Dynasty of Evil Discussion

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Dr McBeefington
I won't put up any spoilers just yet, but wondering what you guys thought? I thought it was pretty good, although there were some holes and contradictions and the whole thing felt rushed. Definitely worth the read though.
And whoever said this would be a mind **** to Gideon is right. Darth Bane could have been every single sith lord in his order.

BoratBorat
What role did andeddu play? Was he powerful?

Weltall
Originally posted by BoratBorat
What role did andeddu play? Was he powerful?

After Bane obtains Andeddu's holocron he originally refuses to give Bane his knowledge, so Bane absorbs his own spirit into the holocron, the two spirits battle, and Bane leaves Andeddu screaming in pain quickly and effortlessly and rips the knowledge out with force. That being said, it is noted that Andeddu had been an extraordinarily powerful Sith Lord, and that he was at his strongest when their spirits did battle.

Weltall
As far as what happens at the end of the book:

It's left ambiguous as to who won the battle for Zannah's body between Bane and Zannah though it is hinted that it is Bane and that he now resides in her body.

Dr McBeefington
I don't think it's ambiguous. He went into her body and it became a batter of wills. It's pretty obvious that Bane won even though they tried to pull some BS and make people question the entire Rule of Two Legacy and who really was in each body. Personally, I think Bane's ripping the knowledge out of the holocron technique is one that shouldn't exist because it's ridiculous. Instead of spending time learning the holocron he can just rip out the knowledge and if his mind is capable of internalizing everything without exploding, then he's set.

Also, he has some pretty cool new techniques in this one, and Darth Cognus looks to be very powerful. I worry less about Bane and Cognus and more about Set and what he plans to do with the knowledge of Andeddu.

REXXXX
Andeddu is getting beat to death; I'm tired of hearing about him already.

Still need to read it, though. Maybe once I get done with my current book.

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by REXXXX
Andeddu is getting beat to death; I'm tired of hearing about him already.

Still need to read it, though. Maybe once I get done with my current book.

His power is still unknown, although we can say his knowledge is quite extensive. Although this brings up an interesting point. If he knows essence transfer, why didn't he transfer his essence into the many people that found his holocron? And there's a whole in tbe book where he apparently spent all of his time on Prakith, whereas he was originally a sith lord before the Great Hyperspace War and escaped to Prakith. So dunno his history.

ares834
In ROTS when Anakin pulls his saber out on Sidious his left hand clenches and unclenches.... OMG HES BANE!!!

Dr McBeefington
I think this twist was pretty retarded. It showed that Bane was a coward and didn't really accept being replaced. Zannah had him beat with her ridiculous sith magic and he just couldn't handle it.

BoratBorat
Hmm seems its getting difficult to like bane... hes becoming more and more of a gary stu.


An why is andeddu always getting his ass handed to him? First bane and then a sith pretender.

Dr McBeefington
It's tough to tell. Karness Muur, who was older than Andeddu, was one hell of a powerful force and combined with Morne, was more than a challenge for Krayt and 2 of his sith. Andeddu seems to be knowledgable, but lack the necessary combat skills.

BoratBorat
I felt they should have wrote the plaguies novel instead of ROT, or written about andeddu when he was alive.

As for revan i'm sure they left out writing him because when we play kotor we actually shape his character so i don't think writing a novel about him was a good idea.

I rather see books about freedon nadd and andeddu when they were alive.

Darth_Glentract
WTF was up with Zannah's super strong Sorcery at the end? Have we seen that demonstrated any other time?

I thought that it was still Zannah and that she just absorbed some attributes from Bane. I basically just dont see any reason for Bane to have lied had he won.

ares834
**** if I know...
THe force powers in this novel seemed wacked out a life stealing orb, a cacoon of DS energy, the evil tentacles... WTF!

REXXXX
Peculiar... definitely EU mentality, though.

Ms.Marvel
yeah i was going to say the same thing typical eu.

Dr McBeefington
Personally I would rather see a book on Freedon Nadd. It's obvious he was one of the very top dogs and Bane stated that his holocron took around 10 years to learn.

