Mystique vs Cassandra Cain

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King Castle
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/3998/261011-156746-mystique.jpg

vs

http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l80ai6GUQR1qc8dsno1_400.jpg

Omega Vision
Cass

jalek moye
What's considered Standard equipment for Mystique?

King Castle
guns

rotiart
Mystique.

Omega Vision
Originally posted by jalek moye
What's considered Standard equipment for Mystique?
IIRC she can make basic weapons with her shapeshifting.

Q99
Cassandra. She has fought shapeshifters before (at first they took her off guard, but then she studied 'em for awhile and got used to where to hit).

TricksterPriest
I'm undecided. I have no doubt Cassie is a better fighter, but how hard is it to hurt Mystique? Can she shift organs around, speed-heal, etc?

Though if Q99 is right and this isn't the first time Cassie has beaten shifters, that's telling.

Tazer
Yo.

only way Mystique beats her is by either a psyche-out OR a sneak atk; a straight up fight means Raven gets dat hiney *spanked!*




Tazer

rotiart
Mystique is an accomplished fighter, one of the best around. And she had shown her shapesifting can take varying degrees such as shiftin her molecules to phase through stuff before iirc

I'd honestly put her hand to hand up There with cable or wolverine.

King Castle
i wouldnt place her as high as those you mention.

maybe a 5 alongside someone like cable due to "his" fighting style but nowhere near some one like Logan.

besides she uses guns and knifes...

Existere
Mystique. The phasing scan is ambiguous, but she has plenty of super shifting feats regardless- her capacity to constantly shift vital organs around, increase her speed and strength to superhuman levels, cloak with her surroundings, grow extra limbs etc. give her an obvious advantage. Coupled with her own capable hand-to-hand abilities, she takes this.

Q99
Originally posted by TricksterPriest

Though if Q99 is right and this isn't the first time Cassie has beaten shifters, that's telling.

I should say "fought" rather than beat. The first time, she had trouble (but was beginning to read her before the end, and the shapeshifter, Gemini, had backup), but studied her movements, learned what she was protecting, watched videos of shapeshifters, etc.. The second time she fought Gemini's team, Gemini herself didn't show so no proper rematch.

Gemini, was more of an Elongated-Man type who could branch her arms out into a half-dozen tendrils to grab Cass, in addition to protecting organs, btw, better shapeshiving than 'Tique in other words.


Cass learns to read from their body movements what matters to them, and then strikes accordingly. Learn the weakness of the individual.


Mystique's pretty good in HtH, but I don't put her high enough to win even with her powers.

King Castle
Gemini usually takes the form of animals and yes she stretches but she isnt a competent fighter as she is more of a newb character and daughter to the original madame rouge.

i wouldnt compare her fighting skills nor experience to mystique lets not up play her abilities and ignore that she was easily knocked out by beast boys's right hook.

Cassandra isnt going to have the luxury to study Mystique prior to the fight nor would her learning on the fly really benefit her when she could be seriously injured by someone who can also fight as well as shapeshift

Q99
Originally posted by King Castle

i wouldnt compare her fighting skills nor experience to mystique lets not up play her abilities and ignore that she was easily knocked out by beast boys's right hook.

But her shapeshifting was much higher level than Mystique's, and she had the jump on Cass, and the only reason she won was Monseur Mallah as backup. Cass was still learning to read her during the fight before watching the videos.

After the videos, now she has experience reading the skillful Madame Rouge too.




But unless and until Mystique makes major changes, Cass's reading and skills will help her on the defense (and Cain's definitely faster in any case), and she'll know to look for how Mystique is using her shifting due to having seen other shifters in play and knowing what to look for.

Cassandra's not likely to get injured fast knowing she's a shapeshifter, and after a few exchanges she should have Mystique's number on where she's hiding her organs and such and go right for them.

TricksterPriest
Originally posted by Existere
Mystique. The phasing scan is ambiguous, but she has plenty of super shifting feats regardless- her capacity to constantly shift vital organs around, increase her speed and strength to superhuman levels, cloak with her surroundings, grow extra limbs etc. give her an obvious advantage. Coupled with her own capable hand-to-hand abilities, she takes this.

Even without phasing, this is what I was talking about. I don't know if Cassie can land a telling blow if Mystique keeps shifting around her form.

753
mistique has never phased through anything, she simply camouflaged herself by shifting into the exact visual patterns of the wall and leaning against it. She still takes this. it's as simple as getting close and quickly going sea urchin on her ass like the picture shows. she also has a low grade, but decent enough healing factor and superhuman stats.

