The Sentry vs Superman

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ozz81
1.Sentry vs Regular or Classic Superman

2.Sentry vs Superman 1 Million

3.Sentry vs Superman Prime

Who wins in the above both at their best on separate battles, with regards to speed, powers,strength, durabilty , damage soak etc..

Enzeru
Superman has better strenght, speed, durability and probably also damage soak feats.

If you judge it by the overall feats in comics then Superman stomps without having any real problems. If you let him fight against a stable Sentry, who would be in the full control over his powers, then it would be a different story, since he has the far superior powerset.

If you're not that narrow-minded (sorry about that one), then Sentry has the edge in strenght and speed, if he is really at his best.

Sentry VS Regular Superman

Sentry would simply be too much for Superman, since he has the needed power set to bring him down. That includes super strenght, super speed and durability, aswell other specials like teleportation, telepathy, matter manipulation, regeneration, immortality and so on, and so on.



Sentry VS Classic Superman

Classic Superman would basically be Silver Age Superman, since I don't think you included DCnU Superman into this battle.
I remember a quote to this one:

Odin Force Thor: "HAVE A GODBLAST AT THEE, CAPED ONE!"
Silver Age Superman: "That was a powerful attack, friend, although I've developed Anti-Godblast-beams."
Odin Force Thor: "By Odin!"



Sentry VS Superman 1 Million

If this is Superman-Prime One Million then Sentry would clearly lose, since that guy was basically up there in the league of actual comic book gods and so on.

If it's Kal Kent, then uhm ... I think Sentry would still lose, but he would have a fighting chance if he would mainly concentrate on matter manipulation, but that's probably just the fanboy speaking out of me now, since Kal Kent is one of the uber-powerful DC characters.



Sentry VS Superman-Prime

I would actually give this one to the Sentry. Prime always had a weird mind, so maybe exploiting it via empathy and overloading Prime with all the horrors he had to deal with, could turn him into a catatonic state, or simply let him go on a rampage and destroy even more.

Besides that Sentry could try to drain him and in the process Sentry would become stronger, because of the photokinesis in his body.
I feel that matter manipulation would be the way to go in this fight aswell.

And now I expect Rajesh to troll me somehow.

Nihilist
Sentry doesnt win 1 fight.

bbrem123
sentry alone no void at all would beat regular supes thats it...this is not counting siege because sentry seemed to have MM at that point.

carver9
Sentry vs normal Supes...Sentry wins. The rest of the battles, Sentry doesnt do so well.

zeel
sentry stands a chance against supes but it dosent mean he will win.

Sin I AM
lol at sentry winning any fight here


clark stomps

JakeTheBank
1.) Superman
2.) Superman 1 Million
3.) Superman Prime

TheHulk
Sentry wins only the first fight... sad

BOW BEFORE THE POWER OF A MILLION EXPLODING SUNS mad

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by TheHulk
Sentry wins only the first fight... sad

BOW BEFORE THE POWER OF A MILLION EXPLODING SUNS mad

Doesn't the Sun power Superman stick out tongue

The Sorrow
Originally posted by ozz81
1.Sentry vs Regular or Classic Superman

2.Sentry vs Superman 1 Million

3.Sentry vs Superman Prime

Who wins in the above both at their best on separate battles, with regards to speed, powers,strength, durabilty , damage soak etc..
1. Sentry
2. Superman
3. Superman

TheHulk
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Doesn't the Sun power Superman stick out tongue i don't this counts

abhilegend
Originally posted by Enzeru
Superman has better strenght, speed, durability and probably also damage soak feats.

If you judge it by the overall feats in comics then Superman stomps without having any real problems. If you let him fight against a stable Sentry, who would be in the full control over his powers, then it would be a different story, since he has the far superior powerset.

If you're not that narrow-minded (sorry about that one), then Sentry has the edge in strenght and speed, if he is really at his best.

Sentry VS Regular Superman

Sentry would simply be too much for Superman, since he has the needed power set to bring him down. That includes super strenght, super speed and durability, aswell other specials like teleportation, telepathy, matter manipulation, regeneration, immortality and so on, and so on.


You basically described this guy
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/70/EradicatorSSF.jpg/180px-EradicatorSSF.jpg

Guess what, he has far better feats of everything sentry has got and then some more and even then he has lost to superman.

Powersets doesn't mean much, if that's the case then Green lanterns would be unbeatable, any character with open powerset would be unbeatable. You want to tell me that sentry wins, no problem. Show me the feats where sentry defeated any one of big guys using those. Your trumpet of "stable sentry" doesn't mean we would give him the win solely on that. Everyone here has seen what sentry could do but you are screaming at the top of your lungs that only Siege and his mini and whenever he has some good showings count and all his low showings doesn't count because he was "unstable". If you want to go to that route, superman has survived two times sun eaters collapsing on himself, he has survived COIE anti monitor's attacks, he has oneshotted a PC daxamite, has one punched nearly killed lobo, survived getting crushed by a quantum zealot who were throwing planets around, has absorbed a blast capable of destroying half a galaxy, lifted infinite weight twice and I can remove all of his low showings because he was "holding back" and unlike your theory there are actual story arcs on this characteristics of superman. Guess what, superman wipes the floor with sentry's face then.




Prime is a PC kryptonian, he doesn't absorb solar energy. He just awakens his powers in presence of yellow sun. Who's rajesh?

Enzeru
Originally posted by abhilegend
Show me the feats where sentry defeated any one of big guys using those. Your trumpet of "stable sentry" doesn't mean we would give him the win solely on that. Everyone here has seen what sentry could do but you are screaming at the top of your lungs that only Siege and his mini and whenever he has some good showings count and all his low showings doesn't count because he was "unstable".

I don't like the way you try to debate. You are boring as hell and you're often ignoring facts.

This is not about which characters has more and better feats, because if we judge by that, then Spider-Man would be stronger and overall more powerful then Venom and Carnage, because he has more feats and even far more important, he has better feats then them, but in the end he is still not more powerful then them, because they overpower him physically and he has to outsmart them.

And the most pesky thing is that you're actually lowballing Sentry in every one of your responses, because of his low showings, which are actually nearly all linkable to his mental issues, since that's the main-idea behind the character. If he struggels, then he is weaker. It's simple as that.
I made the example multiple times and I'm going to make it again: Superman with kryptonite in his body won't be as effective as when he is in his prime. Sentry's mind is his only weakness, and if he has doubts and is in a bad condition, then his powerlevel is low. It's that simple.

But even an unstable Sentry was able to stalemate WW Hulk and have the upper hand in the battle and it was also an unstable Sentry who stalemated the Collective, who casually overpowered Binary, someone with cosmic powers, who is able to destroy a planet by releasing power.
Releasing power is something the Sentry can do and if he is in a better condition, he is too destroying worlds, while holding back.

It may be ABC logic, but it still applies in my opinion -> An unstable Sentry stalemates one of the most powerful versions of the Hulk - the Hulk, who has always been a good match for Thor.
A Sentry in a good condition defeats the Void on a regular basis - the Void, who makes everyone else his puppies.
Such a stable Sentry would destroy Thor, even though Thor has far more and far better feats. If you want to judge the fight by feats, then Sentry will lose in the most conditions, since 5 years of his 10 years of existance, he was treated like a plot-device by the writers.

And there wouldn't even be one single point in bringing the Sentry into a fight against the Godlike heroes on the DC earth, who are bending the laws of physics since 1941 (YES, I LOOK AT YOU FLASH, WITH YOUR SO CALLED "SPEED FORCE"!).
That's not the way Marvel works. If you judge the fights by that, then Superman would also probably defeat Silver Surfer in your opinion, even though Silver Surfer is clearly the more powerful being with a greater dispossal of powers and the same applies for the Sentry, even though he was never allowed to show that amount of power, besides the many instances, where he defeated the Void, who stood above powerhouses.

You can continue downgrading him, because of his low showings and try to put him into the weakling corner, it's totally up to you, but in fights, we use the most current characters at their peak.
And what's the point in using an unstable Sentry, who resurrected his wife by an accident, while a stable Sentry knew exactly what he was capable of and healed when he wanted?
And what would be the point in using the regular Flash, if both of his legs were broken? He would probably lose many of the fights.
Mental illness, which wears Sentry down, a Kryptonite bullet in Superman's body which makes him weaker, or broken legs which slow down the Flash. It's all the same thing.

