Batman vs Captain America

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



relentless1
Ive been debating this one with a friend for the evening, I say Batman would win. And before all you Cap fanboys jump on here, representing your cap denominator let me just point out; Bats vs Cap can really be distilled down to three categories: Physicality, Fighting Skill, Gadgets; Cap wins Physicality for sure, he can bench 1200, Bats can press 1000; Cap is faster and more durable BUT Batman has more fighting skill; Cap knows about 12 martial arts while Batman has mastered 127, meaning that anything Cap can throw at Batman h2h will be countered. gadgets is also a no brainer for Batman because while Caps shield is very durable and quite versatile he doesnt have explosives, gas attack, projectiles, tazers etc like Batman does, more versatility in weaponry equals Batman finding a way around the shields defence. 2 out of 3 categories go to Batman. Its a helluva fight but Batman wins 6/10

iceman24567
What the donkey balls?

shadowknight
Actually Bats vs Cap can really be distilled down to 4 categories: Physicality, Fighting Skill, Gadgets and Smarts. Cap is faster in running speed not HTH as for Durability unless you take Batman out of his suiot it's a wash.

Mindset
Wow, I'm surprised no one else ever thought to make this thread.

Silent Master
Originally posted by relentless1
Batman vs Captain America

You could have just used the search feature, this thread has been done multiple times.

pym-ftw
Also cap can lift way more than the idiots at Death battle gave him credit fore.

BruceSkywalker
been done already lmao

Silent Master
Yep, Cap won smile

riv6672
I like this thread. Way better than the one or two Superman/Thor threads that are floating around. laughing out loud

On topic:
HtH too close to call. Cap has a more basic style but his strength and speed are way over Batman.

Standard gear, i call it even. Depends who gets in the first hit/sets the pace.

CadenceV2
First of Cap has as much fighting skill. in a fight against a foe who knew a crap ton of fighting moves, Cap states he is adept in every form of combat known to man.

However Iron Fist States his style is basic.

However again Black Panther who knows 100+ fighting styles states cap skill is adapting to whatever BP throws at him.

So the skill argument is Bull$hit to say the least. smile

Next is stats. Cap is more than 1200 pounds. He is two tons when at full performance. The Serum during the 1200 feat was Cap when the Serum was not as potent. His WW2 time frame Cap was lifting cars.

Speed wise Cap meh.... As fast at Batman. Durability again is meh as Cap is as durable as Batman wearing a Batsuit.

The biggest advantage of Bruce is his gadgets. He simply has more. Alot more! He has options, versatility, and thats what wins him the fight more than not.

So really in the end its raw versatility and not his fighting skill or stats that wins fights for Batman.

riv6672
I call bullshit on writers who dont do research, but thats just me.
Still you're pretty spot on.
Standard gear, if Cap uses the shield before Batman foes his gadgets, Cap's going to smash Batman. If Batman "draws" first, he can get the win.

CadenceV2
Originally posted by riv6672
I call bullshit on writers who dont do research, but thats just me.
Still you're pretty spot on.
Standard gear, if Cap uses the shield before Batman foes his gadgets, Cap's going to smash Batman. If Batman "draws" first, he can get the win.

Pretty much. I find Deathbattle complete crap when Cap threw his shield and Batman in the smoke caught it. Cap throwing his shield at its best has cut tank turrets off of tanks, destroyed semi trucks, and moved at super sonic speeds to out move a ballistic missile!!!

Batman in no way is catching a blood lusted shield throw lol.

riv6672
Haha, no he's not catching that.

golem370
Captain America has imo strength, speed, way more stamina , healing over Batman and has enough skill and experience to win, also Cap could suprise Bats with a returning shield to the head.

Deadline
Originally posted by riv6672

On topic:
HtH too close to call. Cap has a more basic style

Really whats this based on?


Originally posted by CadenceV2
First of Cap has as much fighting skill. in a fight against a foe who knew a crap ton of fighting moves, Cap states he is adept in every form of combat known to man.

As far as I'm aware that was before he went into suspended animation.

Originally posted by CadenceV2

The biggest advantage of Bruce is his gadgets. He simply has more. Alot more! He has options, versatility, and thats what wins him the fight more than not.

So really in the end its raw versatility and not his fighting skill or stats that wins fights for Batman.

How did Batman do against Deathstroke? Cap has fought people with versatility before not sure it gives Batman the win. Whats Batman gonna do with gas? The battle takes place in the open. Whats Batman gonna do with explosives? Doesnt Gambit have 'explosives'? What are his batarangs gonna do? Cap hasn't fought anybody throwing stuff at him before?

Originally posted by CadenceV2
Pretty much. I find Deathbattle complete crap when Cap threw his shield and Batman in the smoke caught it. Cap throwing his shield at its best has cut tank turrets off of tanks, destroyed semi trucks, and moved at super sonic speeds to out move a ballistic missile!!!

Batman in no way is catching a blood lusted shield throw lol.

I didn't see the match but I listened to some of his reasoning and he got stuff wrong. For examples this adept nonsense.

abhilegend
Originally posted by CadenceV2
First of Cap has as much fighting skill. in a fight against a foe who knew a crap ton of fighting moves, Cap states he is adept in every form of combat known to man.

However Iron Fist States his style is basic.

However again Black Panther who knows 100+ fighting styles states cap skill is adapting to whatever BP throws at him.

So the skill argument is Bull$hit to say the least. smile

Next is stats. Cap is more than 1200 pounds. He is two tons when at full performance. The Serum during the 1200 feat was Cap when the Serum was not as potent. His WW2 time frame Cap was lifting cars.

Speed wise Cap meh.... As fast at Batman. Durability again is meh as Cap is as durable as Batman wearing a Batsuit.

The biggest advantage of Bruce is his gadgets. He simply has more. Alot more! He has options, versatility, and thats what wins him the fight more than not.

So really in the end its raw versatility and not his fighting skill or stats that wins fights for Batman.
Batman IS more skilled than Cap. Its not really arguable.

Originally posted by Deadline
Really whats this based on? What do you mean? Danny himself said it.






Lots of people have claimed that. heck, Kobra has stated it.


How did Cap do against Taskmaster? We can play that game for all day long. KO cap? So? Really? C'mon. Like Hawkeye who beat him?



The fight was nonsense. But so is KMC Captain America.

GroggyGrunt
I agree that it's pretty much Batman's gadgets that make him a potential winner. In straight hth, I'd give it to Cap (though it'd definitely be one of his tougher fights), but when the toys are thrown in it gets iffy.

I'll say in an environment with shadows, Bats. Otherwise, Cap.

Deadline
Not sure if I can be bothered to get into a long debate but this is one reason why gadgets don't give Batman the win. Cap was fighting TM without his shield and was still holding is own. TM was using gadgets Cap doesn't have and still loses.

Originally posted by AlmightyKfish


Vs Captain America, he has Cap at his mercy until Cap uses some tech, admittedly, Cap doesn't have his shield in this fight-
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z259/almightykfish/Taskmaster%20Respect%20thread/th_Cap-2-1.jpg http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z259/almightykfish/Taskmaster%20Respect%20thread/th_Cap-2-2.jpg http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z259/almightykfish/Taskmaster%20Respect%20thread/th_Cap-2-3.jpg http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z259/almightykfish/Taskmaster%20Respect%20thread/th_Cap-2-4.jpg http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z259/almightykfish/Taskmaster%20Respect%20thread/th_Cap-2-5.jpg http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z259/almightykfish/Taskmaster%20Respect%20thread/th_Cap-2-6.jpg http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z259/almightykfish/Taskmaster%20Respect%20thread/th_Cap-2-7.jpg http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z259/almightykfish/Taskmaster%20Respect%20thread/th_Cap-2-8.jpg

.

I could also mention Caps fight with Bullseye. Bullseye had the advantage and Cap wasn't in his right mind but it ended in a stalemate.

abhilegend
Seriously? Did you even read the scans? And Bruce's gadgets have KOED Frankenstein, a superman level being in moments in DCnU. Taskmaster has nothing of that caliber. And Paladin KOED Cap with gas in Civil War pretty easily.

And as good as Bullseye is, he doesn't has Batman's gadgets.

Deadline
Originally posted by abhilegend
Seriously? Did you even read the scans?

I think you're beginning to waste my time if you somehow think those scans prove that Batman wins. If so explain to me what I missed.

