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Pyron and Nosgoth with all of there abilities.
vs
Dark Titan and Jedah with all of there abilities.
Which team takes it?

Nosgoth? Is that not the timeguy from LOK?

What is up with all these Pyron threads popping up all of a sudden?

I do not know. It is the resurrection of classical debatecharacters all over again Kain, Pyron, Jedah, Sephiroth. Good old gang.


I think most agreed that our Dark Titan in question was more than competent enough to deal with Pyron. Which is my thought exactly in the matter. Jedah I know of, but for the same reason that I do not think Kain can not beat Pyron by attacking the soul, I do not think Jedah can win by going for Pyrons soul.

He is of course not a necessary combatant since the planet will probably be destroyed very early in the fight. So it comes down to a fight between the two (Or three depending on who Nosgoth is) that can maneuver and fight in space. While Jedah is an impressive guy, he is not quite the outer space combatant. I do not think he can fly in any way, so he would just be floating there. Assuming of course that the destruction of the planet did not kill him.


So this fight would be :Pyron and Nosgoth Vs. Dark Titan: or :Pyron Vs. Dark Titan:

If Nosgoth is a time manipulator, he probably wins. If not, I would be so bold as to say Dark Titan wins.

Nosogoth is basically the entire LOK universe, including Kain, Sargeras is the only interesting being here, I think Pyron and the combined might of Nosgoth and Jedah could destroy Sargeras. In pure power I think Pyron>Old God easily

Sargeras held a closing portal open with nothing but physical force, did he not? That has to count for something.

I dont know, depends on the overall weight of the portal but he is by no means anywhere near the size of Pyron, Pyrons size alone is over a Gas giant size or so jaxx would say, his physical power would overpower Sargerus easily

problem with Sarg he has very few feats that describe his speciifc abilities, sure he can incinerate the land around him but it doesnt say much on his endurance or else.

Considering he made Archimonde nigh indestructable with a snap of his finger, I am pretty sure he has gone all out with his own endurance Did not mean that Sargeras was superior Pyron in strength. Merely that he had shown impressive strength.

What claims it as nigh indestructable? what has Archimonde proven himself against?

Either way the Dark Titan has still not actually shown any real endurance, I dont remember how the story is currently, its changed a few times, does Argewyn still destroy his avatar? I remember him being damaged, obviously he is outright annhialted in his end, so he is destructable.#

But as I say, its difficult to determine his power, its higher than many but we dont know specfics like his overall survivability, resistances to elemental powers or to soul devouring or to enrergy attacks in general

Against Malorne...

A Avatar that was meant to be destroyed.

I wouldn't try and mess with Sargeras Soul when the Natherizim adept in soul control and manipulation was unable to effect him. As for the powers of elements only a very strong level of Nature has shown having a effect on Archimonde then think about Sargeras against which Archimonde is nothing...

But it was actually shown to be indestructable? or stated to be such?


Either way that doesnt make it any less an embaressment, also who says it was "meant" to be destroye,d it may be part of Sargerus' plan but an Avatar is a physical form of a being, thus it could simply be Sargerus himself anyway even if it is an Avatar.


I dont know about nothing, they claim the Eredar are only limited by their minds does it not? and imo Kiljaeden has certainly shown himself beyond Sargerus in intellect.

Originally posted by Burning thought
But it was actually shown to be indestructable? or stated to be such?


Either way that doesnt make it any less an embaressment, also who says it was "meant" to be destroye,d it may be part of Sargerus' plan but an Avatar is a physical form of a being, thus it could simply be Sargerus himself anyway even if it is an Avatar.


I dont know about nothing, they claim the Eredar are only limited by their minds does it not? and imo Kiljaeden has certainly shown himself beyond Sargerus in intellect.

- In matter of facts, it was. Archimonde was by narrators said to have impervious skin. The only ever recorded damage inflicted on him is nature damage, and at all times a massive extent.

- Sargeras took a dive. He was playing Aegwynn the whole time. She never had a chance. She had lost even before the fight begun, but had he not put up a fight she would have grown suspicious. He had his avatar to engage Aegwynn with the sole purpose of losing in order to get to Azeroth from the inside. It really was meant to be destroyed.

- No. The gift of Sargeras was limited only by the minds of Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden. The Eredar developed a sort of spell however that was supposively limitless, depending on the caster.

Originally posted by Becci
- In matter of facts, it was. Archimonde was by narrators said to have impervious skin. The only ever recorded damage inflicted on him is nature damage, and at all times a massive extent.

- Sargeras took a dive. He was playing Aegwynn the whole time. She never had a chance. She had lost even before the fight begun, but had he not put up a fight she would have grown suspicious. He had his avatar to engage Aegwynn with the sole purpose of losing in order to get to Azeroth from the inside. It really was meant to be destroyed.

- No. The gift of Sargeras was limited only by the minds of Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden. The Eredar developed a sort of spell however that was supposively limitless.

It was supposively limetless. It might not be limitless.

Originally posted by Wil7
It was supposively limetless. It might not be limitless.

Not sure where you want to get with that post.

The Man'Ari Eredar has a lot of magicians. Even if it is not limitless and only very powerful, it is impressive enough since the Eredar have very high number of casters. As a sample of a paramount spell (The one supposively limitless) is the attack Archimonde developed which is powerful enough to kill someone by merely pointing your finger at him. Not injure. Not weaken. Kill.

Originally posted by C. C. Cowgirl!
I do not know. It is the resurrection of classical debatecharacters all over again Kain, Pyron, Jedah, Sephiroth. Good old gang.


I think most agreed that our Dark Titan in question was more than competent enough to deal with Pyron. Which is my thought exactly in the matter. Jedah I know of, but for the same reason that I do not think Kain can not beat Pyron by attacking the soul, I do not think Jedah can win by going for Pyrons soul.

He is of course not a necessary combatant since the planet will probably be destroyed very early in the fight. So it comes down to a fight between the two (Or three depending on who Nosgoth is) that can maneuver and fight in space. While Jedah is an impressive guy, he is not quite the outer space combatant. I do not think he can fly in any way, so he would just be floating there. Assuming of course that the destruction of the planet did not kill him.


So this fight would be :Pyron and Nosgoth Vs. Dark Titan: or :Pyron Vs. Dark Titan:

If Nosgoth is a time manipulator, he probably wins. If not, I would be so bold as to say Dark Titan wins. 1. Pyron has better feats than Sargeras, and even going by speculation is greater than Sargeras. Jedah is a great deal greater than Kain when it comes to devouring souls, but I agree you are right, Bishamon who can steal souls with a single slash of his sword could not take Pyron's soul.

2. Ummm...Jedah actually flys while fighting in game. He floats above the ground, and like many DSers can fly.

Nosgoth is literally the entire planet LOK takes place in.

Pyron DESTROYS Sargeras, he is a great deal faster, stronger, more powerful, nearly as versatile if not as, bigger, and maybe even more experienced(Pyron has 200,000,000 million years of planet eating and star eating at his belt, what does Sargeras have?)

So the Warcraft characters cannot harm Sargeras? Big deal, Pyron is on a whole other maginitude of power compared to anyone he has fought.

Pyron might just make Sargeras into a fancy ring if Sargeras is lucky.

Becci is da shit flirt

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
1. Pyron has better feats than Sargeras, and even going by speculation is greater than Sargeras. Jedah is a great deal greater than Kain when it comes to devouring souls, but I agree you are right, Bishamon who can steal souls with a single slash of his sword could not take Pyron's soul.

2. Ummm...Jedah actually flys while fighting in game. He floats above the ground, and like many DSers can fly.

Nosgoth is literally the entire planet LOK takes place in.

Pyron DESTROYS Sargeras, he is a great deal faster, stronger, more powerful, nearly as versatile if not as, bigger, and maybe even more experienced(Pyron has 200,000,000 million years of planet eating and star eating at his belt, what does Sargeras have?)

So the Warcraft characters cannot harm Sargeras? Big deal, Pyron is on a whole other maginitude of power compared to anyone he has fought.

Pyron might just make Sargeras into a fancy ring if Sargeras is lucky.

1. Pyron has shown more feats than Sargeras, but not necessarily better. But if Sargeras is as powerful as the books and Blizzard indicate him to be, a full forced Sargeras would handily defeat Pyron. Since Sargeras is the majority of times spoken of indirectly, it is hard to simply say 'he can do this'm 'he can do that' since we have not really seen much of him.

2. I think what she meant was that Jedah is no actual factor in this fight. Which I agree with.

3. When dealing with characters such as Sargeras, size does not matter much. Nor does speed. In Pyron's case, neither does versatility. How long Sargeras has been active is unknown. It has never been announced. Only the words 'countless years' has been used when speaking of the Pantheon. Could be 200.000.000 years. Could be 2.000.000. We do not know, but I fail to see how one with 2.000.000 such as Sargeras would not be sufficient to fight Pyron anyway.

4. Yes, he is of a whole other power magnitude. So is Sargeras to anyone Pyron has fought. This argument of yours is weak and just like the experience one, absolutely pointlessless. It is an A>B>C argument on the top of all things.

5. Probably. If he against all odds defeat Sargeras, he most certainly would like to remember it forever. So a ring is a good choice.

Originally posted by Becci
1. Pyron has shown more feats than Sargeras, but not necessarily better. But if Sargeras is as powerful as the books and Blizzard indicate him to be, a full forced Sargeras would handily defeat Pyron. Since Sargeras is the majority of times spoken of indirectly, it is hard to simply say 'he can do this'm 'he can do that' since we have not really seen much of him.

2. I think what she meant was that Jedah is no actual factor in this fight. Which I agree with.

3. When dealing with characters such as Sargeras, size does not matter much. Nor does speed. In Pyron's case, neither does versatility. How long Sargeras has been active is unknown. It has never been announced. Only the words 'countless years' has been used when speaking of the Pantheon. Could be 200.000.000 years. Could be 2.000.000. We do not know, but I fail to see how one with 2.000.000 such as Sargeras would not be sufficient to fight Pyron anyway.

4. Yes, he is of a whole other power magnitude. So is Sargeras to anyone Pyron has fought. This argument of yours is weak and just like the experience one, absolutely pointlessless. It is an A>B>C argument on the top of all things.

5. Probably. If he against all odds defeat Sargeras, he most certainly would like to remember it forever. So a ring is a good choice. 1. So name some feats better than Pyron's? So because Sargeras lacks feats, we assume he would beat Pyron? Lol.

2. So destroying a dimension which has a landmass several hundreds of times larger than Earth, a sea that surrouds the landmass, and whatever is beyond the walls surrounding the sea point to Jedah being a non-factor?

3. So...Sargeras beats Pyron, simply by doing it? Awesome argument. So even though Pyron holds nearly all advantages, Sargeras wins? And in those years, Pyron has absorbed the power of(And I quote) "Countless galaxies," but Sargeras>countless galaxies right?

4. You missed the entire point. Sargeras has proven to be immune to anyone he has fought, who do not possess so much as a fraction of Pyron's power, but we must assume he is immune to Pyron's attacks too? No-Limit fallacies at their finest. It is not an A>B>C argument, I am not arguing that because Pyron>People Sargeras fights he wins, but that since the people that cannot hurt Sargeras are<<<<<<<<<<<Pyron in power, Pyron can hurt him. You take narrative hyperbole too seriously, I can quite easily find quotes stating Pyron was omnipotent before he powered down to fight the Darkstalkers, but I don't, cause it is just narrative hyperbole.

5. Against all odds? Evidence points to Pyron dominating Sargeras with ease going by those magical butterflys I call feats. And Pyron can absorb Earth and make it into a ring, so yeah, he can do it to Sargeras.

I agree with jaxx, which is rare, Sargeras has very few feats especially if your comparing ihm to Pyron, what are you basing Sargs power off of? the Old Gods who are beings of very few real feats of power themselves were able to kill titans, Sargerus himself has been defeated by Azeroth, his intellect is little in comparison to many of Azeroth and imo Pyron beats him in intellect, his power is nothing to Pyrons snce he has no feats to base his power on, the guys got nothing, hes defeated a few races most of which are cowards like the nethrezim, their not real fighters, just schemers, him defeating them is no mean feat, I wouldnt be surprised if Kain had their planet and dominated them uner his control given time.

Kain could simply make Jedah also attack Sarg using inspire hate powers or spirit wracks, using repel shield he could refelect any spells Sargerus uses against Kain back on him thus its lielyl Sargs own powers, since he chooses to use them would also effect him disaserously, also assumptions aside and going only by what we know for definite, Sarg is fair game to a incapaication time freezing projectile.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
1. So name some feats better than Pyron's? So because Sargeras lacks feats, we assume he would beat Pyron? Lol.

2. So destroying a dimension which has a landmass several hundreds of times larger than Earth, a sea that surrouds the landmass, and whatever is beyond the walls surrounding the sea point to Jedah being a non-factor?

3. So...Sargeras beats Pyron, simply by doing it? Awesome argument. So even though Pyron holds nearly all advantages, Sargeras wins? And in those years, Pyron has absorbed the power of(And I quote) "Countless galaxies," but Sargeras>countless galaxies right?

4. You missed the entire point. Sargeras has proven to be immune to anyone he has fought, who do not possess so much as a fraction of Pyron's power, but we must assume he is immune to Pyron's attacks too? No-Limit fallacies at their finest. It is not an A>B>C argument, I am not arguing that because Pyron>People Sargeras fights he wins, but that since the people that cannot hurt Sargeras are<<<<<<<<<<<Pyron in power, Pyron can hurt him. You take narrative hyperbole too seriously, I can quite easily find quotes stating Pyron was omnipotent before he powered down to fight the Darkstalkers, but I don't, cause it is just narrative hyperbole.

5. Against all odds? Evidence points to Pyron dominating Sargeras with ease going by those magical butterflys I call feats. And Pyron can absorb Earth and make it into a ring, so yeah, he can do it to Sargeras.

1. Better is a matter of definition. And I never said that we should assume that because of his lack of feats he could beat Pyron. Claiming that was my intentions of the point I brought up is rather ignorant. You were the one who brought up speculations, not I. I merely continued on the same point.

2. Then it is settled. Sargeras moves himself to another dimension, has Jedah destroy the dimension Pyron and Nosgoth are in and then the two are declared winners. No problems there. If he can not destroy the dimension, then no, he is no real factor. Because for all I have heard of Jedah, his dimension bust and his soul suck are his strongest feats. Since his soul suck is not much of an option here, we will just have him bust the dimension and make Sargeras and himself winners.


3. You read, write, post and then think, dont you? You actually think that I am a pathetic little fangirl that says Sargeras wins simply because 'he does'? I know you are justified to think so when it comes to certain cases, but I honestly thought I had given a better impression of me to you and others than that troughout the many debates I have participated in. To say the least, I am disappointed to hear you indirectly claim me to be nothing but a fangirl and on the top of all things, bring sarcasm into everything.

I merely gave my opinion in a response to your point, so I do not know what you think gives you the right to try mock me.

I honestly do not want to dignify this point with a decent reply, but I will do so anyway. Magic. That is what I believe Sargeras has over Pyron, and it is what I believe will have him defeat Pryon. It may be true that in time, Pyron could break what is supposed to be the indestructable body of Sargeras, and might be so that Pyron is more endurant than Sargeras, but not all strength come from muscles.


4. Have I as much as one single time brought up Sargeras immunity in this thread? What the heck are you doing, Dark-Jaxx? I have not brought up any narrator claiming Sargeras physical indestructability and I never intended to do so. If this is how you debate nowdays, you have turned out as much a disappointment as Burning Thought. I never even declined that any people who has fought Sargeras was even close to Pyron in power. In fact, I claimed the very opposite, that Pyron is on a very different level than any Sargeras has fought.

5. Evidence? What evidence? You mean evidence such as Sargeras teleporting away and fights Pyron from a seperate dimension, out of the giants reach. Or maybe the lack of evidence that Pyron has any sort of soul resistance, which could result in Sargeras possessing Pyron's body and taking him out over time. Or maybe evidence such as even though Sargeras body is destroyed, he can still exist as nothing but a spirit and even then still remain active in combat? Maybe would you like some evidence of Sargeras capability to preform actual BFR?

Originally posted by Burning thought
I agree with jaxx, which is rare, Sargeras has very few feats especially if your comparing ihm to Pyron, what are you basing Sargs power off of? the Old Gods who are beings of very few real feats of power themselves were able to kill titans, Sargerus himself has been defeated by Azeroth, his intellect is little in comparison to many of Azeroth and imo Pyron beats him in intellect, his power is nothing to Pyrons snce he has no feats to base his power on, the guys got nothing, hes defeated a few races most of which are cowards like the nethrezim, their not real fighters, just schemers, him defeating them is no mean feat, I wouldnt be surprised if Kain had their planet and dominated them uner his control given time.

He has countless more feats than Lich King, yet you debate in benefit of Lich King numerous times against many foes, many very powerful and that has feats of their own. You are not in a position to say a character can not be in a debate for not having sufficient solid feats to back everything up.

Originally posted by Becci
1. Better is a matter of definition. And I never said that we should assume that because of his lack of feats he could beat Pyron. Claiming that was my intentions of the point I brought up is rather ignorant. You were the one who brought up speculations, not I. I merely continued on the same point.

2. Then it is settled. Sargeras moves himself to another dimension, has Jedah destroy the dimension Pyron and Nosgoth are in and then the two are declared winners. No problems there. If he can not destroy the dimension, then no, he is no real factor. Because for all I have heard of Jedah, his dimension bust and his soul suck are his strongest feats. Since his soul suck is not much of an option here, we will just have him bust the dimension and make Sargeras and himself winners.


3. You read, write, post and then think, dont you? You actually think that I am a pathetic little fangirl that says Sargeras wins simply because 'he does'? I know you are justified to think so when it comes to certain cases, but I honestly thought I had given a better impression of me to you and others than that troughout the many debates I have participated in. To say the least, I am disappointed to hear you indirectly claim me to be nothing but a fangirl and on the top of all things, bring sarcasm into everything.

I merely gave my opinion in a response to your point, so I do not know what you think gives you the right to try mock me.

I honestly do not want to dignify this point with a decent reply, but I will do so anyway. Magic. That is what I believe Sargeras has over Pyron, and it is what I believe will have him defeat Pryon. It may be true that in time, Pyron could break what is supposed to be the indestructable body of Sargeras, and might be so that Pyron is more endurant than Sargeras, but not all strength come from muscles.


4. Have I as much as one single time brought up Sargeras immunity in this thread? What the heck are you doing, Dark-Jaxx? I have not brought up any narrator claiming Sargeras physical indestructability and I never intended to do so. If this is how you debate nowdays, you have turned out as much a disappointment as Burning Thought. I never even declined that any people who has fought Sargeras was even close to Pyron in power. In fact, I claimed the very opposite, that Pyron is on a very different level than any Sargeras has fought.

5. Evidence? What evidence? You mean evidence such as Sargeras teleporting away and fights Pyron from a seperate dimension, out of the giants reach. Or maybe the lack of evidence that Pyron has any sort of soul resistance, which could result in Sargeras possessing Pyron's body and taking him out over time. Or maybe evidence such as even though Sargeras body is destroyed, he can still exist as nothing but a spirit and even then still remain active in combat? Maybe would you like some evidence of Sargeras capability to preform actual BFR? Becci, I would like to apologise for my rudeness and mockery in the previous post, I did not mean to imply you were a fangirl or that you were stupid.

1. But what feats are better than Pyron's?

2. Only Pyron himself is about as large and more powerful than the dimension Jedah destroyed. And...Pretty much everyone and their mother can travel dimensions in Nosgoth, as can Pyron, hell, Pyron can see past dimensional walls.

3. I did not mean to imply you were a fangirl, and for that I am sorry.

You are right, I do not.

But here is the thing, magic is a term that gets thrown around alot, but all it truly is is a title. If one character can do most of the same things a character who uses magic to do it can, why should the magic-user be treated superior? The idea that Pyron is nothing more than a really big muscle-bound brute is a gross oversimplification and is highly inaccurate, he has much more versatility and intelligence than he is given credit for.

4. I assumed that since you were bringing up Arich's durability, you were using it to assert that Sargeras was invulnerable. But what durability feats does he really have out of curiosity?

5. Pyron can not only go to other dimensions, he can use his powers from other dimensions as well, such as telepathy. Pyron has outright dominated Bishamon, who could not touch Pyron's soul. But how will Sargeras fight Pyron as a spirit when he is not able to possess him? BFR how?

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Becci, I would like to apologise for my rudeness and mockery in the previous post, I did not mean to imply you were a fangirl or that you were stupid.

1. But what feats are better than Pyron's?

2. Only Pyron himself is about as large and more powerful than the dimension Jedah destroyed. And...Pretty much everyone and their mother can travel dimensions in Nosgoth, as can Pyron, hell, Pyron can see past dimensional walls.

3. I did not mean to imply you were a fangirl, and for that I am sorry.

You are right, I do not.

But here is the thing, magic is a term that gets thrown around alot, but all it truly is is a title. If one character can do most of the same things a character who uses magic to do it can, why should the magic-user be treated superior? The idea that Pyron is nothing more than a really big muscle-bound brute is a gross oversimplification and is highly inaccurate, he has much more versatility and intelligence than he is given credit for.

4. I assumed that since you were bringing up Arich's durability, you were using it to assert that Sargeras was invulnerable. But what durability feats does he really have out of curiosity?

