Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

What ever version of the characters you want, at full power, versus one another.

GO!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjb9Kxb1TFI#t=50s

EDIT: Also, this thread has been done multiple times.

Bowser for obvious reasons.

Bowser has survived black holes in at least two games. haermm

Both because Nintendo does not understand how black holes work so...not too impressive.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Both because Nintendo does not understand how black holes work so...not too impressive. I highly doubt no one at Nintendo has any idea that blackholes = bad for you.

Super mario galaxy? are the stars not crying little things as big as a mans chest with faces? not too interested about the black hole thing, I am probably more interested in:

Originally posted by The Scenario
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjb9Kxb1TFI#t=50s

EDIT: Also, this thread has been done multiple times.


Whats happening here?

Probably nothing Kain cannot bypass easily.

No, those are lumas, the black hole in question nommed on a galaxy or more. He tanks another black hole in Bowser's Inside Story.

Show me these black holes please, I have seen what passes for a planet, a sun etc in Mario galaxy, I want to see what passes for a black hole in galaxy and bowsers inside story.

Not that it will help him.

Edit

Apprently the Galaxies themselves are not really galaxies:



So I would say the whole "black hole nommed a galaxy or more" leaves out a lot of important information.

QXGfjyPmCac

1:45+

It consumed the entirety of the final galaxy. It's plenty enough to keep Kain from ever dreaming of hurting him.

The pull of that galaxy seems to be equel to the pull of a giant faucet plug or something because Mario seems to just be floaitng there so considering it cannot even suck down a man its overall mass must be tiny, if it was high its gravity should have ripped him into piecies or at least in the cartoon world swallowed him quickly but mario seemed at ease. You could say the same fro all those tiny little planetoids I guess.

Also I doubt anyone tanked anything, anyone going into the black hole seems to be saved/reverted to normal by whoever that fairy thing is.

Either way I still find it amusing when you sit there argueing a pure physical feat against Kain who you should know by now hardly has nothing but physical strength at his disposal, I could probably choose any spell from his list and it would defeat bowser, mind control, rip out his soul etc.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
I highly doubt no one at Nintendo has any idea that blackholes = bad for you.

In Galaxy, it seemed like they thought a black hole was a big pocket.

In Inside Story, Nintendo was under the impression you could grab onto the sides of a black hole.

I think its clear these blackholes are nothing alike to the real thing, same with the planetoids and the suns/stars. You cannot argue from the perspective of how a real blackhole, sun, planet is measured when thats not the case.

Psuado black hole, thats all.

And the yellow/green and red guy with claws wins.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Whats happening here?

Probably nothing Kain cannot bypass easily.

That is Bowser catching and holding a massive iron ball. I remember BloodRain and I both calc'd it being in excess of 6000 tons. Somewhere on this page.

Mario and Luigi and amped his arms for the throw, but catching and supporting the weight is all base Bowser.

Well at the moment the math is unimportant to me, if Bowser lands a hit on Kain he can throw him through the air. Not too useful and he struggled too.

So Bowser has no special abilities you can bring up? only strength or durability?

TBH energy wise Bowers strength is literally a thousandfold that of Kain's.

No other special abilities 'sides flame breath, teleportation and apparently a limited gravity control come to mind. Though obd says his speed is between Kain's and supersonic... didn't see that coming, but disagreeable as consistently his speed is meant to be on par to below Mario's.

His SMG/2 feats would be with Grand Stars powers.

A black hole is a black hole. From my limited understanding of them, size doesn't really matter, since what defines a black hole is a gravitational pull strong enough to pull in light.

Except in this case they either can't pull in the castle surrounding it and gets grabbed by its evet horizon, or one that cant pull in debris which is clearly in its grip.

Originally posted by BloodRain
TBH energy wise Bowers strength is literally a thousandfold that of Kain's.

No other special abilities 'sides flame breath, teleportation and apparently a limited gravity control come to mind. Though obd says his speed is between Kain's and supersonic... didn't see that coming, but disagreeable as consistently his speed is meant to be on par to below Mario's.

His SMG/2 feats would be with Grand Stars powers.

He needs more strength than Kains, or even a thousand times to damage Kain however. Wheras Kains strength is irrelevent, his powers supercede physical durability or outer shells by assaulting whats inside your body (blood) or inside your spirit (soul).

Although, I would like to see your calculation on Bowsers potential energy. For one thing, I would like to see his consist speed, and how he usually implements his strength. If his full body can just about hold up this ball which you claim to be 6k tons (not sure how you got that but I will argue that if I dont like it later) and then he implements a slow attack (marios speed?) with a fist (a square foot of area perhaps? not sure how big he is, or his hands in this match, some bowsers are different) then we can find out how much energy he can implement in one punch (one hand).

Once we have that info, we can argue from there, although I will be away from tomorrow until sunday night/monday morning due to work so if you want to argue this you have a fair amount of time.

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
A black hole is a black hole. From my limited understanding of them, size doesn't really matter, since what defines a black hole is a gravitational pull strong enough to pull in light.

It matters, trust me. Also I am not sure if light was even absorbed because we can clearly see the black hole. It should be completly invisible.

Stop nitpicking every little detail. Nihilism will not find its way into every thread because it makes you feel better in the inside to tear at Nintendo games.

Yes because thats a "little" detail. It sort of destroys the claim its even a real black hole, its probably got the strength of thousand tons units, give or take. The planetoids it can suck in just about (it took it a damn long time) were tiny and even mario without seemingly resisting just floated there. Further, theres no indication anyone tanked anything, the whole thing ended with a magic fairy teleporting them somewhere (mushroom kingdom?).

I'm sorry that Nintendo cannot program all of the galaxies in Super Mario Galaxy to be the actual size, or an accurate representation of the size, of a galaxy. I also apologize for the stars, the planets, and everything else that cannot be the perfect representation.

The explosion that created the black hole originated from under Bowser's feet. He felt it. And he felt the black hole, because it was another two or so minutes before the Lumas put a stop to the Black Hole.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Well at the moment the math is unimportant to me, if Bowser lands a hit on Kain he can throw him through the air. Not too useful and he struggled too.

So Bowser has no special abilities you can bring up? only strength or durability?

Yes, Bowser struggled with a giant iron ball larger and denser than anything Kain or Raziel has ever touched. He's still much, much stronger and more durable than Kain. I imagine a punch from Bowser would break Kain.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naAV-QDF1Ys#t=6m

Fire breath sufficient to burn multiple trees to ash in seconds. In Galaxy he teleports, launches shock waves, and does whatever this is.

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
I'm sorry that Nintendo cannot program all of the galaxies in Super Mario Galaxy to be the actual size, or an accurate representation of the size, of a galaxy. I also apologize for the stars, the planets, and everything else that cannot be the perfect representation.

The explosion that created the black hole originated from under Bowser's feet. He felt it. And he felt the black hole, because it was another two or so minutes before the Lumas put a stop to the Black Hole.

They dont have to be, its a game with twisted rules, colourful little characters that make it hellava lot of fun!

I dont know what anyone felt, the explosion just seemed to be a flash of light, from what was essentially a giant fireball. Not even sure what this thing is, a blackhole? not likely, I would go with the 6k tons on his back being a better feat, less ambigious.


Originally posted by The Scenario
Yes, Bowser struggled with a giant iron ball larger and denser than anything Kain or Raziel has ever touched. He's still much, much stronger and more durable than Kain. I imagine a punch from Bowser would break Kain.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naAV-QDF1Ys#t=6m

Fire breath sufficient to burn multiple trees to ash in seconds. In Galaxy he teleports, launches shock waves, and does whatever this is.


More durable, based on? You imagine? thats some imagination, I think I will wait for the calculations.

Ok, nothing worth mentioning then.

Originally posted by Burning thought
They dont have to be, its a game with twisted rules, colourful little characters that make it hellava lot of fun!

I dont know what anyone felt, the explosion just seemed to be a flash of light, from what was essentially a giant fireball. Not even sure what this thing is, a blackhole? not likely, I would go with the 6k tons on his back being a better feat, less ambigious.

It is indeed a fun game.

Nitpicking. Stop it.

I can "nitpick" all I like, although argueing the force of a large ball lof fire, the discrepency between possibly countless gravity and just thousands of tons is hardly "nit picking".

Check the link Scenario posted for the weight. Speed is, from that vid, around 10m/s, 272MJ to Kain's 272KJ. And he has claws and usually used them. FYI that's the same claw tip as Raziel's but with 1,000 times the force behind it, the strength difference outweighs Raziel's claw to Reaver difference. AKA, sufficient strength to put Kain in the hurt locker.
Dunno about speed, but Bowser would need to be 100m/s+ (if his time powers are 1/5) to have the advantage. If he is supersonic then he greatly has the speed advantage.

Not really gonna argue on this much. If Bowser can get his hands on Kain he wins, if not than probably Kain if his powers work against him.

They dont look like raziels claws, infact they often look like small nails, although I would like to see how he consistently attacks please, when he uses his hands. Raziel uses a large trio of claws instead of swords in most cases, not sure how bowser uses his nails. Bowser would have to be proven to move at least at raziels speed and have claws of similiar dimensions. His technique is important because his entire body is 6k tons of strength, he would have to jump into the attack like Raziel did to Kain to match as well, if he does not jump into claw slashes then we have different figuires.

http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/characters/images/bowser/bowser.jpg



Chances of bowser getting his hands on Kain is pretty much zero anyway.

Size is also a factor, if Bowser is large and bulky in this thread, then his claws scale, as do the surface area they are striking.

Originally posted by Burning thought
More durable, based on? You imagine? thats some imagination, I think I will wait for the calculations.

Based on catching a cannonball larger than himself that likely weighs 6000 tons? That's a bit more than anything Kain has ever tanked, and would likely crush Kain in the same situation. Bowser breaks boulders and throws iron balls with casual punches, still quite superior to Kain's physical stats.



Fire being one of Kain's main weaknesses, and Bowser's most basic weapon. Also, Galaxy Bowser is able to use a Power/Grand Star to grow giant at will and summon meteors. And can fly.



The supersonic thing comes from Super Paper Mario and these enemies that attack with focused blasts of sound. All characters are capable of outrunning this.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Based on catching a cannonball larger than himself that likely weighs 6000 tons? That's a bit more than anything Kain has ever tanked, and would likely crush Kain in the same situation. Bowser breaks boulders and throws iron balls with casual punches, still quite superior to Kain's physical stats.



Fire being one of Kain's main weaknesses, and Bowser's most basic weapon. Also, Galaxy Bowser is able to use a Power/Grand Star to grow giant at will and summon meteors. And can fly.



The supersonic thing comes from Super Paper Mario and these enemies that attack with focused blasts of sound. All characters are capable of outrunning this.

Wrong in all but the overall body strength.

I think fire is anyones weakness if it can burn them, but you cannot melt things of high durability without enough heat. If you think Kains standing around to take a breath of fire to the face then your not argueing from a clear perspective.

The whole supersonic thing seems a reach based on gameplay mechanics.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Wrong in all but the overall body strength.

The giant iron ball failed to harm him in any way. The sheer amount of force behind that is much greater than anything Kain has faced.



Vampires are specifically weak to fire and it tends to kill them near immediately. Soul Reaver established this pretty well. Bowser's fire attacks are decent AoE and he has multiple styles, including just shooting fireballs everywhere or going giant to make the blast huge.



Sure.

Originally posted by The Scenario
The giant iron ball failed to harm him in any way. The sheer amount of force behind that is much greater than anything Kain has faced.



Vampires are specifically weak to fire and it tends to kill them near immediately. Soul Reaver established this pretty well. Bowser's fire attacks are decent AoE and he has multiple styles, including just shooting fireballs everywhere or going giant to make the blast huge.



Sure.

Including 9.7 million tons PSI?

Not so sure about that, for example Raziel had to find a huge furnace to burn Dumah, you cant just set them alight and furthermore Kain is more durable than most if not all vampires, the reason it is better than most other forms of defeating them is because they cannot come back from it so easily, normal wounds they can heal from almost instantly (especially Kain) but fire? burns them up.

I laughed. You ****ed up your math pretty badly there, boyo.

..Wha? Claws are claws. Kain's durability in your view is claw tips + 272,155 J, Bowser has claw tips + 272,155,422 J. Therefore he bypasses his best durability feat.

How a person utilizes their strength is their issues, no way to suggest that he cant put all his strength into a strike.

Not really, nothing says the tips dont stay sharp depending on size... nor is he that large in this thread.


Ahh right, I remember the thread for that. If not that then what is Bowser's speed?

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
I laughed. You ****ed up your math pretty badly there, boyo.

How do you know? youve not even seen my math.


Originally posted by BloodRain
..Wha? Claws are claws. Kain's durability in your view is claw tips + 272,155 J, Bowser has claw tips + 272,155,422 J. Therefore he bypasses his best durability feat.

How a person utilizes their strength is their issues, no way to suggest that he cant put all his strength into a strike.

Not really, nothing says the tips dont stay sharp depending on size... nor is he that large in this thread.


Ahh right, I remember the thread for that. If not that then what is Bowser's speed?

Well no, claws are either one or two with an area of a blade edge or like Bowser seems to be, larger, thicker etc.

I will have to see him use it the same way.

You miss the point, if your large the surface area is larger. Like how Chronos has a huge area across his finger nails, comapred to mine.

Originally posted by Burning thought
How do you know? youve not even seen my math. That's part of how I know. You've never once shown your work and I can't get that number to occur given Kain/Raz's strength if I /try/.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Including 9.7 million tons PSI?

Where did that come from?



Zephon (sp?) got killed by having flaming eggs thrown at him. He caught fire and just died. People aren't usually that flammable, but I guess Vampires aren't exactly people, as they seem to catch on fire like paper.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
That's part of how I know. You've never once shown your work and I can't get that number to occur given Kain/Raz's strength if I /try/.

Wrong, I have shown it. Changed it, tried different things etc. You not seeing it does not change this.


Originally posted by The Scenario
Where did that come from?



Zephon (sp?) got killed by having flaming eggs thrown at him. He caught fire and just died. People aren't usually that flammable, but I guess Vampires aren't exactly people, as they seem to catch on fire like paper.


Raziel.


Zephon has no durability feats. Hasty generalisation, Zephon is not the entire race, hence why I gave the example of Dumah, Zephon is very different in physiology to Kain.

Post it. :>

I will monday, when I am not about to go away on a call for work. Its mostly in the thread here:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f85/t549872.html

Originally posted by Burning thought
Raziel.


Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Post it. :>




Dumah has no durability feats. In fact, he was killed by humans with stakes that pierced him rather easily. Zephon is still a Vampire, can you prove that Dumah is resistant to fire in some way? So far, Vampires tend to to burn very easily.

How do you know how "easy" it was to pierce him? also there are torches iirc all around the area, yet Raziel had to use a furnace to burn him. Zephons a vampire? so? hes horribly mutated down a devolutionary line greatly diverse from not only his other mutated brothers, but even further from the more pristine Kain.

"so far"? what are you talking about? they burn just like anything else.


Math:

I have a different set of workings, although in the other thread for the sake of it I conceded to certain measurements because it hardly mattered, so here is my math, on bloodrains figuires:

Razil's are like a blade? His claws are sharp for his attacks = small area.

Meh.

Cept his claws aren't, nor is he that large.

-----------------------------

Ya got the mass wrong, its 272155.422 kg / 300 tons, and the velocity is 2m/s.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Razil's are like a blade? His claws are sharp for his attacks = small area.

Meh.

Cept his claws aren't, nor is he that large.

-----------------------------

Ya got the mass wrong, its 272155.422 kg / 300 tons, and the velocity is 2m/s.

Well i dont know how big this bowser is, some bowsers look huge to me. He also has many claws to spread force over, not just two meaning his pressure would be divided more. His power may be halved, 2/4.

So I need to see him moving at speeds (same bowsers please) equel to Raz, using his whole body, similiar masses etc, then I can argue from there surface area. If he cannot best Raziel by a good 10% then I dont see the point.

not that this is important, argueing for the sake of it because hes not hitting Kain.

300 tons was the weight of the frustum you calculated, not the force Raziel used to move it which was greater. 2m/s was the speed the frustum was moving, Raziel moved further than 2m/s or rather, his body and further his arms did.

2m tall.

No way to suggest that he can't put full force into his strikes. Like said, Bowers J output is much higher, to say he cant produce that force as he chooses is an odd way to go.

Hoping someone else does the speed, but he has teleporting, so yay for something.

300 tons to kg * v of 2m/s = KE/ 2 = J. Youre joules are 67x the actual amount.

Originally posted by BloodRain
2m tall.

No way to suggest that he can't put full force into his strikes. Like said, Bowers J output is much higher, to say he cant produce that force as he chooses is an odd way to go.

Hoping someone else does the speed, but he has teleporting, so yay for something.

300 tons to kg * v of 2m/s = KE/ 2 = J. Youre joules are 67x the actual amount.

Why would you be able to put your whole bodies energy into one punch? unless he, as I said leapt, using his legs/body and struck Kain with both hands?

If he teleports then he loses the extra force from movement, so I would suggest not, especially if he teleports into Kains time distortion.

Did you ignore me? I said the mass is not 300 tons, you dont take the base weight of an object someone is moving as their strength. You have to use the amount equel to the force they exerted on said object. This calculation is Raziel striking Kain, not Raziel moving obelisk.

I think this is the figuire your talking about:

Do you know the exact anatomy and mechanics of the body, more importantly Raziel's body, to know how much of his MaxJ he put into one of his hands for the attack?

Don't take much to throw an arm.

The force he exerted was his joules, the joules came from the weight of the obelisk * the speed2. Thats the maximum force Raziel can push on Kain. I'm assuming either the velocity in that post is either the speed you think he lifted it or his strike speed. If the former its wrong, if the latter we don't do that.

Originally posted by Burning thought
How do you know how "easy" it was to pierce him? also there are torches iirc all around the area, yet Raziel had to use a furnace to burn him. Zephons a vampire? so? hes horribly mutated down a devolutionary line greatly diverse from not only his other mutated brothers, but even further from the more pristine Kain.

Well, it wasn't hard, since humans could do it with human strength.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyqnHc_syM4

There aren't that many torches, but how the heck would Raziel even use them? Zephon retains the weaknesses vampires are stated to have, regardless of their individual purity. The fact he caught fire is unsurprising.



They don't, really. Last time I checked, humans don't burst into flame when they touch fire. Vampires do, even sunlights effects are just catching on fire.



I'll let someone else handle this, just because I don't feel like math right now. Suffice to say it looks sorta like BS.

Yo Scene, whats your opinion on Bowser's or Mario's speed?

Originally posted by The Scenario
Well, it wasn't hard, since humans could do it with human strength.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyqnHc_syM4

There aren't that many torches, but how the heck would Raziel even use them? Zephon retains the weaknesses vampires are stated to have, regardless of their individual purity. The fact he caught fire is unsurprising.



They don't, really. Last time I checked, humans don't burst into flame when they touch fire. Vampires do, even sunlights effects are just catching on fire.



I'll let someone else handle this, just because I don't feel like math right now. Suffice to say it looks sorta like BS.

So you assume it was just speared in him by hand?

Pick them up and throw them or something? he picks up torches often as weapons. Some vampires gain immunities (Rahab to water) some gain weaknesses (melchiah is falling apart), it seems Zephon burns even more easily.

Neither do vampires iirc, most canon showings have Raziel launching large cacoons of fire, I doubt a human would stand unfazed at raziel launching large flammable objects at them.

You dont seem to even know what it is, yet you claim it BS, tbh I think the math concerning the ball of iron is BS too but it does not matter.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Do you know the exact anatomy and mechanics of the body, more importantly Raziel's body, to know how much of his MaxJ he put into one of his hands for the attack?

Don't take much to throw an arm.

The force he exerted was his joules, the joules came from the weight of the obelisk * the speed2. Thats the maximum force Raziel can push on Kain. I'm assuming either the velocity in that post is either the speed you think he lifted it or his strike speed. If the former its wrong, if the latter we don't do that.

No, I simply argue that if you only punched using one arm, then your whole body cannot be in the punch while if you use your whole body, then your whole body is in the punch, save perhaps one arm.

Well then its that one arm that we can argue.

It came from the distance the obelisk moved, and the speed it moved. You then take that figuire, which is Raziels strength as the mass (plus raziels weight). The distance this time however is raziels arm. Give or take a few measurements, the figuires wont change much.

No one throws a punch withought putting thire body into it, why cant Bowser? Nore to the point is that how he, or any character, exerts their force in a strike is unknown. At most you can half it for a one arm strike, but the same will then be applied to Raziel... so nothing really changes.

Oh, no. That was for the teleport.

The V comes from his lift speed, not its fall speed. Bit of a mistake there; Raziel's MaxJ (liking the sound of it) from the flip cant be added further to the speed of a strike, his maximum output cant be increased. Raziel can not produce more than 272 KJ, and thats the force behind his strike.

Thats why I dont use a 10GJ*5000m/s2 strengh for Dante.

Originally posted by Burning thought
So you assume it was just speared in him by hand?

You have an alternative theory and proof to back it up? Because as it stands, we know that Dumah was speared, most likely by humans.



Might go to gameplay mechanics, then. Dunno if any of the torches in fight were even removable. Still, exposing Dumah to fire killed him almost instantly and he caught fire.



But they wouldn't exactly burst into flames like vampires do. By the way, the one on fire there was an adult Dumahim, so not particularly impressive.



I can see what you did, though, and it doesn't look particularly reliable. I guess it doesn't really matter, though, since even a cursory glance tells you that Bowser is much stronger than Raziel seeing as what he did blows anything Raziel did out of the water and he's got claws, too. Plus fire.

Originally posted by The Scenario
You have an alternative theory and proof to back it up? Because as it stands, we know that Dumah was speared, most likely by humans.



Might go to gameplay mechanics, then. Dunno if any of the torches in fight were even removable. Still, exposing Dumah to fire killed him almost instantly and he caught fire.



But they wouldn't exactly burst into flames like vampires do. By the way, the one on fire there was an adult Dumahim, so not particularly impressive.



I can see what you did, though, and it doesn't look particularly reliable. I guess it doesn't really matter, though, since even a cursory glance tells you that Bowser is much stronger than Raziel seeing as what he did blows anything Raziel did out of the water and he's got claws, too. Plus fire.

apprently now my theory needs proof and yours does not? I never disputed it was done by humans, although I can give a suggestion not based on ignorance (you barely know the series) but on a vast educated knowledge on the subject, you see considering how even much older human civilisations used cannons, arbelists, ballistae as well iirc its fair to say its more logical that normal men did not take down the enormous Dumah simply by hand but used either an artifact like Moebius' staff or a mechanism. My logical deduction (not just because its from me, a better source on LoK) sounds better, due to the fact highwe tech humans who have access to flamethrowers are not going to take up spears by hand to fight Dumah.

Youve also used a red herring, Dumahs durability is irrelevent.

Well with about 700 tons of strength and sharp claws I like to see how you think he could not get a hold of some torch if you think thats more than enough, kinda like how the flamethrowers of the humans earlier were thrown away in favour of spears , your deductions are not looking logical and based on what you said next, are based purely on a graphics animation. Well yes, I think most things would melt in an enormous furnace, I think you missed the "kain" and not "dumah" in the thread unless your trying to generalise here?

What that they burned? so the Dumahim are flammable? so?

You see what I did? I think your just shooting it down because it aids you to do so, not based on any logical deduction. No your right there, it does not matter, why? because Bowsers never hitting Kain. Bowser also uses punches, more than his finger nails so they can be hardly compared to Raziels claws. Also, you do realise this argument, about whether or not he can at least follow Raziels technique, is just to scrape the top layer of skin on Kains chest? not damage him in any way....

Originally posted by BloodRain
No one throws a punch withought putting thire body into it, why cant Bowser? Nore to the point is that how he, or any character, exerts their force in a strike is unknown. At most you can half it for a one arm strike, but the same will then be applied to Raziel... so nothing really changes.

Oh, no. That was for the teleport.

The V comes from his lift speed, not its fall speed. Bit of a mistake there; Raziel's MaxJ (liking the sound of it) from the flip cant be added further to the speed of a strike, his maximum output cant be increased. Raziel can not produce more than 272 KJ, and thats the force behind his strike.

Thats why I dont use a 10GJ*5000m/s2 strengh for Dante.

Theres muslce in say your legs, lower back etc that may not be used in some punches. I can Punch with just one arm, my entire body, both arms etc would not be in a loose punch with just one arm. All Raziel is not using is one arm, so his strength would not be halved, since half his strength is not in one arm that ehs not using, but its important that bowser leaps into the attack. So far, looking through myself, he punches, not scrapes with his claws.

V comes from the potential energy shown, the obelisk moves a good meter or so without Raziels aid, hes doing to the obelisk what eh does to the smaller ones earlier, flipping. Yes it can, force increases due to speed, what do you think velocity is for? you dont use the velocity of the obelisk as the velocity for all his movements.

Dantes never moved something heavy at 5000m/s....seems to me according to you Dantes speed is irrelevent because you have to use the base speed of the feat and energy cannot be increased through speed, ofc I disagree but I dont know why your saying that.

I should not be awake right now...

Originally posted by Burning thought
apprently now my theory needs proof and yours does not? I never disputed it was done by humans, although I can give a suggestion not based on ignorance (you barely know the series) but on a vast educated knowledge on the subject, you see considering how even much older human civilisations used cannons, arbelists, ballistae as well iirc its fair to say its more logical that normal men did not take down the enormous Dumah simply by hand but used either an artifact like Moebius' staff or a mechanism. My logical deduction (not just because its from me, a better source on LoK) sounds better, due to the fact highwe tech humans who have access to flamethrowers are not going to take up spears by hand to fight Dumah.


No, sorry, my conclusion was based on the evidence given in the actual game. Specifically, Dumah secretly being a complete idiot in addition to his weakness. Oh, it looks like the specific "human weapons," by which I mean "those that were seen to be used," of the humans are all spears. Not a flamethrower to be seen, just every single Dumahim neatly impaled on the human spears. Wielded by humans. With human strength. The ones noted to be the least likely to actually be a threat.



I think what you're missing here is that, canonically, Raziel did not even try. We don't know if a torch would have worked just as well on Dumah as it did on all of his children, since it never really happened. Still, the overwhelming evidence is that all pretty much all vampire are immediately killed by fire. Oh, and I did find it interesting how humanity does seem to have abandoned flamethrowers in favor of these knives and staffs/spears. Not that I even saw a flamethrower when I went through the game, aside from something in Zephon's arena that might have been one? Because, you know, other than that, no one seems to use flamethrowers.



The problem being that humans, generally, are not flammable. Vampires, on the other hand, seem to burst into flame at the slightest touch with a torch and die on contact with a campfire. That Dumahim share this trait with every other vampire just sets a precedent for, say, Dumah himself to also be vulnerable to fire, as is shown by the furnace. Like every vampire in that game. So it follows that Kain is also vulnerable to fire, seeing as he, too, is a vampire, and a stated weakness of vampires is, in fact, fire. Of course, I don't see why this matters, as Bowser's flame is demonstrably much more powerful than even that furnace.



Raziel doesn't seem to have a problem hitting Kain, and he is not demonstrably faster than Bowser. Bowser does indeed punch, and breaks boulders doing so, but he has used his claws multiple times, particularly in the Paper Mario games where we learn that his claws are also poisoned. Blood Omen proves that Kain does not react well to poison. Then there's the fact that Bowser has literally more than 8 times Raziel's strength (much more if he goes giant) to rip out Kain's heart, and it's fairly easy to see that Bowser is capable of tearing Kain to pieces. Assuming he doesn't incinerate Kain first.

This is all heavy speculation that he can't simply put his body into a strike, like anyone would.

No, it comes from the person doing the lifting. The time and distance Raziel takes to lift it is the velocity, it falling down is under its own weight/gravity is velocity, just not one produced from Raziel's arms. And its not base energy, its the maximum amount of energy he can use. No ones using the V from the flip, we use the energy from it, and you cant release more then 100%.

Nor has Raziel ever moved 800 tons at 10m/s. Right now you're using his max strength feat and adding it to his attack speed, which has the same basis as using maxstrength*maxspeed^2. The highest force you can say was behind the attack is 272 KJ/his best strength feat.
And in this case would make the energy behind Kain's best durability feat 1/1000th that of what Bowser can produce.


Kain's durability = 0.272 MJ over claw tips.
Bowser's attack = 272 MJ over claw tips.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Then there's the fact that Bowser has literally more than 8 times Raziel's strength
20 times, 6,000 tons to 300 tons.

Originally posted by BloodRain
This is all heavy speculation that he can't simply put his body into a strike, like anyone would.

Which I find weird because one of Bowser's first skills is the "throw body into punch" move. And Bowser has a bit more mass than Raziel, too.




Ah, so it's not 700 tons as was claimed previously?

700 was my fault. I used a cuboid shape and assumed a height of 20m. I rechecked it with; Raziel more likely smaller height, measured block height of 14m and the formula to calc a frustum(the shape it is). It gives 293.307 tons, set at 300 as a friends method gave 307.

Going by joules, Bowser is exactly 1,000 times stronger. So strength isn't really an issue for him.

Originally posted by BloodRain
This is all heavy speculation that he can't simply put his body into a strike, like anyone would.

No, it comes from the person doing the lifting. The time and distance Raziel takes to lift it is the velocity, it falling down is under its own weight/gravity is velocity, just not one produced from Raziel's arms. And its not base energy, its the maximum amount of energy he can use. No ones using the V from the flip, we use the energy from it, and you cant release more then 100%.

Nor has Raziel ever moved 800 tons at 10m/s. Right now you're using his max strength feat and adding it to his attack speed, which has the same basis as using maxstrength*maxspeed^2. The highest force you can say was behind the attack is 272 KJ/his best strength feat.
And in this case would make the energy behind Kain's best durability feat 1/1000th that of what Bowser can produce.


Kain's durability = 0.272 MJ over claw tips.
Bowser's attack = 272 MJ over claw tips.



You need to look at the object mate, hence why we argue strength based on the objects, not how fast someones armsare moving. It does not fall down under its own weight until its moved a few meters on its axis, which Raziel made it go, if I was adding the distance it fell I would have 6+ meters down, not 3/4.

Show me where I added his max strength to his speed?

The durability of Kains outer skin layer is about 9 million tons, to get that from the 6000 of bowser, he needs to be able to claw Kain at Raziels speed, I have yet to see this kind of agility from him, if hes going to punch like a lot of his showings seem to imply this is a waste of time, not that its not already since as I said he would have to be lucky to strike Kain, very lucky.

Also dont forget to divide bowsers force over 4, not 2 like Raziel. Half the pressure than when Raziel hits Kain

Even if you can prove all this, Bowser gets a cookie for breaking Kains outer skin layer, he will get stuck though at Kains flesh/bone, in which Kain would more than likely just stick his hand through bowsers face, ripping it off.

Originally posted by The Scenario
I should not be awake right now...



No, sorry, my conclusion was based on the evidence given in the actual game. Specifically, Dumah secretly being a complete idiot in addition to his weakness. Oh, it looks like the specific "human weapons," by which I mean "those that were seen to be used," of the humans are all spears. Not a flamethrower to be seen, just every single Dumahim neatly impaled on the human spears. Wielded by humans. With human strength. The ones noted to be the least likely to actually be a threat.



I think what you're missing here is that, canonically, Raziel did not even try. We don't know if a torch would have worked just as well on Dumah as it did on all of his children, since it never really happened. Still, the overwhelming evidence is that all pretty much all vampire are immediately killed by fire. Oh, and I did find it interesting how humanity does seem to have abandoned flamethrowers in favor of these knives and staffs/spears. Not that I even saw a flamethrower when I went through the game, aside from something in Zephon's arena that might have been one? Because, you know, other than that, no one seems to use flamethrowers.



The problem being that humans, generally, are not flammable. Vampires, on the other hand, seem to burst into flame at the slightest touch with a torch and die on contact with a campfire. That Dumahim share this trait with every other vampire just sets a precedent for, say, Dumah himself to also be vulnerable to fire, as is shown by the furnace. Like every vampire in that game. So it follows that Kain is also vulnerable to fire, seeing as he, too, is a vampire, and a stated weakness of vampires is, in fact, fire. Of course, I don't see why this matters, as Bowser's flame is demonstrably much more powerful than even that furnace.



Raziel doesn't seem to have a problem hitting Kain, and he is not demonstrably faster than Bowser. Bowser does indeed punch, and breaks boulders doing so, but he has used his claws multiple times, particularly in the Paper Mario games where we learn that his claws are also poisoned. Blood Omen proves that Kain does not react well to poison. Then there's the fact that Bowser has literally more than 8 times Raziel's strength (much more if he goes giant) to rip out Kain's heart, and it's fairly easy to see that Bowser is capable of tearing Kain to pieces. Assuming he doesn't incinerate Kain first.

The game does not point out how Dumah was impaled, or how each vampire was impaled. Only that they are human weapons. Seems to me this was pre-soul reaver events, e.g. not long after Raziel was cast into the abyss because in the centuries that passed while Raziel was in the abyss, they had flamethrowers so unless these spears were launched by a contraption they must have been old traditional vampire hunters. It sort of goes against logic to think they held the weapons themselves unless they had some sort of magical properties because as shown earlier even Raziel with his much power needs to find ways of keeping them down and cannot just rip them in half, on top of that earlier humans had cannons and arbelists as I said.

Well of course he did not, what kind of idiot would try throwing a torch at Dumah? I like how you keep trying to imply fire destroys vampires so quickly not only based on gameplay animations but at the same time, its not immediatly at all, humans would also die if Raziel launched them into a huge bonfire. hasty generalisation fallacy, "vampire worshipers" are not classed as the whole of "humanity"

You have never seen a fire burn someone, humans are very flammable under certain heat, go and sit on a bonfire, you will burn. I dont see how it matters either, bowsers flame wont hit Kain, and Kain has durability beyond what his fire has burned no doubt.

Whats that based on? Kain just standing there in SR intro? , well are we using paper mario bowser or another one? Bowser based on what I have seen prefers the punch in which he would not even harm Kain. Well I guess when you have a heart,poison going through your blood after you drink it is a bad thing. Fairly easy to see based on what? you have not even proven he can do exactly what Raziel can do yet. Your throwing around 6000 tons as if that makes up for all the pressure Kain can take, its not even close. To get from that to 9 million? your going to have do similiar things to Raziel and I am yet to be convinced he can even do that.

Originally posted by Burning thought
The game does not point out how Dumah was impaled, or how each vampire was impaled. Only that they are human weapons. Seems to me this was pre-soul reaver events, e.g. not long after Raziel was cast into the abyss because in the centuries that passed while Raziel was in the abyss, they had flamethrowers so unless these spears were launched by a contraption they must have been old traditional vampire hunters. It sort of goes against logic to think they held the weapons themselves unless they had some sort of magical properties because as shown earlier even Raziel with his much power needs to find ways of keeping them down and cannot just rip them in half, on top of that earlier humans had cannons and arbelists as I said.

Elder God points out that Dumah was just being stupid and underestimating people, so he and his kin didn't expect an attack. In fact, the guy was speared through while sitting on his throne. How, prey tell, did they get a siege weapon in there? It seems more like he was so arrogant he didn't even bother defending himself and got killed for it. That, or he was taken by surprise. IIRC, that time period is during Kain's reign of terror after Nosgoth went all to hell. I dunno, but what I saw in Soul Reaver suggestion a technological regression, seeing as every human in the game is wielding melee weapons and neither flamethrowers nor cannons and arbelists are ever seen. If you want to claim that the humans of the Soul Reaver era had such things, you're going to have to shown them to me. Further, impalement is an explicit weakness of vampires, too, so the humans would hardly need to rip them apart. All it takes, as the game shows, is to stab them with something and they die. Raziel can throw them onto sharp wall fixtures to accomplish this.




Yes, your little gameplay argument. You know what? Scripted event. There you go, why would the animation show vampires instantly catching on fire and dying if that did not represent them? Why would those animations match the cutscenes of Zephon and Dumah so closely if that was not the intention? Why in the world, would fire be stated to be a weakness if it was not so very effective in game and in cutscene? By the way, the worshipers are hardly the only humans wielding melee weapons. There is a whole temple (right next to Dumah's territory, in fact) full of humans whose best weapon appears to be a pole-arm. A spear. I'm sure you will present evidence of high tech weapons if you want to prove the humans have them at that point.



I have, in fact, suffered third degree burns before. You know what happened? My skin sizzled and blistered where it wasn't burned off. You know what did not happen? Well, my arm did not immediately burst into flames that quickly spread all over my body and thereby kill me in seconds. See, I think you are confusing "getting burned" and "being set on fire." You are always burned when you are on fire, but you are not always on fire when you are burned. See, the difference between humans and vampires is this: humans are not flammable, vampires are. Humans are difficult to set on fire; we can be burned, yes, but our skin does not catch on fire like paper, so the burns tend to be limited to the initial area of exposure or on clothing. Vampires, on the other hand, light up like fireworks.

I very well could sit on a campfire and, if my body didn't put out the fire, get burned pretty badly. What I won't do, however, is catch on fire, seeing as human skin is not flammable. Maybe my clothes will catch, if they don't melt. On the other hand, we have seen vampires land in a fire and immediately be covered in flames. We have seen a torch put in their chest catch their entire bodies. A flaming egg sets Zephon alight like any other vampire. This even happens in cutscenes, and is a scripted move for the torch weapon.



Based on every fight between Kain and Raziel? Try Raziel tagging him with the Reaver. Or ripping out his heart. Try the Hylden Lord slashing right through him. Or knocking him into a wall. Really, Kain can't seem to get the hang of dodging.
Bowser's Inside Story is the only game where Bowser actually uses punches regularly. In other games he has other forms of attack, usually just fire breath. He breathes fire, throws hammers, or uses a ground pound in the original games. He uses his claws, teeth, fire breath, and the Star Rod in Paper Mario 1 and 2. He uses claws, weapons, and summons in Mario RPG. He uses shockwaves, shell attacks, and fire in Mario Galaxy. He has one punch move in Galaxy 2, but he's giant and his fist is covered in purple fire. With his claws he's over 20 times Raziel's strength, and since Raziel can rip out Kain's heart, Bowser will tear him pieces.

Originally posted by The Scenario


Man with an arbalest:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MV6-5H-zuvo#t=8m25s

Man with flamethrower AND some sort of advanced suit

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MV6-5H-zuvo#t=8m39s

Elder God says he was surprised, so? Makes no indication still that humans, killed them all by hand, impossible due to previous evidence. I dont know about technological regeression, its just Vampires dont need it and clear away most of humanity, they mostly live in the citadel in the video above. Again, you dont know anything about LoK, impalement is a weakness because as Raziel says all other wounds are healed almost instantly, you need to keep an object in a vampire for it to remain defeated, e.g. a spear through the heart. I would imagine, a spear would need to pierce a vampire to defeat them, if your going to play sillly bugger then your wasting my time again. So it takes Raziels force then to put them on these fixtures, you did not counter my point with the whole "raziel has find other ways" thing, afterall Raziel hasa pair of huge claws with 9 million tons of force at his disposal.

Why would they catch on fire? because its in-game where if the mechanics meant you had to stand and make sure they actually burned in say, 20 minutes it would be boring wouldnt it. Dumah was in a furnace...a whole temple right? wow, a whole temple and they cannot possibly be more worshipers. I have provided the human citadel if you watch the videos have flamethrowers, only vampire worshipers use knives.

