Registered: Jan 2005
Location: I have no idea...it's dark, though.
That plot hole in the Prequel Trilogy makes them hard to watch.
This is not an EU topic - look at it from the perspective of someone watching these films in order for the first time.
When Obi-Wans asks Yoda who could've emptied information from the archives - Yoda says it's a dangerous and disturbing puzzle. That only a Jedi could've erased those files.
According to the Kaminoans, Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas placed the order for the clones at the request of the Senate. Mace says whoever ordered it did not have the authorization of the Jedi Council.
At the end of AOTC, you are left with: "So who erased those files?" and more importantly, "Why were the clones ordered and more importantly WHO?!"
Dangerous and disturbing as Yoda says.
Millions of clones just happen to be ready for war and coincidentally the Seperatists are also ready for war. No one seems to question the clones convenience - they just take 'em. The only issue they have is protocol.
It's very strange that these issues are not resolved or even addressed in ROTS. To me that's a plot hole. It is a legitimate MAJOR factor that was brought up in AOTC and then completely dropped. I always felt Star Wars was smart, but THAT issue makes the PT hard to watch - feels like my intelligence is being insulted.
__________________ "Home? I have no home. Hunted, despised...living like an animal. The jungle is my home. But I shall show the world that I can be its master."
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: I have no idea...it's dark, though.
I love Star Wars, I have my finger pretty much well planted on the pulse of the EU, but as far as the films are concerned - that aspect always, always bums me out. Anybody know why Lucas decided not to address these issues in the sequel?
I remember him saying that we would learn more about Sifo-Dyas in ROTS. Sucks that he left it for the EU.
__________________ "Home? I have no home. Hunted, despised...living like an animal. The jungle is my home. But I shall show the world that I can be its master."
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: I have no idea...it's dark, though.
Yeah man, like, the origins of the clone army are left really muddled for the average moviegoer watching the films and following the saga.
__________________ "Home? I have no home. Hunted, despised...living like an animal. The jungle is my home. But I shall show the world that I can be its master."
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: I have no idea...it's dark, though.
Does anyone else see that aspect of the Prequel Trilogy? Or is it minor as far as the big picture is concerned?
__________________ "Home? I have no home. Hunted, despised...living like an animal. The jungle is my home. But I shall show the world that I can be its master."
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: I have no idea...it's dark, though.
Count Dooku is responsible for tampering with the archives? It's somewhat easy to get from the film?
From the film, it's said that Sifo-Dyas, a Jedi-Master, ordered the clone army...on Kamino. Yoda said that only a Jedi could've erased the files - the files containing the location of Kamino. Who's to say it wasn't Sifo-Dyas. How is it easy to get from the film that it was Dooku?
__________________ "Home? I have no home. Hunted, despised...living like an animal. The jungle is my home. But I shall show the world that I can be its master."
Sifo-Dyas was THE plot point in AOTC, the main one that drives all the action. The fact that Lucas drops it somewhere as a lame excuse for a McGuffin which in turns determines the future 20 years of the galaxy, is what AOTC the most obsolete film in the saga. It looks beautifully, but contentwise it's a complete WTF!
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: I have no idea...it's dark, though.
I 100% agree - as a Star Wars freak, it's hard to swallow that aspect of the Prequels. I wonder what was the reasoning for leaving all that out? On the AOTC DVD Commentary, he says the issue of Sifo-Dyas would definitely be revealed in ROTS.
Anybody gotta any quotes or excerpts that hint at a reason for the decision to just disregard the big mystery of AOTC?
__________________ "Home? I have no home. Hunted, despised...living like an animal. The jungle is my home. But I shall show the world that I can be its master."
I know it is implied that Dooku is to blame for everything done, but they could have at least inferred some sort of connection to Sifo-Dyas. I am going to go EU for a second in that they explain the connection as Sifo and Dooku being old pals and Dooku trying to get Sifo to come along for the Separatism ride... but none of that in the movie. Just 'Oh, this Sifo-Dyas guy... yeah... whatever.'
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: I have no idea...it's dark, though.
It was said Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas was a leading member of the Jedi Counsel - and he placed the order at the request of the Senate...Obi-Wan believed these Kaminoans were telling the truth.
Jango never heard of this guy and Obi-Wan believed HE was telling the truth. Jango said he was recruited by a man called Tyranus. Establishing two different entities: One person who ordered the clones and ANOTHER who recruited Jango to be the template.
We still don't know which one erased the Kamino files from the archive memory. "Only a Jedi could have erased those files...but who and why? Harder to answer...meditate on this, I will." Plot hole...
__________________ "Home? I have no home. Hunted, despised...living like an animal. The jungle is my home. But I shall show the world that I can be its master."
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: I have no idea...it's dark, though.
The origin of the Clone Army that is fighting for the Republic, the side of good, is laid out in AOTC as something that to any sensible person knows (and they imply) something fishy is going on with this order, why are files missing, ect.?
Revenge of the Sith, these clones are just straight up trusted - and we're supposed to be shocked when they turn on the Jedi? We still don't know who they are!
It's like if they never mentioned Anakin's mom again after TPM. It's not CRUCIAL, you can still tell the saga without having her scenes in AOTC and removing her references in ROTS.
But why would Anakin promise to free her and then no one ever mention her again? That's...dumb. Sad, coming from the coolest saga ever told.