Q99
As urchin-y as she is in that picture shouldn't be much problem. Her shapeshifting attacks are reasonably fast, but not so fast they can't be dodged.

Mystique's powers are IMO what makes this a fight, but are not enough for a win.

753
she can urchin further, trying to find a scan

Konton
Uh, Laura isn't putting down Mystique IMO. Logan was barely able to walk away when they last fought each other. Mystique's title series gave her a huge skill/damage soak boost.

Tazer
Yo.

yea, but we dont judge fights based ONLY on the "most recent showings, do we? I always thought we went by "averages"..........and to me Ravens "avg" is much lower than Cass's.




Tazer

Dum Dum Dugan
Originally posted by Konton
Uh, Laura isn't putting down Mystique IMO. Logan was barely able to walk away when they last fought each other. Mystique's title series gave her a huge skill/damage soak boost.
thsi is true, though she prep for him during some of the confrontations.


But your right she has high level damage soak and is very skilled.

Prep-Man
Cass overall.

King Castle
Originally posted by Q99
But her shapeshifting was much higher level than Mystique's, and she had the jump on Cass, and the only reason she won was Monseur Mallah as backup. Cass was still learning to read her during the fight before watching the videos.

After the videos, now she has experience reading the skillful Madame Rouge too.




But unless and until Mystique makes major changes, Cass's reading and skills will help her on the defense (and Cain's definitely faster in any case), and she'll know to look for how Mystique is using her shifting due to having seen other shifters in play and knowing what to look for.

Cassandra's not likely to get injured fast knowing she's a shapeshifter, and after a few exchanges she should have Mystique's number on where she's hiding her organs and such and go right for them. did cass also get thrown off by Slade as well?

i think there is a legitimate precedence that she would be unable to read Mystique with the above mention especially if we add her fight with Mad Dog.

If we look at what mystique brings to the table it is an uphill battle for cass.. Mystique has complete control of her body, does that sound like someone we know?

she is just as skilled at reading individuals able to tell when some one is being controlled or acting out of the norm..

she is also a highly skilled fighter who carries weapons.. i see this seriously locking mystique the majority of the win

Q99
Originally posted by King Castle
did cass also get thrown off by Slade as well?

Not exactly. He was hard to read (she uses a song analogy- he moves like a 'choir'), but she was able to dodge his stuff (point in fact, he's never scored a clear hit without using a trick). Tricky because he was throwing out a lot of readable information, in other words.

Gemini's shapeshifting attacks were something she didn't know at first, as was Monseur Mallah due to being a gorilla, but she learned them both.

If someone can't be 'read,' that just puts her at "skilled fighter with incredible reflexes who can see them coming," level. It's not crippling.





She could read Mad Dog. The trouble in that fight was pure exhaustion.

If she has trouble *at first*, she'll pick Mystique up pretty fast. Cass did thought-bubble that she was picking up Gemini's weak points as they fought the first time.




Ms. Cain's borders on telepathy, really. She can tell what people are thinking by looking at them. Knew a guy was thinking suicide by the look he had. Knows what it's like to die by watching someone die.




Cassandra uses her batarangs fairly often, especially against metahuman targets, not exactly unarmed only herself.

Existere
Originally posted by Tazer
Yo.

yea, but we dont judge fights based ONLY on the "most recent showings, do we? I always thought we went by "averages"..........and to me Ravens "avg" is much lower than Cass's.




Tazer Maybe her average prior to her powerup that completely amped and altered her powerset... since that point in time, however, her title series and subsequent fights against Wolverine have done a lot to set the "avg".

Mystique's damage soak is currently ridiculous. She's been running fast enough to keep up with helicopters, strong enough to kick down massive metal (steel? titanium? whatever) doors, with ability to amp her strength further, increase her limbs and constantly change enough aspects of her body to keep Cassie's body-reading-talent on its toes.

She's physically powerful enough and a skilled enough fighter to end this with a couple blows, and I don't see Cassie putting her down before that happens.

Tazer
Yo.

Originally posted by Existere
Maybe her average prior to her powerup that completely amped and altered her powerset... since that point in time, however, her title series and subsequent fights against Wolverine have done a lot to set the "avg".

Mystique's damage soak is currently ridiculous. She's been running fast enough to keep up with helicopters, strong enough to kick down massive metal (steel? titanium? whatever) doors, with ability to amp her strength further, increase her limbs and constantly change enough aspects of her body to keep Cassie's body-reading-talent on its toes.