Darth_Glentract
Freedon would be cool, but I presonally like the mystery left open towards the Ancient Sith. Writing a book on him would kill that. It'd probably worth it though. Better him than that Andeddu book they were planning. I'd love it if they'd make more comics from that time period (as long as they scrap the current comic authors. the new comics suck).

Dr McBeefington
Yea I agree, I'm glad they're focusing more on the ancient sith than new crap. Then again, the new Star Wars game pretty much contradicts everything we've known about that time period, without any canon authority.

ares834
I would like a book about Darth Ruin... That would be awesome.

Dr McBeefington
Not really since they keep retconning when the sith disappear.

Darth_Glentract
Darth Ruin could be cool, but it would have to contain ridiculous amounts of philosphy to stay in line with the character. More books over the New Sith Wars could be cool though.

REXXXX
Heh, I currently have him as the Dark Lord in an RP I'm running...

Not all of the current comic series suck, btw. KOTOR has been fantastic, though it is ending in January, I believe.

darthbanelives
drew just updated his page and apparently zannah won the battle of wills. this is not what makes me mad. its his writing. two or three times it mentions that the loser of the battle of wills will be sent to the void, yet on his spoiler page, drew says part of bane is imprinted on zannah, i say SCREW that. she won the battle of wills, so it should just be her. not only did drew mention that bane's willpower was near unbeatable like 10 times in the book(only to have him lose) then some part of him is in zannah? screw that i'm done with bane books, as drew says at the end of his page he's leaving some things open for the future. this and tfu2 being announced just ruined my night

Dr McBeefington
Link me to this? I have a hard time believing Zannah could have won a battle of wills with Bane, almost impossible. And the tremor in her left hand? I think Drew is just making shit up as he goes along.

Dr McBeefington
http://www.drewkarpyshyn.com/spoiler.htm

Holy shit, this guy definitely reads our forums. This is the crap we were suggesting and insinuating all along. Someone tell him to make a username, since he loves KMC so much.

darthbanelives
yeah he was, and i really think he was making shit up as he goes. i think he wrote it as bane winning then just changed his mind or some shit, because i only know of like 3 people who think zannah won, or did think that. all of the others think bane did.....gotta go inform the other threads that were just getting used to bane living....

Dr McBeefington
Everything he just posted is exactly what we thought happened. How the hell does Zannah have a stronger will than Bane? I don't think I've seen anyone in the mythos with Bane's will. Unless of course, Bane somehow failed with the essence transfer because he didn't learn it properly, or something. Other than that, Drew is full of shit.

darthbanelives
i don't understand how zannah is supposed to be stronger in will, especially with drew going on and on about bane's willpower being so amazing. i can't BELIEVE he made zannah win that!! its not that its her its just he really gave me the impression throughout the book that bane was gonna be the victor. Zannah had tenticles, thats about it ha. bane used his will power to break one of her strongest spells, used his willpower to invade andeddu's holocron, its just ridiculous. i don't even like the book anymore, just because of the way he wrote about bane. the old man didn't even seem to be "weakening" in my eyes. and zannah certainly didn't seem like she was that great. Drew is really, REALLY full of shit. i wouldn't have cared if he had made it seem like zannah was going to win, but to me he completely handed it to bane. when i read the spoiler page i seriously thought it was a joke for a minute.

Dr McBeefington
The only thing gayer about the ending is the storyline of the new SW game.

darthbanelives
yeah i agree, i thought starkiller was DEAD wtf?!

Dr McBeefington
No not starkiller. The game that is trying to claim that Revan somehow was corrupted by the sith Emperor, thereby destroying the plot of KOTOR, and making virtually every sith in trailer look exactly like Revan. It's like they're not trying anymore.

darthbanelives
ohhh well that is just as bad if not worse. i'm thinking about giving up on SW alltogether i swear...they really are doing just terrible in my eyes. i've been thinking this for awhile though.

ares834
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
http://www.drewkarpyshyn.com/spoiler.htm

Holy shit, this guy definitely reads our forums. This is the crap we were suggesting and insinuating all along. Someone tell him to make a username, since he loves KMC so much.
They were talking about it on TFN and he actually dropped by a while back.

