to Illinois feeling the effect. Or narration saying that scientist pick up a small quake on the eastern seaboard from someting Hulk does. Of course a city isn't going to be destroyed, and a lot of fights are in cities not small islands or unpopulated places in comics.

What makes you assume Mongul is slow? Or Bizarro? And as I've said how is Superman going to move faster than a speedster in DC can move when they are his speed or a lot faster?

Oh please almost every fighting manga I've read has people who move a lot faster than normal people and get blitzed by other people just like DBZ and YYH. Sasuke Uchiha beat a small army of people in almost an instant, Kyo Mibu knocked out a large group of people without anybody seeing what happened while holding back. Kyoshiro Mibu destroyed a army of puppets neary instantly. Ban Mido without even using his full speed hit with precision like 30 pressure points in a second. Kazuma was actually stated to be faster than sound while fighting. Rock Lee wth the gates moved faster than anybody could register, and even when just taking off weights disappeared from everybodies view except the teachers and Hokage. Kenshiro fought so fast against his real brother that he wasn't even seen moving. He's also caught somebody who teleports.

I don't know to Gokou's sons, and Trunks would have been a nice time. And Gotenks did it just for fun. And obviously Gokou saying Pan is slow going around the Earth must mean something to do with their fighting speed or it wouldn't be training her. Getting Gokou to his house and getting him medicine.

I said Manga characters that are slower not comic book.

I said fighting...Not every manga has blasts.

No I'm saying two instances does't make something true when there are a lot more times when said blasts are seen by normal people no matter what.

Oh right Batman and Logan have both got feats moving faster than humans can detect..Batman even has a feat of taking Kyles ring without him even knowing it.

Originally posted by carver9
You do know that both have grown in power, speed, and strength. It just dont go one way, except goku has grown tremendously after the age of 17, hell, after the raditz fight.



Well since he has gained all of this, you shouldnt have a hard time showing me something that show him fighting like goku Actually Superman has grown more in power. But that's neither her nor there...And how many times will I have to say this...Why would I show something I'm not trying to prove. I could care less about Superman's fighting speed. He's shown plenty of times he's got the reflexes to match his running speed but you won't even accept that so what does it matter to even try and prove he's faster at fighting when you accuse me of downplaying DB feats and you downplay Superman's just because he holds back and doesn't use all his powers. He could just freeze half the people he fights..does he no. Why? because it's a comic and having Superman beat somebody when he has the league helping doesn't really work.

HUUUUUUH, I made this just for you http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t489485.html



Rogue has also taken hits from hulk and yes black bolt can fly.



So I guess if goku is pitted against superman one day he will learn this amazing combat speed and be able to keep up with superman or will the fight go like it did when it was actually written with superman being overwhelmed from gokus speed. The thing about this is that goku not only has the combat speed but he also have the reflexes.



yes it is, you see multiple of hits in the comics so they just put in on paper. Its not hard to realize when someone is moving fast or doing after images.



Superman would take surfer every time in a physical fight, its just that simple.



That wasnt just a crack.



Who say that he is trying to destroy it. If he plan on taking out his villains that has high durability, hes going to have to hit them pretty hard or how about punching them and moving so fast that you get behind there body and punch them again like dbz characters does. That should stop a lot of collateral damage.



Can I see this?



Why would I want to see different when it has nothing to do with fighting destruction.



That hulk is far stronger then superman and goku. That hulk had the strength of a celestial.



He isnt slow but he isnt close to being in gokus league. I put him around spiderman league when it come to speed.



Bizarro falls under the same league as superman, fail when it comes to true combat speed.



He dont have to pass them in speed I want to see them fighting and winking out at tremdous speed. Would you like for me to show you a flash vs zoom fight so that you could get a better understanding.



So why are you trying to give all of these people credit but take credit away from goku. You say that they move at this amazing speed but you try to down play goku by saying that other manga has done this so it must be the way manga draw things but in actuality its not happening. The way goku fights happen foreal, the way the people that you named did everything, they did it foreal. It might just be the way manga like to have there characters. Having amazing speed.



I dont get this post so I'll leave it alone.



I agree, some manga characters are slow but not dbz or Yu Yu.



I know every manga dont have blast but they also dont have any comparable combat feats even beating raditz. So your point was moot (not trying to be rude, if you took it like that, my bad.).



Show me superman dodging multiples of blast. That would be nice.

What does this have to do with anything since goku at the age of 4 was so much faster and stronger then both of them put together.



But that is something that needs to be proved in order for superman to be a threat against goku.



Show me this and show me at least two instances. I know superman has good speed and if superman fought the hulk he would get the first 3 or 5 punches. If superman fought surfer he would get the 1st 2 or 3 punches if it was a physical fight but goku reflexes and combat speed is something totally different. Can you show me superman fighting on the level of nappa or not. Im not trying to say that you downplay dbz but your keep saying biased things like comparing gokus speed to spidermans and wolverines. I could easily do the same to supes.



So he purposely let himself get knocked out by kalibak and darksied. He purposely let himself get killed by doomsday. He purposely let konvikt ko him. You do know that if you are so much more faster then your opponents you should be able to see them in slow motion, even if your holding back. If flash was holding back would I be able to punch him in the face.



Superman try freeze breath on all of his opponents but it doesnt work. Do you honestly think that freeze breath would work on kalibak, darkseid, lobo, konvikt, etc.. I honestly dont. That wouldnt even slow them down.



Every opponent that flash fight or goku fight that are slower then them, they run all over them. Stop making excuses for superman. Im going to post a zoom vs flash fight. Zoom was faster so he crushed flash.

Originally posted by carver9
HUUUUUUH, I made this just for you http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t489485.html



Rogue has also taken hits from hulk and yes black bolt can fly.



So I guess if goku is pitted against superman one day he will learn this amazing combat speed and be able to keep up with superman or will the fight go like it did when it was actually written with superman being overwhelmed from gokus speed. The thing about this is that goku not only has the combat speed but he also have the reflexes.



yes it is, you see multiple of hits in the comics so they just put in on paper. Its not hard to realize when someone is moving fast or doing after images.



Superman would take surfer every time in a physical fight, its just that simple.



That wasnt just a crack.



Who say that he is trying to destroy it. If he plan on taking out his villains that has high durability, hes going to have to hit them pretty hard or how about punching them and moving so fast that you get behind there body and punch them again like dbz characters does. That should stop a lot of collateral damage.



Can I see this?



Why would I want to see different when it has nothing to do with fighting destruction.



That hulk is far stronger then superman and goku. That hulk had the strength of a celestial.



He isnt slow but he isnt close to being in gokus league. I put him around spiderman league when it come to speed.



Bizarro falls under the same league as superman, fail when it comes to true combat speed.



He dont have to pass them in speed I want to see them fighting and winking out at tremdous speed. Would you like for me to show you a flash vs zoom fight so that you could get a better understanding.



So why are you trying to give all of these people credit but take credit away from goku. You say that they move at this amazing speed but you try to down play goku by saying that other manga has done this so it must be the way manga draw things but in actuality its not happening. The way goku fights happen foreal, the way the people that you named did everything, they did it foreal. It might just be the way manga like to have there characters. Having amazing speed.



I dont get this post so I'll leave it alone.



I agree, some manga characters are slow but not dbz or Yu Yu.



