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Where would Lucifer and Michael rank in Marvel cosmology?

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
Where would Lucifer and Michael rank in Marvel cosmology?

LT level.

IG Thanos - level,below LT.

TOAA
Michael/Lucifer then
Everybody else here.

Very high.

LT level.

Skyfather level.

Originally posted by abhilegend

What have they done to place them above Skyfather?

Just recently Surtur, a Marvel Skyfather, was going to destroy the entire universe till Odin stepped in and saved the day.

Lucifer's highest feat was creating a universe with his brother's power (that universe didn't even have angels/abstracts/etc...).

I still havent read this series but anything that has universal power would barely be midway up the Marvel/DC food chain. Destroying and recreating universes, reality warping is like a monthly thing in their respective multiverses.

Originally posted by kevdude
TOAA
Michael/Lucifer then
Everybody else here.

To put things into perspective Lucifer and Michael exists outside the primal monitor, which is what all of DC/Vertigo exists within as a tiny droplet within an ocean.

Furthermore, Lucifer created a infinite multiverse as it is stated on panel.

Originally posted by ShadowFyre
I still havent read this series but anything that has universal power would barely be midway up the Marvel/DC food chain. Destroying and recreating universes, reality warping is like a monthly thing in their respective multiverses.

Michael and Lucifer are abstracts of the highest order - said to be second in creation (next to God, of course).

Michael is the embodiment of God's power - the Dunamis Demiurgos. It is stated - repeatedly - that releasing his power would destroy all of creation. He had the power to end the war in Heaven with a wave of his hand, but he's kind of a pussy and mostly a pacifist.

Lucifer is the embodiment of God's will, and with it has infinite reality warping ability. He took Michael into the void, killed him, survived the Dunamis Demiurgos point blank, and then created a multiverse out of it effortlessly.

Feats can go on and on. People will try to lowball both Lucifer and Michael, but it's important to consider that Lucifer during his series was at full power for only a few chapters (voluntarily removing his wings before then and being weakened by God's departure thereafter). Michael was also depowered by God's departure and fiercely avoids using his power so as not to threaten creation. He has a few feats outside of Vertigo, including manhandling the Spectre with ease.

To answer the question, both are unquestionably above the Endless, and therefore should be likewise above Marvel's comparable abstracts (somewhere around LT, though I would probably rank LT higher for being a more complete being)

Originally posted by Board Walker
To put things into perspective Lucifer and Michael exists outside the primal monitor, which is what all of DC/Vertigo exists within as a tiny droplet within an ocean.

Where are you getting this from?

Originally posted by zopzop
Lucifer's highest feat was creating a universe with his brother's power (that universe didn't even have angels/abstracts/etc...).
Lucifer's best feat was arguably tanking the Dunamis Demiurgos, but that's irrelevant. When Lucifer created his multiverse he created the concepts of time, space, etc. You know, all the things that are abstracts.

He chose not to create immortals and the like. That much was made very clear if you read..

Originally posted by Cogito
Lucifer's best feat was arguably tanking the Dunamis Demiurgos, but that's irrelevant. When Lucifer created his multiverse he created the concepts of time, space, etc. You know, all the things that are abstracts.

He chose not to create immortals and the like. That much was made very clear if you read..
We've been through this. It was a universe, the three distinct creations were merged into ONE :
http://s4.postimg.org/hn7epgmnt/3124893_lucifer_69_p21.jpg

When Yahweh threatened to destroy "all creation", Elaine knew what it was :
http://s13.postimg.org/reprv8j9v/Lucifer_68_p15.jpg
"A Universe". The merged creation was A UNIVERSE.

And in the next to final issue in the series, Elaine takes over and becomes one with creation and guess what it is :
http://s13.postimg.org/dmbczlsib/Lucifer_74_p22.jpg
"My mind runs across the universe".

Now unless you got scans more recent than these calling it a multiverse or whatever. Post them please. Make sure they POST date the issues in these scans : Lucifer 68, 69, and the next to final issue 74.

Originally posted by zopzop
We've been through this. It was a universe, the three distinct creations were merged into ONE :

We have been through this - a million times.

In Lucifer: Nirvana (too lazy to post scans), Lucifer specifically says he created "a totality - a multiverse". You can find further proof if you like, such as the alternate Cal that appears from another universe.

Yes, the series commonly uses the word "universe". Don't read too much into it, it's not accurate. We know there's only one Lucifer, only one Michael, only one (of each) Endless. They all exist within the DCU (a multiverse, without a doubt).

Originally posted by zopzop
What have they done to place them above Skyfather?

Just recently Surtur, a Marvel Skyfather, was going to destroy the entire universe till Odin stepped in and saved the day.

Lucifer's highest feat was creating a universe with his brother's power (that universe didn't even have angels/abstracts/etc...).

So you don't see any problems with the fact that the guy you are talking about who was going to destroy the entire universe..being stopped by Odin? When Odin is nowhere near universal level?

How was he even planning to destroy the universe? If he legitimately had enough innate power to do that..Odin would of been as much of a threat as a mosquito.

Originally posted by Surtur
So you don't see any problems with the fact that the guy you are talking about who was going to destroy the entire universe..being stopped by Odin? When Odin is nowhere near universal level?

How was he even planning to destroy the universe? If he legitimately had enough innate power to do that..Odin would of been as much of a threat as a mosquito.
Odin and Seth's battle threatened to destroy the universe. Surtur, Odin's peer, almost destroyed the universe, till Odin stepped in. This isn't a new thing for Odin.

So Odin failed to defeat Galactus, who can't destroy a single universe...why? Why was *this* fight going to destroy the universe, but other times when Odin has gotten serious all he did was destroy surrounding galaxies?

Originally posted by Surtur
So Odin failed to defeat Galactus, who can't destroy a single universe...why? Why was *this* fight going to destroy the universe, but other times when Odin has gotten serious all he did was destroy surrounding galaxies?
Who says Galactus can't destroy a universe? Galactus is there to keep the balance between Eternity and Death, not wreck creation.

Check out his fight with Scrier/The Other. That fight would have destroyed the entire MULTIVERSE.

Originally posted by zopzop
Who says Galactus can't destroy a universe? Galactus is there to keep the balance between Eternity and Death, not wreck creation.

Check out his fight with Scrier/The Other. That fight would have destroyed the entire MULTIVERSE.

Same thing was said when Phantom Stranger and Spectre fought.

Originally posted by Zack M
Same thing was said when Phantom Stranger and Spectre fought.
It said multiverse? Scans?

Originally posted by zopzop
It said multiverse? Scans?

It said all of creation.

Originally posted by Zack M
It said all of creation.
Jean said something similar in the Odin/Seth fight (either all reality or all creation). Strange said they were tearing at the fabric of the multiverse.

Michael destroyed Spectre,iirc.

Originally posted by Zack M
Michael destroyed Spectre,iirc.

One shotted him.

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh79/lorrdraiden/spectre_defeated-1.jpg

Still dont get why this universe thing is such a big deal.

