Marvel's Most Powerful Demon? Zom vs Shuma Gorath vs Chthon vs Set

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zopzop
Seriously, unless I'm missing something, these guys seem to be the creme de la creme of satanic powers in Marvel. Question is, who's the top dog?

As much as I want to say Shuma (we've all seen the Dr. Strange scans), I'm gonna have to side with Zom.

Zom was imprisoned by a cabal of powers and principalities that included Dormammu and Eternity (back when Eternity wasn't the joke he is now). His release prompted the Living Tribunal himself to spring into action.

We all know Chthon is the Lord of the Darkhold (a cornerstone of creation), a book of black magic that rivals the Book of the Vishanti in power. Eternity hinted that left unchecked in this universe, he'd pose a deadly and real threat to him.

Set, is a beast now. In the Marvel Arcana and Marvel Tarot arcs/one shots, it seems like he's the most powerful of the Elders (Chthon, Gaea, Oshtur, Set). The Father of the Seven Deadly Sins, the Crown of Power (one of the cornerstones of Creation) and 7 extremely power elder evils.

PS Anyone ever check the Arcana/Tarot stuff out?

Sr J-Bieb
The demon in Thanos' pants.

rotiart
Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
The demon in Thanos' pants.

That things is only dangerous when he walks into a cemetary... Freaking necrophiliac

Cubey
What the ****... sick

Also, I'm not sure.. I'll just toss a coin and say Zom.

Colossus-Big C
Originally posted by zopzop
Seriously, unless I'm missing something, these guys seem to be the creme de la creme of satanic powers in Marvel. Question is, who's the top dog?

As much as I want to say Shuma (we've all seen the Dr. Strange scans), I'm gonna have to side with Zom.

Zom was imprisoned by a cabal of powers and principalities that included Dormammu and Eternity (back when Eternity wasn't the joke he is now). His release prompted the Living Tribunal himself to spring into action.

We all know Chthon is the Lord of the Darkhold (a cornerstone of creation), a book of black magic that rivals the Book of the Vishanti in power. Eternity hinted that left unchecked in this universe, he'd pose a deadly and real threat to him.

Set, is a beast now. In the Marvel Arcana and Marvel Tarot arcs/one shots, it seems like he's the most powerful of the Elders (Chthon, Gaea, Oshtur, Set). The Father of the Seven Deadly Sins, the Crown of Power (one of the cornerstones of Creation) and 7 extremely power elder evils.

PS Anyone ever check the Arcana/Tarot stuff out?

Zom
Shuma
Chthon
Set

Chthon is the most powerful of the elder gods

here Gaea Oshtur & Set combind there power to banish chthon
just wanted to point out that gaea has banished dormammu on her own

King Kandy
I'd just like to clarify it wasn't Zom himself that called the living tribunal forth, but rather his forelock being removed, which caused a mystical imbalance. That said, I do think Zom is the strongest.

zopzop
@ Colossus-Big C

Look closer at the picture. That as an ACTUAL manifestation of Chthon and it was Nagala, Ian, and that other chick using the artifacts to banish him. It wasn't Oshtur, Gaea, and Set vs Chthon.

@ King Kandy

No the forelock was actually a sort of cloaking device powerful enough to mask his presence from a being as powerful as the Living Tribunal! Once the forelock was removed, the Tribunal became aware of him and that was that. Zom's mere existence in this realm is what caused the mystical imbalance.

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/zom.htm

Colossus-Big C
Originally posted by zopzop
@ Colossus-Big C

Look closer at the picture. That as an ACTUAL manifestation of Chthon and it was Nagala, Ian, and that other chick using the artifacts to banish him. It wasn't Oshtur, Gaea, and Set vs Chthon.
they were using the courner stones of creation which has powered from gaea oshtur and set they were calling on them for power through the artifacts

WhiteWitchKing
Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
they were using the courner stones of creation which has powered from gaea oshtur and set they were calling on them for power through the artifacts

They're nothing but totems of these beings similar to the Ruby of Cyttorak, Wand of Watomb, and Eye of Aggamotto. Zopzop is right; Chthon faced fractions of these Elder God's powers, not the true beings themselves.

Zom's showing is less impressive then Shuma Gorath. SG killed Ancient One permanently unlike Zom. Strange struggled against SG's generals. Other than a few statements; Zom couldn't put Strange down,who had no prep at all.

guy222
zom

TheTyrant
Gorath.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by TheTyrant
Gorath.

Colossus-Big C
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
They're nothing but totems of these beings similar to the Ruby of Cyttorak, Wand of Watomb, and Eye of Aggamotto. Zopzop is right; Chthon faced fractions of these Elder God's powers, not the true beings themselves.

Zom's showing is less impressive then Shuma Gorath. SG killed Ancient One permanently unlike Zom. Strange struggled against SG's generals. Other than a few statements; Zom couldn't put Strange down,who had no prep at all. who is the most powerful elder god?
also if it was just fractions of there power, how is it that galactus can be forcefully brought into agamottos realm just by using the eye of agamotto

King Kandy
Originally posted by zopzop
@ King Kandy

No the forelock was actually a sort of cloaking device powerful enough to mask his presence from a being as powerful as the Living Tribunal! Once the forelock was removed, the Tribunal became aware of him and that was that. Zom's mere existence in this realm is what caused the mystical imbalance.
No, that's simply wrong. Read the comics themselves.

LT: "Then, in severing Zom's forelock, you committed the second--the unpardonable sin! For, in so doing, you set free the forces of mystic anarchy--which now threaten to engulf us all!"

Strange Tales #158

iceman24567
Shuma

Endless Mike
Classic Zom. Dr. Strange referred to him as the most powerful foe he ever fought.

Bentley
This is between Gorath and Chthon, I'd rate Chthon higher considering the battles against Strange.

TheTyrant
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Classic Zom. Dr. Strange referred to him as the most powerful foe he ever fought.

When he hadn't even faced Shuma.

Colossus-Big C
Originally posted by Bentley
This is between Gorath and Chthon, I'd rate Chthon higher considering the battles against Strange. yea if your basing the battles strange had with each than yea i would rate chthon higher

strange battled shuma and defeated him in his realm, where strange nearly died just by simply being in chthons realm even after he puts up forcefields, he then focuses a pure noble soul blast at chthon which made chthon smack him out of his realm

AsbestosFlaygon
Zom.

The Living Tribunal himself had to interfere to stop his rampage.

zopzop
Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
yea if your basing the battles strange had with each than yea i would rate chthon higher

strange battled shuma and defeated him in his realm, where strange nearly died just by simply being in chthons realm even after he puts up forcefields, he then focuses a pure noble soul blast at chthon which made chthon smack him out of his realm


Pure noble soul blast would fail epically vs Set. Thor/Thing/Strange/Quasar attempted to fight Set in his realm and Thor fled for his life. First he attempted to go to Gaea for help, but Set was so powerful he had imprisoned her and was holding her captive against her will (she was so owned that she couldn't even call out for help). Then Thor fled to Atum and succeeded in tricking him into fighting Set. Atum won but Set didn't die, he was roughed up badly though.

Set fought Atum to a one million year standstill until Atum gained the upper hand.

Chthon has never dared fight Atum (directly or indirectly). The only reason he showed his face during that Dark Reign Avengers arc is because Atum recently died.

@King Kandy

I could have sworn that forelock was keeping Zom hidden from even the Living Tribunal's powers. I'll have to find the issue. And yes you were right about the forelock's removal unleashing evil.

And again the reason why my vote goes to Zom, Gorath didn't even register on the Tribunal's "oh crap, trouble" scale, while Zom did.

IMHO it's :
Zom
Gorath
Set
Chthon

KuRuPT Thanosi
based on narration/hyperbole... zom, based on fights n feats... Shuma or Set

The Nuul
Zom/Strange couldnt even beat WWH.

whistle

KuRuPT Thanosi
Originally posted by The Nuul
Zom/Strange couldnt even beat WWH.

whistle

zom strange isn't the same as zom my friend. Plus, he was waxing WWH, until he put his powers in check.

zopzop
Originally posted by The Nuul
Zom/Strange couldnt even beat WWH.

whistle


Zomling (a sliver of Zom's true power). And he was OWNING WWH until he started fighting Zom's influence. And this is after he got through owning the Warbound that were invading his sanctum.

Colossus-Big C
Shuma is responsible for the Cancerverse

the cancerverse is described as a universe that was devouwerd by chthulu and the great old ones live there

King Kandy
Originally posted by zopzop
And again the reason why my vote goes to Zom, Gorath didn't even register on the Tribunal's "oh crap, trouble" scale, while Zom did.
Zom didn't register to LT either (hence why it was Eternity who put him down originally). LT destroyed him as part one of cleaning up the mystic anarchy (part two was going to be destroying the planet). If the forelock wasn't severed, LT wouldn't have cared because the evil was going to be in one being who could only harm so much.

zopzop
Originally posted by King Kandy
Zom didn't register to LT either (hence why it was Eternity who put him down originally).


It wasn't just Eternity. We know of at least one more person who was involved with Zom's downfall : Dormammu. I need to find that issue again.




And yet the Tribunal didn't care about Shuma at all and he supposedly conquered 1000s of dimensions. Something about Zom caused the Tribunal to interfere personally whereas Shuma was allowed to do whatever.

Omega Vision
Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
Shuma is responsible for the Cancerverse

the cancerverse is described as a universe that was devouwerd by chthulu and the great old ones live there
Umm...citation?

Q99
Thanos Imperative #3 says "cthonic gods" are responsible for the Cancerverse, getting an in when Captain Mar-vell was dying.

Colossus-Big C
LT only deals with unbalances he doesnt care about neither right or wrong

shuma wasnt causing an unbalance, the vishantis magic balanced shumas

also the LT is a magical diety
the vishanti are the most poweful magic being under him (scans posted by mr master)

Omega Vision
Originally posted by Q99
Thanos Imperative #3 says "cthonic gods" are responsible for the Cancerverse, getting an in when Captain Mar-vell was dying.
Right, but that has nothing to do with the works of HP Lovecraft which is what Colossus seems to suggest.

King Kandy
Originally posted by zopzop
It wasn't just Eternity. We know of at least one more person who was involved with Zom's downfall : Dormammu. I need to find that issue again.
And yet, this does not affect the point I was making. At all. My point is, Zom alone (without the forelock removal) never made LT intervene, during either of his rampages.

Originally posted by zopzop
And yet the Tribunal didn't care about Shuma at all and he supposedly conquered 1000s of dimensions. Something about Zom caused the Tribunal to interfere personally whereas Shuma was allowed to do whatever.
Zom caused a mystical imbalance, while Shuma did not.

Colossus-Big C
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Right, but that has nothing to do with the works of HP Lovecraft which is what Colossus seems to suggest. just think about it. the cancerverse was a universe that was concured by cthulu and the Great old ones live there as described in the imperative
shuma eats/conquore universes
shuma is also marvels attemp as cthulu
and shuma goraths pals are also called Great old ones not to mention a bunch of those cancerverse beings look like shuma

Colossus-Big C
also you forgot about cyttorak

zopzop
Originally posted by King Kandy
And yet, this does not affect the point I was making. At all. My point is, Zom alone (without the forelock removal) never made LT intervene, during either of his rampages.

You're right. I just found the issue.





Again you were right. This is what happens when I rely on wiki and my memory. Oh well.

I still say it goes : Zom > Shuma >>>>>>>>>>>>>Set > Chthon.

King Kandy
I agree with that analysis since Eternity alone apparently couldn't beat Zom, and Strange made it pretty clear Eternity>Shuma.

Colossus-Big C
could of been differnt eternity, remember theres a higher manifestation of etenity

King Kandy
Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
could of been differnt eternity, remember theres a higher manifestation of etenity
lol. It was the same Eternity Strange had met before.

Omega Vision
Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
just think about it. the cancerverse was a universe that was concured by cthulu and the Great old ones live there as described in the imperative
shuma eats/conquore universes
shuma is also marvels attemp as cthulu
and shuma goraths pals are also called Great old ones not to mention a bunch of those cancerverse beings look like shuma
Cthulhu isn't a Marvel character. Period. Shuma-Gorath is a pastiche of the Eldritch Abomination archetype made popular by HP Lovecraft but if you really compare Cthulhu with Shuma-Gorath they have one real shared trait: tentacles.

753
Shuma gorath is probably not one of many angled ones

Endless Mike
Originally posted by TheTyrant
When he hadn't even faced Shuma.