If you have any problems with that, then just leave it be. It's my way to look at the characters. I don't judge them only by the feats and ignore moments, where they faced each other, since that already states their respective powerlevels, when they're facing each other.
I'm not biased towards Sentry, I would argue for every character the same way, if I really feel that way, while I can't say the exact same thing for you, if I think about the "Sentry VS Annihilators" thread, where you came up with Green Lantern Kyle in your reponse. I didn't even bother to read the Kyle-parts, since I didn't even care at all about DC characters in that thread, since there are huge differences between the Marvel and the DC writing. Marvel is far more realistic and not going over the top 10 times per month.

truthholder
nutnut

Mr.Mxyzptlk
Originally posted by Enzeru

This is not about which characters has more and better feats, because if we judge by that, then Spider-Man would be stronger and overall more powerful then Venom and Carnage, because he has more feats and even far more important, he has better feats then them, but in the end he is still not more powerful then them, because they overpower him physically and he has to outsmart them.

For the record....that's actually what 90% of debating anything in this subforum is. Feats are what decide a winner in the end, not Writer intent or publicity claims or handbooks or bios.

DARTH POWER
Sentry wins...... Nothing

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Mr.Mxyzptlk
For the record....that's actually what 90% of debating anything in this subforum is. Feats are what decide a winner in the end, not Writer intent or publicity claims or handbooks or bios.

Its Feats + How characters do against each other.. Have to use both..

For instance Doomsday doesnt have lifting feats, but we know how powerful he is due to how he compares to Supes when put against him.

Whilst Supes has the feats to know he planetary scale. The all Doomsday needs to do is overpower a non-holding back Supes for us to know he is also Planetary scale.

Mr.Mxyzptlk
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Its Feats + How characters do against each other.. Have to use both..

For instance Doomsday doesnt have lifting feats, but we know how powerful he is due to how he compares to Supes when put against him.

Whilst Supes has the feats to know he planetary scale. The all Doomsday needs to do is overpower a non-holding back Supes for us to know he is also Planetary scale.

Overpower consistently mind you.

I guess it's more correct to say Feats+How characters measure up to one another+Context and legitimacy of the feats is what is properly used.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Enzeru
I don't like the way you try to debate. You are boring as hell and you're often ignoring facts.

This is not about which characters has more and better feats, because if we judge by that, then Spider-Man would be stronger and overall more powerful then Venom and Carnage, because he has more feats and even far more important, he has better feats then them, but in the end he is still not more powerful then them, because they overpower him physically and he has to outsmart them.

And the most pesky thing is that you're actually lowballing Sentry in every one of your responses, because of his low showings, which are actually nearly all linkable to his mental issues, since that's the main-idea behind the character. If he struggels, then he is weaker. It's simple as that.
I made the example multiple times and I'm going to make it again: Superman with kryptonite in his body won't be as effective as when he is in his prime. Sentry's mind is his only weakness, and if he has doubts and is in a bad condition, then his powerlevel is low. It's that simple.

But even an unstable Sentry was able to stalemate WW Hulk and have the upper hand in the battle and it was also an unstable Sentry who stalemated the Collective, who casually overpowered Binary, someone with cosmic powers, who is able to destroy a planet by releasing power.
Releasing power is something the Sentry can do and if he is in a better condition, he is too destroying worlds, while holding back.

It may be ABC logic, but it still applies in my opinion -> An unstable Sentry stalemates one of the most powerful versions of the Hulk - the Hulk, who has always been a good match for Thor.
A Sentry in a good condition defeats the Void on a regular basis - the Void, who makes everyone else his puppies.
Such a stable Sentry would destroy Thor, even though Thor has far more and far better feats. If you want to judge the fight by feats, then Sentry will lose in the most conditions, since 5 years of his 10 years of existance, he was treated like a plot-device by the writers.

And there wouldn't even be one single point in bringing the Sentry into a fight against the Godlike heroes on the DC earth, who are bending the laws of physics since 1941 (YES, I LOOK AT YOU FLASH, WITH YOUR SO CALLED "SPEED FORCE"!).
That's not the way Marvel works. If you judge the fights by that, then Superman would also probably defeat Silver Surfer in your opinion, even though Silver Surfer is clearly the more powerful being with a greater dispossal of powers and the same applies for the Sentry, even though he was never allowed to show that amount of power, besides the many instances, where he defeated the Void, who stood above powerhouses.

You can continue downgrading him, because of his low showings and try to put him into the weakling corner, it's totally up to you, but in fights, we use the most current characters at their peak.
And what's the point in using an unstable Sentry, who resurrected his wife by an accident, while a stable Sentry knew exactly what he was capable of and healed when he wanted?
And what would be the point in using the regular Flash, if both of his legs were broken? He would probably lose many of the fights.
Mental illness, which wears Sentry down, a Kryptonite bullet in Superman's body which makes him weaker, or broken legs which slow down the Flash. It's all the same thing.

If you have any problems with that, then just leave it be. It's my way to look at the characters. I don't judge them only by the feats and ignore moments, where they faced each other, since that already states their respective powerlevels, when they're facing each other.
I'm not biased towards Sentry, I would argue for every character the same way, if I really feel that way, while I can't say the exact same thing for you, if I think about the "Sentry VS Annihilators" thread, where you came up with Green Lantern Kyle in your reponse. I didn't even bother to read the Kyle-parts, since I didn't even care at all about DC characters in that thread, since there are huge differences between the Marvel and the DC writing. Marvel is far more realistic and not going over the top 10 times per month.
So you don't read or care about DC characters yet you are arguing against them, figures. Tell me what's realistic about marvel, that a human with an extra gene can create a universe or a normal human being can become a creature of infinite strength by a nuclear bomb or a guy can have power of a million exploding suns by drinking a serum. I already told you the example of kyle/obilivion, surfer has owned hulk in every fight they had even taking his angry punches casually while thor has always got better of surfer while he always struggled with hulk. ABC logic doesn't hold true in most cases. So he doesn't have any feat on superman's level but we give him win, why? He has some energy manipulation so we forget superman's feats in that area and believe that sentry would suck solar energy from him. Same with other things like matter manipulation, super strength etc. So basically if we allow all of sentry's high end feats while discard all of his low end feats and discard superman's high end feats and use only low end feats, that's how we should judge superman or thor or anyone else vs sentry. WOW.

Enzeru
Originally posted by abhilegend
So you don't read or care about DC characters yet you are arguing against them, figures.

I never said that I don't read about DC characters. I'm currently following many of the DCnU on-goings and I was reading DC comics in the past, I just prefer Marvel more, because of the stories and the events.

And I never said that I don't care about DC characters. I just said, that I didn't care about you talking about Kyle in a thread without any DC characters at all. It was mainly about Sentry and the Annihilators.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Tell me what's realistic about marvel, that a human with an extra gene can create a universe or a normal human being can become a creature of infinite strength by a nuclear bomb or a guy can have power of a million exploding suns by drinking a serum.

Reality warping powers are not the speed force. You know that.
Having reality warping as a power set is something different then trying to explain something with logic, yet ignoric physics, basically something the Flash is doing on a regular basis.

The idea behind the Hulk isn't that terrible. A person with a lot of adrenaline, becomes physically stronger, that's a fact, since the mind sets out and more strenght gets released.
Of course being actually the Hulk is unbelievable, mainly also because of the physics, but there are other DC characters who top that by a large margin.

Sentry is awesome and through the molecular manipulation it's still slightly more believable then being an alien, who has heat vision and x-ray vision, which can't see through one specific kind of metal, but through everything else.

Originally posted by abhilegend
surfer has owned hulk in every fight they had even taking his angry punches casually while thor has always got better of surfer while he always struggled with hulk.

Hulk is not the Silver Surfer and Hulk is also not the Sentry. A stable Sentry also took Hulk's hits without even bothering and overpowered him mentally (not really something what happened to the Hulk that often).

A Sentry in control of his powers would overpower Thor aswell. It has been portrayed that way, unfortunately two of their meetings were in What If's (while many people want to see the second What If as canon, because Uatu was there, talking to the Watcher of the different reality and hinted out that something like that was very, very possible in his own reality aswell).

Their canon meeting was during the Siege and there Thor didn't really stand a chance.
There is a longer debate about that in the "Sentry VS Annihilators" thread.

Based by the overall feats, the Sentry wouldn't even be able to hit the Silver Surfer once, but based by the ABC logic around the Sentry and his showings, he would be more then a match for the Surfer, if he was already vastly more powerful then Thor.

Originally posted by abhilegend
ABC logic doesn't hold true in most cases.

That's true but in this case it does.

