Anakin fell to the dark side way too quickly

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Hewhoknowsall
OK, so Anakin's really close to Obi Wan. They're like brothers. He's a really good person, fighting for the Republic and helping people. He all cool.

Then Palpatine begins talking to him about this sith lord that could prevent people from dying. Anakin is clearly interested.

Anakin then learns that Palpatine is really Darth Sidious. He tells Mace Windu who tries to arrest Sidious. They duel, and Mace defeats Sidious. Anakin inadvertently helps Sidious get back and kill Mace.

Anakin regrets what he did, but then just kneels down to Sidious, a SIT H LORD, whom he's not only been taught to hate (for good reason), but has also had bad experiences with them, and BELIEVES Sidious's claim that they can learn to save Padme, and actually BELIEVES that Sidious cares.

So then SUDDENLY, he goes and starts slaughtering younglings and Jedi whom he used to fight alongside. He seems to hate them all the sudden for NO reason.

He also suddenly hates Obi Wan for NO reason, and hates the Jedi for NO reason.

Autokrat
GL is a shitty writer. That's about it/

truejedi
Read the new book:"Stealth" Or "Gambit" or something like that. Lots of anakin backstory. He was taking the death of every clone trooper personally.

One Free Man
Leave it to the shitty next-to-fan-fic writers to correct GL's mistakes...

Galan007
Anakin's 'dark side' had been building up for a long while before RotS, but yeah, I agree that the actual transformation from a conflicted Jedi Knight into a 'slaughterer of younglings' was a bit too sudden.

...Though I guess once you decide aid the Dark Lord of the Sith in murdering one of the most esteemed Jedi Masters in the order, there's really nothing left to do but become a Sith yourself.... It's not like the Jedi would have taken Anakin back with open arms after something like that. /shrug

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Galan007
Anakin's 'dark side' had been building up for a long while before RotS, but yeah, I agree that the actual transformation from a conflicted Jedi Knight into a 'slaughterer of younglings' was a bit too sudden.

...Though I guess once you decide aid the Dark Lord of the Sith in murdering one of the most esteemed Jedi Masters in the order, there's really nothing left to do but become a Sith yourself.... It's not like the Jedi would have taken Anakin back with open arms after something like that. /shrug

If a guy kills your family and burns down your home/all of your money and possesions, would you join his gang simply because you have "nothing left to do"? Of course not.

Galan007
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
If a guy kills your family and burns down your home/all of your money and possesions, would you join his gang simply because you have "nothing left to do"? Of course not. That's not really what happened, though. Anakin stopped Mace from killing Sidious, so that he could be taught how to save Padme (or so he thought.) And after assisting a Sith lord in the slaying of a Jedi Master, there was really no turning back.

So in answer to your question: if I were already an accomplice to murder, and IF the evil guy I just aided in said murder also told me that he knew a way to save my wife's life, I probably would join him. It's either that or be imprisoned for the rest of my life, and/or be killed for my crimes.

It's one of those "damned if you do, damned if you don't" type of situations. srug

truejedi
I'm telling you, read the book, it paints a WHOLE NEW anakin. The reasons, with that book, that he fell are complex, and all of the sudden, good literature.

Shoes
btw the whole Invisible Hand fight gave him a feel for the dark side.

Gideon
Stover did a pretty good job with Anakin, even though he didn't have much to work with.

I just hated how every other word was in italics.

Lord Lucien
It really makes it hard to properly cite passages.

Hewhoknowsall
Still, Anakin falling to the dark side despite being a very caring person, hating the sith and being warned for almost his entire life to not trust them suddenly turns to the dark side. A few minutes before he does he's still the loving and caring Anakin, and then BANG he turns evil and ruthless. WTF?

Shoes
1 - Tusken Raiderslol
2 - Watto
3 - Invisible Hand
4 - Padme
5 - Padme
6 - Padme
7 - Spying (both for and on Palpatine)
8 - They won't put him on the council
9 - Padme

truejedi
He trusts sidious. Death of his Padawan. (however that happens)

Death of his soldiers.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
If a guy kills your family and burns down your home/all of your money and possesions, would you join his gang simply because you have "nothing left to do"? Of course not. You didn't watch the movie or read the novel, did you?

truejedi
lol

SithAce_1
Remember the whole "bring balance to the force thing". He brought balance not through himself but through his children. Luke going darkside with Emporer clone and Leia bringing him back etc. You could say it was his destiny to go bad. But I agree that the movie really screwed it up on the how. Ever notice in all movies they tend to wrap it up in the last 10-30 minutes.

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Shoes
1 - Tusken Raiderslol
2 - Watto
3 - Invisible Hand
4 - Padme
5 - Padme
6 - Padme
7 - Spying (both for and on Palpatine)
8 - They won't put him on the council
9 - Padme

Him turning to the dark side would dishonor the sacrafices of his mother, his padawan (if Ahsoka dies in the CW, which is unlikely), his troops, etc. Surely Anakin would know that.

mattatom
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Him turning to the dark side would dishonor the sacrafices of his mother, his padawan (if Ahsoka dies in the CW, which is unlikely), his troops, etc. Surely Anakin would know that. It's called Revenge. If someone killed my mother I'd try my best to hurt them and rid them off this earth.