I know every manga dont have blast but they also dont have any comparable combat feats even beating raditz. So your point was moot (not trying to be rude, if you took it like that, my bad.).



Show me superman dodging multiples of blast. That would be nice. Your still not getting it. When did I ever say anything about combat speed = to fighting speed? I just said Superman has the reflexes to go with his running, and flying speed. I haven't even attempted to say anything about Superman's fighting speed and keep off the subject.

Hmm really? Didn't know Black Bolt could fly. Has Rogue ever beaten Hulk though? BB has..a lot actually. I've seen a scan saying BB is actually a close second to Hulk in strength.

And I can post images of Superman's hands in different spots, or like the Imperiex thing and you say he's not going that fast..And no they fights aren't like they are in the manga. For one the fights are a bit more destructive and longer in the anime than the manga. 17/Piccolo fight is a example

And no evidence that Surfer can be koed by Superman?

If Superman fought like 17 and Piccolo did...he'd destroy the city.

I'll get it...It's in the Superman Respect thread. In the same comic though Superman admits Bizarro is stronger than him.

Was it actually said about Hulk or just guessing? Because Thor and Herc armwrestling have done more. And a Celestial should be a lot stronger than just shaking a small part of the USA.


Wonder Woman has disappeared from Superman's view and appeared behind him..Would that count for you?

I'm not giving them credit..I'm just proving that Z feats minus the blast aren't anything new or unable to be replicated by slower people than the Z fighters because the Z fighters can get places a lot faster.

You asked when they have had to get anywhere...Gokou wanted to get his sons when Buu blew up Earth but he didn't have time to fly there and he couldn't IT there and then away from Earth because he even said he only has time for one teleport. Yamcha takes Gokou to his house to give him his medicince Trunks brought back..That's plenty of reason to get a dying Gokou home to cure him. Gotenks used his full speed at ssj to fly around the planet just for fun and to fly to Buu's house because he's a cocky idiot.

Except almost every manga I've read minus shoujo or like Cased Closed or sports manga have feats comparable to any DBZ fights.

Why would Superman block lasers? He takes them all the time they don't hurt? Hasn't Wonder Woman blocked a bunch of lasers? And she's unable to blitz Superman.

Originally posted by carver9
What does this have to do with anything since goku at the age of 4 was so much faster and stronger then both of them put together.



But that is something that needs to be proved in order for superman to be a threat against goku.



Show me this and show me at least two instances. I know superman has good speed and if superman fought the hulk he would get the first 3 or 5 punches. If superman fought surfer he would get the 1st 2 or 3 punches if it was a physical fight but goku reflexes and combat speed is something totally different. Can you show me superman fighting on the level of nappa or not. Im not trying to say that you downplay dbz but your keep saying biased things like comparing gokus speed to spidermans and wolverines. I could easily do the same to supes.



So he purposely let himself get knocked out by kalibak and darksied. He purposely let himself get killed by doomsday. He purposely let konvikt ko him. You do know that if you are so much more faster then your opponents you should be able to see them in slow motion, even if your holding back. If flash was holding back would I be able to punch him in the face.



Superman try freeze breath on all of his opponents but it doesnt work. Do you honestly think that freeze breath would work on kalibak, darkseid, lobo, konvikt, etc.. I honestly dont. That wouldnt even slow them down.



Every opponent that flash fight or goku fight that are slower then them, they run all over them. Stop making excuses for superman. Im going to post a zoom vs flash fight. Zoom was faster so he crushed flash. Gokou was never shown at age 4...The series started out with him 12..And it has to do with the fact that you keep using them being able to disappear from a group of humans eyes in the tournament as a huge speed feat.

I'm not arguing who would win Gokou or Superman...just that Gokou isn't light speed or even close...

You keep saying fight...And any time Flash races Superman through a city..that pretty much gives him good reflexes because he doesn't plow through buildings or cars. And I didn't compare Gokou to Logan or Spidey..I just said disappearing from view isn't a big deal as you make it out to be when said person is also a normal human. And that can only do it in bursts. I already admitted Gokou is way beyond sound....

Superman has admitted to seeing lightning in slow motion. Didn't I hear somewhere that the person who wrote Konvict said he had super speed? I don't know. Why would Kalibak be slow if he's the son of Darkseid? Why would Darkseid be slow? He's smacked Superman who was bullrushing him if I remember right.

It worked on Wonder Woman, and it worked on a lot in Batman/Superman. Darkseid survives in space as does Lobo, and Kalibak of course ice breathe isn't going to work. But ice breathe should work on people like Metallo, and Toyman, and a whole plethora of villains that can't survive the freezing cold of space. Superman can dodge bullets, Superman has dodged Batman easily, Superman can dodge a lot of stuff he doesn't and he doesn't always use all the powers he has.

Kento, youre a cool guy but why arent you letting me win. Its not hard, just say, carver your right and that would end this.
I know youre getting fustrated.



With you posting up things saying that superman flying through space and flying to get some wine, thats comparing combat speed to flight speed when its two different things.



Black bolt is a beast but his max flight speed is 550 mph and his master blow is comparable to hulks strength but thats about it. He still has the ability to beat hulk though.



I never said that superman wasnt going that fast because honestly he is. I asked you to post something different then imperex since it was a one time showing. One time showings dont count unless you think that superman could get koed by a exploding gas station.



Superman was serious against doomsday and they didnt do anything but shatter some glass. Superman admitted on panel that he wasnt holding back on black adam and they did nothing but destroy the street. Superboy prime was serious when he was fighting ion also but couldnt even destroy a small cemetary.



Now I agree with this post but I know one thing, surfer would give up after the long beat down hes going to be getting from superman.



Android 17 and picollo was already doing city destroying damages with there punches and superman fight nothing like the way picollo and 17 did. Not in his dreams.



Thanks, and I also agree that bizarro is stronger then superman. Superman has admitted this to himself of numerous of occasions.



Hulk stated that if he stepped again he was going to destroy the planet which is celestial level of power (but it was beyonder that stated that hulk had infinite strength and I read somewhere else stating that hulk strength is matched only by a celestial).



Now I loved that scene and yes it does count. What would have made it more interesting is if superman actually speed behind her instead of losing view of her and then trying to here her heart beat before she attacked.



and who are these slower people that move and fight like dragonball characters.



and how fast do you think that the blast was going, I dont know because they slow everything down in dragonball for us to see it and again the same can be sad for superman since in the comic "for tomorrow" 5 soldiers got killed by bullets because superman wasnt fast enough to save them. Or how about aquaman almost dying in the imperex saga because superman wasnt fast enough to make there to save him. Or how about when wonder woman was fighting a imperex probe in space and superman couldnt make it there on time to save her which almost got her killed. Or how about when superman was in space and lois called him to come and save her father while him and black lightning was fighting the imprex probe but superman didnt make it there on time which lead to his death. Light would have made all of these trips instantly.



and how long did that take, did it give a time or was yamcha flying slow because he had a injured goku in his hands.



Didnt gotenks rest when he was looking for buu. How long did he rest after flying around the planet. Was there a time period given or was it 29 minutes of sleep.



and what manga is this besides Yu Yu. Bleach dont even have fighting speed comparable to dbz.

Im referring to the time when he was with his grandfather but yeah, he was much stronger and faster then them at the age of 12.