Originally posted by abhilegend
So he doesn't have any feat on superman's level but we give him win, why? He has some energy manipulation so we forget superman's feats in that area and believe that sentry would suck solar energy from him. Same with other things like matter manipulation, super strength etc.

Thor would offer Superman a damn good run for his money, while Sentry is supposed to be the superior character, and he was, even though he lacks feats.

Let me tell you this, if you read until this point and it will also spare you further reading:
If you want me to state the outcome by the amount of high end feats and so on, then I will not deny that Superman, Thor and Silver Surfer would beat the Sentry, but if you're not narrow-minded and open for an implied power level, which has also been showcased by the Sentry in the past by beating the Void multiple times, when being stable, then you too should understand that he was written to be a superior character at the beginning. That changed when Bendis took over, but it also changed when Bendis was done with the Sentry, Jenkins wrote the final issue and retconned the character back again (actually from a retcon which never happened, since Sentry always had his powerlevel. No one ever took away his powers and no one ever gave him new extra powers - when he came back from the dead, it was because that was the first time where he actually died, since his durability wasn't that high, because of his illness).

Originally posted by abhilegend
So basically if we allow all of sentry's high end feats while discard all of his low end feats and discard superman's high end feats and use only low end feats, that's how we should judge superman or thor or anyone else vs sentry. WOW.

Sentry does not have low feats, why don't you understand that? What is a low feat for you? The instance where he got outskilled by Hercules?
Sentry wasn't even trying and even if so, Hercules has centuries of fighting experience. He outskilled Thor and forced him to cheat to get out of Hercules grip and Hercules out also outskill Superman. Yet in the same fight you could say, that Sentry was doing quite good, when he punched Hercules and used one fist, while Hercules had to support his arm with his other hand to hold the Sentry back. Then he kicked him into the balls and sank a ship, to distract Sentry, who then flew with the sinking ship up.

What other instances? The one where he got stopped by WW Hulk, even though he had the upper hand and that was clearly showcased during the entire fight? Yeah...
Or where he stalemated the Collective?
I know I already said that so many times, but these low showings where were he was in a weak state. It's not a low showing, if the writers use his weakness to give the enemies a fighting chance.

What other instances? Where Human Torch overloaded him and forced the Sentry to fly away? That was actually huge PIS, a huge plot device to remove the Sentry as fast as possible from the battlefield.
What's the point anyways in having him there, since he would have been able to solo them all in few seconds?
Judging by his powerset he should have never been force to flee, just because of a little bit fire.

Mr.Mxyzptlk
One of the Sentry's definitive low showings, at least to me, is when he failed to lift that Helicarrier properly.

If he really was worth all that hype then he shouldn't have struggled with something that any other Superman pastiche would have lifted with ease.

Or any other Class 100 brick.

Nietzschean
Originally posted by Mr.Mxyzptlk
One of the Sentry's definitive low showings, at least to me, is when he failed to lift that Helicarrier properly.

If he really was worth all that hype then he shouldn't have struggled with something that any other Superman pastiche would have lifted with ease.

Or any other Class 100 brick. I dont judge him solely on that since DC has had similar showing with their herald lvl beings.. from MM grunting to hold up a collapsing wall, superman admitting he isnt strong enough to break into an underground vault due to how thick the metal is..


Even if we give Sentry equal lvl strength to his opponent it is his CIS, lack of feats when compared to guys like Superman that causes him to lose..

Mr.Mxyzptlk
Originally posted by Nietzschean
I dont judge him solely on that since DC has had similar showing with their herald lvl beings.. from MM grunting to hold up a collapsing wall, superman admitting he isnt strong enough to break into an underground vault due to how thick the metal is..


Even if we give Sentry equal lvl strength to his opponent it is his CIS, lack of feats when compared to guys like Superman that causes him to lose..

I was replying to Enzeru saying Sentry had no low showings.

That to me was a low showing.

DarkSaint85
Hah, I'm sorry Enzeru, I actually do like reading your posts...until you started saying one of the comic book universes was more believable than the other. Not true. NEither of them are believeable, and they are just as bad as each other....

Enzeru
Originally posted by Mr.Mxyzptlk
One of the Sentry's definitive low showings, at least to me, is when he failed to lift that Helicarrier properly.
If he really was worth all that hype then he shouldn't have struggled with something that any other Superman pastiche would have lifted with ease.
Or any other Class 100 brick.

That instance is one of the few which is totally above my understanding. I could never understand what that was about.
Sentry basically had problems with lifting it and started going down. Okay, it weights over thousands and thousands of tons, but still - he should be above it, besides the "his strenght and speed scale with his mental stability" ... BUT THEN.
Then Ms. Marvel and Wonder Man came along and easily helped him out? It's clear that their combined efforts lifted the Helicarrier, but still - what was Ms. Marvel doing there, who is basically way too weak for everything, since she asked the Sentry over 5 times for various instances where strenght was needed and she wasn't able to do it by herself.

It confused me so much.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Hah, I'm sorry Enzeru, I actually do like reading your posts...until you started saying one of the comic book universes was more believable than the other. Not true. NEither of them are believeable, and they are just as bad as each other....

For me Marvel was more believable because they didn't allow their characters to vibrate through solid objects via speed, but then "Speed" came along and pulled that trick off. That was pesky.

Besides that, my main point is actually that Marvel has the more believable stories, or had with the entire Civil War stuff and so on. Fear Itself ruined everything and I don't expect it to get better, to be honest.
Marvel is also not what it used to be and it's a pity.

But also besides that there are not many Marvel characters who come near the ridiculousness of the Flash character.

Nietzschean
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Hah, I'm sorry Enzeru, I actually do like reading your posts...until you started saying one of the comic book universes was more believable than the other. Not true. NEither of them are believeable, and they are just as bad as each other.... obviously neither reality is believable/realistic but Marvel for decades has tried to explain things in their universe with its own internal logic.

there have bn instances where it has bn explained why regardless of how herald level strength you have why you cannot lift an X amount of weight without it collapsing in on itself. Marvel has even given explanations with why the earth cant be moved without causing world wide catastrophic effects.

DC rarely adheres to their own internal logic which shifts for story purposes at anyone time depending on the writer.

Of course Marvel's logic has pretty much bn thrown out the window in the last decade.. so i guess they are pretty even now. sad

DarkSaint85
Eh, they're both as bad as each other.....and both as good as each other.

Like Superman's powers. Believeable, as he is an alien.

Gamma bomb giving me superpowers? Not so much. Yes, there is an internally consistent explanation in Marvel (its all to do with radiation!!!!!) but that only makes it consistently wrong.

Like I'm supposed to feel empathy/sorry for Peter Parker. He has a stable, loving family, a steady job (poorly paid, but a job), a little black book that is the envy of everyone else (including a supermodel)...

Yeah, I feel sorry for him, he has it so hard. Lol.

Btw, most of that was tongue in cheek, so Spidey fans, please don't flame me with messages about Uncle Ben, Gwen etc.

Enzeru
^ Superboy was pushing away the Earth with his breath, without actually causing devastating tornados, leveling continents and so on o_O

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Enzeru
^ Superboy was pushing away the Earth with his breath, without actually causing devastating tornados, leveling continents and so on o_O

And the Hulk....thunderclapped a dimension. And Lobo...compressed a city with his hands into a cube the size of a sugarcube. And Hercules...held up the entire sky. And Superman....lifted a book that weighed infinity. And....well, you get the picture.

They're all equal.

Enzeru
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
They're all equal.

Power Girl's breasts are not hanging. That's far more beyond all physics than Marvel stuff will ever be!

PS: Booyakasha!

abhilegend
Ok enzeru according to you sentry has no low showings. So tell me are we going to use superman's high end showings too because in every "low showing" he was holding back or he placed mental blocks on himself after he killed pocket dimension zod. It was specificaly shown in "no limits" arc around our worlds at war. If you want to go implied power route Book of oa had a prophecy about him, he is a direct descendent of Kryptonian sun god rao, "everything comes from superman", the unstoppable story and it was directly shown in trinity that superman CAN'T lose, brainiac 13 and imperiex said that he was a cosmic being who limits himself with human emotions, in countdown the full kryptonian powerset was reavaled and it was said that superman only use 1% of his powers because of mental blocks IIRC, etc.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Enzeru
Power Girl's breasts are not hanging. That's far more beyond all physics than Marvel stuff will ever be!

PS: Booyakasha!

