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This is not an EU topic - look at it from the perspective of someone watching these films in order for the first time.

When Obi-Wans asks Yoda who could've emptied information from the archives - Yoda says it's a dangerous and disturbing puzzle. That only a Jedi could've erased those files.

According to the Kaminoans, Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas placed the order for the clones at the request of the Senate. Mace says whoever ordered it did not have the authorization of the Jedi Council.

At the end of AOTC, you are left with: "So who erased those files?" and more importantly, "Why were the clones ordered and more importantly WHO?!"

Dangerous and disturbing as Yoda says.

Millions of clones just happen to be ready for war and coincidentally the Seperatists are also ready for war. No one seems to question the clones convenience - they just take 'em. The only issue they have is protocol.

It's very strange that these issues are not resolved or even addressed in ROTS. To me that's a plot hole. It is a legitimate MAJOR factor that was brought up in AOTC and then completely dropped. I always felt Star Wars was smart, but THAT issue makes the PT hard to watch - feels like my intelligence is being insulted.

I love Star Wars, I have my finger pretty much well planted on the pulse of the EU, but as far as the films are concerned - that aspect always, always bums me out. Anybody know why Lucas decided not to address these issues in the sequel?

I remember him saying that we would learn more about Sifo-Dyas in ROTS. Sucks that he left it for the EU.

Count Dooku is responsible for tampering with the archives, that is some what easy to get from the film.

But I can agree with whole syfo dias thing...

Yeah man, like, the origins of the clone army are left really muddled for the average moviegoer watching the films and following the saga.

Does anyone else see that aspect of the Prequel Trilogy? Or is it minor as far as the big picture is concerned?

Count Dooku is responsible for tampering with the archives? It's somewhat easy to get from the film?

From the film, it's said that Sifo-Dyas, a Jedi-Master, ordered the clone army...on Kamino. Yoda said that only a Jedi could've erased the files - the files containing the location of Kamino. Who's to say it wasn't Sifo-Dyas. How is it easy to get from the film that it was Dooku?

Sifo-Dyas was THE plot point in AOTC, the main one that drives all the action. The fact that Lucas drops it somewhere as a lame excuse for a McGuffin which in turns determines the future 20 years of the galaxy, is what AOTC the most obsolete film in the saga. It looks beautifully, but contentwise it's a complete WTF!

I 100% agree - as a Star Wars freak, it's hard to swallow that aspect of the Prequels. I wonder what was the reasoning for leaving all that out? On the AOTC DVD Commentary, he says the issue of Sifo-Dyas would definitely be revealed in ROTS.

Anybody gotta any quotes or excerpts that hint at a reason for the decision to just disregard the big mystery of AOTC?

I know it is implied that Dooku is to blame for everything done, but they could have at least inferred some sort of connection to Sifo-Dyas. I am going to go EU for a second in that they explain the connection as Sifo and Dooku being old pals and Dooku trying to get Sifo to come along for the Separatism ride... but none of that in the movie. Just 'Oh, this Sifo-Dyas guy... yeah... whatever.'

I believe Dooku used Sifo-Dyas' name when he ordered the clones.

yes. this much is true. For instance, jango says he was recruited by a man named "tyrannus" which just so happens to be sideous's pet name for dooku.

It was said Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas was a leading member of the Jedi Counsel - and he placed the order at the request of the Senate...Obi-Wan believed these Kaminoans were telling the truth.

Jango never heard of this guy and Obi-Wan believed HE was telling the truth. Jango said he was recruited by a man called Tyranus. Establishing two different entities: One person who ordered the clones and ANOTHER who recruited Jango to be the template.

We still don't know which one erased the Kamino files from the archive memory. "Only a Jedi could have erased those files...but who and why? Harder to answer...meditate on this, I will." Plot hole...

The origin of the Clone Army that is fighting for the Republic, the side of good, is laid out in AOTC as something that to any sensible person knows (and they imply) something fishy is going on with this order, why are files missing, ect.?

Revenge of the Sith, these clones are just straight up trusted - and we're supposed to be shocked when they turn on the Jedi? We still don't know who they are!

It's like if they never mentioned Anakin's mom again after TPM. It's not CRUCIAL, you can still tell the saga without having her scenes in AOTC and removing her references in ROTS.