Originally posted by abhilegend

And Bruce's gadgets have KOED Frankenstein, a superman level being in moments in DCnU. Taskmaster has nothing of that caliber.

Y'know something not too sure if Frankenstein is a superman level being. Anyway something tells me you might be missing out something Batman doesn't carry Superman level Koing gadgets as standard equipment. One shwoing doesn't prove that he does. In fact I've not seen one example of Batman using his gadgets effectively against skilled opponents. Also you're not telling me what gadget he used cos if it's an explosive Caps shield > Superman.

Originally posted by abhilegend

And Paladin KOED Cap with gas in Civil War pretty easily.

No he didn't Cap was holding his breath and pretending to be Koed. Also that was indoors, if it was outdoors it's going to be harder for it to work cos all Cap needs to do is hold his breath and move away from it.

Originally posted by abhilegend

And as good as Bullseye is, he doesn't has Batman's gadgets.

He doesn't need to Bullseye is more accurate and the fact that he doesn't have explosives and gas doesn't change anything. he's more dangerous with what he has.

No Batman is not more skilled in fact I could argue Cap is more skilled. You're probably basing that on the fact that Batman has said how many martial arts he's mastered, doesn't neccesarily prove anything. For starters Cap has mastered all martial arts.

DarkSaint85
Am just adding this here in terms of gadgets; its a quote I had for another thread. Anyways, DCnU Batman's gadgets.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Before or after he's incapacitated by:

Sonic grenades:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/2969788-detective_19_thegroup-014.jpg

Acid batarangs to the face (against Oglivy, who was amped on a new strain of Venom, ManBat serum and had Poison Ivy armour plating):
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/3022225-2013-05-01+07-30-34+-+detective+comics+20-013.jpg

Tasers to the face:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/3022402-2013-05-01+07-30-37+-+detective+comics+20-014.jpg

Sonic batarangs:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/12/120679/3533330-2013-03-13+07-50-47+-+batman+18-014.jpg

Foam pellets (as morals are still on):
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/2571043-batman_and_robin_v2_027__crypt_preist_cps_.jpg

Fire batarangs:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/3041982-batman+%282011-%29+020-026.jpg

Electric batarangs:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/3041979-batman+%282011-%29+020-023.jpg

Oh, plus tasers in his gauntlets which can shoot electricity:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/3041000-2013-05-08+07-37-00+-+batman+and+robin+%282011-%29+020-013.jpg

He could just use magnets and stick Wolvy to the floor:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/3526287-batman03_006.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/12/120679/3526288-batman03_007.jpg

He could just run up the walls/ceiling, and shoot stuff at Wolverine all day:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/12/120679/3534752-2013-06-12+07-28-01+-+batman+%282011-%29+021-011.jpg

Knockout gas:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/3540340-detectivecomics_3_thegroup_003.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/3540357-detectivecomics_3_thegroup_004.jpg
Then after all that, he still has his explosives.

Deadline
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Am just adding this here in terms of gadgets; its a quote I had for another thread. Anyways, DCnU Batman's gadgets.

So all of that's standard equipment? I don't think so somehow. In some of those cases it's fair to assume that's prep.

DarkSaint85
Well, he wasn't shown prepping for it; and when Batman preps, by god do comic writers want us to know it. The Suit of All Sorrows; the Hellbat armour - note how for example I didn't include the Sonic Gun he carried around when going up against the Man Bats.

When Batman preps for a specific opponents, writers usually go into nerdgasms over him, lovingly detailing everything he's strapping on. This was just him going into his belt and chucking stuff out.

Deadline
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Well, he wasn't shown prepping for it; and when Batman preps, by god do comic writers want us to know it. The Suit of All Sorrows; the Hellbat armour - note how for example I didn't include the Sonic Gun he carried around when going up against the Man Bats.

When Batman preps for a specific opponents, writers usually go into nerdgasms over him, lovingly detailing everything he's strapping on. This was just him going into his belt and chucking stuff out.

You sure about that cos this pretty much implies that he used prep.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/3022225-2013-05-01+07-30-34+-+detective+comics+20-013.jpg

When has Batman used any of those gadagets against skilled opponents. It pretty much seems to me standard equipment is batarangs, gas and explosives.

EDIT: Sometimes Batmans prep is simply him bringing stuff he has already made but isn't standard equipment.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Deadline
I think you're beginning to waste my time if you somehow think those scans prove that Batman wins. If so explain to me what I missed. I know you're wasting my time. But what the heck. I'm in a good mood atm. Cap was the one who used tech to beat Tasky. One on one Tasky beat Cap in their very first fight.



It was standard tazer. And he was carrying it around several times. But I see a "srank" comment right now.



Cap was KOED. Shang chi had to save them. And Batman has KOED people outdoors via gas too.



Yeah, I call bullshit.

I don't base that on "martial skills". I base that on how they have fought actual characters with skills. Find me a feat of Cap fighting someone like Karate Kid and call me back. Or fighting the abstract personification of every martial art that EVER existed for two issues straight and surviving.










Oh right, it doesn't counts for Batman.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Deadline
You sure about that cos this pretty much implies that he used prep.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/3022225-2013-05-01+07-30-34+-+detective+comics+20-013.jpg

When has Batman used any of those gadagets against skilled opponents. It pretty much seems to me standard equipment is batarangs, gas and explosives.

EDIT: Sometimes Batmans prep is simply him bringing stuff he has already made but isn't standard equipment.

No prep.

Earlier in the same issue, Oglivy had beaten the crap out of Batman, as he was expecting him to be human still. Penguin rescued him, and he went straight inside the house, hence in the scan you posted, he's still leaning against the doorframe. He didn't (IIRC) go to the Batmobile, or Batcave or whatever, load up on his tech, and come back to the Cobblepot mansion.

Not to mention, earlier in the same issue, Oglivy catches him by surprise by showcasing he's Venom'd up, with bark armour and Man Bat serum. So Batman didn't prepare for Oglivy being anything more than another human kingpin boss.

DarkSaint85
Incidentally, it's Detective Comics 20 if you are so inclined.

Deadline
Originally posted by abhilegend
I know you're wasting my time. But what the heck. I'm in a good mood atm. Cap was the one who used tech to beat Tasky.

*sigh* Cap was fighting TM wuth his barehands for most of the fight and still holding his own. All Cap did was hit him over the head with the shield, which is something he could use with the normal shield.

Originally posted by abhilegend

One on one Tasky beat Cap in their very first fight.


Actually I'm not so sure about that TM breifly stunned him then ran. I've seen people got knocked to the ground in comics and comeback.

Originally posted by abhilegend

It was standard tazer. And he was carrying it around several times. But I see a "srank" comment right now.


If it was a standarad tazer then why has he used tazers against weaker characters and then had to go back and make it more powerful to KO a much weaker character. It wasn't a standard taser and even if it was other showing cxontradict how powerful it is.

Originally posted by abhilegend

Cap was KOED. Shang chi had to save them. And Batman has KOED people outdoors via gas too.


He wasn't KOed read it again. Of course hes KOed people indoors that doesn't its going to work on Cap.

Originally posted by abhilegend

Yeah, I call bullshit.


You can if you like.

Originally posted by abhilegend

I don't base that on "martial skills". I base that on how they have fought actual characters with skills. Find me a feat of Cap fighting someone like Karate Kid and call me back. Or fighting the abstract personification of every martial art that EVER existed for two issues straight and surviving.










Oh right, it doesn't counts for Batman.

Thats all very inpressive but the fact of the matter we try to look at both characters entire showings and if were going to look at Caps as a whole they are much better. The problem is I've been reading a lot of Batman and Cap and Cap as a whole fights much more dangerous opponents on a more regular basis than Batman and has been doing it for longer.

Cap is more skilled.

Deadline
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
No prep.

Earlier in the same issue, Oglivy had beaten the crap out of Batman, as he was expecting him to be human still. Penguin rescued him, and he went straight inside the house, hence in the scan you posted, he's still leaning against the doorframe. He didn't (IIRC) go to the Batmobile, or Batcave or whatever, load up on his tech, and come back to the Cobblepot mansion.

Not to mention, earlier in the same issue, Oglivy catches him by surprise by showcasing he's Venom'd up, with bark armour and Man Bat serum. So Batman didn't prepare for Oglivy being anything more than another human kingpin boss.