This is the point of our debate, so that we can get down to the person that would win and yes, goku move a lot faster then light and its debatable that superman could even blitz even close to that speed.



The same could be said for silver surfer since he dodge meteor, etc.... but to bad he has yet to show me combat speed that would keep him in a physical fight with superman.



The way the disappear is totally different. Spiderman and wolverine does short burst but they are still visible, goku and other db characters vanish. If you were to put spiderman and wolverine in the tournament ring that the dragonball characters fight in, do you honestly think that they could vanish from the audience sight.



There is no kind of burst that spiderman or wolverine could do to make a audience lose track of them. Its not within there power. I know that they are fast but they aint close to the speed of doing that, not even a millimeter.



I agree with this because I seen it on panel. To bad goku was moving faster then lightning in the last tournament. That was one part of gokus training from po po, to get goku to be as fast as lightning.



That was never mentioned.



Darkseid isnt a speedster. Scans have been asked of about darksied speed but none have been posted yet.



A lot of people have done this. Solomon grundy has done this but his speed is next to nothing.



It didnt work on wonder woman, she was out immediately unless you forgot when superman picked up a bolder to hit her with it but she was gone.



Metallo is as durable as you can get, if its not working on kalibak it sure as hell isnt working on metallo who is supermans equal in strength. Toyman, I agree with but why would he use ice breath on someone who isnt a physical threat to him. Toyman is a human.



Goku dodged bullets as a child and slapped them out the way like it was nothing so what was the point of this.

Superman is beyond batman when it comes to speed, I agree that he could dodge him also and catch bullets. Even though you catch bullets, etc... that still dont boost up his combat speed.

Originally posted by carver9
Kento, youre a cool guy but why arent you letting me win. Its not hard, just say, carver your right and that would end this.
I know youre getting fustrated.



With you posting up things saying that superman flying through space and flying to get some wine, thats comparing combat speed to flight speed when its two different things.



Black bolt is a beast but his max flight speed is 550 mph and his master blow is comparable to hulks strength but thats about it. He still has the ability to beat hulk though.



I never said that superman wasnt going that fast because honestly he is. I asked you to post something different then imperex since it was a one time showing. One time showings dont count unless you think that superman could get koed by a exploding gas station.



Superman was serious against doomsday and they didnt do anything but shatter some glass. Superman admitted on panel that he wasnt holding back on black adam and they did nothing but destroy the street. Superboy prime was serious when he was fighting ion also but couldnt even destroy a small cemetary.



Now I agree with this post but I know one thing, surfer would give up after the long beat down hes going to be getting from superman.



Android 17 and picollo was already doing city destroying damages with there punches and superman fight nothing like the way picollo and 17 did. Not in his dreams.



Thanks, and I also agree that bizarro is stronger then superman. Superman has admitted this to himself of numerous of occasions.



Hulk stated that if he stepped again he was going to destroy the planet which is celestial level of power (but it was beyonder that stated that hulk had infinite strength and I read somewhere else stating that hulk strength is matched only by a celestial).



Now I loved that scene and yes it does count. What would have made it more interesting is if superman actually speed behind her instead of losing view of her and then trying to here her heart beat before she attacked.



and who are these slower people that move and fight like dragonball characters.



and how fast do you think that the blast was going, I dont know because they slow everything down in dragonball for us to see it and again the same can be sad for superman since in the comic "for tomorrow" 5 soldiers got killed by bullets because superman wasnt fast enough to save them. Or how about aquaman almost dying in the imperex saga because superman wasnt fast enough to make there to save him. Or how about when wonder woman was fighting a imperex probe in space and superman couldnt make it there on time to save her which almost got her killed. Or how about when superman was in space and lois called him to come and save her father while him and black lightning was fighting the imprex probe but superman didnt make it there on time which lead to his death. Light would have made all of these trips instantly.



and how long did that take, did it give a time or was yamcha flying slow because he had a injured goku in his hands.



Didnt gotenks rest when he was looking for buu. How long did he rest after flying around the planet. Was there a time period given or was it 29 minutes of sleep.



and what manga is this besides Yu Yu. Bleach dont even have fighting speed comparable to dbz. You're not so bad yourself. Because we're debating two different things lol. Your doing fighting speed, and I'm just talking about speed in general. Which Superman has more of I could really care less about the whole Gokou vs Superman fight speed debate. I'm just trying to prove they aren't faster than light.

Not it's showing Superman has the reflexes to go with his flight and running speed that he doesn't destroy anything. And I never really said anything about space except once about him not causing sonic booms after he entered Earth's atmosphere flying a lot faster than light.

Yea I never saw BB fly in any scan so I never knew that. That's cool.

And there are a few instances where he's move punches really fast fighting other people. It shows his fist in multiple places punching the guy.

The DOS fight also sent shockwaves felt to Gotham which is about from NY to NJ. Even JLU Superman has destroyed a city block by hitting somebody into it, and destroyed a lot of a city.

Surfer is also a pacifist? I mean he's let Hulk wail on him without really retaliating or being hurt. I can see him doing the same to Superman and I'm a firm believer Hulk > Superman in strength.

I'm not talking about WWH...I'm talking about a older Hulk comic. I'll see if I can get the scan.

Most of that fight was PIS anyway...Superman doesn't need to turn on one power at a time. He should have found her...and he survived a sun-amped Supes punch yet's been beaten by a normal Superman. That would of been cool though I do agree since he should be faster than her by enough to do what she did but she's also a bit more skilled so.

I done told you. Almost everything Z fighters have done Kenshiro, Kyo, and Ban can replicate. Heck Ban has hit somebody up a flight of stairs looking down on him, and came back multiple times without anybody seeing him move without even trying.

It was going fast enough for Gokou unable to IT twice but slow enough Dende could see what was going on, and Mr. Satan. Superman was already fighting something also? There are plenty of instances where Superman has gotten to people after he hears the gunshot and stopped the bullet, and he's moved so fast he's grabbed a bullet without anybody realized he moved as Clark, and catching multiple bullets from a wide-angle in front of him while protecting a injured Batman.

Why would Yamcha fly slow? Gokou wouldn't be heavy to him, and Gokou would be dying.

Gotenks said he slept...But it's Gotenks. He always says stuff that he isn't and didn't do because he tries to make himself look cooler. And he still took a minute to go to Buu's house. He only went around like 6 times anyway which could have gave him time to rest but that still doesn't take from the going to Buu's house feat.

I never said they were as fast..I said they could replicate most of the feats you like to talk about in fighting. Like the disappearing from humans view, and blitzing people who do the same, and appearing in two places at once, and moving so fast they aren't even shown to be moving, and dodge lightning.

Originally posted by carver9
Im referring to the time when he was with his grandfather but yeah, he was much stronger and faster then them at the age of 12.



This is the point of our debate, so that we can get down to the person that would win and yes, goku move a lot faster then light and its debatable that superman could even blitz even close to that speed.



The same could be said for silver surfer since he dodge meteor, etc.... but to bad he has yet to show me combat speed that would keep him in a physical fight with superman.



The way the disappear is totally different. Spiderman and wolverine does short burst but they are still visible, goku and other db characters vanish. If you were to put spiderman and wolverine in the tournament ring that the dragonball characters fight in, do you honestly think that they could vanish from the audience sight.