He said it after he faced Shuma

zopzop
Originally posted by Endless Mike
He said it after he faced Shuma

If true, this is awesome smile

Marvel REALLY needs to use this guy (Zom) more. Having a demon powerful enough to wreck damage on an Universe wide scale makes for an interesting story arc.

King Kandy
It makes for stupid story arcs, because someone that strong can only be beaten through plot devices.

zopzop
Originally posted by King Kandy
It makes for stupid story arcs, because someone that strong can only be beaten through plot devices.

Not really. I mean if they write it like the Infinity Gauntlet/War/Crusade crapola where Earth heroes/villains are making fools of Cosmic Gods. Yes, you are right.

But if they make it a "War of the 7 Heavens" type deal, with Gods battling it out. Then it's pure win.

Endless Mike
Zom (the true Zom) has been dead ever since the LT killed him. All appearances later were just small fragments of his essence.

Colossus-Big C
based on the ohotmu

Chthon...Strength 7, Durability 7, Energy Projection 7.

Set........Strength 7, Durability 5, Energy Projection 7.

Zom......Strength 7, Durability 7, Energy Projection 7.

Shuma...Strength 7, Durability 7, Energy Projection 7.
http://marvel.com/universe/OHOTMU:Power_Grids


they are all equal in everything except set has some poor durability....

zopzop
Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
based on the ohotmu

Chthon...Strength 7, Durability 7, Energy Projection 7.

Set........Strength 7, Durability 5, Energy Projection 7.

Zom......Strength 7, Durability 7, Energy Projection 7.

Shuma...Strength 7, Durability 7, Energy Projection 7.
http://marvel.com/universe/OHOTMU:Power_Grids


they are all equal in everything except set has some poor durability....

Going by those power grid ratings Hulk is more powerful than any of them roll eyes (sarcastic)

Uriel005
Shuma overall. He's significantly weaker in 616 universe. You wanna tell me any of these guys with peak powers are gonna match shuma peak. Shuma with home dimension power stomps with a tentacle of raep. However in a battlefield on 616 I gotta go with Chthon

zopzop
@ Uriel005

I never understood why Chthon is so highly feared. He's never dared go mano y mano with Atum. But Set has. And he's survived. He's stalemated Atum for MILLIONS of years before. He's fought him while "holding down" Gaea.

What has Chthon done?

But Shuma is very powerful, more powerful than Zom? I'm not too sure. Eternity + Dormammu + others barely imprisoned him. The Living Tribunal himself couldn't really put him down. He survives as a sliver of his former self.

Uriel005
Shuma has taken multiple realities with their own protectors.

Also I'm assuming that when we're using beings on this level we're going to use high end feats as the judge because at standard levels they kinda cap out at around the same level. So anyways if Zom were to fight Chthon in his personal dimension he loses and loses bad even with Zom fighting peak. However if Shuma were to maintain peak levels of his home dimension he'd still stomp Chthon. Also Zom is not too smart and Chthon and Set probably smart enough win through less direct means.

Also Chthon has a spell designed to stop atum but it can only be cast by a non magical. He's not a straight up fighter. It's not in his nature but when you deal with gods I include the powers they can bestow on mortals. it's like because Juggy is absurd you must assume that cytorrak is more invulnerable and baddass than him.

zopzop
The thing about that is :

Strange has fought and defeated Shuma. He's never defeated Zom or Set.

He and the Ancient One were powerless before Umar and they were forced to release Zom. Strange and Ancient one were powerless against him and were forced to bring the Tribunal himself into it.

Strange has repulsed Chthon with a bolt of light or whatever, when he was in Chthon's dimension. No such attack would work vs Set. Thor and Strange tried to bring the fight to Set and Thor was forced to flee and seek help. Strange and crew were minutes away from sure death before Thor came back with reinforcements.

Colossus-Big C
Originally posted by zopzop
@ Uriel005

I never understood why Chthon is so highly feared. He's never dared go mano y mano with Atum. But Set has. And he's survived. He's stalemated Atum for MILLIONS of years before. He's fought him while "holding down" Gaea.

What has Chthon done?

But Shuma is very powerful, more powerful than Zom? I'm not too sure. Eternity + Dormammu + others barely imprisoned him. The Living Tribunal himself couldn't really put him down. He survives as a sliver of his former self. chthons power is mostly implied, after the demogorge incident he cant fully manifest on earth because they said no interdimensional rift is large enough to transfer all of his energy so he relies on possesing people with tiny fractions of power even with gaea and strange having spells blocking most of that power from earth and still he can warp the earth from his dimension and destroy asgard

eternity also said is chthon was a threat to him

heres a page from iron man annual
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/5/51954/1252375-drstrangesorcerersupre90_03.jpg

SamZED
Pardon me for going a bit off-topic, how powerful is DC's Trigon compared to these guys? Is he close to any of them?

Colossus-Big C
Originally posted by SamZED
Pardon me for going a bit off-topic, how powerful is DC's Trigon compared to these guys? Is he close to any of them? people have said superman can beat trigon

Colossus-Big C
Originally posted by zopzop
Going by those power grid ratings Hulk is more powerful than any of them roll eyes (sarcastic) how so? 7 is the highest

zopzop
Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
chthons power is mostly implied, after the demogorge incident he cant fully manifest on earth because they said no interdimensional rift is large enough to transfer all of his energy so he relies on possesing people with tiny fractions of power even with gaea and strange having spells blocking most of that power from earth and still he can warp the earth from his dimension and destroy asgard

I see but implied means nothing really. He was owned by Hank Pym. That was the height of stupidity but it happened.

During the Atlantis Attacks storyline, it was OVER for Earth until Thor suckered Demogorge and saved the day. But Set STILL didn't die, he was dispersed but not dead. In the Marvel Tarot they made it clear, he was hurt BAD but still alive.

He's survived two encounters with the godeater, Chthon doesn't even make an attempt.

@SamZED

I always saw Trigon as DC's Mephisto. And I don't think Mephisto can hold a candle to these guys.

Bentley
Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
people have said superman can beat trigon

Superman can spank the Presence so that barely counts.

Shuma is a tough beast. I recall a Fantastic Four arcs where Diablo and Doctor Strange teamed up to face Shuma and the sorcerer who summoned it and Diablo said "We drew straws and I was set against the magician".

Yeah Diablo, you were going to hang with Shuma Gorath solo.

ermmdance

zopzop
Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
how so? 7 is the highest

My bad I meant equally as powerful as them. How does Set have a lower durability than Hulk? It makes no sense.

And even the "7" rating is relative. How you rate Hulk's strength vs Zom? They both 7 no? But I'm betting Zom's strength is CONSIDERABLY greater than Hulk's.

Colossus-Big C
Originally posted by zopzop
I see but implied means nothing really. He was owned by Hank Pym. That was the height of stupidity but it happened.
there was context behind that
1. that was quicksilver being possesed by chthon, chthon is trapped in his dimension
2. it greated limited chthons power because humans have to say spells for magic, so hank pym made a machine that damaged quicksilvers vocal cords so he couldnt speak thus chthon being powerless

100% plot device

zopzop
Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
there was context behind that
1. that was quicksilver being possesed by chthon
2. it greated limited chthons power because humans have to say spells for magic, so hank pym made a machine that damaged quicksilvers vocal cords so he couldnt speak thus chthon being powerless

100% plot device

eternity later thanks hank pym for saving the potential universe threat

Actually it still is a low showing. Why wouldn't Chthon, a mage, think of protecting himself from effects that would stop him from casting spells. Especially if it was something as simple as stopping/preventing/tampering his speech?

It's sad.


EDIT :

Wait I seem to remember Chthon being in a panic that they were gonna destroy his "source of power" or whatever Wundegore Mountain. If that's so, then Thor or some other world breaker type can pwn him by simply destroying Wundegore Mt.

Colossus-Big C
Originally posted by zopzop
Actually it still is a low showing. Why wouldn't Chthon, a mage, think of protecting himself from effects that would stop him from casting spells. Especially if it was something as simple as stopping/preventing/tampering his speech?

It's sad.
because it was quicksilvers body
and most of chthons power is blocked from earth by gaea, agamotto, the vishanti and dr strange.

Colossus-Big C
Originally posted by zopzop

Wait I seem to remember Chthon being in a panic that they were gonna destroy his "source of power" or whatever Wundegore Mountain. If that's so, then Thor or some other world breaker type can pwn him by simply destroying Wundegore Mt. i hope you dont think chthon is powerd by a mountain.

thats just a little nexus of his power to earth from the dimension he is trapped in.
you seem to be ignoring the fact that chthon is trapped in his dimensions and those are only little avatars of him

did you read the comic? they writer clearly stated that he was just possesing quicksilver from his dimension

zopzop
Yeah but LOTS of demons and other evil mystics are trapped in their dimensions and only send fractions of their power into 616.

That excuse doesn't save Chthon. He just seemed strangely..........dependent on that mountain. And that doesn't fill me with confidence.

Colossus-Big C
Originally posted by zopzop
Yeah but LOTS of demons and other evil mystics are trapped in their dimensions and only send fractions of their power into 616.


name them,

even zom while possesing dr strange was pwned by hulk
heck, shuma gorath was defeated by doctor strange in his own realm

Colossus-Big C
Originally posted by zopzop
My bad I meant equally as powerful as them. How does Set have a lower durability than Hulk? It makes no sense.

And even the "7" rating is relative. How you rate Hulk's strength vs Zom? They both 7 no? But I'm betting Zom's strength is CONSIDERABLY greater than Hulk's. hulk has beat up zom

zopzop
Originally posted by Colossus-Big C


Dormammu, Shuma Gorath, Set, other's that don't come to mind now. Even Mephisto is bound by what he can do in 616 and he's freer than the rest.



Strange had a sliver of Zom's power. That Zomling wasn't the full Zom by an stretch. There hasn't been a full Zom since LT blasted him into nothingness and he STILL reformed! Strange got through owning the Warbound that were invading his Sanctum then he was pummeling the Hulk like a ragdoll. It's only after Strange started fighting Zom's power that all was lost. It was shown on panel too. And I believe even one of the writers during an interview said that Strange was nowhere near channeling Zom's full power.

And getting owned in your OWN dimension isn't a good thing Colossus smile Usually these demon types are "Omnipotent" in their own realms.

Colossus-Big C
Originally posted by zopzop




Strange had a sliver of Zom's power. That Zomling wasn't the full Zom by an stretch. same exact thing with quicksilver and chthon

Originally posted by zopzop
And getting owned in your OWN dimension isn't a good thing Colossus smile Usually these demon types are "Omnipotent" in their own realms. im just saying, shuma gorath got owned by dr strange in his own realm.
that right there is what you call sad

thanos-prime
Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
hulk has beat up zom Actually hulk got delt with pretty easily if i recall correctly hulk only won due to strange's soft spot for the hulk.

Q99
Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
people have said superman can beat trigon

Maybe recent ultra-weakened Trigon, not peak-Trigon.

Trigon's quite powerful, but not as much as this lot.

the Darkone
Atum is the most powerful Elder God than Set and then Chthon.

I would say it's a tie between Zom and Shuma Gorath they are both bada$$. Set would get slaughter he fought either Zom or Shuma Gorath point blank.

the Darkone
They might the same ratings that doesn't mean they are equal, Odin has seven across the board but does that mean he can challenge LT or Beyonder or a Celestial who has the same ratings. People use common sense not all 7 means the same power levels wink.

Uriel005
Originally posted by the Darkone
Atum is the most powerful Elder God than Set and then Chthon.

I would say it's a tie between Zom and Shuma Gorath they are both bada$$. Set would get slaughter he fought either Zom or Shuma Gorath point blank.

Actually you can't say Atum is strongest. Chthon never fights him directly because he was born to destroy elder gods hence the title godeater but he has a spell designed to be cast by nonmagicals that stop demagorge. So if he can do that with a mortal do you really think stopping him is beyond his power. If anyone keeps up on the W40k universe outside of marvel comics I consider Chthon like Tzeentch, he manipulates events to his liking and doesn't always directly involve himself however he's no pushover in a fight and as Tzeentch's champions he is likely a better fighter than the more berserker like Zom. Also Zom is strong but is a bit of a bruiser with a natural intuition with magic. He relies on raw power but someone with a good amount of power and a lot of smarts can probably overcome him if they know he's coming.