Third degree burns from what? a bonfire? because talking about something that only touched a small area is not the same, all vampires get thrown in bonfires, or torches light them by hand and vampires are not all naked. I think if you were wearing clothing, you would burn. Vampires typically wear clothing, at least in your examples (Zephon has flammable objects all around him, cacoons for one).

you take specific context sensitive scenes and then claim hes not going to move at all. Maybe bowser wont move side to side because hes in a 2d space in most of his games , your talking nonsense again, e.g. he did not move there, therefore hes not going to move now.

Infact thats wrong, you see using his claws I have calculated the power of Bowsers blow, assuming he moves exactly the same way as Raziel, I know he cant because hes cumbersome and until I see that kind of agility I am not agreeing to such velocity but actually, bowser only has about 47% more energy in his attack than Raziel:



Even using the best possible outcome for Bowser, your still talking bullshit, why? because for your plan to work and do any damage conceivable Bowsers going to have to be standing there for minutes while Kain lets him scrape piecies off his top skin layer off....this does not happen and is fleeting to Kain who will likely heal between slashes anyway. Now please stop wasting my time with red herrings, semantics and poor logic, i think we both agree your circular debating style is boring and has never gotten us anywhere.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Man with an arbalest:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MV6-5H-zuvo#t=8m25s

Man with flamethrower AND some sort of advanced suit

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MV6-5H-zuvo#t=8m39s

Elder God says he was surprised, so? Makes no indication still that humans, killed them all by hand, impossible due to previous evidence. I dont know about technological regeression, its just Vampires dont need it and clear away most of humanity, they mostly live in the citadel in the video above. Again, you dont know anything about LoK, impalement is a weakness because as Raziel says all other wounds are healed almost instantly, you need to keep an object in a vampire for it to remain defeated, e.g. a spear through the heart. I would imagine, a spear would need to pierce a vampire to defeat them, if your going to play sillly bugger then your wasting my time again. So it takes Raziels force then to put them on these fixtures, you did not counter my point with the whole "raziel has find other ways" thing, afterall Raziel hasa pair of huge claws with 9 million tons of force at his disposal.

'k, you have you weapons, though that second one looks like a torch. Wonder why I never saw those guys when I went through the human citadel? Oh, well. Still, there's no indication that either of those were used, seeing as most of the Dumahim in Dumah's fortress, as well as Dumah himself, were impaled by six foot long spikes. Unless you're arguing that the humans fit one of those spikes on that tiny crossbow, you're still not telling me anything. Further, yes, I know why impalement is a weakness, it was explained in the game, by Raziel himself. But it doesn't prove much of anything since Raziel is not the only one impaling things, seeing as it's one of the Sarafan's primary methods of disposing of vampires, and Raziel knew of it long before he got his wraith strength amp. Dumah was found nailed to his chair, that indicates there were humans in his throne room, and he was impaled from multiple directions, once in front, and one in each left and right. The Dumahim were found inside the fortress walls, and even in the fortress itself. Trying to argue that non-human strength did that has no basis, since they are human weapons and we've seen nothing that can launch the spikes. You'd have to show the, what, siege weapon? Whatever would be capable of launching those six foot spikes. It's much more likely, and even implied, that the humans took Dumah by surprise and killed him. Vampire hunters, in most of the games I played, usually attack in melee.



Because its a stated weakness we've seen happen in cutscene. The in game animation is still consistent with both Zephon and Dumah's death taking seconds, so the weaker spawn taking similar time just makes sense. I have seen the human citadel, I simply did not see those weapon on account them not being six foot long spikes. I did see the spears, though.



Burning grill with a fire a bit smaller than this on one arm. Heck, a kid at my school had a bonfire explode on him due to stupid gasoline use and he's fine now. But the thing is, even if it is something that touched a small area, a torch, for example, will catch a vampire's whole body. You know, you say that, but I've yet to see a vampire that will actually wear a shirt with the exception of whatever the heck Dumahim wear. Though it doesn't seem to make a difference since they all burn the same. I notice Kain doesn't wear a shirt, either.



Not all that context sensitive. Raziel hit Kain in the Soul Reaver 2 intro, though it was really just the same boss fight from the end of Soul Reaver being retconned. Raziel hit Kain even after both started fighting seriously in Defiance. A weakened Raziel's claws still pierced Kain's (who was absorbing him) chest, ruining any chance of Kain's immunity being accurate. The demonstrably slow Hylden Lord outfought and cut through Kain (the Soul Reaver and Nexus Stone put them on equal terms), and it took Kain 200 years to recover. Then the Hylden Lord knocked Kain out of the air during a slow jump. Based on those, I can say even if Kain moves Bowser can hit him. Especially if Bowser remembers he can teleport.




Bowser's actually pretty agile and can throw his body into attacks. Still, being so much stronger than someone who ripped out Kain's heart should let Bowser do quite a bit of damage to Kain. That first video even shows Bowser amping his claws with magic purple fire. You can leave the math to BloodRain, since I don't really want to look at it, but even a cursory glance shows that Kain isn't immune to Raziel. Heck, Raziel was destined to kill Kain, and that's rather hard to do if Raziel can't hurt him. So, really, claiming Kain is immune seems the sillier option, given the evidence of Kain having his heart ripped by Raziel and slashed by the Hylden Lord, a wound it took 200 years in a coma to recover from.

Originally posted by The Scenario
'k, you have you weapons, though that second one looks like a torch. Wonder why I never saw those guys when I went through the human citadel? Oh, well. Still, there's no indication that either of those were used, seeing as most of the Dumahim in Dumah's fortress, as well as Dumah himself, were impaled by six foot long spikes. Unless you're arguing that the humans fit one of those spikes on that tiny crossbow, you're still not telling me anything. Further, yes, I know why impalement is a weakness, it was explained in the game, by Raziel himself. But it doesn't prove much of anything since Raziel is not the only one impaling things, seeing as it's one of the Sarafan's primary methods of disposing of vampires, and Raziel knew of it long before he got his wraith strength amp. Dumah was found nailed to his chair, that indicates there were humans in his throne room, and he was impaled from multiple directions, once in front, and one in each left and right. The Dumahim were found inside the fortress walls, and even in the fortress itself. Trying to argue that non-human strength did that has no basis, since they are human weapons and we've seen nothing that can launch the spikes. You'd have to show the, what, siege weapon? Whatever would be capable of launching those six foot spikes. It's much more likely, and even implied, that the humans took Dumah by surprise and killed him. Vampire hunters, in most of the games I played, usually attack in melee.



Because its a stated weakness we've seen happen in cutscene. The in game animation is still consistent with both Zephon and Dumah's death taking seconds, so the weaker spawn taking similar time just makes sense. I have seen the human citadel, I simply did not see those weapon on account them not being six foot long spikes. I did see the spears, though.



Burning grill with a fire a bit smaller than this on one arm. Heck, a kid at my school had a bonfire explode on him due to stupid gasoline use and he's fine now. But the thing is, even if it is something that touched a small area, a torch, for example, will catch a vampire's whole body. You know, you say that, but I've yet to see a vampire that will actually wear a shirt with the exception of whatever the heck Dumahim wear. Though it doesn't seem to make a difference since they all burn the same. I notice Kain doesn't wear a shirt, either.



Not all that context sensitive. Raziel hit Kain in the Soul Reaver 2 intro, though it was really just the same boss fight from the end of Soul Reaver being retconned. Raziel hit Kain even after both started fighting seriously in Defiance. A weakened Raziel's claws still pierced Kain's (who was absorbing him) chest, ruining any chance of Kain's immunity being accurate. The demonstrably slow Hylden Lord outfought and cut through Kain (the Soul Reaver and Nexus Stone put them on equal terms), and it took Kain 200 years to recover. Then the Hylden Lord knocked Kain out of the air during a slow jump. Based on those, I can say even if Kain moves Bowser can hit him. Especially if Bowser remembers he can teleport.




Bowser's actually pretty agile and can throw his body into attacks. Still, being so much stronger than someone who ripped out Kain's heart should let Bowser do quite a bit of damage to Kain. That first video even shows Bowser amping his claws with magic purple fire. You can leave the math to BloodRain, since I don't really want to look at it, but even a cursory glance shows that Kain isn't immune to Raziel. Heck, Raziel was destined to kill Kain, and that's rather hard to do if Raziel can't hurt him. So, really, claiming Kain is immune seems the sillier option, given the evidence of Kain having his heart ripped by Raziel and slashed by the Hylden Lord, a wound it took 200 years in a coma to recover from.

You should have seen them since their all over the place, their a major element. Well no, the point is not that they were used, the point was that if this was a modern assault, where Dumah and his kin were at Soul reaver era strength then they would be using soul reaver era weapons, not spears not to mension the fact that humans as proven could never even damage normal vampires in soul reaver era without equipment I have shown otherwise as I said, Raziel would make easy meat of them. I dont know about fitting them on the crossbow although I dont know all their methods, its more possible than humans driving spears through 9 million tons of durability. If you look at the speared vamps, a lot of them are not soul reaver era. No, nothing non human can do it because Raziel cannot, thats a simple deduction so until we know for a fact human strength did it its useless to claim they did, we have seen plenty of weapons to suggest they have more offensive power than grabbing a spear unless, as I said they were pre-soul reaver era. In most of the games you played? what ones? because usually Vampire hunters, sarafan etc have a lot of ranged weapons from cannons (demon hunters but similiar purpose) and arbelists, arrows etc.

It was stated not as a weakness that automatically defeats them, the way Raziel says it is that vampires only have to fear "wounds that inflame" it was never indicated as soon as you toss a match at one they die.

Did you also notice all fire throughout the game seems to catch light really quickly? if you want further proof I can find other points in the game where other objects catch light almost instantly, quicker than irl. Point is, this is a gameplay mechanic, I dont know many games, certainly old ones that have in-game fire that spreads realistically, did you also notice the torches lose their fire after you use it? all mechanics. Kains irrelevent tbh, hes shown more endurance to all things beyond his kin other than perhaps water, also you forget at his youngest Kain walked through the very fires of hell unscathed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_11r1yE3FI&feature=related#t=5m22s

Their extremely sensitive because Kain does not even try to move, your making the claim that just because "he was hit" and "did not move" that he will never move or dodge against any opponent in a vs, I think thats more fallacies than hasty generalisation but its also just bad logic. Does not ruin the immunity because Raziel did it after not only both were weakened but Kain took the soul reaver to the chest, which actually wounded him, again context is important. Blood omen 2 Kain is not in this thread ergo, Kains durability thousand or two years ago is irrelevent but dont forget the blade simply phased through Kain without harming him, its likely this will simply happen here and Bowser cannot even hit Kain assuming Kain does not just use mist dodge.

Not sure how accurate that is because its in space isnt it, they dont seem to have much gravity. It will let him at best, scrape the top piecies of Kains skin off at least until kain simply re-heals between slashes, again as I said your making a mockery of me I think because Kains not just going to just stand there assuming he even let bowser hit him. Again context please, they did not use only claws here, Bowser does not use the wraith blade, the major weapon of power in the series (aside from the soul reaver itself) and the weapon Kain admits can kill him. If you check back, its the only option since Kain stands immune to claws, if your giving Bowser the wraith blade then perhaps he can do some more damage but Kain does not have a heart anymore on top of that the wound was not physical, Kains physical body was barely touched it seems to magic fire from the hylden magic did more damage. But again, context, this is not Blood omen Kain, its almost like argueing the weakest Ganon in LoZ, e.g. one without triforce or any power ups and generalising his power throughout the entire series.

Originally posted by Burning thought
You should have seen them since their all over the place, their a major element. Well no, the point is not that they were used, the point was that if this was a modern assault, where Dumah and his kin were at Soul reaver era strength then they would be using soul reaver era weapons, not spears not to mension the fact that humans as proven could never even damage normal vampires in soul reaver era without equipment I have shown otherwise as I said, Raziel would make easy meat of them. I dont know about fitting them on the crossbow although I dont know all their methods, its more possible than humans driving spears through 9 million tons of durability. If you look at the speared vamps, a lot of them are not soul reaver era. No, nothing non human can do it because Raziel cannot, thats a simple deduction so until we know for a fact human strength did it its useless to claim they did, we have seen plenty of weapons to suggest they have more offensive power than grabbing a spear unless, as I said they were pre-soul reaver era. In most of the games you played? what ones? because usually Vampire hunters, sarafan etc have a lot of ranged weapons from cannons (demon hunters but similiar purpose) and arbelists, arrows etc.


Meh, I never killed the human, so I never fought against them. Just went through the citadel. However, I'm not really sure what you mean, because this is Soul Reaver era, and in fact shows several Dumahim impaled on spears, which are stated to be human weapons. Dumah himself is turned into a pincushion. Dumah and his kin being Soul Reaver era vampires. Don't really see any other way to put a spear in a vampire other than melee. Raziel not being able to tear vampires apart is just gameplay mechanics.



Good thing we have cutscenes then. Which the in game animations match up with surprisingly well.



Doesn't really stop it from being a weakness, nor does it stop Zephon and Dumah from dying in seconds. Bowser's flame is demonstrably more powerful than even the furnace Dumah got hit by, so small flames don't actually matter.



Fixed.



Neither Kain nor Mortanius is even being burned, and not even human Kain seems bothered by it. It's doubtful that Hell even has literal flame. Since Kain wakes up in a grave, I question whether or not that event took place in a physical area, rather than a spiritual or mental one. Where's the Heart of Darkness, I wonder? (The real one, of course, as opposed to the healing items.)



Kain and Raziel were fighting seriously there, and Kain was still hit even while he was moving. I never once claimed that Kain would not move; If you read my previous posts, I said that Bowser could likely hit Kain even if he did try to dodge, seeing as both Raziel and the Hylden Lord have done so. I find it strange, however, that you say Blood Omen 2 Kain is not in this thread, yet just one paragraph ago you used Blood Omen 1 Kain to attempt to prove his durability. Why can I not do the same? All I'm arguing here is that Kain has been outfought on several occasions and Bowser is capable of doing the same. The Hylden Lord's blade actually gave Kain a pretty serious wound, not to mention Kain is still in pain from it over 200 years later. To quote Umah, there was but "The barest thread of life" still in him. Raziel also still tore out his heart, while weakened and being absorbed by Kain, and the Wraith Blade still struck a different part of his chest. Context, since Raziel could not have been using all of his strength there.




Ha, the gravity is unchanged from anywhere else in the game, and Bowser can fly anyway. Bowser, being stronger than the Raziel that pierced Kain's chest, could obviously do much more, especially if he chooses to amp his claws with that purple fire. Kain is hardly immune to claws, see Raziel, and then see how Kain spectacularly failed to regenerate and had to be healed by an outside force. See, based on this, I think Bowser wins if he can get a hold of Kain, which going by cutscenes is not all that hard, plus it looks like Kain's regeneration is hampered without his heart, since he needs to be healed now.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Meh, I never killed the human, so I never fought against them. Just went through the citadel. However, I'm not really sure what you mean, because this is Soul Reaver era, and in fact shows several Dumahim impaled on spears, which are stated to be human weapons. Dumah himself is turned into a pincushion. Dumah and his kin being Soul Reaver era vampires. Don't really see any other way to put a spear in a vampire other than melee. Raziel not being able to tear vampires apart is just gameplay mechanics.



Good thing we have cutscenes then. Which the in game animations match up with surprisingly well.



Doesn't really stop it from being a weakness, nor does it stop Zephon and Dumah from dying in seconds. Bowser's flame is demonstrably more powerful than even the furnace Dumah got hit by, so small flames don't actually matter.



Fixed.



Neither Kain nor Mortanius is even being burned, and not even human Kain seems bothered by it. It's doubtful that Hell even has literal flame. Since Kain wakes up in a grave, I question whether or not that event took place in a physical area, rather than a spiritual or mental one. Where's the Heart of Darkness, I wonder? (The real one, of course, as opposed to the healing items.)



Kain and Raziel were fighting seriously there, and Kain was still hit even while he was moving. I never once claimed that Kain would not move; If you read my previous posts, I said that Bowser could likely hit Kain even if he did try to dodge, seeing as both Raziel and the Hylden Lord have done so. I find it strange, however, that you say Blood Omen 2 Kain is not in this thread, yet just one paragraph ago you used Blood Omen 1 Kain to attempt to prove his durability. Why can I not do the same? All I'm arguing here is that Kain has been outfought on several occasions and Bowser is capable of doing the same. The Hylden Lord's blade actually gave Kain a pretty serious wound, not to mention Kain is still in pain from it over 200 years later. To quote Umah, there was but "The barest thread of life" still in him. Raziel also still tore out his heart, while weakened and being absorbed by Kain, and the Wraith Blade still struck a different part of his chest. Context, since Raziel could not have been using all of his strength there.




Ha, the gravity is unchanged from anywhere else in the game, and Bowser can fly anyway. Bowser, being stronger than the Raziel that pierced Kain's chest, could obviously do much more, especially if he chooses to amp his claws with that purple fire. Kain is hardly immune to claws, see Raziel, and then see how Kain spectacularly failed to regenerate and had to be healed by an outside force. See, based on this, I think Bowser wins if he can get a hold of Kain, which going by cutscenes is not all that hard, plus it looks like Kain's regeneration is hampered without his heart, since he needs to be healed now.

We know their human weapons, never disputed that so I dont know why you keep saying it, we know what happened eventually but not how. Raziel says in the cutscene he needs to burn and impale them consistently, a gameplay mechanic is the fact Raziel has to keep hitting them again and again, but the cutscene also points out he needs to find other ways. He would not say that if he could just pluck its arms from its shoulders or pull it in two.

Its not an FMV, it uses the same engine to render its cutscenes.

Well it does because you miss the point that its only a weakness because otherwise they would be invincible to typical harm. I dont know, what was your evidence for that exactly because all I have seen is him burning trees.

So your claim is that this is somehow just a dream? not a place? I dont get you, wheres your evidence?

So your argument is that because Raziel/Hylden lord can hit Kain while hes barely fighting, Bowser can when Kain is fighting at the top of his game? It was not to prove durability, it was to prove fire resistance unless your trying to claim there is no difference between BO1 Kain physical resistance and LoK era?

Kain was not fighting Raziel to defeat him, Raziel is integral to him, bowser is just a piece of trash to kill. The Hylden lord was fighting Kain at his weakest (arguably) and while wearing the Nexus stone that nullified Kains weapon. No, theres no actual physical wound, you just see it go through him. We dont know why Kain is still in pain, Hylden magic is my guess. It hit his chest, thats it, theres a lot of context thats important. Taking someone at their weakest and wounded to try and claim Kains weaker despite the other feat being Kain at full strength (and in an FMV) is illogical.

Kains chest<wraith blade=Raziel pierce. Kain chest>>>Raziels claws=no damage at all. As I said, small scrapes is all he can do, and it would take a while to eventually do any real damage, then he hits Kains bone...oh shit....Bowser gets punched, and dies or struck with Kains superior speed. One dimensional teleport, or one teleport for distance and a follow up strike. Or just TKs the big dinosaur into the air and slices him in half midflow. I could probably list all the practical ways for Kain to kill Bowser with ease but theres no point, Kain only needs his hands.

Also you really dont get the ending of Defiance do you, the whole "purification" and "healing" Raziel sacrificed himself for Kain was not just to heal the little hole he made on Kains chest...it was a purification of the corruption Nupruptor the guardian of mind cursed kain and all the circle guardians at the time with when his wife died, hence why Kain is so corrupt spiritually ANd why his sons devolve into monsters, they cannot take Kains corruption. Also if you look at Kains chest and when Moebius has his hand pulled to it theres no actual hole, its more a scar with blood across it.

Originally posted by Burning thought
We know their human weapons, never disputed that so I dont know why you keep saying it, we know what happened eventually but not how. Raziel says in the cutscene he needs to burn and impale them consistently, a gameplay mechanic is the fact Raziel has to keep hitting them again and again, but the cutscene also points out he needs to find other ways. He would not say that if he could just pluck its arms from its shoulders or pull it in two.

Well, see, because we know that they are human weapons, and humans spears are wielded in melee, we at least know that humans engaged and defeated the Dumahim in melee. True, they had the element of surprise and Dumah's arrogance working in their favor, but that doesn't really affect durability. Gameplay mechanics would be the combat system, which requires vampires to be impaled, burned, or drowned and prevents normal attacks from working. We already know from the Sarafan that humans are capable of impaling vampire, so this isn't a surprise. The surprise is Dumah himself also being impaled, with a human melee weapon.



Doesn't matter, it's still a scripted non-gameplay, story focused event. Which outright shows two allegedly powerful vampires die instantly when caught on fire.



No limits fallacy and gameplay mechanics for vampires being invincible. Bowser reducing trees to ash in seconds is a great feat for his fire, and already puts him above the furnace. There's also destroying brick and, if giant, stone and castles.



1. No Heart of Darkness. Kain is revived using it, yet it does not appear in the scene. Instead, Kain just suddenly transforms.

2. Mortanius is also unharmed by the fire. Regardless of whether on not it's a real place, this indicates it isn't harmful.

3. Human Kain is not burned, either.

4. Kain's quote specifically states he is not in any physical pain, but rather full of rage. Combined with the above two points, it seems the fire is mostly for show.

5. Most importantly, Kain awakens in a mausoleum as a vampire. It's most likely some kind of underworld, as opposed to any physical place.

I don't care whether it's a dream or not, or even whether the place exists. I'm simply pointing out that trying to use that as a fire resistance/durability feat is an exercise in futility.



No, my argument is that because Raziel and the Hylden Lord can hit Kain at the top of his game, Bowser can also hit him. I'm talking more about speed, here; mostly the fact that Kain does not show very much of it while fighting. Fire resistance is durability, just focused specifically on fire. The confusing thing here is you seem to be claiming that a durability feat in Blood Omen 1 (this fire claim) still counts for something, yet your comments imply you think there is a difference in abilities between Blood Omen Kain and LoK era Kain. The fact that you're trying to use Blood Omen as a feat, however, implies you think Kain's durability is constant. How curious.



If only that were true. On the other hand, the canon outright shows that Kain was fighting to defeat Raziel, and in fact briefly did. Of course, after that Raziel attacks again, and you think Kain wouldn't go for the win a second time? Even before the fight, Kain was trying to fight defensively, dodging Raziel, yet he did ended up getting hit. Against the Hylden Lord, Kain was outfought when they were on equal terms, and after that the Hylden Lord could swat him out of the air. Fact is, if these guys could land a hit on Kain, I don't foresee Bowser having a problem with it. I don't care how strong or weak Kain was, because the beauty of it is that it doesn't matter. Kain's speed is the same in both cutscenes, allowing both Raziel and the Hylden Lord to tag him, regardless of how powerful he was.




No, as it turns out, Kain's chest > Raziel's claws since Raziel's claws pierced Kain's chest. The wraith blade did not appreciably affect this, seeing as it struck a completely different area and Kain was absorbing Raziel in any case. You're trying to use an earlier feat to contradict a later one, when this is not how it works. Raziel was even weaker than he was before, so it looks like Kain vs Raziel got retconned now that Raziel can hurt him in a weakened state. Now, Bowser, being so many times stronger than Raziel, will most likely just take Kain apart if he chooses not to torch the vampire.



Yes, yes, I know how how the plot works, I was simply pointing out that it also physically healed Kain of his giant wound. When Raziel ripped Kain's heart out, Kain failed to regenerate, and the character model reflects that with a gaping hole. Without the heart, it seems Kain can't regenerate, which will just make it easier for Bowser.

Originally posted by The Scenario


We dont know their just human spears, and you cannot generalise just because previous humans have used spears in melee these were without a doubt used such so no, you have no case. Raziels says all of it in a cutscene. sarafan are pre-soul reaver era. Your assuming it was a human melee weapon, or that it was a spear at all, I could simply claim it was some sort of ballistae bolt or a shot launched from one of those crossbow things, all more likely than humans>>9 million tons.

It does matter, because the graphics render the fire, actions etc, it also makes wood and iirc stone burn just as quick when irl it could take minutes if not hours. And he did not die, Zephon flailed about, and I would hardly describe an enormous furnace for dumah as just "cought on fire".

Did you miss the point on purpose? How is burning a tree more impressive than a furnace?

1. This is the only worthwhile point, the rest;

2. Just a feat for mortanius as well

3. Hes hardly human at that point, hes dead so hes something in between but concious.

4. Well if it does not harm him he would not be in any physical pain would he.

5. Whether hes in an underworld or not, why does that matter?

Well we have a lot of excercises here, like you reaching for humans physically killing vampires in melee despite all evidence suggesting otherwise, Bowser being able to hit, let alone damage Kain as if Kains just going to do nothing etc.

Excuse me, top of his game? BO2? Your playing on PIS to help Bowser? maybe I will claim bowser will just jump up and down in this fight or punch then, since he does not seem to intelligently fight. Physically there clearly is a difference, but your claiming current Kain is weaker because of a previous Kain, illogical wheras I can claim current Kain is stronger based on previous Kains unless it can be proven he loses some specific power. What your doing is like using a Kratos feat from God of war 1 and saying Kratos in GoW 3 is weaker despite all his powerups because of it.

Well you dont know the story clearly, Kain does not want to harm Raziel and is simply defending himself. This is not the same here, Kains just going to kill bowser without any reason to halt or go all out to kill him. Kains speed is not moving basically, you use two context sensitive areas and then claim Bowser is going to hit him, ignoring mist dodge, teleport etc. But this is, again a red herring because Kain is just going to stand there and take what Bowser brings to the table with ease.

The wraith blade hit his chest, plain and simple, its the only difference between the two scenes that can give Raziel an advantage beyond Soul reaver 2 unless devouring Turels soul boosted him more than just his TK powers and gave him a general boost. You would be right if Kain was not weakened and struck by the wraith blade and if they were both at max power levels but hey, your not right because again you ignore context when it suits you. Again, you keep claiming bullshit, he can barely if hes lucky scrape the outer layer of Kains skin, Kain on the other hand swats the thing with the back of his hand, snapping its neck.

It looks like just a scar, fair enough Kains healing is not perfect but theres no real hole, as I said it seems fairly flat. Even the developers identify it as just a scar. Also, you forget that Kains natural body is not the only thing that regenerates him, he wields the reaver. The model looks like a scarred area with congealed blood, if it was an open wound then more blood would be seeping from it, the ribs would be pertruding etc, clearly these are healed because Kains chest is fairly smooth.

So far bowser cannot:

-Do any real long term damage to Kain
-penetrate beyond his outer flesh
-Show any feats to keep up with Kain
-counter the reaver
-counter time control
-counter mind rape, soul rape, blood drain.
-Counter Kains fist smacking into his skull and tearing his spine out
-Counter Telekinesis

So far all he can do is slap Kains chest in an infantile attempt at damaging him and win the hearts and minds of overzealous fans who are too filled with pride to drop a point no matter how fallacious it is.

How do you get all of that out of this thread so far? Like, are you even reading or just going back to ignoring everything again?

Nothing so far counters any of those statements. Also pot calling kettle black again, I cannot ignore something and then counter it or even post to it so obviously it was not ignored, infact I even use some of the oppositions things for my outcome.

I should probably just ignore your trolling but replying to one sentance hardly matters. Maybe if you spent more time actually making some sort of argument than throwing in fallacies now and then and more or less discrediting your own team you may help them out.

Originally posted by Burning thought
We dont know their just human spears, and you cannot generalise just because previous humans have used spears in melee these were without a doubt used such so no, you have no case. Raziels says all of it in a cutscene. sarafan are pre-soul reaver era. Your assuming it was a human melee weapon, or that it was a spear at all, I could simply claim it was some sort of ballistae bolt or a shot launched from one of those crossbow things, all more likely than humans>>9 million tons.

So you're ignoring the cutscene, then?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMBp3prbh1E#t=1m

They are stated to be human weapons. Just by looking at them I can see that they are sprears and tridents, with distinctly un-aerodynamic prongs on them. If you want to claim that they were launched from something, please show me the launching device. If you can't it seems you just made that up. Then I'm sure you can show me how they got such a siege weapon into Dumah's throne room.



This comes closer to ignoring canon than cutscenes, but functionally the same. Vampires are canonically stated to be weak to fire. Observations in cutscene show that this is in fact the case, with at least two vampires dying immediate after they are hit by fire. You can't deny this and still say you're following canon.



And now you seem to have ignored the cutscene I showed you of Bowser destroying stone with his fire blasts. In any case, burning a tree to ash in seconds is rather above the shown feats of the furnace, which seems to be making a small explosion that fails to destroy stone, rather unlike Bowser's flames.




2. Hardly. Mortanius is still human, what reason does he have to be immune to fire? As a Necromancer, it's more likely he can communicate with dead in some way. Kain being dead, it's simply how he chose to give him the deal and convinces him to return to his body.

3. His body seems to be in a mausoleum. I'm guessing soul or spirit. Rather like Ariel. Still, not even mentioning the fire indicates it likely isn't hot.

4. Yet he seems to be describing emotional pain, like rage. Again, he doesn't even mention fire.

5. If he's in a underworld, he may not have a physical body. Him waking up in a mausoleum implies his body was there while his spirit or something was elsewhere, with Mortanius. Ergo his actual body has no fire resistance.



All actual evidenceis that the Dumahim were killed by humans in melee, though. That is, without all the speculation that they had non existent siege weapons that they got inside a castle before using. Unless, of course, you can prove that not only are tridents good ammunition, they have something to fire them out of, and got them inside Dumah's fortress.



Well, you know, I can claim Kain lost quite a few of his powers thanks to his defeat and subsequent coma thanks to the Sarafan Lord. Since he did. Though, again, I'm not really claiming that Kain is any weaker, just that cutscene show him as not being very good at dodging. It's not like I'm saying the Sarafan Lord could almost kill him again, I'm saying that the Sarafan Lord hit him and Kain's dodging has not improved since then. Since the Sarafan Lord hit him again when he tried to attack him. And then Raziel managed to hit him again, showing that his ability to dodge has had little improvement. In this case, early Kain matches late Kain.



Yes, I'm sure that why he went all out and beat Raziel down. Remember when he did that? Yeah, good times. Oh, and if he was dedicating himself purely to defending, he did a poor job of it since he still got hit. So I doubt Bowser will have that much of problem hitting a non defensive Kain.



The Wraith Blade did not hit his chest, plain and simple. The scene is still quite different from Soul Reaver 2, including the way Raziel continually hesitating to kill Kain there. I doubt that he was using his claws. Whereas in Defiance he was weakened by, you know, Kain absorbing his soul. Heck, we know from the ending that touching Raziel can heal Kain, both physically and spiritually. So yeah, Raziel was weakened, and Kain was being strengthened. So really, noding boding well for Kain, especially with Bowser being so much stronger than Raziel.



I not convinced you even watched the video at the moment. Here. You can see it's a hole in the middle of his chest. Even here you can tell it's a hole he failed to regenerate. Oh, I wonder why this open wound isn't bleeding what with Kain missing the very organ that pumps it, not to mention Kain was lying in the Demon Realm for quite a while. No surprise he's not regenerating. His ribs weren't even visible when Raziel ripped the heart out, why would they be visible now?

Barely any of these were even brought up, why are you assuming you've disputed them? That seems dishonest.



These are the same thing, why separate them? In any case, it's already known that a weakened Raziel can tear out a strengthening Kain's heart, in addition to the fact that Bowser is 20 times stronger than Raziel. Bowser can not only hurt Kain, he can poison him, which Kain is again known to be vulnerable to and can do absolutely nothing about.



Define "keep up with." Bowser is plenty fast and can teleport, not to mention fly.



Flying. Problem solved.



If you're referring to, say, Spirit Wrack, Spirit Death, or Blood Gout, not only were those lost due to his loss to the Srafan Lord, they are all projectiles. Slow projectiles, at that. Blood drain is especially doubtful.



Bowser's durability is likely to make that one impossible. What with supernova being generally > Kain. Or giant iron balls. Not to mention he can just go giant form.



Giant, teleport, flight, etc.



Well, so far Bowser is stronger than a guy that ripped out Kain's heart, exploits Kain's weakness to fire, and is capable of poisoning him, another weakness. That right there sounds like a win.

King Koopa would manhandle Kain while Mario and Raziel got it on in the background, kidding. Kain would manhandle Koopa. Most of 'King' Koop is merely H2H, something Kain is great at due to his age and experience. And, I'd love to see 'King' Poopa stand being stabbed by the Reaver. Any form of it, lulz

Originally posted by The Scenario


Been a busy boy? I thought you had gone on holiday without telling

You miss the point, we dont know "thier just" human spears, you also said yourself as I agree thier human weapons, but your the one assuming spears, I could just as rightly claim (more so based on evidence) that they were fired from a device, enchanted by magic used by previous vampire hunters or series of other things. You have seen a launching device, although why do i have to show you the launching device? your just making claims and suggestions, you could no more prove they did it by hand and defeated 9 million tons of durability which is ridiculous than I can prove my far more likely theory that arguably modern man (flame throwers, tech armour) or at least a humanity that have had so many far more higher tech weapons (including those shown in this game) used an unseen siege weapon, sorcerous device etc.

Thats because it can kill them, your making the reaching leap that it destroys them fast based on an old games graphics engine and how fire is rendered, its not just the vampires that burn like that in the game so I could argue perhaps that this is some super heated flame and that both the vampires and the flame are made more flammable from the soul reaver environment. I am not following your twisted interpretation.

Thats not impressive, destroying stone? a large industrial furnace is often used to melt metal. not sure thats even a feat, burning a tree to ash is worthless.

2. Hes a powerful sorceror, there could be inumerable suggestions why he can survive.

3. But ariel is not in some unkown hell....and if she was, what is your point?

4. Again, so what? hes standing in hell, the heat does nothing to him so he would not mension it would he, this is the worst point of your quintette because assuming what I said was true he would not mension the flames.

5. However in that scene Kain does not look like any spirit iirc in the series, you brought up Ariel as a good example of a spirit, ghostly and levitating around.

Nothing points to that, only your claim, the only proof you have is that humans did it in some form, which I never disputed. I think suggesting they have more weapons than just spears when all previous, older versions of man have far more and indeed, this version have tech armour and flamethrowers is far more likely than humans defeating millions of tons of durability , infact not a single human body is shown there iirc, meaning it may have been a completly ranged effort. Why do you keep claiming siege weapons have to be inside Dumahs throne room?

Since when can you claim that? A: Defiance Kain sees Blood omen 2 as an alternate event, meaning he has all the powers he had if BO 2 never happened. B: What evidence do you have he lost all his power? Sure Kain is weakened, but I dont recall indication that specific powers are lost to him, only his memory which does not touch the Kain in this thread.

Again ignoring context, honestly I am sure if we were debating Dante from DMC, you would claim he cannot dodge because of several very context sensitive events where he did not.

Kain going all out to you is him "throwing" Raziel to the floor? , unfortunatly for bowser, Kain has anything form mist form, greater speed/reactions and a teleport to avoid any strike. Or he could just parry with his sword...killing bowser instantly in the process.

Where do you think it struck? his ears, his arms? show me your reach of logic that the wraith blade had no effect on weakening Kain. Holy shit you know nothing about this series and now your making Quanchi esque claims like how apprently purified Raziel at the end is the same as Raziel now...healing Kain on touch, are you serious? I dont know why you try and argue this if you cannot even do it properly, I dont know a ton on Bowser but at least I am not making ridiculous statements like that. Bowser has strength, but not the wraith blade.

You can see a dark mark of flesh, some blood...for all intents and purposes a scar. You think that blood only bleeds if its being pumped by a heart? because apprently its a hole, if its a hole you would see the broken rips, it would not be a dark mark like it would be if, lets say it was a scar amrite?



Originally posted by The Scenario
Barely any of these were even brought up, why are you assuming you've disputed them? That seems dishonest.



These are the same thing, why separate them? In any case, it's already known that a weakened Raziel can tear out a strengthening Kain's heart, in addition to the fact that Bowser is 20 times stronger than Raziel. Bowser can not only hurt Kain, he can poison him, which Kain is again known to be vulnerable to and can do absolutely nothing about.



Define "keep up with." Bowser is plenty fast and can teleport, not to mention fly.



Flying. Problem solved.



If you're referring to, say, Spirit Wrack, Spirit Death, or Blood Gout, not only were those lost due to his loss to the Srafan Lord, they are all projectiles. Slow projectiles, at that. Blood drain is especially doubtful.



Bowser's durability is likely to make that one impossible. What with supernova being generally > Kain. Or giant iron balls. Not to mention he can just go giant form.



Giant, teleport, flight, etc.



Well, so far Bowser is stronger than a guy that ripped out Kain's heart, exploits Kain's weakness to fire, and is capable of poisoning him, another weakness. That right there sounds like a win.

Not really, I was highlighting the fact that argueing physical ability is ridiculous when despite it being far more than enough in Kains favour in this thread, it is not Kains best asset.

Its shown that Raziel can do this to a damaged Kain struck by the wraith blade, context young man context, it is proven in SR 2 a max strength Kain can take a far more powerful blow with no damage at all. We have done this, less than 50% more pressure is being used if Bowser strike with his claws at raziels speed, I doubt hes capable of Raziels agility but even then, its barely enough imo to even pierce Kain. I think its hilarious how you bring up a reason for Kains heart missing earlier but then claim he can still be poisoned. Kain is by default immune to poison now isnt he.

"plenty" fast, I have not seen. Also show me him flying and teleporting.

sorry? I dont think flying is somehow going to negate time powers or the reaver, especially not when Kain can also teleport.

I will wait until you make a case for them being lost but why do you assume just because their projectiles Bowser can automatically dodge them all with ease? you know their homing projectiles? and that bowser is not even fast....not sure I have seen greater than human speed from him yet. Blood rain is doubtful? its the best one, since it is not a projectile, its basically just Kain moving his hand slightly and Bowser going into cardiac arrest, his heart bursting and him dieing.

What durability? an iron ball does not>>>millions of tons of force. Show me him "just going" giant form, and then give me the advantage of this because I can only see disadvantages.

Hes going to be teleporting a lot to escape TK, I cannot imagine when hes going to get time to hit Kain if thats all hes doing.

All 3 of those claims have been shot down and rely purely on bowser being able to hit someone who is far faster, can teleport and turn into mist at will to avoid a strike if need be. Then you forget one counter attack with the reaver and Bowser dies.

Kains defence is far superior to Bowser offence which is inferior to Kains offence which can easily defeat Bowsers defence, ergo Kain wins with ease.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Been a busy boy? I thought you had gone on holiday without telling

You miss the point, we dont know "thier just" human spears, you also said yourself as I agree thier human weapons, but your the one assuming spears, I could just as rightly claim (more so based on evidence) that they were fired from a device, enchanted by magic used by previous vampire hunters or series of other things. You have seen a launching device, although why do i have to show you the launching device? your just making claims and suggestions, you could no more prove they did it by hand and defeated 9 million tons of durability which is ridiculous than I can prove my far more likely theory that arguably modern man (flame throwers, tech armour) or at least a humanity that have had so many far more higher tech weapons (including those shown in this game) used an unseen siege weapon, sorcerous device etc.

Thats because it can kill them, your making the reaching leap that it destroys them fast based on an old games graphics engine and how fire is rendered, its not just the vampires that burn like that in the game so I could argue perhaps that this is some super heated flame and that both the vampires and the flame are made more flammable from the soul reaver environment. I am not following your twisted interpretation.

Thats not impressive, destroying stone? a large industrial furnace is often used to melt metal. not sure thats even a feat, burning a tree to ash is worthless.

2. Hes a powerful sorceror, there could be inumerable suggestions why he can survive.

3. But ariel is not in some unkown hell....and if she was, what is your point?

4. Again, so what? hes standing in hell, the heat does nothing to him so he would not mension it would he, this is the worst point of your quintette because assuming what I said was true he would not mension the flames.