But why would Anakin promise to free her and then no one ever mention her again? That's...dumb. Sad, coming from the coolest saga ever told.

Point is, you can't draw a conclusion just based on watching the films. I love my saga, but to me that sticks out like a God-awful sore thumb in the Prequel Trilogy...and that blows, kinda ruins it for me.

I thought they were setting up for some big revelations in ROTS, but what we got was literally what we expected...storywise.

Originally posted by Anakin_the_Hutt
It was said Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas was a leading member of the Jedi Counsel - and he placed the order at the request of the Senate...Obi-Wan believed these Kaminoans were telling the truth.

Jango never heard of this guy and Obi-Wan believed HE was telling the truth. Jango said he was recruited by a man called Tyranus. Establishing two different entities: One person who ordered the clones and ANOTHER who recruited Jango to be the template.


errrrr.... no.

The Prime Minister says Sifo-Dyas ordered the clones on behalf of the Jedi Council.
Jango never heard of the name Sifo-Dyas, he was recruited by a man named Tyranus on one of the moons of Bogden.

What you just have established is nothing. The Prime Minister didn't describe how Sifo-Dyas looked like... so first of all: you don't know if it's the Jedi Master or someone posing as him. Second of all: you have not at all established that Sifo-Dyas and Tyranus are different persons: so Jango never heard of that specific name; he is either lying (afterall he's working for the enemy) or he has indeed never heard of the name... that last part means nothing: Obi-Wan didn't describe how Sifo-Dyas looked like.
If Luke Skywalker would introduce himself on Kamino as "Chewbacca" and than travel to Bogden and met a bounty hunter and said "hi, I'm Han Solo"; the bounty hunter indeed didn't met "Chewbacca".

Yoda accepts the clones because he supports stem cell research XD

Originally posted by Jovan
errrrr.... no.

The Prime Minister says Sifo-Dyas ordered the clones on behalf of the Jedi Council.
Jango never heard of the name Sifo-Dyas, he was recruited by a man named Tyranus on one of the moons of Bogden.

What you just have established is nothing. The Prime Minister didn't describe how Sifo-Dyas looked like... so first of all: you don't know if it's the Jedi Master or someone posing as him. Second of all: you have not at all established that Sifo-Dyas and Tyranus are different persons: so Jango never heard of that specific name; he is either lying (afterall he's working for the enemy) or he has indeed never heard of the name... that last part means nothing: Obi-Wan didn't describe how Sifo-Dyas looked like.
If Luke Skywalker would introduce himself on Kamino as "Chewbacca" and than travel to Bogden and met a bounty hunter and said "hi, I'm Han Solo"; the bounty hunter indeed didn't met "Chewbacca".

The way Obi-Wan says Sifo Dias was his master and was killed ten years ago makes it sound like he was Qui-Gon.

Alright. What you are getting at is that Dooku could possibly be Sifo-Dyas.

You're right, the Prime Minister didn't describe "how" Sifo-Dyas looked like - so you suggest that it could've been anybody.

Sifo-Dyas was a leading member of the Jedi Counsel, commisioning an army for the Republic - that's kinda hard to impersonate. I doubt they'd start cloning an army if some Joe-Schmoe went to Kamino and made the same declaration. Hell, free army!

Jango doesn't know who Sifo-Dyas is. In fact, he's never heard of him. This is fact, he is not lying.

He does know who Tyranus is, though - he recruited him to be the template for the clone army. He knows the true purpose of the clones - the utter destruction of the Jedi. Tyrnaus is manipulating a war, as Dooku...Jango knows this.

You suggest that Sifo-Dyas and Tyrnanus are one and the same, and that Jango would be clueless about that fact?

That would mean the Kaminoans would think that Tyranus/Dooku and Sifo-Dyas are one and the same...the VERY public leader of the Seperatist movement.

If you look at the established facts in the film, it's fairly obvious that Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas and Darth Tyranus/Count Dooku are completely different entities. ESPECIALLY concerning the order of the Clone Army.

YOU'VE established "What If's" - I'm establishing fact.

it looks like kaminoans have been separated from the galaxy for a long time, so they wouldn't know who the leader of the cis was. Dooku was also a jedi, so it wouldn't be that hard to impersonate a Jedi. As for jango, he doesn't need to know, he just does his job, and he only said that he had never heard of sifo-dyas, not that he didn't know that dooku pretended to be a jedi to get them to make clones.

