Thor vs Silver Surfer vs Genis Photon Vell vs Sentry

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Nihilist
All going all out for the kill.

Who falls in what order ?

Enzeru
How stable do you allow Sentry to be?

quanchi112
Originally posted by Enzeru
How stable do you allow Sentry to be? You can't control his stability. This is clearly based off his entire history. You are attempting to alter the character because you like him.

Bouboumaster
1- Genis, even if Surfer proved himself one time his superior

2- Surfer/Thor

3- Sentry

Nihilist
Originally posted by Bouboumaster
1- Genis, even if Surfer proved himself one time his superior

2- Surfer/Thor

3- Sentry When did Surfer prove him self superior to "Photon" ?

Enzeru
Originally posted by quanchi112
You can't control his stability. This is clearly based off his entire history. You are attempting to alter the character because you like him.

I don't like him, I love him and I love him because of his complexity. The problem is that many people don't know how to deal with that complexity, since they never bothered to study him in the first place:
Sentry's power level is based on his mental stability and his morals. I already proved that before.
His creator, Paul Jenkins came up with that idea. To let his power level sink, if Sentry struggels and that's what happens.

- If he struggels, then he is in a weak condition and still stalemates WW Hulk and busts half of a city during the release of his power.

+ If he is clear minded, he takes Savage Hulk's hits without flinching, overpowers him mentally and destroys planets while holding his energy release back.

- If he struggels, he has problems with lifting a helicarrier and needs 12 minutes to fly from one point of America to another one.

+ If he is clear minded, he contains an escaping Cosmic Cube for a while and flies all over the world in seconds, without even trying. He flies from the Earth to the sun during one single conversation and sometimes even faster.

- If he struggels, then he lets Ms. Marvel absorb energy to save Iron Man.

+ If he is clear minded, he draws energy from everywhere while going on toe on toe with someome like Genis-Vell.

- If he struggels, then he can't protect the Hulk from the Void.

+ If he is clear minded, he simply creates a healing orb, which protects the Void, hell he even heals a girl, who was in a catatonic state before.

... Do you see the play?
And now continue thinking ...

If he is totally out of character struggeling, where his entire, awesome character from his first and second mini is ignored, then other things happen ...

~ If he Bendis struggels, then he has problems keeping the Void low, so that the Void has the chance to take over Sentry's body and do what it wants to do, while in the past Void didn't have a different chance but to manifest himself as a separate being, because Sentry was so powerful and clear minded that he was dominating the Void.

~ If he Bendis struggels, then he has problems taking down Ultron, but after taking few hits, the Void takes over ... It's still the Sentry, but simply his dark side and then he starts destroying Ultron.