Ok the problem is I've bene reading Batman DCnu from the beginning and I don't think I've seen any acid, or tazers. In fact there are lots of exampls of Batman getting the crap beaten out of him without using tazers.

In fact that the only issue ( annual) that I have with him using a tazer is against intelligent goriilas and in fact it didn't even work the first time so he had to go back and upgrade it.

This seems to be the problem. How do you determine standard equipment?

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Deadline
Ok the problem is I've bene reading Batman DCnu from the beginning and I don't think I've seen any acid, or tazers. In fact there are lots of exampls of Batman getting the crap beaten out of him without using tazers.

In fact that the only issue ( annual) that I have with him using a tazer is against intelligent goriilas and in fact it didn't even work the first time so he had to go back and upgrade it.

This seems to be the problem. How do you determine standard equipment?

Tasers -

Batman: Dark Knight #6 - he used a taser against Bane:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/3894616-batman+tdk+06+page19.jpg

Detective Comics #20 (you've already seen this).

Am sure there are others, but those come to mind. Also, he had them built into his gauntlets. I can look later...

Edit:

Some more:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/3903451-batman+and+robin+%282011-%29+-+ra%27s+al+ghul+032-007.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/3887336-detective+comics+%282011-%29+032-014.jpg

And you've already seen the Frankenstein one.

So yeah, it seems he's no stranger to using electrical attacks, whether short or long distance.

Deadline
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Tasers -

Batman: Dark Knight #6 - he used a taser against Bane:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/3894616-batman+tdk+06+page19.jpg

Detective Comics #20 (you've already seen this).

Am sure there are others, but those come to mind. Also, he had them built into his gauntlets. I can look later...

Edit:

Some more:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/3903451-batman+and+robin+%282011-%29+-+ra%27s+al+ghul+032-007.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/3887336-detective+comics+%282011-%29+032-014.jpg

And you've already seen the Frankenstein one.

So yeah, it seems he's no stranger to using electrical attacks, whether short or long distance.

Well if it is standard equipment Cap is losing. I don't wanna give Bats the win but I might have to.

Shabazz916
batman has all that equipment and yet got his back broke... but thats none of my business

Deadline
Originally posted by Shabazz916
batman has all that equipment and yet got his back broke... but thats none of my business

Yea I was gonna mention that and indirectly did. So it seems that even if that is stnadard equipment Batman loses due to CIS.

Shabazz916
i dnt think batman can beat captain america if all things are even... if the writer has no bias... captain america whoops batman's ass

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Shabazz916
batman has all that equipment and yet got his back broke... but thats none of my business

DCnU did? Scans?

DarkSaint85
I mean, I've been playing fair and only showing DCnU Bats.

But if we want to bring preboot Batman in, well, feel free to do so. I'll post scans of some of the stupid tech he pulled out. Specifically, Morrison's BatGod lol.

So you're right, it IS none of your business hehe.

But then, I only posted those scans to show how Bats has more tech than what Taskmaster was showing in those scans.

Shabazz916
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
DCnU did? Scans?

Bane... duh

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Shabazz916
Bane... duh

In the new 52?

Deadline
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
In the new 52?

No preNu52 Batman. This is the point I'm and he is making, he has been in millions of situations were he is in dire straits and not pulled any tazers and other stuff.

Batman hadn't been sleeping properly and was tired and still went up against Bane and was just using h2h skills.

Not only that we see him using an explosive earlier on in that arc but didn't use it against Bane, another incident during that arc he was in trouble against Amygadlia, still no tazers. This is why I'm having a hard time accepting it as standard equipment those showings are not the norm and if you're bringing in prerebbot Batman stuff thats even worse.

Supermex
I know it's been done like crazy this fight


Cap's speed edge is to much for Batman one on one.
Add Cap's strength to the mix on top of that speed.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Deadline
No preNu52 Batman. This is the point I'm and he is making, he has been in millions of situations were he is in dire straits and not pulled any tazers and other stuff.

Batman hadn't been sleeping properly and was tired and still went up against Bane and was just using h2h skills.

Not only that we see him using an explosive earlier on in that arc but didn't use it against Bane, another incident during that arc he was in trouble against Amygadlia, still no tazers. This is why I'm having a hard time accepting it as standard equipment those showings are not the norm and if you're bringing in prerebbot Batman stuff thats even worse.

That was my point.

Using preboot Batman is stupid.

Shabazz shouldn't have brought that in.

As we use current versions.

riv6672
Shab shouldnt do a lot of the things he does. wink

Also i see we were treated to creative interpretation of feats 101 by abhi. Always fun.

Deadline
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
That was my point.

Using preboot Batman is stupid.



It is? Why? It's not like there is any real difference between the two and I think Bane breaking Batman is still canon. It's not like every thing got retconned.

I don't get your logic.

riv6672
Current versions.
Its a good rule, because it keeps people from mixing and matching feats snd stats to suit them.
If a version other than current's wanted, its put out in the Op.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Deadline
It is? Why? It's not like there is any real difference between the two and I think Bane breaking Batman is still canon. It's not like every thing got retconned.

I don't get your logic.

My logic was, one is DCnU, where Bane was a markedly different beast, and the other is preboot. So different versions. Forum rules.

Deadline
Yea but the old Batman isn't a different version he's pretty much the same character. The reason why people make a fuss about pre-crisis is usually to do with Superman because pre-crisis Superman was much more powerful.

riv6672
Yes but many other characters were as well, and some were less. And some have done things others havent.

I just had to clarify in the Karate Kid Black Panther thread which KK i meant, as even though they're basically all the same some feats only apply to some versions.
You know as well as i in a debate folks will latch on to anything they can yo prop their choice up and knock the other choice down.
This (in theory) saves time.

Deadline
Originally posted by riv6672
Yes but many other characters were as well, and some were less. And some have done things others havent.

I just had to clarify in the Karate Kid Black Panther thread which KK i meant, as even though they're basically all the same some feats only apply to some versions.
You know as well as i in a debate folks will latch on to anything they can yo prop their choice up and knock the other choice down.
This (in theory) saves time.

Bro. I don't think that post addresses anything I said. The point is old Batman isn't different from the 'new' one.

Yea in the BP thread you could argue at least one of those guys was different. Not sure how I can make myself clearer.

Using your logic I could argue that Mark Waid's Cap was a different version to the other Captain Americas.

riv6672
Well, sorry i wasted our time then.

And Byrne Superman Vs Curt Swan Superman. No difference? Or different Supermen? wink

Deadline
Originally posted by riv6672
Well, sorry i wasted our time then.

And Byrne Superman Vs Curt Swan Superman. No difference? Or different Supermen? wink

I dunno maybe you are. I just don't see the point in getting rid of decades of feats for Batman on a principle that doesn't make any sense to me.

I don't know enough about Superman but you could argue maybe Byrne Superman is diifferent cos I heard he was in some ways weaker than the more 'modern' Superman. Well you tell me.

I could certainly argue that Remender punisher is different from other versions of Punisher because he was different (toughest version of Punisher ever written). Punisher is a bit strange cos he can fluctuate quite a bit depending on what the writers wants, hes kinda unique like that.

EDIT: You might be right though. I see people talking about new52 Superman but I suspect again because there is a significant difference between new52 Superman and old Superman that doesn't apply to Batman. One time I even argued you could use pre-crisis Batman feats... and that's because the character hasn't changed that much.

shadowknight
Originally posted by Shabazz916
batman has all that equipment and yet got his back broke... but thats none of my business Does context ring a bell. Bane planned a major crime wave along with releasing every major league villian from prison or Arkham that caused Batman to basically spent a month getting less 4 houes sleep a day. Plus he had spent 72 hrs before taking down Bane goons without sleep. Needless to say he was a shell of himself when he fought Bane and Bane broke his back.

iceman24567
Originally posted by Shabazz916
batman has all that equipment and yet got his back broke... but thats none of my business laughing

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Deadline
Well if it is standard equipment Cap is losing. I don't wanna give Bats the win but I might have to.

Lol.

StiltmanFTW
I love you. Great find thumb up

DarkSaint85
Now, I guess we can use this thread with Alberto's stips, and continue our fruitful discussion.