Point is, you can't draw a conclusion just based on watching the films. I love my saga, but to me that sticks out like a God-awful sore thumb in the Prequel Trilogy...and that blows, kinda ruins it for me.
I thought they were setting up for some big revelations in ROTS, but what we got was literally what we expected...storywise.
__________________ "Home? I have no home. Hunted, despised...living like an animal. The jungle is my home. But I shall show the world that I can be its master."
The Prime Minister says Sifo-Dyas ordered the clones on behalf of the Jedi Council.
Jango never heard of the name Sifo-Dyas, he was recruited by a man named Tyranus on one of the moons of Bogden.
What you just have established is nothing. The Prime Minister didn't describe how Sifo-Dyas looked like... so first of all: you don't know if it's the Jedi Master or someone posing as him. Second of all: you have not at all established that Sifo-Dyas and Tyranus are different persons: so Jango never heard of that specific name; he is either lying (afterall he's working for the enemy) or he has indeed never heard of the name... that last part means nothing: Obi-Wan didn't describe how Sifo-Dyas looked like.
If Luke Skywalker would introduce himself on Kamino as "Chewbacca" and than travel to Bogden and met a bounty hunter and said "hi, I'm Han Solo"; the bounty hunter indeed didn't met "Chewbacca".
__________________ Kyuzo: Don't you see? A real sword will kill you. Mr. Earl Brooks: If I were here to kill you, you would already be dead. Mercedes: My mother told me to be wary of Fauns. Mr. Le Chiffre: No, I believe in a reasonable rate of return. James Bond: Now the whole world will know you died while you were scratching my balls!
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: I have no idea...it's dark, though.
Alright. What you are getting at is that Dooku could possibly be Sifo-Dyas.
You're right, the Prime Minister didn't describe "how" Sifo-Dyas looked like - so you suggest that it could've been anybody.
Sifo-Dyas was a leading member of the Jedi Counsel, commisioning an army for the Republic - that's kinda hard to impersonate. I doubt they'd start cloning an army if some Joe-Schmoe went to Kamino and made the same declaration. Hell, free army!
Jango doesn't know who Sifo-Dyas is. In fact, he's never heard of him. This is fact, he is not lying.
He does know who Tyranus is, though - he recruited him to be the template for the clone army. He knows the true purpose of the clones - the utter destruction of the Jedi. Tyrnaus is manipulating a war, as Dooku...Jango knows this.
You suggest that Sifo-Dyas and Tyrnanus are one and the same, and that Jango would be clueless about that fact?
That would mean the Kaminoans would think that Tyranus/Dooku and Sifo-Dyas are one and the same...the VERY public leader of the Seperatist movement.
If you look at the established facts in the film, it's fairly obvious that Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas and Darth Tyranus/Count Dooku are completely different entities. ESPECIALLY concerning the order of the Clone Army.
YOU'VE established "What If's" - I'm establishing fact.
__________________ "Home? I have no home. Hunted, despised...living like an animal. The jungle is my home. But I shall show the world that I can be its master."
it looks like kaminoans have been separated from the galaxy for a long time, so they wouldn't know who the leader of the cis was. Dooku was also a jedi, so it wouldn't be that hard to impersonate a Jedi. As for jango, he doesn't need to know, he just does his job, and he only said that he had never heard of sifo-dyas, not that he didn't know that dooku pretended to be a jedi to get them to make clones.
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: I have no idea...it's dark, though.
The Kaminoans wouldn't know who the leader of the CIS was? Then why would they know about the Republic and the Jedi Counsel? They're cloning an army for the Republic...and they're ready...right on time. The galaxy was on the verge of civil war. Thousands of star systems were apart of this Seperatist movement. Dooku was well known at this point in Star Wars Land.
You're right, though - Jango didn't need to know. He had no idea who originally placed the order for the Clone Army...he didn't need to know. He just does his job.
But then you say Jango did know, he just didn't know which Jedi Tyranus impersonated.
__________________ "Home? I have no home. Hunted, despised...living like an animal. The jungle is my home. But I shall show the world that I can be its master."
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: I have no idea...it's dark, though.
Oops-
Here, this is ALOT clearer. My bad.
The Kaminoans wouldn't know who the leader of the CIS was? Then why would they know about the Republic and the Jedi Counsel? They're cloning an army for the Republic...and they're ready...right on time.
Thousands of star systems were joining this Seperatist movement. Dooku was well known at this point in Star Wars Land. I'm sure they knew of the impending war.
And it's not just a Jedi that Dooku would have to impersonate, it's a Senior Member of the Jedi Counsel, commissioning an army FOR the Republic. If Dooku impersonated Sifo-Dyas, then the Kaminoans never said a damn thing when he became a public figure.
You don't think the Kaminoans would've mentioned to the Jedi or the Republic that their Clone Army was coincidently ordered by Count Dooku.
That would imply that the Kaminoans were in on trying to destroy the Republic.
You said Jango knew all along, he just didn't know which Jedi Tyranus chose to impersonate.
Actually, Jango never knew who originally placed the order for the Clone Army, and he didn't need to. You're right, "He just does his job."
I don't think Dooku and Sifo-Dyas are one and the same, they can't be.
__________________ "Home? I have no home. Hunted, despised...living like an animal. The jungle is my home. But I shall show the world that I can be its master."
Dec 4th, 2008 10:47 PM
FER TEA!!