~ If he Bendis struggels, then he gets killed over and over by the Molecule Man, but after he dies too often, the Void takes over who then destroys the Molecule Man.

~~~ If he struggels so much, that it's already out of character, then you see hard plot devices going on to remove him as fast as possible from the battlefield, like seen so many times, where the writers found a stupid way to get rid of him and ignored everything from before...

- Hammond overloading him with fire, even though the Sentry was multiple times in the sun?
- The Young Avengers BFR'ing him with freakin' magic, even though someone like Doctor Strange was not able to deal with the Sentry?
- Skrull's getting rid of him by confronting him with the Void, even though there were more than enough instances where Sentry stayed in the game and faced the Void.

Noooooooo :-7
The thing is that the Sentry-haters ... and believe me, there are thousands of them only look at the weak Sentry showings and take that to measure his power level, while the Sentry-fans try to ignore all of these and only look at his best showings, to make him shine.

While both ways have their flaws, I'm being neutral and I'm extremely biased towards Sentry, yet I would never simply lie or deny facts to make him win every single fact.

I indeed like the Sentry, that should be obvious and I indeed don't like to look at his bad showings, but only when it comes to the forum battles, since that's not how we use the characters. We don't simply pick a mentally unstable Sentry and let him face Superman, because then Sentry would clearly lose the battle, since a mentally unstable "lost" to WW Hulk, even though he had the upper hand in the fight, but that Sentry would have wrecked Hulk, if he had used his entire versatility, or also if his overall power level was higher, which was not the case because of his agoraphobia.

When it comes to forum battles, we use the characters at their prime and at his prime Sentry was a clear minded, god like character, who still struggeled with the Void, but he never backed off. He stood there and faced the darkness. He was the one who was physically capable of harming the Void, overwhelming the Void and tossing him into the sun, while Savage Hulk was going down after simple attacks and even guys like classic Thor and classic Strange were chanceless.

Enzeru
And to this fight:

1. Sentry / Photon
2. Silver Surfer / Thor

Sentry and Photon were kinda equal. Photon teleported them away into a microverse, they were both destroying planets while holding back and after Photon teleported Capatin America away out of the microverse, they both kinda cut loose I guess and released even more energy.
Sentry's energy was visible in the real world and shortly after Photon broke out of the microverse and teleported Sentry away, while saying that he would be long gone, before Sentry finds a way out of the microverse.

Call me biased towards Sentry, but for me it looked like Sentry had the upper hand in the fight, since his energy was visible in the real world, while they were in the microverse and Photon also left the microverse after that, so maybe Sentry's energy was too much inside of the microverse, but that's just me assuming hard right now.
Then Photon won via BFR' and yet he knew that Sentry would find a way out, so judging by that I give Sentry the slight advantage.

Thor and Silver Surfer? While they both had few fights in the past, where Silver Surfer was often in disadvantage, I still feel like Silver Surfer didn't use his abilities to their full potential. I'm not sure if Thor could take everything Silver Surfer could throw at him. Thanks to Mjolnir, which is superior to Silver Surfer's power cosmic, he probably would be able to do so, but Silver Surfer's insane speed and the ability to vary his powers faster should give him a slight advantage in this fight.

And yes, I see Silver Surfer being inferior to the Sentry. Judging by the feats he would stomp Sentry into oblivion who does not have as much feats as the Silver Surfer, but judging by the encounters they had and how they faced the opponents, I see Sentry overall having a far greater power level, when it comes to terms of RAW POWER, basically the reason why he was also able to defeat the Molecule Man in the end. It's all about his raw power, while he lacks the finesse of his powers. The finesse Silver Surfer has, but I don't see him that helping all too much in this battle and even though he could be faster then the Sentry, he would probably still have a very, very hard time, since Sentry often mainly uses AOE attacks, basically attacks which affect the entire area. He is doing that far more often then using concentrated energy beams, and if he is clear minded and releases energies powerful enough to destroy planets, while he is still holding back, I see him clearly hurting the Silver Surfer badly and also see him overpowering Thor overall and having other advantages like the strenght and hell, maybe even the combat strenght, since he already brawled it out with WW Hulk, while Thor struggeled with weaker versions of the Hulk, for example the Savage Hulk, who could not make the Sentry even flinch.

Not so sure about the Silver Surfer VS Photon, but I would personally say that Photon would win :-7

King Kandy
Photon is the ultimate winner, I can't really say the order much though.

Mindset
Originally posted by King Kandy
Photon is the ultimate winner, I can't really say the order much though. thumb up

quanchi112
Originally posted by Enzeru
I don't like him, I love him and I love him because of his complexity. The problem is that many people don't know how to deal with that complexity, since they never bothered to study him in the first place:
Sentry's power level is based on his mental stability and his morals. I already proved that before.
His creator, Paul Jenkins came up with that idea. To let his power level sink, if Sentry struggels and that's what happens.

- If he struggels, then he is in a weak condition and still stalemates WW Hulk and busts half of a city during the release of his power.

+ If he is clear minded, he takes Savage Hulk's hits without flinching, overpowers him mentally and destroys planets while holding his energy release back.

- If he struggels, he has problems with lifting a helicarrier and needs 12 minutes to fly from one point of America to another one.

+ If he is clear minded, he contains an escaping Cosmic Cube for a while and flies all over the world in seconds, without even trying. He flies from the Earth to the sun during one single conversation and sometimes even faster.

- If he struggels, then he lets Ms. Marvel absorb energy to save Iron Man.

+ If he is clear minded, he draws energy from everywhere while going on toe on toe with someome like Genis-Vell.

- If he struggels, then he can't protect the Hulk from the Void.

+ If he is clear minded, he simply creates a healing orb, which protects the Void, hell he even heals a girl, who was in a catatonic state before.

... Do you see the play?
And now continue thinking ...

If he is totally out of character struggeling, where his entire, awesome character from his first and second mini is ignored, then other things happen ...

~ If he Bendis struggels, then he has problems keeping the Void low, so that the Void has the chance to take over Sentry's body and do what it wants to do, while in the past Void didn't have a different chance but to manifest himself as a separate being, because Sentry was so powerful and clear minded that he was dominating the Void.

~ If he Bendis struggels, then he has problems taking down Ultron, but after taking few hits, the Void takes over ... It's still the Sentry, but simply his dark side and then he starts destroying Ultron.

~ If he Bendis struggels, then he gets killed over and over by the Molecule Man, but after he dies too often, the Void takes over who then destroys the Molecule Man.