5. However in that scene Kain does not look like any spirit iirc in the series, you brought up Ariel as a good example of a spirit, ghostly and levitating around.

Nothing points to that, only your claim, the only proof you have is that humans did it in some form, which I never disputed. I think suggesting they have more weapons than just spears when all previous, older versions of man have far more and indeed, this version have tech armour and flamethrowers is far more likely than humans defeating millions of tons of durability , infact not a single human body is shown there iirc, meaning it may have been a completly ranged effort. Why do you keep claiming siege weapons have to be inside Dumahs throne room?

Since when can you claim that? A: Defiance Kain sees Blood omen 2 as an alternate event, meaning he has all the powers he had if BO 2 never happened. B: What evidence do you have he lost all his power? Sure Kain is weakened, but I dont recall indication that specific powers are lost to him, only his memory which does not touch the Kain in this thread.

Again ignoring context, honestly I am sure if we were debating Dante from DMC, you would claim he cannot dodge because of several very context sensitive events where he did not.

Kain going all out to you is him "throwing" Raziel to the floor? , unfortunatly for bowser, Kain has anything form mist form, greater speed/reactions and a teleport to avoid any strike. Or he could just parry with his sword...killing bowser instantly in the process.

Where do you think it struck? his ears, his arms? show me your reach of logic that the wraith blade had no effect on weakening Kain. Holy shit you know nothing about this series and now your making Quanchi esque claims like how apprently purified Raziel at the end is the same as Raziel now...healing Kain on touch, are you serious? I dont know why you try and argue this if you cannot even do it properly, I dont know a ton on Bowser but at least I am not making ridiculous statements like that. Bowser has strength, but not the wraith blade.

You can see a dark mark of flesh, some blood...for all intents and purposes a scar. You think that blood only bleeds if its being pumped by a heart? because apprently its a hole, if its a hole you would see the broken rips, it would not be a dark mark like it would be if, lets say it was a scar amrite?





Not really, I was highlighting the fact that argueing physical ability is ridiculous when despite it being far more than enough in Kains favour in this thread, it is not Kains best asset.

Its shown that Raziel can do this to a damaged Kain struck by the wraith blade, context young man context, it is proven in SR 2 a max strength Kain can take a far more powerful blow with no damage at all. We have done this, less than 50% more pressure is being used if Bowser strike with his claws at raziels speed, I doubt hes capable of Raziels agility but even then, its barely enough imo to even pierce Kain. I think its hilarious how you bring up a reason for Kains heart missing earlier but then claim he can still be poisoned. Kain is by default immune to poison now isnt he.

"plenty" fast, I have not seen. Also show me him flying and teleporting.

sorry? I dont think flying is somehow going to negate time powers or the reaver, especially not when Kain can also teleport.

I will wait until you make a case for them being lost but why do you assume just because their projectiles Bowser can automatically dodge them all with ease? you know their homing projectiles? and that bowser is not even fast....not sure I have seen greater than human speed from him yet. Blood rain is doubtful? its the best one, since it is not a projectile, its basically just Kain moving his hand slightly and Bowser going into cardiac arrest, his heart bursting and him dieing.

What durability? an iron ball does not>>>millions of tons of force. Show me him "just going" giant form, and then give me the advantage of this because I can only see disadvantages.

Hes going to be teleporting a lot to escape TK, I cannot imagine when hes going to get time to hit Kain if thats all hes doing.

All 3 of those claims have been shot down and rely purely on bowser being able to hit someone who is far faster, can teleport and turn into mist at will to avoid a strike if need be. Then you forget one counter attack with the reaver and Bowser dies.

Kains defence is far superior to Bowser offence which is inferior to Kains offence which can easily defeat Bowsers defence, ergo Kain wins with ease. This man speaks the truth. Kain is just too strong for Poopa to even go against. With a flick of his wrist, he'll pop Pooopa's brain like jelly, or manhandle him with magic or brute force. The so-called King wouldn't last a minute with Kain in hand fighting, or with magic. Your cute and cuddly turtle thing, lost this round, hard. GG, not really.

I think its certainly clear mr Bowser had no real chance, especially when all his supporters can bring up is claw slashing and jumping as his offence/defence

Against Kain who has a long list of ways of finishing this match, none of which need to be physical anyway I think its clear the thread was made in the hopes of hyping up the whole SM galaxy nonsense, which even if were accepted as being as intense feats as the real celestial anomalies their apprently supposed to represent would not help bowser.

Not at all. Turtle soup, anyone?

Originally posted by Burning thought
Been a busy boy? I thought you had gone on holiday without telling


Like I always say, these threads don't end until real life interrupts.



Vorador versus guillotine. Guillotine wins..

Janos Audron versus Sarafan. Sarafan win.

Janos Audron versus Sarafan Lord. Sarafan Lord wins.

Countless Vampires versus Sarafan. Sarafan still win.

See, according to actual Legacy of Kain canon, vampires are always getting slaughtered by humans. This is nothing new. Heck, both Vorador and Janos are a hell of a older than Kain, known as two of the most powerful Vampires in existence, and are repeatedly destroyed by lesser forces. I've just given you quite a few examples of Vampires losing in melee, it is not such a surprise when it goes something like this:

Vampires versus humans. Humans win.

Now that I've gotten evidence out of the way, where is yours? Where is this fabled spear launcher? To all appearances, it does not exist except in your excuses. So give me a reason melee is not a viable explanation given what we know of Vampire combat prowess.



You might have a point if I didn't have two cutscenes proving you wrong. You certainly could argue that it is some super flame, but you would of course have no evidence. Unlike the two cutscenes I've shown you four times now.



Then I'm sure you'll have absolutely no problems showing me that furnace (which, as we all know, has no purpose but to put smoke in the air) destroying either stone or metal in same time frame as Bowser. As Bowser can destroy stone in a fraction of a second. Show me a furnace taking less than a minute if you want to compare. So far, burning a tree to ash is that same fraction of a second puts him rather above any other flame I know of.



One of the best being his power of life and death, and the underworld. Dark Chronicle in particular seems to agree. Ariel being dead as well makes it similar enough, it's not as if she can feel pain. Mostly because there is no reason for hell to be damaging. What's the fire going to do once you're already dead? Kain's emotions are the things being targeted here. Sure, maybe it's not damaging him as he is there, but his body is not even there. Trying to hell as fire resistance is on of the stupider things I've heard. You're already dead, you have no body, so what's the point? Causing pain is about the only thing left, and that doesn't happen in this case.



Everything points to it, actually; see above for Vampires being annihilated by purely melee efforts, and a bloody guillotine of all things. And sure, you certainly could say that it's more likely that some siege weapon was involved, but of course the lack of evidence would again deter that effort. You need to show them having one before you can claim they used it, y'know? Plus, humans seem to have this weird thing about retrieving and burying their dead. Well, about siege weapons in the throne room, that is sort of where Dumah was found: nailed to his chair. Your choices are then limited to a bunch of humans breaking in and stabbing him, or a bunch of humans somehow maneuvering a siege crossbow over the cliff, through Dumah's fortress, and into his throne room, where they then fired it point blank in three different directions in in order to nail him to his chair. Presumably while also fighting off the Dumahim trying to stop them.




The entire tutorial was Umah teaching Kain how to be a Vampire again. Since he apparently forgot several of his powers, and needed to be reminded that he could, among other things, float and turn into mist. I could also mention that he forgot the Whisper, but that one is stupid and never existed in the first place.

In any case I don't recall how the heck that timeline even works, so I won't pursue it. I was under the impression that Kain gaining new memories meant it happened retroactively, but whatever.



But Dante doesn't dodge. He lets himself get hit to show off his regeneration. Literally anyone can hit Dante.



He beat Raziel down, so yes. Bowser has teleportation, flight, and can breath fire in a huge area for a quite a while, preventing Kain from even getting close. I'm not really really seeing Kain's reactions here, and you've seen my evidence on his speed. Bowser could end it just by flying up and showering the area in fire, as he's been known to do. Bowser's a bit to durable for the Soul Reaver to take out that easily.



It struck his stomach, obviously, are you not paying attention? If you were, you would surely have seen Kain start to absorb Raziel, just like what happened at the end of the game. It's just what happens when they come into contact. Kain was absorbing Raziel, so he was getting stronger while Raziel got weaker. And yet, Raziel still rips his heart out.



Depth. That never stopped being a thing. You can quite clearly see a hole there, both when Raziel ripped it out and after. Seeing as the ribs were not visible when Raziel broke them, I see no reason for them to visible now.

Physical ability isn't in Kain's favor though; not sure why you would think so.



It's shown the source of Kain's healing kills him, yes. While weaker than normal, if you forget that bit of context. The Wraith Blade hardly matters when it struck a completely different area from Kain's chest (stomach, y'know) and merely touching Raziel has been shown to restore Kain. So Kain is stronger and Raziel is weaker, ye he still rips the heart out. Bowser, still being 20 times stronger than Raziel, is still capable of harming Kain in the same way. Though it's not like it really matters when Bowser can breathe fire everywhere. Sure, why not, it's not like the poison is even needed. Kain can't regenerate, can't be poisoned, seems a nice trade.




Bamf. Poof etc. Sky. High.

You'll notice I assume Bowser starts giant. That would be because he does as much.



If Bowser is out of reach, he is out of reach, regardless of how time is going. I'm sure you can show me Kain teleporting that high into mid air, what with his long range teleport only usable when his hands are empty and the dimension reaver far too short ranged.



All the videos I've posted so far have Bowser being faster than Mario while running or moving. The abilities also are not particularly long ranged; I doubt they reach even 10 meters. In any case, I have doubts they will have too much effect, given Bowser's typical immunity to one-hit kills and certain equipment that can prevent instant death. Or I could simply bring that Bowser cannot die. He simply comes back, animated by sheer hatred even after death. He's fought his way out of hell, then charged right back in, and had a good adventure in heaven, too, before he fought back to the real world.

I mean a drain drain won't work because Bowser has no blood.



He's fallen into the sun, a black hole, and was at the second big bang. That puts him above anything Kain could muster. Not to mention, of course, stuff like this. Oh dear, what would we do without this consistency.



It doesn't really change the fact that Bowser is really big. Possibly too big for Kain's TK. Nor can Kain's TK really stop Bowser from, say, calling down meteorites on top of him.



Not really. I personally haven't seen anything that makes Kain "far faster" than Bowser, in reactions or movement speed. Bowser has his own teleportation, not to mention summoning meteorites or using lightning powers. Bowser's far out of range of the Reaver and has protection against it.



I think you got that backwards. Starting to wonder if I should just add the Star Rod and get it over with.



Then again, Kain can't really do any of that. Kain has never popped anyone's brain, and his magic manhandling is limited to human sized opponents and so far has lifted nothing of Bowser's size. In brute force, Bowser wins again, what with lifting an iron ball larger than anything Kain has touched. Bowser doesn't need to go hand to hand with Kain, but he is quite capable of winning there.

I suppose people underestimate Bowser simply because his archenemy is Mario? Really, if you just take the time to look at what Bowser has done, you might realize he's a lot better than people give him credit for. But, if it comes to it, we could always just go back to the Star Rod.

Originally posted by The Scenario


Your examples are not soul reaver era vampires, the ones we are discussing that have Raziel looking for ways for killing them. Although to explain, Janos is not powerful like other vampires are, he is a natural vampire. Vorador is durability featless so I dont know what your trying to show although similiar to when humans beat Janos, Moebius' staff is there.

You have yet to prove vampires are losing in melee though, soul reaver era vampires at that. Unless moebius' staff was in this fight as well, in which case thats another thing Bowser does not have.

Give you a reason melee is not viable? 9 million tons of durability, Vampires are faster and stronger than humans, even old era ones and on top of that are pushed and defeated into their little citadel, if vampires could be slaughtered so easily without plot specific reason most vampires would be.

You sort of ignored my claim/counter, you posting the same videos of two vampires burning means nothing. Constantly showing old evidence that has been countered does not help your case, its hardly going to convince me. The LoK world is thick with heavy industry and pollution, it makes sense that flames will be even more intense, either way thats a fact that the SR world has that this verses doesnt, also know what this verses has what this one does not? any of the vampires your using to make your claim, who are vastly different to Kain.

The furnace combusts with such force, it fills the room and blasts the metal door off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMBp3prbh1E&feature=related#t=8m30s

Ill drop this underworld point, mainly because its irrelevent at the moment. I may bring it up later, but still bringing up how apprently "whats fire going to do once your dead" when Kain is still technically dead, alongside every vampire and many creatures in the series.

He forgot a lot of things, but thats BO2 Kain, an alternate Kain that the modern era kain percieved as new memories that did not replace old ones in the words of the developers, Kain knows everything from both verses.

When he lets them to or does not bother to dodge.

I dont know about that, because I assume he can only breath fire in one direction, a nice backstab would follow Bowser attempting to breath a single flame. Your evidence is not evidence on speed at all, thats your problem in threads, you post a video and then constantly claim it as definitive proof of your claim regardless of how your opponent recieves your "proof", its just context, I dont see a reason why Kain would hesitate to mist dodge, teleport or pull Bowsers head off. A bit too durable based on? hes yet to show 9 million tons of resistance, and I was not even talking about the power, it devours souls, I have yet to see bowsers resistance to this.

Erm no, again look into the story. Kain is not absorbing anyone, the Reaver is which has no benefit for Kain, hell Kain did not even know it was going to happen. The wraith blade strikes across Kains entire stomach and chest, its more than big enough and if you did not notice, the hole that Raziel made covers those areas.

Because Raziels hand is not in the way, nor is pouring bits of blood in the last scene, we get a clear look of what you belive is a hole...there are no ribs, broken flesh just a dark mark that your reaching to be a hole when the developers and I say a scar.

Originally posted by The Scenario


I think being faster, higher reactions, greater durability and the ability to kill in a strike is pretty far in Kains favour.

the most powerful weapon in the series and the only difference in Raziels favour from the last time he failed on harming Kain does not matter, stop reaching. I will come back to this point when you stop claiming Kain is somehow getting stronger and ignoring the reaver and previous evidence, I have FMV proof showing Kain is completly invulerable to a more powerful physical strike than Raziel here, difference being my evidence directly relates to the scene so unlike when you claim over and over how you have the evidence, this is relevent

First, what the hell....the first few videos are teleports, we dont know how long it took him to re-apear but I was talking physical speed. The second is mario running around an old version of him, not sure how thats relevent and the last ones are him flying around? fairly slowly at that, is that all you have?

Ok, so make your choice, is this super mario galaxy Bowser or the one holding up the iron ball. You realise this large bowser cannot even smash a small planetoid, probably smaller/lighter than the iron ball earlier and made of some sort of brick (filled with lava making it even worse a feat).

Your making the claim now that Kain can only teleport once? although tbh, distance is irrelevent since distance is speed/mass between two points and Kain does not physically travel distance and the dimension reaver can reach dimentional, I dont see how a few meters is going to be much to it and again the claim he has to put the reaver away to teleport just because he "did", you seem to have a problem with context/choice then claim someone has to, e.g. bowser "has" to fly to call meteors, bowser "has" to be large to even fly apprently. Also bowser will not be able to get out of reach when hes slowly moving like a slug in a time null zone...

Their range? their homing bolts of energy, they will find him eventually but again, hes not fast at all and gameplay claims wont help you here. Also how does that prove he has no blood.

I like how you make these claims as if that means anything, the sun is a tiny ball of lava, the blackhole has no more gravitational pull than a sink plug hole on water, it can barely pull in the tinty balls of rock that constist of Super mario galaxy planets. These are not feats at all, its not even clear if hes struck by anything or harmed. Again, how does this prove he can survive 9 million tons PSI? infact its more than that, possibly as much as 18 million if Kain uses his sword and rips out Bowsers soul at the same time.

Yes because thats going to be effective, slow moving meteors that can barely daamge the weak piece of rock they were fighting on.

Dimetional teleport is faster than anything Bowser has attacked/reacted to, Kains reactions are insane during the point zero seconds he makes actions between teleports. Out of range? one teleport, protection? where?

I am starting to wonder if you should just concede and try and look past your pride in the future rather than picking about gameplay mechanics and making such general claims.

I dont know what the star rod is, but I doubt it is standard issue equipment for Bowser.

-Quickly looked it up, what use is this rod going to be? you going to pull some no limit fallacy/overhype to claim its going to grant any wish he wants when he could not even defeat Mario? who later canceled its affects out with some sort of "beam" apprently. Just a rough research but unless you have really good feats for the rod, claiming a no limit fallacy for not standard issue equipment is useless.

Originally posted by The Scenario

Then again, Kain can't really do any of that. Kain has never popped anyone's brain

And bowsers never used his claws to slash through 9 million tons of durability. Also, Kain effects blood with his TK, proving he can target something as small as blood particles or as such a low density as a fluid within a body, he has also proven to be able to manipulate things at least as heavy as a human in armour, ergo he has everything he needs to suggest he could create TK pressure in Bowsers brain but he has actual actions to suggest (with his blood TK control) he can send blood spraying throught bowsers body, sending his heart into melt down.

Godamnit it, BT. I hate having to post in this but your math is wrong. As has been highlighted before. You use a falsely inflated number for Raziel's strength and attempt to multiply it by abusing the idea of a small surface area.

272 000 J. This is Raziel's strength per his best feat.

272 000 N.

1N = 0.224808943 foot pound force.

27200N = 61148/144 = 424 lb/i^2

That's about 30 tons over a full foot, here's where I'm a total jackass.

Raziel pierced Kain not with just the tips of his claws, but fit his entire hand into Kain's chest. This has a lot more surface area than a millimeter.

I once used a square foot for the combined size of OoT Link's hands to be generous. Let's use 1/4 of that, size square inches for the entire surface area of Raziel's considerably large hand.

This comes to 244592 pounds over thirty-six square inches. 122 tons total. Enough to tear Kain's heart clean out. What's that per inch, as per our standardized measurement? 6794.2 lbs/i^2. IE, it takes less than 4 tons of PSI to open Kain up.

Invulnerable to nine million tons of force my ass.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Your examples are not soul reaver era vampires, the ones we are discussing that have Raziel looking for ways for killing them. Although to explain, Janos is not powerful like other vampires are, he is a natural vampire. Vorador is durability featless so I dont know what your trying to show although similiar to when humans beat Janos, Moebius' staff is there.

All of the vampires are featless, really, you're just assuming they all share the same durability. Why can't I do the same? Vorador being an older vampire than Kain, should be more evolved according to canon. The thing you're doing here, that I find hilarious, is claiming that fledging vampires are more powerful than Vorador and Janos. It's not like Moebius' staff even affects durability, since it simply incapacitates vampires.



But I already did. Right here.



9 million tons of durability? Where exactly would the evidence for this be? You know, I already gave you so very, very many examples of vampires being slaughtered by humans. They were wiped out multiple times, in canon. Even the most powerful ones.



You haven't countered it, though. The reason I keep posting it is precisely because you have failed to counter it. What am I trying to prove? That vampires exposed to fire burn and die quickly. What is my evidence? Two different vampires exposed to fire burning and dying quickly. What is your counter? That Kain is somehow immune to this.



Congratulations, you have explosive force. Try actual heat next time. Still not exactly comparable to Bowser burning through stone.



Dead =/= undead. Evidence suggests it is not Kain's actual body, what with the waking up in a mausoleum.




Not really, since Bowser is known to spin while breathing.

Kain tries to mist? Bowser inhales him.

Further, Bowser is immune to the soul steal of a catch card. I don't think the Soul Reaver will do much better.



Not quite. If you remember the end of the game, Kain absorbs Raziel to be healed of his corruption (and injuries) while the Reaver absorbs the Wraith Blade. It barely matters that the Wraith Blade hit a different area of Kain's torso, mostly because of that.



The developers? You mean the people who put the hole on the character model? I think you're the one reaching for a scar, personally, since not much has changed from when Raziel first removed the heart and left the hole there.



And you're 0 for 4 on the attempts to make an argument. There's no evidence for Kain's supposed speed, and Bowser's durability far outstrips Kain's. Then, of course, Kain can't kill with a strike.



Well, to be honest, Soul Reaver 2 is rather poor at showing damage. Case in point: Compare this to, say, this. Seriously, look at this. Human Raziel shows no wounds, I guess that means he's unhurt, too? You're claiming that Kain was undamaged, but within the game damage is not often shown. That means it's possible that Kain was harmed, but it simply was not shown. That actually fits with the original scene. Then, of course, there's the fact that Defiance, as the later game, takes precedence over Soul Reaver 2.

You ask me to show you teleports and flight, then when I give them, jump on me for them not being speed feats? That seems dishonest to me. Especially since you have yet to show a single speed feat for Kain. In fact, you've given very little evidence here, so I don't particularly see why I should continue meeting your demands when you refuse to return the favor. In any case, the flight speed here is a bit faster than I've seen Kain move. Heck, this whole fight is just hurtling through space at high speed.

I also just like this cutscene.




Does it matter? Bowser is Bowser.



When did I ever claim Kain could only teleport once? Further, I'm sure you can prove that distance is irrelevant. Is this stated or indicated in any way in the Legacy of Kain games? I've gone through them all, of course, so I know you're just making them up, but go ahead and prove teleportation can cross any distance. Show me Kain teleporting beyond a few meters with the dimension reaver, or Kain using his long range teleport with the Reaver in his hands. I don't deny that Bowser can't call down meteorites unless giant, and he has never flown while small. I'm not claiming he can. And unless you forgot, Bowsr can teleport out of that time zone easily.



Only flay is homing, and it's an item. All the others are fully capable of missing and reach barely a few meters.

Have you played Bowser's Inside story? Mario goes through pretty much all of Bowser's body; muscle, fat, even DNA at one point. He fights against Bowser's immune system and interacts with any type of cell you care to name. Except one. Bowser's biology is beyond impossible, not having blood is the least of the problems with it.



Try again.. Bowser was still on that lava ball when started pulling in asteroids and then exploded. Or imploded, as the case may be, and then proceeded to tear apart all the starships and the Comet Observatory. After the Lumas got involved, it also took everything else in, including Princess Peach Castle and the rest of the Comet Observatory. And then exploded again. Pretty much all of that is still above anything Kain can dish out. Heck, even the bob-omb feat I just showed you puts him above Kain. Enough explosives to throw him into the sky, completely unharmed? Yeah, I don't see Kain hurting him, and he still can't get Bowser's soul.



Battlefield control. Bowser can essentially dictate spots where Kain can't be, not only because of the fact that they're on fire, but they create shockwaves as well. Should Kain be hit because he's focused on Bowser, even better.



Ah, good, so we allow gameplay? I guess that makes Bowser supersonic since all Mario characters can outrun soundwaves. Good going, there.



Hey, Bowser legitimately stole it. In any case, no, I'm not talking about Bowser's no limits invincibility, I'm talking more about Bowser being able to turn Kain into a card, augment his own strength, or strike Kain with lightning. Or heal himself.

Of course, it's not like Bowser needs the Star Rod to pull a baleful polymorph on Kain. Turning him into a brick will do fine.

So it isn't buried:
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Godamnit it, BT. I hate having to post in this but your math is wrong. As has been highlighted before. You use a falsely inflated number for Raziel's strength and attempt to multiply it by abusing the idea of a small surface area.

272 000 J. This is Raziel's strength per his best feat.

272 000 N.

1N = 0.224808943 foot pound force.

27200N = 61148/144 = 424 lb/i^2

That's about 30 tons over a full foot, here's where I'm a total jackass.

Raziel pierced Kain not with just the tips of his claws, but fit his entire hand into Kain's chest. This has a lot more surface area than a millimeter.

I once used a square foot for the combined size of OoT Link's hands to be generous. Let's use 1/4 of that, size square inches for the entire surface area of Raziel's considerably large hand.

This comes to 244592 pounds over thirty-six square inches. 122 tons total. Enough to tear Kain's heart clean out. What's that per inch, as per our standardized measurement? 6794.2 lbs/i^2. IE, it takes less than 4 tons of PSI to open Kain up.

Invulnerable to nine million tons of force my ass.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste


I dont know where you got any of this information from, what is this even based on? Hell 122 tons does not even account for half the weight of Bloodrains lowest estimate so far for the frustum. It seems like a fat lowball of wrong figuires, show me your full workins, weights and what this is even based on because your not going to convince anyone with a figuire of force lower than the objects weight.

Further, you seem lowball any numbers that are not Zelda orientated, you harp on about gigajoules for Link yet his force is about 2000000 kinetic energy.

Originally posted by The Scenario


Most vampires do not have Raziel looking for other ways to destroy them. Certainly not Janos and Vorador. Moebius' staff does a lot of things, for one it depowers the Soul reaver on Raziels hand, but not Raziel himself so it seems to affect spiritual things, point being is that in the location of the staff, most beings are far weaker than usual.

Since when is a few impaled vampires proving they were beaten in melee? scenario your imagination is almost as good as screampastes.

Raziel looking for more ways of defeating them, if they could not take Raziels claws he would not be looking for sunlight, water or sticks to impale them on. Raziel would just pull them apart like dry leaves.

Pointing out that everything in that rendering of graphics burns quickly sort of counters the claim vampires disitegrate in seconds as soon as you toss a match at them. Tbh, showing one vampire which is Zephon burning to death hardly makes it a comparison to Kain who is vastly different.

All the furnace uses is heat, which seems to be at such a high level of combustion it explodes, I dont know how much heat you need to create that much friction but I can point out its far more impressive tha anything you have shown of bowser, including burning trees , also as I said before, you use industrial furnaces to melt metal, not softer things like rocks and wood.

So hes according to you just spinning on the spot spitting fire balls? what a great tactic.......

Well if he can do so, Kains mist is simply under his control, further Kain can turn back in a blink of an eye so as soon as bowser stops breathing fire Kain is whole and jumping in with a reaver to the head.

Show me Bowser taking the catch card, you know the card that says it has a chance of failure anyway regardless of who its targeting.

You got it the wrong way round, Kain absorbs the wraith blade, Raziel gets taken by the reaver. It does not hit a "different" area though, it covers most of Kains chest/stomach and if you try and reach to claim the wound was a little to the left or right it means little, its the only advantage Raziel has since Kain was being invulerable before. Also I think its funny how you talk about newer games retconning old ones despite using poor evidence and context but using your own logic I could probably find a newer game with bowser in it with worse feats than older ones and try and claim hes been retconned, most with better context than your argument, like how he cannot destroy a small planetoid in SMG.

Again, you claim a hole, I think the developers and I are more in the rights than your strange belief theres some sort of deep hole still there, that does not bleed or reveal anything within Kains body, not even the rips.

Dimentional reaver and his attack on moebius is faster than anything I have seen from Bowser, further you have yet to prove durability and survival of a strike.

This is where your whole claim here falls on its head and you realise my evidence is an FMV, not the Soul reaver 2 graphics engine, meaning the developers tailored the FMV using a completly different engine to render it also we see a wound, the sword right through him shows damage even if we dont see a hole. Defiance does not contradict previous showings, your constant reaching and ignorance of context does.Originally posted by The Scenario


Youve not asked for it yet, although half the stuff I have shown you or is in the respect thread.

In that first video he seems to only move a few meters a second before teleporting, quite slow. Also what reaction feats does he have? Kains mind can react, work and create an action for him in fractions of a second, taking into account the human brain takes a second or so to do all of that, whats bowsers reactions to stop him from being killed before he can make a thought/action?

Well it does matter because some bowsers seem to have different power sources, sizes, abilities in use etc, for example this giant SMG bowser is weaker than the one who can lift the iron ball.

The part where you argue Kains teleport range as if thats the only way he can reach a flying bowser. I just did, teleportation does not cover distance exactly, no distance is passed. And Kain can teleport next to bowser again, the time distortion lasts a good 10-20 seconds and furthermore you act like Bowser is reacting and teleporting at normal speed while inside the null zone....hes slowed, considering Kain can attack in fractions of a second, I think this argument is over, only your reaching and irrelevent claims like fire breathing and size is going to continue.

Wrong, stun and the time freeze bolt are homing. Not to mension blood shower, lightning storm and perhaps others (inspire hate?) do not need a specific target and affect all those in an area effect, one which considering time powers, he will be in for a good while.

So your claim that Bowser does not have blood is backed by your belief Mario does not interact with blood at all? and one image that I do not even have any idea what its showing me.....more evidence please.

Show me the pressure forces for these feats, because so far all you have is a blackhole that can barely suck in Mario and small objects and a sun thats a blob of lava, your video confirmed this and the force Bowser has in his body from being launched could not even damage the ground on his landing, not that being thrown into the air in a cartoon is impressive, most cartoon/toon games do it and the force to launch someone into the air is not figuired in the millions of tons (also not this is in a small area of a body).

only Kain can within split seconds be at any spot on the battlefield while using mist, teleport etc so its useless, also Kain can be at any of those spots, the meteors are irrelevent, they will explode as the hit Kain.

No gameplay mechanics are present here chuck so I dont know what your reaching for, again...your arms must get tired and sore from all the reaching.

He turns 2d piecies of card into smaller piecies, hardly much of a feat since their all paper and it took a damn long time for it to work, Kain could kill him in a fraction of that time. Further, if this is paper mario now, Bowser gets torn in half with one of Kains claw slashes

I dont know what your showing me in the manuel, its fairly large so give me a page number, line please....not that it matters.

You also forget Kain at his weakest has been faced and completly untouched by far more powerful reality warping and transformation than that at Dark Eden, therefore Kain is immune to bowsers transformation attempts.

IT should be buried, Screampaste is to math what Quanchi is to logic.

Raziel's pillar topple. Earlier in the thread BR uses 272 500 ish joules for Kain's strength, IE, we're in agreement, I just sorted out for all to see that nine million tons is way, way off.

You'll note that gigajoules are > kilojoules.

You did not sort anything out, you took a number from an unkown source and came up with a figuire less than the base items weight and then claimed thats what Raziel used to get it moving, it does not even make sense besides the math which does not include the full workings on the weight.

Go back to the workings, and find out what you did wrong then come back in. Also BR was argueing something else entirely, so trying to claim your in agreement on that portion is pointless until he does similiar workings that give similiar figuires, not that Bloodrain was argueing with you anyway, its me you need to convince and at the moment 100 tons cannot move 300 tons.

also Raziels energy is; 2177883.376 overall. Spread over the top part of his claws to lift up the thing and push it so you lost a unit.

100 tons can easily topple a tall, slender, 300 tons.


You've proven long ago to be unreasonable, convincing you of anything is impossible. The numbers are there to show for posterity that your calcs are wrong, so everyone who reads this thread can see for themselves just how off base "NINE MILLLIONNN TONZ!" really is.

The irony of you telling my to find out what I did wrong is delicious when you can manipulate a sub-MJ level feat into nine million tons of durability. haermm

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
100 tons can easily topple a tall, slender, 300 tons.


You've proven long ago to be unreasonable, convincing you of anything is impossible. The numbers are there to show for posterity that your calcs are wrong, so everyone who reads this thread can see for themselves just how off base "NINE MILLLIONNN TONZ!" really is.

The irony of you telling my to find out what I did wrong is delicious when you can manipulate a sub-MJ level feat into nine million tons of durability. haermm

But its not slender, Raziel would have to beat 300 tons to even move it but more importantly, he moves it fairly quickly over a few meters meaning far more force than that (800 tons).

Thats wrong, you not being able to convince me only shows your lack of skill at debating it, Scenario, Bloodrain and utrigitos have convinced me many times before. Why would anyone read your scrawl as correct over mine? youve not really proven anything, just made a counter calculation that you claim with arrogance is more likely despite it missing a lot of context and not making sense in general.

My calculations cover all my claims and their fairly clear, all you did in your calculation is cut off a unit, claim Raziel punched instead of clawed Kain and then said I was wrong....considering your track record of poor comprehension of video games in general (lightning link, sonic whips, feats that dont exist) and your general downplaying of anything non Zelda in general its interesting why you even bothered to post in here with such flawed credability.

Tbh I was hoping for a more interesting mathmatical formulae that simply "he dint claw!!"

Raziel never lifts it, or supports it's full weight, he topples it.

Ironic ad hominem. I'm far more credible than you are, particularly on matters of math. Especially concerning your favoured character, your bias is legendary.


1. Strawman. My argument is not that he didn't claw.
2. Raziel did fit his entire fist into Kain's chest, meaning greater surface area.
3. Why does a math equation need to be complex or interesting to do it's job? Ideally math equations are simply and efficient, and easy to comprehend. I want my numbers to be clear so that people can follow along.

Kain's durability has been debunked, feel free to resort to denial, insults, ect. I've done my job, and will leave the rest to someone infinitely more patient than I am.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Raziel never lifts it, or supports it's full weight, he topples it.

Ironic ad hominem. I'm far more credible than you are, particularly on matters of math. Especially concerning your favoured character, your bias is legendary.


1. Strawman. My argument is not that he didn't claw.
2. Raziel did fit his entire fist into Kain's chest, meaning greater surface area.
3. Why does a math equation need to be complex or interesting to do it's job? Ideally math equations are simply and efficient, and easy to comprehend. I want my numbers to be clear so that people can follow along.

Kain's durability has been debunked, feel free to resort to denial, insults, ect. I've done my job, and will leave the rest to someone infinitely more patient than I am.

He has to pull it up first to topple it, it does not topple until he pulls it up AND pushes it.

what a lot of hot air, and I did not use ad hominem to claim your argument as wrong, I already said why your math is wrong before, I simply pointed out reasons why your less credible which are true. Bias? pff everyone is bias concerning their characters, I am proven to be far more reasonable in the bayonetta thread and in this one, letting arguments slide and even making calculations for the opposition.

1. You said yourself he hit him with more surface area, e.g. his hand...that was the meat and potatoes of your argument really other than the fact you chopped off a unit.
2. He striked with his claw tips, where are you getting the "entire fist" nonsense from?
3. If you want them to be clear then youve left out actual weights that your comparing to, distances. All you really did is toss in a number for joules and calculate from there, anyone can do that.

Debunked if you want to chop off a figuire, use a smaller figuire than necessery to move an object and then argue Raziel did not use his claw tips , tbh even if you could legitimately argue Raziel did less work, or that he only sent it moving a one or two meters rather than my calculated 4 you would not change Kains durability much, at best a few million. Hence why the only argument of concern is why you think, why anyone would think he did not use his claws when he clearly did....

Kain does not need 9 million tons of durablity PSI to reflect/survive damage from most KMC conventional characters.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Most vampires do not have Raziel looking for other ways to destroy them. Certainly not Janos and Vorador. Moebius' staff does a lot of things, for one it depowers the Soul reaver on Raziels hand, but not Raziel himself so it seems to affect spiritual things, point being is that in the location of the staff, most beings are far weaker than usual.

So you're still saying that fledglings are more powerful than Janos and Vorador. Gotcha. Still, it's not like the humans needed alternate ways to kill vampires, since impalement and fire, and water, and sound, and light, seem to work well enough. Moebius' staff just immobilizes them, though, as that's what Moebius says it does.



Ever since spears were considered melee weapons, so, always?



Yes, I'm sure that how the gameplay works. Oh wait no it doesn't. All Raziel says is that they heal from those light slashes, but of course impalement prevents that. He should have just stabbed them with his claws like in Soul Reaver 2 instead of of slashing. Because it's mostly regeneration anyway, not durability.



Zephon is Kain's descendant. He was literally born from Kain. So was Dumah, and both burn in cutscene. Hold on, I'm going to save this quote for later.



Not really. If you watch the cutscenes you'll that it's the gas igniting that causes that explosion. Bowser destroying trees, brick, and stone is still burning hotter.



Indeed. Everything's going to be on fire, and his back is protected by that darn fine shell of his. Hmm, Bowser can likely set himself on fire, since that doesn't bother him.



In which case Bowster still inhales him. Or switches back to fire.



Ha, who would waste a valuable item like that against something it's known to fail against? That's rather like trying to prove Mortanius is immune to Kain's control mind spell. No, a video of that is impossible since no one making a walkthrough is that stupid. Bowser as a boss just has the typical immunity to one hit kills like that. Times stops, too, damn that final boss immunity.

Maybe I could record it myself, but that would of course require me to buy the equipment, make a youtube account, and go find where I put that game and I don't really want to do that for a versus debate. I'm terribly sorry.



Sure, Kain's still healed by that stuff. The Wraith Blade hitting Kain would hardly matter in that case, even though it does hit a different part of his torso than Raziel. I'm sure you could try to use my logic, but I'm not sure it would work out too well for you. I think you're underestimating planetoids, personally.



Is there any word of god or are you just making up this developer stuff? Because while they are the ones who made the model of Kain with a hole in his chest, I wouldn't really claim they are on my side. Probably because they don't care. I've already explained why it doesn't bleed, of course. You are aware that Kain spent quite a while unconscious in the Demon Realm, right? More than enough time for what little blood there was to dry. Further, you have not answered my question: if the ribs were not visible when Raziel made the hole, why would they be visible later?



Bowser outruns soundwaves, man. That puts him way out of Kain's league. Sorry. I have already given you Bowser's durability in the multiple explosions and mini supernova and black holes he has tanked. And the soul resistance of the catch card.


This is where your whole claim here falls on its head and you realise my evidence is an FMV, not the Soul reaver 2 graphics engine, meaning the developers tailored the FMV using a completly different engine to render it also we see a wound, the sword right through him shows damage even if we dont see a hole. Defiance does not contradict previous showings, your constant reaching and ignorance of context does.


Your point? We do not see a wound in either case. With Raziel, there is no wound, no cut, no blood, or anything else. With Kain, same thing. Defiance does contradict the previous showing, though, since Raziel pierces Kain. Again, we've already determined that the context makes Kain even stronger than normal, and Raziel weaker, so it comes off as a much worse feat. Have you even tried to math the Defiance scene?



Show it in the thread, then. I'm decently sure most of Bowser's abilities are in his respect thread, but of course I didn't check it.

Heh, that's much more than a few meters a second. I've already told, you Bowser dodges and outruns soundwaves. He stomps Kain in that department.



He doesn't really seem weaker to me. After all, he is putting his fist through a planetoid. While he not really trying to destroy it, since he's just punching Mario.



Prove Kain can teleport beyond his shown range i.e: a few meters with the dimension Reaver. Bowser is kinda immune to Mario's time stop as well, so I didn't see much reason to regard the time field. In addition, Bowser's supersonic reflexes and movement will still be beating Kain in any case.



Stun is limited to humans, and Bowser is immune to time freezes. He does not have blood for blood shower, and there's no one else for Bowser to hate. I think that about covers it?



It's not really something you can just show, since it's kind of a whole game about Bowser's biology. Try six minutes of inside Bowser.



lol'd at the Toonforce. In any case, I've already shown you the black hole pulling apart starships and the observatory, both of which are of course durable enough to be space capable, and the observatory in particular is FTL. The star Bowser is in still exploded and sucked in multiple tons of rocks and crushed them together, else there would not have been a black hole. Also, please don't be ignoring the bob-omb explosion.



Sure, But if he wants to fight Bowser he'll have to stop eventually, and with all the shockwaves everywhere he can't stay on the ground. Not to mention they'll be hitting Kain from behind, where he can't see them.



Did you call me chuck? That's pretty funny. Still, both the dimensional teleport and outrunning soundwaves are gameplay, so either both are valid or neither is.



Haha, you have no counter.







More powerful? Reality warping? Prove that if you can. If you remember, none of the Circle was affected, it was stated to only affect the living, and, my personal favorite, there are humans inside it. Not to mention plenty of "please help, kind sir" inside the Eden castle.



