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So I got into a discussion today and I was pretty darn sure that during the Spanish conquest/absorption of the New World the Incan culture got stepped on. I know that the Incan civilization got demolished, but I was wondering what happened with the religion/language. I thought that the Conquistadors had deliberately set out to burn Incan texts. I believed that the Catholic Church condoned this behavior, yet now I am unable to find a source linking the Church to the destruction of the Incan language and writing system.

Was I wrong? This is history and religion so I thought it belongs here. Any link to a reputable source would prove me right, but it seems like this isn't a question of fact, but of degree. How much influence (if any) did the Catholic Church have on the events of the first contacts between Spaniards and Native Americans?

The Catholic Church banned slavery of the indigenous American peoples... in the papal bull Sublimus Dei...the Jesuit Order also tried to protect people from the harm some of the Spanish were causing...

On the other hand I think the slavery bull was eventually revoked and religious priests/bishops went about doing a fair bit of "damage" to the indigenous culture... but hey, gotta save souls right?

(That last bit was a joke, I just know that the Church directly influenced/did some good but it wasn't shy of /causing from some of the so called bad things either.)

Here's a newslink from '07. The Pope said that the indigenous peoples of south america had been secretly longing to become Christian. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6656081.stm Though, as often with the Pope he says something and people take it totally wrongly- change the words around and try to give it new meaning...like they did with the "gays are more harmful than the destruction of the rainforest" thing.

Looks like I was (partly) mistaken- the book burning/destruction was aimed at the Aztecs. The Incans didn't have a written language. (Or, at least, there isn't much proof of a writing system.)

So if the Catholic Church thought that the indigenous people 'wanted' to be converted, does that eliminate any guilt at the harsh treatment of the natives? Looking at it from their (your?) perspective, did bringing people to Christ make it okay to hurt them? (As long as the hurting brought them into the church...)

so let me get this straight (pun intended) gays in the rain forest?...sounds like a new brokeback mountain 2 movie..lol

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
How much influence (if any) did the Catholic Church have on the events of the first contacts between Spaniards and Native Americans?

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
How much influence (if any) did the Catholic Church have on the events of the first contacts between Spaniards and Native Americans?

Well they certinaly had no problem taking all their gold.

I don't know as much about the Inca as I do the Aztec, but I assume there were some similarities. The Aztec believed that gold should be made into artwork to express its beauty. They often inlaid it with gems and other precious materials. THe Spanish litterally pried out all the jewels and melted down teh gold into bars (which probably confused the hell out of the Aztecs) and shipped it back to the Old world. I believe a lot of it ended up in the bottomless coffers of the Vatican

Originally posted by Ordo
Well they certinaly had no problem taking all their gold.

I don't know as much about the Inca as I do the Aztec, but I assume there were some similarities. The Aztec believed that gold should be made into artwork to express its beauty. They often inlaid it with gems and other precious materials. THe Spanish litterally pried out all the jewels and melted down teh gold into bars (which probably confused the hell out of the Aztecs) and shipped it back to the Old world. I believe a lot of it ended up in the bottomless coffers of the Vatican

You don't really address the Church's influence though do you? You say they didn't mind taking the gold but then go on to talk about the spannish...

I don't quite get what your point is relevant to the quote.

The church got the benefits even if their involvement was not direct?

As a hispanic catholic, i kinda grew knowing a few things about the church and the meso americans from researching my cultures history and listening to my family..

when the conquistadors arrived in the meso americas they did steal gold to sent back to spain and enslaved the aztec after they were defeated and or tortured them by cutting there feet and feeding them to their dogs.. all this accurred with permission of the priest and monks that accompanied them into the americas, their view was that they werent even human but savages who were all cannibals... by torturing them they would be purged of their sins through penance.some of the natives were tortured for 12 to 13 days for each apostle and the last number was seen as sacred i think for jesus christ.

pretty sure the churches knew and had given them permission for "conversion." letters were sent to the catholic church to allow certain things, not sure what they said. long time since i studied this.. i know the church gave permission to destroy all scriptures and idols of false gods and to teach them the civilized tongue of its time..