As for Shuma he is a conqueror of multiple dimensions do you really think there is very much he hasn't encountered and defeated.

bbrem123
cant dormammu be up there with these guys?

doesnt it all depend on how many worshipers he has or something?

the Darkone
Originally posted by Uriel005
Actually you can't say Atum is strongest. Chthon never fights him directly because he was born to destroy elder gods hence the title godeater but he has a spell designed to be cast by nonmagicals that stop demagorge. So if he can do that with a mortal do you really think stopping him is beyond his power. If anyone keeps up on the W40k universe outside of marvel comics I consider Chthon like Tzeentch, he manipulates events to his liking and doesn't always directly involve himself however he's no pushover in a fight and as Tzeentch's champions he is likely a better fighter than the more berserker like Zom. Also Zom is strong but is a bit of a bruiser with a natural intuition with magic. He relies on raw power but someone with a good amount of power and a lot of smarts can probably overcome him if they know he's coming.

As for Shuma he is a conqueror of multiple dimensions do you really think there is very much he hasn't encountered and defeated.

Chthon was afraid of Atum and still is,point blank. Chthon has spell to beat Atum we have yet too see it, in all tense and purposes he could be full shit.

the Darkone
Originally posted by bbrem123
cant dormammu be up there with these guys?

doesnt it all depend on how many worshipers he has or something?

Dormammus is Odin level at best.

Colossus-Big C
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/5/51954/1595741-chthon.png

Uriel005
Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
same exact thing with quicksilver and chthon

im just saying, shuma gorath got owned by dr strange in his own realm.
that right there is what you call sad to be fair the way strange did it would beat anyone. Channeling someones own energy against them would in effect make him his opponents strength + his own not inconsiderable magical power as a being of magic himself. However even in beating him he nearly lost as the energy he channeled was corrupting him and also he had an amp from doing the same thing to one of Shuma's generals IIRC.

bbrem123
Originally posted by the Darkone
Dormammus is Odin level at best.

erm ...eeehh...at best hell no

Rage.Of.Olympus
I think he did well against Eternity at one point. Course, so did the Ancient One IIRC.

Dude's a joke for the embodiment of the Universe to be honest.

Uriel005
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I think he did well against Eternity at one point. Course, so did the Ancient One IIRC.

Dude's a joke for the embodiment of the Universe to be honest. yeah he makes me question whether or not abstract is below skyfather. Hell several reality warpers make him their *****.

CortSether
Anyway, LOL at everyone saying Eternity couldn't put down Zom. It's never ever said that they even battled. We also know that Zom was put in Chains of Living Bondage by Dormammu even before Eternity intervened. Why did he not just destroy Zom instead of sealing him in a vase? Perhaps just for lulz, but it certainly wasn't about Zom being "too powerful". We all know LT is loads more powerful than Zom yet he decided to banish him rather than just destroy him.

Also, smdh at the people saying Strange beat Shuma within his own realm. It wasn't Strange, it's even said in the battle that Strange is no more. It was Strange/Arioch with additional power of sorceror supreme and cytorrak's artifacts, and even then he wasn't able to harm shuma until he started turning into Shuma-Gorath itself. It was Shuma's power defeating Shuma's power, and even then Shuma has that nice ability to turn whatever defeats it into itself. It was also enough to destroy galaxies just by being present.

Then there's also the fact that when Sise-Neg was near the end of his journey he realized Shuma-Gorath absorbs magical energy and wasn't sure if he could destroy him (he says he doesn't want to attempt to destroy Shuma, meaning he wasn't sure if he could. And at that point he had so much energy from the Marvel Universe that Strange couldn't even use any.

Then you have the fact that Shuma-Gorath and the rest of the Many-Angled Ones were alluded to being more powerful than the Cancerverse's Galactus Engine which was pwning Celestials and killing abstracts.

So based on feats and even Strange himself: Shuma > Zom.


Originally posted by Endless Mike
Classic Zom. Dr. Strange referred to him as the most powerful foe he ever fought.

Before encountering Shuma, and then Strange said he had never felt such a power when confronted by Shuma-Gorath.

zopzop
This thread still going on?

On panel evidence > braggadocio, implied power or hyperbole.

On panel Zom and Gorath have very very little to go by. The only thing is, Strange has never beaten Zom, not once. Strange has repeatedly beaten Gorath both in and out of his realm where he's supposedly omnipotent.

All Zom and Gorath have is hype.

On panel Set and Chthon have the better showings.

Set stalemated Demogorge for millions of years before Demogorge got the upper hand and won, this was after he punked Gaea and she called her son for aid. They fought again this time, Set kept Gaea imprisoned unable to call out for aid or free herself, while battling Demogorge/Thor/Strange/Quasar/Thing. Strange banished Set ONCE by tapping into the power of a Cosmic Cube and backed by the willpower of Scarlet Witch/Spiderman/Thing. Strange was never a match for Set either in or out of his realm.

Chthon's feats include making entire rivers turn to blood, making the FF become video waves on TV, trapping Asgard and a US state into some dimension where they had no contact with the outside world, warping reality on a planetary scale, and being the father of the greatest book of black magic in creation. Eternity himself thanked Pym for saving him from the threat of Chthon.

Black bolt z
Shuma.

CortSether
Originally posted by zopzop
This thread still going on?

On panel evidence > braggadocio, implied power or hyperbole.

On panel Zom and Gorath have very very little to go by. The only thing is, Strange has never beaten Zom, not once. Strange has repeatedly beaten Gorath both in and out of his realm where he's supposedly omnipotent.


Did you ever stop to consider the difference in the state of power Strange was in when in his situations with Zom and Gorath? Strange had already started to turn into Shuma-Gorath before he was able to even harm him. And on-panel Strange was about to be turned into Shuma-Gorath entirely which is why he impaled himself, so that neat trick Gorath has where whatever defeats him becomes him has the others beat. The only other time Strange defeated Shuma was in Shuma's low showing where he appeared already severely weakened when Nicholas Scratch summons him, and even then Strange almost died just leading the battle to Stonehenge so he could use its power to banish him.

Then there's also Thanos telling Mistress Death that the Many-Angled Ones (Kthl, Shuma-Gorath, Yot-Soter, Nyerlathortech) cannot die.

You're honestly saying Chthon or Set would be greater than Shuma and Zom?
sad

zopzop
@CortSether

We've been over this so many times in multiple threads so we both know each other's position on these characters.

Strange owned Gorath's "nearly omnipotent" lieutenant with ease, the fight only lasted like 4 panels or something. He then goes on to eradicate Gorath in the most idiotic way possible (hurling a flaming earth simulacrum at him). Strange has repeatedly defeated Gorath everytime they fought.

Colossus Big-C and I have pointed out Strange NEVER beat Set or Chthon in or out of their realms. Ever.

Strange repelled Chthon with a bolt of holiness or something and then ran with his tail between his legs out of Chthon's realm before he went mad.

The only time Strange ever had a chance against Set was backed by the power of a cosmic cube and shored up with the willpower of 3 other heroes. No "bolt of holiness", no "absorbing his power", no flaming simulacrums, no nothing to be used against Set. If it wasn't for the power of the cosmic cube or Thor getting Demogorge involved, Strange couldn't do anything to Set.

WhiteWitchKing
Originally posted by zopzop
@CortSether

We've been over this so many times in multiple threads so we both know each other's position on these characters.

Strange owned Gorath's "nearly omnipotent" lieutenant with ease, the fight only lasted like 4 panels or something. He then goes on to eradicate Gorath in the most idiotic way possible (hurling a flaming earth simulacrum at him). Strange has repeatedly defeated Gorath everytime they fought.

Strange beat SG after learning dark magic and absorbing the powers of his lieutenants to reach a power level which his mentor Kaluu. The Strange that fought Zom was younger and less experienced then the one that beat SG's first agent, Water Element. Yet he still held his own against Zom. The true Zom had one fight with Strange and nothing about it was impressive enough to say it's a match for SG.



Didn't Viper defeat Chthon with a laser gun? lol. We're using low showings too right?



And how much magic did Strange bring with him because he was absorbing mass amounts of it before reaching SG's realm, a place where even his master Kaluu couldn't journey due to that planes effect on his body.



Strange couldn't stop Sise-Neg from absorbing all the magic around him nor could he stop SG from consuming the primates. He essentially had to beg Sise-Neg to save them to which Sise-Neg chose to put SG to sleep rather than battle him because he was afraid SG would absorb the magic he'd amassed. The Strange that fought SG in his realm would whoop Set, Chthon, or Zom.

CortSether
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Strange beat SG after learning dark magic and absorbing the powers of his lieutenants to reach a power level which his mentor Kaluu. The Strange that fought Zom was younger and less experienced then the one that beat SG's first agent, Water Element. Yet he still held his own against Zom. The true Zom had one fight with Strange and nothing about it was impressive enough to say it's a match for SG.



Didn't Viper defeat Chthon with a laser gun? lol. We're using low showings too right?



And how much magic did Strange bring with him because he was absorbing mass amounts of it before reaching SG's realm, a place where even his master Kaluu couldn't journey due to that planes effect on his body.



Strange couldn't stop Sise-Neg from absorbing all the magic around him nor could he stop SG from consuming the primates. He essentially had to beg Sise-Neg to save them to which Sise-Neg chose to put SG to sleep rather than battle him because he was afraid SG would absorb the magic he'd amassed. The Strange that fought SG in his realm would whoop Set, Chthon, or Zom.

thumb up

And the fact that even with all the power Strange amassed before going there he couldn't even hurt Shuma until he was already in the process of turning in to him, which is why it makes sense that he was able to wield Shuma-Gorath's own earth replica. Speaking of which, I've never seen Zom or any of the other guys be able to nonchalantly effect the entire earth from their own realm.

zopzop
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Strange beat SG after learning dark magic and absorbing the powers of his lieutenants to reach a power level which his mentor Kaluu. The Strange that fought Zom was younger and less experienced then the one that beat SG's first agent, Water Element. Yet he still held his own against Zom. The true Zom had one fight with Strange and nothing about it was impressive enough to say it's a match for SG.



Didn't Viper defeat Chthon with a laser gun? lol. We're using low showings too right?



And how much magic did Strange bring with him because he was absorbing mass amounts of it before reaching SG's realm, a place where even his master Kaluu couldn't journey due to that planes effect on his body.



Strange couldn't stop Sise-Neg from absorbing all the magic around him nor could he stop SG from consuming the primates. He essentially had to beg Sise-Neg to save them to which Sise-Neg chose to put SG to sleep rather than battle him because he was afraid SG would absorb the magic he'd amassed. The Strange that fought SG in his realm would whoop Set, Chthon, or Zom.

Yet Strange still beat SG's "omnipotent" leiutenant in his own realm in 4 or so panels then went on to own Gorath in his own realm. Strange has beaten him in and out his realm. Strange has NEVER lost to Gorath.

Strange has NEVER beaten Zom.

The Strange that fought SG in his realm would NEVER happen vs Set or Chthon because he's faced them before and couldn't do jack to them.

zopzop
Originally posted by CortSether
Speaking of which, I've never seen Zom or any of the other guys be able to nonchalantly effect the entire earth from their own realm.

There are examples but I'm too lazy to look them up and confirm them.

WhiteWitchKing
Originally posted by zopzop
Yet Strange still beat SG's "omnipotent" leiutenant in his own realm in 4 or so panels then went on to own Gorath in his own realm.

Beat? You mean when he absorbed Arioch's power because he admitted he couldn't straight up stand up to that power right? He faced Arioch after fighting up the hierarchy of power levels and amassing power. The versions of Strange that fought Chthon, Set, and Zom are not at the same power level as this one.



Strange couldn't take on SG at all during the primative Earth age at it's height of power. He begged Sise-Neg to do so. In Strange Tales, he beat SG in it's realm after amassing dark magic, including Arioch's. In SG's first appearance in Strange's book, SG was merely manifesting in the Ancient One and all Strange did was kill the Ancient One to win. That other time was at Stone Henge when SG had just emerged into Earth plane when Strange sent banished it. At SG's height of power, Strange needed upgrades to fight him

As for lost, Strange and Kaluu ran from Ghaszaszh Nyirh and sealed off the gate. They couldn't even beat an agent of SG and ran from it. So yeah that's a lost. Only after Strange had learned and accepted black magic was he acquiring enough power to defeat the Old Ones.



I like how you say that as if it mattered, ignoring how they only had one fight and Zom NEVER defeated the younger Strange either. An older Strange and Kaluu ran from an underling of SG.