BoratBorat
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
No not starkiller. The game that is trying to claim that Revan somehow was corrupted by the sith Emperor, thereby destroying the plot of KOTOR, and making virtually every sith in trailer look exactly like Revan. It's like they're not trying anymore. Now where was it mentioned by the developers that revan was corrupted by the sith emperor?

Still just to remind you, canon in SW = shit now seeing the path drew has taken along with the new game, but still bioware > lucasfarts.

Autokrat
It was mentioned in an interview with one of the lead writers.

Some key points

* The Sith Emperor was leading the Sith during the Great Hyperspace War (reeks of Naga Sadow...)

* The Jed believed he was dead.

* He vanished and fled back to the true Sith.

* Revan encountered him (presumably led by information on Malachor V)

* The Sith Emperor completed Revan's fall and sent Revan to serve as a vanguard attack on the Republic. Revan instead betrays the Emperor leading to his motivations and plot behind the KotoR games.

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Autokrat
It was mentioned in an interview with one of the lead writers.
It doesn't make it valid man, unless you're invalidating KOTOR. It was plainly stated why Revan fell, why he went to war, why he wore his mask. Yet in the new game, most of the sith are wearing Revan's robes and mask. The game shits on most Old Republic continuity.


I think it was abundantly clear that it wasn't Naga Sadow. It might have been Shar Dakhan. According to Wikipedia, the Essential Atlas shows Sadow and another unnamed Sith Lord going in different directions, Sadow to Yavin IV, the unnamed sith lord to the Unknown Regions. And Sadow was killed by Nadd. The writer for this game hasn't bothered to read previous literature at all.


Wait what? No this game retcons the idea of the True Sith. We originally thought they were the descendants of King Adas who fled into the Unknown Regions millennia before the Dark Jedi came to Korriban. Now they're just the Sith Emperor and everyone else who wasn't part of the Sith originally. I'm really not sure why they would call this bunch "the True Sith", seeing as how aside from the Sith Emperor, there's nothing "true" about them. It also makes you wonder what knowledge be brought there, seeing as how he didn't exactly have time to gather up his crap from Korriban and what not. I honestly think the writer just winged it here.



This makes no sense, because Revan was already vergin towards the Dark Side before he allegedy met the Emperor. Why would he betray him and try to prepare the republic as a sith lord? Again this reasoning invalides KOTOR. His goal was to find the Star Forge, meeting the Sith Emperor simply doesn't fit into the plot.

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Everything he just posted is exactly what we thought happened. How the hell does Zannah have a stronger will than Bane? I don't think I've seen anyone in the mythos with Bane's will. Unless of course, Bane somehow failed with the essence transfer because he didn't learn it properly, or something. Other than that, Drew is full of shit.

Totally my idea, I don't think it was yours as much...

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=521615&pagenumber=3

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
And it's pretty obvious that Bane got into Zannah's body unless you're contesting that a match of wills somehow favors Zannah. Not to mention, her left hand was twitching afterwards, something that affected Bane.

The only way I see Zannah being Zannah if the ritual somehow failed while Bane was in her body. And Bane had no reason to scare the hell out of Cognus telling her that it was him.

Who is going to want to serve under a master who can transfer themselves into your body?

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I thought that it was still Zannah and that she just absorbed some attributes from Bane. I basically just dont see any reason for Bane to have lied had he won.


Point for Glentract. BTW, this is like the third time this seems to have happened. The name Killicks I made up in a short story I wrote like a year before Dark Nest (the Journal of Ajunta Pall. It is posted on here somewhere.) The same with the time frame for when Pall lived and saying that he was a Dark Jedi instead of a Sith (cause they hadn't founded the Sith yet).

Autokrat
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington I think it was abundantly clear that it wasn't Naga Sadow. It might have been Shar Dakhan. According to Wikipedia, the Essential Atlas shows Sadow and another unnamed Sith Lord going in different directions, Sadow to Yavin IV, the unnamed sith lord to the Unknown Regions. And Sadow was killed by Nadd. The writer for this game hasn't bothered to read previous literature at all.