~~~ If he struggels so much, that it's already out of character, then you see hard plot devices going on to remove him as fast as possible from the battlefield, like seen so many times, where the writers found a stupid way to get rid of him and ignored everything from before...

- Hammond overloading him with fire, even though the Sentry was multiple times in the sun?
- The Young Avengers BFR'ing him with freakin' magic, even though someone like Doctor Strange was not able to deal with the Sentry?
- Skrull's getting rid of him by confronting him with the Void, even though there were more than enough instances where Sentry stayed in the game and faced the Void.

Noooooooo :-7
The thing is that the Sentry-haters ... and believe me, there are thousands of them only look at the weak Sentry showings and take that to measure his power level, while the Sentry-fans try to ignore all of these and only look at his best showings, to make him shine.

While both ways have their flaws, I'm being neutral and I'm extremely biased towards Sentry, yet I would never simply lie or deny facts to make him win every single fact.

I indeed like the Sentry, that should be obvious and I indeed don't like to look at his bad showings, but only when it comes to the forum battles, since that's not how we use the characters. We don't simply pick a mentally unstable Sentry and let him face Superman, because then Sentry would clearly lose the battle, since a mentally unstable "lost" to WW Hulk, even though he had the upper hand in the fight, but that Sentry would have wrecked Hulk, if he had used his entire versatility, or also if his overall power level was higher, which was not the case because of his agoraphobia.

When it comes to forum battles, we use the characters at their prime and at his prime Sentry was a clear minded, god like character, who still struggeled with the Void, but he never backed off. He stood there and faced the darkness. He was the one who was physically capable of harming the Void, overwhelming the Void and tossing him into the sun, while Savage Hulk was going down after simple attacks and even guys like classic Thor and classic Strange were chanceless. We also don't dismiss the actual character and forget about their mental issues either. The showings I use are what's in character not some sort of aberration. I seem to grasp the Sentry you seem to just enjoy his power set.

The Void is this character at his best because he doesn't carry the guilt the Sentry does but even then it could still resurface if you live long enough to bring it out like in Siege.

JakeTheBank
Genis.

Don Corleone
Genny.

bbrem123
Originally posted by quanchi112
We also don't dismiss the actual character and forget about their mental issues either. The showings I use are what's in character not some sort of aberration. I seem to grasp the Sentry you seem to just enjoy his power set.

The Void is this character at his best because he doesn't carry the guilt the Sentry does but even then it could still resurface if you live long enough to bring it out like in Siege.

Using sentry's unstable appearances is not taking the forum rules in account. You are suppose to take the characters at the best of there abilities, not worst. Using feats where he is unstable would just be lowballing and should be dismissed unless the OP states they are valid(which is basically handicapping the character). In character just means they way they would go about a fight in comics. And also if im not mistaken void and sentry are to be used as separate entities in forum battles. So using the unstable card should be a worthless argument in a forum battle.

Thats just my take on the sentry and how he should be used in forum battle going by the rules.

h1a8
Originally posted by quanchi112
You can't control his stability. This is clearly based off his entire history. You are attempting to alter the character because you like him.

In his entire history he had different mental states. It's impossible for him to have all of them at the same time (in this single forum fight). That is why the KMC rule is for characters to fight at their best ability AS SHOWN BEFORE. Otherwise, a character can lose if he/she fights subpar and they can win if they fight at their best canon shown ability.