So a more powerful Strange that actually defeated SG and his lieutanants would never face Set and Chthon because an infinitely inferior version of Strange lost against these Elder Gods? Lol, that's not logic; it's plain nonsense.

zopzop
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Beat? You mean when he absorbed Arioch's power because he admitted he couldn't straight up stand up to that power right? He faced Arioch after fighting up the hierarchy of power levels and amassing power. The versions of Strange that fought Chthon, Set, and Zom are not at the same power level as this one.



Strange couldn't take on SG at all during the primative Earth age at it's height of power. He begged Sise-Neg to do so. In Strange Tales, he beat SG in it's realm after amassing dark magic, including Arioch's. In SG's first appearance in Strange's book, SG was merely manifesting in the Ancient One and all Strange did was kill the Ancient One to win. That other time was at Stone Henge when SG had just emerged into Earth plane when Strange sent banished it. At SG's height of power, Strange needed upgrades to fight him

As for lost, Strange and Kaluu ran from Ghaszaszh Nyirh and sealed off the gate. They couldn't even beat an agent of SG and ran from it. So yeah that's a lost. Only after Strange had learned and accepted black magic was he acquiring enough power to defeat the Old Ones.



I like how you say that as if it mattered, ignoring how they only had one fight and Zom NEVER defeated the younger Strange either. An older Strange and Kaluu ran from an underling of SG.



So a more powerful Strange that actually defeated SG and his lieutanants would never face Set and Chthon because an infinitely inferior version of Strange lost against these Elder Gods? Lol, that's not logic; it's plain nonsense.

The fact remains, Strange ABSORBED an "omnipotent" being's power with ease. Then went on to defeat another "omnipotent" being in his own realm.

Strange NEVER pulled that crap with either Set or Chthon. EVER. And Strange had the Ancient One's power too when he fought Zom, a manacled Zom. And still he was getting nowhere fast till the LT showed up and immolated Zom's ass.

Whatever happened with SG's recent appearance? I saw a scan on the "Ownage" thread of Vision stabbing him in his eye with a spear. A spear ..........

WhiteWitchKing
Originally posted by zopzop
The fact remains, Strange ABSORBED an "omnipotent" being's power with ease. Then went on to defeat another "omnipotent" being in his own realm.

And that is the fact. Strange amass power to absorbed an infinite beings power and beat SG through that. Strange need a huge power up to win. When his journey began, he ran from an underling of SG and got his eye destroyed.



And that's why the ST Strange would stomp the regular Strange. You make it sound as if Strange can just show up in SG's realm without any power ups and absorbed SG's power for a win. lol



In other words Zom never defeated an upgraded Strange either lol. In fact, Strange was more powerful than AO's rival Kaluu and then went on to take the power of Arioch to add to his own before he could face SG at all. Like I said, the Arioch empowered Strange would stomp the AO upgraded Strange.



Yeah mean the Spear of Destiny - plot device? It's the same Spear that opened up the dimensional barrier to allow SG to come through.

CortSether
Originally posted by zopzop
The fact remains, Strange ABSORBED an "omnipotent" being's power with ease. Then went on to defeat another "omnipotent" being in his own realm.

Strange NEVER pulled that crap with either Set or Chthon. EVER. And Strange had the Ancient One's power too when he fought Zom, a manacled Zom. And still he was getting nowhere fast till the LT showed up and immolated Zom's ass.

Whatever happened with SG's recent appearance? I saw a scan on the "Ownage" thread of Vision stabbing him in his eye with a spear. A spear ..........

It was the Spear of Destiny, and all it did was made the portal close up again and prevent Shuma from manifesting all the way. The Spear of Destiny is a major plot device weapon in every comic it is used in. It's even been used to harm Spectre in DC.

zopzop
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
And that is the fact. Strange amass power to absorbed an infinite beings power and beat SG through that. Strange need a huge power up to win. When his journey began, he ran from an underling of SG and got his eye destroyed.



And that's why the ST Strange would stomp the regular Strange. You make it sound as if Strange can just show up in SG's realm without any power ups and absorbed SG's power for a win. lol



In other words Zom never defeated an upgraded Strange either lol. In fact, Strange was more powerful than AO's rival Kaluu and then went on to take the power of Arioch to add to his own before he could face SG at all. Like I said, the Arioch empowered Strange would stomp the AO upgraded Strange.



Yeah mean the Spear of Destiny - plot device? It's the same Spear that opened up the dimensional barrier to allow SG to come through.

You're missing my point WWK. It's the fact that Strange so EASILY wtfpwned an 'omnipotent' lieutenant of SG's then went on to wtfpwn Gorath.

Strange had NO prayer against Chthon or Set, against a chained Zom he held his own with AO's power till the LT showed up.

PS Thank goodness it was the Spear of Destiny and not some random run of the mill weapon that hurt SG. That explains that.

WhiteWitchKing
Originally posted by zopzop
You're missing my point WWK. It's the fact that Strange so EASILY wtfpwned an 'omnipotent' lieutenant of SG's then went on to wtfpwn Gorath.

You're missing the point where Strange and Kaluu could only seal off an agent of SG. He couldn't beat one at the start. It was only until he began absorbing and upping his power level was he able to move up the hierarchy. Strange was upgraded when he fought Arioch and he beat him by absorbing his power, not in a straight up fight. How would he fare against Arioch or SG if he hadn't amassed more magic? He lost an eye trying to go up against one of the lower Old Ones.



In other words, he didn't have an upgrade at all. Gotcha. And Zom NEVER defeated him.

zopzop
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
You're missing the point where Strange and Kaluu could only seal off an agent of SG. He couldn't beat one at the start. It was only until he began absorbing and upping his power level was he able to move up the hierarchy. Strange was upgraded when he fought Arioch and he beat him by absorbing his power, not in a straight up fight. How would he fare against Arioch or SG if he hadn't amassed more magic? He lost an eye trying to go up against one of the lower Old Ones.



In other words, he didn't have an upgrade at all. Gotcha. And Zom NEVER defeated him.

WWK, the point is, he couldn't "upgrade" himself by absorbing their powers or the power of their artifacts (Darkhold, Serpent Crown), or their minions, or anything.. He was totally fugged against Set and Chthon. Against a CHAINED Zom with the AO's power he was just barely holding his own till the LT showed up and zapped Zom.

Strange owned Gorath and his minions with little, if any, trouble. Even in their own realms. Strange has repeatedly owned Gorath.

Looking back, all we have regarding Gorath and yes even Zom, is hype, braggadocio, and hyperbole.

rotiart
During the recent arcs I seem to remember lord Marvell invoking shuma gorath by name when attemptin to kill Thanos and thus all life in the marvel universe...

If that's true then in a way shuma goraths power was used to kill death in the many angled ones universe

CortSether
Originally posted by rotiart
During the recent arcs I seem to remember lord Marvell invoking shuma gorath by name when attemptin to kill Thanos and thus all life in the marvel universe...

If that's true then in a way shuma goraths power was used to kill death in the many angled ones universe

Hm. Well, Thanos even tells Mistress Death that the Many-Angled Ones cannot die, he calls them "undying ones". Though they do have host bodies that can be crippled.

bbrem123
shuma is a beast /thread

WhiteWitchKing
Originally posted by zopzop
WWK, the point is, he couldn't "upgrade" himself by absorbing their powers or the power of their artifacts (Darkhold, Serpent Crown), or their minions, or anything..

Since when does Strange absorb power from artifacts? And what minions are you referring too? Most of Chthon and Set's minions pale in comparison to Shuma Gorath's. I'd love to know which minion Strange encountered had enough power to make a difference in his fight against these Elder Gods?




So nothing then. Set and Chthon are minion gods compared to Shuma Gorath. SG conquerors countless dimensions while Set and Chthon can't even escape from the hole they dug themselves in. The Strange that beat SG and left with SG's power could've destroyed galaxies by being in the 616.



A younger Strange with AO power barely holding his own against Zom. Zom NEVER beat that Strange at all. One showing and all of a sudden he's more powerful than SG.



So in other words you're going to ignore his upgrades.

Zom had one good showing and never defeated a less experienced Strange.
Inferior versions of Strange didn't want to fight Elder Gods.

This isn't proof of anything. Strange's battle with SG was felt across dimensions causing eerie occurances.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/7/73437/1428370-sh_super.jpg



Looking back at Gorath, Sise-Neg (nearing the end of his journey) admitted that a fight would Gorath would leave Gorath to drain away much of the magic he'd acquire. Strange after becoming SG needed to burn away much of that power in order to return to the 616, afraid that his presence would wreck galaxies according to his mentor Kaluu. Gorath existed in a dimension that no man had ever ventured too until Strange did, a dimension that would kill lesser beings like Kaluu. He manipulated a Fear Lord to do his bidding against his will. Strange and Kaluu ran from Ghaszaszh Nyirh, an Old One under SG. Various demons served SG, even Sligguth, a spawn of Set.

Here's a list of servants of Shuma Gorath. None of the other's have minions comparable in power.

Arioch
Ghaszaszh Nyirh
Water Element
Nightmare
Kathulos
Kalun Gath
Vammatar
N'Gabthoth
Dagoth
Sligguth

Colossus-Big C
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing


Arioch
Ghaszaszh Nyirh
Water Element
Nightmare
Kathulos
Kalun Gath
Vammatar
N'Gabthoth
Dagoth
Sligguth some of these guys are also servants of SET, just saying. didnt shuma gorath use sets serpant crown in Invaders Now?

WhiteWitchKing
Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
some of these guys are also servants of SET, just saying. didnt shuma gorath use sets serpant crown in Invaders Now?

Already know that. So what's your point? Nightmare, Kathulos, Arioch, Ghaszaszh Nyirh, Water Element, Dagoth, Vammatar, and N'Gabthoth would stomp Kalun Gath, and Sligguth.

Colossus-Big C
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Already know that. So what's your point? Nightmare, Kathulos, Arioch, Ghaszaszh Nyirh, Water Element, Dagoth, Vammatar, and N'Gabthoth would stomp Kalun Gath, and Sligguth. just saying, but how did shuma gorath get to earth in invaders now?

CortSether
Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
just saying, but how did shuma gorath get to earth in invaders now?

Spear of Destiny

Colossus-Big C
Originally posted by CortSether
Spear of Destiny whats that

CortSether
Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
whats that

The Spear of Destiny, is the actual spear used by the Roman Centurion to pierce Christ's side during the Crucifixion. According to legend, whomsoever held it controlled the fate of the world.

rougeredmage
i dunno i was thinking even mephisto or cyrotakk

zopzop
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Since when does Strange absorb power from artifacts? And what minions are you referring too? Most of Chthon and Set's minions pale in comparison to Shuma Gorath's. I'd love to know which minion Strange encountered had enough power to make a difference in his fight against these Elder Gods?




So nothing then. Set and Chthon are minion gods compared to Shuma Gorath. SG conquerors countless dimensions while Set and Chthon can't even escape from the hole they dug themselves in. The Strange that beat SG and left with SG's power could've destroyed galaxies by being in the 616.



A younger Strange with AO power barely holding his own against Zom. Zom NEVER beat that Strange at all. One showing and all of a sudden he's more powerful than SG.



So in other words you're going to ignore his upgrades.

Zom had one good showing and never defeated a less experienced Strange.
Inferior versions of Strange didn't want to fight Elder Gods.

This isn't proof of anything. Strange's battle with SG was felt across dimensions causing eerie occurances.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/7/73437/1428370-sh_super.jpg



Looking back at Gorath, Sise-Neg (nearing the end of his journey) admitted that a fight would Gorath would leave Gorath to drain away much of the magic he'd acquire. Strange after becoming SG needed to burn away much of that power in order to return to the 616, afraid that his presence would wreck galaxies according to his mentor Kaluu. Gorath existed in a dimension that no man had ever ventured too until Strange did, a dimension that would kill lesser beings like Kaluu. He manipulated a Fear Lord to do his bidding against his will. Strange and Kaluu ran from Ghaszaszh Nyirh, an Old One under SG. Various demons served SG, even Sligguth, a spawn of Set.

Here's a list of servants of Shuma Gorath. None of the other's have minions comparable in power.

Arioch
Ghaszaszh Nyirh
Water Element
Nightmare
Kathulos
Kalun Gath
Vammatar
N'Gabthoth
Dagoth
Sligguth

Again, nothing impressive at all WWK. I'm sorry, I'm not trolling you it's just how it is.

I knew someone was going to bring up that Belasco scan. But in all fairness, Belasco is a mediocre mystic at best. Illyana beat him and she's no Strange. Hell Loki beat her with ONE finger. So if you have a guy that was beaten by someone who later got their face kicked in by Loki using ONE finger, what does that tell you? Belasco was engaging in hyperbole, because there's no way someone who can't even defeat Illyana is shoring up reality because of some cosmic throwdown.

