infinity vs power gem vs pheonix

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Colossus-Big C
who win here

zopzop
I'd go with the Full Phoenix Force.

the Darkone
power gem

Colossus-Big C
how so?

GalacticStorm
The Phoenix is beyond both. As confirmed by the Handbook and the feats of the Phoenix Force and its avatars, the Force is multiversal.

Infinity is a universal abstract that taps into the universes ambient energies, the power gem like the other infinity gems tap into the power of the Big Bang and is very much universal.

If an avatar of the Force, one not even wielding its full power (as evidenced by the fact that there were dozens of other empowered avatars present) can manipulate all that is the universe in the palm of her hand, then that avatars power levels are grossly superior to the little abstracts who are aspects of said universe whose atomic structure she manipulated in her palm.

The full Phoenix Force is beyond any universal abstract or artifact.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by zopzop
I'd go with the Full Phoenix Force.

thumb up

King Kandy
lol, what's the power gem doing here? By itself it's a joke at this level.

Omega Vision
Originally posted by King Kandy
lol, what's the power gem doing here? By itself it's a joke at this level.
Its a rock. Infinity is a two-dimensional drawn character, ergo paper. Paper beats rock. However in certain fanfiction Jean Gray is a lesbian. Lesbians scissor. Scissors beats paper.

Phoenix wins.

Insane troll logic is fun.

Stall_19
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Its a rock. Infinity is a two-dimensional drawn character, ergo paper. Paper beats rock. However in certain fanfiction Jean Gray is a lesbian. Lesbians scissor. Scissors beats paper.

Phoenix wins.

Insane troll logic is fun.

laughing laughing

mykke
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Its a rock. Infinity is a two-dimensional drawn character, ergo paper. Paper beats rock. However in certain fanfiction Jean Gray is a lesbian. Lesbians scissor. Scissors beats paper.

Phoenix wins.

Insane troll logic is fun.

post of the year

john allerdyce
PF

Mr Master
Infinity FTW in a stomp! ... Don't believe the bull shit Phoenix hype yall!


Planetary EMP,
which evidently is enough to shatter the almighty PF! smile

......................................................................................

Xorn, killing Jean Grey ... and exploding the actual Phoenix Force itself!

......................................................................................


On Panel:

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/534712_jean_dies1.jpg

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/534714_jean_dies2.jpg

......................................................................................


Beast remembers:

http://s1d4.turboimagehost.com/t/2120694_jeandiesuj7.jpg

......................................................................................


Bio:

......................................................................................


(From the Official Marvel Universe Handbook 2005)

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/543034_hct2005.jpg

"Jean Grey was Killed by an Electromagnetic Pulse,

this shattered the Force into Billions of PIECES"

......................................................................................


(from WC Phoenix - Jean Grey's official 2008 bio)

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/537120_jean.jpg

"Jean opposed faux Magneto but was killed by a lethal EMP
that shattered the Phoenix Force into Billions of pieces"

......................................................................................


This incident involving Xorn & the Phoenix Force
was actually recalled by the embodiment of the Phoenix Force itself in "Endsong"

http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/4225596_pfbillioncl9.jpg

"I thought I was Dead, in a Billion Billion pieces"

Mr Master
Heck, the SHiar has made the almighty Phoenix Force it's ***** as well:


Actually they (Shiar) not only forced the PF's resurrection:


But they also shattered the PF itself into pieces partially due to the "Event Horizon"
as Tenebrous pointed out.

So canonically, the PF has been shattered TWICE!

1. Into Billions of pieces by an EMP at the hands of Xorn.

2. By a Shiar device as well.

......................................................................................


On Panel proof:


Here's the PF again, being shattered, this time by the Shiar:

http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/1807411_pf2rm9.jpg




In fact, Jean Grey was STILL DEAD, since Xorn's EMP!

http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/1807412_pf4li2.jpg





Here's the Shiar at the end of the issue,
explaining the "Eleka'an Event Horizon" they used on the PF.
The PF survived by escaping at the last moment,
but it was still injured, dying, meh, literally shattered AGAIN!

http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/1807413_pf5oq4.jpg

......................................................................................


Bio confirmation of said on panel proof:

http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/1807414_pf8mb4.jpg

"The Force was later ripped back to reality by a Shiar device
that forcibly reconstituted it. Injured, the Force fell ....
searched for Jean and, finding her DEAD, resurrected her ..."

Mr Master
laughing ... Heck ... even a few heroes are enough to handle the Force itself!

===========================


A Few members of the X-Men and Ultra Force (six in all)
are sent to battle the actual Phoenix Force (host-less) ... this is the real deal.

http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/1547141_P1.jpg

.................................


"The assembled Heroes are tired & battered,
the Phoenix (no host) is reborn and fresh"

And they're still holding their own! thumb up

http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/1547142_P2.jpg

http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/1547143_P3.jpg


The Six heroes beat (physically) the Phoenix Force (no host) into and through the Portal:

http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/1547144_P4.jpg


The Phoenix Force ends up displaced by Four Billion Years:

http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/1547145_P5.jpg

==============


(From the Official Marvel Universe Handbook 2005)

http://s1d4.turboimagehost.com/t/2122019_Ulti.jpg

"the Heroes were able to drive the FORCE into another portal,
and it emerged Four Billion years in the Past"




Confirmed Again in the 2007 Handbook Bios:

http://s1d4.turboimagehost.com/t/2122020_Ulti1.jpg http://s1d4.turboimagehost.com/t/2122021_Ulti2.jpg

psycho gundam
infinity never got her ass kicked like that

zopzop
Originally posted by psycho gundam
infinity never got her ass kicked like that

Anytime, anyone, anywhere destroyed a universe, that's Infinity getting her ass kicked.

The Phoenix Force has destroyed the universe a couple of times over. That's kicking Infinity's ass and every other abstract and creature within said universe.

WhiteWitchKing
Originally posted by zopzop
Anytime, anyone, anywhere destroyed a universe, that's Infinity getting her ass kicked.

The Phoenix Force has destroyed the universe a couple of times over. That's kicking Infinity's ass and every other abstract and creature within said universe.

When did the PF destroy a universe? I've seen the PF get beaten back by the X-Men and Ultraforce. When a planetary attack shatters it into a million pieces, that's like getting beaten up by Infinity's skin cell.

psycho gundam

Mr Master
Originally posted by zopzop

Anytime, anyone, anywhere destroyed a universe, that's Infinity getting her ass kicked.
That's an alternate reality's universal aspect of Infinity, not 616 Infinity.
Infinity is a single conscience across the infinite realities, and that means,
even Infinity's alternates speak as though they are the "Totality" of Infinity,
we know this because of an on panel account concerning an alternate Eternity.

Now, if you can re-arrange and/or destroy the 616 Reality, you score big points,
because on panel accounts tells us 616 is the source of all.
Originally posted by zopzop

The Phoenix Force has destroyed the universe a couple of times over. That's kicking Infinity's ass and every other abstract and creature within said universe.
The PF has never destroyed a universe outside of a "What if" title.

... it's done that twice,
which is enough to supplant it as a universal power concerning "What ifs", erm
but evidently it's durability is shit ...
which makes it vulnerable to the likes of "Alien starships" (almost got killed by one)

psycho gundam
Originally posted by Mr Master
but evidently it's durability is shit ...
which makes it vulnerable to the likes of "Alien starships" (almost got killed by one)

^

Originally posted by psycho gundam


smile

KingD19
This conversation has made me horny for some strange reason.... no expression

Colossus-Big C
Originally posted by zopzop

The Phoenix Force has destroyed the universe a couple of times over. That's kicking Infinity's ass and every other abstract and creature within said universe. not really, death and oblivion outlive eternity and infiity

zopzop
Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
not really, death and oblivion outlive eternity and infiity

Exactly my point. PF > Power Gem > Infinity. We weren't discussing Death or Oblivion. big grin

@Mr Master

Uhm, how would the writers show the PF destroying 616 when that would basically be the end of everything.

The writers wisely use What If's when they want something universe shaking but without fooling with 616 continuity because that would be messy all around.

In fact, in ALL Marvel Comic's history how many times have we seen a universe destroyed on panel? Either 616 or in an alternate universe?

Off the top of my head -

Phoenix TWICE. What If : Jean Grey had not died and What If : Wolverine was alive during the Age of Conan.

Thanos once with the plot device of the uni... I mean the HotU.

All other universe busting feats were using the UN by someone (see Korvac in What If - Korvac had not died).

See a pattern? It's either a plot device - the UN/HotI or the PF.

KuRuPT Thanosi
Infinity gets the easy win here.

WhiteWitchKing
Originally posted by zopzop
Exactly my point. PF > Power Gem > Infinity. We weren't discussing Death or Oblivion. big grin

@Mr Master

Uhm, how would the writers show the PF destroying 616 when that would basically be the end of everything.

The writers wisely use What If's when they want something universe shaking but without fooling with 616 continuity because that would be messy all around.

In fact, in ALL Marvel Comic's history how many times have we seen a universe destroyed on panel? Either 616 or in an alternate universe?

Off the top of my head -

Phoenix TWICE. What If : Jean Grey had not died and What If : Wolverine was alive during the Age of Conan.

Thanos once with the plot device of the uni... I mean the HotU.

All other universe busting feats were using the UN by someone (see Korvac in What If - Korvac had not died).

See a pattern? It's either a plot device - the UN/HotI or the PF.

Lol. Go read the forum rules please.

zopzop
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Lol. Go read the forum rules please.

LOL roll eyes (sarcastic) I read them. That's not the point. My point was the PF is easily capable of universal level destruction (at the MINIMUM). All other universe busters have been shown using plot devices : HotI and the UN.

That's why I was asking him to SHOW me universal level destruction ANYWHERE in 616 or in a What If (after all, What If's are alternate universes).

So far the only ones I can think of are involving the PF going berserk and ending it all.

psycho gundam
Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
infiity

http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/1531/regjm.jpg


http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/5781/1525507803l.jpg

31

WhiteWitchKing
Originally posted by zopzop
LOL roll eyes (sarcastic) I read them. That's not the point. My point was the PF is easily capable of universal level destruction (at the MINIMUM). All other universe busters have been shown using plot devices : HotI and the UN.

Prove she can without bringing up a What If.



- Maelstrom creating a black hole that was swallowing up the 616. The Celestials and Watchers showed up to watch the end of the universe as they posses no power to stop it.
- Kubik warping Beyonder's universe in his hand.
- http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/5/56665/1293003-vishanti_agamotto_galactus06_super.jpg




...in a What If. In another What If, Maelstrom stalemated Thanos with the IG. Outside of What If, Maelstrom withstood the attack of the IG and came close to destroying the 616. The PF has done no such thing.

zopzop
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Prove she can without bringing up a What If.