There is no kind of burst that spiderman or wolverine could do to make a audience lose track of them. Its not within there power. I know that they are fast but they aint close to the speed of doing that, not even a millimeter.



I agree with this because I seen it on panel. To bad goku was moving faster then lightning in the last tournament. That was one part of gokus training from po po, to get goku to be as fast as lightning.



That was never mentioned.



Darkseid isnt a speedster. Scans have been asked of about darksied speed but none have been posted yet.



A lot of people have done this. Solomon grundy has done this but his speed is next to nothing.



It didnt work on wonder woman, she was out immediately unless you forgot when superman picked up a bolder to hit her with it but she was gone.



Metallo is as durable as you can get, if its not working on kalibak it sure as hell isnt working on metallo who is supermans equal in strength. Toyman, I agree with but why would he use ice breath on someone who isnt a physical threat to him. Toyman is a human.



Goku dodged bullets as a child and slapped them out the way like it was nothing so what was the point of this.

Superman is beyond batman when it comes to speed, I agree that he could dodge him also and catch bullets. Even though you catch bullets, etc... that still dont boost up his combat speed. Don't remember that.

Gokou doesn't have the feats to put him light speed at all. And Superman can easily bullrush at near light speed at the least since he's flown it on Earth right behind Flash.

Surfer does have reflexes with his speed...Combat speed who knows but again not what I'm really talking about. Surviving anything Superman can throw at him...and the same not being said for Superman sorta shows Surfer could win.

Yes...Logan has done it to highly trained soldier why couldn't he do it to mere humans? Maybe no the Z fighters even as weak as Roshi but anybody else he could. Batman's grabbed guns out of a few thugs hands before they realized it. Even Raphael has killed somebody before they knew it.

You said about Superman seeing people in slow motion...By all rights he should see everybody in slow motion just like Flash since he sees lightning in slow motion...Yet he still lets himself get hit. That was the only point of that.

It did work on Wonder Woman..She was frozen that sorta worked. She busted out sure but it still froze her for that second.

Metallo has been taken out by Superman quite easily when Manchester Black was controlling a whole city of villains and attacking Superman. Metallo's thing is his kryptonite heart. And even still freeze breath should stop a robot...Kalibak survives in the cold of space has Metallo?

The point is Superman lets himself get hit..Heck he could just phase through every attack if he really wanted yet he doesn't. He can turn himself invisible by vibrating somehow yet he doesn't. He doesn't use much exotic stuff just strength in fights half the time and even less when the fight has the JLA where he gets weaker and Batman gets stronger.

I'll post tomorrow, have a good one.

Originally posted by carver9
I'll post tomorrow, have a good one. Eh turns out I'm not going where I thought I was tonight so I'll have to get the scans tomorrow anyway.

Have a good night.

When the fvck did this turn into a DBZ vs. comics debate? Stay on topic, Jesus...

Broly is powerful but hes not top dog

Janemba
Gogeta
Vegito
Hatachyack
Majin Buu ( Most Forms)

All of these could take Broly !!

According to that OVA, Hatchyak (spelling).

Wtf is Hatchyak?

A villain from some kind of pseudo-movie/OVA thing. It was stated that he was stronger than Brolly

Actually, Goku said that with a bit of uncertainty. And judging by his showing, it was surely Goku just making a blanket statement.

I honestly put Brolly ad a very high end SSJ2 level, but not at or beyond SSJ3.

SSJ3>Brolly>SSJ2

Hatachyack was a Tsuful ( Tuffel) Cpmuter system used by Dr Raichi, it powered Rachis amchines inculdign clone sof Frieza, Cooler, Turles and Lord Slug !! After Rachi si destroyed Hatachyack ( which draws its powers from the hatred the Tsufels had for the Saiyans) Gaisn physical from and King Kai says " Ooh no, he could be even more powerful than Broly" !! He fights the same people as Broly eg Goku, Gohan, Trunks, Vegeta and Piccolo and kicks all their ases at the same time like Broly did. However if the two where to fight i think broly cud wina s he gets stronger and atronge rlike buu does so he would everntually overwhelm Hatackyack !!

Vegetto. Duh...

Dudes power level is at like googleplex...

Hatachyack was brutal..uhh I think there were two endings to that like..one where they all defeat him with a combined blast, and then another where Goku Spirit Bombs him..I'll see if I can still find it O_O. If you type uhhh "Hatachyack" into youtube you get some things. I remember that..it was sorta like a pick your own adventure book or w/e yet a movie of DBZ..and the clones could only be killed the way the people that they were based on died...example like frieza had to die by getting cut in half or else he just kept reforming all buu like after he was blown to bits ^_^. I think the movie was called "The Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans"

Hmm...idk if Hatachyack could Take Broly though..I guess if Broly was smart enough to overload Hatachyack (or honestly just spam ki blasts at him like the tiny palm ones he held and then let go? Or the one from when he returns that he unleashed on Gohan) then he could cause from what I understood Hatachyack seemed to have like a..weird...sorta..kinda....outdated version of Super 17's absorption dealio..cause it seemed like after he got hit with blasts..he would just take them..and fire them right back out of those emrald colored things all over his body...or maybe his durability is just high cause he took like a point blank final flash from vegeta and was all "" like the Kamehameha Broly took from Goku O_O..both movies look as if they take place around the same time? Cause Gohan isn't SSJ2 BUT Trunks if I recall was in his saiyan armor and had short hair?....None the less it was before the time when Broly came back and started whaling on Gohan,Goten,Trunks,Videl and yeah XDDD

Yeah there where two endings, the spirit bomb one is pretty cool, vegeta gets knocked the **** owt by hatachyacks blast savign gouk...which is cool !!

Originally posted by Csdabest
SSJ3>Brolly>SSJ2 Despite the fact that Broly has far better feats?

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Despite the fact that Broly has far better feats? Does he really? Because the one feat everybody harps on about isn't even true. His whole galaxy destroying was proven false the moment Gokou goes to a planet on it. How do you destroy a galaxy yet a planet survive?

His survivng in space isn't really a feat as Paragus did it also and Paragus is extremely weak.

Taking the triple Kamehameha isn't a feat because he blocks it with a shield.

Tanking the Kamehameha in the first movie is a good feat but that only proves he's more durable than just about anybody but durability doesn't equal being more powerful.

The only really other thing he has is beating all the Z fighters before they were ssj2 and blowing up a planet that could be smaller than the moon for all we know.

Originally posted by Kento
Does he really? Because the one feat everybody harps on about isn't even true. His whole galaxy destroying was proven false the moment Gokou goes to a planet on it. How do you destroy a galaxy yet a planet survive?

His survivng in space isn't really a feat as Paragus did it also and Paragus is extremely weak.

Taking the triple Kamehameha isn't a feat because he blocks it with a shield.

Tanking the Kamehameha in the first movie is a good feat but that only proves he's more durable than just about anybody but durability doesn't equal being more powerful.

The only really other thing he has is beating all the Z fighters before they were ssj2 and blowing up a planet that could be smaller than the moon for all we know. 1. King Kai said he has already destroyed MOST of the South Galaxy, not all of it. So it is proven false by nothing.

2. Paragus was in Broly's shield.

3. Nope, ths shield shattered on impact. And he plunged in the sun and only died when his heart exploded from the pressure.