Did you catch the "as shown before" part?

bbrem123
Originally posted by h1a8
In his entire history he had different mental states. It's impossible for him to have all of them at the same time (in this single forum fight). That is why the KMC rule is for characters to fight at their best ability AS SHOWN BEFORE. Otherwise, a character can lose if he/she fights subpar and they can win if they fight at their best canon shown ability.

Did you catch the "as shown before" part? thumb up

h1a8
Originally posted by Nihilist
All going all out for the kill.

Who falls in what order ?

A non jobbing Surfer going for the kill is very dangerous. So I'm not sure if him or Sentry falls first. But I think Photon at his most powerful has the best chance of winning.

quanchi112
Originally posted by bbrem123
Using sentry's unstable appearances is not taking the forum rules in account. You are suppose to take the characters at the best of there abilities, not worst. Using feats where he is unstable would just be lowballing and should be dismissed unless the OP states they are valid(which is basically handicapping the character). In character just means they way they would go about a fight in comics. And also if im not mistaken void and sentry are to be used as separate entities in forum battles. So using the unstable card should be a worthless argument in a forum battle.

Thats just my take on the sentry and how he should be used in forum battle going by the rules. No, this is incorrect. Sentry always has mental issues plaguing him but it's more Sentry problem than a Void problem. Even when he fought the WW Hulk and unleashed himself he was still mentally weak. We don't ignore the major characteristics of a character just because you like them. This has been a part of him since the onset. I am not using one showing to paint the picture but many showings to address my points. Again this isn't an aberration.

quanchi112
Originally posted by h1a8
In his entire history he had different mental states. It's impossible for him to have all of them at the same time (in this single forum fight). That is why the KMC rule is for characters to fight at their best ability AS SHOWN BEFORE. Otherwise, a character can lose if he/she fights subpar and they can win if they fight at their best canon shown ability.

Did you catch the "as shown before" part? We don't dismiss what makes these characters who they are unless stated in the op. Generally Superman doesn't kill so we don't assume he tries unless stated just like we don't assume the Sentry's issues aren't there since they have been there since day 1. Please read comics.

bbrem123
Originally posted by quanchi112
No, this is incorrect. Sentry always has mental issues plaguing him but it's more Sentry problem than a Void problem. Even when he fought the WW Hulk and unleashed himself he was still mentally weak. We don't ignore the major characteristics of a character just because you like them. This has been a part of him since the onset. I am not using one showing to paint the picture but many showings to address my points. Again this isn't an aberration.

I understand where you are coming from. This would not be going by the forum rules though. A mentally weak sentry is not a sentry at the best of his abilities. I know the character has many showings while being unstable but that doesnt change the fact that it is going against the rules. The unstable mind of the sentry is what make him able to be a member of the avengers. Sentry at the best of his abilities does not have any mental issues so saying he does is wrong, no matter how many unstable appearances he has. If the OP specifies otherwise unstable sentry is not in the picture here. Im not ignoring the major characteristic of the character. Im going by the forum rules nothing more.

bbrem123
Originally posted by quanchi112
We don't dismiss what makes these characters who they are unless stated in the op. Generally Superman doesn't kill so we don't assume he tries unless stated just like we don't assume the Sentry's issues aren't there since they have been there since day 1. Please read comics.

This example has nothing to do with the Sentry at all. Completely different when you talk about characteristic that are used in a forum battle.

So you think sentry with mental weakness is sentry at the best of his abilities? Because comics show otherwise.

bbrem123
This subject should definitely be cleared up by the mods. It would completely change my views on fight concerning the sentry.

Don Corleone
Originally posted by bbrem123
This subject should definitely be cleared up by the mods. It would completely change my views on fight concerning the sentry.

Yeah, serious debaters go by forum rules.

quanchi112
Originally posted by bbrem123
I understand where you are coming from. This would not be going by the forum rules though. A mentally weak sentry is not a sentry at the best of his abilities. I know the character has many showings while being unstable but that doesnt change the fact that it is going against the rules. The unstable mind of the sentry is what make him able to be a member of the avengers. Sentry at the best of his abilities does not have any mental issues so saying he does is wrong, no matter how many unstable appearances he has. If the OP specifies otherwise unstable sentry is not in the picture here. Im not ignoring the major characteristic of the character. Im going by the forum rules nothing more. You can't eliminate his mental issues entirely. I am not using his showings to where people simply talk to him and he goes screaming off as my only evidence but my point is you can't ignore his entire history either and focus on his highest showings.