And for Smurph:

AlbertoJohnAvil
Cap is considered the greatest combat vet in history he is faster more skilled more durable and way more experienced he is a true combat Guinness he masters forms in days better than people who have studied them for years he masters in weapon he uses in seconds

https://i.postimg.cc/PpZptBnM/aat.jpg

Tech can make it a problem but Cap is a extraordinary strategist also...

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
Cap is considered the greatest combat vet in history he is faster more skilled more durable and way more experienced he is a true combat Guinness he masters forms in days better than people who have studied them for years he masters in weapon he uses in seconds

https://i.postimg.cc/PpZptBnM/aat.jpg

Tech can make it a problem but Cap is a extraordinary strategist also...

How will a strategist strategise out of a mass AoE blackout bomb?

Note in my tooth scan, even when the trained soldiers switched to thermal vision, they still couldn't see Batman. Who could see them just fine.

Cap doesn't even have that luxury of thermal vision. And if anyone says he uses his hearing, well.....sonics.

Moreover, being considered ANYTHING is not proof. Batman is considered the most dangerous man on Earth....that doesn't give him the automatic win.

AlbertoJohnAvil
considering cap can almost instantly adapt to any style or situation i guess i cant blame you he has decades of constant combat experiance bats is not going to throw anything at him he has not seen before

DarkSaint85
So counter an AoE smoke bomb or AoE flashbang.

AlbertoJohnAvil
yes adapt to any situation do you have any clue how much crazy tech he faced against hydra during the war let alone during his more modern time against the Avengers and why are you acting like he has no experience with people like Batman people like black panther or moon knight really

you using basic gadgets he has defeated a 100 times in comics because under this circumstance or that circumstance they were effective that's going to decide it really

DarkSaint85
So counter it.

What would Cap do when he can't see, and a cable line goes round him, then foam and ice?

Edit: and bring some scans to back it up showing Cap actually doing it. That's how we debate on KMC.

AlbertoJohnAvil
cap has taken down entire teams of cape killers all equipped with tech designed to take down superhumans and he does it casually while holding back

https://i.postimg.cc/cKk0J8gm/pc.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/CnYPTch6/kbo.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/LJrGQB1G/3rd.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/R601c20m/3yd.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/4nDtdYps/busl.jpg


cap completely outclasses beast someone much faster and more agile then Bruce and at least twice as strong as bane

https://i.postimg.cc/v4Q4gfTF/rlf.jpg

really ice ok fine give me a few minutes to find it lol

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
cap has taken down entire teams of cape killers all equipped with tech designed to take down superhumans and he does it casually while holding back

https://i.postimg.cc/cKk0J8gm/pc.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/CnYPTch6/kbo.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/LJrGQB1G/3rd.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/R601c20m/3yd.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/4nDtdYps/busl.jpg


cap completely outclasses beast someone much faster and more agile then Bruce and at least twice as strong as bane

https://i.postimg.cc/v4Q4gfTF/rlf.jpg

really ice ok fine give me a few minutes to find it lol

So nothing there that counters him unable to see, lol. Try harder.

Lmao at using Beast, though. Note he's got his shield there too - I SPECIFICALLY had magnets that removed his shield smile

AlbertoJohnAvil
ok first for it to have any effect you had better completely freeze him solid which would work on about anybody just turning the room cold is going to do nothing

https://i.postimg.cc/SJXGJ0Xb/uby.jpg

magnetizing something with his Batarang is not disarming anything and now you trying to make it pitch black or something where does it say the fight is happening in darkness quit adding variables trying to find an edge

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
ok first for it to have any effect you had better completely freeze him solid which would work on about anybody just turning the room cold is going to do nothing

Lol what?

FIRST it's the SMOKE bomb:
https://i.postimg.cc/HVJr6CYh/detectivecomics937-batmanescapeartist.jpg

Or here:

https://i.postimg.cc/Sjx2zMwq/batmaneternal30-blacksmoke1.jpg

THEN its the net AND grapple line.

THEN its the foam AND ice.

ALL of it, on top of each other.



No......are you retarded?

My point is that Batman makes it difficult/impossible to see. See scans above. Even in daylight, smoke still works. Note how Batman is even surrounded by brightlights, lol. If not, I guess you ignored my flashbangs:
https://i.postimg.cc/mz8P5L10/batmantwoface27-bootflashbangs.jpg

BTW: Flashbangs work in daylight, lol.

Here's another time he has used them(that's Superman, btw):
https://i.postimg.cc/hh9nGM0h/supermanamericanalien4-batmanvclarkkent5.jpg

As for the magnets, well, did you not put them in the city? Are you telling me there's no metal anywhere in this city for the shield to stick to, even for a split second?

So yeah. Still nothing to counter how a blinded Cap is targeting one of the stealthiest characters in comics, let alone dodging his attacks.

Deadline
Originally posted by Deadline
Well if it is standard equipment Cap is losing. I don't wanna give Bats the win but I might have to.

You do realise that the post also implies that I think Cap could still win right? I don't like it when you try twist things. It also shows I'm pretty open minded. But for some reason it's a win for you.

MrMind
lvs68OKOquM

DarkSaint85
This is Batman, WITHOUT using smoke or flashbangs, or any tech, doing his stealth act. Cap wouldn't even find him.

Despite being shot in the back, he disappears from some goons and kidnaps Two Face. IN BROAD DAYLIGHT. WHILST THEY'RE LOOKING AT HIM:
https://i.postimg.cc/hf9rJQJS/allstarbatman1-batman2facetallgrassfield2.jpg

Yah, but those are some no name goons.

How about...Azrael? WHILST AZRAEL IS LOOKING AND TALKING STRAIGHT AT HIM:
https://i.postimg.cc/JGJTbdFC/batstealth-azreal27.jpg

Nah. How about Gotham AND Gotham Girl, both of whom are looking at him, and talking at him, and are using their Ultra Vision?
https://i.postimg.cc/qhRbyJP1/batman2-batmangothamstealth4.jpg
.....
https://i.postimg.cc/0zYBqHG0/batman2-batmangothamstealth5.jpg

Nah. Gotham and Gotham Girl are nobodies.

How about hiding from the ENTIRE JLA for an hour?
https://i.postimg.cc/kRSyvBfv/jla1-batjlastealth1.jpg

Nah. How about MMH AND Superman, WHILST they're looking at him, IN BROAD DAYLIGHT (also, Aquaman, lol)?
https://i.postimg.cc/47q5czb3/jlmidsummernightmare3-batmilitarystealth2.jpg

Nah. HOW ABOUT Superman, WW, Zauriel, and THE FRIGGING SPECTRE, lol, in broad daylight?
https://i.postimg.cc/k6BsDjSZ/spectre24-batmagicstealth6.jpg
.........
https://i.postimg.cc/DWC5vVSL/spectre24-batmagicstealth7.jpg

He literally sneaks up behind them.

And this is all without smoke or blackout bombs or flashbangs. Just Batsy, sneaky sneaky. In some cases, in broad daylight, in front of people.

Supermutant
Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
cap completely outclasses beast someone much faster and more agile then Bruce and at least twice as strong as bane

https://i.postimg.cc/v4Q4gfTF/rlf.jpg


no Beast is not twice as strong as Bane, lol

Deadline
Originally posted by MrMind
lvs68OKOquM

lol yea.

MrMind
Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil

beast at least twice as strong as bane


evidence?

AlbertoJohnAvil
Originally posted by DarkSaint85


Lol what?

FIRST it's the SMOKE bomb:
https://i.postimg.cc/HVJr6CYh/detectivecomics937-batmanescapeartist.jpg

Or here:

https://i.postimg.cc/Sjx2zMwq/batmaneternal30-blacksmoke1.jpg

THEN its the net AND grapple line.

THEN its the foam AND ice.

ALL of it, on top of each other.



No......are you retarded?

My point is that Batman makes it difficult/impossible to see. See scans above. Even in daylight, smoke still works. Note how Batman is even surrounded by brightlights, lol. If not, I guess you ignored my flashbangs:
https://i.postimg.cc/mz8P5L10/batmantwoface27-bootflashbangs.jpg

BTW: Flashbangs work in daylight, lol.

Here's another time he has used them(that's Superman, btw):
https://i.postimg.cc/hh9nGM0h/supermanamericanalien4-batmanvclarkkent5.jpg

As for the magnets, well, did you not put them in the city? Are you telling me there's no metal anywhere in this city for the shield to stick to, even for a split second?