SHOW ME ANYWHERE A UNIVERSE WAS DESTROYED ON PANEL (616 or What If). I listed my examples. The PF does it under it's own power with absolutely no need for a plot device (UN or HotI).




FAIL. The universe was NOT destroyed was it? I asked you to show me a universe biting the dust on panel. So far you've failed.






That's great but what does that have to do with anything? I didn't see a universe being wiped out did you? I saw the Sun being torn apart but that's about it (in the What If you mentioned with Thanos/Maelstrom going at it).

WhiteWitchKing
Originally posted by zopzop
SHOW ME ANYWHERE A UNIVERSE WAS DESTROYED ON PANEL (616 or What If). I listed my examples. The PF does it under it's own power with absolutely no need for a plot device (UN or HotI).

From a What If, which isn't even canon. Thanks for playing. That's not the same Phoenix Force you do know right? There's another What If where Wolverine sliced off Thanos' arm in one swipe. Another What If where Doom retained his Beyonder powers and attained the Infinity Gauntlet as well. But with that much power, it still took him 407 Earth years to defeat a Celestial Host and shattered the gem and most of his Beyonder's power. The IG in the canon universe had little resistant at all. Eternity, Galactus, Epoch, the Celestials, and the other cosmics deities were brushed aside in under a minute.



Lol. You wanted to know if anyone has the power to do it. The only reason it wasn't destroyed was because Maelstrom was beaten. Phoenix never even came close to that in any canon stories. That's why you have to bring in a What If. You have no other source to back up your claim that Phoenix can destroy the universe in a canon story.



Lol. Oh so now it's basically the IG isn't it's universal wrecking levels because you didn't see a universe destroyed huh? So everything happening in the What If is canon to the regular universe but not vice versa huh?

My point is, Maelstrom in canon story stopped the mention of the universe and created a black hole that was sucking eveything into it and only stopped because Infinity's avatar but him in a match. What you've been mentioning is feats from PF that come from a non-canon. Feats that are irrelevant to the canon universe, hence why it's in the forum rules.

Where does it say anywhere in the fight that we're using What If's as well to base their power? If it's not specified by the original poster, we go by forum rules. What If's aren't canon.

PF NEVER destroyed a universe. Hence it's not doing anything to Infinity at all. She crushes the PF.

zopzop
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
From a What If, which isn't even canon. Thanks for playing. That's not the same Phoenix Force you do know right? There's another What If where Wolverine sliced off Thanos' arm in one swipe. Another What If where Doom retained his Beyonder powers and attained the Infinity Gauntlet as well. But with that much power, it still took him 407 Earth years to defeat a Celestial Host and shattered the gem and most of his Beyonder's power. The IG in the canon universe had little resistant at all. Eternity, Galactus, Epoch, the Celestials, and the other cosmics deities were brushed aside in under a minute.

What If's ARE canon. How did the Starbrand get into the 616 universe? I'll tell you how, Quasar was blasted into the Starbrand multiverse by a What If version of Maelstrom and found his way back.

What If's are ALTERNATE universes. That issue of Quasar made it clear. In these ALTERNATE universes we've seen the PF pwn a universe using nothing but it's OWN power, TWICE. Show me where any other being has done that on panel. That's what I'm asking you.


And the IG in that universe fought THE ENTIRE CELESTIAL RACE, not merely a host. Not just 2 of them. The IG in 616 fought : Galactus, Love/Hate, Order/Chaos, Stranger, Eon, and TWO Celestials. My money's on the ENTIRE Celestial being greater than the power assembled in 616 to fight the IG.





The writers through the years have made it clear that the PF is at least capable of universal destruction. We have a "canon" reference by the Watcher that the PF is second only to the Creator in power. We have "canon" references by BOTH Death AND Galactus that the PF will/can destroy all that is AND bring about new life from that destruction.





And yet he NEVER destroyed a universe on panel did he? Aside from the PF and the UN/HotI, this is the best example you can give because you know such a feat is a rarity. In both 616 and alternative universes. The fact that the PF has been shown doing it twice (that I can recall) is lost on you.

Another thing the PF has stopped a super massive black hole from destroying the universe before it's called the Neutron Galaxy contained in the M'kran Crystal. So it's been there and done that.

rotiart
The Phoenix force? Meh cannon. Phoenix seen messing with the universe in the palm of her hand

Franklin Richards under his sheetsndoing the same thing with a pocket universe

Franklin created the heroes reborn universe

Starbrand is cannon to 616 because it was made cannon by bringing it in... Those other stories are not cannon because while
Similar there is no frame of reference comparing if they had the dame ACTuAL levels of power. Don't stop owing off on a nut with capsnit doesn't serve your purpose

And yes they are alternate uni eras. In one the living tribunal had to confine Michael korvac an conisder destroying the whole universe because o him... In 616 living tribunal didn't bother to intervene... Why didn't that show a difference in power levels?

And as far as galactus who fires the um whih is a part of him tonsedeay abraxas a multiverseal threat that was collapsing realities with his approach alone...

616 cannon

rotiart
I am realky sorry. Typing in a iPhone suxxors

rotiart
And btw cannon magneto/xorn wtfpwning the Phoenix force.

rotiart
Oh also I you compare 616 mjj was more powerful than his alternate universe counterpart in 238?

In an alternate universe punished killed everyone...

Btw the ultimates is considered an alternate universe too... Do you compare anyone in there to 616?

What about the characters from age of apocalypse... You know the one where wolverine loses a hand...

And thinking o alternate universes let's think about alternate futures too like where wolverine is just a skeleton cause he's dead and in another future he's a hooded figure...

Oye

rotiart
There is also an alternate universe where everyone has an alter ego and in that universe noone has powers but when Jennifer Walters (shehulks) alter ego came to our universe she gained the powers of her alter ego... So heck there's an entire universe of people from 616 that are even completely depowered... So how do u compare...

WhiteWitchKing
Originally posted by zopzop
What If's ARE canon. How did the Starbrand get into the 616 universe? I'll tell you how, Quasar was blasted into the Starbrand multiverse by a What If version of Maelstrom and found his way back.


So because Maelstrom blasted Quasar into the multiverse, it makes that Maelstrom's powers and history canonical to the powers and history of the Maelstrom of mainstream universe? Lol.


No Non-canon Sources
Non-canon sources are invalid for evidence. With rare exceptions, comics not in continuity such as Elseworlds, What Ifs, or alternate universes are not used for evidence in debates of a particular mainstream character.

A canon source is one that is regarded as being 'in continuity'. In the example of Star Trek; instances from the series and movies can be used, but books are definitely out. Comic book crossovers are usually unusable as they ignore common sense most of the time (DC vs. Marvel is certainly unusable in some cases in our debates!).

This includes JLA/Avengers. Canon or not, people just aren't going to agree on it in most cases. Besides, there should be plenty of other comics with which to make your point.




And what does that universe's Phoenix have to do with mainstreams? Show me where a What If PF applies to this fight? Who cares if a What If version did it. It's feat don't apply to mainstream Phoenix.

HOM Wanda.



WoW, the entire Celestial race is made up of 5 Celestials? I thought that be more. That "race" is less than the 4th Host that showed up on Earth.

Your money means nothing because Death, Galactus, The One Above All Celesials, Ziran, Stranger, Chaos, Order, Love, and Hate were all there and got stomped. That's more power than 5 Celestials.



We have canon evidence that Odin is omnipotent when he's not. We have feats of him destroying galaxies to shaking the multiverse. But truth is he isn't omnipotent. Lol. Phoenix never came close to destroying a universe. Don't you understand that? The Phoenix Force isn't comparable to the IG so how can it be second to the creator? It's nothing but a parrot to the Living Tribunal who shut down the Gauntlet's attack in a second.



Aside from what Phoenix feat? You that What If that's not relevant to mainstream Phoenix? Lol. So said you have nothing to prove your claims.



It's been there because it's the guardian of that crystal. It's done what it's meant to do. So what? In fact, before all this bullshit about the PF being the sum of life unborn and ressurrection force nonsense later on, it's sole purpose was the guardian of the crystal. So it stopped what it was created to do. It's never destroyed a universe in mainstream. Infinity wins.

zopzop
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing

No Non-canon Sources
Non-canon sources are invalid for evidence. With rare exceptions, comics not in continuity such as Elseworlds, What Ifs, or alternate universes are not used for evidence in debates of a particular mainstream character.

A canon source is one that is regarded as being 'in continuity'. In the example of Star Trek; instances from the series and movies can be used, but books are definitely out. Comic book crossovers are usually unusable as they ignore common sense most of the time (DC vs. Marvel is certainly unusable in some cases in our debates!).

This includes JLA/Avengers. Canon or not, people just aren't going to agree on it in most cases. Besides, there should be plenty of other comics with which to make your point.

Maelstrom was going toe to toe vs Thanos with the IG. You make of that what you will. It was an ALTERNATIVE universe in which Quasar failed to stop Maelstrom.






What If's are ALTERNATE universes do you understand? The writers obviously believed the PF to be capable of universe level destruction because they wrote it that way not once but twice and from different decades.

HOM Wanda? Please check the Phoenix respect thread and see why this is actually a feat for the PF.



Did you even read the issue? Doom stated they ALL came but in waves. Wave after wave until they all died and the Gems were exhausted of power and destroyed! Their ENTIRE race vs the IG + Beyonder's power.




Odin KNEELED before Arshiem in humiliation. Jean with a SLIVER of the PF blew off Arshiem's hand (the one that judges worlds).



Jean using the PF has held an entire universe in the palm of her hands. Infinity gets crushed LITERALLY.

The PF held back the power of the Neutron Galaxy that's within the M'kran Crystal. Imagine Maelstrom's super massive black hole. That's what Jean saved the universe from.


And I'm STILL waiting for a universal destruction feat not using a plot device in either 616 or any alternate universe.

GalacticStorm
Phoenix doesnt need to be depicted on panel destroying a universe when she has feats which place her beyond simple universal destruction.

Manipulating the atomic structure of the entire universe as we saw in New X-men 154 is a faaaar greater feat than simply blowing a universe apart. Takes considerably more power and a higher level of finesse and control. This feat was performed by just one of the hosts Phoenix was empowering at the time showing you the Forces power is faaar greater than any universal force or artifact.

Furthermore the fact that it is stated time and time again that the Phoenix is the Big Bang, that she is the power source behind the stars, the sum and substance of all that is shows you that by its very nature it is quite capable of at least universal destruction. Dont be so fallacious WhiteWitchKing. thumb down

GalacticStorm
WWK, you and your mistress get absolutely slaughtered on this issue periodically and have nothing but your opinion against on panel statements and Handbook verification.