Ahsoka does die it's already been confirmed. Anakin would of felt the death of every clone he lead and as a result his heart would get hurt just that little bit more.

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by mattatom
It's called Revenge. If someone killed my mother I'd try my best to hurt them and rid them off this earth.

Ahsoka does die it's already been confirmed. Anakin would of felt the death of every clone he lead and as a result his heart would get hurt just that little bit more.

Sidious was responsible for the death of many of his troops since Sidious started the war in the first place. I also wouldn't be surprised if Sidious engineered Shimi's death and Ahsoka's as well. And yet Anakin serves him?

Nephthys
Rise of Darth Vader explains quite a bit about why Anakin did what he did and why he continued to serve Palpatine after getting pwned. Apparantly he knew he was being manipulated but just went along with it.

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Nephthys
Rise of Darth Vader explains quite a bit about why Anakin did what he did and why he continued to serve Palpatine after getting pwned. Apparantly he knew he was being manipulated but just went along with it.

Which shows how much of an idiot Anakin was.

Gideon
N
Rise of Darth Vader explains quite a bit about why Anakin did what he did and why he continued to serve Palpatine after getting pwned. Apparantly he knew he was being manipulated but just went along with it.

I think "just went along with it" is a bit misleading.

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Gideon
I think "just went along with it" is a bit misleading.

Yeah, he tried to overthrow Sidious using secret apprentices many times. Still though, I don't see why Anakin turned to the dark side in the first place.

Nephthys
Its been a while since I read it but I distinctly recalling that he was able to recognise that Palps had been manipulating him for a very long time, questioned whether he was even telling the truth about his masters immortality thing and put two and two together and figured out just who had been behind the war. He seems to have been pretty much in the know for a deranged psychotic.

This either makes him smarter, dumber or more evil than he's generally portrayed as at that point.

edit: Ah, I can't remember though whether he figured this out at the time or after though. I think theres mentions of him figuring shit out in the ROTS novel as well.....

edit2: You do realise you're on ignore hwkn?

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Nephthys
Its been a while since I read it but I distinctly recalling that he was able to recognise that Palps had been manipulating him for a very long time, questioned whether he was even telling the truth about his masters immortality thing and put two and two together and figured out just who had been behind the war. He seems to have been pretty much in the know for a deranged psychotic.

This either makes him smarter, dumber or more evil than he's generally portrayed as at that point.

edit: Ah, I can't remember though whether he figured this out at the time or after though. I think theres mentions of him figuring shit out in the ROTS novel as well.....

If that's true, then all of them.

Smart for figuring it out.
At the same being in another way stupid for letting Sidious manipulate him like that without having any sort of counter.
Evil for not alerting the Jedi about it.

Gideon
N,

Vader realized (when Palpatine revealed himself to be Darth Sidious) that he had been manipulated practically his whole adult life, hence his admission in Revenge of the Sith that he would like to kill Palpatine (which Palpatine confirms, "I know you would"wink. But it's not like Vader just went along with it.

He was plotting to usurp and destroy Sidious for that bullshit from day one. He just accepted he wasn't powerful enough to do it right now.

Allankles
Originally posted by truejedi
Read the new book:"Stealth" Or "Gambit" or something like that. Lots of anakin backstory. He was taking the death of every clone trooper personally.

That's all well and good, but how to justify going from there to killing younglings at the order of a decrepit evil sorceror?

This is where ROS falls on its face. He doesn't have to turn pure evil to fall, simply making bad judgments (like wounding Mace Windu) would have sufficed, especially if those judgements were followed up by an accidental death of his love, and the severe injuries he suffered in Mustafar.

Anakin was a troubled Jedi but he was far from being the cold ruthless murderer that we saw killing younglings.

truejedi
The killing younglings thing is the ONE THING that is so far out of character that it doesn't even begin to fit. Everything else was justifiable. (in anakin's mind, anyway) The Jedi were traitors, to him, he could justify killing them.

However, the younglings... You are right, it just doesn't fit in ANY OTHER dark side story that we see.


However: What if he didn't? Sidious got his force-sensitives somewhere. Obi-Wan said that Anakin killed Younglings. Said it to Padme in order to get her tell him where Anakin was.

What if he lied? What if Anakin merely captured the younglings and turned them over to Sidious?

Lord Lucien
"Killed not by clones, this... Padawan. By a lightsaber, he was."

"Who? Who could have done this?"




Anakin: "You Separatists fight like children! I'd know!"

truejedi
Padawans =/= younglings. Younglings could have lived. The Padawan shot down by troopers on the docking bay was an enemy. A viable enemy. Kenobi in TPM was a Padawan. As was Anakin in AOTC.

Perhaps Anakin simply delivered the Younglings to Sidious.