Damnit you got me there. You'll need to back your assertions up with scans though.....:-p

Enzeru
Originally posted by abhilegend
If you want to go implied power route Book of oa had a prophecy about him, he is a direct descendent of Kryptonian sun god rao, "everything comes from superman", the unstoppable story and it was directly shown in trinity that superman CAN'T lose, brainiac 13 and imperiex said that he was a cosmic being who limits himself with human emotions, in countdown the full kryptonian powerset was reavaled and it was said that superman only use 1% of his powers because of mental blocks IIRC, etc.

That's so not the same thing and you know it, if you take few seconds to actually think about it.
Superman in the end will still only have a specific set of powers and many of the reasons why he struggles in forum fights, is because few of his enemies have a greater versatility: Thor, Martian Manhunter and so on...

The same applies for the Sentry, who is far more versatile then Superman and can bring in stuff which can take Superman down in the long run, while Sentry would stay above him, because of the powerset.
And it's not really implied what I'm talking about. It was already there. Implied was the Galactus-stalemate, which was also stated by X-Man, who was there during that fight, but yet I wouldn't use that as a high end feat for the Sentry to argue for him. What was never implied is that a stable Sentry was able to defeat the Void, something Superman would not be able to do so and this is not just my opinion, it's basically the opinion of basically everyone who ever debated about that specific fight.

Even though Superman has more and superior feats then the Void, everyone acknowledges that the Void is far superior to him, because of the shown powerlevel. Maybe you would give even that victory to Superman, but I wouldn't and that propabably applies for the most of the other users too.

But the problem is:
What most of the people fail to realize is, that a sane Sentry is more powerful then the Void. I know that it is ABC logic, but I don't see any kinds of flaws in it, since his powerlevel is clearly higher then Superman, just like Silver Surfers powerlevel is higher then Supermans. Maybe not because of the strenght and durability, but because of everything else.
Sentry > Superman, since we're not using weakened versions of them, but sane, where they're at their peak.

(Bendis really did manage to greatly downgrade the Sentry with the mental instability, so that now everyone believes that Sentry is a joke and that the Void is the real deal, which is simply not true and I explained it more then once)

If you still have problems understanding that, after this response of mine, then it's okay - I give up and I give every single win to Superman, even when it comes to their real, respective powerlevel, which is not only based by the amount of high end feats, where Sentry would lose in the first place, since he has 10 years of existence, while Superman has 80.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Damnit you got me there. You'll need to back your assertions up with scans though.....:-p

I can do that... with science !!!

Look at this first scan, how Power Girl boobies are standing perfectly, even though they're that large:

http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/9850/powergirl10v202.th.jpg

Something like that is only possible in comics.
But now take a look at this real life example:

http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/8373/carriekeaganaspowergirl.th.jpg

The girl is clearly having some problems with her boobies. They're not standing as perfectly as by the comic book Power Girl and additionally the size of them is dragging the girl to the ground. The breasts are following simple laws of physics and the girl is clearly in pain because of it.

carver9
Does anyone have that scan of Sentry going intangible?

abhilegend
Originally posted by Enzeru
That's so not the same thing and you know it, if you take few seconds to actually think about it.
Superman in the end will still only have a specific set of powers and many of the reasons why he struggles in forum fights, is because few of his enemies have a greater versatility: Thor, Martian Manhunter and so on...

The same applies for the Sentry, who is far more versatile then Superman and can bring in stuff which can take Superman down in the long run, while Sentry would stay above him, because of the powerset.
And it's not really implied what I'm talking about. It was already there. Implied was the Galactus-stalemate, which was also stated by X-Man, who was there during that fight, but yet I wouldn't use that as a high end feat for the Sentry to argue for him. What was never implied is that a stable Sentry was able to defeat the Void, something Superman would not be able to do so and this is not just my opinion, it's basically the opinion of basically everyone who ever debated about that specific fight.

Even though Superman has more and superior feats then the Void, everyone acknowledges that the Void is far superior to him, because of the shown powerlevel. Maybe you would give even that victory to Superman, but I wouldn't and that propabably applies for the most of the other users too.

But the problem is:
What most of the people fail to realize is, that a sane Sentry is more powerful then the Void. I know that it is ABC logic, but I don't see any kinds of flaws in it, since his powerlevel is clearly higher then Superman, just like Silver Surfers powerlevel is higher then Supermans. Maybe not because of the strenght and durability, but because of everything else.
Sentry > Superman, since we're not using weakened versions of them, but sane, where they're at their peak.

(Bendis really did manage to greatly downgrade the Sentry with the mental instability, so that now everyone believes that Sentry is a joke and that the Void is the real deal, which is simply not true and I explained it more then once)

If you still have problems understanding that, after this response of mine, then it's okay - I give up and I give every single win to Superman, even when it comes to their real, respective powerlevel, which is not only based by the amount of high end feats, where Sentry would lose in the first place, since he has 10 years of existence, while Superman has 80.



I can do that... with science !!!

Look at this first scan, how Power Girl boobies are standing perfectly, even though they're that large:

http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/9850/powergirl10v202.th.jpg

Something like that is only possible in comics.
But now take a look at this real life example:

http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/8373/carriekeaganaspowergirl.th.jpg

The girl is clearly having some problems with her boobies. They're not standing as perfectly as by the comic book Power Girl and additionally the size of them is dragging the girl to the ground. The breasts are following simple laws of physics and the girl is clearly in pain because of it.
So according to you green lanterns should always win in a forum fight. Tell me who wins PC validus vs sentry or Iron man vs doomsday. Your reasoning that because sentry has more powers he would win is faulty, eradicator has everything sentry has and more and he has lost to superman. GLs have as open powerset as anyone can get and yet no standard gl has a single win against superman. There is a reason he is considered a peer to thor or silver surfer even after having such common weaknesses. His combat record is extremely good despite having such a simple powerset. So obilivion destroyed entire justice league and kyle defeated and absorbed him, can kyle defeat entire justice league? Yes or no. I wouldn't give superman a single win against void. I give surfer 6.5/10 against superman.

horrorwolf
A half-stable Sentry beats Superman and Prime,

Gets stomped by 1Million.

Enzeru
Originally posted by carver9
Enzeru, do you have that scan of Sentry going intangible?

Fixed that one for you.

http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/6528/unbenannt1gr.jpg

There he goes intangible, to let the bullets go through him, to avoid ricochets. He can also go invisible aswell. There are many things he can do.

Originally posted by abhilegend
So according to you green lanterns should always win in a forum fight.

Actually the Green Lanterns should win many of their fights, judging by the powerset and of course the opponents they're facing. In many forum fights you see people posting about how character XYZ would be able to break through their constructs and even while that may be possible, Lanterns still have much more at their dispossal to take down enemies, if they're forced to use these, not very often showcased powers, but I will write more about that one in few seconds.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Tell me who wins PC validus vs sentry or Iron man vs doomsday. Your reasoning that because sentry has more powers he would win is faulty

Now you're messing up few things. That's not something I was talking about and the Spider-Man / Venom instance is the best example for that.

Spider-Man has far more feats then Venom and he has much better feats then Venom. The same applies for few of the other characters (Sentry and Thor for example), but that does not change the fact, that Venom overpowered Spider-Man mostly, when they fought each other and that Sentry overpowered Thor too, which makes him the more powerful being, since Thor was not able to handle Sentry's strenght / speed propperly.

Originally posted by abhilegend
eradicator has everything sentry has and more and he has lost to superman. GLs have as open powerset as anyone can get and yet no standard gl has a single win against superman. There is a reason he is considered a peer to thor or silver surfer even after having such common weaknesses. His combat record is extremely good despite having such a simple powerset.

Thor has much more under his dispossal, yet he has lost many fights to the Hulk and that's the mistake you're making. You're looking at their comic book showings, which are full of PIS.
Do you know what happened in the most recent "Mighty Thor" comics? Thor and Silver Surfer fought for about 3 issues and basically NOTHING happened besides some bullrushing, even though both characters have much more powers which could have been used to win the fight.

Sentry fought WW Hulk and brawled it out, without using the great amount of all the various powers he could have used to defeat the Hulk, yet he didn't since it was decided by the writer that he shouldn't defeat him in the first place, but only stop him and even for that they had to depower the Sentry hugely for that particular fight.

Comic book fights are full of PIS, where characters suddenly forget about their advantages just for the sake of the fight and the outcome of it.
How could DC let Superman lose fights, since he is their main face-character?

The World War Hulk arc was full of PIS and even though many of the fights were written so that he was able to win them in the first place, you still wouldn't acknowledge the Hulk as more powerful then Sentry, maybe even Juggernaut, Strange, or maybe even Iron Man with prep.