5. Pyron can not only go to other dimensions, he can use his powers from other dimensions as well, such as telepathy. Pyron has outright dominated Bishamon, who could not touch Pyron's soul. But how will Sargeras fight Pyron as a spirit when he is not able to possess him? BFR how?

1. While Sargeras has never busted any planets, he has done some things that are impressive. Pyron may be raw power with some fancy options, but Sargeras is much more than a powerhouse.
- He created a new school of magic, which that alone shows his incredible powers.
- He with a snap of his fingers blessed two mortal beings with unlimited power, boundries being only within their own minds. - He has shown over and over again that he can use his spells even while not being in the same dimension.

While Pyron has better feats in his way, Sargeras has better feats in other ways. Sure they are not a match in their respective fields, but in the grand scheme, Sargeras is more potent.

2. Traveling between dimensions would not necessarily mean finding what they seek, or do so in time. Sargeras would run if he found running most suitable to the situation, and strike while keeping his distance. It is what he does. Or so says Shadow and Light. Sargeras will use dimensional doors to keep his distance, heal possible injuries whenever they occur and keep on attacking his advesaries. If a fight looks bad, he can always banish enemies from the field (BFR).

3. I know what Pyron is, and I know how overrated magic can be in many cases, but I do bring up magic in Sargeras case for a reason. He has a highly advanced telekinetical capability, but he can also absorb and manipulate energy. He has complete control over fire and heat, and complete immunity to fire and heat. He also has indirect indications of soul manipulation capabilities and very much direct feats of capability to possess powerful advesaries, and even so without them knowing. I just honestly can not imagine any more perfect forged charcter to actually beat Pyron. Not Kain, not Jedah, not Demitri, not KOS-MOS, not anyone more propriate than Sargeras

4. The only reason I brought up the Archimonde example, was because I was asked to. If you look at the post I quoted, you will see Burning Thought actually asking about Archimonde's endurance ever being stated.

The only durability feet he has, and a saddening feat it is, would be Brox swinging the axe into his leg and making a cut. I am aware that this feat is not exactly speaking in good for Sargeras, but with the exceptions of all the indestructable, immunity talk and such from sources that make references to Sargeras, the swing of Brox is the only time we have actually seen him take any sort of beating. The Sargeras Aegwynn fought was but an avatar, and can not be used as a sample of Sargeras true endurance.

So Sargeras only true endurance feat is him being cut in the leg by a green man with an overly-sized axe

5. Pyron traveling dimensions is news to me, as is the fact that Pyron has shown resilience to soul attacks. Sargeras BFR someone by more or less snap his finger, transfering his target to wherever he desire be it a different region, a different planet or a different dimension. This seems not to be a very useful ability against Pyron though, given the fact that he can travel dimensions.

Originally posted by Becci
1. While Sargeras has never busted any planets, he has done some things that are impressive. Pyron may be raw power with some fancy options, but Sargeras is much more than a powerhouse.
- He created a new school of magic, which that alone shows his incredible powers.
- He with a snap of his fingers blessed two mortal beings with unlimited power, boundries being only within their own minds. - He has shown over and over again that he can use his spells even while not being in the same dimension.

While Pyron has better feats in his way, Sargeras has better feats in other ways. Sure they are not a match in their respective fields, but in the grand scheme, Sargeras is more potent.

2. Traveling between dimensions would not necessarily mean finding what they seek, or do so in time. Sargeras would run if he found running most suitable to the situation, and strike while keeping his distance. It is what he does. Or so says Shadow and Light. Sargeras will use dimensional doors to keep his distance, heal possible injuries whenever they occur and keep on attacking his advesaries. If a fight looks bad, he can always banish enemies from the field (BFR).

3. I know what Pyron is, and I know how overrated magic can be in many cases, but I do bring up magic in Sargeras case for a reason. He has a highly advanced telekinetical capability, but he can also absorb and manipulate energy. He has complete control over fire and heat, and complete immunity to fire and heat. He also has indirect indications of soul manipulation capabilities and very much direct feats of capability to possess powerful advesaries, and even so without them knowing. I just honestly can not imagine any more perfect forged charcter to actually beat Pyron. Not Kain, not Jedah, not Demitri, not KOS-MOS, not anyone more propriate than Sargeras

4. The only reason I brought up the Archimonde example, was because I was asked to. If you look at the post I quoted, you will see Burning Thought actually asking about Archimonde's endurance ever being stated.

The only durability feet he has, and a saddening feat it is, would be Brox swinging the axe into his leg and making a cut. I am aware that this feat is not exactly speaking in good for Sargeras, but with the exceptions of all the indestructable, immunity talk and such from sources that make references to Sargeras, the swing of Brox is the only time we have actually seen him take any sort of beating. The Sargeras Aegwynn fought was but an avatar, and can not be used as a sample of Sargeras true endurance.

So Sargeras only true endurance feat is him being cut in the leg by a green man with an overly-sized axe

5. Pyron traveling dimensions is news to me, as is the fact that Pyron has shown resilience to soul attacks. Sargeras BFR someone by more or less snap his finger, transfering his target to wherever he desire be it a different region, a different planet or a different dimension. This seems not to be a very useful ability against Pyron though, given the fact that he can travel dimensions. 1. That is the thing though, Pyron is not a being of pure raw power, he has telepathy, matter and energy manipulation, creationism, Cosmic Awareness on beyond a galactic level, the power to see in the future(may only be a product of Cosmic Awareness though), among other things. Pyron can, without really doing anything from the look of it, convert Earth into a ring, he didn't grow and have the Earth orbit his finger like I originally thought, he literally remade Earth, without harming its life forms and all, as a ring.

2. But Sargeras cannot run forever, and in Nosgoth, there is only like three dimensions I think. Pyron is much faster than Sargeras however, can let most attacks phase right through him, and can destroy every world Sargeras flees to.

3. Has his TK affected someone of Pyron's vast size and strength? He has never absorbed as much energy as Pyron's body contains, or absorbed as much energy as Pyron has to my knowledge, and his control over flames IMO won't match Pyron's, a living Cosmic fire elemental. But Pyron's soul has shown resistance against a soul stealer. Thing is, many of Sargeras' powers are not useful against Pyron, and some of which Pyron has the same powers only to a higher level.

And KOS-MOS is an overrated and overhyped piece of shit.

4. Yeah...I admit I jumped the gun on that one.

.......Lol wut? Really?

That's...Well it is kinda sad.

5. If not stopped by Demitri, he WOULD have devoured Makai as well as Earth. He has shown resilience by not only beating Bishamon, doing it effortlessly. He did not even need to attack, he only needed to power up and his energies literally separated Bishamon from his armor, which is bound by body and even soul. So Pyron, in canon, has affected the soul of a fighter, and this was while mortal mind you, not full power. Yeah, I do not think said BFR would affect Pyron or most in LOK for that matter lol.

Originally posted by Becci
He has countless more feats than Lich King, yet you debate in benefit of Lich King numerous times against many foes, many very powerful and that has feats of their own. You are not in a position to say a character can not be in a debate for not having sufficient solid feats to back everything up.

I can, if you have any idea of the way I debate LK I usually announce beforehand my waiting for more evidence for LK and how he is undebatable, yet I contunie when you and Utrigos are invovled becaue both of you usually debate characters with few actual power designations thus turning the deabte into not what we KNOW them to have but into what we belive.

I know exactly how you debate Lich King. Which is why I wrote what I did.

good, well you should know then how I always discount using characters we have very little clue off, when we have our trivial debates on LK vs Kiljaeden for example it does not amount to much because the charactes are no fully known, we usually use statements and tip bits of info from other sources but nothing can outline them properly like most debatable characters can be, thus making the Dark titan in a thread against more detailed characters pointless.

Pointless? Is it pointless just because one character is tougher to debate than most other?

its pointless because you simply cannot debate it properly, if you dont know a beings specifics then you cannot prove it can win, therefore it is useless to debate the being in question.

Oh me oh my. The irony is Over 9,000.

Add in a factor ^9000

No its not, none of those things youve listed apart from ripping scales from a dragon are relvent when you look at the character, Sargeras is still unkown, because the things youve listed dont speak detailed on his actual powersl, what he can really do, what he actually does in a battle and how much he can really take from various things, if a small axe regardless of its nature power (none of those who enchanted it are near even Kiljaeden leauge, praps not even Archimonde) then obviously he has very little endurance especially to thel ikes of Pyron.

I did not call that more description than Kain's abilities. Didnt you read what I wrote? I called his way of combat more detailed, and I said that he probably has more abilities recorded than Kain ermm To me, it sounds like you are in denial. Tell me why he would not act the way he does in the RPG, in any other battle? And I did not write any of those lower paragraphs. It was Shadow and Light that described him as beyond comprehension. Not me.

weve seen all Kains way of combat with our own eyes so it doesnt have to be written detailed, more abilities, ime not so sure about that. In denial of what?

So far what can you debate Sarg with? what attacks would he use? finding a statement somewhere that says "he is very powerful" doesnt help him in a debate and its not an ability.

Because thats the gamepaly RPG, he wouldnt act like that anymore than Norgannon would use simple mage spells, most of those are simple spells the classes in WoW use, if a Titan uses those types of spells then they are pathetic beings who are overhyped even more than I thought so before, however I dont belive that is the way they would act, I think they would use powers we simply dont know yet, simple, which is why they are not so debatable.

Guessing at their ednurance just by gauging off their henchmen like Archiomonde or guessing their powers just becuase of something saying their "incredible power" or other statements of lack of detail.

If you truly belive that the RPG gameplay is the way the canon Sarg would likely fight I would be very surprised, if it is, then you must also Belelive Sarg loses this battle in an instant since none of those powers described will help him much.

Originally posted by C. C. Cowgirl!
nearly impervious to physical damage, is highly resistant to magical attacks, natural attacks are more powerful than other titans, totally immune to fire damage and fel damage, scorching everything in his path, body flames slowly increase the ambient temperature by up to fifty degrees in every direction for one thousand miles, enlarge person, displacement, haste, mage armor, shield, slow, identifies the most powerful, banished, domination, energy drain, blasphemy, power word stun, disintegrate, phantasmal killer , flame strike, quickened telekinesis, dimension door, heal, planar binding spells, summon monster spells

Care to tell me how exactly that is "WoW classes abilities"?

have you not played WoW? haste, slow, banishment, domnation (I think), energy drain, power words, flamestrike are all WoW powers, mainly gameplay powers in general, what does it say for Sylvanas in the same book? or is she in the MoM, ime sure it doesnt say in that book what it says she does in the canon novels?

Slow, Banishment, Domination, Flamestrike and Haste exist in the Warcraft universe and are very useful skills. Deal with it. What, should Sargeras not use slow and haste merely because he is better than others? Even though he is as powerful as he is, slow and haste are two basic skills that help against any advesaries. Just because skills he use exist in WoW does not mean he is some weakass caster. Draining the energies from an opponent is not a bad move, preventing them to use spells. To dominate a foe is not a very useless spell either. And next time you play WoW, look around you. There is no spell called: "Power Word Stun". Power Word is merely a spell spoken by tongue. Flame Strike has been used by characters than him, yes, but why would that mean he should not use it in battle? Fire is kinda his "thing"

Because surely a Titan would be using more powers many we wouldnt even know far far beyond anything Azeroth mages use simply, its ridiculous, Norgannon the master of magic isnt going to sit there casting Frostbolt, thats as silly as it sounds...

On norgannons it says he apprently escapes to safety with all the titans using Wish, I mean heavens above whos going to defeat the Pantheon for them to need to escape? then theres a load of gameplay in the same "combat" box, using the RPG gameplay isnt exactley useful in determining his canon fighting ability.

BT, I have never even seen proof that Sargeras is even planet sized...

What about the image where he has his sword in the planet? i think thats in this thread, the Titans build pieces of a planet with their hands however which leads me to belive they are usually less than planet sized because they scrape up rivers and create canyons etc etc

Originally posted by Burning thought
Because surely a Titan would be using more powers many we wouldnt even know far far beyond anything Azeroth mages use simply, its ridiculous, Norgannon the master of magic isnt going to sit there casting Frostbolt, thats as silly as it sounds...

On norgannons it says he apprently escapes to safety with all the titans using Wish, I mean heavens above whos going to defeat the Pantheon for them to need to escape? then theres a load of gameplay in the same "combat" box, using the RPG gameplay isnt exactley useful in determining his canon fighting ability.

Did it occur to you that maybe he did not use more powers because he does not have to? He is after all referred to as the most powerful entity in the universe. Does it surprise you so much that he use simple spells that enhance him and debuff opposition? Perhaps he does not NEED anything more?

As Becci has said in a previous thread, Norgannon and the boys are not taking combat into a habit. They are not the warrior type Much like how they made the aspects guardians and not warriors. Sargeras is something different. He was their warrior. He was the one getting corrupted. You can not use pantheon stuff on him, because he is no longer pantheon.

How is it not useful? The books are canon, so why should not a canon description be canon?

I say CC wins the argument on the grounds that she is hotter.

I can live with that shrug

Originally posted by C. C. Cowgirl!
Did it occur to you that maybe he did not use more powers because he does not have to? He is after all referred to as the most powerful entity in the universe. Does it surprise you so much that he use simple spells that enhance him and debuff opposition? Perhaps he does not NEED anything more?

As Becci has said in a previous thread, Norgannon and the boys are not taking combat into a habit. They are not the warrior type Much like how they made the aspects guardians and not warriors. Sargeras is something different. He was their warrior. He was the one getting corrupted. You can not use pantheon stuff on him, because he is no longer pantheon.

How is it not useful? The books are canon, so why should not a canon description be canon?

Sure..but that doesnt mean anything in a debate...you need specifics. Simply saying he must be so overpowering because he doesnt need anything more advanced doesnt help you in favour against Pyron, Nosgoth or Jedah.

That doesnt mean much either, since them not taking combat into a habit is neither here nor there in context with Sarg being powerful, he himself has a similiar combat gameplay role out that youve already posted, its just simple, if their the only specific abilities you can find for him then he will be douched by all in the thread. Especially by Pyron.

Because their "useless", they have hardly any information regarding what he would do in a canon situation, all they have is gameplay, thus their useless, since you cannot use gameplay, either way its a rule in this forum (a silly one imo) that only stuff said and shown in the actual games is canon nothing else.

Originally posted by Burning thought
No its not, none of those things youve listed apart from ripping scales from a dragon are relvent when you look at the character, Sargeras is still unkown, because the things youve listed dont speak detailed on his actual powersl, what he can really do, what he actually does in a battle and how much he can really take from various things, if a small axe regardless of its nature power (none of those who enchanted it are near even Kiljaeden leauge, praps not even Archimonde) then obviously he has very little endurance especially to thel ikes of Pyron.

Sorry but you said.



I showed that, the statement was vary far from the case we have a good clue of what exactly Sargeras is capable of accomplishe consideret that he is above both Archimonde Kil'Jaeden Mannaroth and his entire army combined.

What??? Elune the Goddess of the Earth almost Nature Magic incarnated is Close to Archimondes league??? She is above Archimonde did you miss the part where Achimonde couldn't break her shield around Tyranda? And it was Nature Magic that is the only thing that has shown capable of hurting the Dark Titan and his second in command, hell it toke the destruction of the World Tree (that is fused with the Well of Eternity the Well created from the original by the Titans) a immense powerful Natur Magical Charge to kill him, and Archimonde is a flea to Sargeras on all aspects...

Originally posted by Utrigita
Sorry but you said.



I showed that, the statement was vary far from the case we have a good clue of what exactly Sargeras is capable of accomplishe consideret that he is above both Archimonde Kil'Jaeden Mannaroth and his entire army combined.

What??? Elune the Goddess of the Earth almost Nature Magic incarnated is Close to Archimondes league??? She is above Archimonde did you miss the part where Achimonde couldn't break her shield around Tyranda? And it was Nature Magic that is the only thing that has shown capable of hurting the Dark Titan and his second in command, hell it toke the destruction of the World Tree (that is fused with the Well of Eternity the Well created from the original by the Titans) a immense powerful Natur Magical Charge to kill him, and Archimonde is a flea to Sargeras on all aspects...

Him being above them is not a clue to what he can do in a debate however, there are very few speicifc powers, simply knowing hes beyond his army doesnt mean much in a debate, you need specific endurances, what powers he definaltey has and cna use etc, in teh canon very few have been noted.

Shes beyond Titan league imo, but not in power to destroy, thus what I meant was that shes not in league with Sarg/Archi in destruction/damaging since she is a peaceful goddess.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Him being above them is not a clue to what he can do in a debate however, there are very few speicifc powers, simply knowing hes beyond his army doesnt mean much in a debate, you need specific endurances, what powers he definaltey has and cna use etc, in teh canon very few have been noted.

Oh yes it is, We know perfectly well what the Eredar Dreadlords Pitlords Archimonde Kil'Jaeden etc can perform and we know that all their power combined is nothing next to Sargeras the Army that is countless is nothing against it's masters power. I have already listed his Endurance it requires Natur Magic of extremely powerful calibre to injure Sargeras, do any of his opponents bring that to the field?

Originally posted by Burning thought
Shes beyond Titan league imo, but not in power to destroy, thus what I meant was that shes not in league with Sarg/Archi in destruction/damaging since she is a peaceful goddess.

Of cause she isn't about going around destroying, but I found it strange that now you label Elune at Titan level when you earlier said



One of those none was Elune, going by your logic Sargeras endurance would be off the charts considering that a being that is above the Titans is the only being capable of making a weapon that is capable of injuring him.

Originally posted by Utrigita
Oh yes it is, We know perfectly well what the Eredar Dreadlords Pitlords Archimonde Kil'Jaeden etc can perform and we know that all their power combined is nothing next to Sargeras the Army that is countless is nothing against it's masters power. I have already listed his Endurance it requires Natur Magic of extremely powerful calibre to injure Sargeras, do any of his opponents bring that to the field?



Of cause she isn't about going around destroying, but I found it strange that now you label Elune at Titan level when you earlier said



One of those none was Elune, going by your logic Sargeras endurance would be off the charts considering that a being that is above the Titans is the only being capable of making a weapon that is capable of injuring him.

So we just assume he has the same powers they have? thats a very bad assumption, you cant just assume and guess hes got exactley the same powers they have, his power being above them is not important especially when Pyron in this battle as well as Kain could single handadly defeat the beings he is above.

Shes not powerful when fighting, thats what i meant, overall Id put her slightly above Titans in power.

Not really off teh charts because I dont feel the titans are even that powerful when their put side by side with beings like Pyron, also your looking at it at very basic terms, Elune enchanting it doesnt mean its power is based around damage from her, if it says she enchanted it then that doesnt mean shes enchanted it with destructive power, especially since shes not a desctructive goddess.

Be that as it may Cowgirl she has no destruction feats afaik, care to show me some if she has?

Originally posted by Burning thought
Be that as it may Cowgirl she has no destruction feats afaik, care to show me some if she has?

Excuse me? How should I know if she has feats or not? I am no Warcraft professor, as you should have learnt by now.

well if you can find that she was known as a Night Warrior I imagined you could find information teh same way on her feats.

It was a mere summary from WoW-Europe. The reason I posted it was because you said she was peaceful, proving you know little of her. I just wanted to set facts straight, that she is a warrior. Or so WoW-Europe says.

That doesnt prove I know little of her, she is a peaceful goddess still.....

She is a warrior. How is that being peaceful?

It says she doesnt stay at peace consistently, it doesnt say she is always a warrior, infact it says she is usually peaceful, just not always.

A peaceful person does not have to be a pacifist

She has a title saying Night Warrior. Having a title speaking of war makes her a little more than just 'not always pacifist' I imagine

no not really, a Goddess would have hundreds of titles especially as old as Elune is, hell the Tauren think of her as another name as well, she has many titles mostly to do with the moon however, having one title doesnt make her less peaceful.

Originally posted by Burning thought
So we just assume he has the same powers they have? thats a very bad assumption, you cant just assume and guess hes got exactley the same powers they have, his power being above them is not important especially when Pyron in this battle as well as Kain could single handadly defeat the beings he is above.

Shes not powerful when fighting, thats what i meant, overall Id put her slightly above Titans in power.

Not really off teh charts because I dont feel the titans are even that powerful when their put side by side with beings like Pyron, also your looking at it at very basic terms, Elune enchanting it doesnt mean its power is based around damage from her, if it says she enchanted it then that doesnt mean shes enchanted it with destructive power, especially since shes not a desctructive goddess.

Be that as it may Cowgirl she has no destruction feats afaik, care to show me some if she has?

Ehh yes because the guy basically invented Fel Magic as it's used today, a fraction of his power amped Kil'Jaeden and Archimonde to what they is etc, so yes we can when a Army that is countless is stated to be nothing against it's master then nothing in that army can hurt of defeat Sargeras. So Kain could easily defeat Kil'Jaeden and Archimonde and the entire Burning Legion?

And that is never what I meant.

The Axe was created by Cenarius (strong Nature magic) Later Malorne granted it his blessing (infusing his even Stronger Natur Magic) then before Brox entered the Twisted Nether Elune gave her blessing (even stronger Natur Magic then Cenarius and Malorne combined) it put a scrath on Sargeras that was all. Again it toke the Destruction of the World Tree, the Night elves sacrifise of their immortality and the destruction of the Second well of eternity to destroy Archimonde, the same Well that would have maked Archimonde Supreme had be tapped into it, that is the level of Natur power that is going to be brought to Archimonde which Again is a flea to Sargeras, yet again what does the other team (Pyron and Nosgoth) have that rivals the nature magical outburst that the Well of Eternity produced? Nothing which means that even against Archimonde they would be hard pressed to put him down for good, it takes a force that rocks the earth and wields strong nature magic just to pierce his skin (Malorne incident), what the hell is their chances against Sargeras?