I was unaware of that myself as I don't own the Atlas.


Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
This makes no sense, because Revan was already vergin towards the Dark Side before he allegedy met the Emperor. Why would he betray him and try to prepare the republic as a sith lord? Again this reasoning invalides KOTOR. His goal was to find the Star Forge, meeting the Sith Emperor simply doesn't fit into the plot.

It is possible that Revan betrayed the Emperor for exactly the same reasons he decided to try and conquer the Republic. That whole greater good concept. Just because Revan was "serving" this Emperor doesn't mean he had to be loyal. The Star Forge still can serve as a means to an end.

Personally I think the entire thing is retarded myself, but I'm just trying to see how this could all make sense... sort of.

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Autokrat
I was unaware of that myself as I don't own the Atlas.




It is possible that Revan betrayed the Emperor for exactly the same reasons he decided to try and conquer the Republic. That whole greater good concept. Just because Revan was "serving" this Emperor doesn't mean he had to be loyal. The Star Forge still can serve as a means to an end.

Personally I think the entire thing is retarded myself, but I'm just trying to see how this could all make sense... sort of.

You're right, it's totally retarded. The timeline doesn't allow for this to happen at all. Revan and Malak disappeared for 10 months. So in 10 months they are seduced by the sith emperor and were told to lead an invasion? Or is the writer full of shit? Plus why do most of the sith that attacked Coruscant look like Revan? If they're implying that Revan dressed like that after he was corrupted, then they obviously don't read the KOTOR comics which explains why Revan has the Mandalorian mask.

Autokrat
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
You're right, it's totally retarded. The timeline doesn't allow for this to happen at all. Revan and Malak disappeared for 10 months. So in 10 months they are seduced by the sith emperor and were told to lead an invasion? Or is the writer full of shit? Plus why do most of the sith that attacked Coruscant look like Revan? If they're implying that Revan dressed like that after he was corrupted, then they obviously don't read the KOTOR comics which explains why Revan has the Mandalorian mask.

I guess the Sith Emperor was so stunned by Revan's awesome taste in fashion he had it declared an official policy.

Personally I think this the EU's biggest problem, this apparent lack of communication between different writers and designers.

Dr McBeefington
Well to be honest, I don't think I've ever seen a writer shit on so many different sources all at once. It's as if they said "**** it, this is n-canon", and went from there.

darthbanelives
i was just combing through drew k's blogs and i found something interesting. he says apparently there was supposed to be a showdown in ROT for the mantle of master. he says he just wasn't ready for one of them to die, and that he enjoyed writing about both. now, after reading his spoiler blog a few times over, i realize he wasn't ready to let either of them die in DoE either. he's saying there is some part of bane still there, just in zannah's body. to me, that's shitty writing. he had three books about them, he should have only had one victor in DoE, i see no point in cramming both of them into Zannah's body. if there is a fourth book, which there probably will be, i won't be reading it. Drew just lost thousands of cool points in my book, he's too attached to bane and zannah to let one of them go. next thing we know, zannah will take over cognus, and then it'll be three's company in the iktochi's head. GAY.

Darth_Glentract
I believe that proper term is ghey.

Gideon
I'm definitely a bit late.

darthbanelives
True but youre a bit late

Slash_KMC
You have teh awsomezz grammaaaaa!

Red Nemesis
Originally posted by Gideon
I'm definitely a bit late.

I'm sure it'll come eventually. I mean, you have been careful with your boyfriend, haven't you?

shifty

Darth_Glentract
^Haha exactly what I was thinking.

Lord Lucien
Thrice it was thought.

truejedi
well, I just finished the book, in 2.5 hours, so i'm so glad i didn't spend 27 dollars on it....

My opinion is that Zannah won that confrontation.

Darth_Glentract
That was the authors opinion as well, like we've been saying for a few days now.

BoratBorat
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
You're right, it's totally retarded. The timeline doesn't allow for this to happen at all. Revan and Malak disappeared for 10 months. So in 10 months they are seduced by the sith emperor and were told to lead an invasion? Or is the writer full of shit? Plus why do most of the sith that attacked Coruscant look like Revan? If they're implying that Revan dressed like that after he was corrupted, then they obviously don't read the KOTOR comics which explains why Revan has the Mandalorian mask. You do know that drew karpyshyn IS the writer behind TOR?