So yeah. Still nothing to counter how a blinded Cap is targeting one of the stealthiest characters in comics, let alone dodging his attacks.

ok firstly thats an ambush tactic not a straight battle tactic and its not like cap has not dealt with flash bangs and smoke like a thousand times and second where does this say the battle is in the city? and third even if it was you would have to establish his batarangs created enough of a magnetic force to be able to pull it away from him which you haven't not all magnets are created equal

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
ok firstly thats an ambush tactic not a straight battle tactic and its not like cap has not dealt with flash bangs and smoke like a thousand times and second where does this say the battle is in the city? and third even if it was you would have to establish his batarangs created enough of a magnetic force to be able to pull it away from him which you haven't not all magnets are created equal

I really do think you are retarded, lol.

Firstly, I have been asking - again and again - for you to back your claims up with scans. Where are these scans of Cap dealing with smoke so thick, even thermal vision is useless? Of MULTIPLE flashbangs? Of BOTH smoke AND flashbangs TOGETHER?

Moreover, are you questioning Batman - the guy who is all about stealth and ambush - using ambush tactics? Lol. Do you read comics?

Secondly, read my post in this thread:

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Now, I guess we can use this thread with Alberto's stips, and continue our fruitful discussion.


That was my post starting off this discussion. I even made reference to it in the post YOU just replied to, lol ('did you not put them in the city?')

These are YOUR stips:


I then followed up with MULTIPLE scans of Batman disappearing in broad daylight from view, even when people are staring right at him.

Thirdly, I posted scans of an entire group of Rocket Reds being pulled by a single - ONE - magnetic Batarang.

Here is a tiny little pellet that he used against an entire group of men. One pellet. It's not even bigger than a coin.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/3526287-batman03_006.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/12/120679/3526288-batman03_007.jpg

You're right, not all magnets are created equal. Batman's magnets are incredible.

That's assuming the shield is thrown. If it is NOT thrown, then he just gets grapple lined up. He can't dodge the cable, as he cannot see where it is coming from, thanks to the smoke etc (as you have provided ZERO scans of Cap doing so).

He cannot break the cable, as it has a 15-ton break limit, and Cap does not have that strength level - certainly not his side deltoids. As you have provided ZERO scans of Cap doing so.

I have provided MULTIPLE scans of everything I have claimed.

cdtm
Not to take.away from an epic beatdown, but:

Does this mean he ripped out a perfectly good tooth, to put gas pellets in it?

AlbertoJohnAvil
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I really do think you are retarded, lol.

Firstly, I have been asking - again and again - for you to back your claims up with scans. Where are these scans of Cap dealing with smoke so thick, even thermal vision is useless? Of MULTIPLE flashbangs? Of BOTH smoke AND flashbangs TOGETHER?

Moreover, are you questioning Batman - the guy who is all about stealth and ambush - using ambush tactics? Lol. Do you read comics?

Secondly, read my post in this thread:



That was my post starting off this discussion. I even made reference to it in the post YOU just replied to, lol ('did you not put them in the city?')

These are YOUR stips:


I then followed up with MULTIPLE scans of Batman disappearing in broad daylight from view, even when people are staring right at him.

Thirdly, I posted scans of an entire group of Rocket Reds being pulled by a single - ONE - magnetic Batarang.

Here is a tiny little pellet that he used against an entire group of men. One pellet. It's not even bigger than a coin.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/3526287-batman03_006.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/12/120679/3526288-batman03_007.jpg

You're right, not all magnets are created equal. Batman's magnets are incredible.

That's assuming the shield is thrown. If it is NOT thrown, then he just gets grapple lined up. He can't dodge the cable, as he cannot see where it is coming from, thanks to the smoke etc (as you have provided ZERO scans of Cap doing so).

He cannot break the cable, as it has a 15-ton break limit, and Cap does not have that strength level - certainly not his side deltoids. As you have provided ZERO scans of Cap doing so.

I have provided MULTIPLE scans of everything I have claimed.

what claim do you want evidence for the only ones i haven't shown scans for is common sense ones as far as you backing up everything with scans bullshit you will show a scan then apply twice as much headcanon to it thats not proving anything feel free to show me batman disappearing right before a skilled fighters eyes in the middle of battle feel free to show me bats disarming anybody on caps physical level with a magnet

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by cdtm
Not to take.away from an epic beatdown, but:

Does this mean he ripped out a perfectly good tooth, to put gas pellets in it?

Yup.

He's also, you know, just in case, because Batman - added acid pellets under his skin. Acid strong enough to dissolve tungsten alloy:

http://i.imgur.com/zbuFykW.jpg

Just because.

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
what claim do you want evidence for the only ones i haven't shown scans for is common sense ones as far as you backing up everything with scans bullshit you will show a scan then apply twice as much headcanon to it thats not proving anything feel free to show me batman disappearing right before a skilled fighters eyes in the middle of battle feel free to show me bats disarming anybody on caps physical level with a magnet

Your claim that Cap can detect Batman through smoke and flashbangs.

Smoke that is so thick, even thermal vision is clouded. PLUS flashbangs.

So prove it.

AND THEN, when you have proven that, prove that he can detect Batman, a guy who can disappear from Superman AND Martian Manhunter, right in front of them, in broad daylight. He disappeared from Gotham and Gotham Girl, despite them having Ultra Vision, right in front of them. He snuck up on the SPECTRE, lol.

Cap does NOT have any senses better than Superman, Martian Manhunter, Wonder Woman, Spectre etc combined, lol. But if you can prove it, do so.

So three things for you to prove:

1. That Cap can see through thick smoke and flashbangs. Smoke has to be so thick, thermal vision is useless.
2. That he can then detect Batman, who is stealthy enough to - without ANY gadgets - sneak past the Spectre etc
3. AFTER all this, that Cap can break 15-ton cables with his deltoids.

Faceless808
What the f**k? wow

AlbertoJohnAvil
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yup.

He's also, you know, just in case, because Batman - added acid pellets under his skin. Acid strong enough to dissolve tungsten alloy:

http://i.imgur.com/zbuFykW.jpg

Just because.



Your claim that Cap can detect Batman through smoke and flashbangs.

Smoke that is so thick, even thermal vision is clouded. PLUS flashbangs.

So prove it.

AND THEN, when you have proven that, prove that he can detect Batman, a guy who can disappear from Superman AND Martian Manhunter, right in front of them, in broad daylight. He disappeared from Gotham and Gotham Girl, despite them having Ultra Vision, right in front of them. He snuck up on the SPECTRE, lol.

Cap does NOT have any senses better than Superman, Martian Manhunter, Wonder Woman, Spectre etc combined, lol. But if you can prove it, do so.

So three things for you to prove:

1. That Cap can see through thick smoke and flashbangs. Smoke has to be so thick, thermal vision is useless.
2. That he can then detect Batman, who is stealthy enough to - without ANY gadgets - sneak past the Spectre etc
3. AFTER all this, that Cap can break 15-ton cables with his deltoids.

i never claimed he could detect him i said he would beat his ass before he ever got the chance its stupid argument oh he is going to beat him with some smoke grenades and flashbangs not like he has been a soldier for years not like he has never dealt with it before or anything give me a break thats the best you can come up with i guess smoke screens and flash bangs i guess thats his kryptonite what happens next batman swoops in and karate chops him in the neck?
https://i.postimg.cc/Zvk4br9d/pil.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/DSzkKCCN/fva.jpg


tell you what show me batman ever beating anybody anywhere near caps level with some smoke grenades and flashbangs lmao

https://i.postimg.cc/34jYwk2f/aos.jpg

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
i never claimed he could detect him i said he would beat his ass before he ever got the chance its stupid argument oh he is going to beat him with some smoke grenades and flashbangs not like he has been a soldier for years not like he has never dealt with it before or anything give me a break thats the best you can come up with i guess smoke screens and flash bangs i guess thats his kryptonite what happens next batman swoops in and karate chops him in the neck?
https://i.postimg.cc/Zvk4br9d/pil.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/DSzkKCCN/fva.jpg


tell you what show me batman ever beating anybody anywhere near caps level with some smoke grenades and flashbangs lmao

https://i.postimg.cc/34jYwk2f/aos.jpg

Oh sweet baby Jesus.

Did you just post Ultimate Cap scans for 616 Cap?

AlbertoJohnAvil
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Oh sweet baby Jesus.