Sentry is not such a character with a minimalistic powerset. He has so much he could offer and if someone would write him at his full potential, he would be UNSTOPPABLE, while Superman would even then have only his physical stats and the heat vision / ice breath.

Originally posted by abhilegend
I wouldn't give superman a single win against void. I give surfer 6.5/10 against superman.

This is not about Kyle and Oblivion, it's about Sentry and Void, who were written differently and had different showings in the past.
The problem is that I'm looking at a stable Sentry, while you're lowballing him because of the time where he was restrained by the Bendis-force.

It may be weird now, but take a look at the "What If #200 Osborn Won Siege". It is only a What If, but probably one of the What If's where you could actually believe it, since you see the 616 Uatu acknowledge the events from there.
The Sentry there is basically something a stable Sentry would be pulling off, if in control of his powers. Cutting through Thor the same way like through butter? That's huge.

And Silver Surfer > Superman, if Silver Surfer is serious about the fight and uses everything under his dispossal, but you're probably imagining the fight in a comic-like way, where Superman defeats Silver Surfer in a boring slugfest, basically the same way all the comics are written nowdays, where fights are over after 6 panels and basically nothing was showcased, just not to piss off the fans.

tsscls
This is awesome, I just re-read all of these (Sentry books) today!
He is uber, but I'd give it to Supes in all three of these.
Great thread!

Or Kyle Rayner, who unfortunatley isn't included in this thread.

SamZED
Originally posted by Enzeru
Fixed that one for you.

http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/6528/unbenannt1gr.jpg

There he goes intangible, to let the bullets go through him, to avoid ricochets. He can also go invisible aswell. There are many things he can do.
Are there any other examples? Pretty sure this one wasnt meant to be intangibilty, just weird art.

Bouboumaster
I don't know about current Superman, but pre-retcon Superman murder Bob.

Enzeru
Originally posted by SamZED
Are there any other examples? Pretty sure this one wasnt meant to be intangibilty, just weird art.

Weird art? The bullets are going straight through him - it should be obvious.
Unfortunately it's the only picture and unfortunately Sentry is a character who has a lot of powers, he only displayed once.
For example the invisibility. He never did it, but it's a fact that he can do it. He healed once, he resurrected once, he manipulated molecules once, he used heat vision once, he redirected energy once and so on.

-Pr-
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
1.) Superman
2.) Superman 1 Million
3.) Superman Prime

Pretty much.

OneDumbG0
Sentry would take out Superman if he's busting out his power of a million explodin suns. I just don't see Superman fighting like an animated punching bag like Sentry and still beating the WWH out of WWH (even if WWH was holding back).

Enzeru

The Sorrow
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Sentry would take out Superman if he's busting out his power of a million explodin suns. I just don't see Superman fighting like an animated punching bag like Sentry and still beating the WWH out of WWH (even if WWH was holding back).
thumb up
Even Hercules was downed in what 3 punches? Talking while being hammered in the face multiple times by the strongest Hulk yet was an amazing durability feat and yet it is still somehow downplayed.

OneDumbG0
^ Yeah well, per forum rules we're not allowed to use Sentry when he gained awareness of his molecular manipulation abilities.

Enzeru
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Yeah well, per forum rules we're not allowed to use Sentry when he gained awareness of his molecular manipulation abilities.

That was not exactly my point:

1. Sentry had matter manipulation / also offensive matter manipulation, before Bendis came up with it. Bendis just made it clear and gave it a power, it got introduced by Jenkins, Sentry's creator.

2. This forum wants to separate the Siege Sentry and other versions, while ignoring facts. I'm not pointing my finger at people, I'm just stating that people actually have to understand the entire Sentry character before lowballing, or even overhyping him.

3. The Siege Sentry didn't use molecular manipulation and neither did the WW Sentry. They brawled it out and had pretty much the upper hand in their fights.

My point was just that Sentry's powerlevel during WW Hulk was low and that he is actually capable of a lot more.

SamZED
Originally posted by Enzeru
Weird art? The bullets are going straight through him - it should be obvious.
Unfortunately it's the only picture and unfortunately Sentry is a character who has a lot of powers, he only displayed once.
For example the invisibility. He never did it, but it's a fact that he can do it. He healed once, he resurrected once, he manipulated molecules once, he used heat vision once, he redirected energy once and so on. I am aware of his powers, read most of his appearances. And its not hard to believe that he can go intangible concidering he can manipulate molecules. But I doubt that this particular scene was meant to be a display of that ability. It was a flashback of an old weaker Sentry. And one would expect that when a new power is introduced there would at least be a comment or a narration. In this case it sems like an artist's mistake.

Enzeru
Originally posted by SamZED
I am aware of his powers, read most of his appearances. And its not hard to believe that he can go intangible concidering he can manipulate molecules. But I doubt that this particular scene was meant to be a display of that ability. It was a flashback of an old weaker Sentry. And one would expect that when a new power is introduced there would at least be a comment or a narration. In this case it sems like an artist's mistake.

It wasn't a flashback, it was the past, where Sentry, Iron Man and Dr. Doom saw Sentry fighting the Void.
It's a pity that it wasn't narrated, but would it really be that unbelievable that he phases, to avoid ricochets, which could harm bystanders? In my opinion, not really.

SamZED
Originally posted by Enzeru
It wasn't a flashback, it was the past, where Sentry, Iron Man and Dr. Doom saw Sentry fighting the Void.
It's a pity that it wasn't narrated, but would it really be that unbelievable that he phases, to avoid ricochets, which could harm bystanders? In my opinion, not really. I agree, it is believable for him to have the ability. It's just this would be a very random way do display a new power.

Enzeru
Originally posted by SamZED
I agree, it is believable for him to have the ability. It's just this would be a very random way do display a new power.

Unfortunately yeah ... But it wouldn't be the first time. Let me think ...

Super-Hearing: he can hear a butterfly sneeze in Africa while standing in New York
Invisibility: Absorbing Man absorbed Sentry's power and used it to hide from the Sentry
Aura-Detection: Used it to find Noah-Varr
Heat-Vision: He destroyed hand cuffs

The aura detection was a smart showing, but there were too many showings he didn't display later on in a smart way to have the upper hand in fights and that's kinda pesky. With his potential, no one would be able to defeat him, if they're not powerful reality warpers.

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Sentry would take out Superman if he's busting out his power of a million explodin suns. I just don't see Superman fighting like an animated punching bag like Sentry and still beating the WWH out of WWH (even if WWH was holding back).

Did he ever actually release power akin to even one exploding sun?

I don't think Superman could have triggered WWH reverting to Banner, but I do think he could have beaten him. By no means would it be easy for Kal, obviously.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Did he ever actually release power akin to even one exploding sun?

I don't think Superman could have triggered WWH reverting to Banner, but I do think he could have beaten him. By no means would it be easy for Kal, obviously.

Maybe they were very tiny suns....

Enzeru
Sentry does not have the power of one million exploding suns (yet). I would call it a reference to something what happened in his first mini, but that would be just an assumption.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Enzeru
Sentry does not have the power of one million exploding suns (yet). I would call it a reference to something what happened in his first mini, but that would be just an assumption.

I don't think he ever had anything close to that amount of power. Its just hyperbole, like Daredevil as 'The Man Without Fear'...

JakeTheBank
One exploding sun is a pretty cosmic event and would destroy a solar system.

Millions of exploding suns? The level of power and destruction that would entail is staggering and, frankly, beyond anything the Sentry or the Void has ever displayed.

Enzeru
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
One exploding sun is a pretty cosmic event and would destroy a solar system.

Millions of exploding suns? The level of power and destruction that would entail is staggering and, frankly, beyond anything the Sentry or the Void has ever displayed.

Let me explain that to you. If you're really interesting in understanding it, feel free to read it:

One Million Exploding suns is indeed a hyperbole so far. Maybe Jenkins will bring back the Sentry in the future, like he hinted it out and maybe he will show a Galactus stalemate, or Sentry releasing the energy of one million exploding suns and causing a great destruction, somewhere in a dimension without life.
Even that wouldn't turn the Sentry into a galaxy buster, since even a dwarf galaxy has over 10 million stars, so one million exploding suns / stars aren't really that match.