Originally posted by Utrigita
Ehh yes because the guy basically invented Fel Magic as it's used today, a fraction of his power amped Kil'Jaeden and Archimonde to what they is etc, so yes we can when a Army that is countless is stated to be nothing against it's master then nothing in that army can hurt of defeat Sargeras. So Kain could easily defeat Kil'Jaeden and Archimonde and the entire Burning Legion?

And that is never what I meant.

The Axe was created by Cenarius (strong Nature magic) Later Malorne granted it his blessing (infusing his even Stronger Natur Magic) then before Brox entered the Twisted Nether Elune gave her blessing (even stronger Natur Magic then Cenarius and Malorne combined) it put a scrath on Sargeras that was all. Again it toke the Destruction of the World Tree, the Night elves sacrifise of their immortality and the destruction of the Second well of eternity to destroy Archimonde, the same Well that would have maked Archimonde Supreme had be tapped into it, that is the level of Natur power that is going to be brought to Archimonde which Again is a flea to Sargeras, yet again what does the other team (Pyron and Nosgoth) have that rivals the nature magical outburst that the Well of Eternity produced? Nothing which means that even against Archimonde they would be hard pressed to put him down for good, it takes a force that rocks the earth and wields strong nature magic just to pierce his skin (Malorne incident), what the hell is their chances against Sargeras?

Inventing fel magics? i thot he simply invented turning beings fel, that doesnt mean he gains all the powers of his army.

Archi and Killy? not easily, the legion? certainly, their nothing, infact most of them in their numbers would be helping kain.

woah woah woah, all this is assumption, the well of eternity outright smashed Arcihmonde, that doesnt mean Archimondes limit the Well of eternity, hell Pyron would just punch through Archimonde like a wet paper bag, probably the same with Sargerus, nothing states that only nature magic can harm them, simply that its the most effective, the forces Kain and Pyron have together, and Jedah is more than enough to annhilate Sarg....if he can be scratched by a tiny sword, no matter its enchantment, its obvious he can be damaged by something so small, now imagine a fist many times the size of Azeroth punching into his body and he will be left in shatters.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Inventing fel magics? i thot he simply invented turning beings fel, that doesnt mean he gains all the powers of his army.

Archi and Killy? not easily, the legion? certainly, their nothing, infact most of them in their numbers would be helping kain.

woah woah woah, all this is assumption, the well of eternity outright smashed Arcihmonde, that doesnt mean Archimondes limit the Well of eternity, hell Pyron would just punch through Archimonde like a wet paper bag, probably the same with Sargerus, nothing states that only nature magic can harm them, simply that its the most effective, the forces Kain and Pyron have together, and Jedah is more than enough to annhilate Sarg....if he can be scratched by a tiny sword, no matter its enchantment, its obvious he can be damaged by something so small, now imagine a fist many times the size of Azeroth punching into his body and he will be left in shatters.

Originally (at least as I see it) it was the eredar that invented the Fel Magic but with the change of it being Sargeras corrupting them and not the other way around, it turned into Sargeras becomming the "founder" of the demonic magic in other words the fel Magic.

Not easily? So you think he can take them?

So you think the Night Elves deliberately choosed to use the World Tree because they wanted to lose their immortality? Yeah that sounds likely... Really could he what supports that, when have he engaged a combattent where the impact rocked the earth? Only Nature Magic have shown capable of harming them, so to say that other things can hurt them is a assumption. Jedah is on his team? I don't think you quiet get what is so special about the Axe try to read the post again and try to understand that Malorne could only with a full attack make a pair of smalle holes in Archimonde so the assumption that Pyron with a fist can do more damage is speculation at best, do I have to mention what Archimonde is next to Sargeras?

does it actually say he created the fel magic and not just the fel energy? turning a being fel is basically turing them into a demon, thus it may not be a magic source he invented, simply an energy which warped magic already there.

sure. Especially the current Kain, Scion.

They chose it because THEY have no other power to defeat him with, their nothing on Pyron. What supports it, the fact that Archimonde has never survived anything of that caliber, rocked the Earth? pyron is the size of a gas giant, his impact would shatter Azeroth into fragments...

No, its a default likeliness, you would be making the no limits fallacy if you assume that only Nature magic can harm them, since there is no force on Azeroth or in warcraft as physically powerful as pyron.

Jedah may as well be on his team. So he actually broke into Archimonde? i didnt even know that happened, hell Pyron would definaltey blast all the way through, dont you realise the size and overall physical power of pyron? he is beyond anything Warcraft universe can bring to bare. its not speculation, the highest thing Archimonde has physically survived is Malornes hits? yet now you tell me they did some damage by making holes, so Pyron being far far beyond that a hundred times over would completly, as i said before, break through Archimonde like a wet paper bag with just a punch, now Pyron going at lightspeed and ramming Sargeras with an impact would shatter Sargeras, who still has not shown physical endurance beyond anything.

I dont need to re-read any post, your assuming every enchantment on the axe was made to destroy or do you have proof? either way, who the hell is the guy who hit Sargeras? ime pretty sure if it was a bigger weapon wielded by Pyron and he hit Sargerus with it, Sarg would become two pieces.

Originally posted by Burning thought
does it actually say he created the fel magic and not just the fel energy? turning a being fel is basically turing them into a demon, thus it may not be a magic source he invented, simply an energy which warped magic already there.

Fel Magic, since Fel energy was always present. Fel Energy was the reason Sargeras was appointed the Warrior of the Pantheon in the first place

Originally posted by Burning thought
sure. Especially the current Kain, Scion.

wait a second I thought you said earlier that

Originally posted by Burning thought
good, well you should know then how I always discount using characters we have very little clue off,

And we have very little, clue of what Scion Kain is capable of performing actually far less then what we have of Sargeras, known facts about Scion Kain is: Defeating the Elder God, teleporting, using 4 emblems and having telekinese that is lesser then what can be presented about Sargeras, so Sargeras is a better known factor then Kain.

Originally posted by Burning thought
They chose it because THEY have no other power to defeat him with, their nothing on Pyron. What supports it, the fact that Archimonde has never survived anything of that caliber, rocked the Earth? pyron is the size of a gas giant, his impact would shatter Azeroth into fragments...

Thats correct no other power on Earth was great enough to defeat him besides that, not the Aspects not Lich King not Malfurion bound with the earth. Just The well of Eternity if that doesn't speak for his power well... Where was he ever shown to be a Gas Giant?

Originally posted by Burning thought
No, its a default likeliness, you would be making the no limits fallacy if you assume that only Nature magic can harm them, since there is no force on Azeroth or in warcraft as physically powerful as pyron.

Because only Nature Damage has shown capable of doing it I cannot say that you need Nature damage to hurt them? What kind of logic is that? Really what is Pyrons top strength feat again what impact damage has he made when colliding with a opponent? fairly easy question.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Jedah may as well be on his team. So he actually broke into Archimonde? i didnt even know that happened, hell Pyron would definaltey blast all the way through, dont you realise the size and overall physical power of pyron? he is beyond anything Warcraft universe can bring to bare. its not speculation, the highest thing Archimonde has physically survived is Malornes hits? yet now you tell me they did some damage by making holes, so Pyron being far far beyond that a hundred times over would completly, as i said before, break through Archimonde like a wet paper bag with just a punch, now Pyron going at lightspeed and ramming Sargeras with an impact would shatter Sargeras, who still has not shown physical endurance beyond anything.

What? No I don't but I'm sure you can provide scans videos statements etc that supports everything. You like to twist words I see, I said that Archimonde collided with Malorne and the only visible markings on Archimonde from the impact that shooked the earth etc was small holes and again Malorne is a extremely powerful wielder of nature magic.Now you just have to prove that Pyron has a strength factor above Malorne. Actually he has, when the portal collapsed (the portal that sunderet the warcraft world) Sargeras was in the middle of it holding it open with his strength and taking the impact without being damaged.

Originally posted by Burning thought
I dont need to re-read any post, your assuming every enchantment on the axe was made to destroy or do you have proof? either way, who the hell is the guy who hit Sargeras? ime pretty sure if it was a bigger weapon wielded by Pyron and he hit Sargerus with it, Sarg would become two pieces.

I assume that every enchanment on the Axe was made to make it stronger, which it was, it was enchancented to increase it's efficiant against Sargeras should Brox confront him. A Orc. If a bigger weapon hit Sargeras it would shatter not Sargeras, had it been infused with Nature Magic then yes it would slice him in two, unfortunely Pyron doesn't have that possibility

Originally posted by Utrigita
Fel Magic, since Fel energy was always present. Fel Energy was the reason Sargeras was appointed the Warrior of the Pantheon in the first place



wait a second I thought you said earlier that



And we have very little, clue of what Scion Kain is capable of performing actually far less then what we have of Sargeras, known facts about Scion Kain is: Defeating the Elder God, teleporting, using 4 emblems and having telekinese that is lesser then what can be presented about Sargeras, so Sargeras is a better known factor then Kain.



Thats correct no other power on Earth was great enough to defeat him besides that, not the Aspects not Lich King not Malfurion bound with the earth. Just The well of Eternity if that doesn't speak for his power well... Where was he ever shown to be a Gas Giant?



Because only Nature Damage has shown capable of doing it I cannot say that you need Nature damage to hurt them? What kind of logic is that? Really what is Pyrons top strength feat again what impact damage has he made when colliding with a opponent? fairly easy question.



What? No I don't but I'm sure you can provide scans videos statements etc that supports everything. You like to twist words I see, I said that Archimonde collided with Malorne and the only visible markings on Archimonde from the impact that shooked the earth etc was small holes and again Malorne is a extremely powerful wielder of nature magic.Now you just have to prove that Pyron has a strength factor above Malorne. Actually he has, when the portal collapsed (the portal that sunderet the warcraft world) Sargeras was in the middle of it holding it open with his strength and taking the impact without being damaged.



I assume that every enchanment on the Axe was made to make it stronger, which it was, it was enchancented to increase it's efficiant against Sargeras should Brox confront him. A Orc. If a bigger weapon hit Sargeras it would shatter not Sargeras, had it been infused with Nature Magic then yes it would slice him in two, unfortunely Pyron doesn't have that possibility

Can you show me please?

No thats not true at all, Scion kain is simply stated to gain powers that are already described, Scion of balance powers etc etc, diffrence being their all corrupted and could not use their full power wheras Raziel cured Kain with the purified reaver thus making him powerful. Scion Kain has more understanding of what he can do.

When he gets bigger than his home planet which Jaxx claims to be bigger than Jupter although personally ive not seen proof the planet was that size. No but Malorne as youe stated damaged Archimonde.

A guy bigger than a gas giant does not need or require a strength feat, what logic are you thining here? the guy is enormous, its obvious his stregnth would smash/shatter the world. I didnt twist any words, you just said it made dents in Archimonde, "smal lholes" thus Archimonde can be punctured.

Thats not the feat, Sargerus holding open the portal means nothing, the power that sundered the world happened when the portal collapsed which from what I thot destroyed Sargeras? or did he just flee?

No its not but dont you see what ime saying? the size matters and Pyron is enormous, he would punch a hole through Sargeras who has not shown a physical feat of endurance anything like that.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Can you show me please?

No thats not true at all, Scion kain is simply stated to gain powers that are already described, Scion of balance powers etc etc, diffrence being their all corrupted and could not use their full power wheras Raziel cured Kain with the purified reaver thus making him powerful. Scion Kain has more understanding of what he can do.

When he gets bigger than his home planet which Jaxx claims to be bigger than Jupter although personally ive not seen proof the planet was that size. No but Malorne as youe stated damaged Archimonde.

A guy bigger than a gas giant does not need or require a strength feat, what logic are you thining here? the guy is enormous, its obvious his stregnth would smash/shatter the world. I didnt twist any words, you just said it made dents in Archimonde, "smal lholes" thus Archimonde can be punctured.

Thats not the feat, Sargerus holding open the portal means nothing, the power that sundered the world happened when the portal collapsed which from what I thot destroyed Sargeras? or did he just flee?

No its not but dont you see what ime saying? the size matters and Pyron is enormous, he would punch a hole through Sargeras who has not shown a physical feat of endurance anything like that.

I know Becci and DarkC got the quote will ask them to get it.

Oh please show me some feats for him then, something that supports he can take out Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden that shouldn't be a problem consideret how known he appears to be.

And he can grow to that size at will? Because Malorne was wielding nature magic what is a mystery about that statement only based on that was he capable of hurting him, neither of the combatents he faces now wields natur magic.

Sorry bro, but in Marvel a Guy can be the size of a Ant and still have more strength then a 100 Ton like thor, Size doesn't always equal strength Galactus can grow to the size of a sun but that doesn't increase his strength, Because you increase you size it doesn't mean that you strength increase equally, maybe it does in Darkstalkers about that I have no idea. And again you are missing out the important information Malorne = powerful druid wielder natur = Very small damage to Archimonde = ONLY DAMAGE DONE TO ARCHIMONDE IN THE WAR OF THE ANCIENT

Eh holding a portal open with your hands alone using only you strength is a feat addressing strength, withstanding the explosion afterwards without being killed is a endurance feet, furthermore the Titans when ordering Azeroth moved Mountains imagine the weight of those and that was regular Titans...

I have already given a example of Sargeras withstanding a portal collapsing that is a physical force then he withstood the Blast which was magical (arcane, not nature) and he was fine those are feats.

I dont need to show feats, hes just known, hes not done anything yet as you well know but hes got a mix of previous beings powers that makes him incredible powerful.

He is always that size usually, its his normal size it seems, he can shrink though, but he has no reason in this battle.

Thats besides the point, Malorne is not galactus, as youve said the guy shakes the planet, well Pyron would shatter the planet because his mass would be enormous Gas giant sized, "bro".

Can you show me this info please? him withstanding the sundering explosion?

From all the Warcraft lore stories ive not heard of Sarg being hit by the blast of the sundering, thus please show me.

Pyron while mortal is physically stronger than Donavan, who has a class 100 strength feat with one arm while being stabbed twice in the heart by a blood and soul draining sword...

Pyron simply by landing in the Atlantic Ocean killed an entire race of B-B+ class Darkstalkers...

Originally posted by Burning thought
Can you show me this info please? him withstanding the sundering explosion?

Sargeras never had the chance to withstand the sundering. He was inside the portal when it imploded, while the sundering happened just after that. He did survive an imploding portal though, for all that it matters. It is tough to compare the power of an imploding portal to any type of punch, no matter who delivers it.

Originally posted by Burning thought
if he can be scratched by a tiny sword, no matter its enchantment, its obvious he can be damaged by something so small, now imagine a fist many times the size of Azeroth punching into his body and he will be left in shatters.

The sword was an Ax, and the Ax did not inflict any sort of injury on Sargeras. Only scratched his skin to a sufficient level where Sargeras was scraped. Then the combined force of Alexstrasza, Rhonin and Korialstrasz blasted to that very scratch with all their power in one attack, and for an instant succeeded at making Sargeras notice the scratch, giving Malfurion enough time to execute the final closing.

The little weapon you so ignorantly call a weak force is in fact the power of Kalimdor, brought by Elune, infused by the words of Cenarius trough the hands of Malfurion to the Ax of Brox. That little Ax contain the power of a PLANET, and you consider it nothing but a little insignificant weapon?

Originally posted by Burning thought
I dont need to re-read any post, your assuming every enchantment on the axe was made to destroy or do you have proof? either way, who the hell is the guy who hit Sargeras? ime pretty sure if it was a bigger weapon wielded by Pyron and he hit Sargerus with it, Sarg would become two pieces.

Of course, but where would Pyron get a Pyron-sized nature weapon?

...Becci, you didn't answer my post.

I feel so unloved. cry

Which post are you talking about? The most previous?

No, the one I addressed to you on the 2nd or 3rd page.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
1. That is the thing though, Pyron is not a being of pure raw power, he has telepathy, matter and energy manipulation, creationism, Cosmic Awareness on beyond a galactic level, the power to see in the future(may only be a product of Cosmic Awareness though), among other things. Pyron can, without really doing anything from the look of it, convert Earth into a ring, he didn't grow and have the Earth orbit his finger like I originally thought, he literally remade Earth, without harming its life forms and all, as a ring.

2. But Sargeras cannot run forever, and in Nosgoth, there is only like three dimensions I think. Pyron is much faster than Sargeras however, can let most attacks phase right through him, and can destroy every world Sargeras flees to.

3. Has his TK affected someone of Pyron's vast size and strength? He has never absorbed as much energy as Pyron's body contains, or absorbed as much energy as Pyron has to my knowledge, and his control over flames IMO won't match Pyron's, a living Cosmic fire elemental. But Pyron's soul has shown resistance against a soul stealer. Thing is, many of Sargeras' powers are not useful against Pyron, and some of which Pyron has the same powers only to a higher level.

And KOS-MOS is an overrated and overhyped piece of shit.

4. Yeah...I admit I jumped the gun on that one.

.......Lol wut? Really?

That's...Well it is kinda sad.

5. If not stopped by Demitri, he WOULD have devoured Makai as well as Earth. He has shown resilience by not only beating Bishamon, doing it effortlessly. He did not even need to attack, he only needed to power up and his energies literally separated Bishamon from his armor, which is bound by body and even soul. So Pyron, in canon, has affected the soul of a fighter, and this was while mortal mind you, not full power. Yeah, I do not think said BFR would affect Pyron or most in LOK for that matter lol.

1. While I do not doubt your words, I would like to know or see where it is said that this is how it happened with Pyron and Earth. I have yes, realised, that there is more to Pyron than just brawns, but as much as there is to Pyron, if we exclude the physical attributes, there is more to Sargeras. Sargeras too has energy manipulation, he also has the ability to create life, objects and such (Assuming that is what you meant by creationism) and suppsively has a degree of cosmical awareness. While I am sure neither one of them are at the level of Pyron's, Sargeras has something Pyron does not. Magic.

Magic in Warcraft is used to a lot of things. The Titans imprisoned the Old Gods. Malygos erased existance. Weak mortals could absorb not only energy, but actual life. Minions far below Sargeras might can not only drain souls, but twist, fiddle and play with them as if they are solid objects. You may think that magic is not that much of a factor against one such as Pyron, but there is a lot that can be done with it. I strongly believe that if anything can bring Pyron down, it is Warcraft magic by a stronger entity such as Sargeras or others in the Pantheon.

2. In matter of fact, he probably can, but I do not imagine he would. Sargeras would never be good with living as second rate and he would settle the score with the one threatening factor in this fight: Pyron. I do not have my doubts that Sargeras would dominate Nosgoth had it not been for Pyron's interfearance. He would probably rule the reaches of Darkstalkers too if given time. Pyron is the factor, and despite all of his talents, this primarly due to his physical attributes: Size, Endurance, Strength, Speed.

3. Pyron may have shown resistance to a soul stealer before, but Sargeras would not only steal his soul. He would try steal the soul, his body, the mind and most likely even the free will. He could of course not do this with a snap of his finger, but it would be done over time. I can of course not assume this fight is on Warcraft terms, but in Warcraft, a soul and mind can be stolen over time. Bit by bit. Piece by piece. It is true that he has never dealt with something Pyron's size, but he has dealt with portions of Pyron's size, which is what he would do here.

4. It depends really. It is the only solid feat we can use and say "This is his durability". Sargeras did walk away from having suffered the portal imploding with him inside it and he has had several cloudy endurance feats, but the Ax swing by Brox is the only one really solid.

5. Not sure what to answer on that one, other than that Sargeras defeated an entire species that devoted all their lives and magic to stealing, manipulating, eating and playing with souls.

Originally posted by Becci
1. While I do not doubt your words, I would like to know or see where it is said that this is how it happened with Pyron and Earth. I have yes, realised, that there is more to Pyron than just brawns, but as much as there is to Pyron, if we exclude the physical attributes, there is more to Sargeras. Sargeras too has energy manipulation, he also has the ability to create life, objects and such (Assuming that is what you meant by creationism) and suppsively has a degree of cosmical awareness. While I am sure neither one of them are at the level of Pyron's, Sargeras has something Pyron does not. Magic.

Magic in Warcraft is used to a lot of things. The Titans imprisoned the Old Gods. Malygos erased existance. Weak mortals could absorb not only energy, but actual life. Minions far below Sargeras might can not only drain souls, but twist, fiddle and play with them as if they are solid objects. You may think that magic is not that much of a factor against one such as Pyron, but there is a lot that can be done with it. I strongly believe that if anything can bring Pyron down, it is Warcraft magic by a stronger entity such as Sargeras or others in the Pantheon.

2. In matter of fact, he probably can, but I do not imagine he would. Sargeras would never be good with living as second rate and he would settle the score with the one threatening factor in this fight: Pyron. I do not have my doubts that Sargeras would dominate Nosgoth had it not been for Pyron's interfearance. He would probably rule the reaches of Darkstalkers too if given time. Pyron is the factor, and despite all of his talents, this primarly due to his physical attributes: Size, Endurance, Strength, Speed.