Scarlet Witch, and several other characters have created universes or pocket universes. Happens quite often in Marvel. And Odin has ripped an entire universe from the world tree. (Not calling him a universe buster but he has)Once again, Universe destroying and recreating is a monthly thing in Marvel.

Not very high at all. They benefited from being in a weaker universe.

Though that spectre oneshot scan should put them pretty far up without a doubt. Im just saying universe/time/reality warping is kinda common.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Not very high at all. They benefited from being in a weaker universe.

DAMN LIES!!!

Originally posted by ShadowFyre
Though that spectre oneshot scan should put them pretty far up without a doubt. Im just saying universe/time/reality warping is kinda common.

He outright roflstomped him. So yea I'd say he's way up there, easily above LT.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
DAMN LIES!!! Truth hurts, eh ?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Truth hurts, eh ?

If truth ever escaped from your Thanosi mouth you'd probably catch afire.

Originally posted by zopzop
Odin and Seth's battle threatened to destroy the universe. Surtur, Odin's peer, almost destroyed the universe, till Odin stepped in. This isn't a new thing for Odin. Originally posted by zopzop
Who says Galactus can't destroy a universe? Galactus is there to keep the balance between Eternity and Death, not wreck creation.

Check out his fight with Scrier/The Other. That fight would have destroyed the entire MULTIVERSE.


Never stop Zop.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
If truth ever escaped from your Thanosi mouth you'd probably catch afire. Hush, boy.

Lt level

Hasnt Lanterns made universes before? And since they are dc characters then I guess they are already set in a cosmic hierarchy that is similiar to Marvels.

Originally posted by ShadowFyre
Hasnt Lanterns made universes before? And since they are dc characters then I guess they are already set in a cosmic hierarchy that is similiar to Marvels.
Yup, and having one universe's energy already makes you equal to LT.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v155/thorion/house7.jpg

You're welcome Zop.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yup, and having one universe's energy already makes you equal to LT.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v155/thorion/house7.jpg

You're welcome Zop.
Get back to me when the LT gets run through by a sword.
http://s10.postimg.org/qte2rox79/3110122_lucifer_75_p11.jpg
Then we'll talk.

Originally posted by zopzop
Get back to me when the LT gets run through by a sword.
http://s10.postimg.org/qte2rox79/3110122_lucifer_75_p11.jpg
Then we'll talk.


Nice bait zop.

But since even combined with what, several other cosmics and all his power LT could only throw enough energy to endanger solar system.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/102593/2970863-reedsuper4hl5.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111111238/3241643-0855502799-29859.jpg

LT is trans level, right?

Originally posted by abhilegend
But since even combined with what, several other cosmics and all his power LT could only throw enough energy to endanger solar system.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/102593/2970863-reedsuper4hl5.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111111238/3241643-0855502799-29859.jpg

LT is trans level, right?
Seeing as how he starred down Adam Warlock with the IG, or orders Eternity/Infinity/etc.. around like a boss, I'd say : no.

As an added bonus, he doesn't have to worry about losing his power if someone does anything to his wings.

Originally posted by zopzop
Seeing as how he starred down Adam Warlock with the IG, or orders Eternity/Infinity/etc.. around like a boss, I'd say : no.

As an added bonus, he doesn't have to worry about losing his power if someone does anything to his wings.
Nope. Staring down isn't a feat.

By your standard of destroying universes, LT would be lucky to be Trans level going by Last Planet Standing.

Happy now?

Originally posted by zopzop
What have they done to place them above Skyfather?

Just recently Surtur, a Marvel Skyfather, was going to destroy the entire universe till Odin stepped in and saved the day.

Lucifer's highest feat was creating a universe with his brother's power (that universe didn't even have angels/abstracts/etc...).
Ignoring for now the fact that you are biased in your interpretation of those feats... even with the bias those feats arn't anywhere near equivalent. Creating a universe requires one to violate several Laws of Nature, and to get the upper hand vs. the Second Law of thermodynamics. Whereas destroying the universe may be done in perfect agreement with the Laws of Nature and the Second Law is actually helping you.

Give me a sledgehammer and I can pretty profoundly destroy a car in a couple of hours. But, afterwards, I most certainly cannot put it back together how it was in a similar timeframe.

They will be around the level of LT. Imo just a notch below him, but to each his own

Originally posted by abhilegend

But since even combined with what, several other cosmics and all his power LT could only throw enough energy to endanger solar system.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/102593/2970863-reedsuper4hl5.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111111238/3241643-0855502799-29859.jpg


That's false.

The "blowback" after destroying that Galactus would have destroyed the solar system.

But the cosmics weren't attacking the solar system, they were going to attack that Galactus.

This type of shit happens all the time.

I remember Eternity using all the power he could muster to destroy Thanos,
and after attacking Thanos, with all of his power, the blowback only destroyed a planet:

http://s5d4.turboimagehost.com/t/23738842_H8.jpg
http://s5d4.turboimagehost.com/t/23738843_H9.jpg

Does this mean Eternity's full power is planetary? Of course not, only an idiot would think so.

I have plenty more examples if needed. Although, knowing you, it won't matter much.

Originally posted by zopzop
Get back to me when the LT gets run through by a sword.
http://s10.postimg.org/qte2rox79/3110122_lucifer_75_p11.jpg
Then we'll talk. Yeah, Michael wasn't very vulnerable. He's always just been able to create universes but in terms of formidability very vulnerable as evidenced by your own scan.

Gabriel is an archangel responsible for preserving all the worlds in creation, so Lucifer being stabbed by him isn't really that bad.

Also, some people don't seem to understand that the whole debate of whether Lucifer created a single universe or a multiverse is irrelevant. Because Lucifer was also the one who created the original Vertigo reality which without a doubt was confirmed to be a multiverse. Among other things like his interactions with the Endless which confirm that he is indeed a multiversal power.

Originally posted by Mr Master
That's false.

The "blowback" after destroying that Galactus would have destroyed the solar system.

But the cosmics weren't attacking the solar system, they were going to attack that Galactus.

This type of shit happens all the time.

I remember Eternity using all the power he could muster to destroy Thanos,
and after attacking Thanos, with all of his power, the blowback only destroyed a planet:

http://s5d4.turboimagehost.com/t/23738842_H8.jpg
http://s5d4.turboimagehost.com/t/23738843_H9.jpg

Does this mean Eternity's full power is planetary? Of course not, only an idiot would think so.

I have plenty more examples if needed. Although, knowing you, it won't matter much.
Da ****? Reed flat out says that the energies are a threat to solar system and "the earth" will be lost in blowback.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111111238/3241643-0855502799-29859.jpg

Learn to read first.

And Eternity was always a pussy, so I'm not sure what you are trying to say. That LT is a pussy too who needs assistance in defeating an alternate Galactus?

Originally posted by abhilegend

Reed flat out says that the energies are a threat to solar system and "the earth" will be lost in blowback.
Reed ain't lying. The energies are a threat.