Did you just post Ultimate Cap scans for 616 Cap?

the only ultimate cap scan i used is just showing basic soldier equipment which was the flashbang scans and did you try to call civil war ultimate cap

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
the only ultimate cap scan i used is just showing basic soldier equipment which was the flashbang scans and did you try to call civil war ultimate cap

I didn't say they were all Ultimate.....

So you have nothing, even though I summarised it nicely in three points, lol.

AlbertoJohnAvil
i was showing that to show basic equipment for soldiers, its not a feat he tells someone to throw a flashbang

DarkSaint85
......And?

I didn't ask for proof of what soldiers carried in Ultimate Marvel, lol.

I asked for smoke and flashbangs together, of a level comparable to what Batman carries. Batman, who's able to disappear from people as they are speaking to him, able to sneak past the Spectre etc. WITHOUT tech, and who now uses tech. Plus showings against his other toys, don't care about what Taskmaster or whatever have ised, it needs to be similar and comparable to what Bats brings.

So far you have .....nothing, lol. And you challenged me to a BZ in PMs????

AlbertoJohnAvil
the point of the scan is to show common sense soldiers deal with things like flashbangs and smoke grenades constently

you should have been working for the government when they were talking about needing to remove cap but could not figure out how you should have been there to tell them just throw some smoke bombs and flashbangs at him that will do the trick

https://i.postimg.cc/JyQ38qGs/PBLO.jpg

DarkSaint85
So you have zero scans of 616 Cap. Thanks.

I mean, common sense, right? It should be easy to find. Especially with your 30years of Marvel comic reading experience.

You forget, it's smoke thick enough that even top secret military grade thermal vision was unable to see through it.

But that's just the setup. Once Cap is blinded, THEN Batman can spam his toys.

AlbertoJohnAvil
he has been completely blinded before and still taken out an armed soldier trying to kill him im sure he can handle low visibility for a few seconds lmao

https://i.postimg.cc/0MjMz6Yf/shao.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/QVR9MdHQ/bua.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/ftVywGsq/5ba.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/NKQ0y9YH/4usa.jpg

DarkSaint85
LMAO your scans show the guy clocking Cap with a club.

A few seconds is all that's needed. Now Cap is tied up with cables. GG.

AlbertoJohnAvil
wow yeah he was completely blind for an extended period and still tanked a steel club from a trained hitman he even later was able to crack 2 even more skilled assassins with his shield because his senses were so sharp he could tell where he was even without his eyes but your claiming just limiting his sight for a second or 2 is enough for Batman to beat him sure thing

https://i.postimg.cc/H8nddXCw/pgll.jpg


he can counter a flame thrower but not a cable sure thing that makes sense

https://i.postimg.cc/21QRp2Zp/shod.jpg

DarkSaint85
Well post showings of him breaking out of 15ton cables with his side deltoids..... because you still haven't shown anything remotely relevant lol.

AlbertoJohnAvil
i am claiming his senses are good enough to tell where Batman is so he can avoid cables for a second or which i have proven so he stands to reason he can avoid cables being fired at him considering he thinks faster then even bullets so in review you have claimed a ridiculous and unreasonable scenario without providing any proof that he can pull it off in the middle of a physical confrontation with someone of caps level but i still humoured you and provided a reasonable way backed by evidence that cap could avoid it your welcome

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Oh sweet baby Jesus.

Did you just post Ultimate Cap scans for 616 Cap?

Cap is Cap.

haermm

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
i am claiming his senses are good enough to tell where Batman is so he can avoid cables for a second or which i have proven so he stands to reason he can avoid cables being fired at him considering he thinks faster then even bullets so in review you have claimed a ridiculous and unreasonable scenario without providing any proof that he can pull it off in the middle of a physical confrontation with someone of caps level but i still humoured you and provided a reasonable way backed by evidence that cap could avoid it your welcome

His senses weren't good enough to avoid a common criminal with a stick, lol.

Batman is stealthy enough to sneak up against the Spectre, WW, Zauriel and Superman. In broad daylight.

Lol.

You've proven...if anything, you've helped me.

AlbertoJohnAvil
his senses were good enough to pinpoint his location even with 0 visibility which is more than enough to reasonably assume he can avoid bats throwing a rope around him for a second or 2 especially considering bats would have the same low visibility which you would see if you were not trying to hold on for dear life to this ridiculous scenario that you did not even think all the way through i mean ok even if he grapple hooked him now he is a tug of war situation with somebody far stronger then him and as soon as he loosens his grip it would unravel lol

StiltmanFTW
You know nothing about Bruce's mask.

darthgoober
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I really do think you are retarded, lol.

Firstly, I have been asking - again and again - for you to back your claims up with scans. Where are these scans of Cap dealing with smoke so thick, even thermal vision is useless? Of MULTIPLE flashbangs? Of BOTH smoke AND flashbangs TOGETHER?

Moreover, are you questioning Batman - the guy who is all about stealth and ambush - using ambush tactics? Lol. Do you read comics?

Secondly, read my post in this thread:



That was my post starting off this discussion. I even made reference to it in the post YOU just replied to, lol ('did you not put them in the city?')

These are YOUR stips:


I then followed up with MULTIPLE scans of Batman disappearing in broad daylight from view, even when people are staring right at him.

Thirdly, I posted scans of an entire group of Rocket Reds being pulled by a single - ONE - magnetic Batarang.

Here is a tiny little pellet that he used against an entire group of men. One pellet. It's not even bigger than a coin.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/3526287-batman03_006.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/12/120679/3526288-batman03_007.jpg

You're right, not all magnets are created equal. Batman's magnets are incredible.

That's assuming the shield is thrown. If it is NOT thrown, then he just gets grapple lined up. He can't dodge the cable, as he cannot see where it is coming from, thanks to the smoke etc (as you have provided ZERO scans of Cap doing so).

He cannot break the cable, as it has a 15-ton break limit, and Cap does not have that strength level - certainly not his side deltoids. As you have provided ZERO scans of Cap doing so.

I have provided MULTIPLE scans of everything I have claimed.
It's questionable as to whether or not magnets would work against Cap's shield. Back in the day even magneto was unable to affect it due to the shield's unique properties. He has since affected it, but I think that he did it sometime after one of Mag's power ups. I'm not outright saying that the magnet WOULDN'T work, just that it's questionable.

AlbertoJohnAvil
I mean let's think this through cap can think faster than bullets and his senses are good enough to pick out batmans location so i would assume they would be able to pick up bats shooting his grappling gun i think that is a reasonable assumption so why would he not just dive out of the way?

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
his senses were good enough to pinpoint his location even with 0 visibility which is more than enough to reasonably assume he can avoid bats throwing a rope around him for a second or 2 especially considering bats would have the same low visibility which you would see if you were not trying to hold on for dear life to this ridiculous scenario that you did not even think all the way through i mean ok even if he grapple hooked him now he is a tug of war situation with somebody far stronger then him and as soon as he loosens his grip it would unravel lol

Erm. No. See my scans. He wrapped it round the robot and pinned him.

Also......his cowl gives him super senses, lol.

I did think it all the way through, lol. Note how in my scan, even though the soldiers were unable to see him, he still attacked them and used batarangs.

Did you even look at my scans?

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
I mean let's think this through cap can think faster than bullets and his senses are good enough to pick out batmans location so i would assume they would be able to pick up bats shooting his grappling gun i think that is a reasonable assumption so why would he not just dive out of the way?

Cap'ss senses are NOT better than Superman's, or the Spectre, or WW, or Martian Manhunter.

All people he has snuck past and disappeared from.

Think.

Edit: wanna add, with those people I've just named, he didn't use his smoke or flashbangs. And was in broad daylight. And in some cases, was actually in front of them when he disappeared.

Yet now, a blinded Cap is going to do so, when the only scan we have of him has him unable to avoid a common Mook with a stick.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by darthgoober
It's questionable as to whether or not magnets would work against Cap's shield. Back in the day even magneto was unable to affect it due to the shield's unique properties. He has since affected it, but I think that he did it sometime after one of Mag's power ups. I'm not outright saying that the magnet WOULDN'T work, just that it's questionable.

Correct, Steve's shield was immune to his powers in X-Men vs Avengers mini.

DarkSaint85
thumb up back in the day, though, I thought Mags COULD affect it:

https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1600/1*VY98NY23GnJRqZKK2CY-_w.jpeg

StiltmanFTW
Yes.