But even if he had the ability to release the energy equal to one million exploding suns, which would be interesting, since his body causes a photosynthetic reaction and absorbs solar radiation on a regular basis and makes him stronger, the destruction would be devastating in the end.
These one million exploding suns would go off and instantly destroy the Earth, the Moon, the Sun, maybe even Saturn and few of the other planets, but that explosion wouldn't stand a chance against the endlessness of the space. The explosion would turn into an implosion and probably become a black hole in the process. A damn huge black hole. A Void, which would devour simply everything and continue dragging the outer space in. It would probably go even further then just out of the reach of a dwarf galaxy. It would turn the Sentry into a galaxy buster for sure.

But Sentry is not a galaxy buster. He does not have the energy of one million exploding suns. He has the power of one million exploding suns:

In his first mini it was shown that he had a fight with the Void, which devastated the entire area.
The Fantastic Four tried to help, but when they arrived it was already to late. One million people were dead because of the battle between Sentry and Void.

The power of one million exploding suns could be just a metaphor. The metaphor to the one million people who died during that fight. One million exploding suns would than be one million lives taken on that day. One million exploding hearts.
Sentry has the power to take one million lives, but he has also the power to save one million exploding suns.

Sentry is power, a power with limitless potential. He already managed to erase the memories of all people on the Earth, more then once. He healed and resurrected people. There shouldn't even be one single reason, why he shouldn't be able to heal over 6 billion people by simply trying it.
But there are reasons. He is not God. At least, he doesn't think of himself as a God and at the same time, he is afraid of the Void. If he heals someone, he provokes his dark side, the Void who gives a young mother breast cancer, just to piss the Sentry off.

They can do all that because of their molecule manipulation. They can do whatever they want, they're omnipotent.
Sentry has the power of one million exploding suns and he has the potential to affect everything on the scale of one million exploding suns. He could destroy it, he could repair it, just the way the Molecule Man did it in the past, yet he still lost in the fight against the Sentry, since he was not experienced with Sentry's special kind of molecules which dwells one step ahead of the current timestream. If Sentry dies, he simply returns from his own point of existance.

There was a fight during "Civil War - The Return" between Sentry and Absorbing man. It was written in the year 2005 by Jenkins, Sentry's creator, 3-4 years before Bendis wrote the fight where Sentry faced the Molecule Man.
In that fight in the year 2005 Absorbing Man tried to absorb Sentry's power, yet he wasn't able to, since there was simply too much. He acknowledged it - he said that he never felt power like that before and wanted more, but then Sentry did his move.

Sentry said, that Absorbing Man couldn't even absorb the energy of one planet, and if he can't do something like that, that he would never be able to handle the power of one million exploding suns.
Do you see the difference? Sentry says energy at first, but then he talks about power. And that's what he confronted Absorbing Man with after that.

Sentry's eyes started glowing and the Absorbing Man begged him to stop. Absorbing Man started dissolving, twisting and disappeared, while Sentry was narrating:

"Creel melts with the power of one million exploding suns.. atom by atom.. dissolving into photons and neutrons and solar wind."

Molecules are made out of atoms, photons, neutrons, solar wind. And that's what happens when Sentry comes back from the dead. When he simply appears back again, out of nothing. He reforms out of the solar wind, thanks to his molecule manipulation and that's what he also threw at Absorbing Man. He didn't have to punch him to death, or to energy blast him into the ground, since it lies in Absorbing Mans powerset to keep returning aswell, so Sentry did it the fast way and molecule manipulated the crap out of the Absorbing Man.

Which proves that Sentry shown that he can do offensive molecule manipulation, before the moment where the Void used it on the Molecule Man. Jenkins is responsible for that and gave it to Bendis. Many people don't know, but Jenkins and Bendis were / are actually buddies and Jenkins was happy when Bendis decided to put Sentry into the New Avengers.

But molecule manipulation is not everything. Sentry can also absorb, manipulate and emit vast amounts of energy. His highest showing was during the fight against Photon, where they were both shredding worlds with their energy output, while still holding back.
So he is at least a planet buster, if he is in a good condition. If he is mentally unstable, then his power level can shrink, like it was shown during his fight against World War Hulk, where his power release was only destroying city blocks.

I hope that explains the entire "power of one million exploding suns" better.

cdtm
Originally posted by ozz81
1.Sentry vs Regular or Classic Superman


Sentry, with ease.

I can't see Superman stomping Terrax as easily as Bob did. Even Surfer had to put in some effort against Terrax, and imo Surfer could take pre reboot Superman.

DarkSaint85
Not really, apart from the admission that the term 'one million exploding suns' may not actually be that, but might be a metaphor instead.

And no, molecules are NOT made of photons, or solar wind...

Enzeru
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
And no, molecules are NOT made of photons, or solar wind...

Solar wind > Photons and neutrons > Atoms > Molecules, or am I totally wrong right now o_O It's few years back since I had something like that in school.

I know that people could think that someone who controles the molecules, is only limited to the molecules and can't tap further and deconstruct them too, but many of the matter manipulators should be basically doing exactly the same thing. For example the Molecule Man, who was creating things out of nothing, so that you could actually think that he was reality warping the stuff.
A reality warper should always easily defeat a molecule manipulators, yet he had some good fights with the Beyonder.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Enzeru
Solar wind > Photons and neutrons > Atoms > Molecules, or am I totally wrong right now o_O It's few years back since I had something like that in school.

Yup, you're totally wrong atm..

Enzeru

DarkSaint85

Enzeru
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So....where does solar wind and photons come into your copy and paste?

Damn, why are we talking about science, when we're dealing with comics? The next question will be something about the ridiculous speed-force :X

However, photons too have to do something with the atoms. Sentry can also manipulate light. I could even go as far to say, that his molecule manipulation is linked to light, but that would be way too much know-how for me to learn about, so I'm simply calling it basic matter manipulation.

However, if you're interested in the SOLAR wind > photon > atom > molecules stuff... even the title says it all:

http://www.phys.ens.fr/~Claude%20Cohen-Tannoudji/articles/rev-modern-phys/rmv-juillet-1998-p707.pdf

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Enzeru
Damn, why are we talking about science, when we're dealing with comics? The next question will be something about the ridiculous speed-force :X

However, photons too have to do something with the atoms. Sentry can also manipulate light. I could even go as far to say, that his molecule manipulation is linked to light, but that would be way too much know-how for me to learn about, so I'm simply calling it basic matter manipulation.

However, if you're interested in the SOLAR wind > photon > atom > molecules stuff... even the title says it all:

http://www.phys.ens.fr/~Claude%20Cohen-Tannoudji/articles/rev-modern-phys/rmv-juillet-1998-p707.pdf

No no no. I just wanted to clear this up, then we can go back to debating comics.

Solar winds are NOT a separate entity. They are made up of electrons and protons etc.

Photons are NOT a component of atoms.

Enzeru
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
No no no. I just wanted to clear this up, then we can go back to debating comics.
Solar winds are NOT a separate entity. They are made up of electrons and protons etc.
Photons are NOT a component of atoms.

That's true, but I never stated something else. You came up with the fact that Sentry was talking about photons instead of protons, but photons are light based and they can be used to manipulate atoms, and therefore molecules. Sentry manipulates light and the radiation to turn invisible and it looks like he manipulates light to manipulate the molecules.

Damn, I'm tired and off for today. AUFWIEDERSEHEN!

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Enzeru
That's true, but I never stated something else.

Yes you did; try reading what you actually type. Here, I'll quote you:



Whilst you may not have said atoms are made out of photons, you DID say that molecules are made out of photons. Which is equally wrong; photons don't make up anything other than light.

Reason why I'm on your back about this is because, whilst I admit I am not the expert on the Sentry (that seems to be you), the fact that you can't get basic scientific facts correct leads me to question your interpretation of comic book fiction.

Laminator_X
Bob's powers are what he feels or imagines them to be. On any given day he might beat Superman, or not. I don't think you could really say in the abstract, it would always come down to specifics.

bbrem123
Originally posted by Laminator_X
Bob's powers are what he feels or imagines them to be. On any given day he might beat Superman, or not. I don't think you could really say in the abstract, it would always come down to specifics.

I agree with this...that is why void is so powerful...its all just his state of mind

Uriel005
Originally posted by Enzeru
Damn, why are we talking about science, when we're dealing with comics? The next question will be something about the ridiculous speed-force :X

However, photons too have to do something with the atoms. Sentry can also manipulate light. I could even go as far to say, that his molecule manipulation is linked to light, but that would be way too much know-how for me to learn about, so I'm simply calling it basic matter manipulation.