The Kaminoans wouldn't know who the leader of the CIS was? Then why would they know about the Republic and the Jedi Counsel? They're cloning an army for the Republic...and they're ready...right on time. The galaxy was on the verge of civil war. Thousands of star systems were apart of this Seperatist movement. Dooku was well known at this point in Star Wars Land.

You're right, though - Jango didn't need to know. He had no idea who originally placed the order for the Clone Army...he didn't need to know. He just does his job.

But then you say Jango did know, he just didn't know which Jedi Tyranus impersonated.

Oops-

Here, this is ALOT clearer. My bad.

The Kaminoans wouldn't know who the leader of the CIS was? Then why would they know about the Republic and the Jedi Counsel? They're cloning an army for the Republic...and they're ready...right on time.

Thousands of star systems were joining this Seperatist movement. Dooku was well known at this point in Star Wars Land. I'm sure they knew of the impending war.

And it's not just a Jedi that Dooku would have to impersonate, it's a Senior Member of the Jedi Counsel, commissioning an army FOR the Republic. If Dooku impersonated Sifo-Dyas, then the Kaminoans never said a damn thing when he became a public figure.

You don't think the Kaminoans would've mentioned to the Jedi or the Republic that their Clone Army was coincidently ordered by Count Dooku.

That would imply that the Kaminoans were in on trying to destroy the Republic.

You said Jango knew all along, he just didn't know which Jedi Tyranus chose to impersonate.

Actually, Jango never knew who originally placed the order for the Clone Army, and he didn't need to. You're right, "He just does his job."

I don't think Dooku and Sifo-Dyas are one and the same, they can't be.

Originally posted by Anakin_the_Hutt
Oops-

Here, this is ALOT clearer. My bad.

The Kaminoans wouldn't know who the leader of the CIS was? Then why would they know about the Republic and the Jedi Counsel? They're cloning an army for the Republic...and they're ready...right on time.
I think that syfo-dias or whatever we are calling dooku now, placed the order. They new about the republic and the council because the republic is over 4000 years old. I didn't say they were all alone in the world, just that it doesn't look like they've had news from the outside world for a bit.

I actually don't think so. I'm sure the kaminoans have space travel (in fact, i'm positive) but it looks like they are very introversive.

I don't think they would know if he was a public figure or not. Once again, its been maybe a couple of years since the order was placed and just now dooku is stirring stuff up? plus they are pretty secluded for nobody exept dax to have heard of them.
I'm pretty sure they are.

What indicates that the Kaminoans were missing out on events on the outside. Yeah, they keep to themselves - but what makes you think they wouldn't know about current events? Or why they wouldn't know who Dooku was?

ESPECIALLY once the Clone Wars erupts, Dooku is the face of the enemy to the Republic. The clones they grow fight him.

Wouldn't the Kaminoans recognize "Sifo-Dyas"? Who supposed to be dead AND oddly he's fighting the Clone Army he once commissioned...?

The Kaminoans never said peep - we know that because the Republic wouldn't have used the clones if they knew they were part of Dooku's (by now, a revealed Sith Lord) plot.

The Kaminoans would have to have been in on it if Dooku ordered the army.

The Kaminoans were neutral.

Count Dooku couldn't have impersonated Sifo-Dyas. He would have been eventually recognized. It has to be that Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas actually placed the order like the Kaminoans said.

Unless it was not done personally.

Some things are clear: Dooku=Tyrannus. So Dooku employed Jango. But how did the order get placed and who decided to use Jango 10 or 20 years earlier? A 'Sifo-Dyas' apparently made the order 20 years before. The clones were ten years old (double the speed for growing up, Boba is about 10). So what happened in the 10 years in between, or was the order issued 10 years after Sifo-Dyas' death?

Now technically, Dooku or Palpy could have presented themselves as Syfo-Dyas. An info check would confirm Dyas was on the council. But who it was and how that would influence the rest of the story is a complete blank. It's not so much a plot hole, as it is evidence Lucas has no clue to write a detective story. Which makes AOTC so lame in respect to ROTS where no answers are presented to this mystery. And lame old Yoda can't figure it out either.