Dr McBeefington
That explains a lot

truejedi
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
That was the authors opinion as well, like we've been saying for a few days now.
srry, not been spending much time on sw recently.

akpwnz
I made an account just to discuss this book. I think the reason there is such a huge discussion is because Drew ****ed us, in being clear about the ending. If I hadn't found this thread and looked at spoilers, I would still be under the impression that Bane was successful with his essence transfer.

However, he tells Cognus that Bane is dead. I thought this was done to show her that the rule of 2 must be obeyed, giving her the first real lesson as a sith. If he had been like "y0 its me Bane but I have **** and a vag now", Cognus would have less respect for him, and the Rule of Two in general.

I'm going to stick with my gut and say that Zannah = Bane, even though Drew completely ****ed this up.

Edit: Also

"Still, some people interpreted the scene that way. I guess I can see it, but you’re making a lot of assumptions to come to that conclusion. First, Zannah is asking Cognus questions that Bane already knows the answer to. Yes, it could be part of “tricking” Cognus, but that assumes Bane would *want* to trick Cognus. And I honestly don’t know where people get that impression from. Bane WANTED a stronger successor to overthrow him; the only reason he learned the ritual was because he needed to prolong his life if Zannah proved to be weak. Yet somehow people made the jump that Bane not only took over Zannah’s body, but was then hiding the fact from Cognus in order to later take over her body… possibly in a line all the way down to Sidious himself. (That is NOT what I was trying to imply, but a lot of readers went there.)"

Then why even have him try the transfer in the first place?

REXXXX
I think the idea of the transfer was that Bane was running out of time in his own life span; he wasn't really old or anything, but in thinking that Zannah was not living up to what he expected of her, he thought he would have to train a whole new Apprentice... something that took several decades with Zannah alone. He wanted a fresh youthful body so he could try again.

Meanwhile, I think Zannah won out.

Also, I do rightly recall that Karpyshyn actually has an account on KMC and has posted here before...

Autokrat
There was some discord in Bane's behavior. Bane is the very definition of a character that only cares about himself. He has no personality traits aside from being a complete monster. Now, since he is a Sith, then he is utterly and completely selfish and should always desire power since that's what Sith do, because Sith are two dimensional carboard cutouts of cartoonish villainy.

Considering this I ask, why does Bane want to train a second apprentice if he gets a hold of the eternal life secret? Could he not simply body hop over and over again and became the ultimate Sith Lord? Does he do it out of a loyalty to the Sith Order? If so, then he is not the Sith'ari, because the Sith'ari is a being that is completely free, a creature with no obligations to anything other than themselves.

It doesn't make sense as to why Bane would seek out the secret to immortality, only so he could have more time to train a new apprentice. Why should he care if he can live forever? He is a being of complete selfishness. He should realistically not care.

Red Nemesis
This would be kool. Lulz if we called him dumb and chased him away (like what happened on the Mugglenet chat roam oance i think?)

truejedi
Originally posted by Autokrat
There was some discord in Bane's behavior. Bane is the very definition of a character that only cares about himself. He has no personality traits aside from being a complete monster. Now, since he is a Sith, then he is utterly and completely selfish and should always desire power since that's what Sith do, because Sith are two dimensional carboard cutouts of cartoonish villainy.

Considering this I ask, why does Bane want to train a second apprentice if he gets a hold of the eternal life secret? Could he not simply body hop over and over again and became the ultimate Sith Lord? Does he do it out of a loyalty to the Sith Order? If so, then he is not the Sith'ari, because the Sith'ari is a being that is completely free, a creature with no obligations to anything other than themselves.

It doesn't make sense as to why Bane would seek out the secret to immortality, only so he could have more time to train a new apprentice. Why should he care if he can live forever? He is a being of complete selfishness. He should realistically not care.

exactly. his goal was for the sith to rule the galaxy. Since he can rule the galaxy personally now, there was no reason for the rule of 2 to continue.