3. Pyron may have shown resistance to a soul stealer before, but Sargeras would not only steal his soul. He would try steal the soul, his body, the mind and most likely even the free will. He could of course not do this with a snap of his finger, but it would be done over time. I can of course not assume this fight is on Warcraft terms, but in Warcraft, a soul and mind can be stolen over time. Bit by bit. Piece by piece. It is true that he has never dealt with something Pyron's size, but he has dealt with portions of Pyron's size, which is what he would do here.

4. It depends really. It is the only solid feat we can use and say "This is his durability". Sargeras did walk away from having suffered the portal imploding with him inside it and he has had several cloudy endurance feats, but the Ax swing by Brox is the only one really solid.

5. Not sure what to answer on that one, other than that Sargeras defeated an entire species that devoted all their lives and magic to stealing, manipulating, eating and playing with souls. Thank you for answering my post. At first I thought you didn't love me anymore.

1. I actually cannot, there is no Youtube vid for it that I know of, you need to see the vid to actually get it, it shows Pyron above Earth, it shows people on Earth commenting gravitational/whatever changes, then it zooms out and Earth is now Pyron's ring. Pyron's energy manipulation is IMO greater, and Pyron can create matter as well. Pyron has Cosmical Awareness beyond a galactic level, hell, he saw through dimensions and into Makai, even used his telepathy to speak to all of Makai and implanted the desire to fight him, many Makai left it to answer his call.

While I believe that is all true, Pyron can and has done several of those, and some to greater extents(absorbing matter and life), and has done more.

2. IMO no, I believe Pyron's powers such as his matter manipulation would be an even greater threat, not just physical. He also has great versatility with his energy manipulation, a prime example would be his Cosmic Disruption, which causes several explosions to just kinda happen in the enemy's vicinity spontaneously, it is like several teleporting explosions.

3. To even live in Makai you need a strong soul, Pyron is capable of devouring Makai in its entirety. Pyron's mind powers, his telepathy, affected all the creatures of Makai(trillions), I think his mind at least is safe. Pyron is not simply larger than Sargeras, he is larger than anything in Warcraft multiplied by ten.

4. Meh...Pyron doesn't so much have durability feats, he is pure energy, he doesn't have a corporal form unless he wants one, and even as a mortal can let attacks pass through him.

5. Well I wasn't really arguing Pyron would attack Sargeras' soul lol. Only that he has shown some mild soul powers.

Originally posted by Becci
I do not have my doubts that Sargeras would dominate Nosgoth had it not been for Pyron's interfearance. He would probably rule the reaches of Darkstalkers too if given time.

There are many beings who could elminate Sargeras, Elder God alone is both far larger than him as well as untouchable multi reality being who would crush the Titan, hes like a super old God on steroids, but Azimoth and the dimentional beings could BFR sargeras into a random dimension he could not escape from to win the battle. Thats if Kain doesnt just elminate him with ease.

Originally posted by Burning thought
I dont need to show feats, hes just known, hes not done anything yet as you well know but hes got a mix of previous beings powers that makes him incredible powerful.

He is always that size usually, its his normal size it seems, he can shrink though, but he has no reason in this battle.

Thats besides the point, Malorne is not galactus, as youve said the guy shakes the planet, well Pyron would shatter the planet because his mass would be enormous Gas giant sized, "bro".

Can you show me this info please? him withstanding the sundering explosion?

From all the Warcraft lore stories ive not heard of Sarg being hit by the blast of the sundering, thus please show me.

Yes you do, I need to show you feats concerning Sargeras, then it works the other way around too, This isn't a one way track and saying "he is just known" about a Character that has made a single apperance and has done absolutely nothing in that single apperance that would justify your claim of him to take out Kil'Jaeden and Archimonde and much less Sargeras, then you need to bring more then that.

And?

No he isn't, but it holds a point none the less, size doesn't automaticly equal strength, Archimonde for instance grew in size but showed no increased physical attributes being increased.

Becci already has...

He was inside the Portal that collapsed bringing about the sundering of the world... thus he was hit by the power of the very portal that caused the Sundering and he was unharmed.

Originally posted by Utrigita
Yes you do, I need to show you feats concerning Sargeras, then it works the other way around too, This isn't a one way track and saying "he is just known" about a Character that has made a single apperance and has done absolutely nothing in that single apperance that would justify your claim of him to take out Kil'Jaeden and Archimonde and much less Sargeras, then you need to bring more then that.

And?

No he isn't, but it holds a point none the less, size doesn't automaticly equal strength, Archimonde for instance grew in size but showed no increased physical attributes being increased.

Becci already has...

He was inside the Portal that collapsed bringing about the sundering of the world... thus he was hit by the power of the very portal that caused the Sundering and he was unharmed.

No you need to show me canon powers of Sarg, Feats are nice but not ncessry if you can actually show his canon pwoers. And there is more jusitifaction in his power, since as I said hes a combination of previous beings who together make him so powerful.

You asked if he can be gas giant sized on a whim...my answer is hes naturally that size and has shown to shapeshift, how long it takes him to become tiny i dont know

Size usually does, it means your a much higher mass....thus your blows will land heavier by normal means.

yes she did, and she said quite clearly he was not impacted by the sundering...just the portal closing.

Originally posted by Burning thought
No you need to show me canon powers of Sarg, Feats are nice but not ncessry if you can actually show his canon pwoers. And there is more jusitifaction in his power, since as I said hes a combination of previous beings who together make him so powerful.

You asked if he can be gas giant sized on a whim...my answer is hes naturally that size and has shown to shapeshift, how long it takes him to become tiny i dont know

Size usually does, it means your a much higher mass....thus your blows will land heavier by normal means.

yes she did, and she said quite clearly he was not impacted by the sundering...just the portal closing.

Eh I already have multiply as a matter of fact. There is more weight in a character with no feats then their is in a Character with feats? and how come we capable of using other characters feats and powerlevel to justifies Scion Kain when we cannot use it to justify Sargeras...

And does his strenght etc increase as he grows?

Not always a smaller person can hit harder then a heavier person provided that the smaller person uses his momentum to deliver the punch.

The Portal that closed caused the sundering and Sargeras was right in the middle of the Portal holding it open and taking the full effect of the implosion without damage when the Portal collapsed.

Originally posted by Utrigita
Eh I already have multiply as a matter of fact. There is more weight in a character with no feats then their is in a Character with feats? and how come we capable of using other characters feats and powerlevel to justifies Scion Kain when we cannot use it to justify Sargeras...

And does his strenght etc increase as he grows?

Not always a smaller person can hit harder then a heavier person provided that the smaller person uses his momentum to deliver the punch.

The Portal that closed caused the sundering and Sargeras was right in the middle of the Portal holding it open and taking the full effect of the implosion without damage when the Portal collapsed.

because when I use scion kain i used specific abilities, like an area of control such as energy, wheras calling Sarg powerful just becaue he is above his army doesnt help in a debate.

I dont know, I think it reduces as he shrinks however.

Well Pyron wins both, since his momentum can reach lightspeed anyway...

yes it caused it, but Sarg wasnt hit by the sundering still.

Originally posted by Utrigita
And does his strenght etc increase as he grows?

Not always a smaller person can hit harder then a heavier person provided that the smaller person uses his momentum to deliver the punch. Yeah, only in this case since Pyron actually has some degree of fighting skill and Sargeras has none known, and since Pyron at mortal form is easily class 100, and since he is much much much larger and faster than Sargeras, he WILL hit harder.

There are three things which attribute to strike force.

Strength. Which Pyron takes.

Speed. Which Pyron also takes.

Mass. Which Pyron undeniably takes.

And technique, which Pyron prolly takes as far as H2H is concerned.

So Pyron WILL be hitting harder, and that is just a normal punch, in combat Pyron morphs his body for melee attacks.

Originally posted by Burning thought
There are many beings who could elminate Sargeras, Elder God alone is both far larger than him as well as untouchable multi reality being who would crush the Titan, hes like a super old God on steroids, but Azimoth and the dimentional beings could BFR sargeras into a random dimension he could not escape from to win the battle. Thats if Kain doesnt just elminate him with ease.

How is he supposed to crush Sargeras, when he could not even handle Kain? Sargeras is larger, more endurant, stronger and from what is recorded ability-wise: stronger on a magical level over Kain?

And what makes you so certain that Azimoth and them people could BFR Sargeras? He can cross dimensions like they are doors in a hallway, you know. Not that he has to be in the same dimension to attack them, which we have seen at more than one occasion.

Then we have the Kain matter, that I can not see Kain walking away from. There is more than one way to stop the unstoppable, and while Kain can keep on coming back from the dead, Sargeras could always take the reaver away from him and imprison him.

Originally posted by Burning thought
yes it caused it, but Sarg wasnt hit by the sundering still.

Actually, Sargeras was more exposed to the sundering than anyone else. The destruction of the world was only a side-effect from the actual blast, which was the implosion of the portal. The portal which Sargeras was trying to crawl out of when it imploded. So while he may not have been present at the sundering, he did take the heavy hit.

Originally posted by Becci
How is he supposed to crush Sargeras, when he could not even handle Kain? Sargeras is larger, more endurant, stronger and from what is recorded ability-wise: stronger on a magical level over Kain?

And what makes you so certain that Azimoth and them people could BFR Sargeras? He can cross dimensions like they are doors in a hallway, you know. Not that he has to be in the same dimension to attack them, which we have seen at more than one occasion.

Then we have the Kain matter, that I can not see Kain walking away from. There is more than one way to stop the unstoppable, and while Kain can keep on coming back from the dead, Sargeras could always take the reaver away from him and imprison him.



Actually, Sargeras was more exposed to the sundering than anyone else. The destruction of the world was only a side-effect from the actual blast, which was the implosion of the portal. The portal which Sargeras was trying to crawl out of when it imploded. So while he may not have been present at the sundering, he did take the heavy hit.

Kain is more difficult to get thats why, not only is Kain immortal to not being able to die for any reason so thats besides the point but Kain unlike Sarg has a near instant power of ripping out the souls of enemies or creating a shield to protect himself that has a well of eternity sized energy source ,himself. Sarg size will be the death of him against pyron. Magical level? what shows sargs magical level to be above kains?

What makes you say he can cross dimensions? in what source does it say this?

Take the reaver from Kain? what a joke....Sarg would do this how before he is atoms? this is Scion kain, his overall manipulative powers would be beyond any in this arena for sure, however even normal Defiance Kain has so many abilities, one of them whether it be soul ripping, time powers etc would mess up Sargeras and drainign Sarg of all his power would be another painful experiance for the Dark titan, which makes a Kain/Pyron team combo near unstoppable, Kain can take away their energy while Pyron can deliver a blow they would unlikely survive.

Can you show me this please? your source?

mmm

Kain kicks em all into the sun

My ass itches. mmm

Originally posted by Burning thought
Kain is more difficult to get thats why, not only is Kain immortal to not being able to die for any reason so thats besides the point but Kain unlike Sarg has a near instant power of ripping out the souls of enemies or creating a shield to protect himself that has a well of eternity sized energy source ,himself. Sarg size will be the death of him against pyron. Magical level? what shows sargs magical level to be above kains?

What makes you say he can cross dimensions? in what source does it say this?

Take the reaver from Kain? what a joke....Sarg would do this how before he is atoms? this is Scion kain, his overall manipulative powers would be beyond any in this arena for sure, however even normal Defiance Kain has so many abilities, one of them whether it be soul ripping, time powers etc would mess up Sargeras and drainign Sarg of all his power would be another painful experiance for the Dark titan, which makes a Kain/Pyron team combo near unstoppable, Kain can take away their energy while Pyron can deliver a blow they would unlikely survive.

Can you show me this please? your source?

Before I start, I would just like to let you know that I find you rather hypocritic.


Now: What do you mean, unlike Sargeras? Entities far below Sargeras, has with power granted them by Sargeras, ripped souls out of a body just like that. Heck, we can go down many steps. Arthas ripped out a soul with the blessing of Lich King, who was blessed by Kil'Jaeden, who was blessed by Sargeras. If someone as far down in the foodchain as Arthas could rip out a soul, then imagine Sargeras. Of course, we can not prove he is any better than Arthas at it, so ripping the soul out with a grasp will have to do.

I find it interesting that you compare Kain with the Well of Eternity, since a sorcerer far weaker than Sargeras could destroy the Well despite the limitless essence.


You mean other than the fact that the Titans traveled dimensions rather often? And that Sargeras has an ability known as dimension door? Or that lesser magical entities can travel dimensions in Warcraft? Not only dimensions though, but other realities and timestreams are traveled in Warcraft. If you think Warcraft is nothing but a lot of planets in a universe, think again. There are several dimensions that are often mentioned, and Twisting Nether one of the most common ones. In fact, whenever a person move from Azeroth to Outlands in WoW, they cross a dimension. When Kil'Jaeden arise in the Sunwell Plataeu, he is coming from a seperate dimension. Whenever a druid falls asleep, they visit another dimension. Warlocks constantly manipulate seperate dimensions to bring forth demonic forces and powers. In a single day, Gul'Dan taught average shamans how to open rifts into dimensions. Would you like all of these examples specified to from where they come?


Drain all of Sargeras power? Turn him into atoms? Rip his soul? While I am certain his soul will not be touched, I would like you to show me Kain turning anyone into atoms, or Kain draining all of anyones power that is of Sargeras magnitude. Time manipulation? A timebolt and an areal slow time ability, right?

...Becci, you didn't answer my post...

You like BT better, don't you? cry

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
...Becci, you didn't answer my post...

You like BT better, don't you? cry

Not at all. Quite the contruary. You just bring better points of debate, that require more thinking when it comes to delivering a response. Burning Thought has less good points, which are far easier to respond to. If anything, you should take me not responding as something good I need to think when you bring your points up, while Burning Thought's points are just so .... simple

Originally posted by Becci
Before I start, I would just like to let you know that I find you rather hypocritic.


Now: What do you mean, unlike Sargeras? Entities far below Sargeras, has with power granted them by Sargeras, ripped souls out of a body just like that. Heck, we can go down many steps. Arthas ripped out a soul with the blessing of Lich King, who was blessed by Kil'Jaeden, who was blessed by Sargeras. If someone as far down in the foodchain as Arthas could rip out a soul, then imagine Sargeras. Of course, we can not prove he is any better than Arthas at it, so ripping the soul out with a grasp will have to do.

I find it interesting that you compare Kain with the Well of Eternity, since a sorcerer far weaker than Sargeras could destroy the Well despite the limitless essence.


You mean other than the fact that the Titans traveled dimensions rather often? And that Sargeras has an ability known as dimension door? Or that lesser magical entities can travel dimensions in Warcraft? Not only dimensions though, but other realities and timestreams are traveled in Warcraft. If you think Warcraft is nothing but a lot of planets in a universe, think again. There are several dimensions that are often mentioned, and Twisting Nether one of the most common ones. In fact, whenever a person move from Azeroth to Outlands in WoW, they cross a dimension. When Kil'Jaeden arise in the Sunwell Plataeu, he is coming from a seperate dimension. Whenever a druid falls asleep, they visit another dimension. Warlocks constantly manipulate seperate dimensions to bring forth demonic forces and powers. In a single day, Gul'Dan taught average shamans how to open rifts into dimensions. Would you like all of these examples specified to from where they come?


Drain all of Sargeras power? Turn him into atoms? Rip his soul? While I am certain his soul will not be touched, I would like you to show me Kain turning anyone into atoms, or Kain draining all of anyones power that is of Sargeras magnitude. Time manipulation? A timebolt and an areal slow time ability, right?

beings below Kain, like his sons dont all have the same powers as Kain and Kain doesnt have their powers either, simply saying "well Sarg created this one, so he created this and etc etc etc" doesnt mean much unless you can prove Sarg can actually manip souls, his magic from what Ive read has never been heralded.

I compared Kains energy storage to the well,s which ofc is infnite.

The Twisting nether is a dimension? i realise the warlocks call beings from other realms but are they other dimensions or simply planes of reality? since not everything is a diffrent dimension.

Your Certain his soul will not be touched? how so? has he shown Soul invulerability?

Turning someone into atoms could be done using the concept of Energy, since beings bodies are functioned or made up of diffrent types of energy, a combinatio nof energy concept and states would do fine, althouh hes not done it, just like Sarg you assume he would have Fel powers since he invented it wouldnt you? so Kain has access to these powers infnitley due to his magical connection.

A timebolt that freezes beings yes.

Draining Sargeras Energy would be easy, Kain regulates magic, he would reduce Sarg to nothing.

Originally posted by Becci
Not at all. Quite the contruary. You just bring better points of debate, that require more thinking when it comes to delivering a response. Burning Thought has less good points, which are far easier to respond to. If anything, you should take me not responding as something good I need to think when you bring your points up, while Burning Thought's points are just so .... simple

Youll eat those words when were on page 30 of this debate with me as the only opposing figuire and you requiring backup of Cowgril, utrigos and maybe even Dark C.

Originally posted by Becci
Not at all. Quite the contruary. You just bring better points of debate, that require more thinking when it comes to delivering a response. Burning Thought has less good points, which are far easier to respond to. If anything, you should take me not responding as something good I need to think when you bring your points up, while Burning Thought's points are just so .... simple Confidence boosts ftw. 131

But thanks for t3h compliment. haermm

hug

Originally posted by Burning thought
Youll eat those words when were on page 30 of this debate with me as the only opposing figuire and you requiring backup of Cowgril, utrigos and maybe even Dark C.

I assume you meant 3 and not 30.


Backup?! Is that how you see it? You are more arrogant than I thought. So anyone that debate for Sargeras is my backup against your awesome debating skills, then?

Realitycheck: They never came to my rescue, because I never had anything I needed to be rescued from. They are not my 'backup', they are merely people with opinions different from yours. Everything is not black and white, Burning Thought. Everyone doesnt team up against you, even though from where you sit I imagine you see it that way. You arent that awesome debater that can stand alone against entire crowds, even though you might think you are.

Realitycheck: You are a terrible debater, with crappy argumental strategies and an arrogance that makes Arthas seem humble. You point out and complain about usage of different fallacies when it suits you and use them yourself when it suits your character in question, ignorantly ignoring the fact that you are the same person that you complain many others to be. You completely burden everyone with requests of proof to completely insignificant points, most likely because you want to find whatever holes that might exist, while you yourself expect everyone to believe you because 'so is simply the case'.

Realitycheck: If you ever looked at Kain with as much critic as you look at every single other character that is against him, or other characters you speak in favor of in various battle threads on this forum, you would find a lot of holes in your bulletproof 'Kain is awesome'-wall. You are a smart kid, but your way of debating is terrible. You are narrowminded, and sees just about only what you want to see. You are merely too stubborn to realise that Kain is not even close to as powerful as your image of him is. Use that intelligence of yours to open your mind and reflect on Kain or whoever as well, rather than focuse it on tearing everything that oppose you down.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Confidence boosts ftw. 131

But thanks for t3h compliment. haermm

hug

You are welcome

Originally posted by Becci
I assume you meant 3 and not 30.


Backup?! Is that how you see it? You are more arrogant than I thought. So anyone that debate for Sargeras is my backup against your awesome debating skills, then?

Realitycheck: They never came to my rescue, because I never had anything I needed to be rescued from. They are not my 'backup', they are merely people with opinions different from yours. Everything is not black and white, Burning Thought. Everyone doesnt team up against you, even though from where you sit I imagine you see it that way. You arent that awesome debater that can stand alone against entire crowds, even though you might think you are.

Realitycheck: You are a terrible debater, with crappy argumental strategies and an arrogance that makes Arthas seem humble. You point out and complain about usage of different fallacies when it suits you and use them yourself when it suits your character in question, ignorantly ignoring the fact that you are the same person that you complain many others to be. You completely burden everyone with requests of proof to completely insignificant points, most likely because you want to find whatever holes that might exist, while you yourself expect everyone to believe you because 'so is simply the case'.

Realitycheck: If you ever looked at Kain with as much critic as you look at every single other character that is against him, or other characters you speak in favor of in various battle threads on this forum, you would find a lot of holes in your bulletproof 'Kain is awesome'-wall. You are a smart kid, but your way of debating is terrible. You are narrowminded, and sees just about only what you want to see. You are merely too stubborn to realise that Kain is not even close to as powerful as your image of him is. Use that intelligence of yours to open your mind and reflect on Kain or whoever as well, rather than focuse it on tearing everything that oppose you down.

No 30

Probably, you need backup because tbh you dont usually do well againts me in debates, onyl Dark C and utrigos can counter me properly, otherwise you just give opinions that are from simple opionionated views, not in debatable views.

They are a form of backup, anyone on your side would be the backup, especially friends. oh but i do, have and have done for long before you came to this section of this forum have I deabted against hordes and usually beat them into silence.

Wow, ime being told ime terrible by a terrible debator herself, I dont use fallacies, if I do point them out please. Because it is simply the case, people belive some of the things i say because ive given proof of it before since many of the debators are old, and nitpicking proof points is the best way to shatter a debate, there is always something someone is hiding or cannot tell you that from a debating point of view can kill their argument, thats hwy ime a good debator, not "terrible", ive had several fairly good debates with people, including utrigos where we even settled a point civily, I can be a nice debator sometimes, or aggressive.

Then point out these holes Becci please do, because from my "narrowminded" point of view your ranting on about how terrible i am without providing anything yourself, showing any examples, your simply attacking in a way which although amusing are pointless without any major backing. Too stubborn to realise Kain is not as powerful? lol, against what opposition? your post right there is a constant reminder to me how weak many deabtors are in how they cannot even point out the merest clue to their ideal that ime wrong when I can backup most if not all what I say with something.