4. That along with his other feats does.

5. Once again, the Power Hierarchy does not affect the Z fighters in the movies. And he blew up said planet while on another planet, and showed pinpoint control over the blast. No one else has done a feat like that either.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
1. King Kai said he has already destroyed MOST of the South Galaxy, not all of it. So it is proven false by nothing.

2. Paragus was in Broly's shield.

3. Nope, ths shield shattered on impact. And he plunged in the sun and only died when his heart exploded from the pressure.

4. That along with his other feats does.

5. Once again, the Power Hierarchy does not affect the Z fighters in the movies. And he blew up said planet while on another planet, and showed pinpoint control over the blast. No one else has done a feat like that either. And everybody keeps saying he blew up a galaxy..which he didn't. And if he blew up most one would think that where his ki is strong would be part he destroyed since buildings and everything around was destroyed.

Not when Broli gave him that scar.

His shield didn't shatter on impact.

And Vegeta blew up a planet with two fingers without much effort. And Piccolo destroyed the moon with a normal blast from Earth. One is canon, one not, and both the size of said thing is known. Master Roshi was able to hit the moon from Earth. So yea Broli throwing a ki ball to something he can see isn't any different than what Piccolo did except probably a lot farther.

Originally posted by Kento
And everybody keeps saying he blew up a galaxy..which he didn't. And if he blew up most one would think that where his ki is strong would be part he destroyed since buildings and everything around was destroyed.

Not when Broli gave him that scar.

His shield didn't shatter on impact.

And Vegeta blew up a planet with two fingers without much effort. And Piccolo destroyed the moon with a normal blast from Earth. One is canon, one not, and both the size of said thing is known. Master Roshi was able to hit the moon from Earth. So yea Broli throwing a ki ball to something he can see isn't any different than what Piccolo did except probably a lot farther. 1. He might as well of, most of the galaxy was destroyed. And I can't really understand your second point...

2. I thought they were just in the upper atmosphere or really high, they were in space?

3. Yeah it did. And it was definately shattered by the time he was in the sun.

4. Exactly, alot farther, and most likely larger since you could see the planet clearly from another planet.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
1. He might as well of, most of the galaxy was destroyed. And I can't really understand your second point...

2. I thought they were just in the upper atmosphere or really high, they were in space?

3. Yeah it did. And it was definately shattered by the time he was in the sun.

4. Exactly, alot farther, and most likely larger since you could see the planet clearly from another planet.
The second point is that the planet Gokou lands on has it's surface all but destroyed and that his ki is still there even though he's gone. If he destroyed even part of the galaxy why would anything be left where his energy is and be partly destroyed. Not to mention Paragus had to get Broli under control, find a planet that was going to be destroyed by a comet soon, get all those aliens to said planet, and get out of the south galaxy and to Earth all in the time it takes for Gokou to get Kai's planet then to the south galaxy. It can't have all happened instantly.

Wasn't there giant floating rocks around?

There wasn't anything showing it shattered at all.

There really is no way to know how big it was or far but to say the others could hit it with a blast is wrong. It's not like Piccolo tried with his moon blast. So this is really pointless to argue. They're is feats of both Piccolo and Roshi hitting the moon without much trouble. Broli being stronger than both of them shouldn't really have trouble doing something even if it is farther nor should any of the Z fighters by Cell saga.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Despite the fact that Broly has far better feats?

Yes, because for all his feats, he still got owned by pre SSJ3 characters.

..Broly destroyed the South Galaxy !! everyone knows that, but you forget there is more than ONE south galaxy, all the galaxys in that quadrant where called south galaxy !!
The planet gouk went to would have been in a south galaxy broly was in but not the one he had just destroyed !!

There is only one South Galaxy

hmm im iffy abotu it

King Kai and his fellow Kai watch over a Galaxy ( the main galaxy in that quadrant of the universe)
with the supreme kais watchign over the entire quadrant !! ( pre buu wars)

the DBZverse is obviously much bigger than 4 galaxys !!

Could Brolly have beaten Super Perfect Cell?

I heard it's 16 galaxies

Originally posted by Vampire Savior
Could Brolly have beaten Super Perfect Cell?

Yes, and with consumate ease I might add, but, Majin Buu onwards? I doubt it...

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Yes, because for all his feats, he still got owned by pre SSJ3 characters. Which has no relevance, the movie is not canon even to the noncanon anime, so the power hierarchy is not a factor. Broly by feats>>>All DBZ characters.

Originally posted by Kento
The second point is that the planet Gokou lands on has it's surface all but destroyed and that his ki is still there even though he's gone. If he destroyed even part of the galaxy why would anything be left where his energy is and be partly destroyed. Not to mention Paragus had to get Broli under control, find a planet that was going to be destroyed by a comet soon, get all those aliens to said planet, and get out of the south galaxy and to Earth all in the time it takes for Gokou to get Kai's planet then to the south galaxy. It can't have all happened instantly.

Wasn't there giant floating rocks around?

There wasn't anything showing it shattered at all.

There really is no way to know how big it was or far but to say the others could hit it with a blast is wrong. It's not like Piccolo tried with his moon blast. So this is really pointless to argue. They're is feats of both Piccolo and Roshi hitting the moon without much trouble. Broli being stronger than both of them shouldn't really have trouble doing something even if it is farther nor should any of the Z fighters by Cell saga. 1. Or, he planned all this after Broly busted said galaxy. Broly's power was there because Broly was literally on the planet. He wiped out that planet's inhabitants, that was made clear.

2. Can't remember.

3. Yes, there was.

4. Meh.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Which has no relevance, the movie is not canon even to the noncanon anime, so the power hierarchy is not a factor. Broly by feats>>>All DBZ characters.

Thats scemantics... thats just as irrelevant.

I gave my oppinion, and why.

Anything pre Majin Buu he'd beat, including Dabura... But Majin Buu onwards? there's no way he's beating guys like Janemba or Omega...

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Thats scemantics... thats just as irrelevant.

I gave my oppinion, and why.

Anything pre Majin Buu he'd beat, including Dabura... But Majin Buu onwards? there's no way he's beating guys like Janemba or Omega... Sure he would.

His feats are far better.

If thats all you have, and your also saying that because he's from a movie therefore can't be considered amongst the heirarchy, then your double dipping, essentially taking only the good, while refuting the bad.

Remember, It was once said that Buu busted a Galaxy, so if you want to play scemantics, then I already have someone WITHIN the heirarchy that has a comparative feat. Dare to compare?

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
If thatsall you have, and your also saying that because he's from a movie therefore can't be considered amongst the heirarchy, then your double dipping, essentially taking only the good, while refuting the bad.

Remember, It was once said that Buu busted a Galaxy, so if you want to play scemantics, then I already have someone WITHIN the heirarchy that has a comparative feat. Dare to compare? 1. No I'm not. Broly and the characters in the movie are not present in the canon hierarchy, in the first movie Broly lost from a BS plot device, and in the second movie he was only killed by three Super Kamehamehas and his own blast sending him through the sun.

2. It was said that Buu eventually destroyed much of the galaxy. And that was in the anime if I remember right. In the manga it was never said that Buu destroyed a galaxy.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
1. No I'm not. Broly and the characters in the movie are not present in the canon hierarchy, in the first movie Broly lost from a BS plot device, and in the second movie he was only killed by three Super Kamehamehas and his own blast sending him through the sun.