Ms.Marvel
considering he was actually shown fighting/killing them on the security camera... no.

truejedi
killing the younglings on the security camera? I guess I don't remember that. I'll go look. and so help you if you are wrong!

truejedi
Nope wrong! he wasn't killing Younglings! Killing people just as tall as he was at .39

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yt4G6RPrO64

Ms.Marvel
D=

maybe i am wrong! perhaps what was shown in the security footage was him fighting cin drallig instead. . .

edit- fuuuuu!

truejedi
So what if Kenobi LIED?!?! I don't remember Stover confirming the murder of Younglings either.

Ms.Marvel
well there were dead younglings here.

yoda is talking about a padawan there being killed by a lightsaber but for one thing that padawan looks like hes like 13, and for another its pretty unrealistic that all of the younglings were killed by clones and anakin only killed that padawan, considering the padawan is amidst a sea of dead younglings. seems like wishful thinking.

truejedi
Not wishful thinking so much as trying to make it all fit. Notice Yoda says that "Padawan, killed by a lightsaber, he was."

If the younglings were also killed by a lightsaber,why did Yoda point out the Padawan, instead of saying "they were killed by a lightsaber?"

Ms.Marvel
because when youre trying to point out a hard to distinguish observation its easier to put focus on one object that represents your point at a time then to make a general statement. for example if you want to point out the low quality of a row of cars you'd specify by saying "look at the scratches on this ones body, and the cracked windshield on that one." as opposed to just "these cars are low quality".

thats actually the entire of point of even saying "for example". we understand specific instances better than general statements. thats also why sterotypes exist.

truejedi
Well, considering Anakin came up the temple steps with an entire division right behind him, and consider THIS from the novelization where Kenobi is watching the video

:"Stone-Faced, Obi-Wan watched younglings run into the room, fleeing blaster-fire. He watched Cin Drillig and a pair of teenage Padawans--was that Whie, the boy Yoda had brought to Vjun? Backing into the scene, blades whirling, cutting down the advancing clone troopers with deflected Bolts.

He wached a lightsaber blade flick into the shot, cutting down first One Padawan, then the other. He watched the brisk stride of a caped figure who hacked through Drallig's shoulder, then stood aside as the old Troll fell dying to let the rest of the clones blast the children to shreds.



Eso.... He didn't do it. Defintly complicit to the crime though.

Also: I thought Whie was the boy who Bail saw die? But Kenobi saw him in this shot. So WHO WAS THAT then?

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by truejedi
Not wishful thinking so much as trying to make it all fit. Notice Yoda says that "Padawan, killed by a lightsaber, he was."

If the younglings were also killed by a lightsaber,why did Yoda point out the Padawan, instead of saying "they were killed by a lightsaber?" You're really reaching about something silly. If you're trying to spare the Anakin character and thus the story from bad movie-making, then this instance is bottom of the priority list. The film may not directly state "Anakin murdered children, he's bad" but it does heavily... heavily imply that he did via the inclusion of Vader and only Vader marching up to the temple, Vader activating his saber in front of the children, and the sudden transition from Yoda and Obi-Wan's observation to the butchering of the Separatist Council by Vader. Lucas sucked at making his prequels, but it would take an absolute retard who has been living on Mars his whole life not to understand what is being conveyed. That or the worst nitpicker since... well since nitpicking began.

truejedi
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
You're really reaching about something silly. If you're trying to spare the Anakin character and thus the story from bad movie-making, then this instance is bottom of the priority list. The film may not directly state "Anakin murdered children, he's bad" but it does heavily... heavily imply that he did via the inclusion of Vader and only Vader marching up to the temple, Vader activating his saber in front of the children, and the sudden transition from Yoda and Obi-Wan's observation to the butchering of the Separatist Council by Vader. Lucas sucked at making his prequels, but it would take an absolute retard who has been living on Mars his whole life not to understand what is being conveyed. That or the worst nitpicker since... well since nitpicking began.

Lucien, after calling me a nitpicker, did you read the quote from ROTS?

Apparently Stover was also trying to save Lucas from his giant plot-leap.

MikeMikeTheMike
Anakin was a great character with so many emotional senes. wouldn't you kill some random black guy to save your pregnant wife and unborn child? Once ur @ that point, there's no going back ether. The jedi would have had his head. Had 2 get rid of tehm all.

truejedi
thanks for that MMTM

MikeMikeTheMike
ur welcome.

I mean I know he broke party code and put hos b4 bros but srsly... Windu wuz just annoyin.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by truejedi
Lucien, after calling me a nitpicker, did you read the quote from ROTS?

Apparently Stover was also trying to save Lucas from his giant plot-leap. I did, and I don't know what you're trying to prove. Vader was the only lightsaber-wielder on the Empire's side attacking the Jedi. Unless you're suggesting that the scene from the movie is meant to imply that another Jedi turned on the younglings... I really don't know what the point of this is.

truejedi
What? No. It simply says in the novelization that Anakin wasn't actually the one killing the children, and nothing from the movie contradicts that.

I admit I am reaching, and I'm doing it purposely in order to better fill in the story around Anakin's ridiculous fall. Its a theory, i'm certainly not expecting you to take it as canon gold.