But it's the "blowback" that will destroy anything other than Galactus:

http://s5d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/23739891_H11.jpg

Again, let me know if you need me to splatter the page with proof that this happens all the time.
Originally posted by abhilegend

And Eternity was always a pussy, so I'm not sure what you are trying to say.

Big time "pussy."

http://s5d1.turboimagehost.com/t1/23739986_3175931-untitled-05.jpg


"Wolds within Worlds, Dimensions folding into themselves,
Entire UniverseS being born, and collapsing into ruin,
and yet I sense that ALL This -- is but a fraction of what Eternity is,

the core, the Heart of Eternity's being ... here All Energy, All Matter, lies,
I will detonate Eternity's Heart --- triggering another Creation event,
Re-Birthing every being and thing in All the UniverseS"

Originally posted by operator616
Gabriel is an archangel responsible for preserving all the worlds in creation, so Lucifer being stabbed by him isn't really that bad.

He looked like he was winning that fight till Yahweh stepped in and broke it up.

Also, 'preserving all the worlds in creation' isn't exactly an impressive job title. The PF has been called "the mother of stars" and it's not all that impressive in the MU cosmology.

Titles are meaningless unless backed by something. Great point, zop.

Why the hell are we low balling the characters for?

A simple question was asked, no more no less.

We know only there best feats would be use, why use there lowest ones.

By this low balled, does this mean the Flash is slow since Slade reacted to him? or Thor is weak since Captain America fought hm and survived?

No, all it means is they have low showings like any characters.

As for this, i see them evenly with LT, but below TOAA.

Originally posted by SquallX
Why the hell are we low balling the characters for?

A simple question was asked, no more no less.

We know only there best feats would be use, why use there lowest ones.

By this low balled, does this mean the Flash is slow since Slade reacted to him? or Thor is weak since Captain America fought hm and survived?

No, all it means is they have low showings like any characters.

As for this, i see them evenly with LT, but below TOAA.

Originally posted by SquallX
Why the hell are we low balling the characters for?

A simple question was asked, no more no less.

We know only there best feats would be use, why use there lowest ones.

By this low balled, does this mean the Flash is slow since Slade reacted to him? or Thor is weak since Captain America fought hm and survived?

No, all it means is they have low showings like any characters.

As for this, i see them evenly with LT, but below TOAA.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Reed ain't lying. The energies are a threat.

But it's the "blowback" that will destroy anything other than Galactus:

http://s5d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/23739891_H11.jpg

Again, let me know if you need me to splatter the page with proof that this happens all the time. When you're lying about the actual comment on the page? Yes.

And the "blowback" will destroy earth, not anything.

Such a pussy that LT is.




With all that power all he can do is destroy a planet? What a pussy.

Originally posted by zopzop
He looked like he was winning that fight till Yahweh stepped in and broke it up.

Also, 'preserving all the worlds in creation' isn't exactly an impressive job title. The PF has been called "the mother of stars" and it's not all that impressive in the MU cosmology. Lets keep in mind that Archangel Gabriel is the father of Christ, so very important in the cosmology.
Archangel Raguel ended up as The Spectre. The Tribunals counterpart in DCU.

And both angels are beneath Michael and Lucifer.

The top angels harming eachother doesn't mean much.

Lucifer was confident in that he could destroy Dream or Death as concepts in dealings with both of them, and Dream knew challenging Lucifer as certain death.. Similarly it took 'a lot' of pre-Retcon Beyonder's power to accomplish killing Death.

A bit ambiguous on all levels but most things are at this place in the hierarchys... but these things speak generally to where Lucifer's power lies.

Just because it's drawn as swords and shields combat doesn't mean anything.

Street level.

Originally posted by Mindset
Street level.

Above pre ret con beyonder level

Originally posted by zopzop
We've been through this. It was a universe, the three distinct creations were merged into ONE :
http://s4.postimg.org/hn7epgmnt/3124893_lucifer_69_p21.jpg

When Yahweh threatened to destroy "all creation", Elaine knew what it was :
http://s13.postimg.org/reprv8j9v/Lucifer_68_p15.jpg
"A Universe". The merged creation was A UNIVERSE.

And in the next to final issue in the series, Elaine takes over and becomes one with creation and guess what it is :
http://s13.postimg.org/dmbczlsib/Lucifer_74_p22.jpg
"My mind runs across the universe".

Now unless you got scans more recent than these calling it a multiverse or whatever. Post them please. Make sure they POST date the issues in these scans : Lucifer 68, 69, and the next to final issue 74. Lucifer: Nirvana said it was a multiverse after he created it. Part of the same run under the same author.

We already know Yahweh's creation is much more than a universe.
That should be another clue.

Just because another instance refers to it as a universe doesn't change that.

So it is inconsistent. I'm going with universe.

Im not debating how "powerful" they are as Ive never read the comics. Im only debating the universe parts as that happens all the time in Marvel and isnt a big deal.

Originally posted by Board Walker
Above pre ret con beyonder level When he was powerless maybe.

Originally posted by Juntai
Lets keep in mind that Archangel Gabriel is the father of Christ, so very important in the cosmology.
Archangel Raguel ended up as The Spectre. The Tribunals counterpart in DCU.

And both angels are beneath Michael and Lucifer.

The top angels harming eachother doesn't mean much.

Lucifer was confident in that he could destroy Dream or Death as concepts in dealings with both of them, and Dream knew challenging Lucifer as certain death.. Similarly it took 'a lot' of pre-Retcon Beyonder's power to accomplish killing Death.

A bit ambiguous on all levels but most things are at this place in the hierarchys... but these things speak generally to where Lucifer's power lies.

Just because it's drawn as swords and shields combat doesn't mean anything.
Gabriel has done NOTHING on panel that's impressive. The fact that he had Lucifer dead to rights but didnt go for the killing blow because he wanted to reason with him doesn't say much for Lucifer's power level.

The archangels have done nothing on panel that a serious Marvel Skyfather couldn't do.

Originally posted by zopzop
Gabriel has done NOTHING on panel that's impressive. The fact that he had Lucifer dead to rights but didnt go for the killing blow because he wanted to reason with him doesn't say much for Lucifer's power level.

The archangels have done nothing on panel that a serious Marvel Skyfather couldn't do.

Originally posted by zopzop
Gabriel has done NOTHING on panel that's impressive. The fact that he had Lucifer dead to rights but didnt go for the killing blow because he wanted to reason with him doesn't say much for Lucifer's power level.

The archangels have done nothing on panel that a serious Marvel Skyfather couldn't do. Lucifer and Michael being above characters like Spectre and The Endless says how much power they have.

Gabriel is a side character. Why would he need feats.

The fact he can tangle with Lucifer says all it needs to.

The Dreamstone/Materioptikon alone was shown as power over universes, and that's a small part of Dream's power.

When Dream went to challenge Lucifer, he went expecting to die.

Originally posted by zopzop
Gabriel has done NOTHING on panel that's impressive. The fact that he had Lucifer dead to rights but didnt go for the killing blow because he wanted to reason with him doesn't say much for Lucifer's power level.