As I recall, it was Screampaste who taught you about math. Good going, there.

Welly welly welly welly well. This is still running along, with alot of... interesting points. Just to reiterate; yes Bowser is stronger and yes if it lands a strong hit will do Kain in. Oh, and fire. Fire is always good.

Originally posted by The Scenario


more durable, sure because Janos is irrelevent and Vorador has power but I am not sure hes durable, dont forget he is evolved but he is not of Kains spirit, Kain being the most powerful being of the lot.

Well your claiming their spears, tbh I have yet to see spears look like that, the back end of the projectile suggests aerodynamics actually. If their spears, they must have some incredible enchantments to be able to melt through such durable beings.

This was storyline, e.g. cutscene, not gameplay mechanics so dont try and reach for that, you use more than enough of those. Raziel is looking for ways to defeat them, if he could do it with his bare hands, e.g. millions of tons of power he would not be pointing out how not only does he have to find other ways to finish them off but that they can apprently regen too quick for his power to destroy them, either way that is more than humans can do.

He can also do things Kain cant, just like how Kain has hundreds of things he can do that Zephon cannot, its a generalisation, assuming you could even hit kain with fire, then all he would have to do is mist form ftw and it would have nothing to combust since Kain would not be a physical vampire.

Gas igniting causes the fire, which explodes outwards from the heat taking out the door, either way its far more than Bowser has shown, least of all burning trees, hes not really shown anything that a basic, let alone industrial furnace like this one could not do and most of them cannot explode with such force.

Yes protected, against what? I doubt 9 million tons. "everyones going to be on fire", what a strange general claim.

Damn those precious gameplay mechanics , go and find a better argument please.

You know, doing all that would be a waste of time because it would prove what I knew already to be true, its just a gameplay mechanic and does not canonically happen. Most bosses in games are immune to one hit kills.

This does not seem to counter or even address my point, you just made another general claim. Underestimating them? their tiny balls of whatever material the mario world seems to shove into them, from grass, bricks and other colourful fun little things!

Neither the developers nor I can measure your crude perception, although here;

Jen and kyle
When Kain is purified by Raziel's sacrifice it heals the scar upon his chest. This is a visual representation of the physical and spiritual healing and purity that Raziel confers.

You made the claim that the heart is the only reason a wound may bleed, this is ridiculous. We dont know how much time, not long enough for the demons to rip him apart, so I dont know about all the blood from his wound to congeal. Because Raziels hand no linger fills the hole you belive is there, obscuring our view....

Gameplay mechanics, possibly not even canon either. You cannot gauge any of those things, you dont know the explosive force of the bombs, you dont know how much imapct they have and the super novas and black holes are even more ambigious.

Show what in the thread?

Originally posted by The Scenario


Countered, if we could use gameplay then Raziel can dodge cannon rounds/shells launched at close range, firearm projectiles are faster than sound in most cases.

You seem to have grabbed a gameplay mechanic and ran with it in all your posts as if you have not got any real counter for my claims. Its like a fan with a favourite character, you may as well just be saying "yeh but he winz anyways!"...

Well first prove Stun can only harm humans, its a claim and these others are still to be proven.

Noticed that almost all the environments in that video are red? like blood, or flesh filled with blood? I dont think you can prove Bowser does not have any blood just by posting a video that has no clear meaning.

I have seen the black hole pulling in and devouring tiny planetoids at slow speeds, proving it seems to have a weak gravitational pull for a black hole, theres nothing there that suggets Bowser has any super durability, infact I doubt durability is even worth mentioning, its your claims that attribute physics to these toonholes/novas.

With Kains reactions and speed Bowser will have been struck before he realised Kain had stopped, especally if hes frozen in time or nulled.

Well no, you see the dimentional teleport is not a mechanic, its a fairly scripted series of actions that are portrayed like this all the time, if you want to claim the gameplay mechanics, then you have to accept the fact that marios "sound waves" move slowly across the screen, depicting no real evidence of speed or real soundwaves, there seems to be a theme of Supermario objects being either really slow or otherwise non physical, probably toon logic.

It was more powerful because it covered large areas, e.g. an entire region of Eden wheras I see one slow charge up turning a handfull of little stars into cards from the Star rod, further it warped both beast, the weather etc so your claims here do not mean much. Seriously, you act like you know something about the series, then prove ignorance in the face of someone who knows it very well.

Screampaste tought me math? wow, last time I looked at my days in education qualified teachers did that. Screampaste started using PSI and gave me a figuire to divde by for PSI, everyones been using it since. unfortunatly, that does not stop him from messing about with figuires, lowballing etc which I have seen too often.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Welly welly welly welly well. This is still running along, with alot of... interesting points. Just to reiterate; yes Bowser is stronger and yes if it lands a strong hit will do Kain in. Oh, and fire. Fire is always good.

Bowser only has less than 50% more power behind a blow on Kain, only 50% more power than an attack that does zero to kains outer skin layer is hardly "do Kain in", infact its not necesserily likely to pierce Kains skin at all. So is lightning, time powers, soul stealing, blood draining and turtle soup.

http://i370.photobucket.com/albums/oo141/ShinTwist_ScreamPaste/thanksBT.jpg

Damn, It seems I am sometimes wrong afterall!

Although that does not contradict anything I have said, infact it points out I disprove of your shoddy use, you just happened to have some idea how to get PSI on sword edges

Bowser is much stronger than Raziel. Any feat (involving strength) he can do, Bowser can do better. Here included.

he may be able to do better, technically a shotgun slug can do more damage than a pistol round. This does not mean it can pierce a tank if you get the meaning

It'd do a better than the pistol would...

Originally posted by Burning thought
more durable, sure because Janos is irrelevent and Vorador has power but I am not sure hes durable, dont forget he is evolved but he is not of Kains spirit, Kain being the most powerful being of the lot.

Vorador is quite a bit older than Kain, no? He was thousands of years old when Kain was first born. The only real vampiric difference between Kain and Vorador is, shockhorror, Janos Audron's heart. Still, vampires are commonly taken down in ways that wouldn't make sense if they had durability. Heck, Melchiah was damaged by a portcullis. Even the weakest was still immune to Raziel's claws, and a gate just messes him up.



Spears, tridents, doesn't matter what they're called. They highly resemble the basic Sarafan melee weapon staff. Which they often used to impale vampires, and evidently that still works. The back end is actually rather the opposite of aerodynamic, there's too much weight on one side and the prongs aren't right for flying. Now then, they did not melt the vampires. Prove enchantment, and you still have not produced the claimed launching device.



Durability actually isn't hinted at even once. Raziel mentions regeneration, since his claws apparently can't cut deeply. After all, slashing seems to be all he's capable of. He really should have just impaled them on his claws like Soul Reaver 2. Impalement kills them, after all, since it prevents regeneration. As does fire, but it also kills them quickly, same as water.



You're ignoring Dumah. Why? Is it because he's too similar to Kain for your argument to work? Especially since he got impaled by humans, too. So what I have is a canon statement that vampires are weak to fire, and cutscenes of two different vampires burning to death in under 10 seconds. What you have is the insistence that Kain is different with no evidence. Further, we already know Bowser will just inhale him if he tries that.



It's not really from the the heat though. It explosive force from the gas. It's still less than Bowser has shown actually destroying stone instead of just pushing it around.



I don't think Kain can even exert 9 million tons. Bowser's shell is hardcore, considering it's tougher than his skin and Bowser's skin is near impossible to damage anyway. If he curls into shell, he becomes immune to spikes and can block attacks like energy blasts or spike balls. Also, Bowser has lit himself on fire. It'll be like fighting one of those fire Golems that make Defiance so tedious.



What? Bowser canonically inhales peoples and breathes fire, so not sure what you're talking about here.



Yet Bowser is still immune, whatcha gonna do?



Well, you weren't really making a point, just stating that Kain is invulnerable again despite evidence to the contrary. Raziel ripped Kain's heart out despite Kain absorbing him, and that overrides Soul Reaver 2. Fairly simple.

Oh, developers again. They aren't really here, so I don't know why you bring them up. And then, this is probably the most dishonest thing I've ever seen you do. Since you do of course know that they are referring to the scar on Kain's chest that was caused when he was murdered in Blood Omen and never healed. You know, this one. As you should know, Raziel heals that, too. In other words, wrong scar, nice try.

On the blood, yes, without a heart that stuff doesn't tend to flow. He was in the Demon Realm for a while, and does have some stains, but you can still clearly see a hole there. I don't know what you're seeing, but it's quite obviously intended to be a hole. That Kain failed to regenerate.



Hey, we both know the dimensional reaver is game mechanics, but that doesn't stop you. May not even be canon that he used it. We know the explosive force was enough to throw Bowser across the country, and we know that the supernova and black hole restarted the universe. All of them are unambiguously above what Kain is capable of.



How about your evidence?



You were already using gameplay at the dimensional reaver. In any case, please prove those were supersonic rounds.



Well, to be fair, so did you. All this hype about the dimension reaver since it's Kain's only speed feat. I'm simply returning the favor with Bowser's obvious speed.



Done.



Exactly my point, I told you it can't be proven by one video. Noticed that Mario fights against cells in that video, and at that size blood cells would be half Mario's height? Not sure what to tell you, but Bowser's body defies biology. For instance, his arm contains a cannon that fires balls of electricity, which serves to stimulate his muscles. Blood? What blood?



Being weak for a black hole is kind of like being slow for a bullet. Or small for a nuke. Dang, I can't seem to come up with any examples more powerful than a black hole or supernova. But really, if you look at that scene and think Bowser has no durability, I have to ask if I'm linking the video wrong.



But Bowser is immune to time stops, remember? Not to mention he's supersonic, so I doubt that'll work too well.



Well no, you see the boomboxer is not a mechanic, its a fairly scripted type of enemy that is portrayed like this all the time, if you want to claim the gameplay mechanics, then you have to accept that it description states it uses pure sound as an attack, despite how it may appear in game.







'k, you have failed to counter that there are humans in Dark Eden, both as enemies and mere peasants chained to the wall. That being in addition to the Pillar Guardians that were unaffected, as well as Vorador. That again in addition to the statement that Dark Eden is limited to targets that are both living and pure, of which Kain is neither. Not a feat.

As compared to Bowser trapping seven powerful spirits in cards and transforming all the people of the Mushroom Kingdom into bricks.

Originally posted by The Scenario
.


I dont know actually, Vorador died before the SR era, infact canonically he died in BO1 but appears in BO2 from an unkown reason, so at some point he was ressurected, I am not sure what happened to him since he is not mentioned in the following games, it would seem he was destroyed as most fans speculate by Kain. Either way, your argument holds no ground still, age is not the only defining power level of a vampire, Kain is still vastly more powerful. Your bringing up vampires other than those featured in the scene....your grasping at straws. Melchiah was considered the weakest of his brothers, to the point where his flesh was constantly rotting off by itself.

So according to your interpretation they look like Sarafan melee weapons (despite sarafan no longer excisting in that period unless your claiming this happened years ago before any evolution/devolution sort of ruining your argument anyway) and based on that you think you have fact to suggest they were meleed? not convincing, scenario you have a problem with burden of proof, first I have proven the vampires are durable with Raziels comments so its your turn to prove humans had a way to surpass this with your theory of meleeing them.

Why would raziel look for other means of killing them if their not durable and able to be ripped into piecies? You also misunderstand the use of spears, water etc, because its a constant period of damage meaning it will stay inside them unlike his claws, hence why when water recedes vampires come back to life, when spears are pulled out etc. If Raziel could tear them into piecies with his super strength, he would not need water, the sun etc.

Well because he was hit by a devasating furnace blast that also explodes with force of its power, its not just "catching alight". NO evidence? you have 2 gameplay videos of a fire render that does the same to most materials such as wood included, which all burn ridiculously fast, theres a consistency in the rendering that either things burn fast for the sake of gameplay or burn fast because of the SR environment. Further, Kain is different because he is millions of times more durable, you cannot melt down something so durable, not in time. This is not a turn based fight where Kain has to wait for bowser to choose another form of attack before doing an action, Kain can instantly go between mist form and solid, I have yet to see reason to belive Bowser can instantly go between suction and fire.

The gas consists of a few little ignitions and the fire burns first to the center for a good few seconds, so no gas ignites to fill the room, its the combustion of fire striking the center that makes it explode.

Well its proven he can exert more than enough force than Bowser can survive, which is so far nothing really gaugable.

Yeh, you know that was concering the soul card, its a gameplay mechanic, most bosses are immune to one hit kills and until you can prove it canonically happens your wasting our time.

How can a completly different scene overwrite/retcon a FMV previous? it cannot, it has different situations involved. Although I dont know how you spamming this claim is going to convince me.



Originally posted by The Scenario


Whats them not being here have anything to do with it? developers know more about their series as do I, yet you apprently think your a know it all so I have to use developers who know even more than I do. Also prove they were talking about the crease across Kains chest? because in the Q/A it is refered to as Kains death scar, the one made by Raziel is the only one where Kain is refered to or thought of as dead, considering he had lost the only piece of him that would push him into death.

Do we? because the last time I checked it was a scripted event that was used by the ability, it cannot even be a mechanic. Thats not really gaugable, give me an actual figuire, tbh it does not look like a feat at all since again when he lands he does not real damage to the environment. They restarted the universe ergo their physical forces are incredibly powerful? what are you even talking about, I hope you know because you need to explain this.

You cannot keep saying "your evidence", evidence for what? it seems to me most of my evidence has been covered, your still struggling with the scraps your trying to find, claiming your interpretations as fact (you like doing this, good old pride and arrogence) and then pretending its cold hard facts against someone who actually knows the series.

But the dimension reaver is a static, scripted event. Theres nothing with bowsers speed other than him flying around in SMG that is canon, happens and cannot be argued against. You rely on too many actual mechanics, when the dimention reaver although present in gameplay, is not a gamepaly mechanic, you have a problem with this whole difference between what is and is not a mechanic it seems.

Hang on, Kain suggests the human mind is fragile therefore you claim he can only use it on human minds? you need to prove Bowsers mind is less fragile than a humans, which is the correct logical path.

So you admit you cannot prove he has no blood, coolio.

I dont know what your saying here, you seem to be rambling. Some things can be slow for a bullet. Also i like how your reaching again, how apprently your feat is not good enough therefore I am not seeing what your talking about ,theres no durability to mension, we dont know the forces here. Where I can point out in a calculation that Kain can take 9 million tons PSI without harm, wheres your calculation for this black hole? so far I see weak sauce objects being pulled in, slowly....I doubt half of those objects even weigh in the millions of tons, let alone have a durability to equel it.

Two unproven claims.

The slow moving sonic blasts it fires are a mechanic, like a lot of in-game projectiles. Also, unlike the dimension reaver which is scripted, you need to prove the actual dodging is scripted, also saying their still as fast as sound is a leap of logic, since we cannot see that. Its also interesting to note the SM characters can be harmed by loud music, seems their ****ed against Kains varied powers and a sword.

Its unclear why there are peasants there, evidence suggests three things, A; gameplay mechanic, peasents have to be there for a health source for Kain, its not actually canonically mentioned by Kain or others iirc. B; Humans, creatures and weather are mentioned to be affected, so the reason why these specific people are not could be explained by the fact the circle simply use some slaves/people to experiment on. C, finally, it could be only the outer bubble that Kain walks through that changes the world as it passes over it and these peasents were put there after.

Nothing claims that, so its an amazing feat. Your playing on Kains "theories" on why he was not affected I assume?

a few little stars into cards=an entire region/country tranformed in many different ways, both weather, ground and beast was warped yet you think its not as impressive. You are easily the most stubborn KMC member, at least I change certain points, I think if it was anyone other than me you would agree but because you "have to" continue due to pride whatever, we will waste more time on this.

Originally posted by BloodRain
It'd do a better than the pistol would...

Well thats the point, despite its power (far more than the less than 50% more that bowser has over Raziels) it can never penetrate the tank.

Kinda pointless comparison. The bottom line is that Kain's best durability feat comes from a person with 1/20th to 1/2000th the strength that Bowser has here.

Its a perfect comparison, something that can take 9 million tons is not going to suddenly combust, be destroyed completly by someone who only has about 47% more energy, thats not even an entire half.

So, to make you understand I used the example of how a pistol cannot penetrate a tank, but something far stronger cannot either. Theres no reason to belive Bowser can do anymore than Raziel, but to let it slide the best it can do is small slices. Hes just as screwed as Raziel when he gets into deeper flesh and bone, not that this is going to make a difference.

Still a bad comparison, and not touching that 47% thing as.. well its obvious.

Bowser is up tp 2,000 times stronger than Kain's best durability feat. How is that not the end of the strength/durability deal?

Why is it? I think this thread is a very worthless matchup but it still has to be argued.

You did not counter me, 47% increase is not enough to convince me that he can do much more than make the smallest slashes. Therefore its not the end, also thats not more than Kains durability, thats potentially more than the resistance of Kains chest skin layer, the very top layer.

To go from that, to actually doing any major damage to Kain is going to be a long struggle, one Bowser cannot finish. If Bowser can do twice as much damage, then we may be getting somewhere to suggest he can certainly make a nasty gouge in Kains body. But theres plenty of arguments that have been made before to suggest Kains durability is irrelevent, they have been argued long before kains durability was even brought up in an argument.

Personal opinion? And wasn't looking to counter. 300 tons to 6,000 tons is a 2,000% increase. 272KJ to 544MJ is a 200,000% increase. AKA the best thing Kain has survived is only at 5% or 0.05% of Bowers strength. Or another way; Raziel has 272KJ of strength on claw tips < Bowser has 544MJ on claw tips.

Its basically like saying took a punch from a strong person then going ahead to think they could survive getting hit by a speeding car. A punch and a speeding car have a percent difference equal to Raziel and Bowser's strength fyi.


What Scream posted was correct, the only alterations being the area of the hand if accuracy is needed.

Your looking at basic strength numbers, I have done the math on page 4 to calculate how much PSI bowser is doing. His energy is only about 46% more on an equel ground level compared to kains durability.

No, its like as I said, taking a pistol shot without damage and then suggesting a shotgun would completly destroy the same object, theres no real reason to suggest it.

Show me how Screams post was correct, you apprently now agree claw tips are not the surface area? And that somehow Raziel punched with his claws or something?

Originally posted by Burning thought
Your looking at basic strength numbers, I have done the math on page 4 to calculate how much PSI bowser is doing. His energy is only about 46% more on an equel ground level compared to kains durability.
So some calculation you came up with made a guy who was 2,000 time stronger then another only doing 1.5x the damage? Energy/Area=PSI. What you did was some strange calc.

Originally posted by Burning thought
No, its like as I said, taking a pistol shot without damage and then suggesting a shotgun would completly destroy the same object, theres no real reason to suggest it.
Example with guns and a tank... example that has the same energy difference on an organism... Yeah, I think I'll stick to the latter example if you don't mind. How about another way; I'm pretty sure an average person can take a 100J weak punch without trouble. You know what will badly hurt them? A good 400J punch. A 5,000J full-body charge will break bones and knock them out. And what about a two-seater car at 40mph aka something with 2,000 times the force of the weak hit they took? Deadly.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Show me how Screams post was correct, you apprently now agree claw tips are not the surface area? And that somehow Raziel punched with his claws or something?
"(...)the only alterations being the area of the hand if accuracy is needed." Means I don't care to think about if the claw tips alone or the whole hand is needed, so change if ya want. Scream did the correct formula of, like I said above, Energy/Area=PSI.

Energy: Max force they can produce in pounds / Area: Hand\claw\whatever area in Square Inches = PSI:.. Pounds per Square Inch.


Using this method with a three claw tip hand area of 0.0048in2: (basically what Scream did but with alterations to the area)

272 000 N.

1N = 0.224808943 foot pound force.

272000N = 61148/0.0048 = 12739166.7 lb/i^2

So 6,369.58 tons of PSI(half that with one arm strength if needed). Now put in Bowser's 122296065 foot pound force over a four claw tip 0.0064 area. To save you the work the answer is a good 9.5 mil tons of PSI.... lol at reversal. Leaving his PSI at 150,000% of Raziel's. Then again, never was a fan of PSI. ^^;



Weight: Bowser's 20x stronger. Joules: Bowser's 2,000x stronger. PSI: Bowser's 1,500x stronger. }All that times Kain's best durability feat.

Originally posted by BloodRain
So some calculation you came up with made a guy who was 2,000 time stronger then another only doing 1.5x the damage? Energy/Area=PSI. What you did was some strange calc.


Example with guns and a tank... example that has the same energy difference on an organism... Yeah, I think I'll stick to the latter example if you don't mind. How about another way; I'm pretty sure an average person can take a 100J weak punch without trouble. You know what will badly hurt them? A good 400J punch. A 5,000J full-body charge will break bones and knock them out. And what about a two-seater car at 40mph aka something with 2,000 times the force of the weak hit they took? Deadly.


"(...)the only alterations being the area of the hand if accuracy is needed." Means I don't care to think about if the claw tips alone or the whole hand is needed, so change if ya want. Scream did the correct formula of, like I said above, Energy/Area=PSI.

Energy: Max force they can produce in pounds / Area: Hand\claw\whatever area in Square Inches = PSI:.. Pounds per Square Inch.


Using this method with a three claw tip hand area of 0.0048in2: (basically what Scream did but with alterations to the area)

272 000 N.

1N = 0.224808943 foot pound force.

272000N = 61148/0.0048 = 12739166.7 lb/i^2

So 6,369.58 tons of PSI(half that with one arm strength if needed). Now put in Bowser's 122296065 foot pound force over a four claw tip 0.0064 area. To save you the work the answer is a good 9.5 mil tons of PSI.... lol at reversal. Leaving his PSI at 150,000% of Raziel's. Then again, never was a fan of PSI. ^^;



Weight: Bowser's 20x stronger. Joules: Bowser's 2,000x stronger. PSI: Bowser's 1,500x stronger. }All that times Kain's best durability feat.

Its spread over more area, bowser has 4 claws not 2. The calc is fairly clear, Kain has a few million tons PSI durability, Bowser does a tad more than that but thats not quite enough to suggest hes going to "wreck" Kain.

Your talking about low numbers and durability on normal people. The tank at least in my example points out how a vastly durable object cannot be so easily damaged by slightly more force.

Energy is the specific force they dealt in that scenario, e.g. the energy Raziel used in roughply a square foot (Scream seemed to use it for a pair of hands or something) is around 800 tons force. The area, gives you the spread the energy is moving across.

First, where are you getting 272 000N from, what weight and velocity are you using to get that. here is mine;



Where is your piece that looks similiar to get energy below my joules?

Other errors include now calculating three claws, Raziel leads with just two, the other is like a thumb at the back of his hand. Second, you dont half the force just beacause one arm was not used, if you did it would be the same for bowser but one arm does not equel half your strength.

Bowser cannot do 9 million tons PSI because the area of his force is not in a square inch, I think you have warped your math a little here with the confusion of what PSI is, being force within a square inch, not the force within the area bowser is actually affecting. That being, 108,000 tons per 0.0064 sample compared to Kains durability in a similiar area being just over half that. As I said, around 46%

Edit- Looking back, it looks like you have mistaken the objects mass as the newtons? judging by the fact their roughply the same figuires in your work.

haermm Told myself I wouldn't post more than 2 lines when getting back to this thread. Such a short lived plan.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Its spread over more area, bowser has 4 claws not 2. The calc is fairly clear, Kain has a few million tons PSI durability, Bowser does a tad more than that but thats not quite enough to suggest hes going to "wreck" Kain.
Raziel's area: 0.0032in2 with two claws, 0.0048 with thumb. Bower's area: 0.0048 with three, 0.0064 with thumb. So this tiny area difference is nearly as strong as the massive strength difference? Lets see, 0.0048/0.0032 = 1.5x in Raziel's favour... A small blip to what strength brings to the table.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Your talking about low numbers and durability on normal people. The tank at least in my example points out how a vastly durable object cannot be so easily damaged by slightly more force.
The tank is more metaphoric, mine is more literal. I used a literal example on a human scale with scaled up would be like Kain's.. at least more than a tank would. And on that; A pistol can't pierce a tank but anti-tank guns can.. guns that are 2,000-3,000x stronger than a pistol. That 2,000x difference is quite convenient, no?

Originally posted by Burning thought
Energy is the specific force they dealt in that scenario, e.g. the energy Raziel used in roughply a square foot (Scream seemed to use it for a pair of hands or something) is around 800 tons force. The area, gives you the spread the energy is moving across.
And that scenario is the most they can generate, aka 272KJ. Thats the energy thats needed to preform the feat. That figure is the most the character can produce at any given time. That is the characters max strength they can put into a strike and the figure used.

Originally posted by Burning thought
First, where are you getting 272 000N from, what weight and velocity are you using to get that. here is mine;

-... . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .--.

Where is your piece that looks similiar to get energy below my joules?

300 tons lifted at 1.4m/s. Measured and timed. Divide your joules by 8.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Other errors include now calculating three claws, Raziel leads with just two, the other is like a thumb at the back of his hand. Second, you dont half the force just beacause one arm was not used, if you did it would be the same for bowser but one arm does not equel half your strength.
Wasn't paying attention to what scene was being used. Give or take. The character uses the arms as the major thing in both feats, taking one away would dampen the result. Unless one believes that Raziel could punch the obelisk for the same results and a lift. The two handed thing is becoming as tiresome as PSI, personally.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Bowser cannot do 9 million tons PSI because the area of his force is not in a square inch, I think you have warped your math a little here with the confusion of what PSI is, being force within a square inch, not the force within the area bowser is actually affecting. That being, 108,000 tons per 0.0064 sample compared to Kains durability in a similiar area being just over half that. As I said, around 46%
So Pounds per Square Inch means... Pounds per Square Inch?? O: *le gasp* Both Scream and I know how to calc PSI, he may be better as I can't really be bothered to thing about those lil buggers. ;3

Energy in lbs/Area in in2=PSI. Its that simple. Joules to Newtons, Newtons to lbs force, divide that by in squared = result.

Originally posted by BloodRain
haermm Told myself I wouldn't post more than 2 lines when getting back to this thread. Such a short lived plan.


Raziel's area: 0.0032in2 with two claws, 0.0048 with thumb. Bower's area: 0.0048 with three, 0.0064 with thumb. So this tiny area difference is nearly as strong as the massive strength difference? Lets see, 0.0048/0.0032 = 1.5x in Raziel's favour... A small blip to what strength brings to the table.


The tank is more metaphoric, mine is more literal. I used a literal example on a human scale with scaled up would be like Kain's.. at least more than a tank would. And on that; A pistol can't pierce a tank but anti-tank guns can.. guns that are 2,000-3,000x stronger than a pistol. That 2,000x difference is quite convenient, no?


And that scenario is the most they can generate, aka 272KJ. Thats the energy thats needed to preform the feat. That figure is the most the character can produce at any given time. That is the characters max strength they can put into a strike and the figure used.



300 tons lifted at 1.4m/s. Measured and timed. Divide your joules by 8.


Wasn't paying attention to what scene was being used. Give or take. The character uses the arms as the major thing in both feats, taking one away would dampen the result. Unless one believes that Raziel could punch the obelisk for the same results and a lift. The two handed thing is becoming as tiresome as PSI, personally.


So Pounds per Square Inch means... Pounds per Square Inch?? O: *le gasp* Both Scream and I know how to calc PSI, he may be better as I can't really be bothered to thing about those lil buggers. ;3

Energy in lbs/Area in in2=PSI. Its that simple. Joules to Newtons, Newtons to lbs force, divide that by in squared = result.

Well its quite large, also I am not sure I have seen Bowser using his claws yet, I thought he used all 4 in a swipe?

Well actually, not all anti-tank guns can damage all tanks although whats interesting here is that assuming your correct in an anti-tank guns being 2000-3000x stronger, Bowser cannot create 2000-3000x more force, infact he can just about create 0.5x more force.

Max strength but not max force, because velocity is relative. Dante performing a strength feat, will create less force using said strength to punch at a normal humans speed, than he would at full speed.

Can you show me the calculation please like I just did, I am not dividing Joules by 8 until I know why? also it seems theres some disparity, why is your velocity only 1.4 meters? It seems the only real argument so far is the distance raziel moves the thing, you wont get much less than millions of tons of durability PSi for a meter or so though.

Well two hands or one is irrelevent, because it would be comparative to Kains durability anyway. Kains durability over an area of skin is still the same, even if Bowser used two hands the area spread would simply increase comparatively.

Well you said bowser does 9 million PSI, which confused me because he does not strike for PSI, he strikes for pounds per 0.0064 if you get my meaning.

You cannot make joules to newtons for the guys reason on Yahoo so I dont know what you mean, also tranfering it is simply going to give us the same result but in newtons;



We already have a result however without transfering to newtons anyway.

1.5 is larger than 2000? I see.. hard to throw a thumb into a strike unless for a thrust.

Actually yes, he can produce 2000x the force Raziel can. Obelisk at 1.4m/s is 1/2000th that of the iron ball at 10m/s.

The character cant produce more energy then their max. And attack speed to increase force isnt used here, thought we said this already. I remember Nemebro saying something like unless the verse shows force increasing due to different speeds then its not used, with everyone agreeing. If you disagree take it up with people to change it. Otherwise it stays as it is.

Isnt it obvious from the weight and speed I gave? O.o change the weight to kg, square the speed, times together and half for joules to equal 272KJ. Also Im questions you sense of scale.. A meter or so isnt much but 1.5x is, and is above 2000x..

Not irrelivent if you want to place a figure on his durability.

You keep it as PSI as its easier to compare then changing Kain's durability to see what he can take under 0.0064 in2.

1 Joule = 1 Joule per second which can be changed into Newtons. Anyhow: Energy in lbs / Area in in2 = PSI. How you got 9 million from 272KJ over claw tips is anyone guess.

May as well lay it out for you:
Raziel; (272,155.422kg*2)/2 = 272,155.422 Joules. (V=2 as 1.4^2 = 1.96, but just incase, upped)
272,155.422 Joules over 2 claw tips with a total area of 0.0032in2.
272,155.422*0.224808943 = 61182.9728 / 0.0032 = 19,119,679 lb/in2
= 9,559.8395 tons.

Bowser: (5,443,108.44kg*(10*10))/2 = 272,155,422 Joules. (Must have left it as kinetic energy last time /shrugs)
272,155,422 Joules over 3 claw tips with a total area of 0.0048in2.
272,155,422*0.224808943 = 61182972.8 / 0.0048 = 12,746,452,700 lb/in2
= 6,373,226.35 tons.

Bowser's PSI is 666.666 times that of Raziel's.

To sum up again: Bowser has 20x the weight lift, 1000x the joule output and 666.666x the pressure.

Originally posted by BloodRain
1.5 is larger than 2000? I see.. hard to throw a thumb into a strike unless for a thrust.

Actually yes, he can produce 2000x the force Raziel can. Obelisk at 1.4m/s is 1/2000th that of the iron ball at 10m/s.

The character cant produce more energy then their max. And attack speed to increase force isnt used here, thought we said this already. I remember Nemebro saying something like unless the verse shows force increasing due to different speeds then its not used, with everyone agreeing. If you disagree take it up with people to change it. Otherwise it stays as it is.

Isnt it obvious from the weight and speed I gave? O.o change the weight to kg, square the speed, times together and half for joules to equal 272KJ. Also Im questions you sense of scale.. A meter or so isnt much but 1.5x is, and is above 2000x..

Not irrelivent if you want to place a figure on his durability.

You keep it as PSI as its easier to compare then changing Kain's durability to see what he can take under 0.0064 in2.

1 Joule = 1 Joule per second which can be changed into Newtons. Anyhow: Energy in lbs / Area in in2 = PSI. How you got 9 million from 272KJ over claw tips is anyone guess.

May as well lay it out for you:
Raziel; (272,155.422kg*2)/2 = 272,155.422 Joules. (V=2 as 1.4^2 = 1.96, but just incase, upped)
272,155.422 Joules over 2 claw tips with a total area of 0.0032in2.
272,155.422*0.224808943 = 61182.9728 / 0.0032 = 19,119,679 lb/in2
= 9,559.8395 tons.

Bowser: (5,443,108.44kg*(10*10))/2 = 272,155,422 Joules. (Must have left it as kinetic energy last time /shrugs)
272,155,422 Joules over 3 claw tips with a total area of 0.0048in2.
272,155,422*0.224808943 = 61182972.8 / 0.0048 = 12,746,452,700 lb/in2
= 6,373,226.35 tons.

Bowser's PSI is 666.666 times that of Raziel's.

To sum up again: Bowser has 20x the weight lift, 1000x the joule output and 666.666x the pressure.

I dont know where your getting the whole 2000 from, just because the ball is 2000x heavier or something? or 20x heavier? I think your trying to calculate forces from there and getting wrong figuires, my calculation starts from beginning to end and gets him at about 46% more force, its not small but its not enormous, certainly not 2000x more than Raziels.

The iron ball did not move 10m/s, unless you mean when he tossed it? he was powered up by the brothers.

Of course its used otherwise where do you think velocity comes from the get joules? without any velocity mass is standing still, e.g. not much if any force if its not moving. I like how you claim that apprently Nemebro invented some sort of "movement does not increase energy" and then stick to it like its a forum rule, I dont think even Nemebro would even say something so strange especially when it would make the Chronos feat almost useless for Kratos, and most of the legend of zelda feats far weaker than they already are.

Weight and speed? but we cannot calculate speed, nemebro said so? my calculation does that, it does not come to 272kj, as you see juels have another unit, you seem to have lost one in translation.

Well the 0.0064 figuire is the one thats most useful, theres no point in having PSI if bowsers force does not cover that area. Kains durability does, bowsers force does not because hes not able to create the force of his finger in a square inch.

Its not actually anyones guess as its in calculation form, you ignoring it does not change anything. Instead of just saying its wrong, then putting your own calc and saying its better, why dont you go back with your own red pen and say where my calculation does not add up? like I did below to yours?

A few errors there, like someone else likes to say time to get my red pen out.

-1.4 meters is a lowball figuire for how far Raziel moved the obelisk, it went above his height, which by itself is over 2 meters and before it reaches the apex of its climb for its own weight to pull it down it moves at least another meter, maybe two which Raziel pushes it into doing, it could be argued Raziel also gave it some of its speed on the way down but its hard to gauge how much.

-Your final figuire is not in square inch, its in a fraction of that because its across 0;0032.

-As I said above, Bowser does not move it without aid, infact he struggles quite a lot with holding it, the ball you mathed at 6k tons, I think its time i took a look at it myself because I think were more likely looking at it in hundreds of tons, not thousands like you belive. Just to be clear, where are your own figuires/calculatiosn on it?

-Finally, the force he used on the obelisk is not the same series of events he used on Kain. So I dont know why your squaring the result across Raziels claw tips when he did not use that energy through his claw tips, only through his hands which would come to roughly 800 tons, not thousands.

You seem to haev the right practice, but until I see Bowser slashing with just 3 claws, not 4 like I imagine he does I am unsure if 3 is the number to divide by. Also, more importantly is Bowser usually punches, in almost every video I have of him, he punches suggesting his claws are not durable enough to take his strength, kinda like how human nails are too frail to use as claws. But again, we may as well argue distance Raziel moved and pushed it first, before the calculation. At the moment you dont seem to think he pushed it above his height when I belive he pushed it at least 2/3 meters more.

I would put my own math down again but at the moment, theres no point because its in the respect thread but more importantly, your calculating the wrong numbers because Raziel does not use his claws on the obelisk, nor does he use both hands on Kain.

Originally posted by Burning thought
I dont know where your getting the whole 2000 from, just because the ball is 2000x heavier or something? or 20x heavier? I think your trying to calculate forces from there and getting wrong figuires, my calculation starts from beginning to end and gets him at about 46% more force, its not small but its not enormous, certainly not 2000x more than Raziels.
Its 1000x, misscalc. The weight is 20x heavier, the force he can produce is 1000x as much. Said this like 3 times before I swear.. Any calculation with the positive being 1000x and the negative being /1.5 leaving an answer only 1.46x the original figure is a problematic one.

Originally posted by Burning thought
The iron ball did not move 10m/s, unless you mean when he tossed it? he was powered up by the brothers.
It moved its own diameter in a second, technically its 11m/s then.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Of course its used otherwise where do you think velocity comes from the get joules? without any velocity mass is standing still, e.g. not much if any force if its not moving. I like how you claim that apprently Nemebro invented some sort of "movement does not increase energy" and then stick to it like its a forum rule, I dont think even Nemebro would even say something so strange especially when it would make the Chronos feat almost useless for Kratos, and most of the legend of zelda feats far weaker than they already are.

Weight and speed? but we cannot calculate speed, nemebro said so? my calculation does that, it does not come to 272kj, as you see juels have another unit, you seem to have lost one in translation.
Nope, not in the actual attack. The max force possible is used. Actually Neme, DP, Scream and I think two others. I believe what they say is true. And it makes sense as there is no way a character can do more than 100%, unless you disagree. Max = Max.

Wow... ok have to ask; Can you read? If yes, do you read my posts? ''The character cant produce more energy then their max'' Eg Link. His max comes from throwing a pillar at x speeds = 100% of what he can do. You cant further increase a characters max.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Well the 0.0064 figuire is the one thats most useful, theres no point in having PSI if bowsers force does not cover that area. Kains durability does, bowsers force does not because hes not able to create the force of his finger in a square inch.
......*sigh* Its to compare. One has a weight over B the other has weight over D, the only way to see if the former weight is above the latter is to get B to equal D or vise versa. Either way the numbers will be changed when comparing so we leave them all over A.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Its not actually anyones guess as its in calculation form, you ignoring it does not change anything. Instead of just saying its wrong, then putting your own calc and saying its better, why dont you go back with your own red pen and say where my calculation does not add up? like I did below to yours?
Nah, feels like an ass move tbh. All the point are already obvious and have been explained.

Originally posted by Burning thought
A few errors there, like someone else likes to say time to get my red pen out.

-1.4 meters is a lowball figuire for how far Raziel moved the obelisk, it went above his height, which by itself is over 2 meters and before it reaches the apex of its climb for its own weight to pull it down it moves at least another meter, maybe two which Raziel pushes it into doing, it could be argued Raziel also gave it some of its speed on the way down but its hard to gauge how much.
Its only a lowball figure if I say it was a lowball figure when getting it. It wasnt. It was the figure. The speed comes from how fast he could lift it, which was 1.4m in a second. Went back to measure it again; in 1 second he gets it to a his slight leaned in chest height which is, compared to his height, 1.4m. Measured and timed. Want that red pen back?

Originally posted by Burning thought
-Your final figuire is not in square inch, its in a fraction of that because its across 0;0032.
...what are you talking about son? Its 6,1182.9728 lbs over 0.0032in2. The steps after that are over 1in2.

Originally posted by Burning thought
-As I said above, Bowser does not move it without aid, infact he struggles quite a lot with holding it, the ball you mathed at 6k tons, I think its time i took a look at it myself because I think were more likely looking at it in hundreds of tons, not thousands like you belive. Just to be clear, where are your own figuires/calculatiosn on it?
And as I said above thats from the catch, strength has to equal that or it would not have been stopped. Urm... /shrugs/ Scene asked, I answered. Search around. But good luck making a 5.5mR iron ball anywhere less than a few thousand tons. A little tip, you'd have to get it to a size of 2mR or density of... oats to make it equal the frustum.