monasteries were set up to teach the aztecs and natives around mexico a spaniard education.. this was done by killing those who resisted and punishing those who were caught reading, writing, speaking or carrying aztec scriptures....

alot of the aztec legends and scriptures that survived today are reproductions of the original written down by quetzacotl priest by memoryand hidding them by burial from the spaniards..

the spaniard priest/monk of the time by permission of the church were allowed and ordered to find and destroy everything that had to do with quetzacotl/ kulkul because of the similarities to some one else.
his appearance and legends mirrored someone and many felt it was blasphemy..

slender native holy man with a beard who preached peace and love..
born from a women by divine means.. the chief sun god spoke to the women and inpregnated her she was a virgin.. when born he possessed vast knowledge and power.. he died tied to the crooked tree to keep his father from restarted the world again.. he promised that he would return there are numerous legends and stories of kulkul quetzacotl.

this type of behavior survived to the late 1800's even now their is still many monasteries in mexico that have survived in small towns where the residents are of native descent and still have their own dialect. many of these small towns do not like the church.. in turn many modern mexicans who are spanish speaking and are now mixed with spaniard blood do not like the natives who still live in mexico, their is open racism against them.

hmm.. no response.. so sad

We should have suppressed the Aztec religion beyond all comprehension so people like you couldn't whine about how your not allowed to sacrifice people any more.

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
slender native holy man with a beard who preached peace and love..
born from a women by divine means.. the chief sun god spoke to the women and inpregnated her she was a virgin.. when born he possessed vast knowledge and power.. he died tied to the crooked tree to keep his father from restarted the world again.. he promised that he would return there are numerous legends and stories of kulkul quetzacotl

Sounds more like evidence of Jesus than anything else.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Sounds more like evidence of Jesus than anything else.

I'm really bad at stuff. I still can't tell if when you are being facetious.

because the church has a long history of religious tolerance. let alone any that question their absolute authority..

How does that relate in any way to what I said?

the church has never advertised any religion that seemed similar if anything they have demonized them..

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
the church has never advertised any religion that seemed similar if anything they have demonized them..

Your story of Quetzalcoatl (which does match up with the Mormon story doesn't it? Funny that...) seems to be a little too similar to Jesus' to be coincidence.

So either Jesus was in America and told the Aztecs of what was going on, like Mormons believe or the Catholic and Spanish missionaries preaching about Jesus was incorporated by the indigenous peoples into their legends about Quetzalcoatl.

What one do you chose to believe?

There is another option mind you...you totally made that up or heard it somewhere and now believe it even though there is no evidence that any of the Aztecs believe it.

how about neither because some of the stones and pyramids survived with glyphs of the stories all preceding jesus birth and the appearance of the spanish,, :P

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
how about neither because some of the stones and pyramids survived with glyphs of the stories all preceding jesus birth and the appearance of the spanish,, :P

Prove it.

go to mexico and climb the pyramid of the sun or the moon,, i did take the tour..

better yet open a book search for the toltec, omec ppl that preceded the aztecs and mayans who later took on their belief system.. :P

also the spanish records as well of the aztec legends stated that they believed that cortez was the mangod because of his beard and the cross on his armor as well of the wooden cross used to trick the azrecs..
this was written down and sent back to spain stating cortez plan..
hmm...you might want to brush up on your history bub..

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
go to mexico and climb the pyramid of the sun or the moon,, i did take the tour..

better yet open a book search for the toltec, omec ppl that preceded the aztecs and mayans who later took on their belief system.. :P

also the spanish records as well of the aztec legends stated that they believed that cortez was the mangod because of his beard and the cross on his armor as well of the wooden cross used to trick the azrecs..
this was written down and sent back to spain stating cortez plan..
hmm...you might want to brush up on your history bub..

AHHA!

There is no evidence whatsoever that the Aztecs believed Cortes was Quetzalcoatl which does not come from a Spanish source. There is no evidence before the Spanish invasion which suggests Quetzalcoatl would return as some white skinned man-god.

So, can you provide the evidence that Quetzalcoatl shares a story similar to Jesus'? Can you provide evidence that this story pre-dates Jesus' birth. What rationale do you provide to explain such a striking similarity?