And speaking of minions, here are a few of Set's :
http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/9167/marveltarotpage025artne.th.jpg

And from Marvel Appendix


Way more impressive than SG. By far.

Colossus-Big C
the Midgard Serpant of asgard is also one of sets grandsons, via his mother side

zopzop
Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
the Midgard Serpant of asgard is also one of sets grandsons, via his mother side

The Midgard Serpent, Dragon of the Moon, Typhon, and Siapep alone are more than anything SG has as servants/creations.

Siapep was owning Thor so bad, he said "none but Odin could match his power".

Concerning the Midgard Serpent from the Marvel Appendix :

CortSether
Originally posted by zopzop
The Midgard Serpent, Dragon of the Moon, Typhon, and Siapep alone are more than anything SG has as servants/creations.

Siapep was owning Thor so bad, he said "none but Odin could match his power".

Concerning the Midgard Serpent from the Marvel Appendix :


Arioch and Kathulos trump all of them.

zopzop
Originally posted by CortSether
Arioch and Kathulos trump all of them.

What have they done ON PANEL not hyperbole or smack talk that justifies this statement? The only thing I saw Arioch do was get shxt stomped by Strange. I'm unfamiliar with Kathulos.

CortSether
Originally posted by zopzop
What have they done ON PANEL not hyperbole or smack talk that justifies this statement? The only thing I saw Arioch do was get shxt stomped by Strange. I'm unfamiliar with Kathulos.

Arioch wasn't merely hyperbole simply based on the fact that his power gave Strange a large enough boost to stand up to Shuma.

Kathulos the Living Planet negated all of Doctor Strange's magic power so he was just an ordinary human while facing him. It was while in the process of absorbing Doctor Strange that Strange discovered the negation effect didn't work while in the absorption process and he was able to use power from the Cyttorak Crystals to fatally wound Kathulos while he was vulnerable.

zopzop
Originally posted by CortSether
Arioch wasn't merely hyperbole simply based on the fact that his power gave Strange a large enough boost to stand up to Shuma.

Ok so nothing on panel of him doing anything noteworthy?



I googled around and according the Marvel Appendix, Strange.......attacked it's roots and he died. Lame, very lame.

CortSether
Originally posted by zopzop
Ok so nothing on panel of him doing anything noteworthy?

I googled around and according the Marvel Appendix, Strange.......attacked it's roots and he died. Lame, very lame.


You mean aside from being able to stand up to Shuma? roll eyes (sarcastic)


Which wouldn't have worked at all had he not discovered that it was his one weakness. Like any of Set's servants would have discovered that. Kathulos would just negate any of their magic so they have nothing to attack him with.

zopzop
Originally posted by CortSether
You mean aside from being able to stand up to Shuma? roll eyes (sarcastic)

Yeah aside from that because some of us dont' find Shuma Gorath that impressive to begin with. So aside from that, there is nothing on Arioch except being owned by Strange?




Or they could you know, just have destroyed him. The Midgard Serpent alone is large enough to encircle and crush the planet Earth. All this assumes that he could even absorb their magic. Human sorcerers != Gods or the spawn of Gods. See the Blood and Thunder Thor arc for further proof.

CortSether
Originally posted by zopzop

Yeah aside from that because some of us dont' find Shuma Gorath that impressive to begin with. So aside from that, there is nothing on Arioch except being owned by Strange?

Or they could you know, just have destroyed him. The Midgard Serpent alone is large enough to encircle and crush the planet Earth. All this assumes that he could even absorb their magic. Human sorcerers != Gods or the spawn of Gods. See the Blood and Thunder Thor arc for further proof.

No. One of Kathulos' specific powers is to negate the abilities of others. That hasn't been contradicted so you can't say it wouldn't work on Set's servants. It's funny that you find every way to put down Shuma his servants' power yet you're trying to make out like the Midgard Serpant is something special :/

The fact is Arioch gave Strange a chance against Shuma-Gorath and Shuma-Gorath was the same entity who Sise-Neg wasn't sure he could destroy, the same who rules hundreds of dimensions, the same who was said cannot die, the same who the Vishanti were unable to defeat, the same who was alluded to being more powerful than the Cancerverse's Galactus Engine, the same who's energy was enough to bust galaxies by being present, the same that made the Ancient One tremble in fear, and the same who Doctor Strange basically admitted that Shuma-Gorath was its most powerful enemy yet and this is at a time when Dormammu was written to be insanely powerful compared to now and also after Strange's encounter with Zom. So the fact that Arioch was able to help Strange fight something with that power says alot about the power he wielded.

zopzop
Originally posted by CortSether
No. One of Kathulos' specific powers is to negate the abilities of others. That hasn't been contradicted so you can't say it wouldn't work on Set's servants. It's funny that you find every way to put down Shuma his servants' power yet you're trying to make out like the Midgard Serpant is something special :/

The fact is Arioch gave Strange a chance against Shuma-Gorath and Shuma-Gorath was the same entity who Sise-Neg wasn't sure he could destroy, the same who rules hundreds of dimensions, the same who was said cannot die, the same who the Vishanti were unable to defeat, the same who was alluded to being more powerful than the Cancerverse's Galactus Engine, the same who's energy was enough to bust galaxies by being present, the same that made the Ancient One tremble in fear, and the same who Doctor Strange basically admitted that Shuma-Gorath was its most powerful enemy yet and this is at a time when Dormammu was written to be insanely powerful compared to now and also after Strange's encounter with Zom. So the fact that Arioch was able to help Strange fight something with that power says alot about the power he wielded.

That's hyperbole or if we want to be generous, implied power. Nothing on panel. Alluded, is said, or words to that effect tell me we got nothing concrete on our boy Gorath.

The fact that Arioch was defeated in about 4-6 panels tells me he was nothing more than fodder/trash. Let's see Strange pull that garbage on Set, Chthon or an unshackled Zom. Hell let's see him pull these hijinx with Loki, Hela or Pluto, then I'll concede.

Uriel005
Originally posted by zopzop
That's hyperbole or if we want to be generous, implied power. Nothing on panel. Alluded, is said, or words to that effect tell me we got nothing concrete on our boy Gorath.

The fact that Arioch was defeated in about 4-6 panels tells me he was nothing more than fodder/trash. Let's see Strange pull that garbage on Set, Chthon or an unshackled Zom. Hell let's see him pull these hijinx with Loki, Hela or Pluto, then I'll concede. As I said the whole Shuma vs Strange arc was PIS loaded on stranges part. Strange had to channel Shuma against Shuma. Name one being that he has ever needed to do something like that to. Better yet name someone who can defeat themselves. As Prodigy showed others it's really not feasible to defeat your own power.

CortSether
Originally posted by zopzop
That's hyperbole or if we want to be generous, implied power. Nothing on panel. Alluded, is said, or words to that effect tell me we got nothing concrete on our boy Gorath.

The fact that Arioch was defeated in about 4-6 panels tells me he was nothing more than fodder/trash. Let's see Strange pull that garbage on Set, Chthon or an unshackled Zom. Hell let's see him pull these hijinx with Loki, Hela or Pluto, then I'll concede.

Arioch's claims of his power are valid. Strange even confirmed that Arioch had that power, which is why he said he didn't plan to stand up against it but rather just take it. That whole confrontation was PIS anyway. When has Strange before or after Arioch been able to force someone to merge with him? Hell, if he had that power he should have done that right from the start against the lesser demons like the Water Elemental or even Nightmare, but he didn't.

zopzop
Originally posted by Uriel005
As I said the whole Shuma vs Strange arc was PIS loaded on stranges part. Strange had to channel Shuma against Shuma. Name one being that he has ever needed to do something like that to. Better yet name someone who can defeat themselves. As Prodigy showed others it's really not feasible to defeat your own power.

Name another being that's been pwned that easily in their own realm using their own power? Cause Strange ran with his tail between his legs from Chthon in his realm and was helpless vs Set, helpless. Loaded with PIS? Maybe, but Gorath has lost to Strange one or two more times, I forget.

Let him try that garbage with Set or Chthon and let's see how long the fight lasts smile

zopzop
Originally posted by CortSether
Arioch's claims of his power are valid. Strange even confirmed that Arioch had that power, which is why he said he didn't plan to stand up against it but rather just take it. That whole confrontation was PIS anyway. When has Strange before or after Arioch been able to force someone to merge with him? Hell, if he had that power he should have done that right from the start against the lesser demons like the Water Elemental or even Nightmare, but he didn't.

Actually Arioch's claims were nullified the instant Strange wtfpwned him the way he did. Face it, he's never beaten supposed "lesser" demon lords like Satannish or Mephisto that way. The first and only time Arioch shows his face and he gets rape stomped. So much for "omnipotence".

CortSether
Originally posted by zopzop
Actually Arioch's claims were nullified the instant Strange wtfpwned him the way he did. Face it, he's never beaten supposed "lesser" demon lords like Satannish or Mephisto that way. The first and only time Arioch shows his face and he gets rape stomped. So much for "omnipotence".

By noting he's never beaten Satannish or Mephisto that way you are noting the PIS with Arioch because just a couple panels before Strange encounters Arioch Kaluu collapses within the realm and states that Mephisto and Satannish are like mice in a great temple compared to the energy inside it. Arioch was in a realm even further than that with even stronger energy so Arioch is obviously way more powerful than both Mephisto and Satannish.

zopzop
Originally posted by CortSether
By noting he's never beaten Satannish or Mephisto that way you are noting the PIS with Arioch because just a couple panels before Strange encounters Arioch Kaluu collapses within the realm and states that Mephisto and Satannish are like mice in a great temple compared to the energy inside it. Arioch was in a realm even further than that with even stronger energy so Arioch is obviously way more powerful than both Mephisto and Satannish.

Hence why I say it's hyperbole! "Lesser" demons he's NEVER pulled a stunt like this on. Yet this "omnipotent" demon gets pwned in a few panels. Since this was said demon's FIRST AND ONLY appearance, my money is on him not being anywhere near as "omnipotent" as he though he was.

CortSether
Originally posted by zopzop
Hence why I say it's hyperbole! "Lesser" demons he's NEVER pulled a stunt like this on. Yet this "omnipotent" demon gets pwned in a few panels. Since this was said demon's FIRST AND ONLY appearance, my money is on him not being anywhere near as "omnipotent" as he though he was.

It's not hyperbole, it's PIS. Strange's opponents grew more powerful as the journey went on, hell even Kaluu collapsed just going through the realms. He knows what Mephisto and Satannish are capable of and wasn't exaggerating when he said they were akin to mice in a temple. Arioch was really that powerful and Strange admits it by saying "I don't intend to stand against that power, not when I can take it" and forces a merging. The merging was the PIS but Arioch's power was not hyperbole since Strange/Arioch was able to fight Shuma with that power.

zopzop
Originally posted by CortSether
It's not hyperbole, it's PIS. Strange's opponents grew more powerful as the journey went on, hell even Kaluu collapsed just going through the realms. He knows what Mephisto and Satannish are capable of and wasn't exaggerating when he said they were akin to mice in a temple. Arioch was really that powerful and Strange admits it by saying "I don't intend to stand against that power, not when I can take it" and forces a merging. The merging was the PIS but Arioch's power was not hyperbole since Strange/Arioch was able to fight Shuma with that power.

He took his power and beat him in about 6 panels. I don't care how much of a Gorath fan you are, that's a pathetic showing! He's never been able to pull that garbage with Loki or Mephisto let alone Set and Chthon.

The creature's first and only appearance on panel was pathetically sad. Unless he's come back and showed off his stuff recently, it's all talk and not much else.

PS Kaluu was obviously dead wrong.

WhiteWitchKing
Originally posted by zopzop
He took his power and beat him in about 6 panels. I don't care how much of a Gorath fan you are, that's a pathetic showing! He's never been able to pull that garbage with Loki or Mephisto let alone Set and Chthon.

He didn't have to pull anything with Loki. An inexperienced Strange already stalemated Loki. As for Mephsito, he's taken on Mephisto before and walked out just fine. He fought Nyirh with help and still lost an eye from that encounter. Of all those spawns of Set, which one of them would be a match for Nyirh, Water Element, Kathulos, or Arioch? Kaluu, a peer of the Ancient One, was dying being in a lower dimension before reaching Arioch's. That part wasn't hyperbole how much you want to claim. Classic Strange couldn't have just shown up in Arioch realm without upgrades otherwise he be on the floor quivering like Kaluu unless you want to argue Strange with no power up is above Kaluu. Mephisto, Satannish, and even Chthon's realm has been ventured into by a non-upgraded Strange. Though it was difficult for Strange, he wasn't writhing on the floor in Chthon's realm like Kaluu. Just the realm beneath Arioch's own was enough to take out a peer of the Ancient One. What demon lord can make that claim? Doom, Thor, Hell Cat, and a number of other's have journeyed into the nether realms without much trouble. If it's not power, I don't know what is.