In my absences you try to opportunely fill the heads of new registrants with your shit

You do make me laugh laughing out loud

rotiart
@galacticstorm: I think the current argument is that you can't use non canon (what Ifs) and call them canon. There are differences in power and there is no guarantee that any dispersement across the multiverse is exactly the same considering there has to be a difference somehow to arrive at the situation that creates the divergence,

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by rotiart
@galacticstorm: I think the current argument is that you can't use non canon (what Ifs) and call them canon. There are differences in power and there is no guarantee that any dispersement across the multiverse is exactly the same considering there has to be a difference somehow to arrive at the situation that creates the divergence,

Oh i understand that, but that argument is going off in an unnecessary tangent from the main debate.

Zopzop was making the very logical point that you can hardly show a 616 character destroying the universe as it is the reality all of our stories take place in.

However the point was unnecessary when we have as i mentioned Jean Grey performing feats beyond that of mere universal destruction.

Furthermore that was just Jean and not the full Force which should basically just end this debate.

Not only that but if the Phoenix is the Big Bang, then of course universal destruction is within its capabilities.

Also the new handbook makes reference to the old on panel statement which refers to the Phoenix Force as a multiversal power. Which would make sense given the central Phoenix Consciousness that can empower universal scale matter manipulators, located within the multiversal nexus that is the M'Kraan crystal.

WhiteWitchKing
Originally posted by zopzop
Maelstrom was going toe to toe vs Thanos with the IG. You make of that what you will. It was an ALTERNATIVE universe in which Quasar failed to stop Maelstrom.

So your point is? Doom with Beyonder's power + IG fought years just to beat 5 Celestials.



What part of Forum rules is it hard for you to understand? I guess the writers feel that Wolverine can slice Thanos' arm off like it was a tree branch huh?

They write it that way because What If's give them the freedom to do whatever the hell they want without impacting the mainstream books. That's why universes can be destroyed, character's power level can fluctuate from mainstream, and characters are sometimes out of character from main stream. You don't understand the concept of What If's huh? The fact that it's an alternate version, how in the world can you say they're the same level in power is beyond me.



Please don't point me to a thread made by that liar Galacticstorm who's nothing but a Phoenix dickrider and tell me I should see it. I've seen more than enough of his bullshit including trying to claim what happened in X-Men Forever as proof that the Phoenix is superior to the Living Tribunal.



Yeah, I do. All it says is "five years into the future. They do not stop coming. I do not back down." And it's still the same five Celestials he's fighting.



And Thor cracked Exitar's armor, the one that destroys worlds. Thor also put down Rachel with the Phoenix Force. Xorn killed Jean and shattered the Phoenix Force.



That's a representation of the universe, not the actual universe. She fixed everything by telepathically bringing Scott and Emma together and ending the future in Here Comes Tomorrow. Did you even read that story and understand what's going on?



She stopped that because of her link with the crystal. What part of that is so hard to understand? Next your going to tell me about how Firelord stopped a sun from going nova and that means he can beat Beta Ray Bill.



Because the Phoenix Force performed such a feat in mainstream right? Lol. Infinity destroys it. Have you ever seen Infinity get beaten by Xorn, Thor, or alien ships?

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Have you ever seen Infinity get beaten by Xorn, Thor, or alien ships?

Irrelevant. The full Force has never been beaten by such things. Distracted hosts, or avatars of the Force have, but never the full Phoenix Force.

An appearance of the firebird does NOT equate to an appearance of the full Phoenix Force. The firebird is merely an avatar of the Force as stated many times on panel including the Ultraforce crossover with the alien mothership. smile

The firebird is an avatar that lets you know that the actual sentience of the Phoenix Force is in operation as opposed to just a host that is accessing the Forces power.

Now you have been enlightened, your argument is redundant.

Please do better, or dont bother. erm

GalacticStorm
I'll gladly posts scans of the firebird being referred to as a mere avatar of the Force.

Do you really want me to? I will! eek! laughing

GalacticStorm
Im anxiously waiting WWK.

What have you got for me? eek!

An endless cycle with the same result.

Do you know what? Im gonna go to bed, i'll deal with your waffle in the morning laughing out loud

rotiart
So we do realize that even reed Richards has manipulated te entire universe with the palms of his hands right? With the other reeds he was moving alround planetary bodies course that was tech...

Jamie Braddock...
Franklin Richards...

Yay

zopzop
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
So your point is? Doom with Beyonder's power + IG fought years just to beat 5 Celestials.


It CLEARLY SAYS THEIR ENTIRE RACE. You can read right?




You just proved my point. Why not show it more often if they have the freedom to do whatever they want in What If/Alternate universes? Please show me universal destruction on panel ANYWHERE not using a plot device. I'm still waiting and you are still beating around the bush.




Please don't point me to a thread made by that liar Galacticstorm who's nothing but a Phoenix dickrider and tell me I should see it. I've seen more than enough of his bullshit including trying to claim what happened in X-Men Forever as proof that the Phoenix is superior to the Living Tribunal.

How is he a liar?

A) Excalibur's lighthouse was seen as the "breech" in the multiversal Wanda spell. The PF was the one that projected the Lighthouse into EVERY PLANE OF EXISTENCE in creation. It was even stated in an Excalibur issue where Necrom was using it to compress all reality into 616 and rule over it using the SLIVER of the PF he had.

B) It was shown ON PANEL Eternity, Infinity, and the LT himself KNEELING before Jean as the Phoenix.





And he specifically says their ENTIRE race perished. He had the IG and Beyonder's power, he was freaking omniscient. I'll take it he knows what he was talking about.





Thor cracking Exitar's armor means jack. Odinforce Destroyer "cut" off a Celestials hand. Jean with a SLIVER blew off Arshiem's hand of judgment and they fled the planet.

Thor putting down Rachel, the most pathetic user of the PF means little. Necrom was destroying SOLAR SYSTEMS with a PF sliver while she was hurling asteroids at him. Her stupidity shouldn't be used against the PF.

Xorn killing Jean :rollseyes:




One of the PF corps members even states "It's only one universe, just leave it be." Hardly a representation. She held an actual universe in the palm of her hand. Should she have crushed it, there goes all the abstracts INCLUDING Infinity.




Her power held it back. Firelord's stopping of a sun going nova is an awesome feat. And why can't he beat BRB?




Explain to me HOW the writers would show the PF destroying 616. We DID see Infinity kneeling before Jean though.

WhiteWitchKing
Originally posted by zopzop
It CLEARLY SAYS THEIR ENTIRE RACE. You can read right?

Scans?



Read up on it noob. Why don't you go through the old treads regarding the Phoenix Force. You get info from a fanboy. None of what've brought is new. It's all been debated before.

You think LT actually bowed before the PF? How much of a noob can you be? This is the most recent. There's a good number of scans proving why LT never bowed before PF. In fact, I brought the scans that showed how much of a liar GS is. Most of the old board members should know this. You obviously don't because you're a noob. The first crappy scans in that thread is brought to you by GS himself. Can't stop loving how he cuts up one pic into two and pass it off as the abstracts bowing before the PF.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=531291&highlight=Phoenix+Stranger+forumid:77

rotiart
I still don't believe any abstract was bowing to stranger.. They were just showing the strangers plan to usurp everything but it's not as though he had already accomplished that. :-/

KuRuPT Thanosi
LT bowing to the stranger LOL LOL OMG this again

zopzop
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Scans?


http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/4544/doomcelestials8.jpg





How is he a liar? There are scans in the Respect thread showing this. You have proof that he cut a pic in two to lie?


EDIT : Ah I see now. So it's a vision she was experiencing of the Stranger's plan to dominate the universe. Lame.

GalacticStorm
Hey WWK. I love how you ignore my points and continue to debate irrelevant side issues.laughing out loud

You know your place. yes

I put you there eek!

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by zopzop
http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/4544/doomcelestials8.jpg





How is he a liar? There are scans in the Respect thread showing this. You have proof that he cut a pic in two to lie?


EDIT : Ah I see now. So it's a vision she was experiencing of the Stranger's plan to dominate the universe. Lame.

Ignore the child.

He is one hard pressed individual who takes every opportunity he can to try and gain some meaningless online victory against me.

Half of the time he knows he's talking shit, but as long as its in opposition to me thats the bandwagon he'll be hopping on to laughing out loud

If you look at those posts, they were back in 2005. Before i knew about downloading whole comics. In those days i used to just scan my actual comics and use the jpegs in debates.

People were trying to say that wasnt LT bowing, therefore i cropped the image and showed a closeup of LT bowing.

WWK and his mistress unable to gain a debating victory over me instead attempted to try and discredit me by saying i was selectively editing images to present a false story. Even though common sense would tell anybody that im not the only person in the world with that comic roll eyes (sarcastic)

He has tried over the years laughing

Power Cosmic II
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Ignore the child.

He is one hard pressed individual who takes every opportunity he can to try and gain some meaningless online victory against me.

Half of the time he knows he's talking shit, but as long as its in opposition to me thats the bandwagon he'll be hopping on to laughing out loud

If you look at those posts, they were back in 2005. Before i knew about downloading whole comics. In those days i used to just scan my actual comics and use the jpegs in debates.

People were trying to say that wasnt LT bowing, therefore i cropped the image and showed a closeup of LT bowing.

WWK and his mistress unable to gain a debating victory over me instead attempted to try and discredit me by saying i was selectively editing images to present a false story. Even though common sense would tell anybody that im not the only person in the world with that comic roll eyes (sarcastic)

He has tried over the years laughing

As a serious man myself, I can tell you straight up you take yourself WWAAAAAAAY too seriously.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Power Cosmic II
As a serious man myself, I can tell you straight up you take yourself WWAAAAAAAY too seriously.

Nah not at all bro.

All laughs and games.

I come on here and have a laugh at the lengths victims like WWK will go to to try and get one over me. smile

They get out debated, instead of moving on, they hold grudges over years. Thats why i enjoy coming bk on here from time to time. Its all fun big grin

rotiart
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Nah not at all bro.

All laughs and games.

I come on here and have a laugh at the lengths victims like WWK will go to to try and get one over me. smile

They get out debated, instead of moving on, they hold grudges over years. Thats why i enjoy coming bk on here from time to time. Its all fun big grin

No he's right. All you have to do is read the posts you've done on this page alone to see how serious you take this stuff. Re read all your posts on this page alone... And if you don't think your posts come off... In the wrong manner... You need to take a Longer step back.

zopzop
Originally posted by rotiart
No he's right. All you have to do is read the posts you've done on this page alone to see how serious you take this stuff. Re read all your posts on this page alone... And if you don't think your posts come off... In the wrong manner... You need to take a Longer step back.