If the Aztec story preceeded Christ's birth then surely Jesus is the god they spoke of. Therefore it is more likely that the God Jesus' teachings would be far more fuller and correct than the teachings of the Aztecs?

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i dont know why you try to seem like you somehow no more then others especially when it comes to someone elses culture.

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
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i dont know why you try to seem like you somehow no more then others especially when it comes to someone elses culture.

"A story raped in myth and legend" surely that gives it away?

Perhaps because it is "your" culture you fail to apply appropriate historical criticism to claims and thus fail to distinguish between myth and reality...

Oh, that and you think a youtube video constitutes as evidence.

i just figured you might like to know a little bit of what you are talking about.. i didnt think you would read an entire encylopedia of the aztec and the meso americans...

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_gx5219/is_2000/ai_n19133782

http://en.fairmormon.org/Quetzalcoatl_and_Jesus_Christ

"much of what we know about Tenochtitlán and Aztec customs comes from accounts of Spanish writers who witnessed the last days of the Aztec empire." taking that into account combined with "The Spanish destroyed as many Aztec documents and images as they could, believing the Aztec religion to be not just pagan but devilish"

So is the information the Spanish provided really reliable?

Your fairwiki article is an attempt to separate Jesus and Quzy based on the snake thing...hmmmmmm.

Still failed to provide any evidence.

what evidence do i need to provide for you, his legends preceded the aztec & mayans and went back to the toltecs , olmecs and the incas. to believe that the spaniards and christianity had any influence to quetzacoatle is absurd... its like saying jesus influenced the roman/greek myth of hercules

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
what evidence do i need to provide for you, his legends preceded the aztec & mayans and went back to the toltecs , olmecs and the incas. to believe that the spaniards and christianity had any influence to quetzacoatle is absurd... its like saying jesus influenced the roman/greek myth of hercules

Where are the records? Most of the existing records concerning Quezecoatal are from Spanish sources or other western accounts.

It totally isn't like saying that because our contact with the Greek mythologies has not come via a conquering Christian force who wiped your backward culture of the face of the planet.

by your own admission you said "most" records, clearly their are other records of queztacoatle also your statement is not even remotely true, the spaniard did not keep records of queztacoatle and his myths.
the reason we know of queztacoatle is because of tomb lids with stories carved on them. also his glyps appearing in a lot of walls he was represented all over the aztec city with his many legends. the pyramid of the feathered serpent itself has his stories depicted on it.

the funny thing is you actually think that the spaniard influenced his myths in all the past civilizations.. i find that to be very arrogant and ignorant to believe that to be remotely possible. why dont you look it up yourself you have internet find and study everything you can..

tell you what the native indians did tell some of the scholar monks who wanted to hear their legends and who wrote them down, but their was still buried codex with the same legends found well after the conquistadors were told of his legends.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/System/8870/memory/nquetzalcoatl.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/System/8870/memory/meso.html&usg=__dQp_78tmtmryQaQeTGJsfxVCabM=&h=300&w=212&sz=19&hl=en&start=4&um=1&tbnid=RrN7RTptFZMTCM:&tbnh=116&tbnw=82&prev=/ images%3Fq%3Dlegends%2Bof%2Bthe%2Btoltecs%26um%3D1
%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/images/quetz_cortez1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/order_of_the_quetzalcoatl_ritual.htm&usg=__XSZ10ihYz97APkNpdaYzYLRaNIM=&h=216&w=309&sz=26&hl=en&start=10&um=1&tbnid=RW6YpAoiXkKIqM:&tbnh=82&tbnw=117&prev=/ images%3Fq%3Dlegends%2Bof%2Bthe%2Btoltecs%26um%3D1
%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aztec_codices

Don't be such an idiot.

The Spanish did not influence the myths but they have perverted and changed what they were to suit themselves- do you really think they told the truth when they were telling the people back in Spain about these horrific backward savages?

Now please, try and spell his name properly: Quetzalcoatl a quick google will bring it up.

What you are linking too are not academic sources- what about the books you have read written by credible historians of the Aztec period?