Originally posted by Burning thought
-Finally, the force he used on the obelisk is not the same series of events he used on Kain. So I dont know why your squaring the result across Raziels claw tips when he did not use that energy through his claw tips, only through his hands which would come to roughly 800 tons, not thousands.
Frustum lift = Max possible force = Most he can force upon Kain.

Am going to give a lol that the the 'errors' are how you got different speeds, something, your wishful doubts and wanting to use more than 100% strength. You would be a terrible teacher, just doodling over my homework with your red pen .-.

Originally posted by Burning thought
You seem to haev the right practice, but until I see Bowser slashing with just 3 claws, not 4 like I imagine he does I am unsure if 3 is the number to divide by. Also, more importantly is Bowser usually punches, in almost every video I have of him, he punches suggesting his claws are not durable enough to take his strength, kinda like how human nails are too frail to use as claws. But again, we may as well argue distance Raziel moved and pushed it first, before the calculation. At the moment you dont seem to think he pushed it above his height when I belive he pushed it at least 2/3 meters more.

Then go look for it? No ones stopping you.. Dude listen to yourself here; "The monster-thing has claws, he has used his claws before, but wont and/or cant here." And is it logical to compare Bowser's claws to human nails..?

Ok ok ok, the lift. As he flips it instead of lifting the whole thing up and chucking it we have to use the speed in which only Raziel was the factor in moving it, and that was until he gets it near chest height. The clean. You appear to be using the jerk, problem is that as he's flipping it the obelisks own weight will be a major factor in it falling, by my eye half the weight was on the tipping axis. Only 51% of the weight would need to be over that tipping weight to make Raziel's play in it a bare minimal. I'm looking at it and honestly, I cant see where you got a 4m/s push from anywhere.

Originally posted by Burning thought
I would put my own math down again but at the moment, theres no point because its in the respect thread but more importantly, your calculating the wrong numbers because Raziel does not use his claws on the obelisk, nor does he use both hands on Kain.
Well no offense but I don't need to see it. Raziel can not generate more than 100% of his maximum force. Must be the third time saying that... stop making me repeat myself.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Its 1000x, misscalc. The weight is 20x heavier, the force he can produce is 1000x as much. Said this like 3 times before I swear.. Any calculation with the positive being 1000x and the negative being /1.5 leaving an answer only 1.46x the original figure is a problematic one.


It moved its own diameter in a second, technically its 11m/s then.


Nope, not in the actual attack. The max force possible is used. Actually Neme, DP, Scream and I think two others. I believe what they say is true. And it makes sense as there is no way a character can do more than 100%, unless you disagree. Max = Max.

Wow... ok have to ask; Can you read? If yes, do you read my posts? ''The character cant produce more energy then their max'' Eg Link. His max comes from throwing a pillar at x speeds = 100% of what he can do. You cant further increase a characters max.


......*sigh* Its to compare. One has a weight over B the other has weight over D, the only way to see if the former weight is above the latter is to get B to equal D or vise versa. Either way the numbers will be changed when comparing so we leave them all over A.


Nah, feels like an ass move tbh. All the point are already obvious and have been explained.


Its only a lowball figure if I say it was a lowball figure when getting it. It wasnt. It was the figure. The speed comes from how fast he could lift it, which was 1.4m in a second. Went back to measure it again; in 1 second he gets it to a his slight leaned in chest height which is, compared to his height, 1.4m. Measured and timed. Want that red pen back?


...what are you talking about son? Its 6,1182.9728 lbs over 0.0032in2. The steps after that are over 1in2.


And as I said above thats from the catch, strength has to equal that or it would not have been stopped. Urm... /shrugs/ Scene asked, I answered. Search around. But good luck making a 5.5mR iron ball anywhere less than a few thousand tons. A little tip, you'd have to get it to a size of 2mR or density of... oats to make it equal the frustum.


Frustum lift = Max possible force = Most he can force upon Kain.

Am going to give a lol that the the 'errors' are how you got different speeds, something, your wishful doubts and wanting to use more than 100% strength. You would be a terrible teacher, just doodling over my homework with your red pen .-.



Then go look for it? No ones stopping you.. Dude listen to yourself here; "The monster-thing has claws, he has used his claws before, but wont and/or cant here." And is it logical to compare Bowser's claws to human nails..?

Ok ok ok, the lift. As he flips it instead of lifting the whole thing up and chucking it we have to use the speed in which only Raziel was the factor in moving it, and that was until he gets it near chest height. The clean. You appear to be using the jerk, problem is that as he's flipping it the obelisks own weight will be a major factor in it falling, by my eye half the weight was on the tipping axis. Only 51% of the weight would need to be over that tipping weight to make Raziel's play in it a bare minimal. I'm looking at it and honestly, I cant see where you got a 4m/s push from anywhere.


Well no offense but I don't need to see it. Raziel can not generate more than 100% of his maximum force. Must be the third time saying that... stop making me repeat myself.

The force is not 1000x, I dont know why you keep claiming that when I have proven its under twice as much, 1000x would be far more.

It did not move at all thanks to bowser and your calculating its diameter at 11 meters? not even close, you dont even have to work anything out to realise bowser could fit into the dimater a few times only, if hes a meter, meter and a half across thats not 11 meters.

100% is something youve pulled out of nowhere, your ignoring momentum. A car going at speed is going to impact heavier than it going at 10 mph, basic physics seriously please tell me you dont dispute that, if you do and its the same for those you mentioned then none of you know basic physics

Can you logically deduce momentum? do you know something going faster impacts harder than something moving slow? Maybe there was no point in making firearms because humans throwing bullets by hand create the same pressure according to you, afterall momentum does not mean anything.

Compare what? its like me saying Raziel has billions of tons of force over a square inch just because his claws can make millions of tons in 0.0032, its not logical.

Well the points are obvious, for some reason however you cannot grasp them.

1.4 meters? impossible, in 1 second Raziel moves it over himself and pushes it. At 3:31 he pulls it up and by 3:32 has pushed it a few meters, then after that it would be unfair to claim raziel pushed it all the way since obviously it takes its own weight.

son, as if your arrogent tone is going to impress me, I am not even sure if your my senior "sport"

Its more a durability feat, Bowser being anchored and has strength superior to the ball, he does not use his own strength to push it back. The iron ball is about 3/4 meters in dimeter max assuming bowser is about a meter.5 wide. Bowser is not wider than that.

Wrong, frustum lift is the highest strength feat, if you move that strength at higher speed, or through his claws hes getting more force silly.

Why should I? I want the opposition to actually provide something. Has he used his claws before? when? because some incarnations of bowser seem to be stronger than others. Illogical? well its illogical that bowser punches all the time if he create far more pressure just by using his claws, therefore I can only suggest its because his claws are not that strong.

You cannot see?, from the ground to Raziels chest about 1.4 meters but it does not stop there, he lifts it over his head and pushes it a meter or two before its own weight takes it. It does not start moving until Raziel pushes it so you cant ignore the second push, it goes a meter or so. The figuire would at least be able 2.5-3 meters. Again, you wont get less than millions of tons per square inch of force.

How do you think I feel? I have to repeat myself to you, scenario and will probably have to do so again. Difference is you dont know how momentum works, so its like fighting a losing battle if you dont know the basics. Also no offence, but you are argueing bullshit, how much of a difference do you think it will make if you can prove Bowser can actually pierce Kains first skin layer that means nothing. He will never do any real, major damage, his hand will get stuck a few inches in.

Further, he will never get to striking Kain, so far he can just fly around.

Originally posted by Burning thought
The force is not 1000x, I dont know why you keep claiming that when I have proven its under twice as much, 1000x would be far more.
The max force Raziel can produce is.... holy groundhogs day Batman! Its the same thing over again. Raziels max output = 272KJ, Bowsers max output = 272MJ.

Originally posted by Burning thought
It did not move at all thanks to bowser and your calculating its diameter at 11 meters? not even close, you dont even have to work anything out to realise bowser could fit into the dimater a few times only, if hes a meter, meter and a half across thats not 11 meters.
How did it get to him in the first place. Start there and come back to the reply. Hang on hang on, Bowser is 1m tall?... Bowser? OK first off he's 2m tall compared to Mario's official height which was posted in the original calc. Second is that the radius is more than twice his height.

1m? .__.

Originally posted by Burning thought
100% is something youve pulled out of nowhere, your ignoring momentum. A car going at speed is going to impact heavier than it going at 10 mph, basic physics seriously please tell me you dont dispute that, if you do and its the same for those you mentioned then none of you know basic physics
Nope. 100% is the most force Raziel can deliver, which so happens to be flipping the obelisk. He cant do more that his maximum. Youre obviously not getting it. To start do you think that the people who calc physics things here dont know the basics? Or the people that taught you dont know the basics? Gonna say this one more time so perk your ears; Go ask someone else. I supported it, didnt fly here. You want it, go get it brah

Originally posted by Burning thought
Can you logically deduce momentum? do you know something going faster impacts harder than something moving slow? Maybe there was no point in making firearms because humans throwing bullets by hand create the same pressure according to you, afterall momentum does not mean anything.
So you dont read them. Making me sad face in the face. Reply to the post next time, dont drift off into other things.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Compare what? its like me saying Raziel has billions of tons of force over a square inch just because his claws can make millions of tons in 0.0032, its not logical.


Originally posted by Burning thought
Well the points are obvious, for some reason however you cannot grasp them.
Was talking about my points, not yours... pretty clear really.

Originally posted by Burning thought
1.4 meters? impossible, in 1 second Raziel moves it over himself and pushes it. At 3:31 he pulls it up and by 3:32 has pushed it a few meters, then after that it would be unfair to claim raziel pushed it all the way since obviously it takes its own weight.
0-1 second = obelisk is lifted to Raziels chest = 80% of his height = 1.4m. Used my phone stopwatch, dont just use the vids time. Thats not precise.

Originally posted by Burning thought
son, as if your arrogent tone is going to impress me, I am not even sure if your my senior "sport"
O__o Why is it that whenever I use words like kid, sport, son etc you think Im being arrogant or speaking in a demeaning way? Its how I speak normally irl, the more I post the more likely Im gonna use irl speech. Dont be so sensitive.. ^^;;

Originally posted by Burning thought
Its more a durability feat, Bowser being anchored and has strength superior to the ball, he does not use his own strength to push it back. The iron ball is about 3/4 meters in dimeter max assuming bowser is about a meter.5 wide. Bowser is not wider than that.
Without the strength to counter it he would have collapse under the force. Not gonna touch that, just suggest you talk another crack at it. By that very vague answer of '3/4m' kinda tells me that you barely looked at it. Passing thought.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Wrong, frustum lift is the highest strength feat, if you move that strength at higher speed, or through his claws hes getting more force silly.
The max strength you can exert on something is the max force you can exert on something. If he could increase it with more speed then he would have done so in the lift .

Originally posted by Burning thought
Why should I? I want the opposition to actually provide something. Has he used his claws before? when? because some incarnations of bowser seem to be stronger than others. Illogical? well its illogical that bowser punches all the time if he create far more pressure just by using his claws, therefore I can only suggest its because his claws are not that strong.
'Cos you want it? Scene's already covered this, take his word or go do it yourself. Falls down to two things; 1. Scenario's covered this. Or 2. Really... really not touching a pointless thing like this :/ No offense, but if a monster has claws and has used his claws then he can use his claws.

Originally posted by Burning thought
You cannot see?, from the ground to Raziels chest about 1.4 meters but it does not stop there, he lifts it over his head and pushes it a meter or two before its own weight takes it. It does not start moving until Raziel pushes it so you cant ignore the second push, it goes a meter or so. The figuire would at least be able 2.5-3 meters. Again, you wont get less than millions of tons per square inch of force.
*adjusts imaginary glasses* all youre doing is getting the distance and ignoring the time. He lifts it 1.4m in 1 second aka 1.4m/s for his primary clean lift. How about this, I'll gladly accept the jerk part if you can give the specifics of; 1- The exact distance. 2- The exact time. 3. The exact percentage that was balancing on the axis then the distance that the obelisk needed to be moved so that 51% of its weight is over the axis so it can continue to move by itself with the aid of gravity and how much strength was needed to do so.. Whenever youre ready.

Originally posted by Burning thought
How do you think I feel? I have to repeat myself to you, scenario and will probably have to do so again. Difference is you dont know how momentum works, so its like fighting a losing battle if you dont know the basics. Also no offence, but you are argueing bullshit, how much of a difference do you think it will make if you can prove Bowser can actually pierce Kains first skin layer that means nothing. He will never do any real, major damage, his hand will get stuck a few inches in.
As long as you say things like "you dont know how momentum works" the more you'll fail to get your point across. Because if you did read this thread you'd know that Im just following customs despite what I wanted. You're sounding mad bro o: don't be~ Not really, I'm arguing that the vast difference in strength will allow Bowser to shred through Kain. But as you're so sure you're right lemme know, have you managed to convince anyone of the durability you want? Am curious. As if your workings were right no one would be able to object to it.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Further, he will never get to striking Kain, so far he can just fly around.
Right now, don't really care. :3

Originally posted by BloodRain
The max force Raziel can produce is.... holy groundhogs day Batman! Its the same thing over again. Raziels max output = 272KJ, Bowsers max output = 272MJ.


How did it get to him in the first place. Start there and come back to the reply. Hang on hang on, Bowser is 1m tall?... Bowser? OK first off he's 2m tall compared to Mario's official height which was posted in the original calc. Second is that the radius is more than twice his height.

1m? .__.


Nope. 100% is the most force Raziel can deliver, which so happens to be flipping the obelisk. He cant do more that his maximum. Youre obviously not getting it. To start do you think that the people who calc physics things here dont know the basics? Or the people that taught you dont know the basics? Gonna say this one more time so perk your ears; Go ask someone else. I supported it, didnt fly here. You want it, go get it brah


So you dont read them. Making me sad face in the face. Reply to the post next time, dont drift off into other things.





Was talking about my points, not yours... pretty clear really.


0-1 second = obelisk is lifted to Raziels chest = 80% of his height = 1.4m. Used my phone stopwatch, dont just use the vids time. Thats not precise.


O__o Why is it that whenever I use words like kid, sport, son etc you think Im being arrogant or speaking in a demeaning way? Its how I speak normally irl, the more I post the more likely Im gonna use irl speech. Dont be so sensitive.. ^^;;


Without the strength to counter it he would have collapse under the force. Not gonna touch that, just suggest you talk another crack at it. By that very vague answer of '3/4m' kinda tells me that you barely looked at it. Passing thought.


The max strength you can exert on something is the max force you can exert on something. If he could increase it with more speed then he would have done so in the lift .


'Cos you want it? Scene's already covered this, take his word or go do it yourself. Falls down to two things; 1. Scenario's covered this. Or 2. Really... really not touching a pointless thing like this :/ No offense, but if a monster has claws and has used his claws then he can use his claws.


*adjusts imaginary glasses* all youre doing is getting the distance and ignoring the time. He lifts it 1.4m in 1 second aka 1.4m/s for his primary clean lift. How about this, I'll gladly accept the jerk part if you can give the specifics of; 1- The exact distance. 2- The exact time. 3. The exact percentage that was balancing on the axis then the distance that the obelisk needed to be moved so that 51% of its weight is over the axis so it can continue to move by itself with the aid of gravity and how much strength was needed to do so.. Whenever youre ready.


As long as you say things like "you dont know how momentum works" the more you'll fail to get your point across. Because if you did read this thread you'd know that Im just following customs despite what I wanted. You're sounding mad bro o: don't be~ Not really, I'm arguing that the vast difference in strength will allow Bowser to shred through Kain. But as you're so sure you're right lemme know, have you managed to convince anyone of the durability you want? Am curious. As if your workings were right no one would be able to object to it.


Right now, don't really care. :3

Ok a statement, now what evidence is there to support this? your saying that regardless of what happens concerning speed, assuming in the next LoK game (if there was one coming) he gained lightspeed, he would not be able to increase his force? yes or no?

No, bowser is about 1.5 meters wide, if that. You can fit his width in the image about 3 times across the diameter of the sphere, ergo ihe sphere is about 4/5 meters in diameter, I dont know how the hell you got 11 meters.

You did not counter my post, just continued spamming the whole "he cant do more than 100%" rubbish which does not even make sense. Clearly you dont know the basics because you dont realise how velocity/momentum can increase force. I think its funny how when your calcing Saviour for Dante, you take into account the speed of his arm, yet I cannot do so for Raziels arm on Kain

Hypocrite mr drift off into other things.

And it does not stop at his chest, you see during the same 1 second it lifts above him and he pushes it, it does not start moving until he pushes it forwards.

Because it sounds demeaning, its used by other posters to be demeaning, e.g. Quanchi.

He did collapse under the force, his face was nearly touching the ground, its just his thick turtle legs seem to have some great absorbtion. It was vague because I am yet undecided on how wide Bowser is and was leaving room for another half meter since hes a wide character, either way it does not come to 11 meters, nowhere near close.

Again, rubbish because as we have seen Raziel is excerting more force on Kain using the PSI area of his claws. So you trip yourself up again, and again, momentum is relevent. Something moving faster is going to impact with more force than something slower.

You did not really counter me here, I want to know when he has used his claws and against what, I dont have to look around the internet to find it myself when its my oppositions argument to prove hes using his claws here. There could be a good reason why he uses punches most of the time.

Exact distance is 3 meters, 2 meters above raziel and the push can send it another meter. Its pretty clear by;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3oDJym8UNw&feature=related#t=3m31s

That the obelisk is not only above Raziels head, a fair amount above as he pushes it.

All this "if you did read this thread" nonsense, I think if you did read this thread you would realise by now Kain is not going to be fazed much by Bowser. Your argueing a lie, there is no "vast" difference, and your math is messed up because you belive momentum does not affect force or at least, when concerning Kain and not Dante or another character you favour it does not, further where is this customs nonsense from because I dont belive anyone has said momentum is irrelevent to force other than you. Are you trying to make an appeal to audiance fallacy here? My math clearly points it out in factual data, and your speaking as if nobody is unbias on KMC and would not simply ignore or claim something is wrong just to continue their argument even if its wrong. You have not even tried to address the math in question tbh, you have tried making more equations that you claim are more likely, as I said perhaps if you bothered to go back and look at the math and point out at least one error you can get a toffee for trying.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Ok a statement, now what evidence is there to support this? your saying that regardless of what happens concerning speed, assuming in the next LoK game (if there was one coming) he gained lightspeed, he would not be able to increase his force? yes or no?
'The' statement. Unless he's shown to get stronger, nup. I suggested that Dante used his Mach15 attack speed to opponents here. Shot down like Santa Jack. If its the general practice of places like here or obd, I'm not too bothered to question it. Like I said, ask the others if you want to change it. Wouldnt mind giving Dante a 25mil m/s velocity~
Originally posted by Burning thought
No, bowser is about 1.5 meters wide, if that. You can fit his width in the image about 3 times across the diameter of the sphere, ergo ihe sphere is about 4/5 meters in diameter, I dont know how the hell you got 11 meters.
Before I tell you why, why dont you go and tell me your evidence to why youre sure that he's 1.5m wide? Feel like placing a tenner down that you're guessing.


That should be enough time. Right, now here's why; Mario was confirmed to be 1.52 cm tall, compared to him Bowser is 2m tall. On my screen Bowser in the scene is 1cm tall and when he's holding the ball his width as you call it is 1.5cm ie 3m. Now on the screen the ball is 5x wider than him ie 10m, and that without getting to the center line. 11.5m as in the original post, being made of iron makes it 6000 tons.
Originally posted by Burning thought
You did not counter my post, just continued spamming the whole "he cant do more than 100%" rubbish which does not even make sense. Clearly you dont know the basics because you dont realise how velocity/momentum can increase force. I think its funny how when your calcing Saviour for Dante, you take into account the speed of his arm, yet I cannot do so for Raziels arm on Kain
For good reason, its a badass point who doesn't play by the rules. Lol how does 'you cant do more than 100%' not make sense to you? Oh clearly thats whats happening cos its so obvious that no one on games vs understands velocity in relation to force even though they're the ones that taught it to you.. I think its funny that you think a statue is an organism~ The Savior doesn't have muscles for his strength, it only has its own weight to literally throw around. Now Raziel, he isn't a moving piece of rock. On the other hand if you want I can use the standard method and have the Saviors strength be equal to its body weight. FYI Dante's strength would skyrocket. Like I said, ask the others if you want to change it.
Originally posted by Burning thought
Hypocrite mr drift off into other things.
Typo's totally throwing me off what you're trying to say. I've said several time now that it should but doesn't, I wanted it but didn't get it, and how you should ask the others if you want to change it.
Originally posted by Burning thought
And it does not stop at his chest, you see during the same 1 second it lifts above him and he pushes it, it does not start moving until he pushes it forwards.
Does he move it 4m in 1 second? No he does not. How far does he lift it in a second? 1.4m. Thus the speed at which he lifts it it 1.4m/s.
Originally posted by Burning thought
Because it sounds demeaning, its used by other posters to be demeaning, e.g. Quanchi.
Geez even my teachers didn't get this touchy-feely about random unrelated words, though you should know that if I wanted to assert dominance, arrogance or be demeaning in speech... you'd know about it. ^^
Originally posted by Burning thought
He did collapse under the force, his face was nearly touching the ground, its just his thick turtle legs seem to have some great absorbtion. It was vague because I am yet undecided on how wide Bowser is and was leaving room for another half meter since hes a wide character, either way it does not come to 11 meters, nowhere near close.
Collapse means facepalming the ground. The fact that he was able to support the force coming at him means he has the strength to do so. Look above for teh answer of weight.
Originally posted by Burning thought
Again, rubbish because as we have seen Raziel is excerting more force on Kain using the PSI area of his claws. So you trip yourself up again, and again, momentum is relevent. Something moving faster is going to impact with more force than something slower.
Thats a change in PSI, not force. The medium in which he releases his force may change but the force itself has its limit, in this case 272KJ. Tripping up... wha? O-o
Originally posted by Burning thought
You did not really counter me here, I want to know when he has used his claws and against what, I dont have to look around the internet to find it myself when its my oppositions argument to prove hes using his claws here. There could be a good reason why he uses punches most of the time.
That might be because I wasn't looking to counter you in the slightest lol If you want specific examples then ask Scene, though I'm fairly sure he has already done so in this thread
Originally posted by Burning thought
Exact distance is 3 meters, 2 meters above raziel and the push can send it another meter. Its pretty clear by;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3oDJym8UNw&feature=related#t=3m31s

That the obelisk is not only above Raziels head, a fair amount above as he pushes it.
'Can' no cans. So you say that the jerk portion is 3m.. and didnt say the time because? You only did 1 out of 3 things. From the push to land is about 2s, 3 meters over 2 seconds. Thats 1.5m/s. He pushed a certain percent of the obelisk at 1.5m/s and if even a little percent of its weight is over the axis (its near half) then the clean will give a higher result then the jerk... but seriously man, how on earth did you get 4m/s as the speed?
Originally posted by Burning thought
All this "if you did read this thread" nonsense, I think if you did read this thread you would realise by now Kain is not going to be fazed much by Bowser. Your argueing a lie, there is no "vast" difference, and your math is messed up because you belive momentum does not affect force or at least, when concerning Kain and not Dante or another character you favour it does not. Are you trying to make an appeal to audiance fallacy here? My math clearly points it out in factual data, and your speaking as if nobody is unbias on KMC and would not simply ignore or claim something is wrong just to continue their argument even if its wrong. You have not even tried to address the math in question tbh, you have tried making more equations that you claim are more likely, as I said perhaps if you bothered to go back and look at the math and point out at least one error you can get a toffee for trying.
Oh, youre actually replying to that part. Was not expecting that. Also was not expecting the lil rage rant <-< >-> alrightythen.. And if you read my first reply to you you'd know that ''If Bowser can get his hands on Kain he wins, if not than probably Kain if his powers work against him.'' is my stand on this without looking much into it. Looking above we see that your Dante/Savior example didnt work, so that bias claim fails too. Whats that fallacy got to do with this? Isnt it the same as your traditional ''Youre not convincing me'' part? Shouldnt the guy that said that be able to convince others of his point? And people dont ignore proper math. I'm not a favorite around here, and Dante is hated more then most characters debated on games vs yet when I give a legit calc, those people except it. Nup, dun need ta. #1 Get the joules from (weight*speed2)/2 #2 turn joules to lbs force/area for PSI. The only difference is your #1.5 stage that, like Ive said numerous time, to take it up with the others instead of complaining to me. Admittedly this was a strange little... 'episode', especially from you bro `-` .....want a toffee?

Originally posted by BloodRain
'The' statement. Unless he's shown to get stronger, nup. I suggested that Dante used his Mach15 attack speed to opponents here. Shot down like Santa Jack. If its the general practice of places like here or obd, I'm not too bothered to question it. Like I said, ask the others if you want to change it. Wouldnt mind giving Dante a 25mil m/s velocity~

Before I tell you why, why dont you go and tell me your evidence to why youre sure that he's 1.5m wide? Feel like placing a tenner down that you're guessing.


That should be enough time. Right, now here's why; Mario was confirmed to be 1.52 cm tall, compared to him Bowser is 2m tall. On my screen Bowser in the scene is 1cm tall and when he's holding the ball his width as you call it is 1.5cm ie 3m. Now on the screen the ball is 5x wider than him ie 10m, and that without getting to the center line. 11.5m as in the original post, being made of iron makes it 6000 tons.

For good reason, its a badass point who doesn't play by the rules. Lol how does 'you cant do more than 100%' not make sense to you? Oh clearly thats whats happening cos its so obvious that no one on games vs understands velocity in relation to force even though they're the ones that taught it to you.. I think its funny that you think a statue is an organism~ The Savior doesn't have muscles for his strength, it only has its own weight to literally throw around. Now Raziel, he isn't a moving piece of rock. On the other hand if you want I can use the standard method and have the Saviors strength be equal to its body weight. FYI Dante's strength would skyrocket. Like I said, ask the others if you want to change it.

Typo's totally throwing me off what you're trying to say. I've said several time now that it should but doesn't, I wanted it but didn't get it, and how you should ask the others if you want to change it.

Does he move it 4m in 1 second? No he does not. How far does he lift it in a second? 1.4m. Thus the speed at which he lifts it it 1.4m/s.

Geez even my teachers didn't get this touchy-feely about random unrelated words, though you should know that if I wanted to assert dominance, arrogance or be demeaning in speech... you'd know about it. ^^

Collapse means facepalming the ground. The fact that he was able to support the force coming at him means he has the strength to do so. Look above for teh answer of weight.

Thats a change in PSI, not force. The medium in which he releases his force may change but the force itself has its limit, in this case 272KJ. Tripping up... wha? O-o

That might be because I wasn't looking to counter you in the slightest lol If you want specific examples then ask Scene, though I'm fairly sure he has already done so in this thread

'Can' no cans. So you say that the jerk portion is 3m.. and didnt say the time because? You only did 1 out of 3 things. From the push to land is about 2s, 3 meters over 2 seconds. Thats 1.5m/s. He pushed a certain percent of the obelisk at 1.5m/s and if even a little percent of its weight is over the axis (its near half) then the clean will give a higher result then the jerk... but seriously man, how on earth did you get 4m/s as the speed?

Oh, youre actually replying to that part. Was not expecting that. Also was not expecting the lil rage rant <-< >-> alrightythen.. And if you read my first reply to you you'd know that ''If Bowser can get his hands on Kain he wins, if not than probably Kain if his powers work against him.'' is my stand on this without looking much into it. Looking above we see that your Dante/Savior example didnt work, so that bias claim fails too. Whats that fallacy got to do with this? Isnt it the same as your traditional ''Youre not convincing me'' part? Shouldnt the guy that said that be able to convince others of his point? And people dont ignore proper math. I'm not a favorite around here, and Dante is hated more then most characters debated on games vs yet when I give a legit calc, those people except it. Nup, dun need ta. #1 Get the joules from (weight*speed2)/2 #2 turn joules to lbs force/area for PSI. The only difference is your #1.5 stage that, like Ive said numerous time, to take it up with the others instead of complaining to me. Admittedly this was a strange little... 'episode', especially from you bro `-` .....want a toffee?

So your basing your entire belief that I should follow these rules because your claim was shot down and then you just gave up? I dont know about mach 15 but speed increases force, its basic physics and unless its a new forum rule (checked, nope ) then KMC is full of shit if it thinks it can twist physics. If they want to twist physics then they have no reason to even argue any of the physics, they cannot pick and choose what physics are relevent.

If hes 2m tall like you claim, hes not much shorter than he is wide, so I am baseing it on the scene where he grabs the sphere. Where are you getting the 11 meters from because I doubt its in-game so you must be doing something similiar. How can a 2m tall bowser be 3m wide...hes wider than he is tall according to you and how tall do you think Mario is? 6 feet or something? Look here;

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/6330/bowsersize.png

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Based on this, his crouching size is about as big as mario give or take a cm. hes not much wider than tall, even when crouching and only about 3.3 bowsers, e.g. 5 meters wide is the spheres diameter. I admit its rough but its much better than "on my screen"

tought it to me? I think anyone who has any clue about gravity or physics in general can tell you that a similiar faster object hurts more than a slow one,a child can tell you that yet apprently you and the KMC crew dont think this is the case. Your argument is that Raziels force come from his muscles now? so what? what a shoddy counter, theres still force, Saviour being a statue does not let you dodge your own apprently undeniable rules.

I dont have to ask anyone or play by anyones rules unless its in the forum rules. least of all something that goes against physics itself when were discussing physics.

He lifts it AND pushes it a meter in 1 second, it does not stop at pulling it up to his chest.

He almost did facepalm the ground, he collapsed but not completly e.g. fall over. Due to his large mass and width (hes no slim jim) this makes sense since he has the strength to hold it in the first place, if he stopped it dead and did not struggle with his chin an inch off the floor you would have a point.

Thats what we are talking about, forces. PSI is the force he is using, your poking around at the strength feat. Why do you think its called striking force?

"pretty sure", maybe but this thread is only a few pages long i am sure he can point me to it.

Raziel is not responsible for it landing so how long it took to land is irrelevent, we know it was pushed to reach the apex and fall, It was roughply 2 meters when it was above his head, then pushed to move another meter. This all happens in 1 second, the actually obelisk hits the ground later but Raziel is not responsible hes already entered his energy input in 1 second.

Looking up we see you reaching about how apprently Saviour being a statue without muscle changes everything without any real evidence to suggest why. I never said anyone can convince me more than I can convince them, tbh I dont think anyone is trying to be convinced including you, even if you could not think of a counter you would rather ignore something than admit you were wrong. Clearly they do, but even so I dont ignore your shoddy math I assess it. Since when? I dont remember anyone with major opposition against you but I am not accepting your math, I cna see the holes in it so your thesis crumbles. you dont need to? Thats because you cannot.

Come back with some real calculations or at least if you see error in mine, the exact area where. If you cannot then theres no point spamming your calculations as if your some respected superior whos math is automatically above mine, afterall yours does not even follow physics because you were shot down in another thread lol.

Originally posted by Burning thought
So your basing your entire belief that I should follow these rules because your claim was shot down and then you just gave up? I dont know about mach 15 but speed increases force, its basic physics and unless its a new forum rule (checked, nope ) then KMC is full of shit if it thinks it can twist physics. If they want to twist physics then they have no reason to even argue any of the physics, they cannot pick and choose what physics are relevent.
Two forum vs sites that I know of so far don't do it, I'm not too bothered to argue such a large agreement. Of course its not in the rules, physics and maths wont be mentioned there. This is a strange ironic thing how the guy that opposed game physics for years is trying to amend them. But yeah, I didnt really care to argue it at the time but you want to do so, go for it.

Originally posted by Burning thought
If hes 2m tall like you claim, hes not much shorter than he is wide, so I am baseing it on the scene where he grabs the sphere. Where are you getting the 11 meters from because I doubt its in-game so you must be doing something similiar. How can a 2m tall bowser be 3m wide...hes wider than he is tall according to you and how tall do you think Mario is? 6 feet or something? Look here;

~~!!HERE!!!~~

Based on this, his crouching size is about as big as mario give or take a cm. hes not much wider than tall, even when crouching and only about 3.3 bowsers, e.g. 5 meters wide is the spheres diameter. I admit its rough but its much better than "on my screen"
And he is, but remember that the image you're using there is him with his arms out. Dammit.. was really trying to avoid getting pics. Curse you BT >;...

Bowser's height = 40 pix = 2m. Ball diameter = 255 pix = 11.25m. Volume = 745,514,662.91242cm3. Density = Iron = 7.85g/cm3. Weight = 6,451 tons.

Originally posted by Burning thought
tought it to me? I think anyone who has any clue about gravity or physics in general can tell you that a similiar faster object hurts more than a slow one,a child can tell you that yet apprently you and the KMC crew dont think this is the case. Your argument is that Raziels force come from his muscles now? so what? what a shoddy counter, theres still force, Saviour being a statue does not let you dodge your own apprently undeniable rules.
Seeing as you were anti-math until it aided Kain, yeah I'd say so. Now, did I say that Raziel uses his muscles for his feat or did I say that the Savior doesnt have muscles or anything to generate strength in the conventional way? Organisms work differently then non-organic ones... yeah..

Originally posted by Burning thought
I dont have to ask anyone or play by anyones rules unless its in the forum rules. least of all something that goes against physics itself when were discussing physics.
Well technically the rules of vs physics is based on fictional physics, not irl. If it was perfect irl standards I'd be able to find a flaw in every single feat by how it would not work irl. So if you want to play vs physics it has to match up by what people agree to. So yeah, go ask about it.

Originally posted by Burning thought
He lifts it AND pushes it a meter in 1 second, it does not stop at pulling it up to his chest.
I timed it with a stopwatch. Floor to chest of 1.4m = 1 second. Chest to floor of 3m~ = 2 seconds. Its two separate moves; the clean and the jerk.

Originally posted by Burning thought
He almost did facepalm the ground, he collapsed but not completly e.g. fall over. Due to his large mass and width (hes no slim jim) this makes sense since he has the strength to hold it in the first place, if he stopped it dead and did not struggle with his chin an inch off the floor you would have a point.
He didnt collapse, he didnt buckle, he didnt even fall to a knee. If he lacked the strength his body would not be standing.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Thats what we are talking about, forces. PSI is the force he is using, your poking around at the strength feat. Why do you think its called striking force?
Joules is the force, the max is the max. PSI is how they release it over the area. The max joules cant change, the PSI can.

Originally posted by Burning thought
"pretty sure", maybe but this thread is only a few pages long i am sure he can point me to it.
Mhm, saw both of you saying something about it.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Raziel is not responsible for it landing so how long it took to land is irrelevent, we know it was pushed to reach the apex and fall, It was roughply 2 meters when it was above his head, then pushed to move another meter. This all happens in 1 second, the actually obelisk hits the ground later but Raziel is not responsible hes already entered his energy input in 1 second.
You still dont know how much of the weight was on him on the push and how much was on the axis. Its pretty vital really. And no, I timed it to be a second to the chest and the rest doesnt matter as the jerk is inferior to the clean.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Looking up we see you reaching about how apprently Saviour being a statue without muscle changes everything without any real evidence to suggest why. I never said anyone can convince me more than I can convince them, tbh I dont think anyone is trying to be convinced including you, even if you could not think of a counter you would rather ignore something than admit you were wrong. Clearly they do, but even so I dont ignore your shoddy math I assess it. Since when? I dont remember anyone with major opposition against you but I am not accepting your math, I cna see the holes in it so your thesis crumbles. you dont need to? Thats because you cannot.
Oh its not a reach, the thing has nothing to generate strength from like an organism would. So using the weight#speed of it is the only method unless you want to treat it like an organism which would greatly increase the strength feat :V Not really. Well its something you have to do in the calcing world. Lol dude I always admit when Im wrong or make a mistake. Done so twice on this page I believe. Yup, been told before :3 and Dante is hated. Yet good math cant be denied, even by haters. You only see holes where you want to see them or if it looks wrong to something you got, thats nothing to actual analysing and correcting. Nah, jus' dun wanna. Ive already told you the issues with your math so...

Originally posted by Burning thought
Come back with some real calculations or at least if you see error in mine, the exact area where. If you cannot then theres no point spamming your calculations as if your some respected superior whos math is automatically above mine, afterall yours does not even follow physics because you were shot down in another thread lol.
You already know the faults, so asking for the same faults is some strange sadomasochism right there o: dont bring your power struggle 'im superior!! muahahah' thing over to me `,`Like I said like... several times now; Stop moaning to me and ask the rest. Seriously. Go.

To get it out of the way: Bowser does use his claws. Those three links alone show that Bowser can poison his claws, stab with them, or amp them with magic. There ya go, BloodRain.

Originally posted by Burning thought
I dont know actually, Vorador died before the SR era, infact canonically he died in BO1 but appears in BO2 from an unkown reason, so at some point he was ressurected, I am not sure what happened to him since he is not mentioned in the following games, it would seem he was destroyed as most fans speculate by Kain. Either way, your argument holds no ground still, age is not the only defining power level of a vampire, Kain is still vastly more powerful. Your bringing up vampires other than those featured in the scene....your grasping at straws. Melchiah was considered the weakest of his brothers, to the point where his flesh was constantly rotting off by itself.

Vorador was ancient when Kain was a fledgling, that's about all that needs to be said. Oh, and Melchiah? Raziel couldn't hurt him with claws, either, so why does that matter? He's certainly more powerful than fledgling Dumahim.



Yes, unless you have something substantial for your ranged weapon theory? So far, something that resembles a known melee would be more likely to be used in melee than shot out of a siege crossbow, especially since the shape is all wrong for a bolt. Besides, you have no not, in fact, proven that vampires are durable. That's because they regenerate. Play through the game again, you'll notice that vampires bleed when Raziel hits them, and enough blows will stun them while they try to regenerate their injuries.

No durability, just regeneration Which is negated by being impaled, which Bowser can, in fact, do.



Because they regenerate, obviously. His claws hurt them, and enough damage makes them helpless so Raziel can throw them at something dangerous. Again, no actual durability, they just don't die from slashes. L2LoK, dude.



Correction: I have two cutscenes of fire near instantly killing two powerful vampires. Further, please prove that durability relates in any way to fire resistance. Bowser is effectively immune to lava, you imply that this would make him much more durable than Kain, more than he already is. BTW, are you seriously arguing that Bowser can't switch attacks because his game is turn based? That's pretty funny, actually. Though I do hope you realize Bowser has inhale solid creatures around Kain's size, such a Princess Peach, amazon that she may be.



And the center is also spewing gas, which predictably proceeds to explode. Besides, Dumah catches fire before it explodes, so it doesn't even matter anyway.



It's not like you really need to gauge them to tell they're above what Kain can do. Even the Bob-Omb explosion throwing him across the continent is clearly above Kain, and it's probably one of the weaker ones.



Yeah, you know that was concerning the dimensional reaver, its a gameplay mechanic, most bosses are immune to it and until you can prove it canonically happens you're wasting our time.



It's a rather simply matter of consistency. The Defiance heart rip is inconsistent with the Soul Reaver 2 claw attack, so usually the later game takes precedence. This is typically called a retcon. Since we know that Raziel can damage Kain, Soul Reaver 2's cutscene doesn't make much sense.



Well, you're to pretend that the developers are on your side, when in reality they wouldn't give a crap about a vs. debate. It's like an appeal to authority, except you're making up things you hope they would say. You don't think Kain's "death scar" is the one he got when he died? When he was killed by assassins? Instead, you think it is the hole that Kain did not actually die from? I've got to admit I don't understand your logic here.

There's what actually happens, and then there's what is more advantageous to Kain. I prefer the former.