I don't think he takes it seriously at all. It's not like he's frothing at the mouth and cussing up a storm.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by zopzop
I don't think he takes it seriously at all. It's not like he's frothing at the mouth and cussing up a storm.

Thank you. thumb up

People need to realise that this is just words and smilies we have here to express ourselves. I assure you i dont take this seriously at all laughing

All the speeches all the digs are all in the name of fun. eek!

WhiteWitchKing
Originally posted by zopzop
http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/4544/doomcelestials8.jpg

It doesn't saw the Celestial race as you claimed. I thought I was missing a page. All it says is the Celestials he fought are no more. There was five Celestials that he fought. And looking through every page, those were they only Celestials displayed. He fought a host, not the entire race.


Arishem, Ziran, Nezarr are the recognizable ones. The other two are hard to tell.

zopzop
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
It doesn't saw the Celestial race as you claimed. I thought I was missing a page. All it says is the Celestials he fought are no more. There was five Celestials that he fought. And looking through every page, those were they only Celestials displayed. He fought a host, not the entire race.


Arishem, Ziran, Nezarr are the recognizable ones. The other two are hard to tell.

You'd have a point if earlier that issue Doom didn't exterminate EVERY ALIEN RACE known to him. So when he says "the Celestials are no more" I take it that he means he wiped them out like he did all other alien races he encountered.

WhiteWitchKing
Originally posted by zopzop
You'd have a point if earlier that issue Doom didn't exterminate EVERY ALIEN RACE known to him. So when he says "the Celestials are no more" I take it that he means he wiped them out like he did all other alien races he encountered.

He examined six race. Then went on to take the gems from the Elders and save his mother. After that, a Celestial host shows up to fight him. Only five Celestials were shown throughout the book. It's never mentioned that he beat the entire race.

rotiart
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Thank you. thumb up

People need to realise that this is just words and smilies we have here to express ourselves. I assure you i dont take this seriously at all laughing

All the speeches all the digs are all in the name of fun. eek!

Take a farther step back

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by rotiart
Take a farther step back

Why? Because i ruffle your feathers? confused

Couldn't care less. I'm here to have fun and take part in debates that interest me.

Im not offensive and i dont speak in any manner to give the moderators a cause for concern so dont critique my demeanor, thats above your station. If you have an issue with the points i bring up, then take part in the debate. Other than that im just not hearing it. eek!

Maybe its you who takes these threads too seriously.

Now lets both stop interrupting the debate smile

Omega Vision
Originally posted by GalacticStorm


Im not offensive and i dont speak in any manner to give the moderators a cause for concern so dont critique my demeanor, thats above your station.


I wasn't aware you needed to be a mod to inform someone that he's acting like a jackass. whistle

TheTyrant
Infinity.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Omega Vision
I wasn't aware you needed to be a mod to inform someone that he's acting like a jackass. whistle

Im involved in a love/hate dynamic between one or two posters and its give and take, back and forth between both parties and has been for years. Its all a laugh and what makes this very enjoyable smile

However dont ignore accusations and digs thrown in my direction only to call me out for responding in kind.

If you dont know the overall context, if you cant be bothered to read all posts to maybe see what triggers a response, if you cant be objective, then mind your own and focus on the debate at hand.

And thats pretty much that eek!

Cubey
Originally posted by Mr Master
That's an alternate reality's universal aspect of Infinity, not 616 Infinity.
Infinity is a single conscience across the infinite realities, and that means,
even Infinity's alternates speak as though they are the "Totality" of Infinity,
we know this because of an on panel account concerning an alternate Eternity.

Now, if you can re-arrange and/or destroy the 616 Reality, you score big points,
because on panel accounts tells us 616 is the source of all.

Have to disagree with this. 616 Infinity =/= Multi-Infinity, who is the combined aspect of Infinity from all universes (including 616).

Omega Vision
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Im involved in a love/hate dynamic between one or two posters and its give and take, back and forth between both parties and has been for years. Its all a laugh and what makes this very enjoyable smile

However dont ignore accusations and digs thrown in my direction only to call me out for responding in kind.

If you dont know the overall context, if you cant be bothered to read all posts to maybe see what triggers a response, if you cant be objective, then mind your own and focus on the debate at hand.

And thats pretty much that eek!
Let me summarize all your posts so far:

"Blah, blah, blah, attempting to take the moral high ground, blah, blah, blah, random condescending remark or accusation, blah, blah, blah, still trying for the moral high ground. eek!"

So again, why does someone have to be a mod to tell you you're behaving like a jackass?

zopzop
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Let me summarize all your posts so far:

"Blah, blah, blah, attempting to take the moral high ground, blah, blah, blah, random condescending remark or accusation, blah, blah, blah, still trying for the moral high ground. eek!"

So again, why does someone have to be a mod to tell you you're behaving like a jackass?

Why are you bumping this thread and trolling him? Just let it go?

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Let me summarize all your posts so far:

"Blah, blah, blah, attempting to take the moral high ground, blah, blah, blah, random condescending remark or accusation, blah, blah, blah, still trying for the moral high ground. eek!"

So again, why does someone have to be a mod to tell you you're behaving like a jackass?

How ironic. laughing out loud

Instead of acknowledging the fact that my comments were actually a response to digs thrown my way, which you failed to do so because you couldn't be bothered to read the thread, you came in here talking your shit and even after your error was pointed out, pride no doubt stopped you from correcting yourself.

If ever there was reason to be called a "jackass" then you've earned it.

Now let me be one smile

You've been here for all of 5 mins kid. Unless you're going to be objective, don't concern with stuff that was going on years before your registration. Debate. I will no longer gain you relevance here by acknowledging any non debate related comments because as yet you are a non factor. eek!

Now back to the debate at hand.

Infinity is a universal abstract derivative from the Big Bang that is the Phoenix Force.

The infinity gems by current continuity are artifacts possessing universal scale power that tap into the their native universes Big Bang.

The Phoenix Force amongst many other things is the Big Bang turned sentient. Its greatest avatar can manipulate at an atomic level all that is 616 in the palm of her hand. That makes her leagues beyond the abstracts who are mere components of that universe and universal scale reality warpers who effectively just change the theme or at most the inner workings of the little universe Jean manipulates in her palm. The full Phoenix Force which the latest handbook entry regards as a multiversal nexus of psionic power is beyond such universal powers and trinkets.

Nihilist
Infinty ftw, Pheonix is vastly overated.

zopzop
Originally posted by Nihilist
Infinty ftw, Pheonix is vastly overated.

Some would say the same thing about Infinity. What has she done on panel, anywhere, that make people think she's more powerful than the Power Gem or the PF?

Nihilist
Originally posted by zopzop
Some would say the same thing about Infinity. What has she done on panel, anywhere, that make people think she's more powerful than the Power Gem or the PF? I could easily say the same to you about Pheonix, but one thing we do know everytime Infinity gets beat destroyed its by something far stronger than a EMP .

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Nihilist
I could easily say the same to you about Pheonix, but one thing we do know everytime Infinity gets beat destroyed its by something far stronger than a EMP .

Thats an illogical and quite ignorant statement.

The Phoenix Force never got defeated by an EMP. A distracted host who was unamped and vulnerable tending to Xorneto when he basically "stabbed her in the back".

The full Phoenix Force has never been defeated on panel ever. The firebird avatar is a representation of the sentience of the Force, not the whole Phoenix Force and then you also have hosts who can access the Forces power. The full abilities of the Force are unrevealed, but given that it can empower Jean to manipulate the atoms of 616, amputate and destroy timelines, when she doesnt even possess its full power, then you know the full PF is something way beyond universal.

The latest handbook refers to it as a multiversal nexus of psionic power.

Nihilist
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Thats an illogical and quite ignorant statement.

The Phoenix Force never got defeated by an EMP. A distracted host who was unamped and vulnerable tending to Xorneto when he basically "stabbed her in the back".

The full Phoenix Force has never been defeated on panel ever. The firebird avatar is a representation of the sentience of the Force, not the whole Phoenix Force and then you also have hosts who can access the Forces power. The full abilities of the Force are unrevealed, but given that it can empower Jean to manipulate the atoms of 616, amputate and destroy timelines, when she doesnt even possess its full power, then you know the full PF is something way beyond universal.

The latest handbook refers to it as a multiversal nexus of psionic power. Yeah whatever, never had any time for someone as arrogant as you who has always thought of him self being above everybody else, so in other words dont bother quoting me.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Nihilist
Yeah whatever, never had any time for someone as arrogant as you who has always thought of him self being above everybody else, so in other words dont bother quoting me.

So in other words, you've got me beat, i cant counter what you said credibly with on panel evidence, so im gonna take a swipe at you personally and exit the thread. embarrasment

That pretty much it? laughing

zopzop
Nihilist, a bad showing by a host doesn't make the PF itself trash.

We have Galactus and Death on panel saying the PF can destroy but then remake a universe. We have it's alternate universe showings over the decades where the writers make it clear it can easily destroy a universe. Then you have the example GS gave from it's bio stating it's a multiversal force.

We don't have any similar showing by Infinity or a single Infinity Gem.

Universal destruction on panel is so rare that aside from the HotI/UN it hasn't been done by a being under it's own power (aside from the PF).

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by zopzop
Nihilist, a bad showing by a host doesn't make the PF itself trash.

We have Galactus and Death on panel saying the PF can destroy but then remake a universe. We have it's alternate universe showings over the decades where the writers make it clear it can easily destroy a universe. Then you have the example GS gave from it's bio stating it's a multiversal force.

We don't have any similar showing by Infinity or a single Infinity Gem.

Universal destruction on panel is so rare that aside from the HotI/UN it hasn't been done by a being under it's own power (aside from the PF).

thumb up

Common sense and objectivity still exists on these forums.

Cosmic Cube, Demigawd, Illadelph, KG, Symmetric Chaos where you at? stick out tongue

WhiteWitchKing
Originally posted by zopzop

We have Galactus and Death on panel saying the PF can destroy but then remake a universe.

Que?

zopzop
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Que?

I believe it was Excalibur #25, the issue where Galactus came looking to separate the PF from Rachel Summers because he deemed it a threat.

Long story short, she willingly goes into his machine. As it's being separated from Rachel all the stars in the universe begin winking out of existence.

Death states that in his folly Galactus is doing the very thing he feared the Phoenix would do. Galactus acknowledges that the PF can indeed destroy "all that is". Death says, "Yes, and from that destruction, bring about new life. But you're meddling with tha and breaking the cosmic cycle."

This happened in the mainstream universe, 616.

TheTyrant
Originally posted by zopzop
I believe it was Excalibur #25, the issue where Galactus came looking to separate the PF from Rachel Summers because he deemed it a threat.