Originally posted by bbrem123
This example has nothing to do with the Sentry at all. Completely different when you talk about characteristic that are used in a forum battle.

So you think sentry with mental weakness is sentry at the best of his abilities? Because comics show otherwise. No, it isn't. Sentry is nuts it's who he is.

Sentry's mental weakness is always still there whether you think he's at his best or not.

h1a8
Originally posted by bbrem123
This subject should definitely be cleared up by the mods. It would completely change my views on fight concerning the sentry. The forum rules are clear. Even Bada has emphasized it with Hulk.

But For people like Quanchi just argue as follows

1. Sentry with a very stable mental state...
2. Sentry with a very unstable mental state...

h1a8
Originally posted by quanchi112
You can't eliminate his mental issues entirely. I am not using his showings to where people simply talk to him and he goes screaming off as my only evidence but my point is you can't ignore his entire history either and focus on his highest showings.

No, it isn't. Sentry is nuts it's who he is.

Sentry's mental weakness is always still there whether you think he's at his best or not.

But at times he has shown little to no mental instability. When he fought terrax or Genis he was highly stable. Nice try at a strawman though.

quanchi112
Originally posted by h1a8
But at times he has shown little to no mental instability. When he fought terrax or Genis he was highly stable. Nice try at a strawman though. Yes, the mental issues were still there though they didn't come out. We don't change the character and pretend he doesn't have issues. You don't know enough about the Sentry to know either way. smile

Supermex
1. Surfer
2. Thor
3. Sentry
4. Genis

Enzeru
Originally posted by quanchi112
Yes, the mental issues were still there though they didn't come out. We don't change the character and pretend he doesn't have issues. You don't know enough about the Sentry to know either way. smile

I know more about the Sentry than all of you combined, so I think you should actually listen to me, when I say that's correct...

As he already said, when Sentry has his good moments, he was doing just fine and that's the main point. It was possible for Sentry to be a part of Marvel's superhero teams, because the writers exploited his mental issues. He had mental problems / was depowered for the sake of the story during World War Hulk. Without it, do you really expect WW Hulk to put up a fight against a Sentry, who doesn't show any mental instability during his fight with Photon and does more than just fine? I don't expect WW Hulk do do well in that fight.

The funny thing is ... There was not even one single encounter in the history of Sentry comics, where he was losing, because he was clearly overwhelmed by the enemy. Not even one single encounter.
Every time his track record was bad, you SAW him struggeling with himself and his issues. When he fought WW Hulk, he had problems. When he fought the Collective, he had problems, when he fought Ultron, and even there he was doing fine, but he had problems, but that doesn't mean that he is mentally unstable 24/7 ... He also had more than enough showings, where he was doing just fine, like for example where he owned Terrax, fought against Photon, Blue Marvel.

And then you had the instances, where he was totally-out-of-character-unstable, which was mainly written by Bendis, where he gets kills Morgana and ASKS NORMAN OSBORN IF KILLING IS A GOOD THING ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

h1a8
Originally posted by quanchi112
Yes, the mental issues were still there though they didn't come out. We don't change the character and pretend he doesn't have issues. You don't know enough about the Sentry to know either way. smile

You keep strawmaning the argument though. It's irrelevant if Sentry always had issues. No one is arguing that (although some would disagree). The fact is that those issues varied from comic to comic causing him to be more unstable in some comics and less in others. By default, we choose the Sentry that had minimal issues, like the one where he fought Terrax. This is because this is the Sentry that is going to fight at the best of his ability.

From how you argue, it seems that you don't read comics.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Enzeru
I know more about the Sentry than all of you combined, so I think you should actually listen to me, when I say that's correct...