Then there is the issue of deleting the files in de Jedi Archives. One: what's the point of deleting a system from the archives when the average bar owner downtown knows it exists. It's like: let's delete Vietnam from the maps, so no one will find out what the yanks did there 30 years ago. A bit silly...
Then who did the erasing. If it really takes a Jedi then both Palpy and Dooku are off the list of suspects. Palpy because he's no Jedi, Dooku because he's no Jedi anymore and it's safe to assume as his access priviliges to the Jedi Archives are retracted. Plus, a famous Jedi like Dooku would most immediately be recognised, unless he had a crowney boy inside. Again: Lucas raises questions he doesn't answer and that don't stand even the lightest form of scrutiny. It all comes down to bad writing in the end. If you can't write a proper mystery story, don't even start going that way. A lot of smoke and fireworks that don't amount to anything nor have any impact on the progression of the story. In the end: why would we care HOW the clones got ordered, the fact that they are made to be an army is what counts. And yet, the majority of AOTC is used to unravel a mystery that never gets unraveled. Bweeerk...

I just can't believe with all the people surrounding George Lucas - on that team working on the ROTS - NO ONE thought to suggest, "Maybe you should tie up some loose strings from the last film...like, the plot."

I mean, it's just a horrible sequel-jump. There's gotta be a reason somewhere for dropping that aspect out of ROTS.

I know there's the book - but I'm sure they dropped it from ROTS and then put it in the book.

Originally posted by Anakin_the_Hutt
Alright. What you are getting at is that Dooku could possibly be Sifo-Dyas.


No, what I'm getting at is that everyone can be the one that ordered the clones. Dooku could have said "Hi, I'm Sifo-Dyas, member of the Jedi Council. Gimme some droids." Palpatine could have done the same even Yoda or who ever wanted it to happen. You've got a name, that's all.




Originally posted by Anakin_the_Hutt
Sifo-Dyas was a leading member of the Jedi Counsel, commisioning an army for the Republic - that's kinda hard to impersonate. I doubt they'd start cloning an army if some Joe-Schmoe went to Kamino and made the same declaration. Hell, free army!


Why? Kamino is in the Outer Rim beyond the Richie Maze... I doubt they know or care about how Sifo-Dyas looks like. If we would meet and you say "Hi, I'm Bob", I take it you're named Bob and I don't go checking your ID to make sure you're not lying.
Impersonating has nothing to do with it: Sifo-Dyas died "almost 10 years ago" while the gap between TPM & AOTC is 10 years. Again, this doesn't mean that Sifo-Dyas was alive when the clones were ordered: Obi-Wan said "well, it's around 10 years ago... 9 years, 10 months, 3 days... or 8 years 11 months and 24 days... or even 10 years, 8 months and 6 days."
The only thing the impersonator (if it is one of course) had to do was to make sure the money seemed to come from the Jedi. When that's done, the Kaminoans wouldn't even give less (if possible) that it's for the Jedi or not. (I think Dexx explained that when he said the Kaminoans are friendly if you're pocketbook is thick)


Originally posted by Anakin_the_Hutt
Jango doesn't know who Sifo-Dyas is. In fact, he's never heard of him. This is fact, he is not lying.



Indeed: the fact is that he does not know the NAME Sifo-Dyas. Again, Obi-Wan hasn't given a description of how Sifo-Dyas looked like so Jango doesn't know for a fact that he has met or hasn't met Sifo-Dyas. He judges by the name. (again, he could be lying and indeed have heard of Sifo-Dyas)




Originally posted by Anakin_the_Hutt
You suggest that Sifo-Dyas and Tyrnanus are one and the same, and that Jango would be clueless about that fact?


No, to recapulate: I suggest that Sifo-Dyas could be anyone ranging from Sifo-Dyas himself over Tyranus to even Yoda! You've got a name and because the name is linked to a person, you think it means something while it doesn't.
Jango doesn't care about how it is... he gets a handsome reward for being the template, for training the guys AND in the mean time he can still take a job for extra cash.



Originally posted by Anakin_the_Hutt
That would mean the Kaminoans would think that Tyranus/Dooku and Sifo-Dyas are one and the same...the VERY public leader of the Seperatist movement.


Again: you've got a name. You've got two choices: either Dooku is Sifo-Dyas or he isn't. And again: I highly doubt the Kaminoans give a damn: if the pocketbook is thick enough, they're happy.