So you're point is that he's not powerful because an upgraded Strange beat him? Yeah let's ignore Strange's master lying in a comatose in the dimension beneath Arioch's.



Wait, so when he was on the ground in a dying state because of just the power from that realm he was just playing possum? Really? That's you're argument?! It was also just hyperbole when Strange's fight with Shuma Gorath in dimensions away set the sky on fire, day and night to become one red wrath, causing a gypsy's eyes to bleed, flowers of fire to bloom, Dr Druid feeling spikes in his skull, and Talisman feeling something claw out of his chest. None of that is hyperbole. Non of his fights with any of the 616 demons have resulted in such a side effect. The power level is complete different between these combatants compared to regular Strange and you're 616 demons. And how is Kaluu wrong when SG can wreck Earth just by wrecking an image of it? Set, Chthon, Mephisto, Satannish, Dormammu, you name it, they can only dream of such power.

As for the Migard Serpent or the Moon Dragon are comparable to Nightmare and Arioch? Yeah, that's not even accurate. They'd be dead just like Kaluu was in that lower dimension much less challenge Arioch.

zopzop
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
He didn't have to pull anything with Loki. An inexperienced Strange already stalemated Loki. As for Mephsito, he's taken on Mephisto before and walked out just fine. He fought Nyirh with help and still lost an eye from that encounter. Of all those spawns of Set, which one of them would be a match for Nyirh, Water Element, Kathulos, or Arioch? Kaluu, a peer of the Ancient One, was dying being in a lower dimension before reaching Arioch's. That part wasn't hyperbole how much you want to claim. Classic Strange couldn't have just shown up in Arioch realm without upgrades otherwise he be on the floor quivering like Kaluu unless you want to argue Strange with no power up is above Kaluu. Mephisto, Satannish, and even Chthon's realm has been ventured into by a non-upgraded Strange. Though it was difficult for Strange, he wasn't writhing on the floor in Chthon's realm like Kaluu. Just the realm beneath Arioch's own was enough to take out a peer of the Ancient One. What demon lord can make that claim? Doom, Thor, Hell Cat, and a number of other's have journeyed into the nether realms without much trouble. If it's not power, I don't know what is.


What the heck have either of those Gorath pawns done? Nothing on panel is impressive from them, except getting owned by Strange one by one.

Those heroes may have ventured into those nether realms, but none of them has defeated Set in his. Strange ran with his tail between his legs from Chthon's and NEVER defeated him there. Gorath can't claim that sadly.




Strange's master lies in a coma but Strange goes on to beat an "omnipotent" creature by just nonchalantly stealing his power? Since this was Arioch's first and last appearance and since we saw NOTHING to indicate he was any sort of "all powerful" we can conclude that he was trash that got disposed of in six or so panels.

And we can just write that incident as a low showing for Kaluu. Everyone has them, even the LT.




They can only dream of being shxt stomped by Strange in their own realm of power like Gorath was? If that's power, thank goodness Set/Chthon and crew are "powerless".



Nightmare?! Arioch?! Who hasn't beaten Nightmare! I think one issue had Strange put him in a headlock or choke hold! And ps what has Arioch done again except get his ass kicked? I'm drawing a blank.

WhiteWitchKing
Originally posted by zopzop


What the heck have either of those Gorath pawns done? Nothing on panel is impressive from them, except getting owned by Strange one by one.

Lol, I like how you still just ignore Strange's power up. Destroyed Strange's eye and had him and Kaluu running from his Nyirch temple. Water Element nearly killed Strange in a fight causing Strange to kill the host and lose his white magic. What has any agent of Set or Chthon done that's comparable? Fight Ghost Rider? lol

SG took over Nightmare and Ancient One. What Elder Demon has feats comparable?



Strange ran from Nyrich so what's your point? That Strange with power ups can't beat Set or Chthon? All you can say is Strange never defated Chthon or Set as if they fought numerous times and Strange failed. SG and Strange has more encounters then Strange does with these two. If Strange has one encounter with Chthon and does not go back for a rematch, you're point is Strange couldn't have beaten him if he came back with a power up? wtf. Both demons can't even escape their realm, they're no much of a concern. The only reason Strange decided to fight and defeat the Old Ones because they barriers were broken and they were on Earth readying to take over. Set and Chthon are still stuck in their realm. Do you see Strange going into Shuma Gorath's realm for a rematch? All he's done lately is close up the gate.

Get back to me when the Elder Gods are moving on Earth realm and in a Strange book and Strange runs from them. Then you'll have a point otherwise there's no fuse over this at all.



So what part of an powered-up Strange don't you understand? Even Kaluu admits Strange had the power to venture on while he, Kaluu, was lying on the ground dying. Arioch didn't need to be all powerful to be above the likes of the Earth demons. By that point, Strange was above his master in power and ventured into dimensions NO HUMAN has EVER gone. That's why lesser mages like Kaluu was dying.



Lol. How's it a low showing for Kaluu when he states that no human ever ventured into the realm and it was only Strange who had the power to venture on? Are you claiming Kaluu was more powerful than Strange at that point? We shouldn't write Strange's incidents with Set and Chthon as low showings but we should do the same for this? If you want to claim it as high showings for Strange, then this is not a low showing for Kaluu at all.



Lmao. Yeah because Strange with no power ups did so well against Nyirch huh? Oh wait, he got a cool eye-patch courtesy of SG's underling and ran away along with his master. An underling of SG chased off and wounded Strange and his master. Strange didn't even get help from Kaluu or a peer sorcerror against Set or Chthon. Not much of an argument.



But the Moon Dragon has more impressive feats right? Getting killed by Phyla-Vell must be something noteworthy. And the Migard Serpent, that things comparable to Arioch. I mean if Strange had absorbed the Migard Serpent, he'd easy walk into Arioch and SG's realm and beat the both of them - no need to take any other powerups when you have the Migard Serpents power. roll eyes (sarcastic)

And I like how you just ignored my post about their fight dimensions away wrecking havoc on Earth. Should I also point out that the Vishanti fought to hold Shuma Gorath in check but could never kill him back in SG's first appearance in Strange Tales? Then in these tales, Kaluu references this history to Strange, pointing out that he destroyed a Shuma Gorath when no sorcerrors, and not even Agamotto, has even done. Strange destroyed a being that the entire Vishanti fought in the past. Lol @ Set and Chthon. Remember that time when Set and Chthon created an image of Earth and wrecked it causing havoc on the actual Earth, oh wait...didn't I just say it was SG? Remember that time when a near-infinite Sise-neg put Set and Chthon to sleep rather than fight them fearing they would leech his power awayyyyyaminute...that was Shuma Gorath.

zopzop
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Lol, I like how you still just ignore Strange's power up. Destroyed Strange's eye and had him and Kaluu running from his Nyirch temple. Water Element nearly killed Strange in a fight causing Strange to kill the host and lose his white magic. What has any agent of Set or Chthon done that's comparable? Fight Ghost Rider? lol

SG took over Nightmare and Ancient One. What Elder Demon has feats comparable?

I like how you ignore that Strange you know never wtfpwned Set or Chthon like he did Gorath, like ever.

And I'm still trying to figure out this "power up" since the creature he got it from was basically instapwned by Strange.







Powered up by what? And Arioch isn't above ANY demon lord unless you got on panel evidence of him doing anything worthwhile. Hype, hyperbole, and braggadocio don't cut it.




If it happened once, you'd have a point. But Strange couldn't do jack crap vs Set until Thor ran for his life and fetched Atum/Demogorge. Earlier, he needed the power of a cosmic cube, backed by his artifacts and the willpower of 3 other people to banish Set from Earth.

Conversely Strange has owned Gorath both IN and OUT of his realm.



See above.



The Vishanti can't even handle Chthon so what's your point? He alone penned a book that rivals their combined efforts(the Darkhold). And his artifact is indestructible. Strange likewise was going insane inside Chthon's realm and fled for his life. But unlike Gorath, Chthon wasn't wtfpwned. Strange turned tail and got out of dodge.

WhiteWitchKing
Originally posted by zopzop


I like how you ignore that Strange you know never wtfpwned Set or Chthon like he did Gorath, like ever.

And how many encounters did he have against Set again? One. Set faced an average Strange and you're going to act like he fought a being capable wrecking havok on Earth and the Nether realms just as a result in his fight.



The eye socket he lost contained black magic. He used that eldricth so subdue the sprites of Earth. He goes off to fight the forces of Chaos off panel but later takes all the magic from his lover. They then journeyed to the realm beneath Arioch's and Kaluu went into a comatose. Unless you think average Strange is above Kaluu in power, Strange had gained more power than his master. The guy had power ups along the way to challenging Shuma Gorath and you're gonna pretend like it's nothing.



Black magic learned alongside Kaluu, the eldritch energy in his eye socket, and all of Victoria's magic. Lol at your claim it's hype when Kaluu was on the ground dying. So how is it hyperbole when a character is dying from being in a realm? Unless I missed something, most mystical beings are the power of their very realm. They hadn't even reach Arioch's realm.




You're talking about Marvel-Team which came 5 years before Strange fought the Old Ones. And in it, he fought the Serpent Crown and not Set himself. They only had one meeting which Strange didn't power himself up at all. Where would he get his power from before the confrontation? Absorbing the Migard Serpent's? Lol. Absorbing Set's power? He didn't face Arioch or Shuma Gorath without power-ups but he's going to absorb Set's off the bat like that? He couldn't do anything because he didn't have the necessary power to begin with unlike against Arioch and Shuma Gorath. In his prior fight he didn't have the necessary power to battle Nyirh and so he and Kaluu ran from it. All you've pointed to was an average Dr. Strange not beating Set as if he could've beaten Arioch or SG in that state either.



He destroyed the Ancient One's body because he could not beat SG. That's why the Ancient One is dead, not a Zom's hand but at Strange trying to prevent SG from come to the 616. He met SG again in prehistoric times and pleaded with a near-omnipotent for help. That third time he learned black magic and amass power beyond his new mentor, absorbing Arioch's power, and then becoming SG to beat SG. That was his only fight where he beat SG straight up. And that fight was beyond the Elder Gods scuffle with the Demogorge. The fourth time, Strange closed off the gate - he didn't straight up beat SG like before. Where does he straight up beat SG without a power up? If closing up a gate way counts as beating someone, Viper shot Chthon's face in and "beat" the demon. Chthon got beat by a laser gun; more powerful than SG indeed.



When was this stated that the Vishanti can't handle Chthon? Writing a book and fighting are different things. You're actually trying to claim the Vishanti can't beat Chthon if they fought?



What artifact are you referring too? His Darkhold which was scattered among the corners of the Earth?

lol, Strange had who's powers when he ventured into Chthon's realm again? Kaluu was dying two realms below SG's and you act as if regular Strange wouldn't either. This is seriously getting funny because Kaluu is on the floor dying before he ever reached SG's dimension and you act as if that never happened.

Basically, Chthon did was nothing Nyirh couldn't do to Strange. In just a temple (not dimension), Nyirh chased off Strange and another mage. So you're basically impressed by Chthon performing a feat that an underling of Shuma Gorath accomplished. That's your so called "proof" that Chthon is more powerful that Shuma Gorath who could destroy Earth just by wrecking it's image.

Letsee, Strange and SG's battle, a thousand planes away, nearly collapsed the Nether-realm, set the sky on fire, and almost destroyed Earth. Or Set's battle with Demogorge on Earth that only destroyed all the dinosaurs. Different power gap. When the talisman were broken, the best Set could do was call on Ghaur to free him while SG could've destroyed the Earth using an image. Hmmm...Set must be more powerful than SG. What awesome logic you've got there.

zopzop
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
And how many encounters did he have against Set again? One. Set faced an average Strange and you're going to act like he fought a being capable wrecking havok on Earth and the Nether realms just as a result in his fight.



The eye socket he lost contained black magic. He used that eldricth so subdue the sprites of Earth. He goes off to fight the forces of Chaos off panel but later takes all the magic from his lover. They then journeyed to the realm beneath Arioch's and Kaluu went into a comatose. Unless you think average Strange is above Kaluu in power, Strange had gained more power than his master. The guy had power ups along the way to challenging Shuma Gorath and you're gonna pretend like it's nothing.