The archangels have done nothing on panel that a serious Marvel Skyfather couldn't do.
Haha, how do you see LT needing assistance from six other cosmics to defeat an alternate Galactus and managing only a solar system level blast then?

Must be Herald level by your standard.

Originally posted by Juntai
Lucifer and Michael being above characters like Spectre and The Endless says how much power they have.

Gabriel is a side character. Why would he need feats.

The fact he can tangle with Lucifer says all it needs to.

The Dreamstone/Materioptikon alone was shown as power over universes, and that's a small part of Dream's power.

When Dream went to challenge Lucifer, he went expecting to die.
Gabriel is supposedly one of the "big three" angels. He was with Lucifer and Michael when Yahweh was giving them their roles over his creation.

This dude is featless and he almost killed Lucifer.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Haha, how do you see LT needing assistance from six other cosmics to defeat an alternate Galactus and managing only a solar system level blast then?

Must be Herald level by your standard.
Pre Retcon MM blasted teh sh|t out of Pre Retcon Beyonder and didn't even break Marsha's couch. They must be geriatric level.

Michael one shotted Spectre. I don't see somebody like Odin doing that.

Originally posted by zopzop
Gabriel is supposedly one of the "big three" angels. He was with Lucifer and Michael when Yahweh was giving them their roles over his creation.

This dude is featless and he almost killed Lucifer.

Pre Retcon MM blasted teh sh|t out of Pre Retcon Beyonder and didn't even break Marsha's couch. They must be geriatric level.
Must be.

LT and cosmics were using all their powers though.

Your double standards are showing though.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Must be.

LT and cosmics were using all their powers though.

Your double standards are showing though.
Pre MM and Pre Beyonder were multiple times more powerful than the rest of the MU combined.

Pre MM hit Pre Beyonder with everything he had and there was no damage to Marsha's apartment.

Originally posted by zopzop
Pre MM and Pre Beyonder were multiple times more powerful than the rest of the MU combined.

Pre MM hit Pre Beyonder with everything he had and there was no damage to Marsha's apartment.
Your point is? Somehow that doesn't apply to Gabriel and Lucifer?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Your point is?
You were complaining about insufficient collateral damage being done by high end Marvel cosmics (ie 'only' a solar system level blast).


The dude got impaled (and BLOODIED) by a SWORD. I wasn't complaining about the lack of collateral damage from their fight.

Originally posted by zopzop

You were complaining about insufficient collateral damage being done by high end Marvel cosmics (ie 'only' a solar system level blast).
Complaining? Not in the least. In that case I would show you LT's very tough fight with Nebulous. That was a fun fight.

You still hung over that? When will you comprehend that high power entities can injure other high level beings using anything.

Not that angelic sword are something ordinary.

Point being LT's counterpart Spectre is an ant compared to Michael. Imagine how above Lucifer would be.

Originally posted by Zack M
Michael one shotted Spectre. I don't see somebody like Odin doing that. Bran put up a very detailed post exposing the overrated Spectre. He loses all the time and him losing again and easily to Michael is no surprise. That holds no weight against someone like Odin who has superior feats.

I would say it would be like this.

1. Presence, TOAA, Overmonitor, DC vs Marvel Brothers
2. Omniversal beings like Michael, Lucifer, Spectre (100% back up by the Presence), LT (100% back up by TOAA), The Beyonders as a Race (all), Mandrakk 2, Anti-Monitor,
3. Megaversal/Multiversal beings like True Darkseid, LT/Spectre (Average), God Doom, Phoenix Force, Parallax, Mikaboshi, Marvel Brothers (from the x-Men adventures)
4. Ultimate Universal powers like THOTI, IG, ALE, Ion 1, LT/Spectre (low)
5. Universal Abstracts, Eternity, Kismet, Galactus, Imperiex, Some Celestials
6. Universal Powerhouses, Ego, Odin, Zeus, Phantom Stranger

Originally posted by zopzop
He looked like he was winning that fight till Yahweh stepped in and broke it up.

Also, 'preserving all the worlds in creation' isn't exactly an impressive job title. The PF has been called "the mother of stars" and it's not all that impressive in the MU cosmology.

He had the advantage, sure, but afterwards Lucifer seemed to be able to continue after which Yahweh intervened. Carey also repeatedly stated that Lucifer is second only to God. But even if we assume he lost the fight, Gabriel has the same position as Lucifer and Michael in the grand scheme of things (actually a bit lower but still). So like i said before, it's not really that bad of a showing.

The difference is, Phoenix Force is all about hyperbole. While Yahweh assigned the tasks to Lucifer, Michael and Gabriel and they were actually implemented.

Originally posted by operator616
He had the advantage, sure, but afterwards Lucifer seemed to be able to continue after which Yahweh intervened. Carey also repeatedly stated that Lucifer is second only to God. But even if we assume he lost the fight, Gabriel has the same position as Lucifer and Michael in the grand scheme of things (actually a bit lower but still). So like i said before, it's not really that bad of a showing.
It actually is a pathetic showing considering :
a) Gabriel has NO feats or fights to his credit aside from this
b) He was cut and bleeding from A SWORD


You got scans of Gabriel tending to all the worlds in creation?

Originally posted by zopzop

It actually is a pathetic showing considering :
a) Gabriel has NO feats or fights to his credit aside from this
b) He was cut and bleeding from A SWORD


No it isn't because:

a) Gabriel is an archangel and was clearly meant to be on the same level as Lucifer and Michael.
b) ....Ok? Excalbiur is a sword and yet it's also a multiversal weapon. I mean, come on, even you can't be stupid enough to claim that it was a regular sword.

Originally posted by zopzop
You got scans of Gabriel tending to all the worlds in creation?

I don't have to have scans. Because the existence of the Vertigo verse is enough proof of that. Yahweh assigned the roles at the dawn of time: Michael releases the energy, Lucifer makes the energy take form creating reality, and Gabriel preserves them. It's also confirmed in a bio. It's an established fact that the Vertigo multiverse is a creation of the archangels. Something you seemed to have ignored in my previous post because you can't counter it, and we both know that it completely shits on your "Lucifer created a universe" crap. Ive said it before a dozen times and ill say it again: whether Lucifer created a universe or a multiverse in issue #13 is irrelevant since he along with his brothers were responsible for the original creation as well. The mainstream Vertigo reality - an established multiverse.

Originally posted by Zack M
Michael one shotted Spectre. I don't see somebody like Odin doing that.

Batman kicked Spectre.

Only an idiot would bring that up.

Originally posted by operator616
No it isn't because:

a) Gabriel is an archangel and was clearly meant to be on the same level as Lucifer and Michael.
b) ....Ok? Excalbiur is a sword and yet it's also a multiversal weapon. I mean, come on, even you can't be stupid enough to claim that it was a regular sword.
Your b) example fails because Excalibur is a legendary weapon with ON PANEL feats to it's credit. Show me proof of spectacular on panel feats involving the sword Gabriel used to slash Lucifer. I'll wait patiently.




