What If...

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Stealth Moose
1. What if Qui-Gon had lived to mentor Anakin Skywalker?

How do you believe this would change events and why?

2. If Sidious had retained the Empire and not fallen to Skywalker's family drama, how would the subsequent events have turned out? Do you think the stability of Sidious' Empire better than the factions which followed it?

3. How would the Republic have weathered post-OT events had Sidious never come to power? Especially the Vong?

Lord Lucien
Truculent, get off Janus' account.

Stealth Moose
STFU, Canadian. You cannot defeat me.

Lord Lucien
Aw--ohh...

ares834
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Truculent, get off Janus' account.


laughing





I was thinking the same thing.

Nephthys
1. Qui-Gon is the one character in the prequels who I actually like. He's also the wisest guy there is and would undoubtably steer Annie in the right direction. He'd be less f a wierd brother that Anakin would compete with and blame for his shortcomings and more of a surrogate dad, who'd actually not **** shit up.

2. There'd always be rebellion against him, bt it'd be less chaotic than the craziness of the Post-Endor stuff.

3. A proper Jedi Order would beat back the Vong imo.

Korto Vos
If Qui-Gon lived, Anakin may not have fallen. In which case, he may never have brought balance to the Force. The imbalance would have caused the entire galaxy to collapse, and obliterate.

So, Darth Maul ended up saving the galaxy.

Lord Lucien
If Anakin really was the Chosen One, and had had proper tutelage under Jinn, wouldn't he have been in a more tenable position from which to confront the Sith?

Korto Vos
The inherent douchness in Anakin probably would have made him fall anyway.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by Korto Vos
The inherent douchness in Anakin probably would have made him fall anyway.

THis.

Zampanů
Originally posted by Korto Vos
The inherent douchness in Anakin probably would have made him fall anyway.
Disagree. From a narrative standpoint, the Fall is much more tragic if it could have been avoided. I believe that Jinn's emphasis on the moment, especially when compared with Kenobi's contentious past, would have benefited Skywalker considerably. (Have you read the books about Kenobi? He leaves the Jedi Order. He quits. And then he trains Darth Vader.)

Korto Vos
Just because a fall could have been avoided doesn't mean it's tragic. All falls can be avoided, for that matter. What makes it tragic is the character's intentions and personality beforehand that becomes twisted as a result of his/her actions and experiences.

The child who was optimistic, enthusiastic, and compassionate in TPM becomes unnecessarily cantakerous, fiery, unappreciative, creepy, and egotistic in AOTC. The movie fails to explain anything in the 10 years that caused Anakin to become a complete douche; Obi-Wan is shown to be a completely competent master. The movie fails to state that Anakin wouldn't have become like this under Jinn's tutelage.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by Korto Vos
Just because a fall could have been avoided doesn't mean it's tragic. All falls can be avoided, for that matter. What makes it tragic is the character's intentions and personality beforehand that becomes twisted as a result of his/her actions and experiences.

The child who was optimistic, enthusiastic, and compassionate in TPM becomes unnecessarily cantakerous, fiery, unappreciative, creepy, and egotistic in AOTC. The movie fails to explain anything in the 10 years that caused Anakin to become a complete douche; Obi-Wan is shown to be a completely competent master. The movie fails to state that Anakin wouldn't have become like this under Jinn's tutelage.

You could say that Anakin, having known a true parent and having been a slave earlier in life who has unnatural talent, chafes at Kenobi's more orthodox approach. It's noted consistently that Anakin loves Kenobi, but does not know what goes on in his mind because he's so close-minded. This is a far cry from his mother whom he loved and shared thoughts and emotions with, and it may be the catalyst for why Anakin harbors thoughts that everyone is out to oppress him and the Jedi Order is (rightfully) inept and uncaring.

It doesn't justify youngling killing, choking Padme, and generally being a douche, but it can make his fall seem to be more destined, I suppose, based on his unusual predicament. Most Jedi are given to the Order before they can talk, so he's naturally got some baggage.

Qui-Gon himself was impulsive, restless, and unorthodox. Anakin might have trusted him more and been loyal to the Jedi Master as opposed to the Order, I suspect. Would he still have fallen? I'm not sure. I believe that Qui-Gon, with his suspicious, truth-ferretting nature, would have been an impediment to Sidious and ultimately removed. The tragedy would likely have been that Sidious, in his dark genius, would have framed the Republic/Jedi in the incident, thus gaining Anakin's unwavering support.

Que RotS, but with Obi-Wan not being as well versed in Anakin's battle style. Obi-Wan loses, OT is obsolete.