Black magic learned alongside Kaluu, the eldritch energy in his eye socket, and all of Victoria's magic. Lol at your claim it's hype when Kaluu was on the ground dying. So how is it hyperbole when a character is dying from being in a realm? Unless I missed something, most mystical beings are the power of their very realm. They hadn't even reach Arioch's realm.




You're talking about Marvel-Team which came 5 years before Strange fought the Old Ones. And in it, he fought the Serpent Crown and not Set himself. They only had one meeting which Strange didn't power himself up at all. Where would he get his power from before the confrontation? Absorbing the Migard Serpent's? Lol. Absorbing Set's power? He didn't face Arioch or Shuma Gorath without power-ups but he's going to absorb Set's off the bat like that? He couldn't do anything because he didn't have the necessary power to begin with unlike against Arioch and Shuma Gorath. In his prior fight he didn't have the necessary power to battle Nyirh and so he and Kaluu ran from it. All you've pointed to was an average Dr. Strange not beating Set as if he could've beaten Arioch or SG in that state either.



He destroyed the Ancient One's body because he could not beat SG. That's why the Ancient One is dead, not a Zom's hand but at Strange trying to prevent SG from come to the 616. He met SG again in prehistoric times and pleaded with a near-omnipotent for help. That third time he learned black magic and amass power beyond his new mentor, absorbing Arioch's power, and then becoming SG to beat SG. That was his only fight where he beat SG straight up. And that fight was beyond the Elder Gods scuffle with the Demogorge. The fourth time, Strange closed off the gate - he didn't straight up beat SG like before. Where does he straight up beat SG without a power up? If closing up a gate way counts as beating someone, Viper shot Chthon's face in and "beat" the demon. Chthon got beat by a laser gun; more powerful than SG indeed.



When was this stated that the Vishanti can't handle Chthon? Writing a book and fighting are different things. You're actually trying to claim the Vishanti can't beat Chthon if they fought?



What artifact are you referring too? His Darkhold which was scattered among the corners of the Earth?

lol, Strange had who's powers when he ventured into Chthon's realm again? Kaluu was dying two realms below SG's and you act as if regular Strange wouldn't either. This is seriously getting funny because Kaluu is on the floor dying before he ever reached SG's dimension and you act as if that never happened.

Basically, Chthon did was nothing Nyirh couldn't do to Strange. In just a temple (not dimension), Nyirh chased off Strange and another mage. So you're basically impressed by Chthon performing a feat that an underling of Shuma Gorath accomplished. That's your so called "proof" that Chthon is more powerful that Shuma Gorath who could destroy Earth just by wrecking it's image.

Letsee, Strange and SG's battle, a thousand planes away, nearly collapsed the Nether-realm, set the sky on fire, and almost destroyed Earth. Or Set's battle with Demogorge on Earth that only destroyed all the dinosaurs. Different power gap. When the talisman were broken, the best Set could do was call on Ghaur to free him while SG could've destroyed the Earth using an image. Hmmm...Set must be more powerful than SG. What awesome logic you've got there.

Wall of text with nothing really there WWK.

Fact remains every time they fought Strange owned Gorath. The most embarrassing was the defeat in his own realm by Strange. Strange never defeated Chthon or Set in their realms and never defeated Zom period (even while he was shackled and Strange had the AO's power).

He couldn't "power" himself up vs Set and crew because they don't have gimp underlings that boast of "limitless" power then get rape stomped by a magician.

Set was exorcised back into his nether realm by the power of a cosmic cube backed by Strange's artifacts. Gorath was wtfpwned by Strange (in and out of his realm). The Dreaming Celestial trembled at the thought of Set's rising. Check the Secret Avengers 1-4 it gets even more interesting.

Eternity thanked Pym from saving him from the threat of Chthon.

The LT had to make a personal appearance to deal with a shackled Zom after Zom caused the "Flames of Regency" Umar to run for her life.

Yet for Gorath, none of the above even cared.

PS I love how you bring up Nyirh as if he was anything special. He took over a sub 3rd world area where people were living in mud huts and sacrificing their children to him! The fact that Strange struggled with such an "awesome" foe is laughable.

WhiteWitchKing
Originally posted by zopzop
Wall of text with nothing really there WWK.

Fact remains every time they fought Strange owned Gorath. The most embarrassing was the defeat in his own realm by Strange. Strange never defeated Chthon or Set in their realms and never defeated Zom period (even while he was shackled and Strange had the AO's power).

Then why didn't Chthon kill Strange again? That faith bolt was too much huh? Embarrassing is being harmed by a "faith bolt". WTF is that nonsense? Yeah think a faith bolt is going to harm Shuma Gorath? Chthon never defeated Strange and got whomped by a some lame attack that some random priest would do.

This is the best you've got?



You're calling the Migard Serpent for what it is: gimp.



?He fought the Serpent Crown, not Set. Got scans to back you up that it was actually Set and not the Serpent Crown?



LMAO. By this point you just want to ignore everything just so you can say Set is greater than SG. I understand tho with the lack of evidence to back you.



Oh, so we're to believe the Dreaming Celestial's little stir puts Set above SG and yet ignore how a Sise-Neg avoided a straight up confrontation with SG? You really want to get into a debate between the Elder Gods Vs the Celestials? The fear of a Celestial or the fear of Sise-Neg? Gee, which being absorbed everything and created the big bang?



Lol. In other words Chthon got beat by Henry Pym. Add that to Chthon's list of losses. Pym embarrassed him by preventing him from casting spells - some powerful demon right there. lol. A threat to the universe? Throw a faith bolt at him or laser blaster for wins. Talk about horrible showings. Atleast SG's losses aren't embarrassing like Chthon.



The Tribunal made a personal appearance before Mephisto too. By your logic, Mephisto> Chthon and Set. Some logic.



Except for the near Godly being saw SG as a threat if they fought. See, LT shows up and Zom burst into the wind. Sise-Neg sees SG and doesn't want to confront him head on so he saps enough power from SG before SG notices and puts the Old One to sleep. But you're gonna try and ignore this part too right? Zom was in no way a threat to LT while SG was a threat to Sise-Neg. Zom died. SG was only put to sleep.



Letsee, so you have no come back from this point and ignore that the Old Ones had just begun their take over of Earth. The being with just a temple blinded Strange and Kaluu and had them run from it. Whereas Strange with a "faith bolt" had Chthon think twice about keeping him in his realm. With his entire realm at his disposal, he couldn't destroy regular Dr. Strange. Some power house you got there.

CortSether
Galactus Engine in Thanos Imperative was pwning cosmics and abstracts and it was stated that a group of more powerful entities were coming through the fault from behind the Galactus Engine, which could only mean the Many-Angled Ones, of which Shuma-Gorath is a part of, since they imbued the Galactus Engine with its power.

Set and Chthon are nowhere close to Shuma-Gorath's power.

zopzop
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Then why didn't Chthon kill Strange again? That faith bolt was too much huh? Embarrassing is being harmed by a "faith bolt". WTF is that nonsense? Yeah think a faith bolt is going to harm Shuma Gorath? Chthon never defeated Strange and got whomped by a some lame attack that some random priest would do.

This is the best you've got?



You're calling the Migard Serpent for what it is: gimp.



?He fought the Serpent Crown, not Set. Got scans to back you up that it was actually Set and not the Serpent Crown?



LMAO. By this point you just want to ignore everything just so you can say Set is greater than SG. I understand tho with the lack of evidence to back you.



Oh, so we're to believe the Dreaming Celestial's little stir puts Set above SG and yet ignore how a Sise-Neg avoided a straight up confrontation with SG? You really want to get into a debate between the Elder Gods Vs the Celestials? The fear of a Celestial or the fear of Sise-Neg? Gee, which being absorbed everything and created the big bang?



Lol. In other words Chthon got beat by Henry Pym. Add that to Chthon's list of losses. Pym embarrassed him by preventing him from casting spells - some powerful demon right there. lol. A threat to the universe? Throw a faith bolt at him or laser blaster for wins. Talk about horrible showings. Atleast SG's losses aren't embarrassing like Chthon.



The Tribunal made a personal appearance before Mephisto too. By your logic, Mephisto> Chthon and Set. Some logic.



Except for the near Godly being saw SG as a threat if they fought. See, LT shows up and Zom burst into the wind. Sise-Neg sees SG and doesn't want to confront him head on so he saps enough power from SG before SG notices and puts the Old One to sleep. But you're gonna try and ignore this part too right? Zom was in no way a threat to LT while SG was a threat to Sise-Neg. Zom died. SG was only put to sleep.



Letsee, so you have no come back from this point and ignore that the Old Ones had just begun their take over of Earth. The being with just a temple blinded Strange and Kaluu and had them run from it. Whereas Strange with a "faith bolt" had Chthon think twice about keeping him in his realm. With his entire realm at his disposal, he couldn't destroy regular Dr. Strange. Some power house you got there.

Again, a whole lot of nothing. It's walls of text to cover the shame of Gorath getting beaten by Strange both in and out of his realm.

You got awesome minions of Gorath with "limitless" mystic power being stomped in 6 panels by Strange or harassing third worlders in mudhuts. Supremely powerful beings who were beaten by having their roots attacked by the Crimson Bands and others with such power they can make it rain!

PS Strange RAN from Chthon, conversely he PWNED Gorath! See the difference? He did nothing but crumble into a fetal position in Set's realm, thankfully Demogorge/Thor showed up.

zopzop
Originally posted by CortSether
Galactus Engine in Thanos Imperative was pwning cosmics and abstracts and it was stated that a group of more powerful entities were coming through the fault from behind the Galactus Engine, which could only mean the Many-Angled Ones, of which Shuma-Gorath is a part of, since they imbued the Galactus Engine with its power.

Set and Chthon are nowhere close to Shuma-Gorath's power.

Gorath is more powerful than abstracts but he can't beat Strange? Set and Chthon caused Strange to flee not the other way around.

WhiteWitchKing
Originally posted by zopzop
Again, a whole lot of nothing. It's walls of text to cover the shame of Gorath getting beaten by Strange both in and out of his realm.

So you're not going to answer it?



You got Strange with Arioch's power and Shuma Gorath fighting a thousand dimensions away causing the sky of Earth to burn, the Nether-realms near collapse, and demonic events happening to the sorcerror's of Earth. But yeah, ignore that part.



?! That's your counter? Faith bolt anyone?



Faith bolt owned Chthon. Strange should've brought a laser gun too. Explain how a laser gun or some faith bolt is even close to killing the Ancient One? Strange ran from Nyirh, nuff said. No powerup and Strange ran from an underling. No biggie.




Yeah, a hand gun shot Chthon that beat him while it took the death of the Ancient One to beat stop. Do you see the difference here?

In SG realms, Strange became SG to beat SG. While in Chthon's realm a "faith bolt" caused Chthon to send Strange out of his realm. Do you see the difference between? One attack from Strange f##k with Chthon while an amped Strange still had to become SG to beat him.



And who's power was he amped with? Oh that's right, none. And where does he curl up in Set's realm? Scans? I guess you're confusing this with Kaluu dying in that lower realm.

So again, SG was going to destroy the Earth with just an image from a thousand plane away. Set at his height caused the dinsosaurs extinct in a fight with Demogore. lol @ Set and Chthon.

zopzop
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
So you're not going to answer it?



You got Strange with Arioch's power and Shuma Gorath fighting a thousand dimensions away causing the sky of Earth to burn, the Nether-realms near collapse, and demonic events happening to the sorcerror's of Earth. But yeah, ignore that part.



?! That's your counter? Faith bolt anyone?



Faith bolt owned Chthon. Strange should've brought a laser gun too. Explain how a laser gun or some faith bolt is even close to killing the Ancient One? Strange ran from Nyirh, nuff said. No powerup and Strange ran from an underling. No biggie.




Yeah, a hand gun shot Chthon that beat him while it took the death of the Ancient One to beat stop. Do you see the difference here?

In SG realms, Strange became SG to beat SG. While in Chthon's realm a "faith bolt" caused Chthon to send Strange out of his realm. Do you see the difference between? One attack from Strange f##k with Chthon while an amped Strange still had to become SG to beat him.



And who's power was he amped with? Oh that's right, none. And where does he curl up in Set's realm? Scans? I guess you're confusing this with Kaluu dying in that lower realm.