2. It was said that Buu eventually destroyed much of the galaxy. And that was in the anime if I remember right. In the manga it was never said that Buu destroyed a galaxy.

#1: Cut it any way you wish, but it remains that Broly lost to an SSJ1 with an energy boost, and then 3 SSJ1 Kamehamehas... your inadvertently trying to set a double standard, by saying that A he has all the best feats, yet got wiped by characters at a level that couldn't beat Cell... You've gotta take the good WITH the bad.

#2: Well, Broly never busted an entire galaxy, which is his best feat... we don't even know HOW he did this, or if it was over a period of time...

Can this feat be quantified?

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
#1: Cut it any way you wish, but it remains that Broly lost to an SSJ1 with an energy boost, and then 3 SSJ1 Kamehamehas... your inadvertently trying to set a double standard, by saying that A he has all the best feats, yet got wiped by characters at a level that couldn't beat Cell... You've gotta take the good WITH the bad.

#2: Well, Broly never busted an entire galaxy, which is his best feat... we don't even know HOW he did this, or if it was over a period of time...

Can this feat be quantified? 1. The SSJ power hierarchy does not count in the movies because the movies are not canon to the anime or manga...That is pretty basic shit.

2. He busted most of the South Galaxy Quadrant, which is 4 galaxies. We SAW the galaxy get busted instantly.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
1. The SSJ power hierarchy does not count in the movies because the movies are not canon to the anime or manga...That is pretty basic shit.

2. He busted most of the South Galaxy Quadrant, which is 4 galaxies. We SAW the galaxy get busted instantly.

#1: Then we'll have to do it by the power of the characters that defeated him, either way, the point still stands.

#2: South Galaxy Quadrant? Where is THAT stated, we only see a single galaxy get almost completely snuffed... Where are the other 3 galaxies even mentioned?

If this is an attempt to overhype the feat, I swear...

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
#1: Then we'll have to do it by the power of the characters that defeated him, either way, the point still stands.

#2: South Galaxy Quadrant? Where is THAT stated, we only see a single galaxy get almost completely snuffed... Where are the other 3 galaxies even mentioned?

If this is an attempt to overhype the feat, I swear... 1. Or we go by Broly's feats(which blow all other DBZ character's feats away). Since the movie is noncanon, their powerlevels are not necessarily the same as they are in canon. It's like Gouki destroying the asteroid with a punch in CFE.

2. When people refer to the North or South galaxy, they are in fact referring to the Quadrants. From the Daizenshu.

#1: Or not, since all that does is overhype a character past what he was able to actually beat when faced with a force that couldn't hope to match it normally, If this becomes purely a featwar, then all you have to say is "Galaxy Bust FTW!!!1!111", which, as you can see, he didn't do. AND, he lost to a guy who would be "Pyron compared to an ant" difference in power...

Feat Wars FTL

#2: Now that I will need proof of...

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
#2: South Galaxy Quadrant? Where is THAT stated, we only see a single galaxy get almost completely snuffed... Where are the other 3 galaxies even mentioned?

The DBZ Universe is divided up into four different quadrants, with Kaioshins ruling over an individual quadrant (the Dai-Kaioshin rules over it all). Then, the quadrants themselves are divided up into four, with a Kai ruling over each individual sub-quadrant (in the Anime the Grand Kai rules over each of the sub-quadrants, apparently reporting to the respective Kaioshin directly). That's how the DBZ universe is divided up in the daizenshu.

There are god knows how many Galaxys in eahc quadrant, people lame ass attempts to make the DBZ verse seems smaller than it is dont work, the DBZ verse like Darth Macabre said is split into 4 quadrants, and within eahc quadrant theer is a main Galaxy which one of the Kais ( King Kais level) watch over. Broly destroyed one of the Galaxys in the southern Quadrant, unlikely the main one which the south Kai watches over, as he would have been in the movie !
I feel so sorry for the south quadrant lol, Broly, Buu and Hirudergarn all first shwoign up in that quadrant ...unlucky

Broly, while being my second favorite DBZ villain, is overrated.

Originally posted by Da Joker
Broly, while being my second favorite DBZ villain, is overrated. Because his feats in DBZ are second to none?

Second to none? Silly boy, they are not. He didn't even destroy an entire galaxy, only a few planets out of the galaxy. Cell & Majin Buu could've done so on a much larger scale.

Based on nothing.

Cell's most powerful blast was stated by him to be Solar System leveled, and let's face it...He was prolly just bragging.

Buu's strongest blast could destroy Earth 10 times over, and btw...Vegeta and Goku were unable to stop thaf blast.

Broly(by King Kai's words) destroyed most of the South Galaxy.

Yeah, but he's far overrated. There are idiots out there who think he can beat Superman, Galactus, Super Buu with Gohan & Gotenks absorbed, and even God.

He can beat Super Buu with Gohan absorbed. By feats.

Yeah but i would say Majin Buu ( Gohan Buu absorbed is deffinately more powerful) if you count Broly second comming, Gohan kinda managed to holf of Broly for a time by himself, Ultiamte Gohan got the shit kicked out of him bu Gotenks Buu, after Buu revealed he had only been toyign with gohan!! Buus words after absorbing ultimate gohan" Awsome, i have much more strength than i did before" !!
Plus since Broly is a non-canon character u can count Gohan Buus Universe destroying !!

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Yes, and with consumate ease I might add, but, Majin Buu onwards? I doubt it... But SS2 Gohan BARELY managed to win, Brolly is stronger than a SS2?

I put Borly at an equivelant of a very high end SSJ2, maybe in transition to SSJ3 like Trunks and Vegeta where bitween SSJ and SSJ2.

Broly however, does have one distinct advantage over any other saiyan of the class... His powers NEVER stop growing, even when injured... His power level never stopped jumping for some reason, the only time it lessened was during the time bitween when Goku defeated him, and when he reawakened on earth...

uk that broly had to get rid of some of his power cause he said he was overloading and realeased all of that energy that almost took out that planet. Broly always held bac to torture Goku. There would be nothing that could touch him if he decided to stop bullshitting and try

tue, broly was merely toying with the z fighters, hence why goku asked for a hanycap haha

When did it ever say Brolly or any other any DBZ character could destroy the universe with one move? Brolly went to planet to planet blowing up planets. Even Freeze could do that but anyway any true Super Saiyan 2 character should be stronger than Brolly.

I always had Broly right below a Super Saiyan 2, maybe around perfect Cell's level. Destroying a planet is something a lot of characters below SS1 could do, but Broly did it with frightening ease.

Id say Broly beats a ssj2 !!!
Anyone who can take 4 Super Saiyans and Piccolo at the same time, is pretty badass !!

Broly vs Hatachyack, thats what i wanna see !!!

Originally posted by llagrok
I always had Broly right below a Super Saiyan 2, maybe around perfect Cell's level. Destroying a planet is something a lot of characters below SS1 could do, but Broly did it with frightening ease. Broly by feats is above anyone at all in DBZ.

nobody is stronger than broly he too powerful

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Broly by feats is above anyone at all in DBZ.

Bad statement, I guess feat wise that kid buu is more powerful then super buu that absorbed everyone including gohun. Everyone aint a maniac like brolly, everyone just dont go around destroying galaxies. I put him at super saiyan 2, nothing more.