Korto Vos
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
You could say that Anakin, having known a true parent and having been a slave earlier in life who has unnatural talent, chafes at Kenobi's more orthodox approach. It's noted consistently that Anakin loves Kenobi, but does not know what goes on in his mind because he's so close-minded. This is a far cry from his mother whom he loved and shared thoughts and emotions with, and it may be the catalyst for why Anakin harbors thoughts that everyone is out to oppress him and the Jedi Order is (rightfully) inept and uncaring.

It doesn't justify youngling killing, choking Padme, and generally being a douche, but it can make his fall seem to be more destined, I suppose, based on his unusual predicament. Most Jedi are given to the Order before they can talk, so he's naturally got some baggage.

Qui-Gon himself was impulsive, restless, and unorthodox. Anakin might have trusted him more and been loyal to the Jedi Master as opposed to the Order, I suspect. Would he still have fallen? I'm not sure. I believe that Qui-Gon, with his suspicious, truth-ferretting nature, would have been an impediment to Sidious and ultimately removed. The tragedy would likely have been that Sidious, in his dark genius, would have framed the Republic/Jedi in the incident, thus gaining Anakin's unwavering support.

Que RotS, but with Obi-Wan not being as well versed in Anakin's battle style. Obi-Wan loses, OT is obsolete.

I'm just contending Zamp's statement that a fall is more tragic if it could be avoided.

Seriously though (which my first two posts in this thread were not), I have to moderately agree with you on your assessment of Jinn.

My only problem is the wretched way that ends up demonstrated on screen. I remember how in the 2003 Clone Wars cartoon, Anakin actually says to Obi-Wan, "And you are no Qui-Gon Jinn!" If that line was mentioned in AOTC or something similar, then the audience can understand that Anakin may not be so angst-y if Jinn was alive. But instead we are left with a really cheerful kid, though sad about leaving his mom, who wanted to become a Jedi more than anything else ending up as a complete "WTF" ten years later.

And it seems more like Obi-Wan acts the way he does because he has to parent Anakin's immature behavior rather than Anakin being so emotionally unstable because he can't appreciate Kenobi's orthodox approach.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by Korto Vos
And it seems more like Obi-Wan acts the way he does because he has to parent Anakin's immature behavior rather than Anakin being so emotionally unstable because he can't appreciate Kenobi's orthodox approach.

Obi-Wan himself had doubts and insecurity (Cloak of Deception) but was very outspoken and while not arrogant, he was oft corrected by Qui-Gon Jinn. I think he attempted to emulate the Qui-Gon's father figure-ness, but at the same time temper it with Mace and Yoda's approaches, which was questionable. Mace was emotionally dead to anyone who wasn't Depa, iirc, and while he was a good man, he was not a sympathetic one. Yoda himself had glaring faults, and while he was no doubt a good teacher with his pseudo-Socratic method, he shaped the Order which rotted from within.

I can't fault Obi-Wan for being a bad teacher though. I've taught youths who simply could not, would not accept wisdom if it was dropped on their heads, and as a teenager I was the same way for a long time. Experience can make someone more mild and patient for learning, but that takes time. Anakin Skywalker was already ahead of people his age thanks to his vast powers and his being singled out by the current DLotS. Had he simply just been a Jedi in a boring era, I doubt he would have fallen at all, he just would have been an insufferable douche until he reached his epiphany.. Sidious was the ultimate catalyst.

Zampanů
I'm finding it very difficult to phrase this diplomatically so forgive me if I just lecture:

In literature, a tragic flaw is a character trait that ultimately leads to a character's downfall. Oftentimes this trait is one that would be positive in any other situation. The example through which I learned the concept is Chiuna Achebe's Things Fall Apart (intro to Lit ftw) where a strong, honorable family leader is utterly bewildered by a new world order (colonialism). The book talks about a lot of things, but the basic plot is that the main character would be a fantastic leader under the old ways, but that strength undermines his position after the Europeans show up.

Anakin is in a similar situation. He is strong-willed, loyal, and intensely uncomfortable with dishonesty. These are all traits that can be positive. However, his journey finds him in places where those are all liabilities. Thus, the basic criteria are fulfilled for a tragic flaw.