Long story short, she willingly goes into his machine. As it's being separated from Rachel all the stars in the universe begin winking out of existence.

Death states that in his folly Galactus is doing the very thing he feared the Phoenix would do. Galactus acknowledges that the PF can indeed destroy "all that is". Death says, "Yes, and from that destruction, bring about new life. But you're meddling with tha and breaking the cosmic cycle."

This happened in the mainstream universe, 616.

Phoenix Force would also have died along with the universe.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by TheTyrant
Phoenix Force would also have died along with the universe.

No, cos the Phoenix Force cannot die, it is pure life itself. It can only go from one state to another, it is by cannon totally indestructible.

Galactus' machine as stated in the issue and in the handbooks that refer to the issue would have torn the Force out of Rachel returning the portion of the Force that resided in Rachel back to the cosmos.

This process would have killed Phoenix(Rachel), but not the Force.

The gathered cosmics Roma, Death and the Watcher tell Galactus to watch how the stars fade as he tries to extract the Force from Rachel. They tell him yes the Phoenix can destroy the cosmos, but it can also rebirth it. They state that Phoenix and the Force are bound by nature so to destroy that bond was against the natural order. Hence the stars fading. They said that without the Phoenix Force there would be nothing but a lifeless void.

Never was the Force under any threat, only the Phoenix, the host.

zopzop
Originally posted by TheTyrant
Phoenix Force would also have died along with the universe.

And what exactly does "death" mean to the PF? It's very symbolism is REBIRTH from destruction.

WhiteWitchKing
Originally posted by zopzop
I believe it was Excalibur #25, the issue where Galactus came looking to separate the PF from Rachel Summers because he deemed it a threat.

Long story short, she willingly goes into his machine. As it's being separated from Rachel all the stars in the universe begin winking out of existence.

Death states that in his folly Galactus is doing the very thing he feared the Phoenix would do. Galactus acknowledges that the PF can indeed destroy "all that is". Death says, "Yes, and from that destruction, bring about new life. But you're meddling with tha and breaking the cosmic cycle."

This happened in the mainstream universe, 616.

He acknowledged that she can destroy a cosmos. It's also stated in that same page that she's one of the primal forces of the universe. What do you think Eternity and Infinity are? She's part of the natural order like Galactus, not above it. If anything, both Eternity and Infinity are regarded the top of the cosmic hierarchy and not Phoenix. Even with Excalibur, that's an acknowledgement she could destroy the cosmos not that the Phoenix Force has ever done so. And if we go by that and not actual feats, Galactus also possessed the power to destroy both the 616 and Negative Zone even after head been depleted of power in Annihilation. So you might as well add Phoenix to that list of people who never destroyed a universe in the mainstream universe. In that same issue, Galactus would've survive the destruction of the universe but acknowledges he'd starve without life to feast upon. Galactus is no Infinity, neither is Phoenix.

Originally posted by zopzop
And what exactly does "death" mean to the PF? It's very symbolism is REBIRTH from destruction.

Not according to you and Death. Galactus would kill her permanently and break the eternal pattern.

Death says, "Yes, and from that destruction, bring about new life. But you're meddling with tha and breaking the cosmic cycle."

TheTyrant
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
No, cos the Phoenix Force cannot die, it is pure life itself. It can only go from one state to another, it is by cannon totally indestructible.

Galactus' machine as stated in the issue and in the handbooks that refer to the issue would have torn the Force out of Rachel returning the portion of the Force that resided in Rachel back to the cosmos.

This process would have killed Phoenix(Rachel), but not the Force.

The gathered cosmics Roma, Death and the Watcher tell Galactus to watch how the stars fade as he tries to extract the Force from Rachel. They tell him yes the Phoenix can destroy the cosmos, but it can also rebirth it. They state that Phoenix and the Force are bound by nature so to destroy that bond was against the natural order. Hence the stars fading. They said that without the Phoenix Force there would be nothing but a lifeless void.

Never was the Force under any threat, only the Phoenix, the host.

Roma said that the Phoenix could not be seperated. Yet in her bio I think, it was said that she warned Galactus not to slay/eat/kill Phoenix II.

zopzop
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
He acknowledged that she can destroy a cosmos. It's also stated in that same page that she's one of the primal forces of the universe. What do you think Eternity and Infinity are? She's part of the natural order like Galactus, not above it. If anything, both Eternity and Infinity are regarded the top of the cosmic hierarchy and not Phoenix. Even with Excalibur, that's an acknowledgement she could destroy the cosmos not that the Phoenix Force has ever done so. And if we go by that and not actual feats, Galactus also possessed the power to destroy both the 616 and Negative Zone even after head been depleted of power in Annihilation. So you might as well add Phoenix to that list of people who never destroyed a universe in the mainstream universe. In that same issue, Galactus would've survive the destruction of the universe but acknowledges he'd starve without life to feast upon. Galactus is no Infinity, neither is Phoenix.

Quick question, by cosmos we mean the universe and everything in it right? Doesn't that include Eternity/Infinity and all the other abstracts? Not only can it destroy the cosmos it can RECREATE it.

And we have yet to see anyone/anywhere destroying a universe in Marvel without a plot device (HotI/UN).





By meddling with the PF and it's host (in which the host WILLINGLY subjected itself to Galactus' machine) who knows what havok Galactus was wrecking on the universe.

WhiteWitchKing
Originally posted by zopzop
Quick question, by cosmos we mean the universe and everything in it right? Doesn't that include Eternity/Infinity and all the other abstracts? Not only can it destroy the cosmos it can RECREATE it.

And we have yet to see anyone/anywhere destroying a universe in Marvel without a plot device (HotI/UN).

It means universe. But destroying the universe doesn't mean all abstracts are destroyed. Death and Oblivion would still exist. She may not gain more souls but those souls that have died are still under her domain. Oblivion is the void, he isn't dying either.

So what if it can recreate? That's it's role. It sparks and brings life back. But as the universe expands, time and space also expands, chaos and order comes into being. It sparks what's been there, it's not the TOAA/Creator y'know? It merely serves as a spark the reignites the universe after it's destruction. It's not the power of everything in the universe. In fact, the destruction of the universe happens when humanity reaches it's peak potential, able to replace the abstracts. That's all planned by the abstracts because it's the natural order. The Celestials carry out that mandate by planting the seeds of evolution into man, the ability to reach abstract level when the universe comes to an end. X-Men Forever tries to tie everything and explain Galan becoming Galactus. The Phoenix Force is part of the natural order and seems to end the universe when in time as part of the natural order. It has the power to do it but so does Eternity, Galactus, Infinity, and many others. Difference is, this seems to be Phoenix' job, and not the others that's all. She's not more powerful than them.



?Who knows what? Apparently Death does. That's why you quoted him/her saying that Galactus would end the natural cycle of destruction and rebirth if he destroyed the Phoenix. Willing or not, Phoenix would be killed by Galactus permanently.

Cubey
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The infinity gems by current continuity are artifacts possessing universal scale power that tap into the their native universes Big Bang.

The gems separately are not universal powers, from what I know.

But what's this about tapping into the Big Bang? They draw power from Nemesis.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by TheTyrant
Roma said that the Phoenix could not be seperated. Yet in her bio I think, it was said that she warned Galactus not to slay/eat/kill Phoenix II.

True. Thats what i said Roma said that it was against the natural order to separate the Force from Phoenix (Rachel) and in support of this as Galactus was doing so the stars were fading.

It was only ever Phoenix, (Rachel) that was in danger, not the Force itself smile

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Cubey
The gems separately are not universal powers, from what I know.

But what's this about tapping into the Big Bang? They draw power from Nemesis.

Not by current continuity.

Adam Warlock longtime gem wielder and onetime wielder of the Infinity Gauntlet and therefore a very reputable source said that the true source of the gems powers was the Big Bang-

http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/2628/shehulk80037.th.jpg

and the Champion longtime wielder of the Power Gems bio supported this by making reference to the gems drawing power from the Big Bang-

http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/7517/allnewofficialhandbooko.th.jpg

these are the most recent references to the Infinity Gems power source in current continuity. There has been a retcon.

GalacticStorm
And youre right cubey, the other gems arent universal powers individually, the Power Gem individually however is. It was stated in Thanos Quest that it is an infinite power reservoir and that the Champion just didnt know its true nature or how to use it properly. It is this gem that amps up all the others to universal scale powers.

However if by current continuity the gems tap into the Big Bang and the Phoenix Force is the sentient Big Bang, then the Power Gem is outclassed her.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
It means universe. But destroying the universe doesn't mean all abstracts are destroyed. Death and Oblivion would still exist. She may not gain more souls but those souls that have died are still under her domain. Oblivion is the void, he isn't dying either.

So what if it can recreate? That's it's role. It sparks and brings life back. But as the universe expands, time and space also expands, chaos and order comes into being. It sparks what's been there, it's not the TOAA/Creator y'know? It merely serves as a spark the reignites the universe after it's destruction. It's not the power of everything in the universe. In fact, the destruction of the universe happens when humanity reaches it's peak potential, able to replace the abstracts. That's all planned by the abstracts because it's the natural order. The Celestials carry out that mandate by planting the seeds of evolution into man, the ability to reach abstract level when the universe comes to an end. X-Men Forever tries to tie everything and explain Galan becoming Galactus. The Phoenix Force is part of the natural order and seems to end the universe when in time as part of the natural order. It has the power to do it but so does Eternity, Galactus, Infinity, and many others. Difference is, this seems to be Phoenix' job, and not the others that's all. She's not more powerful than them.

The Phoenix Force as stated on panel is the sum and substance of all that is. It is the life force from which the universe derives. Whether the Force is the being that creates reality or whatever is another story, however what is not debatable is that the Force is the Big Bang. It may not be the creator, and it itself was created, however it is those primal and all encompassing life energies from which reality derives.

So you can argue that Sise Neg absorbed all the energies of reality and created a universe, you can argue on panel that Genis blew apart reality resulting in the Big Bang. Howveer they never created those energies, in those creation events they merely catalysed energies that were already there. Energies that make up the Phoenix Force.

The Big Bang-

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/8905/fantasticfour52212.th.jpg


Mother of the stars-

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/950/classicxmen00828.th.jpg

Sum and substance of life-

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/9972/classicxmen00826.th.jpg

The well from which the stars draw power-

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/3356/fantasticfourannual2349.th.jpg

And as verified by Death and Roma and the Watcher, without the Force, there would be no universe, there would be a void

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/2769/excalibur02520.th.jpg

A point that further verifies that the Phoenix Force is the Big Bang from which reality derives.