I can use it to tear apart and see into characters I know, and have known for a long time, its your job to use my "narrowmindedness" against me and actually beat me in a debate for once? Ranting saddity is neither required nor interesting.

Originally posted by Burning thought
because when I use scion kain i used specific abilities, like an area of control such as energy, wheras calling Sarg powerful just becaue he is above his army doesnt help in a debate.

I dont know, I think it reduces as he shrinks however.

Well Pyron wins both, since his momentum can reach lightspeed anyway...

yes it caused it, but Sarg wasnt hit by the sundering still.

What is Scion Kain specific abilities then what has he demonstrated on panel, that's right absolutely nothing that can support your Kain > Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden, you are basing Scion Kains powerlevel on assumptions based on other Characters. I would like a explanation why you can use other Characters to argue for a Character with no feats when I on the other hand cannot use Characters to give a example of what my Character that actually has feats to further prove what he is capable of.

But you don't know?

And How will I ask again will that help him, you haven't provided a shreed of proof that point against Sargeras skin even being pierced by other then Nature magic, as Becci has already mentioned that Axe contained the power of a Planet.

No he was just hit by the force that produced the sundering

Originally posted by Utrigita
What is Scion Kain specific abilities then what has he demonstrated on panel, that's right absolutely nothing that can support your Kain > Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden, you are basing Scion Kains powerlevel on assumptions based on other Characters. I would like a explanation why you can use other Characters to argue for a Character with no feats when I on the other hand cannot use Characters to give a example of what my Character that actually has feats to further prove what he is capable of.

But you don't know?

And How will I ask again will that help him, you haven't provided a shreed of proof that point against Sargeras skin even being pierced by other then Nature magic, as Becci has already mentioned that Axe contained the power of a Planet.

No he was just hit by the force that produced the sundering

Hes not demontrated, but he has "capabilities" that are all obvious and known because of beings who are exactley the same in the LOK universe, diffrence being he is far more powerful than all of them because his combination of power, their power makes him so powerful. You can use characters you can prove he has the same powers as, Sargeras didnt give the Eredar every power they have, they were already masterful magicians, maybe even beyond Sargeras himself, you cannot assume just because he corrupted them further warping some of their powers because of his fel magic that he automiatcially has their powers, its not the same relationship.

No i dont, Dark Jaxx would know if anyone

You think the power of a planet>>countless galaxies?

A what of proof? my role is not to provide proof for a negative, you have to provide proof that Sargaras CAN survive something the size of a Gas giant hitting him at light speed, it would be like me saying Kain has never been hit by such a foce, therefore he is invuleralbe to such forces....which ofc is BS, Sargeras has not even been hit by many things and nothing to the degree of pyrons impact and this will be without any power after Kain drains him to nothing.

Where does it say there was a force until after the portal collapsed? the world was not being destroyed with the portal open, it was simply the portal imploding that caused the explosion..which Sarg apprently was not present for after the sundering.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Hes not demontrated, but he has "capabilities" that are all obvious and known because of beings who are exactley the same in the LOK universe, diffrence being he is far more powerful than all of them because his combination of power, their power makes him so powerful. You can use characters you can prove he has the same powers as, Sargeras didnt give the Eredar every power they have, they were already masterful magicians, maybe even beyond Sargeras himself, you cannot assume just because he corrupted them further warping some of their powers because of his fel magic that he automiatcially has their powers, its not the same relationship.

No i dont, Dark Jaxx would know if anyone

You think the power of a planet>>countless galaxies?

A what of proof? my role is not to provide proof for a negative, you have to provide proof that Sargaras CAN survive something the size of a Gas giant hitting him at light speed, it would be like me saying Kain has never been hit by such a foce, therefore he is invuleralbe to such forces....which ofc is BS, Sargeras has not even been hit by many things and nothing to the degree of pyrons impact and this will be without any power after Kain drains him to nothing.

Where does it say there was a force until after the portal collapsed? the world was not being destroyed with the portal open, it was simply the portal imploding that caused the explosion..which Sarg apprently was not present for after the sundering.

Oh he has the capability just like Sargeras but not a single damm feat to support him taking out Archimonde, you know BT the only difference here is instead of Sargeras being relevant in this scenario it's Kain, and then suddenly other characters feats are a nice way to make a assumption about the powerlevel of a character when he has none himself. Eh yes I can because the Guy invented Fel Magic the same magic that Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden wields, I furthermore because Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden where Fleas, that means that they can be all the master sorcerer they wishes, they can become as powerful as their mind allows them and they are still beneath Sargeras.

That depends on the situation, what if we for instance have Kain and drops all those Galaxies on him? He would be killed over and over because he is immortal however suppose that in that planet where the thing just required to kill him? Then the Planet would >>> the Galaxies, it a even better example when taking Galactus, Galactus can feed on one Planet and destroy countless Galaxies...

I have already mentioned and Becci further elaborated that Sargeras hasn't been hurted by anything besides nature magic, now it's up too you to provide proof to the contrary, I actually like the comparison A Axe infused with Natur Power can harm him but the implosion of a Portal that rips a world apart cannot.

Because Sargeras was using his strength to keep the portal open, then it implodes with Sargeras in the middle of it, and we learn from the book that he is unharmed but furious and to where he was, the same place as before in the twisted nether.

Originally posted by Utrigita
Oh he has the capability just like Sargeras but not a single damm feat to support him taking out Archimonde, you know BT the only difference here is instead of Sargeras being relevant in this scenario it's Kain, and then suddenly other characters feats are a nice way to make a assumption about the powerlevel of a character when he has none himself. Eh yes I can because the Guy invented Fel Magic the same magic that Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden wields, I furthermore because Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden where Fleas, that means that they can be all the master sorcerer they wishes, they can become as powerful as their mind allows them and they are still beneath Sargeras.

That depends on the situation, what if we for instance have Kain and drops all those Galaxies on him? He would be killed over and over because he is immortal however suppose that in that planet where the thing just required to kill him? Then the Planet would >>> the Galaxies, it a even better example when taking Galactus, Galactus can feed on one Planet and destroy countless Galaxies...

I have already mentioned and Becci further elaborated that Sargeras hasn't been hurted by anything besides nature magic, now it's up too you to provide proof to the contrary, I actually like the comparison A Axe infused with Natur Power can harm him but the implosion of a Portal that rips a world apart cannot.

Because Sargeras was using his strength to keep the portal open, then it implodes with Sargeras in the middle of it, and we learn from the book that he is unharmed but furious and to where he was, the same place as before in the twisted nether.

Him being above them does not mean magically, and nothing states every sorcery they use is from Sarg, where does it state all Eredar powers derived from sargeras, the Eredar were a race of surpeme sorcerors by themselves...it was part of their culture and everything to do with it.

But nothing is officially stated only Nature magic can damage Sargeras, only that the Azeroth way of dealing with him best is nature powers, either way overall its far less power than Pyron and Sarg I KNOWb has never been hit by the force Pyron could hit him with.

No your using the "no limits" fallacy, you claim that because he has only been harmed by nature magic, nothing else should be able to damage him, would you equelly claim Galactus and Living tribunal wouldnt be able to harm Sargeras without using nature powers?......ridiculous notion, the main thing is, Sargeras has not been shown resistant to physical damage either.

Nothing so far implies he was hit by the implosion power, only that the implosion destroyed Azeroth, not that it actually hit Sargeras who was left in the Nether as you said.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Nothing so far implies he was hit by the implosion power, only that the implosion destroyed Azeroth, not that it actually hit Sargeras who was left in the Nether as you said.

Oh please. Like you are in a position to say that. And for the record, you are both wrong.

Utrigita: Sargeras was not in the Twisting Nether before. Only after. When Brox swung his Ax, he was not in the Nether, and neither was Sargeras.
Burning Thought: Everything implies that he was hit by the implosion.

Originally posted by Becci
Oh please. Like you are in a position to say that. And for the record, you are both wrong.

Utrigita: Sargeras was not in the Twisting Nether before. Only after. When Brox swung his Ax, he was not in the Nether, and neither was Sargeras.
Burning Thought: Everything implies that he was hit by the implosion.

Ime in a position to say what i like, since as i said, nothing so far implies means you dont have any proof or statements.

Everything implies? can yuo show me please this proof, since nothing in this thread implies that, I know your a terrible Proof finder but why dont you at least quote the exact text where it implies he was hit by the full power that sundered the world?

Originally posted by Becci
Oh please. Like you are in a position to say that. And for the record, you are both wrong.

Utrigita: Sargeras was not in the Twisting Nether before. Only after. When Brox swung his Ax, he was not in the Nether, and neither was Sargeras.
Burning Thought: Everything implies that he was hit by the implosion.

Hmmm always thought that he was, it was the impression I gained... But accepted.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Him being above them does not mean magically, and nothing states every sorcery they use is from Sarg, where does it state all Eredar powers derived from sargeras, the Eredar were a race of surpeme sorcerors by themselves...it was part of their culture and everything to do with it.

But nothing is officially stated only Nature magic can damage Sargeras, only that the Azeroth way of dealing with him best is nature powers, either way overall its far less power than Pyron and Sarg I KNOWb has never been hit by the force Pyron could hit him with.

No your using the "no limits" fallacy, you claim that because he has only been harmed by nature magic, nothing else should be able to damage him, would you equelly claim Galactus and Living tribunal wouldnt be able to harm Sargeras without using nature powers?......ridiculous notion, the main thing is, Sargeras has not been shown resistant to physical damage either.

Nothing so far implies he was hit by the implosion power, only that the implosion destroyed Azeroth, not that it actually hit Sargeras who was left in the Nether as you said.

Well then please explain to me what Fleas mean in the context? No but their most potent magical attacks is fel magic in nature and that fel magic is from Sargeras. And that Race was further amped by Sargeras.

And I know that no power beyond Natur has ever been shown capable of hurting Sargeras, that is the perimeter I work from, that no magical effect (except nature) ore Physical attack (powered in some way by a nature attack) is capable of harming Sargeras, If the Cosmic Fire ore whatever it is that Pyron is dancing around with is capable of doing it I have no idea, but I don't think so and it's correct that Sargeras has never been hit by a force of that magnitude... Wait the sundering that tore apart the world ore Malornes charge against Archimonde that rocked the earth... Again please show me the proof of Pyron in what ever size he is for this fight can with a physical punch shock the entire earth, then I will begin consider that Sargeras can be hurt by other then Natur magic, on a planetary scale.

There is some difference, The Living Tribunal is capable of harnessing magical powers far beyond any being on Azeroth, Galactus is capable of absorbing all kinds of energy and turns beings own power against them and can draw his energy from the Hyperspace the source all energy comes from including magic, and lastly Galactus heralds have shown that they can overwrite magical effect with their power cosmic, has Pyron ore Kain shown that they can overwrite the magical effect of a being with near infinite magical supplies that has it's own pocket universe? Bad Example. No but luckily we have Archimonde taking a powerful hit that blah blah you know the drill.

He was in the middle of the portal when he collapsed, I fail to see how he wasn't hit by the Implosion, that's like saying a guy that survived a ground zero nuclear bomb detonation, couldn't survive the effects following.

Originally posted by Utrigita
I have already mentioned and Becci further elaborated that Sargeras hasn't been hurted by anything besides nature magic, now it's up too you to provide proof to the contrary, I actually like the comparison A Axe infused with Natur Power can harm him but the implosion of a Portal that rips a world apart cannot. Nothing but nature power has been shown to harm him. I guess that means nothing else can! dur

No-Limits fallacy, Sargeras has never been hit with anyone near the sort of power that Pyron can dish out.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Nothing but nature power has been shown to harm him. I guess that means nothing else can! dur

No-Limits fallacy, Sargeras has never been hit with anyone near the sort of power that Pyron can dish out.

And what level of power would that be Jaxx? I'm standing here in my corner looking at my champion the dark Titan, working with the fact that only so far the power of a planet was capable of giving him a scrath, what do you have in your corner with Your Champion Pyron?

Originally posted by Utrigita
Of everything else that was shown in the Warcraft Universe, nothing could...

And what level of power would that be Jaxx? Nothing that has been used.

Countless galaxies according to a quote, enough power to absorb planets on a whim, and enough power to matter manipulate them into a ring.

Could you get me the proof?

I mean primarily the Galaxies, the Planets I know but he has to grow to absorb them correct? The matter manipulation too would be nice?

We are useing the Pyron that Utrigita is talking about.

I have no clue what Dark-Jaxx is talking about.

Thanks

Originally posted by Burning thought
Ime in a position to say what i like, since as i said, nothing so far implies means you dont have any proof or statements.

Everything implies? can yuo show me please this proof, since nothing in this thread implies that, I know your a terrible Proof finder but why dont you at least quote the exact text where it implies he was hit by the full power that sundered the world?

Then specify that you are talking about the thread and not the story, because you have a tendency to assume things about the lore that you actually have no clue of. If you want proof of this, like you want with everything else, I can bring forth quotes by you assuming things about lore.


Terrible proof finder? I apologize for not considering you worth the trouble of reading trough 1000 pages just because you are not happy with what you get from us. I post this with the sole reason of me knowing roughly which page it was on.


"The mouth of the maelstrom quivered, then lost cohesion. An explosion of energy erupted from the depth of the whirlpool.
The portal started to collapse.
One side after another, the fiery border surrounding it fell in upon itself. Sargeras attempted to reconstruct it, but by then, it had moved beyond even his power to do so. One precious second had stolen the demon lord's victory.
And then a thing happened that Krasus could never have dreamed possible. Sargeras, refusing to believe his defeated, stepped within the crumbling portal itself, trying both to rebuild it and cross through. His desire to do so proved his undoing. As the portal imploded, the demon lord found himself trapped. He could not flee, could not pull back. Dropping his sword, the titan even battered against the gateway with his fists, but to no avail. The corridor between realms shrank rapidly, at last crushing in on him"


This quotation show not only that he was in it when the explosion took place, but also when it imploded.

Don't worry. I have your back. Everything that Dark-Jaxx is talking about is shit that I have never heard of about him. He needs evidence to prove what he said. If not, it isn't real.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Nothing but nature power has been shown to harm him. I guess that means nothing else can! dur

No-Limits fallacy, Sargeras has never been hit with anyone near the sort of power that Pyron can dish out.

It is very reasonable thinking that when a weapon containing litteraly the power of a planet in the form of nature damage barely scratches him, that he could take the punch of something a mix between physical damage and fire (Which is Sargeras immunity). Nature damage is shown to be the only thing that has ever harmed Sargeras. Or Archimonde for that matter, which is a miniature Sargeras in every twistable aspect.

When Sargeras had gotten his scratch by Brox ax, Alexstrasza, Rhonin and Korialstrasz focused all their magic into one powerful blast upon the scratch which had opened a glitch in Sargeras elsewise indestructable body, Sargeras did not even feel it. Alexstrasza dwarfs Korialstrasz powers thousand fold (Official number), and Korialstrasz dwarves Rhonins powers, while Rhonin dwarfs Illidan's powers, and Illidan casted a spell that sundered the world.

I think you can, by that, imagine roughly how much power there is in an all-out blast by the red queen

Originally posted by Burning thought
beings below Kain, like his sons dont all have the same powers as Kain and Kain doesnt have their powers either, simply saying "well Sarg created this one, so he created this and etc etc etc" doesnt mean much unless you can prove Sarg can actually manip souls, his magic from what Ive read has never been heralded.

I compared Kains energy storage to the well,s which ofc is infnite.

The Twisting nether is a dimension? i realise the warlocks call beings from other realms but are they other dimensions or simply planes of reality? since not everything is a diffrent dimension.

Your Certain his soul will not be touched? how so? has he shown Soul invulerability?

Turning someone into atoms could be done using the concept of Energy, since beings bodies are functioned or made up of diffrent types of energy, a combinatio nof energy concept and states would do fine, althouh hes not done it, just like Sarg you assume he would have Fel powers since he invented it wouldnt you? so Kain has access to these powers infnitley due to his magical connection.

A timebolt that freezes beings yes.

Draining Sargeras Energy would be easy, Kain regulates magic, he would reduce Sarg to nothing.

Of course his sons does not have the same powers as Kain. Much like Sargeras creations doesnt have the same powers that Sargeras has. They have less, which they gained from a portion of his might. Well, Kil'Jaeden was blessed by Sargeras powers, just like how Lich King was blessed by the powers Kil'Jaeden got from Sargeras. Only one afraid of the truth would claim that Sargeras is not a more powerful version of said characters. We all know that Lich King's might is not absolute, since when Archimonde entered Azeroth he took control of the scourge.
If Sargeras entered Azeroth, heck, he would probably take control over Lich King. But if you want proof of Sargeras having soul capabilities, we can always bring up the example where Sargeras locked Medivh's soul away when he claimed his body. Or how he possessed Aegwynn. Or what he did to Xavius soul.

I do not see why I need to prove that Sargeras can manipulate souls anyway? It is not like you ever return a proof favor with any solid proof yourself to whatever you are put against the wall for.


It is true that, but infinite is not absolute when you are dealing with warcraft powers. Look at the Sunwell. Look at the Well of Eternity. Not even sources of infinite power is safe from a warcraft magician. Both infinite sources has been destroyed by mere mortals.


Not everything is different dimensions, but Twisting Nether is a seperate dimension to Azeroth, just like how Emerald Dream is one. Lich King sees two dimensions simultaneous, a spiritual and a material. Ragnaros and the other Elemental lords were banished into yet another dimension, called the Elemental Plane. The Great Dark is yet another. The Timestream is even that a seperate dimension, although co-existant with the material and spiritual planes of Azeroth. The great depth where the Old Gods were banished to is also another dimension. I have more, if you want


He has shown soul resistance during his conquest of the forces that one day would become the burning legion. He has also shown the capability to exist as nothign but a soul, keeping the soul together when it is supposed to be torn into pieces. Since not the Nathrezim, nor the Twisting Nether, or the activity of being inside someone else could destroy or even damage his soul, I would say that he has sufficient soul resistance to yawn at Kain's attempts to steal it.


I assume you can prove this? Because I know Kain has never turned anyone into atoms or stolen someones powers just like that. Dissolving someone into atoms is a far more bold speculation than anything so far speculated about Sargeras. And if anyone could steal anyones powers, it would be Sargeras that steals from Kain. Archimonde was to steal the essence of the Well of Eternity (Infinite), which is more proof that warcraft characters can steal powers from others than Kain has ever shown. I am not saying Sargeras would steal Kain's powers, only that it is more likely to go that way than have Kain steal Sargeras.


And has Kain ever frozen something of Sargeras size? Ah exactly, did not think so. This is exactly what you are using to try bring down Sargeras arguments. I would like you to prove to me that Kain can timefreeze someone so large that Kain is nothing but a flea. Much like how we can not prove that Sargeras can take the beating of someone Pyron's size, you can not prove that Kain can freeze someone Sargeras size. In fact, you can not even prove that Kain has what it takes to penetrate Sargeras skin with anything. Pyron delivering a lightspeed punch I can accept and probably agree would inflict damage, but any attempt by Kain would more likely than not be futile.


And what would prevent Sargeras from draining Kain of energy? Not to mention that the drain might not even apply to Sargeras, given the fact that life and energy draining can be resisted by Warcraft characters (And this is not WoW talk). Sargeras has the ability to drain energy as well. Can you show me Kain being able to resist energy drain? Because I can show warcraft characters far weaker than Sargeras resist energy drain.

Originally posted by Utrigita
Well then please explain to me what Fleas mean in the context? No but their most potent magical attacks is fel magic in nature and that fel magic is from Sargeras. And that Race was further amped by Sargeras.

And I know that no power beyond Natur has ever been shown capable of hurting Sargeras, that is the perimeter I work from, that no magical effect (except nature) ore Physical attack (powered in some way by a nature attack) is capable of harming Sargeras, If the Cosmic Fire ore whatever it is that Pyron is dancing around with is capable of doing it I have no idea, but I don't think so and it's correct that Sargeras has never been hit by a force of that magnitude... Wait the sundering that tore apart the world ore Malornes charge against Archimonde that rocked the earth... Again please show me the proof of Pyron in what ever size he is for this fight can with a physical punch shock the entire earth, then I will begin consider that Sargeras can be hurt by other then Natur magic, on a planetary scale.

There is some difference, The Living Tribunal is capable of harnessing magical powers far beyond any being on Azeroth, Galactus is capable of absorbing all kinds of energy and turns beings own power against them and can draw his energy from the Hyperspace the source all energy comes from including magic, and lastly Galactus heralds have shown that they can overwrite magical effect with their power cosmic, has Pyron ore Kain shown that they can overwrite the magical effect of a being with near infinite magical supplies that has it's own pocket universe? Bad Example. No but luckily we have Archimonde taking a powerful hit that blah blah you know the drill.

He was in the middle of the portal when he collapsed, I fail to see how he wasn't hit by the Implosion, that's like saying a guy that survived a ground zero nuclear bomb detonation, couldn't survive the effects following.

That they are far weaker than Sargeras. Just not ncesserily magically. Where does it say fel magic is their strongest power?

I dont have to show you anything Utrigos about a gas giant sized being that could put his hand through Azeroth like it was a wet paper bag, the very physical dimension of his size and volume would imediatley be logically higher than any power on Azeroth, he wouldnt "shake" the world, thats impossible when with a tap he would crumble it. What your asking would be like me asking if you can prove a 10,000 mile wide steel ball is heavier than a paper clip....