Tell me something though, anybody think we shall see a tie-in with a PT character or even (OHMIGOD!!!!) Abeloth being tied to Set, who escaped with the secret of eternal life?

Allankles
Doesn't seem like a well planed series. Where is Drew going with the whole immortality hogwash?

Lightsnake
I'm thinking now that Andeddu was one of the Sith Lords who ruled from the New Sith Empire...after Ruin

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Lightsnake
I'm thinking now that Andeddu was one of the Sith Lords who ruled from the New Sith Empire...after Ruin

That definitely seems more plausible than being an ancient sith but I thought DOE alluded to him being part of the ancient sith empire.

REXXXX
He doesn't seem like one.

truejedi
see, he obviously did die, since his body still existed, so Andeddu might have lived for thousands of years, but died long before DOE, so he couldn't be the true sith could he?

Dr McBeefington
He couldn't be true sith because he is described as being a DLOTS on Korriban at a certain point, so that rules out the True Sith Empire.Then again, it's equally as impossible for him to be of the ancient sith, as I don't recall anybody traveling to the sith empire to become a DLOTS, then going back to the deep core. I'm going to have to go ahead and agree with LS. The only logical time era to put him in is the era of the New Sith Wars.

BoratBorat
Damn it was even speculated that andeddu was the first darth in the essential guide to the force, DOE now contradicts and ruins that.

DarthLazious
So whats next for Darth Zannah and her apprentice? They should keep the story going.

BoratBorat
They should die off, star wars is getting hidiously boring with the same old "sith hunting jedi" crap.

Ms.Marvel
dont know about you but star wars in general is really boring nowadays... aside from the people who are looking forward to tfu2, when was the last time anyone here has thought "oh wow im so excited cant wait for to come out!"

seriously whenever people discuss anything star wars related here its generally to point out how/why its flawed >_>


imo the only way ill probbaly be intrested in starwars anymore is if something comes out that has absolutely nothing to do with/is not related to: skywalkers, people associated with skywalkers, and the force...

mattatom
Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
"oh wow im so excited cant wait for to come out!" Fixed wink

BoratBorat
Which is why i found mass effect a breath of fresh air, the ME universe is far more compelling than star wars, i mean i actually felt attached to the characters.
The motivations of the majority of star wars characters are never made clear thus making them less compelling.
Not to mention the amount of horrible characters and gary stus there are.

truejedi
I'm patiently waiting for the next FOTJ. People were halfway excited over Abeloth, if i remember. For some reason, there were 2 FOTJ in 2 months, and then an 8month wait. Poor planning. easy to lose a book series completely in 8 months.

chilled monkey
Originally posted by Autokrat
There was some discord in Bane's behavior. Bane is the very definition of a character that only cares about himself. He has no personality traits aside from being a complete monster. Now, since he is a Sith, then he is utterly and completely selfish and should always desire power since that's what Sith do, because Sith are two dimensional carboard cutouts of cartoonish villainy.


See that is why Darth Krayt (Legacy) is awesome. Because he made the Sith into something that isn't just "power, power, power." He and his followers aren't totally selfish and believe in something bigger than themselves.

Sorry for going OT.

Originally posted by BoratBorat
An why is andeddu always getting his ass handed to him? First bane and then a sith pretender.

Because as Wyrrlok pointed out, Andeddu is a big chicken. I'd say Wyrrlok is a more true Sith than him, because Wyrrlok isn't a coward.

Red Nemesis
Nothin says sith=!coward.

chilled monkey
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Nothin says sith=!coward.

Beg your pardon?

truejedi
Sith not equal to coward

Red put it in C is all.

chilled monkey
Originally posted by truejedi
Sith not equal to coward

Red put it in C is all.

Okay, with you. Being a Sith does not make one a coward. So Andeddu being a coward means he wasn't fit to be called Sith.

Glad you agree.

truejedi
You aren't with him yet. Being a sith does not equal "not a coward"

That's what he meant. My explanation was missing a "not"

Red Nemesis
Being a Sith has no bearing on the status of one's valor.

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