It may not be the creator, but it is those very energies from which all reality springs forth. Thats the difference between it and Eternity and Infinity. Whereas they are concepts that embody time and space following the Big Bang, the Phoenix Force is those primal energies from which they are shaped from.


Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
?Who knows what? Apparently Death does. That's why you quoted him/her saying that Galactus would end the natural cycle of destruction and rebirth if he destroyed the Phoenix. Willing or not, Phoenix would be killed by Galactus permanently.

Phoenix would have been slayed. NOT the Phoenix Force. It was never under any threat, as stated by Galactus when he said the device was just returning the Force to the cosmos-

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/4056/excalibur02505.th.jpg

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Prove she can without bringing up a What If.


Jean Grey destroyed not just the Here Comes Tomorrow Universe, but she did something far greater, she effortlessly eradicated that timeline-

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/5818/nxm15420.th.jpg

That is far greater than blowing up a universe which is just reality at one specific point in time, she took out the entire timeline, severing it from the multiverse smile

A far far greater feat than destruction of a mere universe. wink

Mindset
Idk GS, I just don't know.

kgkg
Let's not destroy a universe in this thread.

Mindset
Mr Master isn't here, there's still time to save it.

WhiteWitchKing
Originally posted by Mindset
Mr Master isn't here, there's still time to save it.

Nah, there really isn't. The Phoenix hard-on is back with more nonsense. Well at least this one doesn't dress up the way Quanchi does as Thanos.

iceman24567
Going with the Phoenix force

Colossus-Big C
i think im going with the pheonix force after reading those scans

zopzop
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
It means universe. But destroying the universe doesn't mean all abstracts are destroyed. Death and Oblivion would still exist. She may not gain more souls but those souls that have died are still under her domain. Oblivion is the void, he isn't dying either.

So what if it can recreate? That's it's role. It sparks and brings life back. But as the universe expands, time and space also expands, chaos and order comes into being. It sparks what's been there, it's not the TOAA/Creator y'know? It merely serves as a spark the reignites the universe after it's destruction. It's not the power of everything in the universe. In fact, the destruction of the universe happens when humanity reaches it's peak potential, able to replace the abstracts. That's all planned by the abstracts because it's the natural order. The Celestials carry out that mandate by planting the seeds of evolution into man, the ability to reach abstract level when the universe comes to an end. X-Men Forever tries to tie everything and explain Galan becoming Galactus. The Phoenix Force is part of the natural order and seems to end the universe when in time as part of the natural order. It has the power to do it but so does Eternity, Galactus, Infinity, and many others. Difference is, this seems to be Phoenix' job, and not the others that's all. She's not more powerful than them.


It's more than just a universal resurrection force, it's also the sum total of all psionic energy past/present/future in the MULTIVERSE. It represents all life yet unborn. It's so far above abstracts like Infinity (who only represents physical space) it's not even funny.




After seeing the exact scans from Excalibur #25 from GS, I'm going to go ahead and disagree. The PF would not have been destroyed. Rachel on the other hand is a different story.

And like I keep repeating like a broken record, where is the "universal destruction using nothing but your own power" feat from anyone, anywhere aside from the PF?


@GalacticStorm

Dude if those Adam Warlock and FF scans are legit, this discussion is over. WOW!

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Mindset
Mr Master isn't here, there's still time to save it.

At the end of the day Mindset you are an individual, you have your own mind and you can read and comprehend.

You do not need Mr Master to come in here and tell you what to think.

I am not posting scans and then making assumptions and creating theories about vague artistic depictions or statements.

What i am doing is posting scans and stating literally what is explicitly stated to be the case in said scans. No supposition involved.

Reed says the Phoenix Force is the energies of creation, the Big Bang.

Death, the Watcher and Roma all confirm that reality would be a void without the Phoenix Force.

Kubik states that the stars of reality are all powered by the Phoenix Forces energies.

Stars being the biggest concentration of the Big Bangs power in reality.

The Phoenix Force itself states that it is the "mother of the stars" and the "sum and substance" of all that lives.

You have a genius level character and a variety of cosmic, omniscient characters and therefore reputable sources all stating the same thing, all painting the same picture.

The Phoenix Force is the energies of creation, the very Big Bang that reality derived from. It might not have created reality, it might have been created itself, however it is those very energies and it has them at its command.

illadelph12
nonefox

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by iceman24567
Going with the Phoenix force

thumb up

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Colossus-Big C a
i think im going with the pheonix force after reading those scans

thumb up

All people have to do is read and they'll see.

I dont make this stuff up. laughing out loud

I can provide scan after scan stating the Force is the Big Bang, the power source behind reality.

People just have a hard time believing it because the Force interacts so much on a human level via hosts that it appears less cosmic.

People also believe an appearance of the firebird equates to the full Phoenix Force when its not. It merely means the Forces sentience is in operation as opposed to a host tapping into the Forces power.

The Firebird as stated on panel is an avatar of the Force, a representation. It is NOT the full force and yet others in an attempt to demean the Force would try and make out otherwise:

The firebird is an avatar:

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/6177/excalibur050p17.th.jpg

What is this avatar of the Phoenix Force?

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/4342/phoenixresurrectionreve.th.jpg

A flame from the Big Bang smile

What does that say about the Phoenix Force itself?

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/8905/fantasticfour52212.th.jpg

It IS the Big Bang smile

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by illadelph12
nonefox

Yo! stick out tongue

Galan007
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
At the end of the day Mindset you are an individual, you have your own mind and you can read and comprehend.

You do not need Mr Master to come in here and tell you what to think.

I am not posting scans and then making assumptions and creating theories about vague artistic depictions or statements.

What i am doing is posting scans and stating literally what is explicitly stated to be the case in said scans. No supposition involved.

Reed says the Phoenix Force is the energies of creation, the Big Bang.

Death, the Watcher and Roma all confirm that reality would be a void without the Phoenix Force.

Kubik states that the stars of reality are all powered by the Phoenix Forces energies.

Stars being the biggest concentration of the Big Bangs power in reality.

The Phoenix Force itself states that it is the "mother of the stars" and the "sum and substance" of all that lives.

You have a genius level character and a variety of cosmic, omniscient characters and therefore reputable sources all stating the same thing, all painting the same picture.

The Phoenix Force is the energies of creation, the very Big Bang that reality derived from. It might not have created reality, it might have been created itself, however it is those very energies and it has them at its command. I thought Midset was saying that if Mr M posted, there would be no saving this thread from the pages long debate between you and he that followed..?

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by zopzop



@GalacticStorm

Dude if those Adam Warlock and FF scans are legit, this discussion is over. WOW!

Those scans are completely legit, they are from She Hulk volume 3 and i believe that was issue 8. They are the most recent references to the nature of the infinity gems. An on panel statement from a reputable character who wields the gems and once had omniscience through the gems thereby being the perfect character to know their nature. Plus an acknowledgement of this statement within the official handbooks.

This debate is very much over stick out tongue

As for WWK harping on about Phoenix not destroying a universe on panel, i showed this scan of Jean not just destroying a universe on panel, but the whole Here Comes Tomorrow timeline and casually at that-

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/5818/nxm15420.th.jpg

WWK's argument is weak.

Tha C-Master
Originally posted by Galan007
I thought Midset was saying that if Mr M posted, there would be no saving this thread from the pages long debate between you and he that followed..? Probably, this is GS though, he's rallying up his followers. big grin

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Galan007
I thought Midset was saying that if Mr M posted, there would be no saving this thread from the pages long debate between you and he that followed..?

Was he?

Misinterpretation. Damn laughing out loud

Sorry Mindset sad

There'll be no long debate because i dont need to. The scans say the points ive made explicitly. I have not assumed anything, only relayed exactly whats stated in them. Statements from various reputable characters, found in various different titles, released at different times over a decade.

Nothing can beat that.

He can come in here waffling about how the firebird avatar or distracted hosts got beat down, makes no difference to the Forces nature and its top feats.

He can come in here talking about how Sise Neg and Genis have on panel started creation events. Makes no difference to what the Phoenix Force is stated and depicted to be on panel, the very energies of the Big Bang. She may not be the creator of reality, but shes the living creation energies from which all reality derives from.

What can he bring to the table? Nothing relevant that we havent heard before. smile

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Probably, this is GS though, he's rallying up his followers. big grin

I aint seen your ass for years Mr Mitchell!

The original Master back in town.

Im tired of these young upstarts big grin

Galan007
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Was he?

Misinterpretation. Damn laughing out loud

Sorry Mindset sad

There'll be no long debate because i dont need to. The scans say the points ive made explicitly. I have not assumed anything, only relayed exactly whats stated in them. Statements from various reputable characters, found in various different titles, released at different times over a decade.

Nothing can beat that.

He can come in here waffling about how the firebird avatar or distracted hosts got beat down, makes no difference to the Forces nature and its top feats.

He can come in here talking about how Sise Neg and Genis have on panel started creation events. Makes no difference to what the Phoenix Force is stated and depicted to be on panel, the very energies of the Big Bang. She may not be the creator of reality, but shes the living creation energies from which all reality derives from.

What can he bring to the table? Nothing relevant that we havent heard before. smile I dunno. that's just what I thought he meant. wink

Tha C-Master
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I aint seen your ass for years Mr Mitchell!

The original Master back in town.

Im tired of these young upstarts big grin I've tried talking to you; I'm not on here much. I do a lil' on my small site and I run my company. Where have you been? You get married or something?

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
I've tried talking to you; I'm not on here much. I do a lil' on my small site and I run my company. Where have you been? You get married or something?

Ive been busy working and studying over the years. In the early stages of setting up my own company. Exciting times smile

Keep in touch bro. wink

Tha C-Master
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Ive been busy working and studying over the years. In the early stages of setting up my own company. Exciting times smile

Keep in touch bro. wink There's always that thing called the "pm"...

You're still in school? Oh and whatever happened to Demi?

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
There's always that thing called the "pm"...

You're still in school? Oh and whatever happened to Demi?

I've had many breaks in university due to getting a good job and being tempted away by money for many years, but im part time now and im finishing off my studies whilst i work.

I havent heard from Demi for years sad

I miss him and Whirlysplat. Those were the days. I need to get back in touch with Whirly cos ive moved near to where he does.

Nihilist
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
So in other words, you've got me beat, i cant counter what you said credibly with on panel evidence, so im gonna take a swipe at you personally and exit the thread. embarrasment

That pretty much it? laughing No i just think you come across a arrogant as*hole everytime you post, and everything you have posted in regards to the Pheonix was been blown apart by Mr Master countless times yet youstill spout the same crap.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Nihilist
No i just think you come across a arrogant as*hole everytime you post, and everything you have posted in regards to the Pheonix was been blown apart by Mr Master countless times yet youstill spout the same crap.