There is some diffrence, Pyron has more power and size within him than all of Azeroth or the Warcraft universe see what I did there? it was a fine example, an example of how beings far beyond Sargeras do not need to abide by your no limits fallacy of "he is not harmed by nature magikz so he is invulerables!".

sure if the proof is provided, it sounds like an overhype, I think the impoosion of the portal closing was simply what set the well of eternity off balance which caused the sundering or so ive read before now, not the portal itself ravaging the world.

Originally posted by Becci
1.It is very reasonable thinking that when a weapon containing litteraly the power of a planet in the form of nature damage barely scratches him, that he could take the punch of something a mix between physical damage and fire (Which is Sargeras immunity). Nature damage is shown to be the only thing that has ever harmed Sargeras. Or Archimonde for that matter, which is a miniature Sargeras in every twistable aspect.


2. I think you can, by that, imagine roughly how much power there is in an all-out blast by the red queen

1. no, not reasonable at all, one planet means nothing to the enormous gas giant Pyron is and moving at lightspeed into Sargeras too...i mean how is that even reasonable? dont you know the size of a Gas giant? perhaps this is where your loosing grips with this thing. Also you keep saying of a planet but only the nature aspect of it, its not the full power of the planets magic or anything of the sort.

2. A spell that took a fair cast time by illidan and required the eye of Sargeras? overall a worthless spell in any real combat.

Originally posted by Becci
Then specify that you are talking about the thread and not the story, because you have a tendency to assume things about the lore that you actually have no clue of. If you want proof of this, like you want with everything else, I can bring forth quotes by you assuming things about lore.


Terrible proof finder? I apologize for not considering you worth the trouble of reading trough 1000 pages just because you are not happy with what you get from us. I post this with the sole reason of me knowing roughly which page it was on.


"The mouth of the maelstrom quivered, then lost cohesion. An explosion of energy erupted from the depth of the whirlpool.
The portal started to collapse.
One side after another, the fiery border surrounding it fell in upon itself. Sargeras attempted to reconstruct it, but by then, it had moved beyond even his power to do so. One precious second had stolen the demon lord's victory.
And then a thing happened that Krasus could never have dreamed possible. Sargeras, refusing to believe his defeated, stepped within the crumbling portal itself, trying both to rebuild it and cross through. His desire to do so proved his undoing. As the portal imploded, the demon lord found himself trapped. He could not flee, could not pull back. Dropping his sword, the titan even battered against the gateway with his fists, but to no avail. The corridor between realms shrank rapidly, at last crushing in on him"


This quotation show not only that he was in it when the explosion took place, but also when it imploded.

You see this is why I need to ask for proof, as youve shown before your lack of understanding of things you read seem to blur with your overhyping, nowhere in that quote does it say Sargeras was hit by the power of the sundering or anything like it, the sundering happened when the WoE was knocked out by the portal when it closed completly, all that happens in that quote is Sargeras is locked and stuck for a while, showing his foolery and pathetic nature overall.

Originally posted by Becci
Of course his sons does not have the same powers as Kain. Much like Sargeras creations doesnt have the same powers that Sargeras has. They have less, which they gained from a portion of his might. Well, Kil'Jaeden was blessed by Sargeras powers, just like how Lich King was blessed by the powers Kil'Jaeden got from Sargeras. Only one afraid of the truth would claim that Sargeras is not a more powerful version of said characters. We all know that Lich King's might is not absolute, since when Archimonde entered Azeroth he took control of the scourge.
If Sargeras entered Azeroth, heck, he would probably take control over Lich King. But if you want proof of Sargeras having soul capabilities, we can always bring up the example where Sargeras locked Medivh's soul away when he claimed his body. Or how he possessed Aegwynn. Or what he did to Xavius soul.

I do not see why I need to prove that Sargeras can manipulate souls anyway? It is not like you ever return a proof favor with any solid proof yourself to whatever you are put against the wall for.


It is true that, but infinite is not absolute when you are dealing with warcraft powers. Look at the Sunwell. Look at the Well of Eternity. Not even sources of infinite power is safe from a warcraft magician. Both infinite sources has been destroyed by mere mortals.


Not everything is different dimensions, but Twisting Nether is a seperate dimension to Azeroth, just like how Emerald Dream is one. Lich King sees two dimensions simultaneous, a spiritual and a material. Ragnaros and the other Elemental lords were banished into yet another dimension, called the Elemental Plane. The Great Dark is yet another. The Timestream is even that a seperate dimension, although co-existant with the material and spiritual planes of Azeroth. The great depth where the Old Gods were banished to is also another dimension. I have more, if you want


He has shown soul resistance during his conquest of the forces that one day would become the burning legion. He has also shown the capability to exist as nothign but a soul, keeping the soul together when it is supposed to be torn into pieces. Since not the Nathrezim, nor the Twisting Nether, or the activity of being inside someone else could destroy or even damage his soul, I would say that he has sufficient soul resistance to yawn at Kain's attempts to steal it.


I assume you can prove this? Because I know Kain has never turned anyone into atoms or stolen someones powers just like that. Dissolving someone into atoms is a far more bold speculation than anything so far speculated about Sargeras. And if anyone could steal anyones powers, it would be Sargeras that steals from Kain. Archimonde was to steal the essence of the Well of Eternity (Infinite), which is more proof that warcraft characters can steal powers from others than Kain has ever shown. I am not saying Sargeras would steal Kain's powers, only that it is more likely to go that way than have Kain steal Sargeras.


And has Kain ever frozen something of Sargeras size? Ah exactly, did not think so. This is exactly what you are using to try bring down Sargeras arguments. I would like you to prove to me that Kain can timefreeze someone so large that Kain is nothing but a flea. Much like how we can not prove that Sargeras can take the beating of someone Pyron's size, you can not prove that Kain can freeze someone Sargeras size. In fact, you can not even prove that Kain has what it takes to penetrate Sargeras skin with anything. Pyron delivering a lightspeed punch I can accept and probably agree would inflict damage, but any attempt by Kain would more likely than not be futile.


And what would prevent Sargeras from draining Kain of energy? Not to mention that the drain might not even apply to Sargeras, given the fact that life and energy draining can be resisted by Warcraft characters (And this is not WoW talk). Sargeras has the ability to drain energy as well. Can you show me Kain being able to resist energy drain? Because I can show warcraft characters far weaker than Sargeras resist energy drain.

no you didnt read what I said, I said Kain doesnt have his sons powers either....thus your creations can have diffrent powers than the cretor, so his soul powers amount to taking over an infant thats not even born with your corruption?...great...

err, a completly unfounded statement ,I provide proof for almost anything and everything that is worthy of proof, point out where I dont please?

yes so.....so magicians can destroy the source of the well of eternity, that still does not change the WoE energy was infnite.

I concede to trapping sargaras in a dimension likely to be impossible.

erm not really unless you can prove he was actually stricken by a Soul power or spell? you need to prove he was actually hit by soul powers, all of those "feats" your calling resistance are nothing of the sort, his soul control doent mean his soul is resistant to being consumed or otherwise.

No you know correctly, hes never actually done it, but its among his capabilities, he has connecton to all the pillars now, including states which includes the state of things, allowing those who control that pillar to control matter and such, he could also control energy to a similiar extent ,ive already shown proof for this 100 times over about Kains connectio to the pillars. What particulour proof are you asking for?

Steal from Kain? no, Archimonde simply dipping into the power of the Well of Eternity is nothing to do with stealing powers, he was simply draining the energy, its just a fonrt of energy he could connect to...its nothing like "stealing" anything tbh. Kain woud use his regulation of magic to simply make Sargeras a non magical being...

Has Sargeras ever shown time resistance of any measure, and also give me logical reasoning why time bolt which is not much bigger than kains hand and can freeze much bigger creatures in LOK would be restricted because Sargeras is larger? thats like me saying can you prove Sargaras kill creatures that are yellow, perhaps their colour randomly makes them immune, perhaps Kain being the colour that he is makes him immune? how about has Sargeras ever defeated someone with Voradors ring through their ear? no...dint think so...
Also Kains range of time control/freezing would be infnite in this battle.

Kain doesnt need to or require resistance to energy Drain ,as i said, his energy is limitless like the WoE, you cannot drain an infnite source, it would be pointless, Kain on the other hand does not drain, he regulates, he would simply deem Sargaras unworthy of magic usage and remove it from him, not drain.

BT, Becci and Utrigita, you 3 type essays for every single post.

Originally posted by Burning thought
That they are far weaker than Sargeras. Just not ncesserily magically. Where does it say fel magic is their strongest power?

I dont have to show you anything Utrigos about a gas giant sized being that could put his hand through Azeroth like it was a wet paper bag, the very physical dimension of his size and volume would imediatley be logically higher than any power on Azeroth, he wouldnt "shake" the world, thats impossible when with a tap he would crumble it. What your asking would be like me asking if you can prove a 10,000 mile wide steel ball is heavier than a paper clip....

There is some diffrence, Pyron has more power and size within him than all of Azeroth or the Warcraft universe see what I did there? it was a fine example, an example of how beings far beyond Sargeras do not need to abide by your no limits fallacy of "he is not harmed by nature magikz so he is invulerables!".

sure if the proof is provided, it sounds like an overhype, I think the impoosion of the portal closing was simply what set the well of eternity off balance which caused the sundering or so ive read before now, not the portal itself ravaging the world.



1. no, not reasonable at all, one planet means nothing to the enormous gas giant Pyron is and moving at lightspeed into Sargeras too...i mean how is that even reasonable? dont you know the size of a Gas giant? perhaps this is where your loosing grips with this thing. Also you keep saying of a planet but only the nature aspect of it, its not the full power of the planets magic or anything of the sort.

2. A spell that took a fair cast time by illidan and required the eye of Sargeras? overall a worthless spell in any real combat.



You see this is why I need to ask for proof, as youve shown before your lack of understanding of things you read seem to blur with your overhyping, nowhere in that quote does it say Sargeras was hit by the power of the sundering or anything like it, the sundering happened when the WoE was knocked out by the portal when it closed completly, all that happens in that quote is Sargeras is locked and stuck for a while, showing his foolery and pathetic nature overall.

In fact, they are like fleas when it comes to power over Sargeras. The book says: "In comparison to Sargeras, both Archimonde and Mannoroth were as fleas. The power of a hundred dragons would have been as nothing to him", this along with the rest of the page clearly implicate that power and magic is the subject of which Krasus speak.


Good thing Sargeras is more endurant than Azeroth then. The fact that Pyron is big has significance, but just because he is big does not automaticly mean he can harm Sargeras. Why is it you think that Sargeras is so vulnerable to Pyron's punches? Because he is smaller? Kain is even smaller and yet you claim him able to protect himself against Pryon with his shield. Quit being so hypocritic, and yes, I know you will now bring up the whole "indestructable" thing. But newsflash to you: Sargeras is claimed indestructable as well. Much like how Superman is vulnerable to magic, Sargeras is vulnerable to nature magic. Something Pyron does not have. In fact, that is not even true. Sargeras is only vulnerable to immortal magic, which was exactly what the Ax of Brox was. Imbued with immortal magic (The magic of Kalimdor dwelled within the Ax, as stated by narrator. The greatest druids of all times imbued it with the power of Azeroth and Elune)


More power? Not at all. Compared to the top tier, Pyron is dwarfed in power. He is more dangerous than anything Warcraft can spit out, though, this is true. He is far from more powerful though. Pyron has more size, which is the only reason team one would win this fight if they did. An equal-sized Pyron or a 20% Pyron would never oppose the threat our several planet-sizes Pyron can.


Excuse me? The Well of Eternity and the Demon Soul were bound to the portal! It was when the portal imploded that the world 'ended' as the so gently book said. The implosion brought the disasterious effect on the planet, when it imploded. But this is not of significance though, since while weak characters survived being present at the sundering, Sargeras survived while actually being in the middle of the implosion.


1. Geesh! A Gas Giant does not have a specific size. If you want to try accuse me for not knowing how big a gas giant is, I suggest you stop right there. Do you take me for an idiot? A gas giant has no set size, so if you are trying to prove a Pyron point by bringing the term gas giant into things here, you failed. Utterly.
The Ax of Brox was by narrator said to contain the magic of Kalimdor, granted them by the Goddess Elune.

2. The Eye of Sargeras? What are you? Desperate? There was no Eye of Sargeras at the time in Azeroth. Illidan interveened in the portal process with the weaving of a spell himself, and maybe an hour later he was the official destroyer of the planet. There were no fancy artifacts for him to use. It was just him, the spells he knew and the blessing he had been granted by Sargeras. Sure Illidan's spell would be useless in combat, but that is not my point.


Are you blind?: "As the portal imploded, the demon lord found himself trapped. He could not flee, could not pull back. Dropping his sword, the titan even battered against the gateway with his fists, but to no avail. The corridor between realms shrank rapidly, at last crushing in on him". Sargeras was literally inside the portal when it crushed inwards by an implosion. IMPLOSION! CRUSHING!

Implosion: Implosion is a process in which objects are destroyed by collapsing in on themselves. The opposite of explosion, implosion concentrates matter and energy. An example of implosion is a submarine being crushed from the outside by the hydrostatic pressure of the surrounding water. A violent compression.

Crushing: To bring to an end forcibly as if by imposing a heavy weight. To press forcefully so as to break up into a pulpy mass. To break up into tiny particles.


I assume you already know that when a star goes supernova, it implodes. As is it a key part to the rise of neutron stars and black holes. Of course you do. I am also sure you have a perfect explanation ready to be used on how Sargeras will die by Pyron's punch while he survived being in the center of an implosion.

Originally posted by Wil7
BT, Becci and Utrigita, you 3 type essays for every single post.

An essay is far longer 9 out of 10 cases, but you with your awesome grades know this already Is there anything you would like to add to everything?

Originally posted by Becci
An essay is far longer 9 out of 10 cases, but you with your awesome grades know this already haermm

Originally posted by Utrigita
Could you get me the proof?

I mean primarily the Galaxies, the Planets I know but he has to grow to absorb them correct? The matter manipulation too would be nice? Ah shit.

I actually mis-remembered sumthin I read, it says he devoured countless worlds, and the galaxies thing I got from was that on his travels he turned his eyes to other galaxies and stars. My bad.

The matter manipulation is hard to prove simply because there is no vid of it. You have seen the pic where he is using Earth as a ring right?

Originally posted by Becci
It is very reasonable thinking that when a weapon containing litteraly the power of a planet in the form of nature damage barely scratches him, that he could take the punch of something a mix between physical damage and fire (Which is Sargeras immunity). Nature damage is shown to be the only thing that has ever harmed Sargeras. Or Archimonde for that matter, which is a miniature Sargeras in every twistable aspect.

When Sargeras had gotten his scratch by Brox ax, Alexstrasza, Rhonin and Korialstrasz focused all their magic into one powerful blast upon the scratch which had opened a glitch in Sargeras elsewise indestructable body, Sargeras did not even feel it. Alexstrasza dwarfs Korialstrasz powers thousand fold (Official number), and Korialstrasz dwarves Rhonins powers, while Rhonin dwarfs Illidan's powers, and Illidan casted a spell that sundered the world.

I think you can, by that, imagine roughly how much power there is in an all-out blast by the red queen 1. It LITERALLY has the power of the entire world, or just all the power of "Earth," The nature magic in other words? Also, one other thing, I assume said character without the axe is not very physically strong, it was totally the axe's doing correct? The damage I mean. Well, since Pyron possesses more power and can hit harder, he will do more damage than a weakling(in comparison) with a powerful weapon.

Fire is Sargeras' immunity? Well...It's not like all of Pyron's attacks even use fire really, his strongest attack is probably Cosmic Disruption in-game, and that has no trace of fire at all. And saying nature damage is all that can hurt Sargeras is in fact a No-Limits fallacy. Pyron possesses more power than all of the Scourse, the Horde, the Alliance, and the current Burning Legion combined(barring Sargeras himself), Arichmonde and Kiljaedan are as nothing to him.

Illidan casted a spell with a special artifact did he not? He does not have constant access to all that power at all times from what I have seen.

...Not really, no. haermm

Originally posted by Becci
An essay is far longer 9 out of 10 cases, but you with your awesome grades know this already Is there anything you would like to add to everything?

It is an expression, and my grades have nothing to do with it. An essay is considered to be 5 or more paragraphs long. You have surpassed that, technically if you are counting 5 sen. per paragraph. And just because I say the word "Essay" doesn't mean you have to get on my case about it. All in all, I have nothing to add.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
1. It LITERALLY has the power of the entire world, or just all the power of "Earth," The nature magic in other words? Also, one other thing, I assume said character without the axe is not very physically strong, it was totally the axe's doing correct? The damage I mean. Well, since Pyron possesses more power and can hit harder, he will do more damage than a weakling(in comparison) with a powerful weapon.

Fire is Sargeras' immunity? Well...It's not like all of Pyron's attacks even use fire really, his strongest attack is probably Cosmic Disruption in-game, and that has no trace of fire at all. And saying nature damage is all that can hurt Sargeras is in fact a No-Limits fallacy. Pyron possesses more power than all of the Scourse, the Horde, the Alliance, and the current Burning Legion combined(barring Sargeras himself), Arichmonde and Kiljaedan are as nothing to him.

Illidan casted a spell with a special artifact did he not? He does not have constant access to all that power at all times from what I have seen.

...Not really, no. haermm

Narrator claim various different things of Brox's Ax during the book. That it has the power of Elune, that it has he power of nature itself and also claims that the weapon is imbued with the power of Kalimdor. It is actually never specified that nature damage is the factor, but given the fact that two druids imbued it, nature damage is the most likely factor of the weapon.

The swinger of the Ax is in this perspective very weak. While he was incredibly strong for a mortal, compared to Sargeras and Pyron he is nothing. The act of Sargeras scratch was to a hundred percent the doing of the weapon. According to Krasus, it was a miracle that Sargeras was even scraped, even by a weapon of such might: "A small slash mark decorated his right leg, a mark that Krasus's keen eyes recognizedas made by an ax. Brox's ax. Impossible as it seemed, the enhanced weapon had scratched Sargeras.
Had Krasus sought to strike Sargeras directly, either in the chest or head, the results would have been laughable, at least to the demon lord. That Brox had managed his miraculous attack at all said much of the power imbued in the weapon by the druid and his shan'do"

I personally do not think I have said that only nature damage can harm Sargeras. Only that nature damage is the only thing that ever has. If I at whatever point claimed that Sargeras can not be harmed with anything else than nature damage, I take it back. What I do not take back, is that I do not think Pyron has what it takes to kill Sargeras.


And Illidan is a known master ritualist. Follow his process troughout War of the Ancients, Warcraft 3 and World of Warcraft, then you will see. Illidan, whilst not in the league of the War of the Ancients party, is rather powerful. And during the sundering, Illidan used no artifact. He intercepted in the weaving that was done to the Demon Soul. That was the only artifact that was involved, but he did not use it.


No? Darn haermm

Originally posted by Becci
In fact, they are like fleas when it comes to power over Sargeras. The book says: "In comparison to Sargeras, both Archimonde and Mannoroth were as fleas. The power of a hundred dragons would have been as nothing to him", this along with the rest of the page clearly implicate that power and magic is the subject of which Krasus speak.


Good thing Sargeras is more endurant than Azeroth then. The fact that Pyron is big has significance, but just because he is big does not automaticly mean he can harm Sargeras. Why is it you think that Sargeras is so vulnerable to Pyron's punches? Because he is smaller? Kain is even smaller and yet you claim him able to protect himself against Pryon with his shield. Quit being so hypocritic, and yes, I know you will now bring up the whole "indestructable" thing. But newsflash to you: Sargeras is claimed indestructable as well. Much like how Superman is vulnerable to magic, Sargeras is vulnerable to nature magic. Something Pyron does not have. In fact, that is not even true. Sargeras is only vulnerable to immortal magic, which was exactly what the Ax of Brox was. Imbued with immortal magic (The magic of Kalimdor dwelled within the Ax, as stated by narrator. The greatest druids of all times imbued it with the power of Azeroth and Elune)


More power? Not at all. Compared to the top tier, Pyron is dwarfed in power. He is more dangerous than anything Warcraft can spit out, though, this is true. He is far from more powerful though. Pyron has more size, which is the only reason team one would win this fight if they did. An equal-sized Pyron or a 20% Pyron would never oppose the threat our several planet-sizes Pyron can.


Excuse me? The Well of Eternity and the Demon Soul were bound to the portal! It was when the portal imploded that the world 'ended' as the so gently book said. The implosion brought the disasterious effect on the planet, when it imploded. But this is not of significance though, since while weak characters survived being present at the sundering, Sargeras survived while actually being in the middle of the implosion.


1. Geesh! A Gas Giant does not have a specific size. If you want to try accuse me for not knowing how big a gas giant is, I suggest you stop right there. Do you take me for an idiot? A gas giant has no set size, so if you are trying to prove a Pyron point by bringing the term gas giant into things here, you failed. Utterly.
The Ax of Brox was by narrator said to contain the magic of Kalimdor, granted them by the Goddess Elune.

2. The Eye of Sargeras? What are you? Desperate? There was no Eye of Sargeras at the time in Azeroth. Illidan interveened in the portal process with the weaving of a spell himself, and maybe an hour later he was the official destroyer of the planet. There were no fancy artifacts for him to use. It was just him, the spells he knew and the blessing he had been granted by Sargeras. Sure Illidan's spell would be useless in combat, but that is not my point.