Originally posted by beast1234
nobody is stronger than broly he too powerful

Goku at the end of dbz would f... brolly up.

Originally posted by carver9
Bad statement, I guess feat wise that kid buu is more powerful then super buu that absorbed everyone including gohun. Everyone aint a maniac like brolly, everyone just dont go around destroying galaxies. I put him at super saiyan 2, nothing more. Only Kid Buu, who is a maniac, moreso than Broly, could only destroy a planet ten times over, a blast Goku and Vegeta could not stop.

Think before you post next time.

Majin Buu is the most phshycopathic DBZ character there is, true broly is insane!! but buu is anamalistic about fighting, and totally outta control..
plus i dotn care what anyoen says both Buu and Broly are galaxy destroyers
Buu universe with gohan/piccolo/goten and trunsk absorbed. !!

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Broly by feats is above anyone at all in DBZ.

I assumed that destroying a planet was something everyone with a power level of like 20 or 30k ++ was capable of.

Originally posted by llagrok
I assumed that destroying a planet was something everyone with a power level of like 20 or 30k ++ was capable of.

...Broly destroyed a Galaxy !!
...that billions of Stars/Planets....

Then again So did Buu, Bojack...

But yeah it takes an attack with a power level of around 20,000-23,000 to Destroy a Planet so when broyl was first born he could destroy half a planet !!

Bojack was merely said to have attempted to.

Buu only did in the filler anime which was directly contradicted by the manga.

Originally posted by llagrok
I assumed that destroying a planet was something everyone with a power level of like 20 or 30k ++ was capable of. First of all, in canon, the weakest character to one shot a planet is Freeza.

Second of all, Broly destroyed a galaxy, and has far greater durability than anyone in DBZ, and also has more strength.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
First of all, in canon, the weakest character to one shot a planet is Freeza.

Second of all, Broly destroyed a galaxy, and has far greater durability than anyone in DBZ, and also has more strength.

So I'm assuming Raditz is like the fastest character, because he's the only one who's ever caught a bullet? Broly's destructive feats are in the lead obviously but what was so great about his strength? Took him some time to take out a pack of super saiyans.

Originally posted by llagrok
So I'm assuming Raditz is like the fastest character, because he's the only one who's ever caught a bullet? Broly's destructive feats are in the lead obviously but what was so great about his strength? Took him some time to take out a pack of super saiyans. Master Roshi caught several machinegun bullets, and there are characters factually who are faster than Raditz and have better speed feats.

Well he demolished a cliff by lightly kicking down on it...

And Broly and both his movies are noncanon, and are not connected at all to the series, or any other movie.

As such, neither are the power of the characters.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Master Roshi caught several machinegun bullets, and there are characters factually who are faster than Raditz and have better speed feats.

Well he demolished a cliff by lightly kicking down on it...

And Broly and both his movies are noncanon, and are not connected at all to the series, or any other movie.

As such, neither are the power of the characters.

So we're not accepting Vegeta easily destroying a planet at around 20k power level, because that's uncanon. But we're accepting Broly's feats?

Originally posted by llagrok
So we're not accepting Vegeta easily destroying a planet at around 20k power level, because that's uncanon. But we're accepting Broly's feats? Well if the anime is taken into account, sure we can.

But Broly is by definition a noncanon character.

He doesn't actually exist in any DB canon but his own.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Well if the anime is taken into account, sure we can.

But Broly is by definition a noncanon character.

He doesn't actually exist in any DB canon but his own.

I see what you've been doing here

Originally posted by llagrok
I see what you've been doing here

...What? haermm

Broly's power is simply unbelievable, he is in my honest opinion the pinnacle of the DBZ villains canon or non-canon. His feats are still well...unmatched by other villains, and his capabilities are absolutely off the charts, what I find most interesting is that his power just simply continues to grow every time.

However, like ALL super off the wall villains, that is Brolly's weakness as an antagonist, he has the script that ultimately trumps him at the end. So regardless of how uber over the top he is, he would ultimately lose. Given obviously there are characters whom by now have potential to be much more powerful then Broly now (due to the fact that they have had time to continue to grow in power while Broly is already "dead".

To me, the Broly movies which I watched back in 93 when it was first shown in Japan, where arguably some of the most boring DBZ movies ever in existence. Simply for the fact that in these match ups, Broly was simply so significantly more powerful then the Z Fighter Gang that it became ridiculously lopsided.

I mean...Broly just completely dominated Goku and bunch so convincingly that the battle was pathetic to watch. To me, Broly is undisputed, and stands heads and shoulders above everyone else, he is to me, the only antagonist, who "had" he'd of appeared in the actual canon like say after Buu, however had power to continue growing would be able to contend with the most powerful forms Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan would have to offer.

As for the speed of DBZ characters, and some people stating that they couldn't travel FTL speed. I mean, I read the DBZ Mangas way, way, way, way, way, way back in the days when they where only japanese, and within the original japanese mangas of the DBZ.

You had guys like Raditz which dodged Piccolo's Special Beam Canon which was clearly stated at the time to travel at the speed of light. So, it brings me to mind, if someone at this time period such as Raditz was already capable of such feats...how couldn't any of the other DBZ characters (Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Trunks, Goten, Piccolo, etc, etc all come to mind) not achieve it in greater forms by the end of DBZ.

Reasons why in the anime of DBZ especially you have them flying 203948230942809 years is simply for plot reasons, this is not a form of showing that "well, since it took them so many episodes to get to spot, they couldn't fly FTL speed, or obtain".

That's just incorrect, remember, that at the time, the DBZ manga was very new, and the anime wanted to follow the manga, so they would prolong things and add fillers just to stall so the manga could catch up. Flying was one of those prolonged courses that was used within the anime.

Close to the beginning of the DBZ series, characters where moving so fast that even the human eye couldn't catch them. Not to mention, Goku's Instant Transmission puts speed to shame, as again, when reading the japanese manga DBZ of Cell when he first saw Goku utilizing it. Stating that it was Instant, which completely shocked and threw off Cell, so to me, the speed of the DBZ characters by the end is much greater then that of FTL.

I apologize if I kinda went off topic, however at times, it boggles my mind that some people would actually try to "downgrade" DBZ characters...seriously, these are some of the most ridiculous manga characters ever conceived...I mean seriously...Goku fighting ALL of the greatest martial artist from all the universes in the afterlife, and continuing to train to become more powerful...even killing them isn't enough.

Broly>All other Antagonist, not just in feats, but also the mere fact that he's a Saiyan gives him a stronger connection to the main protagonist characters of the series, instead of some alien/creature from outer space or created from some cells or magic or what not.

Do all of your posts have a two paragraph minimum limit?


edit- Do you think Goku could beat Superman?

Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
Do all of your posts have a two paragraph minimum limit?


edit- Do you think Goku could beat Superman?

1. Yes, I don't like to clog it with a big blob, just my taste of course.

2. Yes, I do, however I won't go beyond that, since this isn't a VS thread and I don't want to turn it into one, especially another Goku vs Superman thread which has been done over a trillion times over already.

Originally posted by JustFrame
1. Yes, I don't like to clog it with a big blob, just my taste of course.

I'm just messin around. It doesn't bother me. It's funny.



No, JF.. no0o0o0o0o0o... you were a herald of light in such a dark forum...

Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
I'm just messin around. It doesn't bother me. It's funny.