It really hasnt bro. laughing

Youre just a bitter, pressed individual who i have no time for.

Log off back into insignificance. embarrasment

Youre interrupting grown folks talk smokin'

Tha C-Master
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I've had many breaks in university due to getting a good job and being tempted away by money for many years, but im part time now and im finishing off my studies whilst i work.

I havent heard from Demi for years sad

I miss him and Whirlysplat. Those were the days. I need to get back in touch with Whirly cos ive moved near to where he does. Ah, you're a CEO, I figured as much.

I need to finish too, I've been in forever because I changed my mind so much, now I'm busy... Demi just fell off of the map entirely.

Have you seen whirly in person? He posts on here from time to time...

Nihilist
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
It really hasnt bro. laughing

Youre just a bitter, pressed individual who i have no time for.

Log off back into insignificance. embarrasment

Youre interrupting grown folks talk smokin' Die in a car crash.

Tha C-Master
Jeez you two lovebirds. stick out tongue Can't we all get along? I like you both.

rotiart
Take it to pms.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by rotiart
Take it to pms.

I've had quite enough of Nihilist's PMS for one day smile

the ninjak
Does the Phoenix Force have the potential to perceive/journey/manipulate other dimensions/realities as well? Or is it just limited to one universe at a time?

In other words is it a multidimensional entity?

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by the ninjak
Does the Phoenix Force have the potential to perceive/journey/manipulate other dimensions/realities as well? Or is it just limited to one universe at a time?

In other words is it a multidimensional entity?

The Force is a multiversal nexus of psionic power according to the latest handbook entry.

Jean casually amputated the future timeline of Here Comes Tomorrow from the multiverse, before materializing 616 in her palm atom by atom all in New X-men 154 so the White Crown Phoenix definitely has power over realities beyond 616 and if Jean just one of the avatars empowered by the Force in the multiverse can do that, then what does that say for the full Phoenix Force?

The abstracts, universe bound cosmic wars and manipulations are as insignificant as a sandbox of ants. wink

KuRuPT Thanosi
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The Force is a multiversal nexus of psionic power according to the latest handbook entry.

Jean casually amputated the future timeline of Here Comes Tomorrow from the multiverse, before materializing 616 in her palm atom by atom all in New X-men 154 so the White Crown Phoenix definitely has power over realities beyond 616 and if Jean just one of the avatars empowered by the Force in the multiverse can do that, then what does that say for the full Phoenix Force?

The abstracts, universe bound cosmic wars and manipulations are as insignificant as a sandbox of ants. wink

It must suck then that she wasn't able to do what you claim by herself huh? If she was able to do so she would've.. problem is she needed help and wasn't able to do so alone.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
It must suck then that she wasn't able to do what you claim by herself huh? If she was able to do so she would've.. problem is she needed help and wasn't able to do so alone.

Whatever are you mumbling about kid? wink

KuRuPT Thanosi
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Whatever are you mumbling about kid? wink

The "mutiversal" feat you're referring to. The atom by atom timeline feat.. did the phoenix do so alone?

Colossus-Big C
doesnt the powergem has all power that has ever existed and ever will?

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
The "mutiversal" feat you're referring to. The atom by atom timeline feat.. did the phoenix do so alone?


The feats ive referred to she did by herself yes.

I believe youre trying to be clever and youre referring to the re-energising of the M'kraan crystal feat and Mr Masters attempts to demote it by saying she was aided by the Xmen to a significant degree. Thats not what we're talking about here so unless you have any points to raise about the actual feats the rest of us are talking about, then id say our business here is pretty much concluded smile

WhiteWitchKing
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
The "mutiversal" feat you're referring to. The atom by atom timeline feat.. did the phoenix do so alone?

That was a multiversal feat? When an image of a universe twirled in her hand and she was told that Henry's (Beast) was broken heart Scott became succumbs to loneliness and lost of hope? What she did was psychically changed Scott's decision, pushing him to Emma. This stopped the future in Here Comes Tomorrow, fixing everything. This isn't above any of the abstracts to do.

http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/7845/phoenixnewxmen0002dq2.th.jpghttp://img155.imageshack.us/img155/8773/phoenixnewxmen0003ua7.th.jpghttp://img208.imageshack.us/img208/2885/phoenixnewxmen0005ws3.th.jpg

WhiteWitchKing
Originally posted by zopzop
It's more than just a universal resurrection force, it's also the sum total of all psionic energy past/present/future in the MULTIVERSE. It represents all life yet unborn. It's so far above abstracts like Infinity (who only represents physical space) it's not even funny.

Lol. Did you actually read books regarding Phoenix and the abstracts or are you getting this from scans? Who do you think Eternity is? He's not just time. He's been referred to as the universe; the multiverse, everything that was, is, or ever will be; and the representation of life itself. When Thanos gained the IG, he fought and usurp Eternity's position, him being the highest in the hierarchy, with the exception of LT. Infinity is just the otherside of the same coin. The Phoenix Force is mere abstract, that no one took notice throughout all the Infinity series. Even in Marvel The End, Thanos went after Eternity, Infinity, and LT. Where's the Phoenix again if you think it's so powerful? Who's ever admitted that the Phoenix is the source of the abstracts birth and power? If anything, everyone bows before Eternity, Infinity, and the Living Tribunal.



Lol. So what does Death mean when it says that Galactus will end the eternal pattern of life and rebirth?



Where is anything from the Phoenix Force that shows she's destroyed a universe? You care to show that?




laughing Only on this board would you get this nonsense. Because on Herochat and Comicbookresources, most of their posters have actually read these books.

The Infinity Being destroyed itself and brought about everything into existence including the Infinity Gems. The Phoenix Force remember itself being born and was emotionless till it touch Jean. Along with the Phoenix Force, the other abstracts like Eternity and Infinity came into being. That's the cycle that starts everything. The Force comes in as a ressurrection after a universe dies, reigniting a new big bang and bring a new universe to existence.

That's the Infinity Being.
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/nemesise.htm

Phoenix recalls how it came into existence.
http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/7606/phoenix00214lm.th.jpg

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
That was a multiversal feat? When an image of a universe twirled in her hand and she was told that Henry's (Beast) was broken heart Scott became succumbs to loneliness and lost of hope? What she did was psychically changed Scott's decision, pushing him to Emma. This stopped the future in Here Comes Tomorrow, fixing everything. This isn't above any of the abstracts to do.


Oh please WWK. I never said that was a multiversal feat. I was asked if the Phoenix had the power to affect other realities other than 616 and i said yes and referred to the amputation of the HCT timeline from the multiverse.

Kurupt Thanosi was the one not following the chain of discussion.

As for your description of what happened in those scans you missed out the one immediately prior where Jean amputates HCT from the multiverse as ive shown in this thread already:

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/5818/nxm15420.th.jpg

She then begins to materialize in her palm (via telekinetic control of all its atoms according to the Phoenix Consciousness) what we are later told is a universe:

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/5170/nxm15421.th.jpg

Before you predictably start trying to harp on about how she only did it in the crystal and could only do it in the crystal a lame tactic to try and impede a top tier fate let me stop you right there smile

Throughout the New X-men series the potential of Jeans tk power is hinted at.

Unparalleled telekinetic sensitivity is known as the manifestation of the Phoenix whereby her tk expands beyond all boundaries, it becomes another sense and she can feel through it:

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/5618/newxmen12811.th.jpg

http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/646/newxmen12812.th.jpg

http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/8458/newxmen12813.th.jpg

http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/5422/newxmen12814.th.jpg


She explains in further detail later in the series:

http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/4884/newxmen148pyrate12.th.jpg

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Logan speculates that Jean could create her own universe, but Jean said thats not the Phoenixes role.

http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/4884/newxmen148pyrate12.th.jpg

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

She has total telekinetic control of matter and energy able to convert a rocky asteroid into a spacecraft and power it with the suns energies:

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/3534/xm15002.th.jpg

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

GalacticStorm
In the HCT timeline Jean is able to atomize a species but slow down the "atomic deconstruction of one victim and keep his consciousness intact so she can study the process:

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/9247/newxmen153p03.th.jpg

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/4996/newxmen153p04.th.jpg

Sublime describes a Phoenix as the "ultimate mutation" and describes its power as "telekinetic godhood"

http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/7486/newxmen154herecomestomo.th.jpg

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

So throughout the series there is precedence for an unparalleled level of telekinesis from Jean.

We see the scope of it in the closing pages of New X-men when after subtracting Sublime from reality and BEFORE entering the crystal, she amputates the timeline from the multiverse. A feat that is actually probably greater than the infamous universe in the palm of the hand feat because she isnt just dealing with a single universe at a specific point of time, but a section of timeline which she casually and quite indifferently amputates as shown above.

So that in itself disproves any desperate theories that Jean needs to be in the crystal to manipulate such levels of matter and display such high level abilities. She amputated the timeline just before entering the crystal thereby providing precedence for her next feat....the materialization of reality into the palm of her hand. smile

zopzop
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Lol. Did you actually read books regarding Phoenix and the abstracts or are you getting this from scans? Who do you think Eternity is? He's not just time. He's been referred to as the universe; the multiverse, everything that was, is, or ever will be; and the representation of life itself. When Thanos gained the IG, he fought and usurp Eternity's position, him being the highest in the hierarchy, with the exception of LT. Infinity is just the otherside of the same coin. The Phoenix Force is mere abstract, that no one took notice throughout all the Infinity series. Even in Marvel The End, Thanos went after Eternity, Infinity, and LT. Where's the Phoenix again if you think it's so powerful? Who's ever admitted that the Phoenix is the source of the abstracts birth and power? If anything, everyone bows before Eternity, Infinity, and the Living Tribunal.

Where was the Goblin Force? Where was Seis-Neg? Where was Shuma-Gorath? Where was the Vishanti? Where were the Infinites? Where was the rest of the Celestial race? What does this prove? That Eon > Vishanti? Two Celestials > The Goblin Force?

Also the difference between Eternity (and all his titles) and the PF, is that we actually SEEN its power in action. In this and alternate universes. All we have to go by in Eternity/Infinity's case is hype.





Ask the writers? It's right there in black and white that he was only to separate the PF from it's host and return it to the cosmos. Because it's not like it's been hostless before or anything roll eyes (sarcastic)





I have in two separate alternate universes. Now show my any other of the abstracts you've mentioned doing the same. GS showed you her man-handling a universe in the palm of her hands.






The most RECENT info has the Gems drawing their power from the Big Bang (confirmed by Adam Warlock on panel and Champion's bio). We have Reed Richards calling the PF just another name for the Big Bang. Put two and two together.