MikeMikeTheMike
if u maek like a simplistic lien of events and think about it that way the movie is rlly gr8. the way it went was good, it was just rlly bad liens.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by truejedi
What? No. It simply says in the novelization that Anakin wasn't actually the one killing the children, and nothing from the movie contradicts that.

I admit I am reaching, and I'm doing it purposely in order to better fill in the story around Anakin's ridiculous fall. Its a theory, i'm certainly not expecting you to take it as canon gold. According to Wookiee that cites something called Star Wars Rebellion #6: The Ahakista Gambit, Part 1, after slashing Drallig, the Clone Troopers gunned down the group of Padawans he was protecting.


The film, however, clearly states there were younglings (don't argue about whether they were all children or whether it was "just that one" Yoda was inspecting and he wasn't really a child) that were killed by a lightsaber. That group was lieing far too close to each other for one of them to have been killed by Vader while the rest were all shot a foot and a half away from him. And unless those tricky cubs hiding in the Council chambers were wily enough to actually get past Vader...

Seriously, this is silly. The book makes his fall all the more believable as it is.

truejedi
"stood aside" definitly fills in the gaps on that, if that is a theory I want to play with. No way to prove it, but no way to disprove it either, subjectivity reigns. Clearly ROTS was trying to paint a picture where Anakin did the killing, BUT... if we can make it fit better without defying canon, why not?

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by truejedi
"stood aside" definitly fills in the gaps on that, if that is a theory I want to play with. No way to prove it, but no way to disprove it either, subjectivity reigns. Clearly ROTS was trying to paint a picture where Anakin did the killing, BUT... if we can make it fit better without defying canon, why not? Because frankly it does defy canon. Defies the movie. At least one is confirmed killed by Vader, and common sense (and I'm stressing this; defiance of the movie's very clear implications is delving in to HWKN's waters) dictates he killed like a dozen others too.



We don't need to remove the Younglings deaths at his hands to make his character likable and sympathetic. The novel won me over well before Knightfall, and continued after it too. Movies (canon Vader kills children)=shite. Novels (no specific mention of said killings)=brilliant.

MikeMikeTheMike
Obi-wan said that the security holograms showed him that anakin had been killing younglins wen he was talking 2 padame.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by MikeMikeTheMike
Obi-wan said that the security holograms showed him that anakin had been killing younglins wen he was talking 2 padame. Bingo.


And I just remembered the prelude to Kenobi's and Yoda's talk: "Not even the children survived." "Killed not by clones..."

MikeMikeTheMike
I may not read the books but I certainly kno teh moviez. Happy Dance

truejedi
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Because frankly it does defy canon. Defies the movie. At least one is confirmed killed by Vader, and common sense (and I'm stressing this; defiance of the movie's very clear implications is delving in to HWKN's waters) dictates he killed like a dozen others too.



We don't need to remove the Younglings deaths at his hands to make his character likable and sympathetic. The novel won me over well before Knightfall, and continued after it too. Movies (canon Vader kills children)=shite. Novels (no specific mention of said killings)=brilliant.




First, where is the confirmed kill of a Youngling by Anakin? Back that up?

We have a confirmed kill of 3 PADAWANS by anakin. I am just asking for the youngling evidence. You haven't provided it yet.

This isn't HWKN's waters, he would be claiming it was fact until you disproved it, wink I think its just interesting to think about. Sometimes I like to discuss star wars.


Also: I already addressed the Kenobi Padme conversation, did you even read the thread so far? Kenobi would have been LYING in order to get Padme to tell him where Anakin is.

Its interesting is all. I'm in no way trying to claim its factual.

MikeMikeTheMike
Did obi-wan take up lyin for his purposes before episode 4, is reallly the question here, then.

truejedi
The Jedi lied to suit their purposes, Sidious wasn't wrong in pointing that out.

Ms.Marvel
and... how is that not out of character? erm when has a jedi ever directly made a bold faced lie, for the sake of "suiting their purposes"? because hell if obi-wan really wanted to know where anakin went he could have just mind tricked her.

also, theres just as little evidence pointing to him lying as there is to anakin not killing younglings. youre making one hell of a double standard.

MikeMikeTheMike
But the shorty goes "master skywalker, there's too many of them, what are we going to do?"

KSZHZHZHHHHH *lightsaber turns on*

then "killed not by blaster, these padawans were, killed by lightsaber!" Obi-Wan "Who could have done this?"(obviously talking in horrific tones as if children had been killed)

later to padme: "There was a security footage of him killing younglings *breaks up*"

SithAce_1
Simple explanation:
He was KILLING JEDI reguardless of their age and /or future Jedi if that helps ease your minds a little on his ethics.

truejedi
Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
and... how is that not out of character? erm when has a jedi ever directly made a bold faced lie, for the sake of "suiting their purposes"? because hell if obi-wan really wanted to know where anakin went he could have just mind tricked her.


ermm........Darth Vader killed your father?



It was a hmmm... suppose... situation. Golly Gee Willickers. My knowledge of what Lucas intended is as crystal clear as yours, I can promise you that. And I am firmly aware that Lucas is indisputable canon. get your panties out of a bunch, and take a moment to consider what an interesting twist that would be.