Originally posted by Anakin_the_Hutt
If you look at the established facts in the film, it's fairly obvious that Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas and Darth Tyranus/Count Dooku are completely different entities. ESPECIALLY concerning the order of the Clone Army.


No, and again: the only facts are
1) that "Sifo-Dyas" ordered the clones.
2) There was this Jedi on the Jedi Council that went by that name
3) we don't know if it's a common name in the galaxy or not
4) we don't know how Sifo-Dyas looked like
5) we don't know how the Sifo-Dyas who ordered the clones, looked like

In short: you've got a name and draw conclusions from it while you simply can't.



And to support some things other posters have said:

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
I don't think they would know if he was a public figure or not. Once again, its been maybe a couple of years since the order was placed and just now dooku is stirring stuff up? plus they are pretty secluded for nobody exept dax to have heard of them.
I'm pretty sure they are.
Like Dexx said in the movie: "These Kaminoans... keep to themselves." Indeed, they are introvert and don't seek contact with others.
Again: someone placed the order and you simply don't know who. If it indeed was Dooku 10 years ago he wasn't a known separatist. He leaves the Jedi Order because of the death of Qui-Gon which happened 10 years before AOTC. IF it was Dooku: he could have done it while he was still a Jedi (and thus set up a "real" Jedi account so the Kaminoans thought it was ok); OR while he had JUST left the order (he's a count, he can afford it out of his own pocketbook) OR when he joined the Sith (if there is no overlap)
This means: he was either "just a Jedi" or "just a Jedi (who had just left the order)". You can't assume that people as far as on Kamino knows who's a Jedi and who's not, who has left the order and who has not and who forms the (at that point extremely young) separatist movement (IF it already existed at that point!).
Afterwards, they wouldn't care less: If it was Dooku and he gets known on Kamino; you have the following facts: He indeed is a Jedi, he used a fake name (so what? First thing he would have said about the order was to keep it a secret so it's logic he would use a fake name), the order is still to deliver the clones to the jedi... nothing much has changed for the Kaminoans.

Okay, so what you're saying is that anyone could've ordered the clones.

True. It could have been Aunt Beru, but the Kaminoans said a leading member of the Jedi Counsel named Sifo-Dyas placed the order at the request of the Senate for the Republic. Don't you think someone using THAT cover would know that eventually it would be investigated? Yoda went to Kamino to check out the clones. What he learned - we'll never know. But he took the clones.

You also pointed out that logic and common sense doesn't apply to the Kaminoans because they don't care who you are as long as you got the money.

They were isolationists. I don't think they would decide to destroy the galaxy because of a fat check.

Again, Jango has no idea who Sifo-Dyas is. Jango is completely in the dark when it comes to the ordering of the clones. He was hired to be a template and do a job. He knows his objective - that's all he needs to know.

Sifo-Dyas was Sifo-Dyas...

Count Dooku killed Dias and impersonated him.

As far as the dates for the ordering of the clones - it goes like this:

"Master Sifo-Dyas was killed, almost 10 years ago." That's Obi-Wan to Lama Su.

When Obi-Wan reports back to Yoda and Mace he says, "They say Master Sifo-Dyas placed an order for a clone army at the request of the Senate almost 10 years ago. I was under the impression he was killed before that."

The hell is that?

The order had to have been placed 10 years ago. Boba is 10 years old.

Originally posted by Anakin_the_Hutt
True. It could have been Aunt Beru, but the Kaminoans said a leading member of the Jedi Counsel named Sifo-Dyas placed the order at the request of the Senate for the Republic. Don't you think someone using THAT cover would know that eventually it would be investigated? Yoda went to Kamino to check out the clones. What he learned - we'll never know. But he took the clones.


No, I indeed don't think that. As said earlier: the Kaminoans don't care: they're friendly if you pay them well. We can safely assume that who ever ordered the clones did that since they kept working on the project for 10 years.
They really have something better to do than to check who is on the Jedi Council and who isn't.
As said: if in the end, it turns out to be Dooku who did it: so what? The Kaminoans will think: He is indeed a Jedi, perhaps he bragged and lied a bit to sound more "cool" to them (or whatever). So we have nothing to worry about.
If it wasn't Dooku the point still remains: they don't care. They get payed, that's all that matters. That is explicitly said by Dexx!