Are you blind?: "As the portal imploded, the demon lord found himself trapped. He could not flee, could not pull back. Dropping his sword, the titan even battered against the gateway with his fists, but to no avail. The corridor between realms shrank rapidly, at last crushing in on him". Sargeras was literally inside the portal when it crushed inwards by an implosion. IMPLOSION! CRUSHING!

Implosion: Implosion is a process in which objects are destroyed by collapsing in on themselves. The opposite of explosion, implosion concentrates matter and energy. An example of implosion is a submarine being crushed from the outside by the hydrostatic pressure of the surrounding water. A violent compression.

Crushing: To bring to an end forcibly as if by imposing a heavy weight. To press forcefully so as to break up into a pulpy mass. To break up into tiny particles.


I assume you already know that when a star goes supernova, it implodes. As is it a key part to the rise of neutron stars and black holes. Of course you do. I am also sure you have a perfect explanation ready to be used on how Sargeras will die by Pyron's punch while he survived being in the center of an implosion.

That shows how you exaggerate as well, 100 dragons? thats puny, whats a 100 dragons to Pyron? nothing....even Archimonde can kill an adult dragon with a gesture or so you like saying so either the books view of them being as "fleas" to him is simply an overexageration or when they claim 100 dragons they mean aspect dragons, either way this is not evident, 100 dragons lol, shows how weak sarg is really since although it claims they would be as nothing to him, I wouldnt be surprised if they would be very little to Archimonde or Kiljaeden either, least of all Pyron.

Ime not hypocritic at all, Sargeras does not have access to infnite magic nor does he have access to Kains repel shield so ime not being hypocritical at all if Kain has better ways of surviving than Sargeras. Sargeras is claimed which is then proven wrong as soon as Brox axe makes a scratch, thus he is not indestructable.


Dwarfed in power? explain?....I wouldnt be surprised if Pyron could wipe ut the Pantheon with fair ease, sure their featless so its a bit unfair but still they are simply planet builders, not even real warriors. Not really, Team one could win with Kain alone since this is full powered Kain, as before he would just drain Sargeras into a non magic being then with all his power gone it would be like clubbing baby seals for Kain.

No the portal brought about the knocking of the Well of Eternity, the well exploded because of the implosion, which happened not long after the implsiion when Sarg was already trapped...as you said he was not struck by the actual sundering exploding WoE, not to mention as you just said many weake beings survived the sundering anyway so its hardly an endurance feat for Sarg.

1. Its enormous, as Dark Jaxx has said before Pyron is larger than his home planet which was apprntly bigger than Jupitor. Yes the axe was powered by several druids and Elune, this doesnt mean much to Pyron who is more destructively powerful than all Warcraft.

2. I was referring to when he broke the top of the world in FF, but more importantly you said earlier that there was more than just Illidan chanelling the portal, hell Malfurion helped did he not? And he did not destroy the planet ,just broke two continents in half, most of the magic being created by specific sources such as Sarg, the evil queen whos name escapes me and the biggie, the real sunder of the world, the WoE.....Illidan just messed up teh portal, it was no massive feat of magic that he destroyed the world since it wasnt actually him destroying it.

No ime not blind, I just dont overhype Sargeras, as it says the implosion, but nothing about the power of teh sundering ,As i said before it was the WoE that sundered the world and surviving the sundering woudlnt be impressive anyway, Sarg was just trapped between the portal.

So now your comparing the power of the portal to a supernova or something? no because that would of vaporised Azeroth and Sargeras, fortuatley it was not a blckhole or supernova, implisions are diffrent, Sargeras merely survived a mortal closing in on him, whos power is unkown.

Alright, I am tired of your assumptions and pretended knowledge of warcraft. Before I quit having this debate with you, there are some things I will point out that you can answer to if you like and hope someone else to respond to. If nothing else, and although, as Krasus said, "it is too much for hope for", you might learn something:


1. Here's a math fact for you: Nothing = Zero. So while the book stated 100, they could as well have stated 500 or more. The reason the number 100 were brought up, is because 100 dragons is a more decent amount in the warcraft universe. While 100 is an acceptable amount, 500 is a fictional amount. An illogical number. Azeroth could and did scrape together 100 dragons, but having 500 is impossible. Just like how they did not bring Kil'Jaeden, or any other powerful Burning Legion member into the 'fleas' example, they only brought up a 100 dragons rather than bringing up a higher amount. Because at the current situation, anything else was fictional to the Warcraft universe.


2. You are right. Archimonde, the one who crushed an adult dragon by grasping his fist is nothing but a flea compared to Sargeras. Keep in mind that the crushed dragon is blue, and resilient to magic.


3. How is it weak to be Sargeras when a hundred dragons is NOTHING to him (100*0=0)? When the unstoppable Demi-God slayer Archimonde is nothing but a flea? I do not know how you can call 100 dragons being nothing for weak. NOTHING is a limitless term in this sentence, meaning that all we know is that 100 dragons would just be nothing compared to him. This quote could, and if it was about Kain, by you, would be used to say that even a 1000 dragons would be pathetic, since dragons of high numbers has already been compared to as if nothing.


4. Sargeras is not indestructable, you are right. We have seen this by Brox Ax in action. And how exactly do you know that Brox's Ax would not penetrate Kain's shield? Exactly, you have no such proof and you can know no such thing. Brox's weapon is of immortal nature and defies what elsewise should be impossible. You are using Legacy of Kain logic, so there is nothing stopping me from using Warcraft logic. But you of course will decline this, and prove that you are hypocritic. Nah, you will admit no such thing now that I have spoiled everything, but that is EXACTLY how you debate. You are allowed to deny it, but any one person on this forum can confirm this. You use fictional logic from Kain's universe but decline fictional logic from other universes. You debate as if LoK is the center of logic and the judge of what is possible and not.

As always, you are being a high-quality, grade A, prime cut, pure, blind hypocritic. The Warcraft universe can destroy the immovable (And I am not only talking about Brox's Ax). If Kain was introduced to a blue dragon, his shield would never hold. If you say it would hold against a blue dragon dispel, you, again, will bring up how hypocritic you are. Sure, I know this post is twistable in my direction, but let me tell you this: Kain's shield is like a paladin's bubble. Spoken in quote, by narrators, by official sources and proven in game to be indestructable. The only reason Kain has never had his shield fail, is because LoK lack the components to budge it. Warcraft does not. There is no such thing as an immovable object. Only degrees of endurance and durability.


5. You really are not listening. Pyron is dwarfed in power, but dwarfes them in danger. I would love to see Pyron create time. I would love to see Pyron create the skies of a planet. I would love to see Pyron create sources of limitless power. I would love to see Pyron imprison the most powerful entities in the universe. I would love to see Pyron control the concept of magic. You really do not get it, do you? Pyron could never beat the Pantheon. The Pantheon would never beat him either, because they are not like that, but Pyron lack the means to destroy them. Aman'Thul alone could make the entire Pantheon safe from Pyron for an eternity. Eonar could bring fallen companions back to life whenever she so desire. Norgannon could create forcefields of massive magnitude. Pyron may be more dangerous than them, but he is not more powerful. He is dwarfed in actual power. He would crush anyone in a matter of direct combat though.


6. And Kain would be able to drain Sargeras.... how? I have already told you that characters far lesser than Sargeras has resisted both life and energy draining. This is even in canon, and not stupid gameplay. I can bring solid proof of this (I will not, since I have no intentions of responding to a possible response by you in this matter. Instead I will point you in the direction of War of the Ancients, Rise of the Horde and Sunwell Triology, where you will get example of both life drain and energy drain being resisted). But of course, since you will be using Kain logic, Sargeras can not possibly resist. You will completely blind your way past any proof of resistance that Warcraft characters can bring out against draining abilities, since Kain's powers are "absolute". Yet another hypocritic point of yours. While other characters would fail doing the same thing to Kain, Kain himself can do it to anyone he wishes with a snap of his fingers. And one thing above all: Kain, based on feats, is a pathetic caster compared to the majority of the significant casters in the Warcraft universe.


7. This show exactly how little you know of what you talk, and this is probably the reason why people that do know about Warcraft find it so frustrating to debate you. You, once again, have made things up because it sounds most logical to you that way. The Well never exploded. It imploded, just like the portal, and the portal was supposed to crush Sargeras while doing so, but did not. You do know what crushing and implosion means, dont you? Thats what I thought. There are very few characters that can say that they survived being in the center of an energy implosion, and while the walls by all logic should have crushed me, they did not, due to my durability.


8. This is interesting. Because as far as I recall, we have never gotten proof of it being larger than Jupiter. I also recall you have tried to get proof of this, but they have failed to provide it. Yet, now, here that you debate for Pyron against Sargeras, it is all of a sudden acceptable that the planet was larger than Jupiter. This is just another example of the person currently known as Hypocrit Burning Thought. You use loose grounds when it suits your argument. Since when have you blindly believed everything Dark-Jaxx have said? I'll tell you when. Since it suited you. When have you questioned everything Dark-Jaxx have said? When it was against the character you speak for. Yes, Pyron is large, but we have gotten no proof of him being Jupiter size or larger. So quit being the desperate anti-Sargeras boy and try see fact as they are, rather than how you want them to be.


9. And your at it again. "Pyron is more than anything in Warcraft. He is automaticly enough to destroy Sargeras", well guess what. If Pyron is more than anything in Warcraft, he is more than anything in LoK and he can automaticly destroy that as well. You will, as always, decline this of course. Be my guest. My words are spoken, and if he is more than all of Warcraft, he definately is more than all of LoK. Entities of Warcraft has shown far more incredible endurance, strength, magic and intelligence feats than anyone in LoK, so by default, Pyron can not only destroy Warcraft, but LoK. This is by your logic. Sounds reasonable, doesnt it? ... ... ... No, it really doesnt. Get real!

10. Malfurion did not help. Where do you get your facts from? If it's WoWWiki, I suggest you stop visiting it, because if WoWWiki says Illidan got help, whoever wrote the wiki article is lying. On the contruary, Illidan was not allowed to take part but did so anyway. He worked against Malfurion, against Sargeras, against the Highbourne, against the Old Gods. Against the Demon Soul. He was all alone. Artifactless. He had to break trough several sources to apply his weaving. And no, you are right, he did not destroy the planet. I merely said what the book said. While the planet remained, the habitants did not quite look at it that way.


11. He did not break two continents apart. He caused a third of the land on the planet to crumble. It wasnt ripped apart. It just happened that two parts of land remained, forming two continents with a third resting below sea-level. It is true that Well of Eternity was the real source of the sundering, but it would not have been if it werent for Illidan. A carpenter needs tools.


12. Crushed within the imploding portal, you mean right? Yeah, that's what I thought. It is not overhype to claim that he survived being crushed by an imploding portal, because that was exactly what he did. The energies of the Demon Soul, the Well of Eternity and all the spells that were in motion compressed everything around Sargeras. The walls that closed in on Sargeras were solid, therefore making surviving the implosion and crushing a very impressive feat: "He struggled to keep the way open, the interior of the gate aflame from his titanic efforts. And then, with the demon lord still shouting his rage and beating at the walls . . .". The portal was not some mere doorway. It had turned into a shrinking cage that crushed him. Perhaps you want me to bring up the crushing part again: "The corridor between realms shrank rapidly, at last crushing in on him"


13. Unknown. There you have the magical word. How can you say it is a weak feat when it is an unknown. We know the following things: Sargeras was crushed by the shrinking. The portal held realms apart. The actual sundering was only a side-effect. Why would Azeroth be vaporized by an effect that was taking place in a different realm? When Krasus stared at Sargeras in the portal, he was looking into another dimension. To claim that Azeroth would fall victim of what happens in that dimension is illogical. And I am not comparing this to a supernova. I am comparing it to the implosion that create a supernova. The compression of a star.


14. The closing of the portal was, stated by narrator, absolute. Irreversable. Impossible to counter. Being absolute means that it can not be altered by any means, and that the result is only a matter of time. Yet, Sargeras held it open before eventually being crushed by it. Anything that has an absolute outcome is by default INCREDIBLY powerful. Yet, Sargeras for a time held this absolute power on bay. I would say that it is a little more than just an "unknown". It is an unknown with a BASE. A base sufficient enough to calculate an estimated power. Has Pyron ever tried contradicting something that is absolute? Sargeras survived an absolute compression that was brought upon him with solid walls.

And in case we have all forgotten our precious gas giant, here he is:


http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee224/Pyronftw/03.jpg

Originally posted by Becci
Alright, I am tired of your assumptions and pretended knowledge of warcraft. Before I quit having this debate with you, there are some things I will point out that you can answer to if you like and hope someone else to respond to. If nothing else, and although, as Krasus said, "it is too much for hope for", you might learn something:


1. Here's a math fact for you: Nothing = Zero. So while the book stated 100, they could as well have stated 500 or more. The reason the number 100 were brought up, is because 100 dragons is a more decent amount in the warcraft universe. While 100 is an acceptable amount, 500 is a fictional amount. An illogical number. Azeroth could and did scrape together 100 dragons, but having 500 is impossible. Just like how they did not bring Kil'Jaeden, or any other powerful Burning Legion member into the 'fleas' example, they only brought up a 100 dragons rather than bringing up a higher amount. Because at the current situation, anything else was fictional to the Warcraft universe.


2. You are right. Archimonde, the one who crushed an adult dragon by grasping his fist is nothing but a flea compared to Sargeras. Keep in mind that the crushed dragon is blue, and resilient to magic.


3. How is it weak to be Sargeras when a hundred dragons is NOTHING to him (100*0=0)? When the unstoppable Demi-God slayer Archimonde is nothing but a flea? I do not know how you can call 100 dragons being nothing for weak. NOTHING is a limitless term in this sentence, meaning that all we know is that 100 dragons would just be nothing compared to him. This quote could, and if it was about Kain, by you, would be used to say that even a 1000 dragons would be pathetic, since dragons of high numbers has already been compared to as if nothing.


4. Sargeras is not indestructable, you are right. We have seen this by Brox Ax in action. And how exactly do you know that Brox's Ax would not penetrate Kain's shield? Exactly, you have no such proof and you can know no such thing. Brox's weapon is of immortal nature and defies what elsewise should be impossible. You are using Legacy of Kain logic, so there is nothing stopping me from using Warcraft logic. But you of course will decline this, and prove that you are hypocritic. Nah, you will admit no such thing now that I have spoiled everything, but that is EXACTLY how you debate. You are allowed to deny it, but any one person on this forum can confirm this. You use fictional logic from Kain's universe but decline fictional logic from other universes. You debate as if LoK is the center of logic and the judge of what is possible and not.

As always, you are being a high-quality, grade A, prime cut, pure, blind hypocritic. The Warcraft universe can destroy the immovable (And I am not only talking about Brox's Ax). If Kain was introduced to a blue dragon, his shield would never hold. If you say it would hold against a blue dragon dispel, you, again, will bring up how hypocritic you are. Sure, I know this post is twistable in my direction, but let me tell you this: Kain's shield is like a paladin's bubble. Spoken in quote, by narrators, by official sources and proven in game to be indestructable. The only reason Kain has never had his shield fail, is because LoK lack the components to budge it. Warcraft does not. There is no such thing as an immovable object. Only degrees of endurance and durability.


5. You really are not listening. Pyron is dwarfed in power, but dwarfes them in danger. I would love to see Pyron create time. I would love to see Pyron create the skies of a planet. I would love to see Pyron create sources of limitless power. I would love to see Pyron imprison the most powerful entities in the universe. I would love to see Pyron control the concept of magic. You really do not get it, do you? Pyron could never beat the Pantheon. The Pantheon would never beat him either, because they are not like that, but Pyron lack the means to destroy them. Aman'Thul alone could make the entire Pantheon safe from Pyron for an eternity. Eonar could bring fallen companions back to life whenever she so desire. Norgannon could create forcefields of massive magnitude. Pyron may be more dangerous than them, but he is not more powerful. He is dwarfed in actual power. He would crush anyone in a matter of direct combat though.




Ime tired of your bent approach to everything to bending things in Warcraft lore to make it sound more impressive than it is, especially when not everyone has access to your source so were simply going by blind faith of you that when you tell us Sargeras can survive the sundering power explosion we belive it, but not me, ill simply ask for proof, you provide a quote that doesnt say anything about him being hit by any great force, just your assumptions. I dont think i could learn anything from you since most of your main points are assumptions from your end. But run away instead of conceding, its too obvious Team 1 wins.

1. Math fact or not, regardless they could say 1000 dragons would be nothing, but still, they do not, 100 they brought up, usually when you bring up numbers like 100, they use it as a form of impressive amount to emphasis that 100 dragons would mean nothing to Sarg, however they would mean nothing to many beings, theres no cold hard evidence that would suggest Sarg is truly over the power of Archimonde to extent he is a flea, just a hyperbolic statement since Sarg himself has shown very little in the way of actual feats to make him above in magic or anything else.

2. A flea in waht however? Sargeras chose the Eredar as the generals of his army, he may be a fool of a being but either way, he would not employ fleas, infact I think it says he was attracted by their impressive magic.

3. unstoppable Archimonde? riiiigghtt......we know how that panned out, another overhype, you like to use words to overhype your characters, mayvbe ill simply say "the Godlike Kain" to win arguments in the future...no..

100 dragons being mentioned however makes it seem that they would in theory be impressve against other forces when 100 dragons would only be imrpessive from the eyes of lesser forces.

4. I know it wouldnt penetrate because Kains magic is limitless and is powering the shield, thus its an impassable object by all logical means. Ime not using just LOK logic, ime using LOK feats of the shield and capabilties combined with overall logic in general of the real world, infnitive power in defence= infnite defence, its so simple...

No I dont debate as if LOK is the center, I simply debate that we can only use facts, facts are that LOK rules work on LOK objects, other universes rules can work on their own if you wish but only if you can prove in their unvierse they gain the powers or abilities your suggesting, you however have no ability to do this unfrotauntely.

And as always your being a grade A* weak debator in claiming something without backing it up, simply degrading someone becaus they can crush most of your points in an instant and because your almost inventing powers for your Warcraft characters. The Warcraft universe has never destroyed the imovable, no that is not the only reason Kains shield is indestructable, its because in essence he has infnite energy to manifest it, its a logical certainty that infnite power into the defence will make it invulerable, Warcraft cannot stop this.

5. create time? who created time? pyron woudnt imprison, he would pummel them into dust...Your simply describing variety, not overall power ,sure as a whole the pantheon can change life and all things like that but in pure essence Pyron could destroy and overpower any of them, Eonar couldnt do anything if Pyron put his fist through her and killed her and so eventually the pantheon would crumble.

Originally posted by Becci
6. And Kain would be able to drain Sargeras.... how? I have already told you that characters far lesser than Sargeras has resisted both life and energy draining. This is even in canon, and not stupid gameplay. I can bring solid proof of this (I will not, since I have no intentions of responding to a possible response by you in this matter. Instead I will point you in the direction of War of the Ancients, Rise of the Horde and Sunwell Triology, where you will get example of both life drain and energy drain being resisted). But of course, since you will be using Kain logic, Sargeras can not possibly resist. You will completely blind your way past any proof of resistance that Warcraft characters can bring out against draining abilities, since Kain's powers are "absolute". Yet another hypocritic point of yours. While other characters would fail doing the same thing to Kain, Kain himself can do it to anyone he wishes with a snap of his fingers. And one thing above all: Kain, based on feats, is a pathetic caster compared to the majority of the significant casters in the Warcraft universe.


7. This show exactly how little you know of what you talk, and this is probably the reason why people that do know about Warcraft find it so frustrating to debate you. You, once again, have made things up because it sounds most logical to you that way. The Well never exploded. It imploded, just like the portal, and the portal was supposed to crush Sargeras while doing so, but did not. You do know what crushing and implosion means, dont you? Thats what I thought. There are very few characters that can say that they survived being in the center of an energy implosion, and while the walls by all logic should have crushed me, they did not, due to my durability.


8. This is interesting. Because as far as I recall, we have never gotten proof of it being larger than Jupiter. I also recall you have tried to get proof of this, but they have failed to provide it. Yet, now, here that you debate for Pyron against Sargeras, it is all of a sudden acceptable that the planet was larger than Jupiter. This is just another example of the person currently known as Hypocrit Burning Thought. You use loose grounds when it suits your argument. Since when have you blindly believed everything Dark-Jaxx have said? I'll tell you when. Since it suited you. When have you questioned everything Dark-Jaxx have said? When it was against the character you speak for. Yes, Pyron is large, but we have gotten no proof of him being Jupiter size or larger. So quit being the desperate anti-Sargeras boy and try see fact as they are, rather than how you want them to be.


9. And your at it again. "Pyron is more than anything in Warcraft. He is automaticly enough to destroy Sargeras", well guess what. If Pyron is more than anything in Warcraft, he is more than anything in LoK and he can automaticly destroy that as well. You will, as always, decline this of course. Be my guest. My words are spoken, and if he is more than all of Warcraft, he definately is more than all of LoK. Entities of Warcraft has shown far more incredible endurance, strength, magic and intelligence feats than anyone in LoK, so by default, Pyron can not only destroy Warcraft, but LoK. This is by your logic. Sounds reasonable, doesnt it? ... ... ... No, it really doesnt. Get real!