No biggie, I wasn't flipping at your comment either

Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
No, JF.. no0o0o0o0o0o... you were a herald of light in such a dark forum...

However again, not a VS thread, and I don't want it to become one. If you think Superman is better, then that's your motto, however I strongly believe Goku is far more potent.

Also, lol, I am the Light and the Dark, YinYang man, that way you can have both pieces of the pie

Goku would be killed in one punch by Superman and it would be on accident.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Goku would be killed in one punch by Superman and it would be on accident.

in most cases, yes:

SM vs goku: superman kills him by blinking.

SM vs goku ss2: eh, still a murder

SM vs goku ss3: SM has to actually try this fight, but still SM wins.

SM vs goku ss4: now this would be a good match.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Master Roshi caught several machinegun bullets, and there are characters factually who are faster than Raditz and have better speed feats.

Well he demolished a cliff by lightly kicking down on it...

And Broly and both his movies are noncanon, and are not connected at all to the series, or any other movie.

As such, neither are the power of the characters.
i thought all broly had was a movie? if all he has is a movie, then all of his powers are noncanon, and there is no point of this thread. but if he has been in or originated in something different than a movie and in that brolys real powers are shown, then we will go with those powers being they stronger or weaker than they are in the movie. so can someone please clarify what broly originated in?

No it would not.

Superman is faster, stronger, and more durable than any version of Goku.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
No it would not.

Superman is faster, stronger, and more durable than any version of Goku.

I would argue this to the core, however it's been done over 23094823094832 times, and yes, I would use the official DBZ Manga, not the Eng trans Manga as the source.

However the faster, I disagree (Superman does not fight at Goku's speed, and IT>Speed), stronger, I can agree Supes has done some crazy stuff, durability, I edge it over the Supes, but Goku's no push over period, energy channeling Goku destroys him by a landslide, intelligence when it comes to fighting, Goku completely and utterly destroys Superman, Goku's weakness is that he's gullible when it doesn't pertain to fighting, Superman's weakness is Kryptonite, even a mere human can ggpo him with that.

Yet again, please, lets not make this another Goku vs Superman fight, I've stated reasons on other forums other this on more then one occasion. This thread pertains to Broly, so keep it at that.

This is not a Superman vs. Goku thread, geez. I don't how how it turned that way, but can we please just drop the subject immediately before a 100 - page - long ridiculous argument occurs?

Well will the Anime Fighters vs. American Superheroes be a good place?

mystic gohan would stomp brolly

Mystic Gohan, SSJ3 Goku, Super Buu (Gohan Absorbed), Vegito, Gogeta, etc.

The fact that a SSJ1 Vegetto was omfgwtfpwning Mystic Buu is enough reason for me to believe he is stronger than Broly.

Heck, Omega Shenron would be strong enough to beat Broly in his peak!
A SSJ3 or SSJ4 Vegetto would turn him into molecules.

anyone at ss3 gokus lvl or higher can beat broly.

Ive never seen Brolly go up against a SSJ2. We've seen him against a Super Saiyan 1. Goku needed the power of all the z fighters to beat Brolly and he was still at SSJ1. A super saiyan 2 is powerful enough to take down Cell and he had the ability to regenerate. Gohan went up against a powered up Perfect Cell(almost the equivalent of an SSJ2 Gohan), he was in his injured state and he managed to defeat him with a one handed Kamehameha with know one giving him any energy whatsoever.

brolly is hella overrated

buu would beat the shit out of him

Originally posted by atv2
Ive never seen Brolly go up against a SSJ2. We've seen him against a Super Saiyan 1. Goku needed the power of all the z fighters to beat Brolly and he was still at SSJ1. A super saiyan 2 is powerful enough to take down Cell and he had the ability to regenerate. Gohan went up against a powered up Perfect Cell(almost the equivalent of an SSJ2 Gohan), he was in his injured state and he managed to defeat him with a one handed Kamehameha with know one giving him any energy whatsoever.

He went up against Gohan at SSJ2, as you can tell by the style of hair in Second Coming, but Broly had the advantage here, since he wasn't as strong as he was during the Cell Games when he fought Cell.

In Movie 10, Gohan went up against Brolly. He was standing toe to toe with him and he did not even power up while Brolly was in his Super Saiyan State. If we can recall right, he went through a near death experience and Saiyans grow stronger after they recover from serious injury. Gohan on the other hand has been out of training for 7 years and as a result, he grew weaker than he was when he fought Cell which probably made it more difficult for him to reach SSJ2. In that round, Brolly transformed to his USSJ form and it only took Three SSJ1's to defeat him(A Mastered SSJ1 Goku, A weakened SSJ Gohan, and a freshly new SSJ1 Goten)

A mastered Super Saiyan Goku(?), A Super Saiyan 2 Goku, Gohan and Vegeta, Majin Vegeta, A Super Saiyan 3 Goku and Gotenks, Mystic Gohan, Gogeta, and Vegito. Yeah, I'd say that's more than enough to pound Brolly.

Originally posted by Darth Raizen
He went up against Gohan at SSJ2, as you can tell by the style of hair in Second Coming, but Broly had the advantage here, since he wasn't as strong as he was during the Cell Games when he fought Cell.

That's the way his hair looked in SSJ1 too. Gohan never transformed to a SSJ2 in Movie 10.

Originally posted by atv2
A mastered Super Saiyan Goku(?), A Super Saiyan 2 Goku, Gohan and Vegeta, Majin Vegeta, A Super Saiyan 3 Goku and Gotenks, Mystic Gohan, Gogeta, and Vegito. Yeah, I'd say that's more than enough to pound Brolly.

lol mystic gohan could do it himself

Originally posted by atv2
That's the way his hair looked in SSJ1 too. Gohan never transformed to a SSJ2 in Movie 10.

Actually, the hair differs.

This is Gohan at SSJ1

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a134/MysticSwordsman/GohanSuperSaiyanFightingStance.jpg

I kinda wish people would look at the context of things and understand wtf canon is so then they would actually know what the hell they are talking about.

Broly's movies are canon to nothing but themselves, so the characters in the movies(Goku, Gohan, etc.) are not canon to the canon versions of themselves, and as such anything done in the movie or any forms are not present to the canon DBZ hierarchy of power, and Broly is not as well.

So, Gohan being SSJ2 or not(he was, btw) is no real indication of who is stronger.

Now, Broly's feats in DBZ, are second to absolutely no one in DBZ.

Broly destroyed almost an entire galaxy. No one else in canon DBZ has(Buu might have in filler, but it could also be interpreted as destroying them over time).

Broly's durability is freak. Able to withstand a full force Kamehameha inches away, and what it took to kill him was enormous. Three Super Kamehamehas along with the power of his own blast(at least planet destroying) actually had to send him through the ENTIRE sun, and he was only disintegrated when his heart exploded, which means his powerlevel which is what gave him his durability was turned to nothing.

Broly is very strong, able to destroy a large cliff by lightly kicking down on it, Goku SSJ2 in canon was able to raise a cliff with effort, Broly crushed one with ease.

Broly is fairly fast, able to dodge Piccolo, Trunk's, Goku's, and Gohan's attacks from a standing position with ease.

Broly is fairly versatile with his blasts I would like to point out as well, exhibiting great control over them.

By feats, Broly is second to none.