Aww isn't that cute big grin When's its birthday? We'll throw it a surprise party.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Lol. Did you actually read books regarding Phoenix and the abstracts or are you getting this from scans? Who do you think Eternity is? He's not just time. He's been referred to as the universe; the multiverse, everything that was, is, or ever will be; and the representation of life itself. When Thanos gained the IG, he fought and usurp Eternity's position, him being the highest in the hierarchy, with the exception of LT. Infinity is just the otherside of the same coin. The Phoenix Force is mere abstract, that no one took notice throughout all the Infinity series. Even in Marvel The End, Thanos went after Eternity, Infinity, and LT. Where's the Phoenix again if you think it's so powerful? Who's ever admitted that the Phoenix is the source of the abstracts birth and power? If anything, everyone bows before Eternity, Infinity, and the Living Tribunal.



Lol. So what does Death mean when it says that Galactus will end the eternal pattern of life and rebirth?



Where is anything from the Phoenix Force that shows she's destroyed a universe? You care to show that?




laughing Only on this board would you get this nonsense. Because on Herochat and Comicbookresources, most of their posters have actually read these books.

The Infinity Being destroyed itself and brought about everything into existence including the Infinity Gems. The Phoenix Force remember itself being born and was emotionless till it touch Jean. Along with the Phoenix Force, the other abstracts like Eternity and Infinity came into being. That's the cycle that starts everything. The Force comes in as a ressurrection after a universe dies, reigniting a new big bang and bring a new universe to existence.

That's the Infinity Being.
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/nemesise.htm

Phoenix recalls how it came into existence.
http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/7606/phoenix00214lm.th.jpg

Youre wrong WWK.

The Phoenix Force isnt an abstract, it doesnt embody a concept, it is the living energies of the Big Bang. Thats the difference between it and the abstracts who dont have real presence in reality without M Bodies. The abstracts merely embody concepts that came into place following the Big Bang which gave them meaning and relevance.

Your scan of the Phoenix Force remembering how it came into being changes nothing. Has no effect on whats been said at all Did you not read the previous comments? Theres no doubt that the Phoenix Force was created, no ones arguing against that. However what the Phoenix Force is is the Big Bang. It was the formless primal energies of creation until it gained sentience as your scan shows smile

Reputable characters, a genius and a number of cosmics mark it out as the the life force behind the stars without which there would be a void. What filled the void with life, the stars the planets and so on? shifty

The Big Bang eek!

illadelph12
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Yo! stick out tongue

Sup GS? Been a long time homie.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by illadelph12
Sup GS? Been a long time homie.

All gd bro. What u up to these days? smile

Been too long. You need to come London sometime! big grin

Tha C-Master
I need to swing out there. Bring Demi and we'd be the 4 bruthas or something. shifty

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
I need to swing out there. Bring Demi and we'd be the 4 bruthas or something. shifty

I like that idea. Lets do this eek!

Tha C-Master
Well you're rich so put up the money and we'll do it. wink

WhiteWitchKing
Originally posted by zopzop
Where was the Goblin Force? Where was Seis-Neg? Where was Shuma-Gorath? Where was the Vishanti? Where were the Infinites? Where was the rest of the Celestial race? What does this prove? That Eon > Vishanti? Two Celestials > The Goblin Force?

Goblin Force didn't make it's appearance in a book till years later. Starlin's suppose to put in a character that didn't exist when he wrote the book?

Seis-Neg dispersed himself when he created the big bang. You expect him to show up when exploded himself to recreate the big bang and bring about the universe?

The Infinites came years later too.

The Celestial Race? Who needs the Celestial race when they're merely creations Eternity dreamed into existence. That first assault was a distract for Surfer to steal the gauntlet. Did you read the story?

It proves you don't know what you're talking about. Stop reading from scans. It proves that Eternity/Infinty is the highest of the cosmic order. Even Thanos mentions this after defeating all of Eternity's lackeys.




What power did it display again? You keep saying that but you've provided no feat. As for alternate universes, you seem to have a hard time with forum rules huh? You can't even grasp concept of What If books.

Hype? Eternity/Infinity beat Magus with power enough to merge two universes. Power greater than the 6 cosmic containment unit he had wielded. Phoenix fought who again? You mean the Goblin Force which consumed it? That time when it downed Galactus temporarily? Since you're bringing in What Ifs, why don't you bring in Cross Overs as feat proof as well. Why bother with forum rules.




http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_T_JachDW9ag/Ssy4x0GLEUI/AAAAAAAABvM/tcWFluM9eOw/s800/1254877686547.jpg

It's right there in the pages before that. He's trying to destroy the Force. Why would he return the Force to the cosmos? And why would seperating the Force from it's host destroy the cosmos and break the Eternal pattern? I know you get your info from mostly scans but do you ever stopped to think about your argument? If it's been hostless before, how come it didn't destroy the cosmos but would this time around?







What Ifs don't count. You don't understand forum rules huh? Lol. GS showed a picture of her holding a representation of the universe, not the actual universe. Jean than psychically fixed the future by changing Scott's mind and pushing him to Emma IN THE PAST. This prevents the dark outcome of Here Comes Tomorrow. Jeez, this is how you debate? Maybe if you read the book we'd have an actual debate. Kubik has held a universe in his hand. A Watcher stored a universe in his chest. All are below Eternity.



Lol. Because when the Infinity Being destroyed itself and exploded the universe he wasn't creating a Big Bang huh? Seis-Neg didn't recreate a big bang when he went back to the past huh? You think they just died and the cosmos grew like mold slowly? We have the Stranger calling it the Ressurrection Force. We have Death mention it as part of the eternal pattern of the universe. No where do we have it being placed as the creator or power source for everyone else. Because every time the universe is reborn, what sound and event do you think occurs if not a big bang? But it's not the being who created the first big bang that brought everything into existence. Hence why, no ones ever referred to it as the creator or the mother/source of all abstracts.



The same day as that of Eternity, Death, Oblivion, Infinity, and the other primal forces.

zopzop
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Goblin Force didn't make it's appearance in a book till years later. Starlin's suppose to put in a character that didn't exist when he wrote the book?

Seis-Neg dispersed himself when he created the big bang. You expect him to show up when exploded himself to recreate the big bang and bring about the universe?

The Infinites came years later too.

The Celestial Race? Who needs the Celestial race when they're merely creations Eternity dreamed into existence. That first assault was a distract for Surfer to steal the gauntlet. Did you read the story?

It proves you don't know what you're talking about. Stop reading from scans. It proves that Eternity/Infinty is the highest of the cosmic order. Even Thanos mentions this after defeating all of Eternity's lackeys.


You know very well what I mean. There were cosmics that were left out of the whole "Infinity XXX" mess. Where was the In-betweener? Oblivion? Infinity? The Vishanti? And others I'm sure I'm leaving out.

Just because an abstract/cosmic is left out of a storyline doesn't diminish their power or importance.






The forum rules don't mean jack when the WRITERS themselves say otherwise. The "What Ifs" are ALTERNATE universes that can and have affected 616 reality. See Quasar and the Starbrand. See the whole Time Quake fiasco.

You still cannot show me an example of universal level destruction (baring a plot device like the HotI and the UN) on panel because you're full of it. The PF has done it.

The only thing we've seen Eternity do in 616 is blow up a planet while trying to kill Thanos. We haven't seen Infinity do much of anything.




GS provided the scan. It says it right there in black and white. You got counter proof? Post it.








Kubik wrecked Beyonder's POCKET DIMENSION. The Watcher had a MICRO UNIVERSE in his chest. Not exactly the same thing.




The Watcher referred to the PF as second only to the Creator. The scans GS posted have both Adam Warlock and Champion saying the IG's are powered by the Big Bang. We have Reed saying the Big Bang is just another name for the PF. You figure it out.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
GS showed a picture of her holding a representation of the universe, not the actual universe. Jean than psychically fixed the future by changing Scott's mind and pushing him to Emma IN THE PAST. This prevents the dark outcome of Here Comes Tomorrow.

Nope. Clear as day its stated that Jean is holding the universe in her hand and is manipulating it in its entirety down to an atomic level. No mention of it being a representation is made and for what reason would the Phoenixes most powerful avatar be told its not easy and she needs to focus to generate a palm sized hologram? roll eyes (sarcastic)

Your argument reeks of desperation laughing

Immediately before Jean materialized the universe in the palm of her hand, she amputates the HCT timeline from the multiverse. A feat she does casually, an on panel NON WHAT IF feat of destruction far greater than the destruction of a mere universe. You have nothing. thumb down

Furthermore, this very feat gives precedence for the scope of power she displays in the M'kraan crystal, the materialization of 616 in her palm.

So your ridiculous argument that she could only do this feat in the crystal gets flushed down the toilet also smile


Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
The same day as that of Eternity, Death, Oblivion, Infinity, and the other primal forces.

Born at the same time but the difference is what they are comparatively. Phoenix is the actual living energies of the Big Bang whose sentience awakened after the creation event. The abstracts are concepts who were given meaning by the Big Bang, it put in place and created the very concepts that they embody.

So whilst the Phoenix may not have created the Big Bang and was in fact itself created by TOAA, it IS the Big Bang. No one is arguing that it is the creator so your persistence on saying that Eternity and the abstracts were created in this event is a redundant point. They are derivatives of the Big Bang. The Phoenix Force IS the Big Bang whose sentience was awakened in the event.

BIG difference big grin

rotiart
And nemesis was all things prior to the big bang... And gave way to all thing currently
And the power gem is his/hers power...
:-P
So the power gem wins

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by rotiart
And nemesis was all things prior to the big bang... And gave way to all thing currently
And the power gem is his/hers power...
:-P
So the power gem wins

Except there was a retcon which states that the gems power source is the Big Bang as i have shown on panel statements and handbook references of to verify smile

KuRuPT Thanosi
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Except there was a retcon which states that the gems power source is the Big Bang as i have shown on panel statements and handbook references of to verify smile

So explain why those references to what it is outweight the numerous references to it being from the I.B.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
So explain why those references to what it is outweight the numerous references to it being from the I.B.



Its a recent retcon thats happened in the last few years, therefore considering the original IG stories came out 20 years ago theres obviously going to be more references to the pre-retcon gems.

This stands to reason erm

rotiart
Sorry what page is this proof of yours on in this thread showing that the power gem draws it's power from the big bang?

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Not by current continuity.

Adam Warlock longtime gem wielder and onetime wielder of the Infinity Gauntlet and therefore a very reputable source said that the true source of the gems powers was the Big Bang-

http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/2628/shehulk80037.th.jpg

and the Champion longtime wielder of the Power Gems bio supported this by making reference to the gems drawing power from the Big Bang-

http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/7517/allnewofficialhandbooko.th.jpg

these are the most recent references to the Infinity Gems power source in current continuity. There has been a retcon.

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