First time, he succeeded. It became immune much later.

Goober doesn't know his Cap, smh.

darthgoober
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Yes.

First time, he succeeded. It became immune much later.

Goober doesn't know his Cap, smh.
They've had multiple encounters. I'm in no way denying that he hasn't failed more recently, but I would swear that it happened way back when to. I remember coming across the incident while I was working on an updated cap respect thread years ago, and I'm fairly sure my hard drive that I was saving shit on burned out before I got to the most recent Avengers vs X-Men series.

StiltmanFTW
https://tinyurl.com/yxpzedxb

darthgoober
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
https://tinyurl.com/yxpzedxb
I was so pissed about that... I already had thousands of scans set aside for that thread when the external died. I thought about starting over from scratch but I was honestly already getting sick of reading Cap comics when it happened... that f*cker has SO many more appearances than I realized when I first started it. I knew going in there was a lot, but I was reading them for several hours a day for well over a month. I got to the point that I was just skimming for feats towards the end so I just wasn't up to going all the way back to the 40s again.

Deadline
Magneto being able to move Caps shield doesn't neccesarily mean somebody else can use magnets to move his shield. Magneto can move all sorts of things because he can alter the magnetic fields around anything to move it. For example I think he lifted a bunch of rocks under Hercules before.

Also the shield maybe able to absorb electricity, it absorbed lightning from Thors hammer.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by darthgoober
I was so pissed about that... I already had thousands of scans set aside for that thread when the external died. I thought about starting over from scratch but I was honestly already getting sick of reading Cap comics when it happened... that f*cker has SO many more appearances than I realized when I first started it. I knew going in there was a lot, but I was reading them for several hours a day for well over a month. I got to the point that I was just skimming for feats towards the end so I just wasn't up to going all the way back to the 40s again.

I hear ya. One can eventually get sick of it, yes.

You got me wrong, though. I was saying the shield was shown as being immune in X-Men vs. Avengers, not AvX. Two different comics.

And yeah, tech and image hosting sites die a lot, that's why you always need more backups. Virtual drives, for example.

leonidas
the magneto thing has always been a bit confusing. he def couldn't affect it early on, but in an early avengers he did affect. then later on again (new mutants) he was shown unable to control it again.

i think it really comes down to writer's choice. /shrug

darthgoober
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
I hear ya. One can eventually get sick of it, yes.

You got me wrong, though. I was saying the shield was shown as being immune in X-Men vs. Avengers, not AvX. Two different comics.

And yeah, tech and image hosting sites die a lot, that's why you always need more backups. Virtual drives, for example.
Oh you mean the one from the 80s? That makes sense. At this point I remember more about what I was thinking about the stuff I was reading than I do the stuff itself. My brain was basically fried by the time everything f*cked up.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Deadline
Magneto being able to move Caps shield doesn't neccesarily mean somebody else can use magnets to move his shield. Magneto can move all sorts of things because he can alter the magnetic fields around anything to move it. For example I think he lifted a bunch of rocks under Hercules before.

Also the shield maybe able to absorb electricity, it absorbed lightning from Thors hammer.

But as you said, he would hold on to it.

My point was that Bats could cover his tracks. Use his sneakiness. And sneak attack Cap with something like his grapnel line. I haven't seen anything saying he can dodge anything when blinded (Alberto's only 'proof' was using Ultimate Cap, lol, and a random mook clubbing Cap).

Then when Cap is immobilised, either win (due to incapacitation) or continue with his toys.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by leonidas
the magneto thing has always been a bit confusing. he def couldn't affect it early on, but in an early avengers he did affect. then later on again (new mutants) he was shown unable to control it again.

i think it really comes down to writer's choice. /shrug

Do you have the New Mutants scan?

darthgoober
Originally posted by leonidas
the magneto thing has always been a bit confusing. he def couldn't affect it early on, but in an early avengers he did affect. then later on again (new mutants) he was shown unable to control it again.

i think it really comes down to writer's choice. /shrug
Yeah that's why I said it was uncertain whether or not the magnetic batarang would work. Shield's one of the biggest plot devices in comics.

DarkSaint85
This one:
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-8a23a4b511cc34637552a9a0972cb010.webp

I do know a BIT about Cap thumb up

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by darthgoober
Oh you mean the one from the 80s? That makes sense. At this point I remember more about what I was thinking about the stuff I was reading than I do the stuff itself. My brain was basically fried by the time everything f*cked up.

The one from 1987, yes. Very good read, btw (unlike AvX, which resulted in embarrassing the shit out of mutants and little more).

https://tinyurl.com/y56832yo

edit: DS beat me to it.

Deadline
That's exactly the issue I was thinking of but for different reasons.

DarkSaint85
This was my quote, btw:



As Deadline posits, the master strategist will see that Batman has a utility belt, so will assume he has toys with him - and therefore, would not throw his shield.

Batman will try batarangs, and they will 'CLAANNG' off his shield. The World's Greatest Detective will...deduce its metal. Attempt magnets. Fail/Pass.

If Pass, then Cap has no shield.

Smoke/Flashbangs, Grapnel/Nets/Foam/Ice. Batman wins.

If Fail, Smoke/Flashbangs, Grapnel/Nets/Foam/Ice. Batman wins.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
the master strategist will see that Batman has a utility belt, so will assume he has toys with him

Big ass belts with dozens of pockets in Marvel are quite common, yet they're just for show.

Steve needs to guess right from the start that Batsie is not like the guys he worked with or fought against.

Deadline
However I did state that if he did throw it it would be for a very good reason in order to set Bats up for something decisive. I'm not ruling out the possibility of him throwing it completely, but yeah I think he'll hold onto it.

When Cap fought Bullseye he held onto his shield, obvoulsy because Bullseye had the range advantage it made no sense to throw the shield at him.

By the way he doesn't even need to see the ultility belt, the armoured cowl is enough. Or you know he's never seen this guy before, Cap is obviously going to wonder if he has weapons.

darthgoober
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Big ass belts with dozens of pockets in Marvel are quite common, yet they're just for show.

Steve needs to guess right from the start that Batsie is not like the guys he worked with or fought against.
Not really, as soon as Bats actually pulled something like a batarang out of one of the pouches he'd know Bat's pouches were functional. And he's not going to open against an unknown opponent by going all out offensively, Cap's more of a defensive fighter(thus, the shield). That's not to say that he'd go the whole match without throwing it at some point, but I doubt he'd risk it until he gets some kind of sense of his opponent. It might be different if they were in an enclosed space where the shield could pinball back to him, but if they're standing on the street and there's nothing behind Bats for the shield to ricochet off of why would he risk tossing it? After all, if he did so and Bats dodged, the shield would end up a couple of blocks away.

Deadline
Originally posted by darthgoober
Not really, as soon as Bats actually pulled something like a batarang out of one of the pouches he'd know Bat's pouches were functional. He's not going to open against an unknown opponent by going all out offensively, Cap's more of a defensive fighter(thus, the shield). That's not to say that he'd go the whole match without throwing it at some point, but I doubt he'd risk it until he gets some kind of sense of his opponent. It might be different if they were in an enclosed space where the shield could pinball back to him, but if they're standing on the street and there's nothing behind Bats for the shield to ricochet off of why would he risk tossing it? After all, if he did so and Bats dodged, the shield would end up a couple of blocks away.

Exactly.

DarkSaint85
Yeah....however, my tactic (which isn't OOC) is that Batman will use stealth and sneakiness.

Albert (and maybe Deadline?) believe that Batman will fight man to man, face to face, with honour. Keep it up close and personal.

I'm NOT, btw, saying that Batman will unload his explosives and lethal ordnance on Cap. That's the kind of tactic Alberto would argue - but Batman doesn't kill unknown opponents.

Nor am I saying he attaches rockets to the shield and BFRs it:
https://i.postimg.cc/Lqq1Sbw0/batman641-batechpropulsion1.jpg
............
https://i.postimg.cc/tsvxLjSx/batman641-batechpropulsion2.jpg

And here:
https://i.postimg.cc/9DQ98Mp2/greenarrow71-batvsbrick3-1.jpg

Or say hey, he shapeshifts and disguises himself as a homeless guy or something:
https://i.postimg.cc/5YLQYFxB/batman34-digitalmask1.jpg
....
https://i.postimg.cc/sBtZgJRf/batman34-digitalmask2.jpg

I mean, yeah, I could. But I'm saying, there are so many options because Batman has so much ridiculous tech.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Deadline
Exactly.