6. Your not listening now, I said he doesnt "drain" he simply deems them not worthy of using magic, he regulates magic, he would simply order that their magic is nothing. Based on feats I should hope so since Kain has very few casting feats, but overall he would annhialte them all in his final incarnation since he has aboslute magical energy now, think of Kiljaeden only after gaining the power of Well of eternity. Kain cannot be drained because there is not a sourve to drain from, it would be like draining magic from Well of eternity and trying to drain it all when its limitless.

7. No its because they cannot provide any evidence is why they find it frustrating. Like youve shown with your "Sarg can survivie massive endurance" nonsense, the portal shows nothing of its power to crush anything. Supposed to crush him but did not, it doesnt do anything and it doesnt have any real proof on how strong the crushing impact is. Ofc i know what it means, if a rock falls on a rat, the rat gets crushed simpole, ony thing is the weight and power of the crushing object, in this case the portal is unkown if it even is devasatating.

8. No but since you yourself dont provide much proof and I dont really mind it being Juptirer sized since it doesnt damage any of my arguments for my characters we should both let it pass imo. I trust Dark jaxx on his words of Pyrons size, I dont remember denying Pyron being Juptier sized recently even against Kain, it simply is irrelvent to me.

9. No because in LOK they have the ability to stop Pyron, they have a vaster array of abilities and they have Kain, Warcraft does not. He is far beyond anything Warcraft could dish out but dimension locking, time powers and among other things like soul powers they can destroy Pyron, Warcraft spells and abilities are usually slower than LOK as well.

Originally posted by Becci
10. Malfurion did not help. Where do you get your facts from? If it's WoWWiki, I suggest you stop visiting it, because if WoWWiki says Illidan got help, whoever wrote the wiki article is lying. On the contruary, Illidan was not allowed to take part but did so anyway. He worked against Malfurion, against Sargeras, against the Highbourne, against the Old Gods. Against the Demon Soul. He was all alone. Artifactless. He had to break trough several sources to apply his weaving. And no, you are right, he did not destroy the planet. I merely said what the book said. While the planet remained, the habitants did not quite look at it that way.


11. He did not break two continents apart. He caused a third of the land on the planet to crumble. It wasnt ripped apart. It just happened that two parts of land remained, forming two continents with a third resting below sea-level. It is true that Well of Eternity was the real source of the sundering, but it would not have been if it werent for Illidan. A carpenter needs tools.


12. Crushed within the imploding portal, you mean right? Yeah, that's what I thought. It is not overhype to claim that he survived being crushed by an imploding portal, because that was exactly what he did. The energies of the Demon Soul, the Well of Eternity and all the spells that were in motion compressed everything around Sargeras. The walls that closed in on Sargeras were solid, therefore making surviving the implosion and crushing a very impressive feat: "He struggled to keep the way open, the interior of the gate aflame from his titanic efforts. And then, with the demon lord still shouting his rage and beating at the walls . . .". The portal was not some mere doorway. It had turned into a shrinking cage that crushed him. Perhaps you want me to bring up the crushing part again: "The corridor between realms shrank rapidly, at last crushing in on him"


13. Unknown. There you have the magical word. How can you say it is a weak feat when it is an unknown. We know the following things: Sargeras was crushed by the shrinking. The portal held realms apart. The actual sundering was only a side-effect. Why would Azeroth be vaporized by an effect that was taking place in a different realm? When Krasus stared at Sargeras in the portal, he was looking into another dimension. To claim that Azeroth would fall victim of what happens in that dimension is illogical. And I am not comparing this to a supernova. I am comparing it to the implosion that create a supernova. The compression of a star.


14. The closing of the portal was, stated by narrator, absolute. Irreversable. Impossible to counter. Being absolute means that it can not be altered by any means, and that the result is only a matter of time. Yet, Sargeras held it open before eventually being crushed by it. Anything that has an absolute outcome is by default INCREDIBLY powerful. Yet, Sargeras for a time held this absolute power on bay. I would say that it is a little more than just an "unknown". It is an unknown with a BASE. A base sufficient enough to calculate an estimated power. Has Pyron ever tried contradicting something that is absolute? Sargeras survived an absolute compression that was brought upon him with solid walls.

10. Why it is indeed:



Sounds a lot like what you said about Sargeras as well, only WoWwiki has some more of the story so how can you claim Malfurion did nothing?

11. but as the main point of this point is, yes a carpenter needs tools, unfortunatley Illidan did not "try" to destroy the land and it was a false accident, and still the land was destroyed not just because of Illidan, the portal had its own power from Sarg and Azhera .

12. Yeh he did survive but the exact strength of the crushing is unkown, it could be wimpy or unimpressive overall for all you know.

13. Well you cannot use it if its unkown as a feat, thats why from a debaters point of view (you wouldnt understand this but here I go) its weak because it means nothing for Sarg when you dont know the specifics, thus why Sarg is weak to debate overall because a lot of his specifics are unnoted, only his "loyal fans" (naming no names) rant on about him being so great by their random assumptions however.

14. But thats the thing ,it was absolutely going to crush him and it did...so him stopping it for a moment or w/e is irrelvent. Pyron? considering Pyron is both far stronger and large than Sarg i wouldnt be surprised if that portal would be help back completly and Pyron would step through or at least hold it for longer, logically speaking but no hes not actually done it.

Originally posted by Burning thought
That they are far weaker than Sargeras. Just not ncesserily magically. Where does it say fel magic is their strongest power?

I dont have to show you anything Utrigos about a gas giant sized being that could put his hand through Azeroth like it was a wet paper bag, the very physical dimension of his size and volume would imediatley be logically higher than any power on Azeroth, he wouldnt "shake" the world, thats impossible when with a tap he would crumble it. What your asking would be like me asking if you can prove a 10,000 mile wide steel ball is heavier than a paper clip....

There is some diffrence, Pyron has more power and size within him than all of Azeroth or the Warcraft universe see what I did there? it was a fine example, an example of how beings far beyond Sargeras do not need to abide by your no limits fallacy of "he is not harmed by nature magikz so he is invulerables!".

sure if the proof is provided, it sounds like an overhype, I think the impoosion of the portal closing was simply what set the well of eternity off balance which caused the sundering or so ive read before now, not the portal itself ravaging the world.


When a person is stated as a flea next to another I find it highly unlikely that they take away their greatest strength when making that comparison. Logic perhaps? The Paramount spells are fel magic in origin, before the empowerement by Sargeras, the possibilities that the Paramount Spells allows is basically limitless, but yet wasn't a possibility for the Eredar before their empowerment.

You misunderstoood completely, show me him being the size of a Gas Giant but it doesn't matter really the threadstarter has already specified that the version you and V2D are using are not the one to be used in this thread, but the one that was seen battling the Darkstalkers and he wasn't at the size of a Gasgiant. I gave you examples why the two persons you choosed too throw out was completely useless in a comparison, Galactus can drain his energy ore turn it against him also again the Power Cosmic that has shown to penetrate magical effects on various levels from near infinite sources would likely have a shoot because they have documentation of working against beings that is magical. The Living Tribunal is the most supreme sorcerer in all of the Marvel Omniverse far beyond any magic wielder in Warcraft.

And I'm sure that you can prove that right? Yeah you did nothing, because as earlier mentioned this isn't the Pyron that is the size of a Gas Giant but the Pyron that is the size of a Human.

So when the proof is provided you choose to deny it? Wonderful strategi. What part of the quote that Becci provided was so unclear that you managed to turn a simple statement completely around into that?

Becci is the greatest bucket of kickass on this side of the universe. Excuse me for saying this since I have not participated much in the conversation: Burning Thought. Despite your lovely response to her latest addition. You. Are. Beat

All that remains now is to figure out how to get an autograph.

Originally posted by Utrigita
When a person is stated as a flea next to another I find it highly unlikely that they take away their greatest strength when making that comparison. Logic perhaps? The Paramount spells are fel magic in origin, before the empowerement by Sargeras, the possibilities that the Paramount Spells allows is basically limitless, but yet wasn't a possibility for the Eredar before their empowerment.

You misunderstoood completely, show me him being the size of a Gas Giant but it doesn't matter really the threadstarter has already specified that the version you and V2D are using are not the one to be used in this thread, but the one that was seen battling the Darkstalkers and he wasn't at the size of a Gasgiant. I gave you examples why the two persons you choosed too throw out was completely useless in a comparison, Galactus can drain his energy ore turn it against him also again the Power Cosmic that has shown to penetrate magical effects on various levels from near infinite sources would likely have a shoot because they have documentation of working against beings that is magical. The Living Tribunal is the most supreme sorcerer in all of the Marvel Omniverse far beyond any magic wielder in Warcraft.

And I'm sure that you can prove that right? Yeah you did nothing, because as earlier mentioned this isn't the Pyron that is the size of a Gas Giant but the Pyron that is the size of a Human.

So when the proof is provided you choose to deny it? Wonderful strategi. What part of the quote that Becci provided was so unclear that you managed to turn a simple statement completely around into that?

Archimone can still be a flea in power overall but also be more powerful than Sarg magicwise.

But the pepole were irrelvent, i used them to show how beings vastly more powerful than Sarg would not be necessery, I woudlnt be surprised if either Galactus or LT could undo the resistances Sarg has and kill him with a fireball/fel blast.

well okie, the thread starter has turned this into a weaker Pyron but I would still like you to show me what makes you think Sarg can survive Pyron coming at him at lightspeed? as you prob know mass combined with that speed would make pyrons weight incredible

Ive not denied real proof, Becci proof I accepted as proof for my statement that nothing actually says Sargeras was hit by any incredible power nor the power of the sundering...

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
Becci is the greatest bucket of kickass on this side of the universe. Excuse me for saying this since I have not participated much in the conversation: Burning Thought. Despite your lovely response to her latest addition. You. Are. Beat

All that remains now is to figure out how to get an autograph.

Shes not really, since i suppose not being a debator you would not understand but none of her points were backed up except one which had mostly things that helped my argument into knowing Sargs power is not so high, and no ime not beat since ive not conceded although its typical thig to say from a Warcraft fan who does not debate abyway and who may be a friend of Becci. Also she basically conceded in that post lol...

lol how sad.....

Your just jealous because I want her autograph and not yours.

not rly lol.....

You really do not like losing. I can tell

But ive not lost, she basically conceded in the same post and second the only person to say so is you who seems to be a massively over bias Warcraft fan....you woudlnt understand half of what I said anyway since your not a debator, all you prob know is that Becci made 14 large points to backup Warcraft which you are a fan of. Either way even if 100 people saoid Becci oints were better it would mean nothing without reasonsons why and examples, now thirdly even if people did do that, that would make anyone who says I lose because of that reason be making a fallacy.

Does the illusion of supermacy and victory make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside? I have always wanted to try that, but never really been able to fill in the blanks. The AC never returned my calls or my mails, so I am doomed to wander alone

Its not an Illussion because A: I feel that all the time because I beat people all the time and B: she did basically concede thus victorious, if you read the first part of her post she said she was not going to debate any further

The illusion is strong in this one. Come join me instead, together we could rule reality. Tell me, do you happen to know any high positioned people within the AC? The waiting is killing me and I kinda want a foot into the handy regions of the society. Perhaps once we have gotten to know one another, I could become your apprentice? I have always wanted to know how you can lie to yourself. I have always had such problems when I try drifting away from the truth hmm

Now your just trolling, reported

Report accepted, but really. Your arrogance deserves a kick in the crotch. You are not right just because one does not bare debating you.

automicatlly right? your automatically wrong for trolling and not debating yet at the same time degrading, it would like me saying "Becci is useless" without any reason, instead I would say "Becci is bad at debatin because lack of proof i.e etc etc" at least then ime not just trolling....

what your doing is backing up a fellow Fan randomly bearing about as much credability as a fat guy calling someone else fat and bad at dieting.

Not quite correct. I am backing up someone that I find correct, over someone that I find incorrect. Me being a Warcraft fan has nothing to do with my statement that your skills of debating is in comparison to Becci unexistant. Against your expectations, I have read trough the entire thread. While you have been asked numerous things, you have never as much as brought in a single piece of proof even half as good as the worst Becci brought forth. You have won no debate, since there was no debate to begin with. You did nothing but interrogate the people that know stuff about Sargeras without actually providing anything good to strengthen your own side of the debate.

You are a thypical second rate debater who try beating adversaries by having them prove every single thing they claim, breaks down their arguments into pieces (Which is a veery easy thing to do, that in the eyes of most make you look like a good debater while in fact it is a cheap and unskilled strategy) and then reattach them to benefit yourself. While you are leading the dance, Becci and the others are the ones doing all the work. So while they work at answering all your questions and questionings, you slide by on a silverplate, making them seem worse for not being able to bring out the exact details you want, while your actual presence in the debate is shaded by the questions and critic you bring in. When a point is proven, you simply move past it as if it had never taken place, making it seem as if you faced no hinderance in your crusade against the decent debaters.

That is the side of you that debate, but not the side most people see. While you accuse others of having no real evidence, you are in fact the one that has proven the least things in the thread and deserve least attention of all.


But to not get reported again, I will go on topic: Sargeras and Jedah wins the thread, considering this is a human sized Pyron.

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
Not quite correct. I am backing up someone that I find correct, over someone that I find incorrect. Me being a Warcraft fan has nothing to do with my statement that your skills of debating is in comparison to Becci unexistant. Against your expectations, I have read trough the entire thread. While you have been asked numerous things, you have never as much as brought in a single piece of proof even half as good as the worst Becci brought forth. You have won no debate, since there was no debate to begin with. You did nothing but interrogate the people that know stuff about Sargeras without actually providing anything good to strengthen your own side of the debate.

You are a thypical second rate debater who try beating adversaries by having them prove every single thing they claim, breaks down their arguments into pieces (Which is a veery easy thing to do, that in the eyes of most make you look like a good debater while in fact it is a cheap and unskilled strategy) and then reattach them to benefit yourself. While you are leading the dance, Becci and the others are the ones doing all the work. So while they work at answering all your questions and questionings, you slide by on a silverplate, making them seem worse for not being able to bring out the exact details you want, while your actual presence in the debate is shaded by the questions and critic you bring in. When a point is proven, you simply move past it as if it had never taken place, making it seem as if you faced no hinderance in your crusade against the decent debaters.

That is the side of you that debate, but not the side most people see. While you accuse others of having no real evidence, you are in fact the one that has proven the least things in the thread and deserve least attention of all.


But to not get reported again, I will go on topic: Sargeras and Jedah wins the thread, considering this is a human sized Pyron.

Look now this is better than what you said before, but now your degrading me without examples, anyone can say someone is a bad debator but you go on to say clever things in a debate, for example making other people do the work which eventually desroys their arguments, make examples of where ive ignore good proof, or show examples of me being asked to prove something and not doing it, you see I disagree with you, I think ive debated this better because ime not assuming anything, on the other hand your "champion" becci who accoring to you is better has invented half of her points then made no proof, shes not actually debated anything as you said about my debating skills ,ill say the opposite and sau hers are non-excistent, considering youve got no examples I can sim-ply claim youve taken her side still due to love of Warcraft and dislike of me, simple, youve not made examples, this would be made more credible of a rant if you had examples for each of your points.
ime a not so typical first rate debator who makes their oppenents do all the work and me do less and in the end their defeated because (in becci case) they cant always find the proof or actually debate the points their standing for, thats why youneed to debate the way I do most of the time.

Originally posted by Becci
from what is recorded ability-wise: stronger on a magical level over Kain?

Never proved Kain above Sargeras, although claiming it.

Originally posted by Becci
what makes you so certain that Azimoth and them people could BFR Sargeras? He can cross dimensions

Never even answered. Only questioned Sargeras ability to cross dimensions.

Originally posted by Becci
I would like you to show me Kain turning anyone into atoms, or Kain draining all of anyones power that is of Sargeras magnitude.

Never was proved that Kain could do that, even though you claimed it as an obvious thing.

Originally posted by Burning thought
without any power after Kain drains him to nothing.

Neeever proven.

Originally posted by Becci
And has Kain ever frozen something of Sargeras size?

Never proven capable of such thing.

Originally posted by Becci
I assume you can prove this?

Which you couldnt.

Originally posted by Becci
And what would prevent Sargeras from draining Kain of energy?

Never proven. You only brought up the infinite point.



Want more? I can bring more. Much more. You have proven absolutely nothing in this thread. All you have done is brought descriptive words of Kain and Pyron that you have not even backed up as to from where the words come. You have shown not a single feat of Kain. You have not even said from where your used words originate. I would love to bring up more examples you have not proven. You want more?

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
Never proved Kain above Sargeras, although claiming it.



Never even answered. Only questioned Sargeras ability to cross dimensions.



Never was proved that Kain could do that, even though you claimed it as an obvious thing.



Neeever proven.



Never proven capable of such thing.



Which you couldnt.



Never proven. You only brought up the infinite point.



Want more? I can bring more. Much more. You have proven absolutely nothing in this thread. All you have done is brought descriptive words of Kain that you have not even backed up as to from where the words come. You have shown not a single feat of Kain. You have not even said from where your used words originate.

above him? above him in waht exactley? thats what the debate is about overall.

i did answer it and then I conceded to her point.

its obvious because Becci has been shown this proof before in several other forums so I imagined she would remember, obviously not.

Proven before, see by now Its obvious why you take becci over me because you dont realise how many times ive proven this. Here ill prove it again:

http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/lok/guardians.php



Becci herself however has seen this 200 times id imagine.

Becci did not prove that would even make a diffrence or if its relevent, thats like me saying Kain can defeat Sarg because hes a greeny colour and asking her to prove otherwise, it was a weak point alltogeher.

Yeh the infnite point...you cant drain an infnite source so your foolish.

Sure i want to demolish more, please bring up some. Because unlike you (which is why your creadbility is zero) Becci has debated with me before, knows where my info comes from and has actually seen it,infact she is prob a weaker debator for having to ask for this information since shes pretending ignorence when shes seen this before.

I understand why you did not quote the whole sentence


I have a shower to attend to. I must say though that nothing in your most previous post proved anything. Not anything at all. It only showed a couple of words that can be interpreted in different ways shrug Absolutely nothing in the same details as you have requested of Becci and the others to prove things.

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
I understand why you did not quote the whole sentence


I have a shower to attend to. I must say though that nothing in your most previous post proved anything. Not anything at all. It only showed a couple of words that can be interpreted in different ways shrug Absolutely nothing in the same details as you have requested of Becci and the others to prove things.

oh ok, Sargeras has defeated races in Warcraft, Archimonde has crushed dragons in Warcraft, Pantheon created planets and controlled time in warcraft, Nozmordu can control and use magic in Warcraft.....need i say more? or perhaps you also belive their all weak and worthless abilities when the battle is not set in ther universe? ofc not, you fail.....

I can and have proven things with ease, you simply have not seen it nor do you know of Kain, nor do you know as much as becci of kain considerign the amount of debates shes seen me debate him in, and in every one I have proven points overall, ask me, and ill prove.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Archimone can still be a flea in power overall but also be more powerful than Sarg magicwise.

But the pepole were irrelvent, i used them to show how beings vastly more powerful than Sarg would not be necessery, I woudlnt be surprised if either Galactus or LT could undo the resistances Sarg has and kill him with a fireball/fel blast.

well okie, the thread starter has turned this into a weaker Pyron but I would still like you to show me what makes you think Sarg can survive Pyron coming at him at lightspeed? as you prob know mass combined with that speed would make pyrons weight incredible

Ive not denied real proof, Becci proof I accepted as proof for my statement that nothing actually says Sargeras was hit by any incredible power nor the power of the sundering...

Entire unlogical that a character when compared with other Character isn't compared out from his greatest strength which is his magic. That is like saying, Batman is flea next to Captain America though both's main aspects are Martial arts and Batman actually was better, you judge from the greatest strength that a Character has and then you begin to add in all the other factors.

And I showed that neither of those beings you mentioned either can use Nature magic ore has the feats that shows that they can overwrite magical effects/resistance with their own powerlevel.

I do fully realise that, but at the size that Pyron is now, his weight would be reduced, he would need time to accelerate, and this is loose memory but I remember something about Flash making a punch many times the speed of light and that didn't even rock the earth no more power was behind that, Give him Brox Axe and he will cut straight through Sargeras otherwise again I need proof that he can at his size at the very least produce a hit that shakes the relevant world he is located on.

Again what part didn't you understand?

"The mouth of the maelstrom quivered, then lost cohesion. An explosion of energy erupted from the depth of the whirlpool.
The portal started to collapse.
One side after another, the fiery border surrounding it fell in upon itself. Sargeras attempted to reconstruct it, but by then, it had moved beyond even his power to do so. One precious second had stolen the demon lord's victory.
And then a thing happened that Krasus could never have dreamed possible. Sargeras, refusing to believe his defeated, stepped within the crumbling portal itself, trying both to rebuild it and cross through. His desire to do so proved his undoing. As the portal imploded, the demon lord found himself trapped. He could not flee, could not pull back. Dropping his sword, the titan even battered against the gateway with his fists, but to no avail. The corridor between realms shrank rapidly, at last crushing in on him"

He steppes within the portal that is imploding around him trying to stabilise it, he gets trapped which means their is no place for him to go he gets caught right in the middle of the portal, then the corridors between the realms shranked and crushed down apon him, he was within the portal when the imploding was taking place because he couldn't pull back, the energies that was realised in that implosion sunderet the Azeroth world. I entirely fail to see how you can in any way claim that Sargeras didn't withstood the implosion that sunderet the world of Azeroth.