However, if you're interested in the SOLAR wind > photon > atom > molecules stuff... even the title says it all:

http://www.phys.ens.fr/~Claude%20Cohen-Tannoudji/articles/rev-modern-phys/rmv-juillet-1998-p707.pdf Mostly back it up with numbers because people try to put off feats as no big deal. So when an actual number crunch comes in it's more to shut people up about trying to say a feat doesn't mean anything. Besides speed and strength are some of the few things in comics that can be given any type of definitive number. You can approximately mass a planet/amount of strength it would take for a lifting/strength feat. Similarly to speed where you can at least try to assign a definitive number to rank a character. Unlike magic or cosmic abilities where I just kinda have to twiddle my thumbs and take a crapshoot guess on how much mystical energy it takes a sorceror/ess to trash a planet as because no one including the writers has anything they can compare their capabilities to.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Uriel005
Mostly back it up with numbers because people try to put off feats as no big deal. So when an actual number crunch comes in it's more to shut people up about trying to say a feat doesn't mean anything. Besides speed and strength are some of the few things in comics that can be given any type of definitive number. You can approximately mass a planet/amount of strength it would take for a lifting/strength feat. Similarly to speed where you can at least try to assign a definitive number to rank a character. Unlike magic or cosmic abilities where I just kinda have to twiddle my thumbs and take a crapshoot guess on how much mystical energy it takes a sorceror/ess to trash a planet as because no one including the writers has anything they can compare their capabilities to.

I understand, but much like when h1a8 tries to use maths, it kinda crumbles and falls over, which leads me to suspect that if his understanding of real world physics is suspect, or even worse, that he twists real world physics to suit his own theories, what more to say something like a comic book which is open to interpretation...

Enzeru
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I understand, but much like when h1a8 tries to use maths, it kinda crumbles and falls over, which leads me to suspect that if his understanding of real world physics is suspect, or even worse, that he twists real world physics to suit his own theories, what more to say something like a comic book which is open to interpretation...

You're acting like what I've said was totally wrong. Forget about the damn protons. I didn't pay attention, when I used copy/paste.
The fact is that atoms can be manipulated with photons (light) and Sentry is able to manipulate the light, therefore he manipulates the molecules and that's what is stated in his fight against the Absorbing Man.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Enzeru
You're acting like what I've said was totally wrong. Forget about the damn protons. I didn't pay attention, when I used copy/paste.
The fact is that atoms can be manipulated with photons (light) and Sentry is able to manipulate the light, therefore he manipulates the molecules and that's what is stated in his fight against the Absorbing Man.
That's the most absurd thing I've ever heard including h1a8's math. So because dr light can manipulate light(duh) or magneto and dr polaris can manipulate entire EM spectrum, they can suddenly do matter manipulation too. Or if element lad can manipulate matter he can manipulate energy too. Unless it was specificaly said that he was matter manipulating, you're seriously reaching here but IT'S YOU so maybe not.

Enzeru
^ No wonder that few people here don't take you serious >:-]

wildernesss
Originally posted by abhilegend
That's the most absurd thing I've ever heard including h1a8's math. So because dr light can manipulate light(duh) or magneto and dr polaris can manipulate entire EM spectrum, they can suddenly do matter manipulation too. Or if element lad can manipulate matter he can manipulate energy too. Unless it was specificaly said that he was matter manipulating, you're seriously reaching here but IT'S YOU so maybe not.


try reading the second dark avengers arc; it was the molecule man himself who asked the sentry (in a distressed way) how he was able to control molecules.


that not good enough for you?

Laminator_X
Don't look for any sort of rigorous consistency to the Sentry's powers. They're all a manifestation of what Bob imagines The Golden Guardian of Good ought to be like. He's all the jokes about Silver Age Supes made manifest.

Ultimately, any ideas about photosynthesis, or being one second out of sync with the universe, or the Totally-Not-The-Anti-Monitor thing from Age of the Sentry, or manipulating molecules, or whatever are all dross. Robert just hangs his fantasy on whatever happens to sound good at that moment.

Enzeru
Originally posted by wildernesss
try reading the second dark avengers arc; it was the molecule man himself who asked the sentry (in a distressed way) how he was able to control molecules.
that not good enough for you?

That is actually a damn good point.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Enzeru
^ No wonder that few people here don't take you serious >:-]

You think people take you seriously here. laughing out loud . Keep going where you are going with your "stable sentry" and you would join the same special position that carver and quanchi hold here.

Originally posted by wildernesss
try reading the second dark avengers arc; it was the molecule man himself who asked the sentry (in a distressed way) how he was able to control molecules.


that not good enough for you?

I've read it thank you very much. That's as much of an outlier feat for sentry as superman singing darkseid out of existence or thor breaking Exitar's armor. By mod ruling it is not usable for normal sentry.

Enzeru
Originally posted by abhilegend
You think people take you seriously here. laughing out loud . Keep going where you are going with your "stable sentry" and you would join the same special position that carver and quanchi hold here.

I actually debate and bring in valid points, no matter if you don't take them seriously. You are just like the other guy from India I met on Comicvine. Most of your posts have some kind of trolling in them and that's pathetic.

Originally posted by abhilegend
I've read it thank you very much. That's as much of an outlier feat for sentry as superman singing darkseid out of existence or thor breaking Exitar's armor. By mod ruling it is not usable for normal sentry.

The normal Sentry displayed more power then the Siege Sentry, so what does it matter?
The normal Sentry was shredding worlds while holding back and when no one was near, his power release was visible in the regular world, even though he himself was in a microverse.
So overpowering Thor with sheer strenght isn't the top showing for the Sentry when it comes to something like that.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Enzeru
I actually debate and bring in valid points, no matter if you don't take them seriously. You are just like the other guy from India I met on Comicvine. Most of your posts have some kind of trolling in them and that's pathetic.

Your "good points" means that we only take sentry's high end feats into account and wherever sentry has a low showing blame it on "bendis sentry". Just below you are trying to use the same double standard, mind you that showing was also of "bendis sentry". Your theory on paper sounds quite good but if we inspect it closely it falls apart.





Make your mind, once you say that sentry displayed more power when he was not restrained by "bendis force" and now you're claiming that he displayed more powers when he was normal. FYI genis was playing with him and your world shredding was just a hyperbole as captain america was in the vicinity of that attack and was completely fine.

wildernesss
Originally posted by abhilegend

I've read it thank you very much. That's as much of an outlier feat for sentry as superman singing darkseid out of existence or thor breaking Exitar's armor. By mod ruling it is not usable for normal sentry.



"normal" sentry created a werewolf in the palm of his hands (via the same powers) a few panels later; that IS usable by mod ruling and clearly and unmistakingly shows a fully normal/voidless sentry fully aware of his newly understood powers. that panel & feat,
regardless of the brevity, contradicts your "only the void can do that" rhetoric.

btw, sentry (NO void) also beat the absorbing man through molecular manipulation.

Enzeru
Okay abhilegend, listen now - I will confront you with few scans and facts now:

1. Yes, it was Bendis who was restraining the Sentry, since he needed him at lower power levels to have him as an actualy Avengers member, without being too powerful and soloing everyone on the battlefield in two seconds, basically something the Sentry would be capable off, and for that he exploited Sentry's mental instability vastly. He wrote the Sentry often out of character. Sentry was supposed to be the very first superhero on the Marvel Earth, more experienced and powerful then anyone else and in Bendis take, he had to ask Norman Osborn if killing is a good thing? Come on...

2. I'm not saying that Bendis is a bad writer, but he did some weird stuff, to make the story-telling easier for him, or to boost the characters he likes. For example, Bendis is in love with black people. In the Ultimate Universe, he turned Nick Fury into a black guy, killed off Peter Parker and made a black kid the New Spider-Man. In 616 he gave Luke Cage the leadership over the Avengers and boosted him up with feats and in real-life Bendis adopted 2 black children. Right ...
Besides that he kicked Ms. Marvel out of the Avengers once and put Spider-Woman in, simply because he is more familiar with the characters. He writes the characters often out of character and even though Moonstone for example was always a little bit slutty, her entire meaning during the Dark Avengers was to sleep with nearly the entire team. There was nothing else she did. We all know that Bendis tends to have good, but totally similar dialogues. No one is different, he ignores stuff in the past and so on.