It has become clear that you are some sort of anti-semitic bigoted "nationalist" who looks back at Aztec civilisation as some sort of golden age in your heritage that you long to get back to- no wonder you abhor the idea of Western or even the extremely unlikely Jewish impact on the culture and how we understand it today.

i am not anti semitic what i abhor is the impact that organized religion has had to cultures all over the world. nice try though on your assumption that i would like an aztec civilization and i am a nationalist even though you dont even know what nation i am from.

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
i am not anti semitic what i abhor is the impact that organized religion has had to cultures all over the world. nice try though on your assumption that i would like an aztec civilization and i am a nationalist even though you dont even know what nation i am from.

Antijewiststan?

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
i am not anti semitic what i abhor is the impact that organized religion has had to cultures all over the world. nice try though on your assumption that i would like an aztec civilization and i am a nationalist even though you dont even know what nation i am from.

Wow...we waited five days for some evidence and what...we get that?

What a let down, you have failed to back up your position. Your credibility is lost.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
"A story raped in myth and legend" surely that gives it away?

Perhaps because it is "your" culture you fail to apply appropriate historical criticism to claims and thus fail to distinguish between myth and reality...

Oh, that and you think a youtube video constitutes as evidence.


LOL..."Raped" in myth and legend. Nice spelling mistake, there. Anyways, I guess there could be some similarities between the Christian God and this Quartzkeychaintaco guy, but they would only be purely accidental and coincidences. There's just no way there's any connection.

An interesting thing I watched a bit of on YouTube noted that the thing about there being 12 Apostles, Mary being a virgin, etc had already been repeated for thousands of years in many preceding and long-dead religions due to astrological reasons. I.E. there are 12 characters in the Zodiac, the Virgin Mary is actually Virgo the Virgin, there are astronomical or astrological factors associated on the date on which Christ was born, etc. So there's no reason to think that a strangely Christlike deity and religion could happen to exist on the other side of the world with absolutely no contact with actual Christendom, particularly considering that some of the more advanced (in comparison with the less sophisticated natives) cultures among the various Amerindian peoples had amazing skills and methods of astronomy.

As for how this thread came to have anything to do with Jews whatsoever, I have absolutely no idea in the slightest.

I found this thread by chance, when I asked the almighty god google something...

anyway before talking any more nonsense please watch this

Google: zeitgeistmovie


"ZEITGEIST: THE MOVIE"


Not everything in there is accurate, but pretty much everything that matters is true

Christianity is not special, many religions that share common grounds with Christianity existed, and actually where before Christ >_>

For those that believe blindly this post won't change anything, but for those that feel something is wrong and yet can't see it... well this will guide you in the right pact


PS: Through History there has never been a most despicable religion as Christianity, the horrible acts done in the name of Christ (or better say the "True God" and the excessive cover ups make it the worse of all religions, and it annoys me how people think Islam is wrong just because a few believers take extreme measurements, Christianity set the bar too high and I don't think it can be surpassed.

Shall I make examples?

The Inquisition
Countless innocents burn just because of being suspected of being different (pagans, "witches", "werewolves", "mages", shamans, heresy in general)
The "Holy" Crusades (that continue even today)

PS: one of you pointed out the sacrifices the Aztecs did... well is better to sacrifice yourself in order to make your god happy than to sacrifice others... at least in this way you die happy thinking your life meant something very important, not like "others" that though sins could only be washed with the dead and purification of said person.

Also is not like the sacrifices did it unwillingly, or is not like they killed thousands of people just to probe that their god was better.

Originally posted by Chaoswind
I found this thread by chance, when I asked the almighty god google something...

anyway before talking any more nonsense please watch this

Google: zeitgeistmovie


"ZEITGEIST: THE MOVIE"


Not everything in there is accurate, but pretty much everything that matters is true

Christianity is not special, many religions that share common grounds with Christianity existed, and actually where before Christ >_>

For those that believe blindly this post won't change anything, but for those that feel something is wrong and yet can't see it... well this will guide you in the right pact

Zeitgeist tends to only convince to extremely naive and highly impressionable people.