I'm not assaulting canon, I find this thought interesting, and am trying to discuss it. Stop with the No U. Its actually kind of annoying. I'm not a moron when it comes to what was suggested in the movie.

MikeMikeTheMike
We're discussing, we're discussing... srsly...

I mean, by discus do u want us to just shut up and say you're right?

I admit tehre is plausiblty in teh premise.

Ms.Marvel
Originally posted by truejedi
ermm........Darth Vader killed your father?

haha, was waiting for you to bring that up.

he didnt lie there.





i established a logn time ago that i dont give a shit about canon, so, i have no idea what youre talking about.

that aside, youre basically saying that yes you know that your theory isnt really a theory so much as just... making stuff up for fun, which is cool i do that sometimes. you'd probably enjoy posting in here, though. at least there no one will misunderstand your intentions.

Ms.Marvel
Originally posted by MikeMikeTheMike
We're discussing, we're discussing... srsly...

I mean, by discus do u want us to just shut up and say you're right?

I admit tehre is plausiblty in teh premise.

indeed. not really sure what to say in reply to what amounts to basically conjecture >_>

Gideon
I know I'm in the minority here, but I love the fact that Yoda and Obi-Wan lied to Luke in the OT; it was one of Lucas's unintentionally brilliant moments. For one, it removed the idea that the Jedi are completely and utterly morally infallible (they're not nor should they be) and second, it drove the point home that two of history's greatest Jedi Knights were willing to compromise their personal morals in order to get Luke to do what he needed to. It illustrates how desperate their situation was.

Ms.Marvel
no one cares what you think!

MikeMikeTheMike
That's why im sure george didn't write them both. The originals is just made so well with so many different elements. while the prequils are soooooo farfetched and like a little kid wrote them.

truejedi
Darth Vader did not kill Anakin's father. That was a bold-faced lie.



I am just finishing In Shadows and Darkness and so I am right now interested in how fine a line the Jedi were walking in their treatment of Luke. I fell for Sidious's hundreds of pages of corruption of skywalker, even if they didn't. So the idea that Kenobi LIED to get what he wanted from Padme was really cool to me.

Ms.Marvel
okay tj.

MikeMikeTheMike
truejedi: Darth Vader did not kill Anakin's father. That was a bold-faced lie

lol obviously.... or wait, maybe he did, from the womb.

*twilight zone tehme*

SWFan4Life
Originally posted by truejedi
Darth Vader did not kill Anakin's father. That was a bold-faced lie.



I am just finishing In Shadows and Darkness and so I am right now interested in how fine a line the Jedi were walking in their treatment of Luke. I fell for Sidious's hundreds of pages of corruption of skywalker, even if they didn't. So the idea that Kenobi LIED to get what he wanted from Padme was really cool to me.

They lied so they could turn Luke into a weapon to throw against Vader and Palpy. How very un-Jedi like! However, desperate times called for desperate measures. Who better to pit against a half-man-cyborg and his old hitler boss than the cyborg's own son?

Gideon
Ms.Marvel
no one cares what you think!

You cared enough to respond. no expression

i beet u lyke alwayz

moar spoilerz

TJ, In Shadows and Darkness was awesome, wasn't it? Luke Skywalker at his most badass. big grin

MikeMikeTheMike
well he has a point though. If anakin is a huge threat to the galaxy by becoming the evil chosen 1 with all his midichlorins and stuff, there is no greater danger than this. Why not lie to find him? Its virtually the same.

truejedi
indeed, wet dream expected for me tonightzzz! Then I awake sobbing that it isn't real! i loved the dialogue between sidious and Luke though. So much better than what was on the death star.

Gideon
TJ
indeed, wet dream expected for me tonightzzz! Then I awake sobbing that it isn't real! i loved the dialogue between sidious and Luke though. So much better than what was on the death star.

Interestingly enough, we see touches of blank's Luke Skywalker in Dark Empire, Inferno, and Invincible. Skywalker was remarkably well written in the trilogy, but Palpatine was in the MVP. Absolutely chilling.

truejedi
In the trilogy? I still have to read the third one. I don't even want you to tell me, but I assume Sids is dead for good?

ah screw it, tell me yes or no on that.

Gideon
Yes, he's dead . But he continues to torment and manipulate Luke from beyond the grave through his legacy.

truejedi
That's the ultimate success isn't it? And the Mara/Luke Romance: Just plain hot. I now want to dump every woman in my life and pursue a red head with green eyes. But how do I seriously look a woman in the eye and tell her I'm breaking up with her because she doesn't look enough like the Mara Jade I have in my head?

MikeMikeTheMike
Lol whos mara jade?

Gideon
TJ
That's the ultimate success isn't it? And the Mara/Luke Romance: Just plain hot. I now want to dump every woman in my life and pursue a red head with green eyes. But how do I seriously look a woman in the eye and tell her I'm breaking up with her because she doesn't look enough like the Mara Jade I have in my head?