She's physically powerful enough and a skilled enough fighter to end this with a couple blows, and I don't see Cassie putting her down before that happens.

not to discount any upgrades shes had, but her current pwr-lvl gets added to her overall performance/showings -avg, but it doesnt outright replace it.




Tazer

Existere
Originally posted by Tazer
Yo.



not to discount any upgrades shes had, but her current pwr-lvl gets added to her overall performance/showings -avg, but it doesnt outright replace it.




Tazer It certainly holds more weight. Given that she's now stronger and faster, situations prior in which skill alone couldn't help her are now less relevant. She can now both move fast enough to counter a certain punch, and use her skill to do it effectively.

Anyways, you're free to actually use examples to back up your argument, because currently I'm just guessing at what you would argue and need deconstructed.

Dum Dum Dugan
Originally posted by Tazer
Yo.



not to discount any upgrades shes had, but her current pwr-lvl gets added to her overall performance/showings -avg, but it doesnt outright replace it.




Tazer
Actaully it does. We take her at her current form. We don't factor in prior showings to her upgrades as if there the norm. Because we know for a fact she been upgraded. so why would we hold her to inferior standards?

TricksterPriest
Unless it's an existing weakness ala kryptonite, radion, or someone she's historically had a hard time with, ala Cyber and Wolverine.

srankmissingnin
This isn't even a fight. Once when Raven was impersonating Wolverine she had half a dozen bullet wounds visible on her face and she kept going like it was nothing, her damage soak is simple insurmountable for someone of Batgirl's caliber. There is a reason why Osborn brought several hundred soldiers, tanks and helicopters with him to taker her down by force... and there is a reason Mystique said he would have needed more men. Raven is on a completely different level than Cassandra Cain.

SamZED
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
This isn't even a fight. Once when Raven was impersonating Wolverine she had half a dozen bullet wounds visible on her face and she kept going like it was nothing, her damage soak is simple insurmountable for someone of Batgirl's caliber. There is a reason why Osborn brought several hundred soldiers, tanks and helicopters with him to taker her down by force... and there is a reason Mystique said he would have needed more men. Raven is on a completely different level than Cassandra Cain. Was that a dark reign story? What's the name of the book?

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by SamZED
Was that a dark reign story? What's the name of the book?

Yes. Dark X-Men: The Beginning, IIRC.

SamZED
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Yes. Dark X-Men: The Beginning, IIRC. Thanks! Gonna check it out.

Mindset
Originally posted by King Castle
i wouldnt place her as high as those you mention.

maybe a 5 alongside someone like cable due to "his" fighting style but nowhere near some one like Logan.

besides she uses guns and knifes... Shut up.

King Castle
go back to the off topic with that post.uggh

@ stilts

so who do you give it to?

Q99
So, Cass > Classic Mystique pretty solidly, but loses to Current Mystique due to much higher superhuman stats than she used to have?

753
Originally posted by Q99
So, Cass > Classic Mystique pretty solidly, but loses to Current Mystique due to much higher superhuman stats than she used to have? pretty much. more creative and offensive shapeshifting too

Prep-Man
If this is current Mystique it would be spite against Cass.

Mindset
Originally posted by King Castle
go back to the off topic with that post.uggh

@ stilts

so who do you give it to? Stop talking nonsense.

So Cable is nowhere near Logan skill in hth?

King Castle
just cause Cable might be a lvl 7 doesnt mean he is equal to logan fighting feats on panel nor that he possess the extensive knowledge as logan.

Cable can fight competently but he fights in a different manner to exploit his strength and fights a lot slower due to age now. he has had a hard time keeping up with opponents that were lvl 3 to 5 in the past due to the problems mention above.

Mindset
So beating DP in hth means he's nowhere close to Logan?

gotcha

King Castle
which time, during their sparring session?

i guess all it takes to be a lvl 7 fighter is to beat a level 5 and up fighter, em i right?

Mindset
facepalm

rotiart
Cables problems were due in part I would think o the technoorganic virus that took up a great deal of nathans concentration to keep in check. How dare you insinuate anything other than that!!



King Castle
he's old and didnt show the same h2h reaction time as Wolvie and uses his techno durability to capitalize on defense not fighting skills which are lacking.. He has even stated he is old and cant keep up anymore with certain individuals and having to fight dirty to compensate.

hell, Bishop has bn shown to be a better fighter than Cable but it doesnt mean i would give him lvl 5-7 fighting skills on it.

i would place him more on lvl 4 fighting skills..sneer

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by King Castle
go back to the off topic with that post.uggh

@ stilts

so who do you give it to?

Mystique.

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