Originally posted by Anakin_the_Hutt
They were isolationists. I don't think they would decide to destroy the galaxy because of a fat check.
Possibly. And in fact, they didn't destroy the galaxy... Like some saying goes: it's not the bullet that kills, it's the finger that pulls the trigger. They made the clones, how they are used is not their choice. This is not just Star Wars logic, it's reality. That's how weapon producers say to sleep better at night: they provide protection, if it's misused it's not their fault.

If in the end it was Dooku - so what?

If they know they are building nukes for a nuclear war - they're destroying the galaxy. The Kaminoans weren't bad guys. If they knew Dooku was Sifo-Dyas; that would make them accomplises to Sidious' plot to irradicate the Jedi and topple galactic freedom.

MAYBE the guy who said he was Sifo-Dyas...was Sifo-Dyas, and when Yoda went to get the clones - MAYBE somehow he confirmed it and then accepted the clones.

But then we are left with the question of "why" did Sifo-Dyas order the army in the first place. The answer was never given in the films.

Originally posted by Anakin_the_Hutt
As far as the dates for the ordering of the clones - it goes like this:

"Master Sifo-Dyas was killed, almost 10 years ago." That's Obi-Wan to Lama Su.

When Obi-Wan reports back to Yoda and Mace he says, "They say Master Sifo-Dyas placed an order for a clone army at the request of the Senate almost 10 years ago. I was under the impression he was killed before that."

The hell is that?

He was killed before that...that is becuase Count Dooku impersonated him.

they just got payed to do a job. Its like a knife manufacturer. Sure the knife might be used to mug someone, but it might also be used to create a delicious meal. They are just doing their job. Ask questions, and your 2trillion dollar contract goes poof. ;[

Originally posted by Anakin_the_Hutt
If they know they are building nukes for a nuclear war - they're destroying the galaxy.
as I have said before and Knightfa11 right above me: they made the means, they have nothing to do with the cause.
They made clones & trained them... so what? They're not the one ordering them to go and shoot off civilians/battledroids/... . As said numerous times: they did it for the money.

And indeed: what if it has been Dooku? Or Sifo-Dyas? The answer stays the same: then it was him and no one else. It doesn't matter in the end.

Look, this is all over-complication. There is no plot hole, just a plot abandonment when the Sifo-Days thing went nowhere- irritating but hardly fatal.

Dooku impersonated Dyas and ordered the Clones. It was Dooku who messed around with the recordsd, and the dating shows he did it ten years ago, just after TPM (dunno where you got 20 yeards from, queeq).

That the Kaminoans were mostly ignorant of things you may not like, but it is not at all inconsistent with what they see. They don't even know that Dyas, the man they think they are taking orders from, died ten years ago. Theuir world is outside the Republic,m far enough outside that weapons from their world cannot be identified by normal means. Bot at all unlimkely that they are complete out the news loop. And if there are any other problems with that- well, Dooku is a Sith Lord, a Master of deception. That's all you need.

As for the Clone Army being suspicious- uyes, but that's the point. The Jedi have no choice but to use it, and the Senate backs its use anyway. The Jedi are suspicious bit cannot prove anything, and never find the big bad Sith Lord in time.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Look, this is all over-complication. There is no plot hole, just a plot abandonment when the Sifo-Days thing went nowhere- irritating but hardly fatal.

Dooku impersonated Dyas and ordered the Clones. It was Dooku who messed around with the recordsd, and the dating shows he did it ten years ago, just after TPM (dunno where you got 20 yeards from, queeq).

That the Kaminoans were mostly ignorant of things you may not like, but it is not at all inconsistent with what they see. They don't even know that Dyas, the man they think they are taking orders from, died ten years ago. Theuir world is outside the Republic,m far enough outside that weapons from their world cannot be identified by normal means. Bot at all unlimkely that they are complete out the news loop. And if there are any other problems with that- well, Dooku is a Sith Lord, a Master of deception. That's all you need.

As for the Clone Army being suspicious- uyes, but that's the point. The Jedi have no choice but to use it, and the Senate backs its use anyway. The Jedi are suspicious bit cannot prove anything, and never find the big bad Sith Lord in time.

Yes, thanks for clearing this all up Ush.