Oh man,

What did you think of that scene in In Shadows and Darkness where it looks like Mara Jade was finally about to shift her loyalty to Luke and lie to the Emperor only for Palpatine to sneak the truth out of her? That broke my heart.

truejedi
or when luke was holding her, and told her "don't ever cross me" followed by an accidental admission that he loved her? I thought that was so broken forever by Sidious getting the truth out of Mara. Hopefully in the third book I get some amazing insight into why Luke forgave her so easily. I mean, he laid the stakes out, right before she left. She had his life in her hands, completely, and she still let him down. That would be tough to come back from.

I also felt cheated out of a duel between Vader and Sidious.

Gideon
You'll get closure on Luke's "forgiveness" in the third one, and I don't feel cheated out of a duel between the two of them because I think Vader knew exactly how it was going to end. Might as well make it quick and painless, right?

As a student of history, I was appalled with Luke's threat to erase Palpatine from galactic history (but I'm also the kind of person who thinks people should pretty much get the death penalty for desecrating a historical landmark or monument), but looking back on it, I thought it was simply awesome. Luke finally realized the Emperor's vulnerability: his ego, his need for glorification and aggrandizement. Going after his legacy was the ultimate revenge.

MikeMikeTheMike
must not be cut out for EU very much cause I have no idea what u 2 r talking about.

Gideon
It's a piece of fanfiction, not canon EU.

MikeMikeTheMike
as such is it free & where can I read?

Ms.Marvel
google it, i did and found it lol

truejedi
Just start reading, and don't waste time learning what we are talking about. It will do nothing but confuse you for many many years if you don't have an actual grasp of what actually happened in the EU.

@Gideon
Yes, THAT moment when Sidious suddenly had a weakness too was CLASSIC. I kept being frustrated at Luke passing on his moments to end it though. I kept thinking he was going to be the skywalker we all know and HATE by throwing the fight. When he finally went for it: Amazing.

And that moment where sidious realized EVERYTHING he had assumed about Luke had been a lie (because of Luke not being capable of killing vader) was also pretty classic.


I simply CANNOT believe how long these things are though.

Gideon
Yes you can. It's the consensus around here that it's the finest piece of SW literature on ze planet (with the possible exception of Publius's works).

I found it and brought it to you all, like Prometheus! big grin

MikeMikeTheMike
I am sorry, sir! but, what exactly should I google, sir!

truejedi
Publius's work was an essay though, right? Like Homer. Nobody likes homer, so i didn't read the essay.

And yes, you should consider the sn change to Prometheus. Gideon of the biblical story was a bit less.. of a literary provider... more of a stone-cold steve austin type killer.

MikeMikeTheMike
Did Prometheus not provide fire, and was he not punished, sir?

Gideon
Gideon
Yes, THAT moment when Sidious suddenly had a weakness too was CLASSIC. I kept being frustrated at Luke passing on his moments to end it though. I kept thinking he was going to be the skywalker we all know and HATE by throwing the fight. When he finally went for it: Amazing.

And that moment where sidious realized EVERYTHING he had assumed about Luke had been a lie (because of Luke not being capable of killing vader) was also pretty classic.

Blank and I discussed a lot of this via email at great length. From what he told me, the purpose of the story is to explain that despite Luke's considerable Force potential and good intentions, it was ultimately Palpatine's training that enabled Luke to get to that point. The narrative makes many references to the Emperor's training transforming Luke into the ultimate warrior. Gone is the humble farmboy and in his place is the coldly confident saboteur. The training wasn't perfect, because the last piece of Luke's earlier life -- his stubbornness -- is still there.

It was Luke's obstinance that kept him from simply electrocuting the Emperor to death at a certain point during the duel. Because if Luke did, then he pretty much would have sealed his fate as Palpatine's puppet forever.

Edit: Publius has written several stories and fanfiction. All around, he's my favorite author.

MikeMikeTheMike
Never mind, went back a page and found it. "In shadows and darkness?"

Gideon
MikeMikeTheMike
Never mind, went back a page and found it. "In shadows and darkness?"

Start with "Into the Storm" and then "In Shadows and Darkness."

truejedi
^
Indeed. brilliant stuff. and by getting rid of Vader, Luke can now make his empire EXACTLY how he wants it to be, without the outside influence Vader would have caused. I kept think Sidious was going to threaten Hallin's life in that last duel, because it seemed like THAT might have been enough to stop Luke as well.

MikeMikeTheMike
"As per usual, I should point out that I own no part of star Wars, it's all owned and run by George. In fact, he's a bit like the Emperor but in a plaid shirt..." from the intro lol

Gideon
TJ
^
Indeed. brilliant stuff. and by getting rid of Vader, Luke can now make his empire EXACTLY how he wants it to be, without the outside influence Vader would have caused. I kept think Sidious was going to threaten Hallin's life in that last duel, because it seemed like THAT might have been enough to stop Luke as well.