Originally posted by Chaoswind
PS: Through History there has never been a most despicable religion as Christianity, the horrible acts done in the name of Christ (or better say the "True God" and the excessive cover ups make it the worse of all religions, and it annoys me how people think Islam is wrong just because a few believers take extreme measurements, Christianity set the bar too high and I don't think it can be surpassed.

Shall I make examples?

The Inquisition
Countless innocents burn just because of being suspected of being different (pagans, "witches", "werewolves", "mages", shamans, heresy in general)
The "Holy" Crusades (that continue even today)

Because, you know, ALL Christians are like that in modern times. So that totally applies in a meaningful way.

Have fun living in your fantasy world.

Huh, because all the people that did all those horrible things are dead we should just drop it like it never happened?

Sorry, but I am not a supporter of happy go crappy theology.

Originally posted by Chaoswind
Huh, because all the people that did all those horrible things are dead we should just drop it like it never happened?

I never said anything like that. It's still very important to remember the context of events and not throw around buzzwords at random. Not only does it make you seem like a dick (not to mention fairly dim) but it's intellectually dishonest. Modern Christianity is not Christianity from Medieval times and treating them under the heading of "Christianity" is a fairly blatant attempt to mislead your audience.

Originally posted by Chaoswind
Sorry, but I am not a supporter of happy go crappy theology.

Yes you are. You church just happens to be that inane movie.

Haha

The fact that you believe I support that movie and the people behind it, makes you... oh well lets drop it there.

anyway, I don't support it, I just think is a good way to make people think for a little and search if their claims are true... to with after a little while you will see they exaggerate, but most of their claims have valid points (The best lies are the Half Truths).

Also you seem to know with one is my religion, I would like to ask you with one it is, since you seem so sure of yourself.

Modern Christianity may not be the same as Middle ages Christianity, but is pretty damn close, still closed to other beliefs labeling anything that is too different as Heresy, always thinking that others must be saved because they are wrong, what the heck is so special about Christianity... what makes them believe everyone else is wrong and they are the only ones that are right? (the same applies to most religions), wth maybe the right one is Islam, or the Mormons... or Scientology... so care to elaborate why Christians are right and everyone else is wrong?

THAT is what I dislike

Also what would you do, if after you die you are allowed to go to heaven because before anything else, you were a good person, but there is a problem, Christianity was wrong and the right religion was Buddhism, Buddha the true god tells you that you can go to heaven, but first you must acknowledge him as the true god or he can't save you.

Would you do it? or would you rather go to hell?

Originally posted by Chaoswind
Also what would you do, if after you die you are allowed to go to heaven because before anything else, you were a good person, but there is a problem, Christianity was wrong and the right religion was Buddhism, Buddha the true god tells you that you can go to heaven, but first you must acknowledge him as the true god or he can't save you.

Would you do it? or would you rather go to hell?

That is so funny from the point of view of a Buddhist. Buddha would tell them that they are responsible for the heaven or hell that is in their lives.

Originally posted by Chaoswind
anyway, I don't support it, I just think is a good way to make people think for a little and search if their claims are true... to with after a little while you will see they exaggerate, but most of their claims have valid points (The best lies are the Half Truths).

Except that most people who watch it don't take the time to learn anything about what they say and treat it as absolute fact. ("gospel" if you will)

Originally posted by Chaoswind
Also you seem to know with one is my religion, I would like to ask you with one it is, since you seem so sure of yourself.

Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster most likely. Maybe Voodoo?

Originally posted by Chaoswind
Modern Christianity may not be the same as Middle ages Christianity, but is pretty damn close, still closed to other beliefs labeling anything that is too different as Heresy, always thinking that others must be saved because they are wrong

If you seriously think that Christianity now and in the Middle Ages are highly similar you've managed to completely delude yourself for no apparent reason.

Originally posted by Chaoswind
what the heck is so special about Christianity... what makes them believe everyone else is wrong and they are the only ones that are right? (the same applies to most religions), wth maybe the right one is Islam, or the Mormons... or Scientology... so care to elaborate why Christians are right and everyone else is wrong?

THAT is what I dislike

I don't even believe in God you idiot I just don't like irrational knee jerk reaction by small minded children who have convinced themselves they somehow know anything meaningful.