The fact remains that it was called a UNIVERSE by "God" aka Elaine. Shouldn't she know what her creation is? I'll take Elaine's word over yours, thanks though.

Also Lucifer only created a universe with Michael's power. That's hardly impressive seeing as how Reed used AE's power to create the MU. Reed = Lucifer?

good lord zop....your hate of vertigo needs to stop. we have a direct comparison between skyfathers (odin and a bunch of others) and morpheus in the sandman series. odin and all the skyfathers are WAYYY below the endless. the endless exist simultaneously in universes across the multiverse--that includes the vertigo multiverse (which i've shown you before...) and the dc proper universe. and they are below lucifer. after all these years you still haven't read the books, so i don't see why you feel the need to continually bash/hate/lowball the characters. it is tiresome bro....

Originally posted by leonidas
good lord zop....your hate of vertigo needs to stop. we have a direct comparison between skyfathers (odin and a bunch of others) and morpheus in the sandman series. odin and all the skyfathers are WAYYY below the endless. the endless exist simultaneously in universes across the multiverse--that includes the vertigo multiverse (which i've shown you before...) and the dc proper universe. and they are below lucifer. after all these years you still haven't read the books, so i don't see why you feel the need to continually bash/hate/lowball the characters. it is tiresome bro....

You are attacking him, but I think you are missing his point. He is simply saying that the on panel feats don't equal his billing in the cosmic hierarchy. Now, I don't know if that is true or not because I don't give a shit about D.C. and their universes, but I can understand the premise of what he is saying. Insane Genius Vell recreated the universe along with Entropy and he is hardly divine.

Originally posted by leonidas
good lord zop....your hate of vertigo needs to stop. we have a direct comparison between skyfathers (odin and a bunch of others) and morpheus in the sandman series. odin and all the skyfathers are WAYYY below the endless. the endless exist simultaneously in universes across the multiverse--that includes the vertigo multiverse (which i've shown you before...) and the dc proper universe. and they are below lucifer. after all these years you still haven't read the books, so i don't see why you feel the need to continually bash/hate/lowball the characters. it is tiresome bro....
I don't hate them. I just think they are highly overrated.

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
You are attacking him, but I think you are missing his point. He is simply saying that the on panel feats don't equal his billing in the cosmic hierarchy. Now, I don't know if that is true or not because I don't give a shit about D.C. and their universes, but I can understand the premise of what he is saying. Insane Genius Vell recreated the universe along with Entropy and he is hardly divine.
You don't even need the Insane Genis-vell example. Reed did what Lucifer did (use another being's power to make a reality), is Reed an abstract?

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
You are attacking him, but I think you are missing his point. He is simply saying that the on panel feats don't equal his billing in the cosmic hierarchy. Now, I don't know if that is true or not because I don't give a shit about D.C. and their universes, but I can understand the premise of what he is saying. Insane Genius Vell recreated the universe along with Entropy and he is hardly divine.

i would 'attack' anyone who refuses to actually READ the material required to debate it fairly and knowledgeably. hence, he HAS no point. the fact that you can 'understand' his baseless and utterly invalid point, is only proof that he shouldn't be spouting off because, obviously, it leads others toward the completely wrong 'understanding'. to get the endless and where they fit into the grand scheme, requires reading the series. same with lucifer. if you haven't read it, you shouldn't be talking about it let alone be pretending that you know WHAT you're talking about.

Well after reading all of this,i see how overrated are Michael and Lucifer.
But i would rank them Elder God - tiers.

Originally posted by zopzop
I don't hate them. I just think they are highly overrated.


You don't even need the Insane Genis-vell example. Reed did what Lucifer did (use another being's power to make a reality), is Reed an abstract?

Lucifer using Michael's power to make reality is not the same as the Reed AE thing.

Michael/Lucifer were in the void outside of creation when that happened, the void being an infinite empty space where time/space don't really exist.

Michael's explosion creates the time/space/energy of creation, and Lucifer directly shapes all that power into a multiverse. Reed telling the Alien Entity what to do with his knowledge is not at all comparable.

Also in regards to Gabriel, sure he doesn't have many feats but that's not at all the nature of Vertigo. But he's featured in Hellblazer and during his few appearances in that it's clear that he could easily beat The First of The Fallen and is pretty much unassailable other than through trickery.

The thing with the Vertigo angels (and the Endless) is a) loads of rules that limit their actions but b) literal as the plot demands powers. But also the fact is the Vertigo comics were never going to include powerful entities punching each other and stuff like the mainstream Marvel/DC comics do.

Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
Lucifer using Michael's power to make reality is not the same as the Reed AE thing.

Michael/Lucifer were in the void outside of creation when that happened, the void being an infinite empty space where time/space don't really exist.

Michael's explosion creates the time/space/energy of creation, and Lucifer directly shapes all that power into a multiverse. Reed telling the Alien Entity what to do with his knowledge is not at all comparable.
You're missing my point. Lucifer created NOTHING without Michael's power. In the same way Reed guided the AE to make sure that the newly created universe was made correctly.

It wasn't Reed's power that created the MU just like it wasn't Lucifer's power that created his universe. Thank AE and Michael for that.

Originally posted by zopzop
You're missing my point. Lucifer created NOTHING without Michael's power. In the same way Reed guided the AE to make sure that the newly created universe was made correctly.

It wasn't Reed's power that created the MU just like it wasn't Lucifer's power that created his universe. Thank AE and Michael for that.

Lucifer tanked a multiversal big bang and directly shaped it into everything that existed. Sure Michael's power was needed to make a canvas for LUcifer to paint on but that's because nothing in Vertigo other than Yahweh and Michael with the Demiurgic power could make time and space.

Reed guided the Alien Entity, Lucifer controlled matter, energy, time and space. on a multiversal scale.

One of those is an abstract level feat and the other is someone being really smart.

My point is just that you comparing Reed and Lucifer's feats there is pointless other than to try and low ball Lucifer's feat.

Originally posted by leonidas
i would 'attack' anyone who refuses to actually READ the material required to debate it fairly and knowledgeably. hence, he HAS no point. the fact that you can 'understand' his baseless and utterly invalid point, is only proof that he shouldn't be spouting off because, obviously, it leads others toward the completely wrong 'understanding'. to get the endless and where they fit into the grand scheme, requires reading the series. same with lucifer. if you haven't read it, you shouldn't be talking about it let alone be pretending that you know WHAT you're talking about.

Originally posted by MaZeRaIII
Well after reading all of this,i see how overrated are Michael and Lucifer.
But i would rank them Elder God - tiers.



when you grow up, read the books. by then i hope you'll be old enough to decide for yourself.

Originally posted by MaZeRaIII
Well after reading all of this,i see how overrated are Michael and Lucifer.
But i would rank them Elder God - tiers.

Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
Lucifer tanked a multiversal big bang
Remember these?

Dr Strange and Mordo also tanked the Big Bang when Genesis blew up in their faces.