Last time I checked the catch card was scripted event that was used by the item, so it looks like it can't be mechanics either. For the explosion feat, just consider if Kain could replicate it. Since the answer is no, it's better than what Kain can dish out. As for the black hole, just watch the scene. After the supernova absorbs the nearby planetoids and implodes, making the black holes that destroys all the nearby ships, the lumas jump into it. Eventually you see pretty much everything else not Mario just get sucked into the hourglass shaped thing, which proceeds to Big Bang a new universe. Then Bowser stands up with a headache. I don't see how you can possibly see that as unimpressive.



Do you have a point or will you just continue your flaming? All I asked was for you to provide evidence.



I know what a mechanic is, obviously, since you've demonstrated multiple times:

Game mechanic = Whatever I don't want the opponent to use.

Scripted event = A game mechanic that I want to use.

See, the catch card is obviously a scripted event, while the dimension reaver is a game mechanic. Simple.



Yes, Kain can only shock human minds, because human minds are the only thing Kain states are vulnerable to the shock. Simple. It works on nothing nonhuman.



Yes, it's difficult (actually logically impossible) to prove a negative. All I can do is show you the entire game and note the lack of blood. On the other hand, I could ask you to prove he does have blood, which you cannot do.



Way to miss the point. Even the slowest bullet is still stupidly fast, just like even the weakest black hole is stupidly strong. You're the one trying to downplay everything, when even a cursory glance can tell the forces involved are stronger than Kain. Planetoids are being pulled and crushed, followed by it imploding into a black hole that tears ships and space stations apart. Calculations on this would be pointless and wasting time.



Both proven.



So you're ignoring canon statements that they fire blasts of sound. Got it, no need to say any more.



None of which change the fact that peasants are inside and untransformed, thereby making it a worthless feat. Your C point doesn't actually make sense.



And that it doesn't seem to affet anyone else, so it doesn't matter much.



The size of the transformed area doesn't affect the power of the transformation. The fact that humans are not even affected is a sure indicator that the effect is weaker than you believe. Bowser, on the other hand, turned 7 very powerful spirits known for granting wishes into cards. The Star Spirits are, of course, capable of healing, putting creatures to sleep, calling down meteor showers, disabling abilities, stopping time, and transforming creatures into helpless stars. Trying to downplay them as "little stars" is not going to help you.

You are also ignoring that Bowser canonically transform the people of the Mushrrom Kingdom into bricks and horsehair plants in one game.



It's rather more like a pistol versus a bazooka and the tank is highly flammable, but I think BloodRain did a nice job.

Originally posted by BloodRain


Ohh right, this and another forums band of posters decided something apprently so it becomes the forums undeniable rules. Stop trying to shove unknown rules made by users witohut authority who dont have a say down my throat, I dont have to accept their illogical fallacies.

So? His arms being out were calculated, hes not a meter wide without them being out. Also you did not answer me, why is 40 pixels=2meters? Also you have added to the sphere in your image, a bit of guesswork. If you pause the ball as it flies from the cannon you can see the little cross at the very top of the screen in the image is where the diameter is.

Thats nothing to do with tought, I simply conceded to the fact it was being used so i thought I would join in. Energy still comes from them, the fact that their source is different cannot be argued with one and not the other, again your argument does not hold up, saviour beign a statue makes no difference, both of their potential energy is still A, regardless of source.

No, everyone in here is argueing each feat as accuratly as they can to PSI, mass, weight etc, all of that goes out the window if they dont use velocity properly, or use momentum. As I said, I dont have to play by their rules. I like how you keep saying, annoyingly so over and over "go and ask about it", you go and ask about it because their not moderators, I can ignore their illogical fallacies.

So did I (phone timer, same thing), you know what? floor to chest and then push=1 second, the actual part up to his chest takes less than a second to do. Them being seperate still does not stop the fact Raziel made it happen, it was still at/above his head before he pushes it anyway.

Well were going to have to agree to disagree, you keep claiming the opposite to what I do is getting nowhere. Bowser never stood straight and just took the whole force without moving, he was straining on the ground, he could if he tried stroke the dirt with his chin.

Joules= massxvelocity squared, velocity is not always the same therefore energy can change. As I said, neither you or anyone else in a forum can change physics, if they dont want to use it anymore because they dont like it then tough, they brought it up.

Its actually under a second, 0;51 I got for Raziels chest. The weight on him is irrelevent because hes pushing it a meter or so, we know the weight of the frustum, it does not take its own weight until he pushes it over the threshhold.

"is the only method", but you cant use speed so its a damn shame you only have the base weight of saviour for Dante, because SP told you, you cant use momentum . Well I could say the same, I will just copy and paste your line its good enough; "You only see holes where you want to see them or if it looks wrong to something you got, thats nothing to actual analysing and correcting" Well no, you have not really, not even close. You just spam something not really relevent.

You are proving your arrogence in the belief your math is superior so trying to claim your not is a denial. But as I said, yours is in fault, and according to you most of KMC is, because their cutting out a piece of physics apprently, a pretty important piece. And no, go and re-think why I should pander to the flawed and fallacious ideals of a forum base I dont respect, then argue the same for yourself rather than just accepting it.


Originally posted by The Scenario


Yes I tought as much, he does not use it against anything durable. Paper mario, some sort of puppet, he does not use it in bowsers inside story, we dont even know if he has much strength in those other games by comparison.

Is it? you dont really know what your talking about do you....Raziel never canonically attempts to damage Melchiah with his claws...again, boss battle/gamepaly mechanics tripping you up, I admit it works both ways and in both games.

I dont need a better theory to defeat your already lackluster theory, your the one actually trying to prove something with a theory, not me. I am making suggestions, the objects are fairly aero dynamic at the back. But Raziels 9 million tons of force PSI cannot slice through them, hes looking for ways to kill them otherwise.

Regen is consistent, that does not negate the fact Raziel cannot cut them in half or make a wound they cannot survive from, e.g. ripped in half, which is more than humans can do. Also Bowsers nails a few cm in size, hows he going to impale anyone?

Because irl stronger materials take longer to melt, their particles being more dense/closer aligned, Kain has skin thousands of times stronger than diamond, Steel, titanium and they take ridiculous temps to melt. No I dont....and no, I am saying Kain is not turn based therefore hes not waiting for bowser to change moves. But not as strong as Kain, e.g. able to resist.

It matters because it burns with incredible heat, from the furnace. Also I dont recall the gas coming from the center, show me again plz. If it was a gas made fire throughout the place it would happen instantly, not combust in a ball like high pressure heat.

So what your saying is, their above Kain, were not going to gauge them but its clear! , maybe I wont gauge any of the feats, Kains simply clearly above them. Thats pretty much what your doing right now, showing more stubborn and fan love than I have ever done.

Childish, no counter. Your credability dropped a load.

We know that in the Defiance context, e.g. Kain weakene and slashed by the wraith blade which makes him bleed on-screen can make Kain vulnerable to things full power Kain in the FMV before is completly invulnerable to. As I said, you dont know what a retcon is, so you can add that to the fact you dont know what a lot of game mechanics are as well.

http://www.zoecchi.com/Images/Games/LOK/BloodOmen2_Kainpose.jpg

Not sure Kain has a death scar from his assasination if you look above, you can see his whole chest without a scar. The image you showed before showed a massive dark line across Elder Kains chest suggesting it may have been mortanius putting the heart of darkness in Kain that gave the scar but the above image shows no scar at all Further, elder Kain has a lot of dark lines, cracks and other things on his body, it could be just part of the design.

Also, this proves that its not the lack of a heart that halts Kains own vampire regeneration, since he did not heal his chest by himself or his scar. I wonder,if its the fact Raziel broke so deep into Kains body that he could not heal the area as perfectly as normal vampires heal flesh deep attacks.



Originally posted by The Scenario



But its not an item, its a spell that the mechanics have no influence over since technically the player is not even playing while it happens, you cannot stop or change the animation or those it affects. Because its on a scale of such low gravity, that their weights are less than Kain has used through force (each planetoid is probably not much bigger than a large house). Also, both bowser, mario and pretty much all of them get up because the fairy thing aids them, its arguable if the black hole even touched them.

You did it again evidence for what precifically!!? Saints alive

What the dimension reaver does is scripted, a mechanic is something that alters how players interact with the universe, for example health bars, bosses that take a specific tactic to beat. Another example is Kratos from God of War, he has proven to be more than strong enoguh to ear almost any bosses in piecies but he still has to play by the mechanics which state each boss has a tactic.

He states human minds are fragile, thats nothing to imply no other mind is fragile. Your making the hasty generalisation fallacy.

I did provide evidnece he has blood, the fact his body environment is red, suggesting blood is flowing through it. Tbh, I dont have to prove Bowser has blood more so than anyone else has to prove a character does, if its a bio organism, especially a dinosoid sort of creature it has blood of some form.

The whole thing is wasting time, your reaching, your claims of it being superior to Kain without any real evidence. You dont have a case other than "its clearly stronger", the planetoids are small and so is mario, it cannot suck in mario at all it seems until the end. You have no gauge, your just saying "its stwongerz so there!"

One, gameplay mechanic, two the sonic waves in marios world move at like, a cm a second.....thats slow as hell but again, gameplay mechanic.

You did not counter me here, and I refered to it as "sonic blasts" so reading comprehension ftw.


Yeh again, you ignored my points and just claimed the same thing you did before, I think I should start being as lazy as you and not actually debate, just keep saying "wrong, not a feat!" alongside my "Kains clearly more powerfulz, i dont have ot prove anything".

Yes because Kains comment on humans and beasts, the weather and the terrain itself being affected was just some in-game comedy to be ignored.

It shows its more powerful, a nuclear bomb is more powerful than a smaller one more so because its area can wipe out far far more. It affects weather, beast and man. Oh please, their counter to bowser was simply squeeking in terror, tehy did not even try to do anything.

I guess we dont know how long this took, or how he did it? can we see him doing it or is it ambigious? e.g., dark eden is a expanding zone of reality warping magic, Bowsers brick transformation consists of?

Well of course you would think so, hes your aid. I wonder if I just got a few guys I know to come on here and simply agree with me and re-hash my old points I would be able to ignore arguments like you do.

Much obliged, Scene. See, he uses claws. Its the same in SSB.

And when did I become Scene's aid? O.o

Originally posted by Burning thought
So? His arms being out were calculated, hes not a meter wide without them being out. Also you did not answer me, why is 40 pixels=2meters? Also you have added to the sphere in your image, a bit of guesswork. If you pause the ball as it flies from the cannon you can see the little cross at the very top of the screen in the image is where the diameter is.
Then how you got to 1.5m is a wonder. Think about it using your own image; Mario is 152cm tall and you can fit two Mario's into the width you gave Bowser. You have 7 Mario's worth in the diameter you gave, 7*1.52m=10.64m. I didn't answer you 'cos you never asked about the 40pix... in fact, I just posted about it. 40pix is Bowser's height of 2m. Really? Guess work? Its a circle, the original image is a circle and the curves match up perfectly. Thats the size of the ball. Let me get this straight, you think the cross is the where the center is? OK, lets take a look-see....
http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab287/Noctis-Animus/Bowserandthefootball.png ...Yeah, still think my one is much more accurate; http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab287/Noctis-Animus/BowerandtheIronBall.png

Furthermore in the image you gave the line you used is 5.25x Bowser's standing height of 2m. Even with the football *coughrugbycough* shape the diameter would still be 10.5m.
Originally posted by Burning thought
So did I (phone timer, same thing), you know what? floor to chest and then push=1 second, the actual part up to his chest takes less than a second to do. Them being seperate still does not stop the fact Raziel made it happen, it was still at/above his head before he pushes it anyway.

Its actually under a second, 0;51 I got for Raziels chest. The weight on him is irrelevent because hes pushing it a meter or so, we know the weight of the frustum, it does not take its own weight until he pushes it over the threshhold.
Then I dont know what youre counting. Actually I'm not even going to look at the jerk part as its end result is below the clean portion. And yes the weight upon the axis is crucial for the jerk as less force is needed to tip a weight thats over its own tipping point. On the clip you posted he begins the lift at near enough right on 3:31 and its by his chest by 3:32. 1.4m/s.
To reiterate the axis point:

http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab287/Noctis-Animus/Razielandtheobeliskpart54orsomethinglikethat-2.png

Photoshop is buggy on my laptop so you'll have to... tilt your head make the baseline parallel to the ground <.< >.> The orange section is the weight over the axis thats ready to fall down due to gravity and a push. By my calculations..... / 2 for half a cuboid volume]*2.6 density=..... the blue section weights 115 tons of the overall 300 tons.

In other words about 62% of the weight was over the axis' tipping point, so Raziel would only have to have moved 38% of the weight/115 tons. And even at this point even the slightest tip would make gravity do the majority of the work with Raziel giving minimal. Like I said, the clean > the jerk.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Well were going to have to agree to disagree, you keep claiming the opposite to what I do is getting nowhere. Bowser never stood straight and just took the whole force without moving, he was straining on the ground, he could if he tried stroke the dirt with his chin.
Missing the main thing here; Did the force overwhelm him or did he still manage to stand there holding it? If the former, like it is, then it requires the strength to do so. And now that we have the proper weight and diameter we can to the proper calc;

6,451 tons = 5,852,248.76 kg

11.25^2 = 126.5625

(5852248.76*126.5625)/2 = 370,337,617 J ie 370MJ

Bowser gets a nice 136% increase in force since the last calc.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Ohh right, this and another forums band of posters decided something apprently so it becomes the forums undeniable rules. Stop trying to shove unknown rules made by users witohut authority who dont have a say down my throat, I dont have to accept their illogical fallacies.
Thats nothing to do with tought, I simply conceded to the fact it was being used so i thought I would join in. Energy still comes from them, the fact that their source is different cannot be argued with one and not the other, again your argument does not hold up, saviour beign a statue makes no difference, both of their potential energy is still A, regardless of source.
No, everyone in here is argueing each feat as accuratly as they can to PSI, mass, weight etc, all of that goes out the window if they dont use velocity properly, or use momentum. As I said, I dont have to play by their rules. :laughingfaceislaughing: I like how you keep saying, annoyingly so over and over "go and ask about it", you go and ask about it because their not moderators, I can ignore their illogical fallacies.
Joules= massxvelocity squared, velocity is not always the same therefore energy can change. As I said, neither you or anyone else in a forum can change physics, if they dont want to use it anymore because they dont like it then tough, they brought it up.
"is the only method", but you cant use speed so its a damn shame you only have the base weight of saviour for Dante, because SP told you, you cant use momentum :sadfaceissad: . Well I could say the same, I will just copy and paste your line its good enough; "You only see holes where you want to see them or if it looks wrong to something you got, thats nothing to actual analysing and correcting" Well no, you have not really, not even close. You just spam something not really relevent.
You are proving your arrogence in the belief your math is superior so trying to claim your not is a denial. But as I said, yours is in fault, and according to you most of KMC is, because their cutting out a piece of physics apprently, a pretty important piece. And no, go and re-think why I should pander to the flawed and fallacious ideals of a forum base I dont respect, then argue the same for yourself rather than just accepting it.

If ya don't mind, roughly all the same stuff anyhow:

1. Speed for a non-organism that can't generate its own force. We both know the Savior point you wanted backfired as it relies on an organism vs statue, so if you want to forget you said it that'll be fine. (Also like how of all the names you chose SP :3)

2. If I was arrogant or superior in my maths I wouldn't have corrected myself countless times. But you're more than welcome to hate on me as I'm not the one in the vs thread~ And nup, you math has already been analysed, hence the discussion of extra velocity. But thanks for the quote compliment. ^^

3. You're arguing for Real Life Physics, whats being used in these fictitious debates is Fictitious Physics. See, RL-Physics cant be used here as there would be countless flaws and illogical things happening that would be impossible by RL standards. F-Physics on the other hand has to let some illogical things slide in order to make sense of a feat scientifically. For instance: RL-Physics wouldnt use a feat of Sonic running up a wall as its impossible, Kratos stopping a charging beast without being knocked back, any FTL feats, Link lifting a pillar without it crumbling in his hands etc anything not scientifically possible will be thrown out.

So you can either except RL-Physics completely and disallow any and every feat thats impossible IRL which would take away 90% of feats, or you can go by F-Physics. More importantly... stop shooting the messenger >-> Like Ive repeated before, ask the others about it. Because seriously, what're you going to gain from telling me that you don't want to go by it? We'd only argue, that way you can at least get answers or a chance to change it.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Much obliged, Scene. See, he uses claws. Its the same in SSB.

And when did I become Scene's aid? O.o


Then how you got to 1.5m is a wonder. Think about it using your own image; Mario is 152cm tall and you can fit two Mario's into the width you gave Bowser. You have 7 Mario's worth in the diameter you gave, 7*1.52m=10.64m. I didn't answer you 'cos you never asked about the 40pix... in fact, I just posted about it. 40pix is Bowser's height of 2m. Really? Guess work? Its a circle, the original image is a circle and the curves match up perfectly. Thats the size of the ball. Let me get this straight, you think the cross is the where the center is? OK, lets take a look-see....
http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab287/Noctis-Animus/Bowserandthefootball.png ...Yeah, still think my one is much more accurate; http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab287/Noctis-Animus/BowerandtheIronBall.png

Furthermore in the image you gave the line you used is 5.25x Bowser's standing height of 2m. Even with the football *coughrugbycough* shape the diameter would still be 10.5m.

Then I dont know what youre counting. Actually I'm not even going to look at the jerk part as its end result is below the clean portion. And yes the weight upon the axis is crucial for the jerk as less force is needed to tip a weight thats over its own tipping point. On the clip you posted he begins the lift at near enough right on 3:31 and its by his chest by 3:32. 1.4m/s.
To reiterate the axis point:

http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab287/Noctis-Animus/Razielandtheobeliskpart54orsomethinglikethat-2.png

Photoshop is buggy on my laptop so you'll have to... tilt your head make the baseline parallel to the ground <.< >.> The orange section is the weight over the axis thats ready to fall down due to gravity and a push. By my calculations..... / 2 for half a cuboid volume]*2.6 density=..... the blue section weights 115 tons of the overall 300 tons.

In other words about 62% of the weight was over the axis' tipping point, so Raziel would only have to have moved 38% of the weight/115 tons. And even at this point even the slightest tip would make gravity do the majority of the work with Raziel giving minimal. Like I said, the clean > the jerk.


Missing the main thing here; Did the force overwhelm him or did he still manage to stand there holding it? If the former, like it is, then it requires the strength to do so. And now that we have the proper weight and diameter we can to the proper calc;

6,451 tons = 5,852,248.76 kg

11.25^2 = 126.5625

(5852248.76*126.5625)/2 = 370,337,617 J ie 370MJ

Bowser gets a nice 136% increase in force since the last calc.



If ya don't mind, roughly all the same stuff anyhow:

1. Speed for a non-organism that can't generate its own force. We both know the Savior point you wanted backfired as it relies on an organism vs statue, so if you want to forget you said it that'll be fine. (Also like how of all the names you chose SP :3)

2. If I was arrogant or superior in my maths I wouldn't have corrected myself countless times. But you're more than welcome to hate on me as I'm not the one in the vs thread~ And nup, you math has already been analysed, hence the discussion of extra velocity. But thanks for the quote compliment. ^^

3. You're arguing for Real Life Physics, whats being used in these fictitious debates is Fictitious Physics. See, RL-Physics cant be used here as there would be countless flaws and illogical things happening that would be impossible by RL standards. F-Physics on the other hand has to let some illogical things slide in order to make sense of a feat scientifically. For instance: RL-Physics wouldnt use a feat of Sonic running up a wall as its impossible, Kratos stopping a charging beast without being knocked back, any FTL feats, Link lifting a pillar without it crumbling in his hands etc anything not scientifically possible will be thrown out.

So you can either except RL-Physics completely and disallow any and every feat thats impossible IRL which would take away 90% of feats, or you can go by F-Physics. More importantly... stop shooting the messenger >-> Like Ive repeated before, ask the others about it. Because seriously, what're you going to gain from telling me that you don't want to go by it? We'd only argue, that way you can at least get answers or a chance to change it.

As unusual as your image makes it look the cross is still roughply where the center is;

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/2280/ballbowser.png

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Also based on this, bowser is not much bigger than Mario, probably 6 feet max. NOt sure where you got 2 meters from because as shown above Mario is based on those scenes not much smaller. Wheres your comparison of mario to Bowser so I can compare? I want to know what makes you think inside story bowser is so much larger. Concerning the crouching Bowser with the ball on him, you can probably just about fit one mario in that.

So whats your point here? it still makes him stronger to use that energy than if you just calculate the chest area. Also where are you getting 1.4 for the chest for? Also your not making much sense because if the majority of the weight was on the other side, it would fall by itself, not wait for Raziel to push it so clearly he is still working with majority weight.

He did not manage to stand there holding it, it did overwhelm but not completly crush him. Well proper in your opinion, as shown above the small cross in near the diameter, you have added a lot more. You have still to prove the 11 meters/s thing as well, its more a durability/absorbtion feat alike to Kratos' super anchoring than strength.

Its still not enough to do much more than scrape Kains top layer of skin, at best.

1. Did not counter anything here, just stated the same thing. Its force=weightxvelockty squared, just like how an organism in this case is strength+weightxvelocity squared, only according to you velocity is irrelevent.

2. Well its not extra velocity, its real velocity that changed when Raziel uses force. You cannot choose what velocity (that of the frustum after Raziel moved it, or that of the Sphere for bowser, that of Saviours arm) we actualy calculate and ignore the rest.

3. Its all ficticious, nothing in the rules states velocity is not part of it. It does not make sense scientfically if your letting things slide, technically a lot of things form mass, to weight to density does not work here, we dont ignore them however otherwise theres no point in using the feat at all or math to calc it, its the same with velocity, you dont get force without velocity, only mass.

How much are they paying you to be a messenger? and your not just a messenger, your using their claims as evidence for me to apprently not use real science in my workings. Energy calculations wont work without velocity, so you can either throw the whole strength feat out OR use velocity. Further, most LoK feats are fairly feasable, they dont consider thousands of tons only a few hundred, the frustum being the heaviest thing in a feat in Lok so far.

Originally posted by Burning thought
As unusual as your image makes it look the cross is still roughply where the center is;

~~PICCUS~~~

Also based on this, bowser is not much bigger than Mario, probably 6 feet max. NOt sure where you got 2 meters from because as shown above Mario is based on those scenes not much smaller. Wheres your comparison of mario to Bowser so I can compare? I want to know what makes you think inside story bowser is so much larger. Concerning the crouching Bowser with the ball on him, you can probably just about fit one mario in that.
Assuming the ball didn't, y'know, turn. Or maybe how the first cross is much larger than in the next scene. Are you honestly going to look at the image I posted and say that the circle is wrong? If the center was where you thought i was it would not be a ball. If it was a bit above it then it would not be a ball. Unless its on the line I showed then its wont be a ball. Here:
http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab287/Noctis-Animus/BowserheighttoMario.pnghttp://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab287/Noctis-Animus/BowserheighttoMario2.png
Haha, Im thinking 2m in that scene is good enough, right? Oh and its 5ft, not 4.9.

Originally posted by Burning thought
So whats your point here? it still makes him stronger to use that energy than if you just calculate the chest area. Also where are you getting 1.4 for the chest for? Also your not making much sense because if the majority of the weight was on the other side, it would fall by itself, not wait for Raziel to push it so clearly he is still working with majority weight.
No... no it wouldn't. Clean: Lifting 100% of the weight up to the chest. Jerk: Pushing 38% of the weight over the tipping point. No matter how you look at it Raziel didnt have the whole weight on him nor would he have to do the majority of work.
From 80% of Raziel's full height, Ive said this already.

Originally posted by Burning thought
He did not manage to stand there holding it, it did overwhelm but not completly crush him. Well proper in your opinion, as shown above the small cross in near the diameter, you have added a lot more. You have still to prove the 11 meters/s thing as well, its more a durability/absorbtion feat alike to Kratos' super anchoring than strength.
If he's still standing, he can take it. Thats clear. And dear lord no, look at that football image for a second will ya. Thats what it will look like if its where you think it is. Now look back to my one. Is it not a perfect circle that matches the curves of the image already there?

Originally posted by Burning thought
Its still not enough to do much more than scrape Kains top layer of skin, at best.
Lol cool story bro. You know why no one has believed this part? Its because there is no way besides faults that Bowser who has Raziel's strength being literally a percentage of his will struggle to harm Kain.

Originally posted by Burning thought
1. Did not counter anything here, just stated the same thing. Its force=weightxvelockty squared, just like how an organism in this case is strength+weightxvelocity squared, only according to you velocity is irrelevent.
HoYay~ Nup, organisms can generate strength while statues cant. In this case its the same as a large rock falling on him, no difference.

Originally posted by Burning thought
2. Well its not extra velocity, its real velocity that changed when Raziel uses force. You cannot choose what velocity (that of the frustum after Raziel moved it, or that of the Sphere for bowser, that of Saviours arm) we actualy calculate and ignore the rest.
Youre just adding the same thing from down there up here. Stop increasing the point.

Originally posted by Burning thought
3. Its all ficticious, nothing in the rules states velocity is not part of it. It does not make sense scientfically if your letting things slide, technically a lot of things form mass, to weight to density does not work here, we dont ignore them however otherwise theres no point in using the feat at all or math to calc it, its the same with velocity, you dont get force without velocity, only mass.
Its the un-written rules of F-Physics. All that you said there, nothing to do with what I said.
A. Don't apply physics to vs forums.
B. Follow perfect physics and discount everything not irl.
C. Follow the physics used and asking other people about your queries.
D. Do your own thing and not expecting anyone else to take your word.

Originally posted by Burning thought
How much are they paying you to be a messenger? and your not just a messenger, your using their claims as evidence for me to apprently not use real science in my workings. Energy calculations wont work without velocity, so you can either throw the whole strength feat out OR use velocity. Further, most LoK feats are fairly feasable, they dont consider thousands of tons only a few hundred, the frustum being the heaviest thing in a feat in Lok so far.
Yup, Im just relaying the general practice around here while finding a way to make you understand aka a chatty messenger. Lets see.. the obelisk doesnt break when hitting the ground so it cant be as compact as granite so it must be more or less compact. But it bounced, so it must be less and thus lighter. And also when Raziel hit Kain he didnt go flying through the wall like a hit from 272KJ would do, so actually the energy in that scene would come from the speed at which Kain was sent back... IRL physics would not allow the things you want, logically speaking. Go and ask ever.... ah fine, I'll ask for you. >__> Double messenger...

Originally posted by BloodRain
Assuming the ball didn't, y'know, turn. Or maybe how the first cross is much larger than in the next scene. Are you honestly going to look at the image I posted and say that the circle is wrong? If the center was where you thought i was it would not be a ball. If it was a bit above it then it would not be a ball. Unless its on the line I showed then its wont be a ball. Here:
http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab287/Noctis-Animus/BowserheighttoMario.pnghttp://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab287/Noctis-Animus/BowserheighttoMario2.png
Haha, Im thinking 2m in that scene is good enough, right? Oh and its 5ft, not 4.9.


No... no it wouldn't. Clean: Lifting 100% of the weight up to the chest. Jerk: Pushing 38% of the weight over the tipping point. No matter how you look at it Raziel didnt have the whole weight on him nor would he have to do the majority of work.
From 80% of Raziel's full height, Ive said this already.


If he's still standing, he can take it. Thats clear. And dear lord no, look at that football image for a second will ya. Thats what it will look like if its where you think it is. Now look back to my one. Is it not a perfect circle that matches the curves of the image already there?


Lol cool story bro. You know why no one has believed this part? Its because there is no way besides faults that Bowser who has Raziel's strength being literally a percentage of his will struggle to harm Kain.


HoYay~ Nup, organisms can generate strength while statues cant. In this case its the same as a large rock falling on him, no difference.


Youre just adding the same thing from down there up here. Stop increasing the point.


Its the un-written rules of F-Physics. All that you said there, nothing to do with what I said.
A. Don't apply physics to vs forums.
B. Follow perfect physics and discount everything not irl.
C. Follow the physics used and asking other people about your queries.
D. Do your own thing and not expecting anyone else to take your word.


Yup, Im just relaying the general practice around here while finding a way to make you understand aka a chatty messenger. Lets see.. the obelisk doesnt break when hitting the ground so it cant be as compact as granite so it must be more or less compact. But it bounced, so it must be less and thus lighter. And also when Raziel hit Kain he didnt go flying through the wall like a hit from 272KJ would do, so actually the energy in that scene would come from the speed at which Kain was sent back... IRL physics would not allow the things you want, logically speaking. Go and ask ever.... ah fine, I'll ask for you. >__> Double messenger...

It does not matter if it turned or not, their similiar size, if it looks bigger before then perhaps the angle is dodgy, either way its the cross and its on the diameter, you cant get around those facts by claiming it has to be a ball, perhaps its not a perfect sphere afterall and it was at a funny angle before, the shape it looks can look different from certain angles but that cross cannot change.

Prove he only had 38% of the weight, theres no reason to belive more weight, 62% of the weight could not move itself, but it did not so clearly theres more on raziels side than you realise. And Raziels full height you math at about 5ft+, not the character average of 6ft most characters, from Link and Dante etc are typically mathed at?

Hes not standing, hes more or less crawling. Who says its a perfect circle? because the marks on the iron ball do not add up with your claim that its a perfect sphere of your dimensions, clearly the angle is at fault and your overhyping the feat.

Only Raziel cannot harm Kain with his strength either, so your simply assuming 46% more force will be more than enough to pierce Kains outer skin layer. Your also talking shit again, Kains outer skin layer can take 133889576 MPa PSI without any damage at all, if bowser has enough to scrape it off, its no different than a light scrape, yet you think you have evidence to suggest he can "wreck" kain. Bowsers going to be lucky if he gets to Kains muscles, let alone his bones facts "bro".

Yeh force is still calculated more or less the same, only as I said without strength, just weight. Read my post.

no, its you being sore over having your theory on Dante shot down then claiming everyone is going to just agree with whom shot you down, I dont have to and if they want to toss physics and math out the window then fine, no strength feats and durabilities are cool by Kain who never needed them before the math train came along.

the general practice, do you realise I have been here far longer than most of the primary posters here? including you, scenario, SP and to "general knowledge" Nemebro , if anyone knows general practice its me and ignoring physics is not it. Being sore because someone shot down your point is however, general practice apprently. The whole obelisk does not bounce, the thin end/pyramid comes up with the heavier bottom, this does not really change the feat. Kain did not do that for the same reason a cutting knife with a nano edge blade does not launch you through the air when you use it, its over a tiny area which was, as shown absorbed by kain in that tiny area but he did go flying back. You can ask all you want, I wont bend physics unless everyone agrees to toss math out the window as it would be a pointless practice to do the math if we take stuff out physics just dont work. Debating with people on here is pointless enough.

Originally posted by Burning thought
It does not matter if it turned or not, their similiar size, if it looks bigger before then perhaps the angle is dodgy, either way its the cross and its on the diameter, you cant get around those facts by claiming it has to be a ball, perhaps its not a perfect sphere afterall and it was at a funny angle before, the shape it looks can look different from certain angles but that cross cannot change.
Actually you can clearly see that the former is much larger, and yes if it turned it wouldnt be in the same position now would it? Its painfully cleat that the diameter is not where you think it is.. unless you think a giant iron football fell on him...

Originally posted by Burning thought
Prove he only had 38% of the weight, theres no reason to belive more weight, 62% of the weight could not move itself, but it did not so clearly theres more on raziels side than you realise. And Raziels full height you math at about 5ft+, not the character average of 6ft most characters, from Link and Dante etc are typically mathed at?
Ok then... oh wait I already did that two posts ago. 38% over him, 62% over the axis ie not over him. And yup, his 1.75m/5ft9in height.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Hes not standing, hes more or less crawling. Who says its a perfect circle? because the marks on the iron ball do not add up with your claim that its a perfect sphere of your dimensions, clearly the angle is at fault and your overhyping the feat.
And how is he more or less crawling if he wasnt brought down to his hands knees... at all. Unless squatting means lying down to you. He's standing, so he took it. Is it not a circle with curves matching the curves in the image? I wouldnt mind you stating here right now that in the image I posted that the circle in no way possible matches up to the circle curves in the pic. Not even in the slightest. And I'd rather you address the image this time. So far your only defense is the mark, a mark that you cannot prove is the same one and cannot prove that the ball stayed in the exact same position as when it was flying in the air.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Only Raziel cannot harm Kain with his strength either, so your simply assuming 46% more force will be more than enough to pierce Kains outer skin layer. Your also talking shit again, Kains outer skin layer can take 133889576 MPa PSI without any damage at all, if bowser has enough to scrape it off, its no different than a light scrape, yet you think you have evidence to suggest he can "wreck" kain. Bowsers going to be lucky if he gets to Kains muscles, let alone his bones facts "bro".
Yeah, totally avoiding the question. Like that 46% thing, no ones buying it though. Two guys with roughly the same area. The area is 1.5x in one guys favour, the joules are 1361x in the other guys favour. Yet you make it so that the difference is only 146% for Bowser. It makes sense if you were to ignore his vast strength. Lol oh sorry 'bout that, I forgot you were sensitive to the names -w- But nah, being over a thousand times stronger than his best durability feat is all thats needed.
-Raziel hit Kain with <1% of the force Bowser has, therefor Bowser cant hurt him either-
One of the one statement here is false.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Yeh force is still calculated more or less the same, only as I said without strength, just weight. Read my post.
Read my posts and I'll read yours.

Originally posted by Burning thought
no, its you being sore over having your theory on Dante shot down then claiming everyone is going to just agree with whom shot you down, I dont have to and if they want to toss physics and math out the window then fine, no strength feats and durabilities are cool by Kain who never needed them before the math train came along.
Lol not sure if you can even hear yourself. Its not being sour its being sensible. Would I like to have Dante at 10x strength backed with a 25,000,000 velocity? Sure, it'd rape everyone he's been up against here. Am I going to cry about it to get it? God no, it aint worth it or even that important tbh. Ive got nothing to lose and lots to gain if I just sided with you right now. If youre trying to convince anyone then yeah, you do. If no one accepts your maths then there's no point for your maths, right? Ahah, sure.

Originally posted by Burning thought
the general practice, do you realise I have been here far longer than most of the primary posters here? including you, scenario, SP and to "general knowledge" Nemebro , if anyone knows general practice its me and ignoring physics is not it. Being sore because someone shot down your point is however, general practice apprently. The whole obelisk does not bounce, the thin end/pyramid comes up with the heavier bottom, this does not really change the feat. Kain did not do that for the same reason a cutting knife with a nano edge blade does not launch you through the air when you use it, its over a tiny area which was, as shown absorbed by kain in that tiny area but he did go flying back. You can ask all you want, I wont bend physics unless everyone agrees to toss math out the window as it would be a pointless practice to do the math if we take stuff out physics just dont work. Debating with people on here is pointless enough.
Do you realise that you were 100% against math for your time here until 'after' all those people were doing it? And and all the math users youre currently the last one to get in on the game, so.... you were saying o seasoned one? Hehe :3 your frustration is showing~ Lol wow someone needs to rewatch the scene. If it was due to the tip then the base could need to rise as well. So no, it wasnt the tip.. it bounced. Now that aint real. Nope its the 1st and 3rd laws of motion. For ever action there is an equal and opposite reaction. So IRL Kain would exert an equal force in the opposite direction of the attack. No organism type thing can absorb so much force that they would not be sent flying from the attack. That'd be against Newton's laws. You do realise that the only reason for maths here is to get others to accept your calcs for a feat.. if you dont want anyone to take your maths, then whats the point in calcing?

Originally posted by BloodRain
Actually you can clearly see that the former is much larger, and yes if it turned it wouldnt be in the same position now would it? Its painfully cleat that the diameter is not where you think it is.. unless you think a giant iron football fell on him...


Ok then... oh wait I already did that two posts ago. 38% over him, 62% over the axis ie not over him. And yup, his 1.75m/5ft9in height.


And how is he more or less crawling if he wasnt brought down to his hands knees... at all. Unless squatting means lying down to you. He's standing, so he took it. Is it not a circle with curves matching the curves in the image? I wouldnt mind you stating here right now that in the image I posted that the circle in no way possible matches up to the circle curves in the pic. Not even in the slightest. And I'd rather you address the image this time. So far your only defense is the mark, a mark that you cannot prove is the same one and cannot prove that the ball stayed in the exact same position as when it was flying in the air.


Yeah, totally avoiding the question. Like that 46% thing, no ones buying it though. Two guys with roughly the same area. The area is 1.5x in one guys favour, the joules are 1361x in the other guys favour. Yet you make it so that the difference is only 146% for Bowser. It makes sense if you were to ignore his vast strength. Lol oh sorry 'bout that, I forgot you were sensitive to the names -w- But nah, being over a thousand times stronger than his best durability feat is all thats needed.
-Raziel hit Kain with <1% of the force Bowser has, therefor Bowser cant hurt him either-
One of the one statement here is false.


Read my posts and I'll read yours.


Lol not sure if you can even hear yourself. Its not being sour its being sensible. Would I like to have Dante at 10x strength backed with a 25,000,000 velocity? Sure, it'd rape everyone he's been up against here. Am I going to cry about it to get it? God no, it aint worth it or even that important tbh. Ive got nothing to lose and lots to gain if I just sided with you right now. If youre trying to convince anyone then yeah, you do. If no one accepts your maths then there's no point for your maths, right? Ahah, sure.


Do you realise that you were 100% against math for your time here until 'after' all those people were doing it? And and all the math users youre currently the last one to get in on the game, so.... you were saying o seasoned one? Hehe :3 your frustration is showing~ Lol wow someone needs to rewatch the scene. If it was due to the tip then the base could need to rise as well. So no, it wasnt the tip.. it bounced. Now that aint real. Nope its the 1st and 3rd laws of motion. For ever action there is an equal and opposite reaction. So IRL Kain would exert an equal force in the opposite direction of the attack. No organism type thing can absorb so much force that they would not be sent flying from the attack. That'd be against Newton's laws. You do realise that the only reason for maths here is to get others to accept your calcs for a feat.. if you dont want anyone to take your maths, then whats the point in calcing?

So your claim is that somehow the cross got smaller on the way down? stop reaching please, its a cross clearly seen before, and after and its clearly at the diameter. Well I dont know about football but if thats its shape then so be it, I cannot argue with the facts.

Explain why the 62% of weight on the other side did not fall by itself? if its heavier on the side its supposed to be falling on? whats this height based on? why not 6ft like most games vs generally are, more lowballing?

Well squating until your almost on the floor is close enough tbh. You just said hes squating now hes standing? get your own story right please. It looks exactly the same, we can see there are no other marks on the object that look the same, your theory to try and protect your own belief on the objects shape is that now its apprently got plenty of crosses on it.

I am not buying into your stuff either, again you imply an appeal to audiance fallacy therefore less credible claim . Well the calculation clearly points out only 146%, also if you watched Scenarios videos its divided over 4 claws since he sort of holds his hand like a karate chop with all fingers+thumb in the strike. I admit, the percentage may be slightly different if I calced Raziel only moving the obelisk 2/3 meters rather than 4 but not by much, and not enough to make a difference for bowsers success on Kain. Where are you pulling 1% from? seriously....what nonsense, and htis is the top skin layer, you realise this is purely on his claws so hes going to have to stand there scratching Kain like a cat, making small cuts until he hits bone and shatters his claws.