So, I believe that I have clarified my use of the term "tragic," with which you initially disagreed. It now falls to me to defend the idea that:
Qui Gon Jinn would have done a better job than Kenobi
The relationship between Jinn and Kenobi imparts some level of irony to Kenobi's failure
The Star Wars saga is more compelling because of and

I obviously cannot prove conclusively that Jinn would have done a better job. However, I would like to point out that the series of YA books chronicling Obi Wan Kenobi's life as a padawan paints him in much the same light as Anakin. An impulsive, reckless padawan ignores the rules of the Order to do what he feels is right, ultimately resulting in his expulsion/departure from the order. Yeah, Kenobi quits being a Jedi for a little while. Crazy, right? Well, Jinn is able to guide one padawan through the darkness.

Jinn's experience and wisdom should be sufficient to allow him to retain the authority position that Kenobi relinquished the second he began thinking of Anakin as "brother." The novelization of RotS calls Kenobi "the perfect Jedi" but he has one attachment: Anakin. Jinn would have maintained a more traditional Master/Apprentice bond, simply because of the age gap.

So, in my mind at least, there are a few reasons to believe that Jinn was capable of doing a better job than Kenobi. Now to the ironic part: Kenobi was at least partially formed by Jinn's teaching. That is to say, parts of his personality and mentality were comprised of what he learned from Jinn. It is a bit ironic that where Jinn succeeded (specifically, keeping his padawan in the Jedi Order) Kenobi failed spectacularly. Of all the skills to pick up, that seems like one of the most important. "Hey this is the Chosen One. Make sure he's a Jedi. don't let him quit."

Last letter in the list:
Those are the reasons I think (a) and (b). In my mind, the tragic loss of Qui Gon Jinn is the only plotworthy element in TPM. Thus: (c).


Edit: didn't proofread this; it took forever to write. Forgive me if it is incoherent.

Turr_Phennir
no

Nephthys

Zampanů
not to be a juicebag, but no one asked you Gideon you inbred redneck teabagger

Turr_Phennir

Stealth Moose

Turr_Phennir
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Also, I agreed with your post.

As if Zamp's credibility wasn't flimsy enough (he is a political liberal), you had to go and personally endorse him?

Why not publicly fondle him and get it over with? hmph

Korto Vos

Nephthys
Oh man, now I agree with Vos. Good points, well made.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by Korto Vos
However, in the movies, Anakin's admirable qualities failed to appear. His emotional personality and flaws dominated his redeemable traits to the extent he comes off as completely unsympathetic to the audience.

I find myself agreeing with this, only because AotC Anakin was generally an unlikable character. His petulant nature throughout drove a wedge between him and others around him, and had it been better balanced with compassion and understanding, he would have been far more likable.



Being obstinate and being strong-willed are not mutually exclusive though. To have survived and thrived in his younger life as a slave required willpower to avoid giving up or being crushed. He retained that defiant strength throughout his youth and into adulthood. Just because he's head strong and self centered doesn't mean he's weak-willed. The power to force his body to crawl up that sand while burning and in mortal danger on Mustafar speaks for itself.



Anakin's sense of loyalty is made difficult to detect because of his self-centered moral code, but it's still present. In RotS, he refuses to leave Obi-Wan behind, showing fierce loyalty in the face of Palpatine's suggestion to bring his master back from certain death. He is loyal to Padme in the sense that he doesn't cheat on her, he clings to her. True, his version of love is horribly flawed, but it is arguably loyal nonetheless. His love for his mother was the strongest and most enduring.

This strong conviction, had it been in a man less selfish, would have been an honorable trait.



This does align with Anakin's troublesome moral code though. He views everything in the galaxy as how it pertains to him and ultimately his need for Palpatine's cure transcends whatever subjective beliefs he has about political deception.

That being said, Anakin's lack of falsehoods is not because it's immoral, but because he doesn't see the need for obfuscation and manipulation. This is a guy who routinely attacks everything head-on.



Obi-Wan's teachings seem very logical, and had Anakin been raised as a Jedi and not as a slave with his mother, he likely would have succeeded. But Obi-Wan's failure to teach Anakin is reflective of the failure of the Order as a whole to adapt to students who are not raised into obedience.



Qui-Gon certainly does seem to be more likely to identify with and guide Anakin. He's both wise and perceptive, and he maintains the mentor-student distance appropriately. It's sometimes best to match the student with a teacher closer to their learning style. Mace would be too strict and unyielding. Yoda would be too cryptic, always stressing vague unknowns and patience. Obi-Wan, well... we saw what happened there. He could not control Anakin. Qui-Gon, of the Jedi we know, would have had the best chance.

But I still think Palpatine/Sidious played a bigger part in his eventual fall, and regardless of teachers, the Sith were too well entrenched and too powerful to be denied.

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