Rick Jones tanked the Big Bang when Entropy blew up in his face.

Warlock tanked the Big Bang when Thanos/HOTI blew up in his face.

Reed tanked the Big Bang when AE blew up in his face.

There's probably more I'm missing.

They were literally at 'ground zero' and yet they survived just fine. They all abstract level?

Unless of course, the characters at ground zero were not meant to be hurt by said Big Bang. That, makes more sense.

Butthurt people,nothin new.

Originally posted by MaZeRaIII
Butthurt people,nothin new.

The first person that says butthurt, is the person who is actually butthurt

I am not going to feed trolls.
So ignoring you.

Originally posted by MaZeRaIII
I am not going to feed trolls.
So ignoring you.

Yes, I'm trolling, you didn't even read the comics

How can you say i didn't read them,if you know nothing about me?Stupid logic.

Your placing them at elder God level. Clearly that's either low balling on purpose or you have no clue cause you didn't read it.

Elder Gods = Universal.
Michael = Universal.
Lucifer = Universal.
It is logical/

Originally posted by MaZeRaIII
How can you say i didn't read them,if you know nothing about me?Stupid logic.


There are a couple of super hardcore message board gangsters here. Just step over them.

Clearly Lucifer and Michael are multiversal. Michael has one shotted A multiversal being.

Why is this even a question now?

Your statement is not logical.

Your letting the swords and shield type combat limit your understanding.

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
There are a couple of super hardcore message board gangsters here. Just step over them.

Like I step all over your stupid face. Your to much of a pansy to go toe to toe with me, schoolgirl.

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
There are a couple of super hardcore message board gangsters here. Just step over them.
Yeah,trolls are everywhere,they are part of the nature.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Clearly Lucifer and Michael are multiversal. Michael has one shotted A multiversal being.

Why is this even a question now?

Your statement is not logical.

Your letting the swords and shield type combat limit your understanding.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Clearly Lucifer and Michael are multiversal. Michael has one shotted A multiversal being.

Why is this even a question now?

Your statement is not logical.

Your letting the swords and shield type combat limit your understanding.
Neither are multiversal,no feat indicates that.
One - shotting SPectre is not a good feat,Nekron defeated Spectre.
Captain Marvel while empowered by Earth's magic(i highly doubt that Earth's magic can make someone universal) was giving a Spectre a run for his own money.And SPectre is not multiversal,no feat indicates that,and he is a jobber.
They are universal.
It is logical.
Elder Gods are universal,and so are Michael and Lucifer,so they are Elder Gods -tier.

Originally posted by MaZeRaIII
Neither are multiversa,no feat indicates that.
They are universal.
It is logical.
Elder Gods are universal,and so are Michael and Lucifer,so they are Elder Gods -tier.

Lucifer literally built a multiverse.

Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
Lucifer literally built a multiverse.
Quoting ZopZop:
" It was a universe, the three distinct creations were merged into ONE :

http://postimg.org/image/hn7epgmnt/


When Yahweh threatened to destroy "all creation", Elaine knew what it was :

http://postimg.org/image/reprv8j9v/

"A Universe". The merged creation was A UNIVERSE.

And in the next to final issue in the series, Elaine takes over and becomes one with creation and guess what it is :

http://postimg.org/image/dmbczlsib/

"My mind runs across the universe". "

And Lucifer built a universe with Demiurgic power,which is Michael's power.
It means he cannot create Universe on his own,and his other feats are only universal.SO no they are not Multiversal.

Originally posted by MaZeRaIII
Neither are multiversal,no feat indicates that

http://s1151.photobucket.com/user/sclements1/media/smiley.jpg.html

in that scan morpheus crossed over into another universe and pulled prez away from the 'supreme being' of that alternate earth, boss smilie. the next scan shows that there are indeed MANY different 'americas'. that entire arc (6-7 issues or something) was a jaunt through alternate universes.

http://s1151.photobucket.com/user/sclements1/media/otheramericas.jpg.html

it's obvious to anyone who has read the series' that vertigo IS a multiverse, and dream has purview over his element in EVERY VERSION of every universe in the multiverse. through the series he travels outside the universe several times. but to know any of this, you'd need to read the material. given that you haven't at least have the decency to quote someone who HAS read the books. or don't. but drawing faulty conclusions based on the reasoning of someone who's never read them is just....flat out dumb. in most threads that don't involve vertigo or hercules, lol i like zop and he's pretty cool. he lacks perspective to comment on this material accurately however. don't be a follower. and don't do drugs.

Originally posted by MaZeRaIII
Neither are multiversal,no feat indicates that.
One - shotting SPectre is not a good feat,Nekron defeated Spectre.
Captain Marvel while empowered by Earth's magic(i highly doubt that Earth's magic can make someone universal) was giving a Spectre a run for his own money.And SPectre is not multiversal,no feat indicates that,and he is a jobber.
They are universal.
It is logical.
Elder Gods are universal,and so are Michael and Lucifer,so they are Elder Gods -tier.

Michael has defeated Spectre 3 times, and has one-shotted him twice in these 3 encounters. No mere "elder god tiers" can do that and you know it.

Nekron defeated the weakass Crispus Spectre, not the same ones which Michael defeated (Cancara, hostless, and Corrigan Spectre). And that was only because he has no soul. Not to mention that Nekron was defeating the white light entity (a universal power) and easily handled the Anti-Monitor (another universal power - SCW version).

Yes, while empowered by all Earth's magic; that's not exactly what id call a small amp; and they battled for like 3 issues. While Michael outright one-shotted him.

Well actually Spectre does have feats which are trans-universal. And at one point he was creating universes casually without even knowing it.

Originally posted by MaZeRaIII
Quoting ZopZop:

And Lucifer built a universe with Demiurgic power,which is Michael's power.
It means he cannot create Universe on his own,and his other feats are only universal.SO no they are not Multiversal.


You seem to think that Zop has it all figured out.

You do realize that Zopzop is still acting like that feat is everything there is to proving that Lucifer's power is multiversal simply because Zop doesn't know any better.

Anyone who has read the series would tell you that the fact that Lucifer was responsible for the original creation (a confirmed multiverse) and his clear superiority to the Endless, established his multliversal power. We also know that he's Michael's equal if not superior; same Michael who has actually one-shotted the Spectre-force and beat the hell out of Corrigan-Spectre. So even if you choose to believe that what Lucifer created in #13 is a mere universe, some facts, like the above i mentioned, are irrefutable.

Love the elder God tier part though. You clearly know your shit.

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/powerlisting/images/4/44/Lucifermultiverse.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20141205104800

multiverse.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/powerlisting/images/4/44/Lucifermultiverse.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20141205104800

multiverse.

Your image was coming up as small so I thought I'd upload a bigger one.

http://i.imgur.com/SAEVuom.jpg

Originally posted by One_Angry_Scot
You're image was coming up as small so I thought I'd upload a bigger one.

http://i.imgur.com/SAEVuom.jpg

Thanks ^^

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/powerlisting/images/4/44/Lucifermultiverse.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20141205104800

multiverse.