Why would they spend billions making a clone army with no down-payment or credit check or anything like that? "Oh, he's a Jedi so I guess we will use all our resources to do this without checking from anyone else or inquiring about who is going to pay for it."

Originally posted by K-Dog
Why would they spend billions making a clone army with no down-payment or credit check or anything like that? "Oh, he's a Jedi so I guess we will use all our resources to do this without checking from anyone else or inquiring about who is going to pay for it."

He wrote him a check I think, either that or he used his Sith Visa card.

Boba is 10 years old. The order was placed 10 years ago.

Obi-Wan told Lama Su that Sifo-Dyas was killed ALMOST 10 years ago.

He then tells the Old Folks Home that Sifo-Dyas placed the order ALMOST 10 years ago...which is wrong, that's a fact.

Then he says he thought Sifo-Dyas was killed before that..."before what?!" The clone order which he's wrong about?

His reporting is wrong. The conversation between him and Lama Su makes more sense.

Obi-Wan had never seen the clones and had no idea how old they were.

Obi-Wan must've just had a lucky guess if he simply made up the time when Sifo-Dyas died. 'Cause if he chose OVER 10 years ago, then the Clones Wars would never have happened.

And they accept the clones under these circumstances, and NO ONE brings these issues up - the fact that the enemy had a hand in it's creation.

- y'know, I thought Bail WOULD say something...when Senator Ask Aak says, "The debate is over. Now we need that clone army."

Bail says, "Unfortunately, the debate is not over. The senate will never approve the use of clones before the seperatists attack."

How about never approving the use of clones under these circumstances? Nope, it's an issue of protocol. Who cares?!

Either the good guys are really stupid and don't care - killing their reliability, or we're expected not to see that aspect - insulting the viewers intelligence.

The Jedi and the Senate knew Jango was recruited by Tyranus/Dooku to be the template for the army. Investigation, anyone?

Did you read Ush's post? Dooku impersonated Dias and ordered the clones after he was killed, I have even been saying that for a long time.

Yeah, I read the post - there is no evidence or facts that say Dooku impersonated Sifo-Dyas and ordered the clones after he was killed.

What are you basing that line of thought on? Facts and logic point to the contrary. Dooku is not Sifo-Dyas. Dooku took over the order after Sifo-Dyas put it in.

That doesn't make any sense.

That's what the film portrays.

These are facts:

Boba is 10 years old. The order was placed 10 years ago.

Obi-Wan told Lama Su that Sifo-Dyas was killed ALMOST 10 years ago.

He then tells the Old Folks Home that Sifo-Dyas placed the order ALMOST 10 years ago...which is wrong, that's a fact.

Then he says he thought Sifo-Dyas was killed before that..."before what?!" The time the clones were ordered - which he's wrong about?

His REPORTING is wrong. The conversation between him and Lama Su makes more sense.

Obi-Wan had never seen the clones and had no idea how old they were.

Obi-Wan must've just had a lucky guess if he simply made up the time when Sifo-Dyas died. 'Cause if he chose OVER 10 years ago, then the Clone Wars would never have happened. He had to have been establishing fact about his death.

lol its only a movie >.>

cut the guy some slack.

LOL - What? Damnit! Why did they leave it like this?! It's horrible! I have to buy a book to understand the logic and get in the behind-the-scenes shinanigins that should've been addressed in the film sequel?! It was a plot point!

I weep for the future.

Anakin, Dooku is the only suspect and hence the answer I gave is the only answer. If you don't like it, then tough, you are stuck with it. Being remarkab;y pedantic over rough conversations of dates will not change that- all the dsates are meant to tell us is that this whole process started just after TPM. There is no other inconsistency there that cannot be solved by not being to-the-day literal about the ten year figure.

Establishing a timeline is essential if you are to determine whether it's even POSSIBLE for Sifo-Dyas to have ordered the army.

But alright, say Dooku DID do everything. Erased the files, ordered the clones under Sifo-Dyas' name...he did everything.

Shouldn't the clones be an issue...knowing they're the products of war planted to be conveniently ready when Dooku's OTHER army attacks?

They all know Dooku/Tyranus selected Jango as the template. Wouldn't the Jedi and the Senate then know Dooku set up this army for them? That Dooku acted as Sifo-Dyas? That the Sith are supplying both sides? Wouldn't that be a huge issue of concern? No one's addressed this.