As he already said, when Sentry has his good moments, he was doing just fine and that's the main point. It was possible for Sentry to be a part of Marvel's superhero teams, because the writers exploited his mental issues. He had mental problems / was depowered for the sake of the story during World War Hulk. Without it, do you really expect WW Hulk to put up a fight against a Sentry, who doesn't show any mental instability during his fight with Photon and does more than just fine? I don't expect WW Hulk do do well in that fight.

The funny thing is ... There was not even one single encounter in the history of Sentry comics, where he was losing, because he was clearly overwhelmed by the enemy. Not even one single encounter.
Every time his track record was bad, you SAW him struggeling with himself and his issues. When he fought WW Hulk, he had problems. When he fought the Collective, he had problems, when he fought Ultron, and even there he was doing fine, but he had problems, but that doesn't mean that he is mentally unstable 24/7 ... He also had more than enough showings, where he was doing just fine, like for example where he owned Terrax, fought against Photon, Blue Marvel.

And then you had the instances, where he was totally-out-of-character-unstable, which was mainly written by Bendis, where he gets kills Morgana and ASKS NORMAN OSBORN IF KILLING IS A GOOD THING ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! You don't even know what defending oneself means so you can't comprehend what is going on most of the time. I also don't think you know more about the Sentry either. You didn't know Doom defended himself so either you lied or were ignorant. Take your pick.

He wasn't depowered in WW Hulk he unleashed and even states he can hit the Hulk as hard as he wants. The intent was WW Hulk was on a level to take the punishment the Sentry could dish out. Yes, I do as well. The Sentry was still bfr'd in that fight. I've also seen the Sentry barely edge out the Blue Marvel without him unraveling due to mental issues even though they were still there. Not everyone brings them out that doesn't mean we pretend they aren't still within him.

I don't mean to say he's coming apart at the seems in every appearance but the same issues are always there it just depends on whether they come out or not. The issue is whether they do come out not that they aren't there. Just because he uses little effort to run Terrax off that doesn't mean he's not nuts. The entire Sentry series had him seeing a psychiatrist. He just dealt with Terrax easily is all. He was still nuts. That's the Sentry. Saying it doesn't exist at all is changing the character, entirely.

quanchi112
Originally posted by h1a8
You keep strawmaning the argument though. It's irrelevant if Sentry always had issues. No one is arguing that (although some would disagree). The fact is that those issues varied from comic to comic causing him to be more unstable in some comics and less in others. By default, we choose the Sentry that had minimal issues, like the one where he fought Terrax. This is because this is the Sentry that is going to fight at the best of his ability.

From how you argue, it seems that you don't read comics. The issues are always there and we can debate on who is taking him on and what the chances are they can survive long enough to bring them out. His head(mind) is his weakness. Sentry still had issues the entire arc but easily dealt with Terrax. He didn't have a clean mental bill of health. He was as nuts as he always has been. Try reading comics. smile

Enzeru
Oh Quanchi, don't you realize that everyone despises you..?

quanchi112
Originally posted by Enzeru
Oh Quanchi, don't you realize that everyone despises you..? Concession accepted.

Enzeru
Originally posted by quanchi112
Concession accepted.

Yes, I admit that you're the buffoon, the joker poster of this entire board.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Enzeru
Yes, I admit that you're the buffoon, the joker poster of this entire board. Personal attacks are a sign of someone who has lost the debate. I'm quite excellent at debating.

Enzeru
Originally posted by quanchi112
I'm quite excellent at debating.

You know exactly that's not true.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Enzeru
You know exactly that's not true. You can't even tell the difference between defending oneself and what that even means so who cares what you think.

Enzeru
Originally posted by quanchi112
You can't even tell the difference between defending oneself and what that even means so who cares what you think.

Once again you're being an enormous failbob :-|

quanchi112
Originally posted by Enzeru
Once again you're being an enormous failbob :-| So you're back to saying Doom didn't defend himself ?

Enzeru
Originally posted by quanchi112
So you're back to saying Doom didn't defend himself ?

I made my position perfectly clear in my posts.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Enzeru
I made my position perfectly clear in my posts. No, you just rambled on. Just answer the question were you wrong when you said Doom never defended himself ?

TheHulk
I can't believe I'm saying this but.....I actually agree with Quanchi... What the f**k?

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