Whats this some arrogant sarcasm again? its being sour, your shot down so you think everyone else has to follow what you bowed your head to. I doubt it, Kain would still take him out but anyway. And if you dont convince your opposition (me at the moment) of your math then theres no point in it right? yet you still do it so your thesis collapses.

You know nothing about my time here, youve been here for a fraction of the time, me being again it is irrelevent, its not a general practice if its just been made up by newcomers is it silly. so is your flawed grasp on replies, you have to try and make quibs to keep up. Re-read the laws, nano thickness knives do not launch their users into the air, or explode the piecies their cutting. Whats the point? to get a factual answer, I am not going to cut physics up because a few angry fans dont like it.

Originally posted by Burning thought
So your claim is that somehow the cross got smaller on the way down? stop reaching please, its a cross clearly seen before, and after and its clearly at the diameter. Well I dont know about football but if thats its shape then so be it, I cannot argue with the facts.
Lol swing and a miss~ Can you be sure that its the same cross? Can you be sure that the ball being shot through the air could not have moved on decent? If you can then by all means, show me your evidence. Until then I'll be sticking to the fact that a sphere is a sphere and not a football ^^;

And if I could laugh irl I'd be choking on wtfness on that last part. So now youre on the boat that it must be shaped like a football? Alright chief.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Explain why the 62% of weight on the other side did not fall by itself? if its heavier on the side its supposed to be falling on? whats this height based on? why not 6ft like most games vs generally are, more lowballing?
Weight pressing down, it needed a little push like I said. Geez why couldnt you ask that when I said it weeks ago? This is how it goes: If the height is unknown then the a 6ft average is used. The exception being the character is short/tall in their verse or is from a short/tall species. Currently I can think of no one in this category.. bad memory. If the height can be found then we use it. Link=6ft=horse shoulder, Kratos=8ft=cos they said so, Dante=6'3"=cos they said so, and Raziel=5'9"=height compared to Kain who=6'3"=taller than 6ft tall people. Done pointing fingers now?

Originally posted by Burning thought
Well squating until your almost on the floor is close enough tbh. You just said hes squating now hes standing? get your own story right please. It looks exactly the same, we can see there are no other marks on the object that look the same, your theory to try and protect your own belief on the objects shape is that now its apprently got plenty of crosses on it.
Squatting is standing in a different tense o-o Hmmm. Accept BT idea that the mark is right by the diameter thus turning the shpere we know it is into a football shape... or agree with myself that a sphere is a sphere.. See, I'm having issues believing that the ball transformed before hitting him then turned back when thrown back. Just me? Aannnnnnnnnnnddddddd while I'm here; Look at the image posted above, the one I edited from your post. If you'll notice I stuck Bowser's face on in the same position as if he was looking forward. The weight above him is making him 17cm shorter then usual. In actually he's hardly squatting at all..

Originally posted by Burning thought
I am not buying into your stuff either, again you imply an appeal to audiance fallacy therefore less credible claim . Well the calculation clearly points out only 146%, also if you watched Scenarios videos its divided over 4 claws since he sort of holds his hand like a karate chop with all fingers+thumb in the strike. I admit, the percentage may be slightly different if I calced Raziel only moving the obelisk 2/3 meters rather than 4 but not by much, and not enough to make a difference for bowsers success on Kain. Where are you pulling 1% from? seriously....what nonsense, and htis is the top skin layer, you realise this is purely on his claws so hes going to have to stand there scratching Kain like a cat, making small cuts until he hits bone and shatters his claws.
Ok then? This isnt appeal to audience, its appeal to the un-written rules. No no no, you're calcs say 146% increase. Scene agrees that Bowser is 20x stronger. Scream disagrees with your calcs. Rain disagrees with your calcs and see's it as Bowser being 1kx stronger. Thats the views, now what? Bowser's strength over 3 claws is I believe due to the recent increase 900x Raziel's strength over 2 claws. Reziels force is 1.1% of Bowser's.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Whats this some arrogant sarcasm again? its being sour, your shot down so you think everyone else has to follow what you bowed your head to. I doubt it, Kain would still take him out but anyway. And if you dont convince your opposition (me at the moment) of your math then theres no point in it right? yet you still do it so your thesis collapses.
Kinda funny. I say once that I'm not being arrogant and you jump at it.. fun to see your mind work. Ahh the sour thing, oh and bowing too? ^^ Too right, it keeps me awake at night that I didnt get it so now I don my mask at night stopping people from getting it... *cough-cough* Yeah, my aim here isnt to convince you, its to convince people in general. You wont agree for some stubborn reason but others will. See, my maths is still convincing people. Can you say the same about this?

Originally posted by Burning thought
You know nothing about my time here, youve been here for a fraction of the time, me being again it is irrelevent, its not a general practice if its just been made up by newcomers is it silly. so is your flawed grasp on replies, you have to try and make quibs to keep up. Re-read the laws, nano thickness knives do not launch their users into the air, or explode the piecies their cutting. Whats the point? to get a factual answer, I am not going to cut physics up because a few angry fans dont like it.
I know you used to be a much chipper and carefree person at the start of your days o: But alas I do know about your time here as in any thread since Ive been here that involves maths you'd be the first to oppose it. Not a stretch to assume that you didnt bring maths to games before that either. So in fact you're the new one when it comes to maths :/ Nah, not my place to say but your words are more aggro then usual since that rant earlier. Lol re-read the laws? How about you try reading them. 3rd law. Ahh but Raziel doesnt have nanoblades, he has claws, Meaning if Kain didnt get pierced he would be sent flying. Concede to the bounce? An irl factual answer that disregards a feat for any fault or a fictitious answer that can be applied to all fictions?

Originally posted by BloodRain
Lol swing and a miss~ Can you be sure that its the same cross? Can you be sure that the ball being shot through the air could not have moved on decent? If you can then by all means, show me your evidence. Until then I'll be sticking to the fact that a sphere is a sphere and not a football ^^;

And if I could laugh irl I'd be choking on wtfness on that last part. So now youre on the boat that it must be shaped like a football? Alright chief.


Weight pressing down, it needed a little push like I said. Geez why couldnt you ask that when I said it weeks ago? This is how it goes: If the height is unknown then the a 6ft average is used. The exception being the character is short/tall in their verse or is from a short/tall species. Currently I can think of no one in this category.. bad memory. If the height can be found then we use it. Link=6ft=horse shoulder, Kratos=8ft=cos they said so, Dante=6'3"=cos they said so, and Raziel=5'9"=height compared to Kain who=6'3"=taller than 6ft tall people. Done pointing fingers now?


Squatting is standing in a different tense o-o Hmmm. Accept BT idea that the mark is right by the diameter thus turning the shpere we know it is into a football shape... or agree with myself that a sphere is a sphere.. See, I'm having issues believing that the ball transformed before hitting him then turned back when thrown back. Just me? Aannnnnnnnnnnddddddd while I'm here; Look at the image posted above, the one I edited from your post. If you'll notice I stuck Bowser's face on in the same position as if he was looking forward. The weight above him is making him 17cm shorter then usual. In actually he's hardly squatting at all..


Ok then? This isnt appeal to audience, its appeal to the un-written rules. No no no, you're calcs say 146% increase. Scene agrees that Bowser is 20x stronger. Scream disagrees with your calcs. Rain disagrees with your calcs and see's it as Bowser being 1kx stronger. Thats the views, now what? Bowser's strength over 3 claws is I believe due to the recent increase 900x Raziel's strength over 2 claws. Reziels force is 1.1% of Bowser's.


Kinda funny. I say once that I'm not being arrogant and you jump at it.. fun to see your mind work. Ahh the sour thing, oh and bowing too? ^^ Too right, it keeps me awake at night that I didnt get it so now I don my mask at night stopping people from getting it... *cough-cough* Yeah, my aim here isnt to convince you, its to convince people in general. You wont agree for some stubborn reason but others will. See, my maths is still convincing people. Can you say the same about this?


I know you used to be a much chipper and carefree person at the start of your days o: But alas I do know about your time here as in any thread since Ive been here that involves maths you'd be the first to oppose it. Not a stretch to assume that you didnt bring maths to games before that either. So in fact you're the new one when it comes to maths :/ Nah, not my place to say but your words are more aggro then usual since that rant earlier. Lol re-read the laws? How about you try reading them. 3rd law. Ahh but Raziel doesnt have nanoblades, he has claws, Meaning if Kain didnt get pierced he would be sent flying. Concede to the bounce? An irl factual answer that disregards a feat for any fault or a fictitious answer that can be applied to all fictions?

I have no reason to belive theres more than one identicle mark on the object, far more reason to belive that mark than your claims and reaching, it moving has no relevence clearly by the time it lands the cross is still present, its like me asking a silly question like how do you know it has no changed shape or a different object fell and the original we see disapeared? all silly questions, we know the cross, we know where it is on the object.

Relax sport, your claim has been countered by the fact an obvious mark is giving us the location of the diameter.

What do you mean weight pressing down? according to you a whopping 62% over half is on the side its about to fall, surely by any logical deduction it should already be going over the heavier side? Tbh, looking about online it seems fans of link on other forums think hes only about 5ft if that due to him being shorter than a lot of characters also where do they say this about Dante? I dont recall his height being mentioned. I like how you assume Raziel has to be shorter than you belived than Kain simply taller, considering their biology (massive hands and feet) its likely their larger if anything.

Not really, how is squatting standing? his back is over and his chins almost touching the ground, hes not standing tall as if nothing has fazed him also dont forget Bowser is struggling here, as opposed to Raziels effortless movements. It did not transform at all, infact my suggestion is that the angle we see it at is odd, if you looked at a rugby ball from a side view it could look less like a rugby ball. The only fact we have, is that the cross is at the diameter. To add to the bowser thing, an object does not have to be beaten by higher strength to slow down to a halt.

Yes because neither Scene or scream are bias at all, not sure rain is either and your still making an appeal to audiance. 4 claws, vs 2 claws, 6000 tons vs 300 tons with higher velocity.

Since i am the only opposition whats the point of convincing people who already think bowser wins? how do you know their convinced by your math and are not simply agreeing with you because it helps their case? you dont. I have proven to be the least stubborn one here, I have agreed to points I am in opposition to in here, in the bayonetta thread and even waste time calculating things for the opposition and admit power has more power. You cannot convince someone if they were not in disagreement with you in the first place, and if your not convincing the opposition (just me) then again, its worthless. I convince my pals here in the good ol Uk, if I get them to log into KMC and say they agree do I get the same credit you keep boosting yourself with?

And you never had to keep bringing up personal attributes (possible implied ab hominem?) at the start of yours, you could just get on with an argument but since getting more under pressure you seem to buckle into spamming more "sport", "chief" nonsense then claiming its not an antagonism, again I have been playing this far more longer than you. You said the same as before, no matter whether or not I started using the math in the threads a day or two after someone else theres no "general practice". Well you miss the point, its similiar reasoning, small areas do not create the same force as a puncn which would send him flying. I ignored the whole bounce thing, you ignore enough of my stuff and I dont think you even have a case, it does not bounce like you seem to try to imply that its light. Its just been put under Raziels 800+ tons of force and its only 300 itself.

Originally posted by Burning thought
I have no reason to belive theres more than one identicle mark on the object, far more reason to belive that mark than your claims and reaching, it moving has no relevence clearly by the time it lands the cross is still present, its like me asking a silly question like how do you know it has no changed shape or a different object fell and the original we see disapeared? all silly questions, we know the cross, we know where it is on the object.

Relax sport, your claim has been countered by the fact an obvious mark is giving us the location of the diameter.

So bottom line, you would rather believe that its not a sphere anymore due to a mark then believe its remains a sphere?

Rain-"There are probable more marks on it''
BT-"The iron ball changes shape"

And you think my claim is the reach? O____o;;

Sport? Given your views on these names is this your way of 'being arrogant, demeaning and trying to impress me' like you said it was? ^^

Originally posted by Burning thought
What do you mean weight pressing down? according to you a whopping 62% over half is on the side its about to fall, surely by any logical deduction it should already be going over the heavier side? Tbh, looking about online it seems fans of link on other forums think hes only about 5ft if that due to him being shorter than a lot of characters also where do they say this about Dante? I dont recall his height being mentioned. I like how you assume Raziel has to be shorter than you belived than Kain simply taller, considering their biology (massive hands and feet) its likely their larger if anything.
Gravity would pull the weight vertically down, due to the angle and the heavier set base the mass would still need some kind of momentum. But nt much momentum as most of the weight would pull itself down. Ive read those things. They're just assumptions, especially making his height that of an average 13 year old when he's 17. He's as tall or taller then most of the people, he's as tall as Epona's shoulder and is near 5in taller than Malon. Unless the populace are all 5'3'', Epona isn't the breed of horse we think or Malon is as tall as a 9 year old girl.... you get the point. For Dante Capcom released a DMC4 height chart. I assume that Raziel has to be shorter than I believe? What? Kain is slightly taller than the people I assume are 6' tall at 6'3''. As Ive shown Raziel is around 90% of Kain's height. Not sure what their altered anatomy has to do with their overall height.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Not really, how is squatting standing? his back is over and his chins almost touching the ground, hes not standing tall as if nothing has fazed him also dont forget Bowser is struggling here, as opposed to Raziels effortless movements. It did not transform at all, infact my suggestion is that the angle we see it at is odd, if you looked at a rugby ball from a side view it could look less like a rugby ball. The only fact we have, is that the cross is at the diameter. To add to the bowser thing, an object does not have to be beaten by higher strength to slow down to a halt.
I was using the broad term of squatting and standing being in the same category of being on two feet as apposed to kneeling, hopping, lying down etc. When he's standing in that scene he's 2.13m tall, when the ball ball] is on him he's 1.83m. Thats a 30cm drop in height, to a 6ft person having a weight on their shoulders and only squatting by 25cm. So no, he isnt 'crawling' or anywhere close. Actually it wasnt as effortless as you believe. It was more of simply using the same animation as always as if it was that effortless then he would not have failed when trying to push it over. ''Bowser struggled to support something over 20x heavier than what Raziel could flip over.'' Thats a false view. If it was the same cross then for it to be in that position and for it to look like a rugby ball the camera would need to give it an underhead view. But thw whole game has a low overhead view that borders on parallel. Its not the angle, its parallel to our view <- is also suggested by the lighting. They have already shown that when the ball in the backgrounds appearance alters to when it comes to the foreground with that same mark changing in size. You take that as nothing but the scene difference but different rules when it comes to the placement. Sum up: Underhead view is what you want, but thats not in the scene. Only if the resisting object isnt supporting itself and is just in the way like a rock would. But thats not the case as neither his arms or legs give way.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Yes because neither Scene or scream are bias at all, not sure rain is either and your still making an appeal to audiance. 4 claws, vs 2 claws, 6000 tons vs 300 tons with higher velocity.
Personally havnt seen Scene post in an negative bias way. Nor have I seen Scream be negatively bias when it comes to calculations. And would them being overly negatively bias as you see it be the same as yourself being overly positively bias towards Kain? /mindblown-pow/ Scream and myself are fans of maths and disagree. Scene and Neme that i know know about this stuff and disagree and Leo looks like he knows a thing or two and also disagrees. Im sure all 5 of us are in some anti-BT&Kain group, right? Appeal to audience is "They dont think so so it must not be true", while what Im doing is ''Maths enthusiasts and and others that know about it disagree your calcs" Its more me confirming my views with other people. 3 claws and 6,541 tons actually. If you mean velocity by for the primary feat then Bowser's is better, if you mean by strike speed then its equal.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Since i am the only opposition whats the point of convincing people who already think bowser wins? how do you know their convinced by your math and are not simply agreeing with you because it helps their case? you dont. I have proven to be the least stubborn one here, I have agreed to points I am in opposition to in here, in the bayonetta thread and even waste time calculating things for the opposition and admit power has more power. You cannot convince someone if they were not in disagreement with you in the first place, and if your not convincing the opposition (just me) then again, its worthless. I convince my pals here in the good ol Uk, if I get them to log into KMC and say they agree do I get the same credit you keep boosting yourself with?
Because I know you and know you wont back down to Kain winning and his durability being what you think it is. Take Carver-boy for example. The only way I convinced someone like him was to find undeniable in-verse proof. As we're dealing with out-of-verse things it takes something else, in this case other people who know/know of maths. Yeah.... none of that makes you the least stubborn one here, not the least in the least ^^; Actually you'll find that you can. Everyone is neutral before seeing the point or a calc, now if I can make them positive then Ive convinced them. Its more like Im mostly sure you wont change the view ya had set before, but may as well try. If not ive still convinced others who understand it. Thats good enough ^^ Sure, if you can get them to understand the maths, calcs and theyre fine with debating the point if needs be then go for it. The more the merrier~ But unless they're able to understand and debate it and aren't simple yes-men, then thats just hollow numbers.

Originally posted by Burning thought
And you never had to keep bringing up personal attributes (possible implied ab hominem?) at the start of yours, you could just get on with an argument but since getting more under pressure you seem to buckle into spamming more "sport", "chief" nonsense then claiming its not an antagonism, again I have been playing this far more longer than you. You said the same as before, no matter whether or not I started using the math in the threads a day or two after someone else theres no "general practice". Well you miss the point, its similiar reasoning, small areas do not create the same force as a puncn which would send him flying. I ignored the whole bounce thing, you ignore enough of my stuff and I dont think you even have a case, it does not bounce like you seem to try to imply that its light. Its just been put under Raziels 800+ tons of force and its only 300 itself.
Nah, if the person Im talking to brings it up I'm gonna reply to it. Just like in our Mewtwo/Kain thread only 2 months into my start here, you mentioned personal things so I followed suit. And would I be more under pressure at the start of my times and not when I know whats going on? And thats what you think it is, people here are fine with it. I'd thought you'd understand that being a fellow Brit >: 'chap' 'guv' we invented these nicks. Nah youve been debating longer for sure, but Im pretty sure Ive been debating maths here longer /shrugs. If it doesnt pierce, no matter what, it will send the force in the the 3rd law states that Kain would be launched back at around 80m/s for 272kj strength, much faster with the force you suggest is backing it. Other way round. You say its the tip that caused it but if so the base would rise in opposition to leaning on the tip. But that didnt happen, it bounced without the base moving. A 300 ton obelisk wouldnt fall down and bounce. And:
Originally posted by General Kaliero
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
A character's strength is what creates the speed of their strike. I cannot figure out how fast Link's sword is moving, and then add the force created by the swing to the swing, because that's just multiplying Link's strength by Link's strength.


IE, false inflation.
I have to point out this is completely true. The acceleration of the swing is what determines the force of the strike, it cannot be combined with the force as it's a component of that force. Math doesn't work that way.

And nicely doubled into one quote. Just for that physics thing. And another guy who gets it and disagrees here.

Originally posted by BloodRain
So bottom line, you would rather believe that its not a sphere anymore due to a mark then believe its remains a sphere?

Rain-"There are probable more marks on it''
BT-"The iron ball changes shape"

And you think my claim is the reach? O____o;;

Sport? Given your views on these names is this your way of 'being arrogant, demeaning and trying to impress me' like you said it was? ^^


Gravity would pull the weight vertically down, due to the angle and the heavier set base the mass would still need some kind of momentum. But nt much momentum as most of the weight would pull itself down. Ive read those things. They're just assumptions, especially making his height that of an average 13 year old when he's 17. He's as tall or taller then most of the people, he's as tall as Epona's shoulder and is near 5in taller than Malon. Unless the populace are all 5'3'', Epona isn't the breed of horse we think or Malon is as tall as a 9 year old girl.... you get the point. For Dante Capcom released a DMC4 height chart. I assume that Raziel has to be shorter than I believe? What? Kain is slightly taller than the people I assume are 6' tall at 6'3''. As Ive shown Raziel is around 90% of Kain's height. Not sure what their altered anatomy has to do with their overall height.


I was using the broad term of squatting and standing being in the same category of being on two feet as apposed to kneeling, hopping, lying down etc. When he's standing in that scene he's 2.13m tall, when the ball ball] is on him he's 1.83m. Thats a 30cm drop in height, to a 6ft person having a weight on their shoulders and only squatting by 25cm. So no, he isnt 'crawling' or anywhere close. Actually it wasnt as effortless as you believe. It was more of simply using the same animation as always as if it was that effortless then he would not have failed when trying to push it over. ''Bowser struggled to support something over 20x heavier than what Raziel could flip over.'' Thats a false view. If it was the same cross then for it to be in that position and for it to look like a rugby ball the camera would need to give it an underhead view. But thw whole game has a low overhead view that borders on parallel. Its not the angle, its parallel to our view <- is also suggested by the lighting. They have already shown that when the ball in the backgrounds appearance alters to when it comes to the foreground with that same mark changing in size. You take that as nothing but the scene difference but different rules when it comes to the placement. Sum up: Underhead view is what you want, but thats not in the scene. Only if the resisting object isnt supporting itself and is just in the way like a rock would. But thats not the case as neither his arms or legs give way.

I think the mark is concrete evidence that its either not a sphere, or its dimensions are not the same as you believe.

Well its not a reach, its a fact, its a fact theres a cross on its dimeter.

Tbh I was just being a mimic.

Why would it be pulled vertically if the weight on the apprent heavier side according to you is greater on the side its going to fall? makes no sense at all. Apprently hes smaller than most of the women. it has quite a lot to do with it when Kains feet are extended and large, theres no reason to belive Raziel just has to be smaller than 6ft just because hes shorter than Kain.

His body is not standing, undeformed by the ball therefore some absorbtion of force is taken into account not just him catching it on his stronger arms and standing firm. His chin is nearly scraping the floor, his anatomy is not the same as a humans. Exactly, Raziel does it with no more difficulty than he does the smaller blocks, effortless and apprently according to you with such force on the push that he instills enough potential energy to knock it up half a meter when it hits the ground. They dont give way completly, his body gets pushed down though, having such a squat form it makes sense. Also what are you getting at with the ball? the cross/mark on it is a fact, simple, you cant try and worm out of the fact it gives us a clear idea of where the center is without speculation, the ball is off-screen as well at one point.

Originally posted by BloodRain



Well tbh you have not argued against him iirc, if you did you would realise he stubborny stands behind any point consistently for his side and rarely if ever argues any point in favour of the oppositions character. But your not confirming anything really, apart from opinions which are mostly bias. He has 4 which based on the evidence as shown when he uses his claws, he uses 4. Also equel? show me bowsers compared to Raziels please.

You dont know at all, I agreed with a lot of BS in teh bayonetta thread and in this one, even calculated a favourable outcome for bowsers PSi being more than Raziels, the calculation is pretty easy and straight forward, you getting a handfull of people you vouch for yourself for your argument does not cover you or deny it. You cannot prove anyone is neutral, nor can you prove you have convinced anyone. Why do I have to get them to understand the maths or even debate it? your bringing up people who simply claim is wrong, e.g. Nemebro, Leo, you dont actually have them with an argument or a basis, infact neither do you. Well, tbh you have nothing but hollow numbers also known as an appeal to audiance.

You sort of ignored the point here. It sends the force, like a knife does to a tiny area, an area not enough to launch anyone, as I pointed out with micro/nano knives that have such tiny blades even human strength would be spread across an incredible tiny area, its no different in force to a person than a normal knife, you dont get knocked around . This simply proves Raziels strength was far more influencial in his push than I first thought, sort of makes up for the 1 meter or two in my calc.

Screampaste claims the characters strength creates the speed, this is not covered in most games vs characters. Dantes speed and power come from his devil heritige, his devil energy and other things not chemical reactions in his muscles which are not much bigger than a peak human athlete. Do you have any idea how fast Kratos' thousands of tons of strength should make him run, jump etc if its source was really his muscles? His claim is unfound, most if not all characters in games vs have an outside source, divine power (kratos), supernatural force (Dante, Kain), magic (bayonetta, links gauntlets) that equel the forces we use in a vs. If I pick up a cardboard box, the speed I pick it up as, assuming I did it slowly because I was not in a hurry is not the max speed I can move, punch etc.

Acceleration is something multiplied with striking power to get force, its basic physics;

Originally posted by General Kaliero


Force = mass X acceleration. In the case of say, a punch, the mass is going to be constant, so the output Force is dependent on the acceleration. Simply put, a faster punch hits harder, That much is true.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Yes I tought as much, he does not use it against anything durable. Paper mario, some sort of puppet, he does not use it in bowsers inside story, we dont even know if he has much strength in those other games by comparison.

You seem to have missed the point of those scenes. I was simply showing that Bowser does use his claws, and in fact has mimicked the stab Raziel used to beat Kain. In addition, Paper Mario got shot out of a cannon to the moon and tanks lightning bolts, not sure where you got the lack of durability from.



Raziel never canonically attempts to damage any vampires (save Kain) with his claws, which essentially derails your entire argument for their durability. On the other hand, we do know that the portcullis canonically worked.



Raziel never canonically tried to attack, though, so by your own argument, they have no durability. Therefore humans beating them in melee makes perfect sense. If you want to make a "suggestion," you definitely should back it up, otherwise you've done nothing to dispute the evidence that the pole-arms are melee weapons.



He never conically tried, as per your new argument. Thus you have no case. Bowser's claws are still sharp enough to impale, especially with his strength.



None of that will stop the proven, canonical weakness to fire that Kain retains as a vampire. Unless Kain can fly, he's not resisting inhalation. What with it being based mostly on mass and volume.



Done, but again it does not matter because Dumah catches on fire before the explosion. No matter how hot it is, heat does not actually do what you are describing.



No. Ask yourself if Kain could replicate the feat. Based on what he's done, the answer is no. I don't do math, it's not my thing, in a similar way to how math is not really your thing. I could try, but it isn't worth the effort.



Credibility? Really. I was just working with what you gave me, which was a massive double standard concerning your favorite ability. If the dimensional teleport counts, so does the catch card, because they are the same thing and you making up a distinction doesn't really change that. Of course, I could always mentions that Kain canonically never used the dimension reaver as per your argument, and in doing so doubly invalidate it.



But we also know that Kain was absorbing the wraith blade and Raziel, so it effectively cancels out. Raziel then rips out Kain's heart, proving that he does not actually have such durability. I admit I have trouble with some definition when you continuously change them, yes.



http://i.ytimg.com/vi/LXpA72RE6v8/0.jpg

Blood Omen 2 is not exactly a paragon of consistency. Seems like a simple mistake, since the scar wasn't actually important until defiance.



He had the wound before he became a vampire, there's not much of a reason for it to heal. Since it's regeneration, and the scar was already there.




All of that still applies to the card, save that it's not a "spell," which a worthless designation where the game is concerned. The player isn't playing once the card is activated, and you can't change the animation or those it affects. So they are the exact same thing and you can't allow one without the other. Bowser was at the center of the star, supernova, black hole, and big bang, though.



EVIDENCE FOR NOTHING SPECIFIC. JUST SUPPORT YOUR CLAIMS.

Look, how about the claim that the humans have a siege engine? You haven't yet supported Raziel's strength. You haven't supported Kain's strength or speed. You haven't supported spells, the Soul Reaver, heck almost everything you've claimed in this thread lacks evidence, I'm just asking you to give some. Nothing specific, I'm asking for everything in general.



What the catch card does is scripted, then. It doesn't affect the way the player interacts with the universe, as it's just a scripted item.



Unless you can prove other minds are fragile, they have their own baseline separate from humans, which are stated to be below. You're the one assuming all minds are fragile just because humans are.

Besides, I don't think he can really affect Bowser's brain computer.

But your evidence fails, because on Mario's scale the blood would not appear liquid. He would be more likely to see red blood cells and plasma, which is yellow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyuwPBvmHQw

Consider the following:

When inside the body, living bones are actually red. This is mostly because one of their many functions is to produce blood, in the marrow. Bones only turn white after their living parts die and rot away. Now, consider the above video: Bowser's bones are white. This means that he has no viable way of producing blood cells. So logically he has no blood. Bowser has completely alien anatomy, there's no real reason he has to have blood, is there?



It destroyed the comet observatory and multiple ships, why are you ignoring this? Mario has a Luma in his hat and if you weren't watching, was protected by Rosalina when she gave the speech about stardust. It's a supernova, I shouldn't have to explain why it is powerful.



If Bowser is immune to time stops in his games, why can't he be against Kain? Vs. canon statement, the canon takes precedence. It only looks slow to them, have you considered that? I notice that bullets and cannons move at a similar speed, both of which we know are near sonic or supersonic speeds. That seems fairly consistent. If anything, the gameplay mechanic would be slowing it down so the player could see it, while in actuality it is at the speed of sound.



Yes, and you appear to be ignoring the speed that that indicates in your response. Unless you have a legitimate reason for sound to not move at the speed of sound? Actually, game mechanics does work for that one, since the player can't actually dodge sound.




Your points didn't actually dispute me, though. For game mechanics, they could have put those little floating balls that restore your health instead if humans, nut no, they chose to have humans there. For your story reason, the Circle "bringing them to experiment on" doesn't explain why they were not transformed. And then, again, your third point didn't make sense. You have not given sufficient reasoning to dispute these, so it still isn't a feat. Until there's a legitimate reason the humans weren't transformed, Kain has no feat.



Why would you ignore comedy? It would be at this point I remind you that Kain is fallible, though. He never really says, or sees, a human get transformed.



No, it just has a bigger area. It's not like it matters how big a bomb is if you're right next to it. Still, we don't see a human being transformed, nor does Kain. He doesn't state that Dark Eden affects humans, either. Given that humans are in the area, it seems he was proven wrong. Bowser, on the oher hand, transformed them as soon as he gt the Star Rod.



It happens, game starts.



Originally posted by JesterGeorge
This man speaks the truth. Kain is just too strong for Poopa to even go against. With a flick of his wrist, he'll pop Pooopa's brain like jelly, or manhandle him with magic or brute force. The so-called King wouldn't last a minute with Kain in hand fighting, or with magic. Your cute and cuddly turtle thing, lost this round, hard. GG, not really.

Doesn't look like it helped you too much.

Originally posted by The Scenario


Which one was supposed to mimic raziels jump/slash with 2 claws? I dont recall it. I dont know how much of that is gameplay or just a toon feat that shows a cannon that cannot launch tiny mushroom critters as far at the same time, you can never tell with you.

However, he canonically mensions how he needs to find other ways of destroying vampires, its not actually suggested here, only in practice like most battles. I assume most things work on Melchiah, hes rotting anyway, infact I think a lot of the flesh that makes up his body is human skin.

Yes he did, he pointed out he has to defeat them using something other than millions of tons PSI, "modify his tactics". I have yet to see that evidence tbh, all you keep spamming is the video that has what your claiming as pole arms in the vampires.

Impalement for vampires consists of consistent damage, his claws can just about get through Kains skin, let alone causea constant wound. hes going to have to move his hand back for another strike eventually unless your theory is hes going to stand there with his hand in Kains skin to make sure it does not heal .

Youve yet to prove fire can melt Kain the same way it does to normal vamps, which is still yet unproven canon because you mistake animation speeds, apprently this wood is also really flammable;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJMkclBMhGE&feature=relmfu#t=1m3s

A real beam of that size would not turn into an inferno in like 1/2 seconds if that and our friend LeadingMan points it out. This proves that eitherA; the rendering engine makes all fire burn fast, regardless of real speed (my claim) OR. B; the industry of Kains empire and the general world have increased the fires intensity and made objects more flammable. He can just dig his feet in the ground or something, Bowsers breath as shown can capture featless creatures, not someone as strong as Kain.

Sure he catches on fire, but he dies after the explosion and whats more the heat is still enough to cause that explosion.

Well yes, he could because he can take 16x the core pressure of the real sun on his body. By comparison, Bowsers sun is not much bigger than a small country.


the same thing? ones an item whos power has to be used on bowser canonically for your claim to work. Kains port is an ability whos effects are scripted, it does not have to caonically hapen unless I was claiming Kain used it to beat a powerful opponent before which I have not claimed. Your catch card also states canoncally that it may not even work, regardless of its target. He canonically gains it, it canonically does what is stated. I am not argueing the catchcard does not do what it states to do, otherwise then it would be a double standard but i am not doing that.

Kain does not do that, the reaver attempts to absorbs raziel. Your confused about the whole state of affairs. Purified Raziel at the end of defiance through choice heals Kain, along with the scar.

If I am not mistaen your image is not from defiance its from the SR 2 fmv. Although this does not counter the fact BO 2 he did not have a scar, tbh even I thought he had a scar from his assasination (not as large as the dark mark in your image) but it seems based on BO2 this is not there anymore? I dont know what your dakr mark in that image is, infact its far larger than the sword wound made by Kains assasination, far larger than the sword.

You confused your own argument and mine at the same time ,good job. I never said it has no effect, only that you can never prove Bowser canonically got hit by its power, its completly player choice so your failing at trying to find a double standard when I am not claiming the ability itself does not work the way the game tells us which is what your doing for hte dimention reaver. how do you know? Technically if bowser was durable enough to survive the supernova he should be hurtling through space from its explosion/implosion, we dont actually see any of them inside it tbh.

That was a suggestion to disprove your suggestion, youve yet to prove facts so I dont have to either concerning the Dumahim dead. Wtf...theres tons of proof on raziels strength all over the place. yes I have, thats like me claiming you have not supported anything, not even bowser.

its not scripted because for your claim to work Bowser would have to have canonically been struck by it, further even the power itself is not scripted to work a specific way, it can apprently randomly fail.

I dont have to prove other minds are fragile, you have to prove other minds are not as fragile than humans. No not really, I am claiming unless someone has a better feat than a human then their fair game for the spell.

Why? if anything a shock would ruin a computer even more than an organic brain imo.



Originally posted by The Scenario


If hes at DNA scale I doubt he would even see that.

Does Bowser have a heart?

Because its a gameplay mechanic (see boss mechanic), and again it cannot be proven the timestop even happens, you cant just bring up an item Mario can use at the behest of a player then claim it actually happened in the canon. Well thats another claim, can you prove it looks slow to them? I imagine most things in the game look slow, I would not doubt if I played the game I would see projectiles and creatures of all shapes/sizes moving at the same speed, because its a mechanic.

My legitimate reason is that it simply does not in the mario universe, just like how black holes are more akin to the pull of a kitchen sinks plug hole draining water and that its stars are tiny.

I gave reasons, you claiming "does not explain" does not counter me, you forget this place is under the sorcerors control to some degree andy you sort of ignored the other reasons. Also your debunked by Kain anyway;



Humans are transformed, why those already within the Dome are not can be any of my suggestions, does not counter what the dome does. If anything, it may not be canon those people were even there, as I said a mechanic.

kain is not fallible on something he actually sees though.

I dont understand that statement, "it happens, game starts"? so your saying we dont know, its ambigious....

Well tbh no more than I expected, but apprently I can bring him up later and claim he agreed with me as if it makes my argument so much stronger!

Originally posted by Burning thought
Which one was supposed to mimic raziels jump/slash with 2 claws? I dont recall it. I dont know how much of that is gameplay or just a toon feat that shows a cannon that cannot launch tiny mushroom critters as far at the same time, you can never tell with you.

You misunderstood; I said the "stab that Raziel use to beat Kain," which should mean it was a thrust attack, not a slash, much less a jump.



All he mentions is that he'd have to modify his tactics, and that is again in reference to regeneration, not durability. He still never attempted anything. Melchiah was still canonically taken out by the portcullis, so yeah.

]

He again made no attempts, so you still really don't have a case. I have, on the other hand, shown you the pole-arms that were used to kill vampires by humans, while you have...what? I can't recall you actually doing anything to dispute it.



A deep enough wound seems to have quite a bit of trouble recovering, though, and since Kain has lost his regeneration it won't be a problem keeping him wounded. Or he could tear Kain's heart out again.



Actually, I have already. Kain is a vampire, fire is a stated weakness, and I have two canon cutscenes contradicting your unsupported claim. Because Kain is vampire, you are actually obligated to prove he has some resistance, preferably with real fire this time. By the way, I see no problem with the wood burning that fast, if you recall that Bowser burns entire trees faster than that.



Or C, it's made of balsa. Or the wood is rotten and dried. Possibly treated with a fast burning chemical of some kind. Seriously, though?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vt1VNEWl9I0#t=4m54s

It doesn't actually matter. Bowser is burning a larger quantity of living (harder to burn) wood in a faster time, which pretty much invalidates everything you just posted. You still haven't countered the burning vampires, either, not like it matters because Bowser could burn them, too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vt1VNEWl9I0#t=7m17s

Let's see...Toadsworth (featless), Mario (strength), Peach (magic), Starlow (magic, basically featless) and Luigi (strength, legitimate ability to run on air.) Kain's never experienced this ability before; good chance of catching him by surprise, and if he digs in he's set up for fire breath.



He's flailing in pain and unable to move while he's on fire anyway. The explosive did very little, if anything. As it was a gas explosion.



Wait for the math to pan out before you try it. You've been told by multiple people that you're wrong, and you're using a flawed calculation base, so I'm not exactly ready to accept that. Kain would burn to ash anyway.



The card's effect is also scripted, so trying to make that distinction is a bit of a double standard. Especially since you're trying to use it as a speed feat, which would require him canonically doing it. I'm simply claiming that the catch card is scripted in what it does, and canonically does what it's stated, which is stealing an enemy's soul, just doesn't work on Bowser. You're trying to use the dimensional reaver as a speed feat, essentially the same situation, since both are scripted events that didn't canonically happen. You want one, you have to take the other. Anything else would be something of a double standard.



On the other hand, it still doesn't happen by choice in Soul Reaver 2 and that part of Defiance. The Reaver was still trying to absorb Raziel, and Kain was likely trying to absorb the Wraith Blade. Not changing any of the facts here.



I'm simply claiming that Blood Omen 2 was a mistake. Whole game, one huge mistake. Didn't really need to be in the series, ugh. There are infinite possibilities for it, because apparently it didn't really happen. Maybe Kain wasn't originally killed by a stab to the chest, maybe the Cabal healed it, maybe Vorador popped out of it alive and well to suddenly be alive for no reason. It's not like any other LoK games are actually affected by what happened in Blood Omen 2, save Kain getting a random burst of knowledge. The scar being gone is mostly irrelevant.

Nothing really stops a scar from being bigger than the wound. Internal damage and all that.



Quite the contrary. You're trying to claim that the dimension reaver has a scripted effect, but you are trying to use it as a speed feat that would require a canon instance to be proven. I am quite similarly trying to claim that the catch card has a scripted effect, but I am trying to use it as a resistance feat that would require a canon instance to be proven. You can to have both, or neither, but you cannot have one without also having the other. In effect, should you choose to give Kain speed, Bowser gains soul resistance; should you take away Bowser's soul resistance, Kain loses his speed.

Prove your suggestion, then. Otherwise I could just "suggest" that the Hylden are magically moving all of Raziel's block puzzles and he only looks strong, and I wouldn't have to give evidence because it's just a "suggestion," or "possibility." If you want 'siege engine' as a valid possibility, show me a darn siege engine. My main problem is with you not posting the actual evidence, you just say you have it "all over the place" without actually putting it in the current thread. If I want a Raziel feat I have to go to youtube myself or look at another thread, while if you want a Bowser feat you can refer to basically any of my posts, or just page 3-4 of this thread. See what you did with the burning wood video, or even the god-awful Blood Omen picture? Good, that's fine; perfect, even. Saying "it's everywhere,"? No, that's mean.



Not randomly; it only has a chance to fail against powerful creatures, and it only outright never works against Bowser or bosses (since Bowser doesn't really count as a boss in that game.) Assuming we're still talking about the catch card, that is. Still, all it indicates is that lots of powerful monsters (and Bowser) have soul resistance. Besides, you trying to get a speed feat out of the dimension Reaver is no different.