Right on panel.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/powerlisting/images/4/44/Lucifermultiverse.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20141205104800

multiverse.
What issue is that from?

Hopefully it's after issues 68, 69, and 74 of the Lucifer series. Because the merged creation was referred to as a universe, if it's before, not interested.

Last issue of Lucifer.

Originally posted by Zack M
Last issue of Lucifer.
So either Elaine aka God of the Vertigoverse is full of sh|t or Lucifer who is below God is full of sh|t.

I'm on team Elaine. It's a universe.

No, it's from the Lucifer: Nirvana one-shot which is chronologically somewhere in the 20s issue. But that's irrelevant either way.

I agree, Lucifer FTW.

Originally posted by operator616
No, it's from the Lucifer: Nirvana one-shot which is chronologically somewhere in the 20s issue. But that's irrelevant either way.

When was it revealed that Lucifer built the Vertigo multiverse?

it never fails to amaze me how people get caught up in terminolgy. 'creation', 'existence', 'universe', 'multiverse'. they are used so interchangeably that they have lost any relevance, especially in the older books. but it says multiverse, and so zop decides to choose universe, cuz it suits him. despite on panel proof from BOTH series'.

i should be beyond being surprised by now.

Originally posted by operator616
Michael has defeated Spectre 3 times, and has one-shotted him twice in these 3 encounters. No mere "elder god tiers" can do that and you know it.

Nekron defeated the weakass Crispus Spectre, not the same ones which Michael defeated (Cancara, hostless, and Corrigan Spectre). And that was only because he has no soul. Not to mention that Nekron was defeating the white light entity (a universal power) and easily handled the Anti-Monitor (another universal power - SCW version).

Yes, while empowered by all Earth's magic; that's not exactly what id call a small amp; and they battled for like 3 issues. While Michael outright one-shotted him.

Well actually Spectre does have feats which are trans-universal. And at one point he was creating universes casually without even knowing it.




You seem to think that Zop has it all figured out.

You do realize that Zopzop is still acting like that feat is everything there is to proving that Lucifer's power is multiversal simply because Zop doesn't know any better.

Anyone who has read the series would tell you that the fact that Lucifer was responsible for the original creation (a confirmed multiverse) and his clear superiority to the Endless, established his multliversal power. We also know that he's Michael's equal if not superior; same Michael who has actually one-shotted the Spectre-force and beat the hell out of Corrigan-Spectre. So even if you choose to believe that what Lucifer created in #13 is a mere universe, some facts, like the above i mentioned, are irrefutable.

Love the elder God tier part though. You clearly know your shit.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial


Two thumbs up.

Op knows what he's talking about.

Originally posted by leonidas
it never fails to amaze me how people get caught up in terminolgy. 'creation', 'existence', 'universe', 'multiverse'. they are used so interchangeably that they have lost any relevance, especially in the older books. but it says multiverse, and so zop decides to choose universe, cuz it suits him. despite on panel proof from BOTH series'.

i should be beyond being surprised by now.
Wrong, I chose "universe" because Vertigo's GOD aka Elaine called it a universe (in the next to final issue of the series btw). I guess Quan and I were right from the get go, Vertigo's God is an idiot feeb.

Originally posted by Zack M
When was it revealed that Lucifer built the Vertigo multiverse?

It was stated several times throughout the series that Lucifer and Michael were the ones who were responsible for the first creation as well. 3 examples would be issue #26, #39 and #75. Confirmed in the Vertigo encyclopedia .Lucifer #36-40 confirmed that the original creation was indeed a multiverse consisting of countless realities.

Other Vertigo comics like Sandman #4, #23, #54 #66, #67, Absolute Sandman, Hellblazer #249, Doom Patrol #29, Hunter Age of Magic #3 have all shown alternate realities proving the existence of the multiverse. Ive already posted all the scans before (Leonidas did too in this very thread), but they've been ignored time and time again.

Originally posted by zopzop
I guess Quan and I were right from the get go, Vertigo's God is an idiot feeb.

Now we know you are trolling, troll.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Now we know you are trolling, troll.
It's not trolling.

Elaine called the merged creation in the next to last issue of the seris : a universe. Who is Elaine? Elaine is GOD. Not a created being like Lucifer or Michael. Not a small 'g' god like Thor. She's GOD. The ONE and ONLY GOD of the Vertigoverse.

If she says her creation is a universe, it's a damn universe.

SO either she's an idiot or Lucifer was talking out of his @$$ in bragging about 'his multiverse' that he needed his brother's power to create in the first place.

They can't both be right.

Originally posted by operator616
It was stated several times throughout the series that Lucifer and Michael were the ones who were responsible for the first creation as well. 3 examples would be issue #26, #39 and #75. Confirmed in the Vertigo encyclopedia .Lucifer #36-40 confirmed that the original creation was indeed a multiverse consisting of countless realities.

Other Vertigo comics like Sandman #4, #23, #54 #66, #67, Absolute Sandman, Hellblazer #249, Doom Patrol #29, Hunter Age of Magic #3 have all shown alternate realities proving the existence of the multiverse. Ive already posted all the scans before (Leonidas did too in this very thread), but they've been ignored time and time again.

Pretty much settles it then.

Originally posted by zopzop
Wrong, I chose "universe" because Vertigo's GOD aka Elaine called it a universe (in the next to final issue of the series btw). I guess Quan and I were right from the get go, Vertigo's God is an idiot feeb.


Good series but these guys are overrated to insane levels IMO.

Originally posted by zopzop
It's not trolling.

Elaine called the merged creation in the next to last issue of the seris : a universe. Who is Elaine? Elaine is GOD. Not a created being like Lucifer or Michael. Not a small 'g' god like Thor. She's GOD. The ONE and ONLY GOD of the Vertigoverse.

If she says her creation is a universe, it's a damn universe.

SO either she's an idiot or Lucifer was talking out of his @$$ in bragging about 'his multiverse' that he needed his brother's power to create in the first place.

They can't both be right. Super trolling.

Creation is shown time and again to be a multiverse on panel.

Lucifer also created a multiverse as he repeated the act that he did in the original creation and even called it a multiverse.

But OK.

Cling to that nonsense.

Originally posted by Juntai
Super trolling.

Creation is shown time and again to be a multiverse on panel.

Lucifer also created a multiverse as he repeated the act that he did in the original creation and even called it a multiverse.

But OK.

Cling to that nonsense.

Pretty sure a one-off statement overrides decades of on-panel evidence and direct statements by the most credible characters imaginable.

/sarcasm

Originally posted by zopzop
It's not trolling....

If she says her creation is a universe, it's a damn universe.