I'm not arguing against it?

StiltmanFTW
Phantom's been waiting whole years, just so he could be goober's personal cheerleader again. Let him have that.

#beliveinbetter

DarkSaint85
Lol. Are they best buds?

Where does Albert fit in?

StiltmanFTW
Alberto is their child.

Deadline
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I'm not arguing against it?

Ok....if you don't want to argue against it now that's fine.

darthgoober
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yeah....however, my tactic (which isn't OOC) is that Batman will use stealth and sneakiness.

Albert (and maybe Deadline?) believe that Batman will fight man to man, face to face, with honour. Keep it up close and personal.

I'm NOT, btw, saying that Batman will unload his explosives and lethal ordnance on Cap. That's the kind of tactic Alberto would argue - but Batman doesn't kill unknown opponents.

Nor am I saying he attaches rockets to the shield and BFRs it:
https://i.postimg.cc/Lqq1Sbw0/batman641-batechpropulsion1.jpg
............
https://i.postimg.cc/tsvxLjSx/batman641-batechpropulsion2.jpg

And here:
https://i.postimg.cc/9DQ98Mp2/greenarrow71-batvsbrick3-1.jpg

Or say hey, he shapeshifts and disguises himself as a homeless guy or something:
https://i.postimg.cc/5YLQYFxB/batman34-digitalmask1.jpg
....
https://i.postimg.cc/sBtZgJRf/batman34-digitalmask2.jpg

I mean, yeah, I could. But I'm saying, there are so many options because Batman has so much ridiculous tech.
Well I don't doubt that Bats would use his tech, but he IS the kind of guy who likes to know what kind of opponent he's facing. He's not the type to just start letting loose with a bunch of crazy shit right off. Which makes total sense, if he tossed something like an electric batarange at an unknown opponent and the opponent happened to be someone who powered up by absorbing electricity, then he'd end up in a worse situation than he started in and if he did it to someone who's got something like a pacemaker he could even kill his opponent. Bat's considers that kind of thing to be sloppy work. He's going to be even more interested in feeling out an unknown opponent than Cap is, that's just the way his mind works. It wouldn't be a strictly hand to hand fight and Bruce would definitely bust out the typical batarangs and bolos early on against an armed opponent, but there's not a doubt in my mind that the two would end up in a melee fight. Then they'd separate for a few seconds and reassess the situation, Bat's would try a gadget to try to gain the upper hand as he entered melee again and that pattern would continue for the remainder of the fight.

DarkSaint85
Edit: @Deadline: Check my post on page 3.

I haven't been arguing against it for a while now, lol.

Deadline
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Edit: @Deadline: Check my post on page 3.

I haven't been arguing against it for a while now, lol.

Yea well I was refering to the other thread haven't been paying that much attention to this one.

Ok maybe I'll take a look later, was gonna write something about the sneakiness argument but looks like I'm gonna have to go.

StiltmanFTW
RQ

cdtm
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Big ass belts with dozens of pockets in Marvel are quite common, yet they're just for show.

Steve needs to guess right from the start that Batsie is not like the guys he worked with or fought against.

laughing out loud Liefeld era was even worse then they thought.

"He actually has stuff in his pockets! Wtf??"

StiltmanFTW
http://robliefeldcreations.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/image1-1.jpeg

deathslash
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
http://robliefeldcreations.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/image1-1.jpeg this can't be real....

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by deathslash
this can't be real....

It is.

https://www.cbr.com/rob-liefeld-the-pouch-bloodstrike-comic-book-debut/

Check out Bloodstrike #23.

He one-shots Magneto (amped by Sophia Philo) in it:

https://i.imgur.com/y2HE8YBh.jpg

Eon Blue
CA wins.

Senor Cage
Originally posted by relentless1
Ive been debating this one with a friend for the evening, I say Batman would win. And before all you Cap fanboys jump on here, representing your cap denominator let me just point out; Bats vs Cap can really be distilled down to three categories: Physicality, Fighting Skill, Gadgets; Cap wins Physicality for sure, he can bench 1200, Bats can press 1000; Cap is faster and more durable BUT Batman has more fighting skill; Cap knows about 12 martial arts while Batman has mastered 127, meaning that anything Cap can throw at Batman h2h will be countered. gadgets is also a no brainer for Batman because while Caps shield is very durable and quite versatile he doesnt have explosives, gas attack, projectiles, tazers etc like Batman does, more versatility in weaponry equals Batman finding a way around the shields defence. 2 out of 3 categories go to Batman. Its a helluva fight but Batman wins 6/10

Bruce is in another league, compared to pretty much all streets. Tanking blows from Wonder woman, one-shotting Grundy, hiding from Gotham, etc...

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by leonidas
the magneto thing has always been a bit confusing. he def couldn't affect it early on, but in an early avengers he did affect. then later on again (new mutants) he was shown unable to control it again.

i think it really comes down to writer's choice. /shrug

Also, composition. Was reminded that it now contains uru, for example. Something that is magnetic.

AlbertoJohnAvil
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Lol. Are they best buds?

Where does Albert fit in?

i read some of your scans like the one about him magnetizing with a Batarang and the way you are claiming it would work is pure headcanon and im still waiting for you to show me how Batman can survive a full shield throw to the chest?

Senor Cage
Bruce survived a blow from wonder woman and this is without any armor. confused

Deadline
Originally posted by Senor Cage
Bruce survived a blow from wonder woman and this is without any armor. confused

We have to assume he rolled with it or it's PIS.

AlbertoJohnAvil
because she was holding back bruce is a regular human even though he is a tough one he still has human durability and cannot survive something with enough force to go through an armored truck or cut a tank in half to claim he can is wank but I'm sure you have no problem with that lol

Senor Cage
Nah. she was mind controlled and not holding back.

AlbertoJohnAvil
evidence?

Senor Cage
In the book. Snyder's story arc where Batman is facing off with the league.

He also one-shots Grundy in Tom Kings run. Just insane.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
because she was holding back bruce is a regular human even though he is a tough one he still has human durability and cannot survive something with enough force to go through an armored truck or cut a tank in half to claim he can is wank but I'm sure you have no problem with that lol

https://comicnewbies.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/batmans-justice-buster-suit-vs-wonder-woman-1.jpg

'She means to kill you, Bruce....she's not pulling her punches....'

DarkSaint85
'What the hell is going on?'

'The League is here to do something we've wanted to for a long time.....kill you'.

https://pm1.narvii.com/6582/e28dfee52e3815bdce9b25d6e5ede5709814db28_hq.jpg

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
i read some of your scans like the one about him magnetizing with a Batarang and the way you are claiming it would work is pure headcanon and im still waiting for you to show me how Batman can survive a full shield throw to the chest?

Because it would never happen?

you keep trolling with this headcanon nonsense. Then bring up Cap America using his full strength and throwing his shield through Batman - a guy he has no info on and has no idea if he's a mass serial murderer or the greatest hero he's ever met - through his chest, lol.

cdtm
This is why I say Priest's Batman was "fair".


He was tuned to break Slade, and not the entire JL'fnA.

AlbertoJohnAvil
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Because it would never happen?

you keep trolling with this headcanon nonsense. Then bring up Cap America using his full strength and throwing his shield through Batman - a guy he has no info on and has no idea if he's a mass serial murderer or the greatest hero he's ever met - through his chest, lol.

finally you actually use a real point saying cap might hold back

AlbertoJohnAvil
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
'What the hell is going on?'

'The League is here to do something we've wanted to for a long time.....kill you'.

https://pm1.narvii.com/6582/e28dfee52e3815bdce9b25d6e5ede5709814db28_hq.jpg


yes i did not recognize it at first endgame she was toying with him if she had really wanted to she could have put a fist through his chest from the start but she just knocked him through a window and then slammed him in the ground then talked smack that gave him time to get his justice buster armor pure plot assist he never once took a full strike from her

Senor Cage
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
https://comicnewbies.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/batmans-justice-buster-suit-vs-wonder-woman-1.jpg

'She means to kill you, Bruce....she's not pulling her punches....'

Good, good.

<< THERE IS MORE FROM THIS THREAD HERE >>