Not how it works. Humans are specifically picked out as being vulnerable. Anything non-human (thus not specified) is not stated to be vulnerable. Picture it like this:

---------------------------Extraordinary (likely Bowser)

-----------------Baseline

------Human (vulnerable)

While it is true that we typically use humans as the baseline for a power, in this case it is humans who are stated to be below the baseline in mental strength. Thus nonhumans aren't really vulnerable by virtue of not being the target. Bowser is even more difficult for having a completely alien mind, not only having a computer but a completely separate consciousness. It's too inhuman to have a chance of being affected.



He can see bones. Said bones are not red, thus not making blood, thus no blood. I can definitively say that Mario does not encounter a heart, but it is again impossible to prove a lack of something. I could say Bowser is considered heartless.



Well, same situation with you. You can't just claim that Kain has super reactions when you can't prove Kain reacted to anything. These are tied together, too. Can't have one without the other. If you want Kain to be fast, Bowser gets the immunities he is known to have.

See, the thing is, while it looks slow in game, it's still moving at the speed of sound according to canon statements. You understand that by saying it's a mechanic you are agreeing with me, right?



Not really a legitimate reason. Unless you can prove that the speed of sound is slower in the Mario universe. Just that it seems slow in game isn't good enough, because it's still stated to be sound.



On the other hand, I'm sure you noticed that both of those quotes occur quite a bit outside the field. Kain does not see them transformed, and the presence of humans inside the field still proves him wrong. You're the one assuming a few creatures Kain thinks are or were humans suddenly means all humans are affected; a notion defeated by the presence of humans inside the field. Note the word Kain used: "grafted," as in surgically attatched, as in, one of Anarcrothe's hobbies. Kain doesn't really specify what magic he's talking about. They could be failed chimera attemps from Anarcrothe's lab for all we know.



Except it does, since unaffected humans means humans can resist, and therefore it's not impressive. The gameplay argument falls flat when you consider that health can also be restored by certain floating balls and that would eliminate the need for humans.



Besides which, Kain still finds human corpses.



He's assuming or guessing that the monster were once human, he's assuming or guessing it was from dark magic (while still outside Dark Eden), and he is proven wrong and is generally contradicted by himself and the presence of humans inside Dark Eden.



I mean Bowser does it, kidnaps Peach, goes to his castle, and then the game starts.

Psssssst. Sceeeene. He doesn't believe the ball was at the dimensions we got for it. He thinks it the shape of a football/ellipsoid D;
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Burning thought
I think the mark is concrete evidence that its either not a sphere, or its dimensions are not the same as you believe.

Well its not a reach, its a fact, its a fact theres a cross on its dimeter.

Tbh I was just being a mimic.
Not a sphere? Oh c'mon D: Its called the S.U.W.U.R Great Iron Ball, its just like a cannon ball with the cannon being a circle and is a ball when it comes out. In the air its X and Y dimensions is a circle, the cannon shows its dimension is also a circle. Its a sphere. And its dimensions have to be what I drew for it to be a sphere.

You have your fact that theres a mark on it, and I have my fact that it doesnt change shape. There is no reason that my fact can be wrong as.. it cant change shape. On the other hand there can be reasons to fault yours like it not being the same mark and/or its just a graphical thing like how it appears larger in the background.


Cos gravity pulls things vertically down? The 'blue' side has a larger weight at the base the base of the 'orange' side, so Raziel would give that 38% on him the momentum for gravity to outright take over. Well he is at/shorter than Ariel's height. Why is it a shock anyhow? Kain's 1.9m, Razil's 1.75m, average male is 1.78m, average female is 1.64m. FYI for Raziel to be 6', Kain would have to be 6'7''.. and that would put the average male height at 1.93m and females at 1.78m... Unless Nosgorth kills off anyone who isnt tall, Raziel wont be 6ft tall.


He's standing in a hunched over positing to support a weight. If he wasnt standing he'd be on the floor... Nope, its actually 60cm off the ground when its usually 90cm off the ground. Can check, his chins still as high as Mario's waist. Missed the point completely. They reused the same lift animation but its clearly shown that he was unable to push it over right before lifting it aka its not so easy for him. Lol twisting my words and adding to it? How can Raziel's upwards diagonal push make a downwards force on the obelisk for it to bounce? Pushed down =/= buckle under the weight. If Bowser still has bent limbs supporting the weight then his strength is involved in taking the hit. Lol urm worm out? ''its either not a sphere'' says the guy thats calling a spade a duck.


Have done so twice and there wasnt any notably negatively bias actions. You're just thinking they're bias.. iirc A few of the people mentioned have admitted to be fans of LoK so... Actually Bowser only stabs with his three longer claws. His movesets in SSB. says this too. Ah so its strike speed you meant. Equal because, like I said in the Off-Topics, when has Kain/Raziel done anything notable fast? Raziel's attack was at human speeds, Bowser attacks at human speeds too.

IIRC you settled for your own versions and compromises pr1983 And wow and the generosity there, making with his massive strength difference a whole 1.46x Raziels! *que 'finding a LoZ item' music* Listen one more time; Your calculations say Bowser is only doing 1.46x the damage. One persons calc says he's around a thousand times and two have calced your method to be wrong with . Dont mind me for agreeing with what makes sense. So people agree/disagree with the calc.... before they see the calc? ....Riiiiiiight. "Hey gais! This guy can lift up 10 tons cos of this calc *shows*" "Ahh youre right Rain, he can" And thus I have convinced that person. If they agree, they're convinced. Leo iirc from old posts Ive seen and from that thread seems like he knows what he's on about, and Neme is a fan of maths, just doesnt usually make them himself. But they still understand it. And if they understand it, like i said, they're not hollow in their points. Id give up that mimic and repeating thing unless you understand the meaning. "People who do/know maths including myself say youre wrong" Yeah, not appeal to audience which is more "I think youre wrong cos other people think you are'' Difference is the former is due to the listed people knowing about it or have checked it out themselves who share the same view I have. But Ive already said this so Im sure youll just repeat 'appeal to audience' again no matter what.. You call it appeal to audience, I call it a gathering of people who have found the same view.


That area is not enough to launch someone as A- no person can take a blade to the body and B- No person has the strength to launch someone back a real distance. If however a person has the durability not to get pierced then they would be pushed back. Just like if i were to take a needle and stab a diamond, the diamond would be knocked back. If Kain is durable enough no to get stabbed then he would take the full force in the launch and follow the 3rd law.



But thats how it works. Especially that the strike/lift relationship which usually stays equal. An average body type, as in not one made for specific things like boxing or weightlifting, like a person or martial artist will have both of these forces acting interdependently of each other. The strike of a person is pretty much projectile like, it doesnt use the same force, and gives roughly the same amount of force:

NormGai: Can lift 30kg@3m/s and have an average punch force of about 100-150J
MartialArtist: Can lift 70kg@3m/s and punch at 300J
Weightlifter: Can lift 300kg@3m/s and punch at 400J
Boxer: Can lift 90kg@3m/s and punch at 600J
*Above are only examples and not specific people or at specific levels, only to demonstrate the different body-types lift force to their strike force.

Most people are either the average/fighter-type or a mix of weightlifter and boxer which is pretty much the same as the average/fighter-type.. but bulkier. EG everyone in debates that I remember are these types whos striking force matches their lifting force. Only exceptions would be a character that has shown to have their lifting force<their striking force or the other way round. If not, which would be pretty rare in the fiction world, then both forces are separate but generate the same force. The other things like magic, supernatural and/or divinity are all augmenting their force/strength/damage/etc so it's be the same as if they didnt have some other force amping them.

Originally posted by BloodRain


According to your interesting find, its also a ball just a different shape to a sphere. Well maybe it looking like a sphere in the background is also a graphical thing, the mark is pretty obvious, its something you can see consistently throughout the scenes while we dont actually know what the balls dimentions really are without you trying to estimate it.

And according to you theres far more weight on the other side for it to pull, so it should fall over if you were correct, but it needs raziels push. What human are you comparing Kain to exactly? because some wear armoured suits, plus Raziel usually slouches, you cannot compare him to humans, hell even Kain often takes a low stance so I want to be clear.

As I said, shock absorbtion, using your theory he should not have moved at all or struggled so much with just the weight resting on him. If you realise 6.4k tons (the objects weight) makes Bowser struggle yet apprently you think his strength alone can stop a multiple of that x velocity (we cant use velocity omg! paradox!) then how does your logic stand up? because tbh I think its struggling alongside bowser. Raziel gives it the necessery energy to counterweight but apprently, too much energy since it bounced up the other side.

When so I can go and have a look out of interest? what threads? Not sure SSB is even canon to any games, although I would like to see him using his three longer claws ,all of them seem to be there to my eyes. Raziel can launch himself with agility far beyond a human and launches himself at Kain, I am not sure I have seen a human do this yet Bowser seems to just do clumsy punches at sub-standard speeds.

Originally posted by BloodRain
IIRC you settled for your own versions and compromises pr1983 And wow and the generosity there, making with his massive strength difference a whole 1.46x Raziels! *que 'finding a LoZ item' music* Listen one more time; Your calculations say Bowser is only doing 1.46x the damage. One persons calc says he's around a thousand times and two have calced your method to be wrong with . Dont mind me for agreeing with what makes sense. So people agree/disagree with the calc.... before they see the calc? ....Riiiiiiight. "Hey gais! This guy can lift up 10 tons cos of this calc *shows*" "Ahh youre right Rain, he can" And thus I have convinced that person. If they agree, they're convinced. Leo iirc from old posts Ive seen and from that thread seems like he knows what he's on about, and Neme is a fan of maths, just doesnt usually make them himself. But they still understand it. And if they understand it, like i said, they're not hollow in their points. Id give up that mimic and repeating thing unless you understand the meaning. "People who do/know maths including myself say youre wrong" Yeah, not appeal to audience which is more "I think youre wrong cos other people think you are'' Difference is the former is due to the listed people knowing about it or have checked it out themselves who share the same view I have. But Ive already said this so Im sure youll just repeat 'appeal to audience' again no matter what.. You call it appeal to audience, I call it a gathering of people who have found the same view.


That area is not enough to launch someone as A- no person can take a blade to the body and B- No person has the strength to launch someone back a real distance. If however a person has the durability not to get pierced then they would be pushed back. Just like if i were to take a needle and stab a diamond, the diamond would be knocked back. If Kain is durable enough no to get stabbed then he would take the full force in the launch and follow the 3rd law.



But thats how it works. Especially that the strike/lift relationship which usually stays equal. An average body type, as in not one made for specific things like boxing or weightlifting, like a person or martial artist will have both of these forces acting interdependently of each other. The strike of a person is pretty much projectile like, it doesnt use the same force, and gives roughly the same amount of force:

NormGai: Can lift 30kg@3m/s and have an average punch force of about 100-150J
MartialArtist: Can lift 70kg@3m/s and punch at 300J
Weightlifter: Can lift 300kg@3m/s and punch at 400J
Boxer: Can lift 90kg@3m/s and punch at 600J
*Above are only examples and not specific people or at specific levels, only to demonstrate the different body-types lift force to their strike force.

Most people are either the average/fighter-type or a mix of weightlifter and boxer which is pretty much the same as the average/fighter-type.. but bulkier. EG everyone in debates that I remember are these types whos striking force matches their lifting force. Only exceptions would be a character that has shown to have their lifting force<their striking force or the other way round. If not, which would be pretty rare in the fiction world, then both forces are separate but generate the same force. The other things like magic, supernatural and/or divinity are all augmenting their force/strength/damage/etc so it's be the same as if they didnt have some other force amping them.


And based on that "same view", most of whom these people are those you vouch for, not me you claim you have countered me, thats an appeal to audiance. It does not matter if you think they all have clever, unbias views and sun shines from their asses, they still have to all seperatly provide evidence, alongside your own (where is it?) that my calc is wrong, so far the entire formula we both use is being argued, not mine alone.

The rules are all the same, Kain being able to take the strike does not suddenly mean this force amplifies to cover his entire bodyweight. If I used a blunt knife and cannot cut say, a crusty loaf of bread or one of those really tough skinned oranges the PSI does not send it flying or me for that matter.

But again, your examples include real people. Their energy comes from muscle mass, weight etc. None of these games vs chracters do that, Kratos gets all his strength from some divine heritige, Dante devil powers, kain magic/supernatural forces. My point being, the whole view that their striking force includes their velocity max as well is flawed since most can strike faster than when they did the feat and some like Dante can apprently move in Mach speeds, you dont move mach speeds and not have increased force, Dantes, Kratos etc have equel force to someone far larger and heavier (probably someone whos muscles could crush buildings or something silly) but their speed is also superior and not necesserily part of their striking force e.g. Bay has magic for specific strengths and powers but her base speed is still damn high. Bay would have her force as seperate form her speed, therefore you cannot ignore her speed as if its simply part of the force.

If Kratos as I said used storoed energy solely to do his thousands of tons feats, then his strikes should be equivelent. So, extremely fast, not his typical normal speed.

Originally posted by Burning thought
According to your interesting find, its also a ball just a different shape to a sphere. Well maybe it looking like a sphere in the background is also a graphical thing, the mark is pretty obvious, its something you can see consistently throughout the scenes while we dont actually know what the balls dimentions really are without you trying to estimate it.
.......Was literally staring at that first sentence for minute... I honestly dont know how you can think that is not a sphere. A Ball is a normal ball unless stated otherwise. A cannon ball, which it is, is a sphere. In the background the cannon muzzle and the ball itself prove that the central diameter face of the ball is the same as that of the cannon. First where you thought it was, then that it was the angle, now that its not a sphere. Sure youre not trying to find a reason? No, the mark in the background is larger on the ball then when its in the foreground.


No. The majority of the weight if over the tipping point but because the blue side has a heavier base it would need some momentum in the position it was in for it to fall. If you tip a bottle like that with some water in the base it wont fall down as easy as if it was an equal shape. See, if you asked me when I first got it instead of agreeing I could have told you then. Was a few soldiers and people, and I think some artwork. Again any increases in height can be covered by putting them at 6' and not the actual 5'10'' average. Give me some credit man >: the comparison with Kain and Raziel was with them both standing tall and in any moment used was with them in a more upright position. I wont look at someone hunched over and call that their real height.. .____.


And if Bowers wasnt strong enough that force would have taken him down. Yeah it took him down a peg but the mere fact that he was still able to stand from it means his max strength was enough to stop it. You have to have the strength to still be standing. Wow nice misuse of paradoxes and velocity. Thats not how it works, especial that that kind of speed can not make it bounce. Raziel would have to give a downwards force to increase its downwards speed, if not it was gravity.


Im guessing a Link vs thread, chance it could be a Bowser one. Not canon in plot but canon in character as Nintendo was the one to made it. And how can you slash with a claw that doesnt face the same way? Makes zero sense. With a speed of....? Cos I havnt seen anything faster a persons. Of all that ive seen, clumsy punches isnt one of them. And his mobility speed is slower then a person most of the time but his attack speed is on par.


As in I calced it to be wrong, SP calced it to be wrong, GK is calcing it to be wrong and the others disagree with your methods and thus deem it wrong for that reason. So yeah, same views, and learn what that fallacy is. And they have all given reason in their own way. The psi can be argued, can upright say that the method is wrong... dun really care for psi ^^;


No, its not. Right, testing that out.

.................................

Ok.. both items got cut due to their insufficient durability to what I was giving. Gonna try it on this 1ft wooden... blocky.. thing and hit it with the bluntest knife I have, all the while hoping it doesnt snap off and fly at me. But I must test..

.................................

Right so Im not dead and it sent it back like it would if I hit it without, like the 3rd law said it would. Try it with a thin pen and anything that wont get pierced. Put decent force into it and it will be hit back by a decent amount. Or a pin and a rock.


Real people and real physics. And science says that both lift force and strike force is around equal. In the fiction world like i just said their other powers etc dont do the feats themself, they increase the persons power so that they can do so ie magical steroids, its just taking over what the muscles would do. Same rules apply unless otherwise stated in the verse.
Lets take Link to example this; He can throw a 1000 ton pillar at 50m/s, thats a strength of 2500000 tonnyenergy but if he put that force with lightning speed strikes then it would be that force combined with a velocity of 3,600,000,000. That would make his tonnyforce with dozens of zeros behind it.. But with such a high level of power in him how come he can only throw the pillar at 50m/s and not at a faster speed that he should of been able to? He should have launched that weight at mach speeds with the lightning speed force he can generate.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Impossible as Bowser does not have the proven power to harm Kain from the wraith blade like Raziel does.


Bowser is stronger than Raziel, though, so he does have the power. I wonder how that dark magic Bowser shrouds his claws in will work?



"Did not canonically try." As in, there is no evidence for durability. Impalement is an explicit weakness, so humans exploiting that weakness killed them. It's really simple.




Except that it is relevant, and establishes that the impalement weakness is commonly known. It's a stick with a pointy end, this by definition makes it a pole-arm. If you would like to argue that it is in fact a ranged weapon, please prevent evidence that differes from he previously established facts.



Kain did not recover from that injury on his own, seeing as he had a hole in his chest. Since he did not regenerate it in any way, this indicates he has lost his regeneration. I'm only saying Bowser can tear his heart out on the assumption that you want Kain to regenerate, and therefore have a heart.



See, the problem here is that you are arguing against both canon and cuscenes, and in doing so have tried to get rid of any basis for how fire is known to affect vampires. Cutscene evidence still trumps your baseless claim that fire does not do what it is shown to do. And the sad thing is that what you're doing doesn't even matter because Bowser's fire breath is stronger anyway.



I can (and have) give several suggestions as to why the wood burned quickly. Such as being weakened by the fire and collapsing. Or it was extremely dry, or treated with fast burning chemicals at some point. But really, it doesn't matter, because again Bowser's fire trumps it by being far more powerful. He'd annihilate these vampires. You're trying to apply physics to fictional fire, when Bowser can burn things underwater.




The ball has panned out, you just refuse to acknowledge it. Besides, calculating mass is about the only thing I'm actually able to do, not your force calculations. I'll wait for a consensus in that math thread first. Don't forget Bowser is > stone and brick, not to mention his durability is > lava and the heat of stars. By your logic this makes Bowser far more durable than Kain. Still, you not yet establish a relationship between fire resistance and durability, and you are again ignoring the vampire weakness to fire.



The Soul Reaver "has a possibility," too, unless you're going for a no limits fallacy. I never said it could steal anyone's soul, just that it did steal souls, and that Bowser is resistant or immune to it. Lots of things are resistant to it, this doesn't change Bowser's resistance/immunity. You still need to have a canon instance for your speed feat to work, so you should probably get on that.



However, he is not bothered by the wound by the time Raziel hits him, and Raziel's soul is still being channeled through him. You can't deny that. Raziel was weakened during it, too. Kain was pierced and had his heart ripped out, and this pretty much invalidates Soul Reaver 2 as a calculation base.



It's not relevant, though, aside from giving Kain some new memories. Nothing else in it directly affects the rest of the series. You are aware Kain absorbs the wraith blade, aren't you? I mean, it's only the most important thing in Defiance. It heals him both physically (the sword scar and the hole) as well spiritually (his corruption.) Don't be strawmanning me.



Still a scar, still disappears after Kain absorbed the wraith blade. Still in the same spot as the sword.

Because rather obviously, if it never happened, why are you using to say Kain can react to it? Why would the catch card need a canon instance, then? Its scripted function is to steal souls and it's scripted to not work on Bowser. Mario doesn't have to use it for its scripted function to be true, nor does he have to use it for Bowser to have a scripted resistance. You're really reaching if you think this is any different.



Again, you've not proven yours, either. Claiming that they are actually ranged weapons from a siege engine because...well you don't seem to actually have a reason aside from you don't like the evidence. So really, you have much less on this than I do, since I actually have historical precedent and you have absolutely nothing but a desperate last resort straw that you are unwilling to let go of.

Post your evidence or get out.



The catch card is not random, either, and it only fails again extremely powerful enemies with soul resistance, its scripted, too. Tje dimension reaver actually is random, since you can't choose the target, and it can fail to hit a certain enemy if that randomness decides to hit someone else. So really, trying to make a distinction between these is futile and I don't know why you continue.



No, you're making assumptions again. Humans are stated to be vulnerable, that does not mean anything humanoid is vulnerable. It's illogical to generalize that because it works on humans it works on everything. Humans are the only things stated vulnerable, if you want to claim otherwise, prove it.



You're assuming that human is baseline when it's not necessarily true. Dogs don't have human minds, so I see no reason they would be affected. In fact, the spell does not work on wolves in-game. Only humans are stated to be vulnerable, so there is no reason to assume a nonhuman would be vulnerable as well, you're just attempting a no limits fallacy on what it can target.



...why do you believe that Mario is at the DNA scale when there are visible bones that I already showed you?



The catch card is scripted, Bowser doesn't have to resist.



Rule 14? I expect you to prove this claim in any case, please go ahead and show that the speed of sound in Mario is slower.



The statement is blasts of "pure sound." Game mechanic slow it down to be dodge-able, but it is still canonically blasts of sound that can be outrun.



I didn't ignore the evidence; please read my posts. If you notice Anarcrothe has a laboratory devoted to these things; it's in that script you just linked. There's no evidence that it was instant at all.



What life? Unspecified, there are no humans around. He may as well be talking about plants. Also, it doesn't count as me forgetting something if you just ignore the explanation I gave. Nothing prevented them from putting hearts of darkness or health vials, and making Dark Eden just like Malek's fortress, which notably didn't have chained humans. But no, they just put humans there.



Hearts of darkness or health vials. Again, Malek didn't have people chained up, and it worked with the story. Dark Eden didn't even have that. The humans were a conscious descision over over means of recovery. You're again assuming it affects all life when nothing is really specified, hasty generalization much? Yes, nothing resists aside from Kain, Anarcrothe, Bane, Dejoule, Malek, Vorador, the enemies, and several chained up humans, not to mention the human corpses in the lab. Yes, nothing resists. /sarcasm.



There are still mutants inside the tower, so there's that. There's really not much of an indication it does anything to humans immediately. In fact, all this with the lab implies that humans aren't affected, but Anarcrothe is doing tests and turning them into monsters in his lab.



He never actually sees a human in the process of being turned by Dark Eden, and he sees humans inside Dark Eden. There are partially human creatures, but Kain mentions grafts and "craftsmanship," like something that would be made in a lab.



You should already know it happened before the game started.

Though the manual does say one day.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Bowser is stronger than Raziel, though, so he does have the power. I wonder how that dark magic Bowser shrouds his claws in will work?



"Did not canonically try." As in, there is no evidence for durability. Impalement is an explicit weakness, so humans exploiting that weakness killed them. It's really simple.




Except that it is relevant, and establishes that the impalement weakness is commonly known. It's a stick with a pointy end, this by definition makes it a pole-arm. If you would like to argue that it is in fact a ranged weapon, please prevent evidence that differes from he previously established facts.



Kain did not recover from that injury on his own, seeing as he had a hole in his chest. Since he did not regenerate it in any way, this indicates he has lost his regeneration. I'm only saying Bowser can tear his heart out on the assumption that you want Kain to regenerate, and therefore have a heart.



See, the problem here is that you are arguing against both canon and cuscenes, and in doing so have tried to get rid of any basis for how fire is known to affect vampires. Cutscene evidence still trumps your baseless claim that fire does not do what it is shown to do. And the sad thing is that what you're doing doesn't even matter because Bowser's fire breath is stronger anyway.



I can (and have) give several suggestions as to why the wood burned quickly. Such as being weakened by the fire and collapsing. Or it was extremely dry, or treated with fast burning chemicals at some point. But really, it doesn't matter, because again Bowser's fire trumps it by being far more powerful. He'd annihilate these vampires. You're trying to apply physics to fictional fire, when Bowser can burn things underwater.




The ball has panned out, you just refuse to acknowledge it. Besides, calculating mass is about the only thing I'm actually able to do, not your force calculations. I'll wait for a consensus in that math thread first. Don't forget Bowser is > stone and brick, not to mention his durability is > lava and the heat of stars. By your logic this makes Bowser far more durable than Kain. Still, you not yet establish a relationship between fire resistance and durability, and you are again ignoring the vampire weakness to fire.



The Soul Reaver "has a possibility," too, unless you're going for a no limits fallacy. I never said it could steal anyone's soul, just that it did steal souls, and that Bowser is resistant or immune to it. Lots of things are resistant to it, this doesn't change Bowser's resistance/immunity. You still need to have a canon instance for your speed feat to work, so you should probably get on that.



However, he is not bothered by the wound by the time Raziel hits him, and Raziel's soul is still being channeled through him. You can't deny that. Raziel was weakened during it, too. Kain was pierced and had his heart ripped out, and this pretty much invalidates Soul Reaver 2 as a calculation base.



It's not relevant, though, aside from giving Kain some new memories. Nothing else in it directly affects the rest of the series. You are aware Kain absorbs the wraith blade, aren't you? I mean, it's only the most important thing in Defiance. It heals him both physically (the sword scar and the hole) as well spiritually (his corruption.) Don't be strawmanning me.



Still a scar, still disappears after Kain absorbed the wraith blade. Still in the same spot as the sword.

Not about strength.

He said he need to variate his tactics and much about chucking them in water. impalement is a consistent damage that they cannot heal from, does not mean the humans gain Raziel strength to pierce them in the first place.

You dont have facts like you keep claiming though, just your claim that its "just a stick with a pointy end" it also has prongs at the back that couldbe aerodynamic, no spear i have seen has that.

Scar, but he just got up and continued without any less performance than before. How can you regenerate something thats not even there? your not making sense now....

No I am argueing against ignorance of a universe and poor interpretation on a game render, then countered it completly with my own canon. It does not matter if its stronger, not enough to beat Kain since Kain is more durable than trees.

A lot of fanciful claims that I can relate to vampires in some form, like heavy industry atmosphere=more flammable. Well I cannot argue with toonforce, although your the one claiming this is now working like real fire, somehow youve changed your tune.

what daft bias, well I can say the same about my math then but people just refuse to acknowledge it. Well the same consensus would be on all KMC math since were all using the same formula thats wrong. Well no, not by my logic, if something has higher melting point, its going to be harder to burn to death.

Doesnt say that, again your twisting words poorely, catch card says on it that it may not work against anything really. Its not canon that it did, therefore how could he have resistance to something that did not happen?

Not sure about "not bothered" and Raziels being channeled through the Reaver. Nah, SR2 does not include the wraith blade, and it has them both at max strength, the only thing Raziel has going for him here in comaprison to SR 2 Raziel is he slashed with the wraith blade and may have got a few power ups.

The whole Sarafan lord thing is better drawn out, if you compare it to Defiance it adds up as part of the canon. He does not do it on the fly, whenever he liks, Raziel uses a purified version somehow to do it.

Show me, "the same spot as the sword", I dont recall.

Originally posted by The Scenario


Because its scripted to happen that way, the catch card A; is not scripted to work every time, B; Is not scripted to hit bowser. How do you know? could just have been unlucky and not worked on him, although again this is boss gameplay mechanics.

I dont have to, which is the beaty of it because I am not making the claim, you are, I dont give a damn what killed or defeated the vampires, but you cant prove a damn either . You have some flawed belief that just because spears were once used eons ago that their automatically used now, despite flamethrowers and launching devices present. If anything, my conclusion is more likely, since humans cannot>tons of durability.

hypocrite, you dont even understand what your argueing for, I dont care what killed them, its your argument not mine.

The actual scene you showed when its picked up implies it is, you cant be "almost always works" and still be a scripted to wor weapon. I dont know why your reaching ad nauseum to try and compare a boss gameplay mechanic instance that you cant show anyway vs a scripted ability. As I said before, it would like me claiming the catchcard does not do what it says it can do, thats what your doing to the dimention reaver.

It does not state humans are the only thing, your making a hasty generalisation and some poor logic in general. Show me where it states "humans are only affected", I dont know how your getting that from "the human mind is a vulnerable thing".

Its not a no limits fallacy when I point out it works on things at human resistance and below.

i thought you said he was at DNA scale? The game says microscopic size, how can you see bones so solid if he was that small? How do you know their bones since I dont recall bones as smal las that on a microscrope or more important that shape.

He does if you want a durability feat, its not scripted to hit him.

What about Rule 14? it does not turn toonforce into reality for you unfortunatly, it simply means I cannot completly disregard the whole thing as nonsense so I am argueing it as per Rule 14 "portrayed in the universe", if sound is portrayed as that slow then fine.

Blasts of sound, its not a wave like real sound being vibrations in the air. I agree its a game mechanic that Mario can dodge it, but its nothing to do with speed, most if not all things are about as slow as that.

A Lab that was inside the fortress. not sure what this was countering, I never said anything about instant.

To cover the next two points, the script points out humans as mutated, second Kain also points out the whole thing is under the wizards control so if they want experiments or test subjects to hang around on chains, theres no reason why not. Good job, most if not all of them apart from Kain never stepped foot outside the Wizards tower, some of which are actually the wizards who made it.

Well I wonder how they got in there, they could not have possibly walked in like Kain, they had to have been transformed then and there.

He points out dark magic, not surgery reading comprehension ftw.

So its a useless comment to make, we dont know anything about it.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Not about strength.

Good, since we know Bowser can pierce him.



No, he said they regenerate, so he'd have to adjust his tactics. Vampires fear wounds that impale and inflame, mostly because they halt regeneration and kill them. Nothing is said about durability, and evidence shows that human strength can pierce them.



Except the Sarafan spears? Because they're pretty much identical to those used by the Sarafan. As melee weapons. Do you actually have anything to suggest that these are ranged weapons, or are just trying to cast doubt on things so you don' have to use evidence? If the latter, I'm sorry to say it doesn't work like that. Put up or shut up, and show me that siege weapon.



...what? Regeneration basically boils down to "replacing something that's not there anymore," you regenerate things that aren't there by the very definition of regeneration. Kain failed to regenerate his heart, as well as the skin around his heart, and the surface skin, which can be seen as the huge hole in his chest. He obviously can't regenerate any more, not sure why you would think otherwise given the evidence.



Kain is not proven to have any more fire resistance than trees, or other vampires for that matter. Since you apparently disregard the canon of your own side when it suits you. You have yet to actually address the cutscenes of two vampires burning to death, so good luck with that.



When did I claim it works like real fire? I'm going by what the canon of both games actually shows, which is that vampires are killed by fire, and Bowser's flame is far more powerful than anything Nosgothic vampires have ever been exposed. Given Kain's lack of fire resistance and stated weakness to fire, Bowser should have no trouble incinerating him.




Bias. Anyway, people are already questioning your math and telling you that it's wrong, so until that issue is solved I would not recommend using those numbers. As for the melting point, that's not what you're doing; you're trying to equate resistance to claws with resistance to fire, which is flawed reasoning. For instance, the metal tungsten has the highest melting point out of any non-alloy metal, but is weak enough to be cut and shaped with human strength. (Experiment: Go find a lightbulb and remove the filament, then try to bend it. You'll find that the tungsten in the filament is quite easy to bend or break, despite the high temperature lightbulbs generate.) Kain is just going to burst into flames regardless, since it's a vampire thing to do.



Actually, you're the one twisting words, since the actual quote is that it "almost always works." This outright states that failure is very rare, and this is demonstrated by it only rarely failing against the strongest enemies in the game. Experiment #2: Try turning your argument around- It's not canon that Kain used the dimension reaver, therefore how can he react to something that did not happen? Once you answer that question, apply the answer you got to the catch card. It'll be like a magic trick when the answers are the same.



Consider how Kain looks and acts during the scene. Once he starts channeling Raziel's soul through his body, he's far more concerned for Raziel and has stopped breathing heavily. He seemed to have recovered pretty quickly, didn't he? In Defiance, Raziel was weaker than normal while Kain seemed to be better, yet he was still defeated and pierced.



That may be, but as it is not part of the alpha timeline, not all of it is relevant. Him lacking a scar in the game doesn't affect the scar in the other games.

You really love latching on the smallest detail, don't you? Honestly, it is scripted to never fail on weaker enemies, rarely fail on strong ones, and always fail on, say, Bowser. Refer to Experiment #2 on this.



Not really. What you're actually doing is trying to submit a counter claim without evidence and force me disprove it. Needless to say, this is a red herring while you try to escape the original point. I have already established a historical precedent and use of the weapons, which is good enough to suit my purpose. If you would like to submit a counter claim, please present some actual evidence.



Hypocrite. It's your claim that there was a siege engine. I don' have to disprove this. You have to prove it. This is how real debates work.



I don't think you understand what's going on here. There are 2 separate items, the catch card, and the catch card SP (the one we are using here, just called 'catch card' for convenience.) The catch card sometimes fails, but is still scripted in how it works. The SP version is similar, but powered up to the point it almost never fails, except against stuff like Bowser. It is still scripted in how it works. What I think you are failing to grasp is that it only fails on things that are specifically resistant to it. If it doesn't work, the guy you used it on has too much soul resistance. As for the dimensional reaver, it seems you still do not understand my actual point. I'm not saying that it fails to do what it is supposed to do. My argument is that it has never canonically happened, so there is no evidence that Kain can react at superhuman speeds. Which is of course, your argument, only inverted.



You're making the mistake of assuming that it affects anything nonhuman as well, based on insufficient evidence. Where did you get "it can affect a turtle dragon with a computer for a brain" out of "the human mind is a vulnerable thing"? Really, it makes no logical sense to assume that a spell stated to affect only human minds would extend to non humans as well. Because they are not human, they not stated to be vulnerable. Also, you are using hasty generalization wrong.



Resistance is not a factor when the mind in question is completely alien to all laws of biology. In addition to being nonhuman, which means it is not vulnerable.



I said he was at the cellular scale at first, but it seems to vary occasionally. The design of that area is very skeletal, how are you not seeing bones there?



Exactly. It's scripted to not work on him, so that means he has soul resistance. That is, assuming you allow Kain to have his speed feat despite not canonically reacting to it.



Ha, nice try. But truly, sound still works fine in Mario, and there's no indication it moves slower than the speed of sound. You're still trying to disregard i as toonforce, when it's explicitly stated to be at the speed of sound. Again, I expect you to present evidence that the speed of sound is different in Mario, lest I remind you that all setting are assumed earthlike.



That just indicates projectiles are fast, nothing new here. You've never heard of a sonic weapon, though? They work through sound waves, too.



Dark Eden is not helpful to you if it takes days to turn a human. The lab establishes that there are human remains inside Dark Eden, and those remains have not been affected.



There are mutants inside the tower as well, and things inside resemble the exterior. This indicates that the effect is still inside the tower. However, since humans seem mostly unaffected and grafts are referenced, in addition to the labs, it indicates the muants are made later.



Not necessarily. Evidence indicates Anarcrothe was doing experiments to make them inside the labs, since humans seem mostly unaffected by Dark Eden.



Those two aren't mutually exclusive. Surgery with dark magic seems to be one of Anarcrothe's specialties, give his lab.



On the contrary, we know Bowser has the power to transform Kain into a brick.

Originally posted by The Scenario


Well we dont know, evidence suggests he should be able to pierce Kains first layer of skin.

although its true vampires cannot heal wounds that fill or burn away the areas they would usually have, this does not tkae away from the fact a guy with such strength and piercing power cannot cut them up, Raziel succeeds in impalement and such but his strength is so much more than a humans.

Show me a sarafan spear, then show me this spear, I doubt its identicle and the Sarafan are long dead, afterall their leaders are standing as vampire rulers at Kains side as his sons and have been for a thousand years. A siege weapon is one suggestion, a powerful launching device is another and we have a launching device as shown earlier, thats whats necessery to break tons of durability.

Not really, to renew or regenerate usually refers to tissues, not a full heart remake, I never claimed Kain can regenerate every organ in his body least of all the heart of darkness which would be a paradox anyway. Vampires generally cannot regen from deep attacks, the evidence is your interpretation, I dont see any hole, more a scar.

I have addressed it by pointing out wood burns in seconds as well, so the LoK fire is for some reason or another intensified beyond most standards.

Not really, all Bowser has done is burn down trees, Dumah can stand in an industrial furnace for a good few seconds without melting.

Your apprently using other numbers all from the same formula, otherwise how do you know bowser is stronger than Raz? Its not a vampire thing to do, it seems to be a general reaction to fire in LoK soul reaver.

Its not scripted that bowser or any enemy gets hit by catch card, it is scripted that Kains ability does what it shows.

Further evidence of Kains incredble durability. Kain seemed to be better? he just ended up knocked away, bleeding from the wraith blade, the fact it even made him bleed is pretty incredible.

Why? Theres no reason to suggest Kain since BO2 and Defiance has somehow gained a scar you claim he had before (which I thought true as well but BO2 is canon). So, either he was healed at some point before and this dark mark is an anomoly OR the scar has been retconned.

Originally posted by The Scenario


Show me, you cant prove this thesis.

I never asked you to prove my suggestions wrong, only for yours to be right and "sarafan used spears a thousand+ years ago!" does not give any facts or evidence to suggest whoever used these spears (organised non vampire worshiper humans of this era use flamethrowers and a known ranged weapon) beat tons of durability.

It was my suggestion, one of many more likely suggestions than SR era humans dropped their flamethrowers and crossbow things and took up spears belonging to 1000 year old warriors.

Your adding "specifically resistant" to cover a gameplay mechanic, theres no canon and the scripted effect is still only "almost", you would have to prove something happened to get the effect. It would be like me assuming Kain is immune to everything Raziel can dish out, all the elements and his strikes just because as a boss he does not take any visible damage.

its not my argument inverted, your claiming the scripted reflexes and general speed of an ability is null purely because I counter you by claiming a catchcard was not used on Bowser.

What insufficent evidence? its like me claiming the Star rod or bowsers powers have not worked on a Nosgoth vampire therefore you have no sufficent evidence that they will now. Absolute nonsense, its worked on something of human level resistance, therefore until you prove Bowser is>>>Human level resistance to a shock to the brain/mind or w/e you have no case.

Not really, your evidence that humans are the only ones vulnerable is based solely on the fact they were vulnerable to it, terrible reasoning, although your logic is off.

"the mind is alien" therefore immune! Kains technically alien and supernaturally opposite to laws of biology, therefore he cannot be harmed by Bowsers star rod or his powers? see what I did there?

Your percieving bones, but bone are not microscopic iirc, tbh I have not traveled around the body on a micro scale so I dont think either of us know how every cell would look from that standpoint.

Its not scripted to hit him at all though, theres nothing suggesting it ever happened, Kain does not have to actually do the dimentional port for its scripted statistics to be true. Again, your discarding an abilities power just because I disagree your ability even happened, if I disregarded the catch cards power like you did mine I would have to claim that it cannot do what it says it can do.

I dont think theres any such thing as a sonic blast.

Kain was percieving things changing constantly around him as I have shown before. The barrier warps things as it expands and touches them. Technically, human remains inside the wizards tower, different tbh.

Wrong, Kain points out how space and time may have been altered, differnt magic and effects, why you think wizards would create a dome that would affect themselves in the first place is anyones guess. Kain claimed it "appeared to be the work of dark magic", Dark magic was mentioned not surgery.

If it was done using dark magic then that can include the expanding barrier, why would you need a lab for magic when the expanding dome of reality warping is according to Kain creating "paraodies of life" and "mutations".

We dont know how, how long it takes, and based on Dark Eden it wont work. Also no limits fallacy, it works on a few mushrooms yet you claim it can work on who else? anyone? Kratos, Galactus, living tribunal, Thanos etc?

Your also a hypocrite, it works on mushrooms yet you dont use the same rules you want to use for Kains stun spell on the brick power, e.g. only mushrooms are possible targets.