They can't both be right.

of course it's trolling zop. and they can absolutely both be right given the fact that there is no 'absolute' definition of creation/universe/multiverse. you're applying YOUR preconceived notion to the terms. neither the books, nor the writers, adhere to YOUR notions. hence, both of them are right, and you are, blatantly, wrong.

this debate really has grown tiresome though. i'm gonna request a mod ruling on whether the vertigoverse is a mutliverse. i know a mod ruling won't change your opinion, but at least it will allow me to open a vertigo-based thread without having to read any more of this ridiculous denial of on panel proof.

Originally posted by leonidas
of course it's trolling zop. and they can absolutely both be right given the fact that there is no 'absolute' definition of creation/universe/multiverse. you're applying YOUR preconceived notion to the terms. neither the books, nor the writers, adhere to YOUR notions. hence, both of them are right, and you are, blatantly, wrong.

this debate really has grown tiresome though. i'm gonna request a mod ruling on whether the vertigoverse is a mutliverse. i know a mod ruling won't change your opinion, but at least it will allow me to open a vertigo-based thread without having to read any more of this ridiculous denial of on panel proof.


While your at it, ask the mods if its okay for you to continue to act like a dick about this whole thing.

Planet to the dome > Spectre (backed by his "boss?"

http://s5d1.turboimagehost.com/t/22496466_Mxy_kills_Spectre1.jpg http://s5d1.turboimagehost.com/t/22496468_Mxy_kills_Spectre2.jpg

Originally posted by Cogito
Pretty sure a one-off statement overrides decades of on-panel evidence and direct statements by the most credible characters imaginable.

/sarcasm

I know, right?

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
While your at it, ask the mods if its okay for you to continue to act like a dick about this whole thing.

aww, look how cute he is jumping in as zop's white knight. sure he must be thrilled to have you. anyway, this is very old and tiresome between zop and i and others, and this sh!t drags down every vertigo thread, every time. about time it ended.

Originally posted by leonidas
aww, look how cute he is jumping in as zop's white knight. sure he must be thrilled to have you. anyway, this is very old and tiresome between zop and i and others, and this sh!t drags down every vertigo thread, every time. about time it ended.

Its ironic since he had a fuss about me agreeing with Rao about Superman. Then again you can't expect reason from a loon.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Its ironic since he had a fuss about me agreeing with Rao about Superman. Then again you can't expect reason from a loon.

At one point, I thought you and Rao were the same.

Originally posted by quanchi112



Good series but these guys are overrated to insane levels IMO.

Like Thanos right?

Originally posted by leonidas
aww, look how cute he is jumping in as zop's white knight. sure he must be thrilled to have you. anyway, this is very old and tiresome between zop and i and others, and this sh!t drags down every vertigo thread, every time. about time it ended. People are free to have their own opinions. Zop has a scan that enforces his and you choose to have your own opinion. This thread is about posters sharing their own opinions not the mods deciding for us.

Originally posted by SquallX
Like Thanos right? He is underrated IMO but that's off topic.

Originally posted by zopzop
Remember these?

Dr Strange and Mordo also tanked the Big Bang when Genesis blew up in their faces.

Rick Jones tanked the Big Bang when Entropy blew up in his face.

Warlock tanked the Big Bang when Thanos/HOTI blew up in his face.

Reed tanked the Big Bang when AE blew up in his face.

There's probably more I'm missing.

They were literally at 'ground zero' and yet they survived just fine. They all abstract level?

Unless of course, the characters at ground zero were not meant to be hurt by said Big Bang. That, makes more sense.

So just out of curiosity, Reed survived a big bang based on his own innate power..how? It sounds weird for Marvel to have him tank such a blast with no real explanation as to how he managed to do it.

Also I would think there is a vast different between the big bang of a single universe and that of a multiverse.

Originally posted by Zack M
At one point, I thought you and Rao were the same.

Nah, he's too good with Sigs.

Originally posted by operator616
Also, some people don't seem to understand that the whole debate of whether Lucifer created a single universe or a multiverse is irrelevant. Because Lucifer was also the one who created the original Vertigo reality which without a doubt was confirmed to be a multiverse. Among other things like his interactions with the Endless which confirm that he is indeed a multiversal power.

Considering this fact, why is the "universe" or "multiverse" debate even still going on? If both universe and multiverse are used to describe what Lucifer created..but we also know he created the original Vertigo reality which we know is a multiverse..then what the f*ck..why would anyone say "makes more sense to assume the universe label is the correct one" ?

Unless there are details you are leaving out..this universe/multiverse debate should be over.

^ the reason the debate is still going on is because this fact is outright ignored. Everybody who's claiming that Lucifer isn't multiversal is basically trying to avoid this point.

And how do they avoid it? Just ignore it. Because why the hell not.

You'll notice that when Zop quotes my posts he literally doesn't respond to this particular point and only replies to irrelevat ones. Which is why i decided not to respond back, because i know that no matter how many times i repeat my point he'll keep avoiding it.

Red herring at its best, basically.

Though I had thought the story goes that God created Lucifer and Michael and they both worked together to create the original multiverse. Though even just being half responsible for a multiverse still puts him above universal level.

Also hasn't Lucifer destroyed entire dimensions just by his sheer presence?

Originally posted by Surtur
Though I had thought the story goes that God created Lucifer and Michael and they both worked together to create the original multiverse. Though even just being half responsible for a multiverse still puts him above universal level.


Lucifer along with Michael were responsible for the original creation. Though it's not like each of them created half of the multiverse each. They have specific roles. Michael releases the energy, and Lucifer gives it form (shapes it into matter, creating all the planets in the universes, etc..). So Lucifer is basically responsible for all the matter in the multiverse.

Originally posted by Surtur


Also hasn't Lucifer destroyed entire dimensions just by his sheer presence?

Yes. The mansions of silence dimension.

Originally posted by Surtur
Though I had thought the story goes that God created Lucifer and Michael and they both worked together to create the original multiverse. Though even just being half responsible for a multiverse still puts him above universal level.

Also hasn't Lucifer destroyed entire dimensions just by his sheer presence?

Lucifer cannot create out of literal nothing (e.g. the void before creation, the void outside of creation). That does not mean he cannot manipulate everything that already exists, which is the only thing relevant in a battle setting. Even if the fight were to take place in the void, Lucifer would still be able to f*** his opponent, unless his opponent were Oblivion or something.

To anyone trying to use his lack of the Dunamis Demiurgos to lowball him - I would ask them to point out examples of anyone their elevating above Lucifer doing anything in a true void, or without something existing before. Even if you take one of Marvel's many genesis stories (AE, Sise-neg, HOTU, etc), all those happened within creation. None of them were literally made out of nothing. None of them couldn't be replicated by Lucifer (as he already did - twice).

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Its ironic since he had a fuss about me agreeing with Rao about Superman. Then again you can't expect reason from a loon.

Originally posted by operator616
Lucifer along with Michael were responsible for the original creation. Though it's not like each of them created half of the multiverse each. They have specific roles. Michael releases the energy, and Lucifer gives it form (shapes it into matter, creating all the planets in the universes, etc..). So Lucifer is basically responsible for all the matter in the multiverse.

So then technically isn't Lucifer also responsible for the more abstract things..like time itself?