So again, SG was going to destroy the Earth with just an image from a thousand plane away. Set at his height caused the dinsosaurs extinct in a fight with Demogore. lol @ Set and Chthon.

You keep mentioning the "Arioch amp" like it's something quantifiable. We don't know how powerful Arioch was at all. He got his ass handed to him by Strange so fast we couldn't even get a good gauge of his abilities and power level. Worse, what we did see was mere illusion casting!

Strange was going mad inside Chthon's realm, distracted Chthon and then he fled! He never beat Chthon. All Chthon's losses on Earth were because of his host bodies. Recently while on Earth : He banished Asgard and a US state to some nether realm and King Thor had no clue what to do, warped the people on Earth into abominations, trapped the FF as tv signals, and more. This wasn't even him exerting himself in battle.

Concerning Set, Strange and crew were on their knees about to bite the big one till Demogorge/Thor showed up. Set was battling them WHILE holding a fellow Elder God prisoner, something Thor didn't even think was possible. Earlier it took a cosmic cube, the will of Strange/Wanda/Thing/Spiderman AND Strange's artifacts to exorcise Set from the planet. That's a shxtload of power. Then you have Set's million year old stalemate with Demogorge before Demogorge gained the upper hand. This being made Skyfathers panic.

Strange couldn't "amp" (drain their minions, use their own power against them, etc..) vs Elder Gods because that piddling crap don't work on them. Maybe Gorath and his minions have to step up their game and stop harassing mud hut dwelling natives in loincloths and take on Gods (or at least people that have running water).

Vs a SHACKLED Zom, Strange was barely holing his own even with the AO's power until the LT came along and saved the day.

WhiteWitchKing
Originally posted by zopzop
You keep mentioning the "Arioch amp" like it's something quantifiable. We don't know how powerful Arioch was at all. He got his ass handed to him by Strange so fast we couldn't even get a good gauge of his abilities and power level. Worse, what we did see was mere illusion casting!

Of course we can gauge it. It gave Strange enough power to fight SG. When Strange became SG, his entrance into the lower realm caused a natural discharge of power that Kaluu noted would destroy galaxies if Strange entered the 616 without burning up most of that power. The power to wreck galaxies by being in a lower realm - that's quantifiable.



Hmmm...an unamped sorceror decides visit a chaos dimension and succumbs to it's power...Kaluu anyone? But was it killing him like Kaluu, nope.

He then hurls a spell molded from belief/faith/will that causes Chthon to howl in pain, striking back at Strange and sent him hurling out of Chthon's dimension. He didn't flee that dimension; he harmed Chthon enough that it lashed out and blasted him out. lol Fled? Chthon was harmed by one spell from Strange - one!



Strange had no trouble of preventing Chthon from forming on Earth without killing the Victoria. All it took was a spell using all that is highest and purest in her soul. Jeezes, and had Chthon not retreated he would've been destroyed! Letsee Strange try this purest soul crap with Shuma Gorath. Remember when Strange and the Ancient One had no other option of stopping SG from entering the world through the AO so Strange had to KILL his master instead? Lol @ this soul thing that Chthon could've been destroyed from.



You forget how Loki easily crossed that barrier threw a wrench in Chthon's plans. The so called chaos Chthon was creating when he was present is a minor feat compared to Shuma Gorath being a thousand planes away and wrecking havoc to Earth using just a voodoo image.

And then Chthon got his butt kicked in by Hank Pym, Scientist Supreme (lol).



Yeah, this is a way better feat then having powers that could wreck all from a thousand planes away using just a voodoo image. Or being such a power house that a near Godly Sise-Neg opted not to fight but rather put SG to sleep before SG is aware of Sise-Neg. It takes him a million year to fight another god and the result was the death of the dinosaur? And you some how put that above Sise-Neg avoiding a confrontation with SG.



Who was he going to get an amp from? The midwife who's purpose is to act as a midwife or those minor demons? Some amp there.

As for Set, he's getting an amp from? Those useless Serpent Men? When he takes their power, he takes all their magic from them. The only one he could've taken powers from was Thor and then you'd have Thor, former god of thunder. lol



He harassed Strange and took over the Ancient One's body. Strange killed the Ancient One to stop SG b/c there was no other choice according to the Ancient One. Chthon goes about and picks on a woman and got handled by her purest of soul that could've actually destroyed him had he not retreated. Remember that other time when Viper vaporized him with a gun? Maybe for Chthon to have some street creds, he should avoid picking on women...or women beaters like Pym.




I remembered the Ancient One dying too. But according to this he was pretending to die to bring Strange's potential out. Going to dive through my Dr. Strange Essential this weekend to see if this is true. If this is true, then Zom didn't even fight an amped Strange but a rookie Strange who was still learning. The Ancient One does die permanently tho to stop Shuma Gorath from coming to the 616.
http://marvel.com/universe/Ancient_One_(sorcerer)

Uriel005
it is true that Zom was much earlier in Strange's career and he still hasn't conquered even one dimension.

zopzop
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Of course we can gauge it. It gave Strange enough power to fight SG. When Strange became SG, his entrance into the lower realm caused a natural discharge of power that Kaluu noted would destroy galaxies if Strange entered the 616 without burning up most of that power. The power to wreck galaxies by being in a lower realm - that's quantifiable.



Hmmm...an unamped sorceror decides visit a chaos dimension and succumbs to it's power...Kaluu anyone? But was it killing him like Kaluu, nope.

He then hurls a spell molded from belief/faith/will that causes Chthon to howl in pain, striking back at Strange and sent him hurling out of Chthon's dimension. He didn't flee that dimension; he harmed Chthon enough that it lashed out and blasted him out. lol Fled? Chthon was harmed by one spell from Strange - one!



Strange had no trouble of preventing Chthon from forming on Earth without killing the Victoria. All it took was a spell using all that is highest and purest in her soul. Jeezes, and had Chthon not retreated he would've been destroyed! Letsee Strange try this purest soul crap with Shuma Gorath. Remember when Strange and the Ancient One had no other option of stopping SG from entering the world through the AO so Strange had to KILL his master instead? Lol @ this soul thing that Chthon could've been destroyed from.



You forget how Loki easily crossed that barrier threw a wrench in Chthon's plans. The so called chaos Chthon was creating when he was present is a minor feat compared to Shuma Gorath being a thousand planes away and wrecking havoc to Earth using just a voodoo image.

And then Chthon got his butt kicked in by Hank Pym, Scientist Supreme (lol).



Yeah, this is a way better feat then having powers that could wreck all from a thousand planes away using just a voodoo image. Or being such a power house that a near Godly Sise-Neg opted not to fight but rather put SG to sleep before SG is aware of Sise-Neg. It takes him a million year to fight another god and the result was the death of the dinosaur? And you some how put that above Sise-Neg avoiding a confrontation with SG.



Who was he going to get an amp from? The midwife who's purpose is to act as a midwife or those minor demons? Some amp there.

As for Set, he's getting an amp from? Those useless Serpent Men? When he takes their power, he takes all their magic from them. The only one he could've taken powers from was Thor and then you'd have Thor, former god of thunder. lol



He harassed Strange and took over the Ancient One's body. Strange killed the Ancient One to stop SG b/c there was no other choice according to the Ancient One. Chthon goes about and picks on a woman and got handled by her purest of soul that could've actually destroyed him had he not retreated. Remember that other time when Viper vaporized him with a gun? Maybe for Chthon to have some street creds, he should avoid picking on women...or women beaters like Pym.




I remembered the Ancient One dying too. But according to this he was pretending to die to bring Strange's potential out. Going to dive through my Dr. Strange Essential this weekend to see if this is true. If this is true, then Zom didn't even fight an amped Strange but a rookie Strange who was still learning. The Ancient One does die permanently tho to stop Shuma Gorath from coming to the 616.
http://marvel.com/universe/Ancient_One_(sorcerer)

First of all, there is ZERO proof Strange would have shattered a world let alone a galaxy with his aura after the Gorath fight. Unless you got on panel proof of Gorath being a galaxy buster.

That's the thing though, Strange harassed Chthon with a "purity" bolt and Strange fled his realm, he didn't shatter Chthon like he did Gorath - IN GORATH'S OWN REALM OF POWER. He didn't turn Chthon's power back at him, he didn't absorb/drain Chthon of power leaving him dead, nothing.

Chthon getting pwned while in human hosts isn't impressive at all since they are attacking him at his weakest link, his host body. And speaking of which, at least Viper used first world tech (a gun) and Hank Pym has some knowledge of human physiology to attack Chthon's host and disrupt his speech patterns. Gorath and crew were beaten by Neanderthal shamans (depending on source) and harassing loincloth clad grass hut dwellers. Keep it classy Gorath.

Fact still stands Set only lost to a) a cosmic cube backed by the power of Strange's artifacts and b) Classic Demogorge (who had Odin in a panic and that's saying something). Never to Strange, in or out of his realm.

Here is the scan regarding the Ancient One :
http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/1936/strangetales1200167142.th.jpg

He did indeed have the AO's power. So it was a shackled Zom vs AO amped Strange and Strange couldn't put down, banish, leech power from or otherwise beat Zom. Thank the Vishanti the LT showed up big grin

PS Zom did in fact have Strange dead to rights but then he sensed the LT and panicked, the scan is in my Zom respect thread. Strange is dazed wondering why Zom didn't finish off the attack. Too lazy to look it up but it's there.

zopzop
Originally posted by Uriel005
it is true that Zom was much earlier in Strange's career and he still hasn't conquered even one dimension.

It's also true that Strange never beat a shackled Zom even with the Ancient One's power and Zom almost killed Strange had he not panicked at the coming of the LT.

Zom was shackled (circumstances unknown) by Dormammu and then imprisoned by Eternity with a "Crown of Blindness" and banished to a prison beyond all space/time. Then he's wtf pwned by the LT and exists as a sliver of his former self. Don't see how he has much time to conquer anything after a beating like that.

Let's see Gorath step up his game and challenge Dormammu or Eternity or the LT and see how many dimensions he conquers after that, he can't even deal with Strange.

Deadline
What no Mephisto?

753
Originally posted by Deadline
What no Mephisto? he's microbe next to the others.


I think Zom is the strongest followed by Shuma. Cthon and Set are insects compared to them.

zopzop
@753

Is he? Mephisto stalemated Galactus in his realm before Galactus threatened to consume it and has said that inside his hell he's the equal to Odin or Zeus.

Zom, Gorath, and Chthon don't have that kind of feat on panel. Set stalemated Classic Demogorge for a million or so years before Demogorge gained the upper hand. How does this feat compare to Mehphisto's? Depends on how you view Galactus and Demogorge power wise.

And like you I used to think Zom or Gorath were the head honchos with Zom edging out Gorath. But now I'm not so sure either are anything impressive.

I'd reorder my original power scale as : Set > Chthon > Zom > Gorath. I want to post a Secret Avengers scan that would have us believe Set older than the Celestials or Watchers and is a universal threat. But the story is confusing. So I'm holding off on the scan till someone can confirm or deny my understanding of the story.

For reference sake it's Secret Avengers 1-4, they find a Serpent Crown in a hidden temple on Mars.

753
wasnt it outright stated mephisto was like a rat in shuma's temple?

zopzop
Originally posted by 753
wasnt it outright stated mephisto was like a rat in shuma's temple?

Yes but that means nothing. Arioch claimed "limitless" power and all we saw him do was attack Strange with an illusion. Unless Gorath and Mephisto have fought and Gorath pwned him, I don't think Kaluu's statement means anything.

753
Originally posted by zopzop
Yes but that means nothing. Arioch claimed "limitless" power and all we saw him do was attack Strange with an illusion. Unless Gorath and Mephisto have fought and Gorath pwned him, I don't think Kaluu's statement means anything. when strange became shuma, his mere presence in the 616 would destroy the solar system (or galaxy? its been years).

zopzop
Originally posted by 753
when strange became shuma, his mere presence in the 616 would destroy the solar system (or galaxy? its been years).

That's what Kaluu said. But nothing was shown on panel. And hence my point. Hype, hyperbole, and braggadocio are meaningless unless it's backed up on panel.

On panel Umar stated if Zom ever broke free from his shackles no power in the universe could stop him or his rampage. Was she telling the truth? Or was it hype/hyperbole? We'll never know because Zom did nothing on panel to back up Umar's hyping of him.

Compare this to Mephisto, he bragged that in his hell realm he was the equal to Odin or Zeus. He backed up that claim when he stalemated Galactus till Galactus threatened to devour his hell realm.

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