The only issue of concern was: that they couldn't commission the army until the Seperatists' attack. Why is that?

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Anakin, Dooku is the only suspect and hence the answer I gave is the only answer. If you don't like it, then tough, you are stuck with it. Being remarkab;y pedantic over rough conversations of dates will not change that- all the dsates are meant to tell us is that this whole process started just after TPM. There is no other inconsistency there that cannot be solved by not being to-the-day literal about the ten year figure.

I guess you're right. It's just stupid that teh whole issue was abandoned in the movie as if it's not that big a deal: a Sith Lord and a rogue Jedi infiltrating the Jedi without them knowing, making a huge order of clones and then just about about using them as well. It's rather major although it does once again stress how stupid. ignorant and blind the good guys are. With an opponent like that, no bad guy can go wrong.

For me it's the narrative plot holes that bother me.

(and sorry about the 20 years, my bad)

except when they're sending in the battle droids...

Rather major, indeed...for people paying attention to that kinda stuff.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Anakin, Dooku is the only suspect and hence the answer I gave is the only answer. If you don't like it, then tough, you are stuck with it. Being remarkab;y pedantic over rough conversations of dates will not change that- all the dsates are meant to tell us is that this whole process started just after TPM. There is no other inconsistency there that cannot be solved by not being to-the-day literal about the ten year figure.

SS knows all. And you are correct.

SS.... SweerSa.... get it.

Originally posted by queeq
SS.... SweerSa.... get it.

Hahaha.

The Nightmare Never Ends.

A long time ago, in the most gullible galaxy far, far away.

Star Wars went Pleasantville.

The Sith take over a clueless, blind Republic and galaxy.

They deserve it then, I guess. "Wipe them out...all of them."

I knew this dude that got wiped out...for double posting over an over...hahaha...u at least have to have a meaning or an apology for 2x posting..lol...u must be newb...lol..ouch...jus messin I get drunk and double post too

Hahaha.

Originally posted by Anakin_the_Hutt
The Sith take over a clueless, blind Republic and galaxy.

They deserve it then, I guess. "Wipe them out...all of them."

Yeah well, that's kinda my feelings also. But it makes me wonder why people want it back in the OT as well.

Originally posted by Anakin_the_Hutt
Yeah, I read the post - there is no evidence or facts that say Dooku impersonated Sifo-Dyas and ordered the clones after he was killed.

What are you basing that line of thought on? Facts and logic point to the contrary. Dooku is not Sifo-Dyas. Dooku took over the order after Sifo-Dyas put it in.

That is correct. The whole 'Sifo-Dyas' thing is explained in "Labyrinth of Evil."

looking at it from not reading any of the books and just watching the movies, obviously sidious and or dooku ordered the clones using syfodias name. and the jedi council new something was up but they had little choice and had to take them to fight the separists. as a result they fell into sidious plan.
"everything is proceeding as i have forseen"

Originally posted by Anakin_the_Hutt
These are facts:

Boba is 10 years old. The order was placed 10 years ago.

Obi-Wan told Lama Su that Sifo-Dyas was killed ALMOST 10 years ago.

He then tells the Old Folks Home that Sifo-Dyas placed the order ALMOST 10 years ago...which is wrong, that's a fact.

Then he says he thought Sifo-Dyas was killed before that..."before what?!" The time the clones were ordered - which he's wrong about?

His REPORTING is wrong. The conversation between him and Lama Su makes more sense.

Obi-Wan had never seen the clones and had no idea how old they were.

Obi-Wan must've just had a lucky guess if he simply made up the time when Sifo-Dyas died. 'Cause if he chose OVER 10 years ago, then the Clone Wars would never have happened. He had to have been establishing fact about his death.


I think Obiwan was trying to piece together the puzzle with the kamenios
when he said syfodias was killed almost 10 years ago and when he heard that the clones mature in half the time that would be 10 years for them to be mature. but i don't think he wanted to alarm the kamenios that syfodias was probably killed before he place the order with them.
that's why he says syfodias was killed before the clones were ordered to mace and yoda.

Also, not that ALMOST matters terribly much.

Nope

EU CHECK!!!
http://misc.levels4you.com/l4y/tf2_pyro.jpg