It's been forever since I've read the trilogy, but I'm pretty sure Palpatine did threaten him. Perhaps not directly and perhaps not in the heat of the duel, but Luke was warned that Palpatine would essentially torch the entire galaxy to make a point. What's really frightening about that is that Luke didn't doubt him for a second, which is almost as scary as when Palpatine was about to kill Mara in the first one, even though he raised her.

Lord Lucien
Wow, I'm out of it for a little while and suddenly everyone starts tempting me with spoilers about the story! Stop it!

Anyways:

Originally posted by truejedi
First, where is the confirmed kill of a Youngling by Anakin? Back that up? "Not even the Younglings survived." "Killed not by clones, this... Padawan. By a lightsaber he was." The second sentence immediately followed the first while the two were leaning over, as Obi-Wan points out, a group of dead Younglings (i.e. children).

truejedi
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Wow, I'm out of it for a little while and suddenly everyone starts tempting me with spoilers about the story! Stop it!

Anyways:

"Not even the Younglings survived." "Killed not by clones, this... Padawan. By a lightsaber he was." The second sentence immediately followed the first while the two were leaning over, as Obi-Wan points out, a group of dead Younglings (i.e. children).

right: a confirmed Anakin kill of a padawan. Not a youngling. Sorry, i thought maybe you had found something, i was searching the novelization and the movie for irrevocable proof that anakin killed a little kid. sad

truejedi
Originally posted by Gideon
It's been forever since I've read the trilogy, but I'm pretty sure Palpatine did threaten him. Perhaps not directly and perhaps not in the heat of the duel, but Luke was warned that Palpatine would essentially torch the entire galaxy to make a point. What's really frightening about that is that Luke didn't doubt him for a second, which is almost as scary as when Palpatine was about to kill Mara in the first one, even though he raised her.

yeah, THAT was intense. I mean, we knew Luke wouldn't let it go that far, but still.

Did it surprise you that Luke didn't even bother to tell Mon MOthma the truth? That he wasn't a spy? I had thought that was pretty much exactly why he wanted to talk to her.

Gideon
I think Luke was so pissed at that point that they'd think he betrayed them that he didn't care.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by truejedi
right: a confirmed Anakin kill of a padawan. Not a youngling. Sorry, i thought maybe you had found something, i was searching the novelization and the movie for irrevocable proof that anakin killed a little kid. sad Don't be glib, it doesn't suit you.

truejedi
naw, i meant it. as i said to marvel, i was just running the thought of the Jedi lying to Padme over in my mind, and wondered how that idea struck anyone else? not a big deal.

truejedi
Originally posted by Gideon
I think Luke was so pissed at that point that they'd think he betrayed them that he didn't care.

that's true.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by truejedi
naw, i meant it. as i said to marvel, i was just running the thought of the Jedi lying to Padme over in my mind, and wondered how that idea struck anyone else? not a big deal. That's fine. Totally uncharacteristic of Kenobi to do at such a time, but fine (I'd do it). But you know, the correlation between dead children being called Younglings and then referring to said dead children as having been killed by, a... lightsaber? Was it? Only... Vader was attacking Jedi with a lightsaber... not, clones?

Maybe I'm confused, but I'm pretty sure no clone was fighting with a lightsaber.

truejedi
No, he said the younglings died, and then said the Padawan was killed with a lightsaber. Younglings =/= Padawans.

Autokrat
I'd like to know how Blank has the endurance to pump out so many words. When it comes to Fanfiction, I work at a crawl.

MikeMikeTheMike
Palpatine nodded slightly, never taking his eyes from the man, "Lord Vader has told me that you are an exemplary medic."

"He is very kind, Excellency." Hallin said, at a loss for other words.

The Emperor smiled at that, "No, he is not. He is however, trustworthy." At this, Palpatine leaned forward just slightly, pressing his message home, "It is that which I value more than anything else."

^^^The lines are so masterfully crafted^^^

Gideon
^ My favorite one from that scene is "Do so as if your life depended on it."

MikeMikeTheMike
Aye that was great as well. NO question that palpatine's not exaggerating the situation at all.

Gideon
I got the reaction from blank's Palpatine that George Lucas got from his own Palpatine. It's just funny and awesome to see someone that evil and miserable at work.

MikeMikeTheMike
Still, the gauging of mr. luke's power and appreciation of learning to control it:

I mean, i understand that this isn't george lucas's work so is not applicable here, but why didn't sidious seek to control galen marek rather than have vader kill him, especially when marek was so powerful? It's almost the same thing.

Gideon
Well, Palpatine did. Remember: the whole thing with Vader killing Marek was a ploy until Marek became a liability.

MikeMikeTheMike
I had thought that vader was bsing about sidious needing him to gather the enemies of the empire... I only played the game once though.

Yeah I was pretty sure what went on was vader saved galen then told him to find the enemies then kidnapped them under the emperor's command so galen would get pissed and come back to destroy the emperor for vader...

Gideon
Mike
I had thought that vader was bsing about sidious needing him to gather the enemies of the empire... I only played the game once though.

No, it was pretty accurate. The whole thing was an elaborate setup until Marek continued to display rebellious sympathies. And even then, remember, Palpatine tried to convince Marek to kill Vader and join him.