Originally posted by Chaoswind
Also what would you do, if after you die you are allowed to go to heaven because before anything else, you were a good person, but there is a problem, Christianity was wrong and the right religion was Buddhism, Buddha the true god tells you that you can go to heaven, but first you must acknowledge him as the true god or he can't save you.

Would you do it? or would you rather go to hell?

I have to say I'd be very surprised if I died and God turned out to be real and also be a person who didn't profess any belief in a physically seperate Heaven, Hell or God. That would be pretty weird, really.

I suppose I'd have to ask him why he never his divinity apparent. I'd than thank him for his tolerant beliefs and acknowledge him as God considering I'm dead and it seems in your scenario he seems to have had a way of proving that he's really God.

Also, why would Christianity being wrong be a problem for me more than say anything I actually believe being inaccurate?

edit

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
That is so funny from the point of view of a Buddhist. Buddha would tell them that they are responsible for the heaven or hell that is in their lives.

Hello hypothetical question >_>

I never said they are the same, but there are certain traits that remain unchanged... just look at all the priest that keep saying Evolution is a work of the devil... pfff (and I am not just talking about Rednecks right wingers)



Hello? Religion Forum, I never expected to find a person that doesn't believe in anything in a Religion Forum -_- are you one of those sad forum trolls that check all the new post just to see if they can flame someone?



I mistook you by one of those close minded jerks that take religion to the extreme... I was having a discussion with 2 of them at my university and when they could no longer counter attack my statements/arguments they just ran away and said I was not ready to embrace the lord... with let me quite pissed and I came here to blow some steam... sorry I guess I just decided to pick the fight where I let it with them

Oh well all of you have a good night.

Originally posted by Chaoswind
Hello? Religion Forum, I never expected to find a person that doesn't believe in anything in a Religion Forum -_- are you one of those sad forum trolls that check all the new post just to see if they can flame someone?

Er, I'm not a nihilist. I am a *******, though

It's not a forum for religious people, btw, it's a forum for discussion on religion.

Originally posted by Chaoswind
I mistook you by one of those close minded jerks that take religion to the extreme... I was having a discussion with 2 of them at my university and when they could no longer counter attack my statements/arguments they just ran away and said I was not ready to embrace the lord... with let me quite pissed and I came here to blow some steam... sorry I guess I just decided to pick the fight where I let it with them

Happens to everyone (but not me) from time to time. It's just that we get a quite a few people who express or hold strongly negative views on religion with varying levels of validity. It usually is a reaction to the people here (in the minority actually) who are closeminded fundie evangelists.

Sorry for insulting you it was a, uh *cough* kneejerk reaction that I have to what I see as unfair criticism of people's beliefs.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos


Sorry for insulting you it was a, uh *cough* kneejerk reaction that I have to what I see as unfair criticism of people's beliefs.

Scientology is dumb!

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Scientology is dumb!

superpoke

Soon, all will bow down before the almighty Sterculius, the great Roman god of feces...

Also, it's interesting that someone referred to Cortes as a "white-skinned man-god". That's a generalization of native Europeans, given that Spaniards are extremely swarthy due to centuries of being raped by Arabs, and southern Europeans in general are hardly "Nordic".

Originally posted by UKR
centuries of being raped by Arabs

It would be so awesome if there was a place where people like you could be eternally tortured in suitably ironic ways.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
It would be so awesome if there was a place where people like you could be eternally tortured in suitably ironic ways.


whu are you offended by what he said that you feel you can condemn to some hell?

its not like what he said isnt true or completely inaccurrate.

if anything the spaniard repeated the ugly cycle of raping those they conquered.

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
whu are you offended by what he said that you feel you can condemn to some hell?

Who are you to mutilate the English language like that? Also, you might want to go read the last few posts and note my views on religion before jumping to stupid conclusions.

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
its not like what he said isnt true or completely inaccurrate.

Spaniards look the way they due entirely because they spent centuries being raped by Arabs? I like to see even the most remote evidence of that.

i may have to retake some world history but didnt the persians conquer and rule that part of the world at one time?


either way i just think you dont like the words he chose to use, i am pretty positive that raping was involved as part of the conquest of the ppl as well as simply mixing races by chose.