3. Other writers also had different takes on the Sentry with Paul Jenkins being the first one, who turned the Sentry into something more then a regular powerhouse. His Sentry was so powerful, that he was the only one who was able to go toe on toe with the Void and defeat the Void.
Pak had to depower the Sentry vastly and let him be unstable for the fight with World War Hulk. Sentry totally ignored the destruction caused by the Hulk and stayed at home, until the moment where he had to enter the battle, since Hulk was threatening the heroes.

http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/6391/74525102.jpg
http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/9116/30391861.jpg

Read these two scans, which show that he was in very weak condition, unable to intervene at the beginning.


http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/174/aawwh05008009.jpg
http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/892/aawwh05015.jpg
http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/1483/aawwh05016.jpg
http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/6449/aawwh05017.jpg

http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/5415/aawwh05019.jpg
http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/7157/aawwh05021.jpg
http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/1020/aawwh05022.jpg
http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/5948/aawwh05023.jpg
http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/9018/aawwh05024.jpg

Sentry lost the control over his powers and destroyed few city blocks and caused damage in billions. That is actually being very unstable for a character who is supposed to be a great superhero. And with that mental instability his powerlevel output wasn't that huge. When he released his power, he didn't cause any "one million exploding suns" near damage, but all that was still more then enough to have the upper hand against the Hulk from the very first beginning.

Sentry bullrushed the Hulk through few buildings. When Hulk was attacking him mercylessly Sentry didn't block the punches, but took them all and talked to the Hulk. When he was done talking, he started punching the crap out of the Hulk, who then was in huge disadvantage. Then Hulk managed to fight back and Sentry continued talking, while not bothering about the punches. In the end he was again the one who was bitchslapping the Hulk, who was not able to defend himself. Hulk was restrained under Sentry's power output and his warbounds had to free the Hulk, who got mad and continued fighting the Sentry.
You probably know about the outcome, where they both reverted back and Bruce knocked out Robert.

Pak was not the only one, who acknowledged Sentry's vast powerlevel and had to tone him down for few of Sentry's fights.
Even Bendis did it right during one of the fights. For example the Avengers VS Collective fight.

Even there the writer had to tone done the Sentry, who was lying in his bed, unable to go out because of his agoraphobia, while the Collective killed nearly entire Alpha Flight and threatened thousands of innocents.

Captain America then yelled at Robert and ordered him to enter the battle, what Robert then did.

http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/684/39763944.jpg
http://img607.imageshack.us/img607/4011/76355656.jpg

And an unstable Sentry was enough to stalemate the Collective for quite a while, who killed Alpha Flight, toyed with the Avengers and even easily overpowered Binary, who is a planet buster at best.

http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/4900/96202531.jpg
http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/9485/36470507.jpg
http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/6413/88239901.jpg
http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/8731/scan0012a.jpg

To be honest, it was not the best showing for the Sentry, since the Collective was inexperienced with his powers, a reason why Sentry lasted that long in the first place, but I also already mentioned that Sentry was not in his prime either.

However, there were other writers, like for example Nicieza who was written the Sentry as actually very powerful. He too probably understood the concept of the character, since there was not a single moment which hinted out that Sentry was in a weak condition, so he let the Sentry go full out and now you should look very carefully at the scans and also read my words:

http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/2320/newthunderbolts014page0.jpg

On this scan you see them starting with the fight and Sentry is unsure about it, since he does not want to harm the planet. Photon then teleports them away.

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/8394/newthunderbolts014page1.jpg

You see them fighting in the Microverse and you see the golden sun-like energy escaling, Sentry's power release. They start destroying the entire area while fighting and still holding back, since Captain America is down there aswell.

http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/8394/newthunderbolts014page1.jpg

Photon then teleports Captain America away and Sentry and Photon are totally alone in the subatomic microverse and start releasing more power, while they're fighting.

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/8394/newthunderbolts014page1.jpg

And now pay good attention at the scan. Do you see what is happening? The first small panel shows huge amounts of Sentry's power being visible while he is in a microverse, which is subatomic, as you can judge it by the atoms and the molecules. The second small pannel shows their exact position - the position of the microverse, which is near Iron Man's armor. You see Sentry's golden energy being visible in the real universe, while he and Photon are in the Microverse.

It's basically ...

Universe = Microverse (but in microscopic) ... of course we don't know how huge the microverse exactly was, but through the fact that we can see Sentry's power in the regular universe, while he is in a microverse, is pretty damn huge and puts him far above a planet buster. Far above.

http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/8394/newthunderbolts014page1.jpg

In the next scan you see Photon teleporting Sentry and himself out of the microverse, out of the spot where they were on Iron Man's armor and crushing Iron Man in the process and you see Photon's power display, which is crystallish blue, while Sentrys was golden-fiery and was visible from the microverse.

Then you see Photon teleporting Sentry back to a microverse again and stating, that it will be too late when he gets out of the microverse. Can Sentry escape out of the microverse all by himself? Or is Photon going to release him, when they're gone? After that display, I don't even think that something like that matters anymore, since you saw Sentry's power level now.

Also basically the very first time where he had the chance to release a serious amount of energy, while in the past there was never an instance where he could have been able to release that much power, without destroying the Earth, since he was always an Earth bound hero.

Edit: I would also like to point out that I don't see how Photon was exactly playing with him. What I saw in the scans was that Sentry's power release was so vast, that it was visible from the real world, while you couldn't see much of Photons power release. In the next panel Photon teleported them both back and BFR'd the Sentry. Is being able to BFR someone toying with him, for you? I don't think so, since that doesn't automatically mean, that person 1 is more powerful then person 2.

If you would try to bring in a good argument, then you would say that Sentry didn't release that much energy, but that Photon shunted it away to defend himself and that's why it was visible in the real world, because Sentry's energy got redirected between the universes, but that would be speculation from your side, since we could clearly see it otherwise.

To me it looked like Sentry gained the upper hand, since most of his power was visible and then Photon teleported him away.

bbrem123
Its funny to watch abhilegend fail miserably in this debate. All I see is garbage and nonsense getting spewed out when he posts.

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by wildernesss
"normal" sentry created a werewolf in the palm of his hands (via the same powers) a few panels later; that IS usable by mod ruling and clearly and unmistakingly shows a fully normal/voidless sentry fully aware of his newly understood powers. that panel & feat,
regardless of the brevity, contradicts your "only the void can do that" rhetoric.

btw, sentry (NO void) also beat the absorbing man through molecular manipulation. That also is unusable per mod ruling. Anything during and after the Molecule Man fight is unusable.

It's been my impression that he overloaded Creel with pure power.

Sin I AM
Originally posted by OneDumbG0

It's been my impression that he overloaded Creel with pure power.

wink

wildernesss
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
That also is unusable per mod ruling. Anything during and after the Molecule Man fight is unusable.

It's been my impression that he overloaded Creel with pure power.


ok, but the information provided by those storylines retroactively confirm that the nature of his powers are light/molecular based; that's how sentry was able to resurrect his wife, bypass dr doom's armor defences,create clothing (i.e. sentry costume) out of nothing or bob's normal clothes, or create hard light void constructs subconsciously. feats from the molecule man arc & siege may be unusable, but the information within it is extremely usable.

svex
SUPERMAN EFFORTLESSLY IN ALL,
2 AND 3 ARE MISMATCH.
ONLY SENTRY FANBOYS CAN MAKE THIS LOL Happy Dance smokin'

Tony Stark
Originally posted by svex
SUPERMAN EFFORTLESSLY IN ALL,
2 AND 3 ARE MISMATCH.
ONLY SENTRY FANBOYS CAN MAKE THIS LOL Happy Dance smokin'


SENTRY wins effortlessly in ALL!!!

Only a Superman wank would think any different. Happy Dance smokin'

quanchi112
Originally posted by bbrem123
Its funny to watch abhilegend fail miserably in this debate. All I see is garbage and nonsense getting spewed out when he posts. laughing out loud

Enzeru owned him.

Warlord
Supes.
Immune to mater manipulation
Energy manipulation
Telepathy
and his fists cancel auto regeneration/heal

Supes pumels him

bbrem123
^ lol

Tony Stark
Originally posted by Warlord
Supes.
Immune to mater manipulation
Energy manipulation
Telepathy
and his fists cancel auto regeneration/heal

Supes pumels him



no expression

Igniz
Originally posted by Enzeru
1. Yes, it was Bendis who was restraining the Sentry, since he needed him at lower power levels to have him as an actualy Avengers member, without being too powerful and soloing everyone on the battlefield in two seconds, basically something the Sentry would be capable off, and for that he exploited Sentry's mental instability vastly.

In Short, Character assassination Bendis Style.

As for this thread, if this is Deathtry, then Deathtry does a scary face to knock out Superman smokin'

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