MikeMikeTheMike
Oh, i do remember that, it was just my impression that palpatine was covering his ass when he realized that vader had betrayed him.

But, of course, I pay about as much attention to that sort of game's storyline as I do to the storyline of "god of war"

"oop... there's a minotaur. bam it's dead, look at all the blood." I should read the comic. I have a long way to go before I am EU certifiable.

Red Nemesis
Originally posted by Gideon
Yes you can. It's the consensus around here that it's the finest piece of SW literature on ze planet (with the possible exception of Publius's works).

I found it and brought it to you all, like Prometheus! big grin

This is not true. You found Publius, whose work I found to be pretentious. Someone else found Blank101. I think it was something like EliteHunter or Elite. He posted more back when Enyalus posted, then came back a couple of times. Haven't seen him lately, though.

Gideon
Wrong, I found Blank101 and told Elite Hunter (among others) about it. Don't be jealous that I'm better than you.

Eminence
I am Zorro!

No, I am Zorro!

I. AM. ZORRO!

Gideon
RN
This is not true. You found Publius, whose work I found to be pretentious. Someone else found Blank101. I think it was something like EliteHunter or Elite. He posted more back when Enyalus posted, then came back a couple of times. Haven't seen him lately, though.

You were wrong.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by truejedi
No, he said the younglings died, and then said the Padawan was killed with a lightsaber. Younglings =/= Padawans. "Younglings. Younglings! A visitor we have."

"Master. Because someone erased it from the archive memories."


"The Padawan is right."

Gideon
^ lucien ur sexy i luv u

SithAce_1
Originally posted by SithAce_1
Simple explanation:
He was KILLING JEDI reguardless of their age and /or future Jedi if that helps ease your minds a little on his ethics.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Gideon
^ lucien ur sexy i luv u That's because I smell like a man and not a lady.

Red Nemesis
Gideon this is why people hate you.

I miss Enyalus.

Gideon
RN
Gideon this is why people hate you.

I am beloved by the masses, thankyouverymuch!



Who? Why?

Eminence
He has cool theories.

If he and MC return to activity I will be a happy camper.

Red Nemesis
MC is learning to be a film snob and SW is a liability in the cutthroat world of criticism

Nephthys
He's (Enyalus) just over in the Comics forum, just give him a shout.

truejedi
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
"Younglings. Younglings! A visitor we have."

"Master. Because someone erased it from the archive memories."


"The Padawan is right."

Oooh, that's good. Aren't we explained to elsewhere that the rank of Padawan is only reached when a master selects one to train? Big deal made of it in Dark Rendevous, I believe. Is that non-canon based on Yoda's words being from ROTS?

MikeMikeTheMike
Or yoda is an old guy who sometimes calls PSPS, Iphones and DS's Gameboys like my grandpa.

just cause yoda calls him a padawan doesn't make him one, etc.

The term could be interchangeable in yoda's vocabulary, especially with that broken lanuage he speaks. Which also explains when they were over teh padawan's body...

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by truejedi
Oooh, that's good. Aren't we explained to elsewhere that the rank of Padawan is only reached when a master selects one to train? Big deal made of it in Dark Rendevous, I believe. Is that non-canon based on Yoda's words being from ROTS? What Mike said in his last line. The term could be interchangeable for Yoda. Especially as he's every Jedi's initial instructor, they're all like Padawans. That would explain why Yoda refers to Liam and the dead child as Padawans.

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by MikeMikeTheMike
Or yoda is an old guy who sometimes calls PSPS, Iphones and DS's Gameboys like my grandpa.

just cause yoda calls him a padawan doesn't make him one, etc.

The term could be interchangeable in yoda's vocabulary, especially with that broken lanuage he speaks. Which also explains when they were over teh padawan's body...

Why the ban?

whybanmike
I have no idea why they banned me. You know all, you tell me?

Nephthys
Apparantly you're a sock.

whybanmike
lol I don't know what that is? prevents you from saturating your shoes in sweat?

Nephthys
It means you're a person who was banned but signed up as a different account. Like a spare sock, you see.

Kinda like exactly what you're doing now. no expression

Red Nemesis
Reported.

whybanmike
ok well then ya, right now I'm a sock. but that old guy wasn't.

Sith Master X
Admins can identify socks if you create an account with the same IP address as another account.

I don't think he should have been banned. Accounts get hacked, and I think he's got a legitimate case. He wasn't doing anything wrong.

Anakin4Ever
Anakin is pretty bipolar. Going from a slave to a Jedi was a huge step for him, so going from a Jedi to Sith may not have seemed so implausible. I do agree it's kind of weird how quickly he turned.
He did it for his wife and baby, though.

SWFan4Life
Originally posted by Anakin4Ever
Anakin is pretty bipolar. Going from a slave to a Jedi was a huge step for him, so going from a Jedi to Sith may not have seemed so implausible. I do agree it's kind of weird how quickly he turned.
He did it for his wife and baby, though.

Same reason Jacen Solo became Caedus, though at one point he was duped into believing he had to kill them to become a true Sith.

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