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Long ago, Ragnos was thought of as the most powerful ancient Sith in terms of just about everything.

Now, we've gotten a lot of sources that indicate much of his success owed to cunning, strategy, and general respect than just brute force.

With that in mind, and all we've learned about other ancient Sith like Muur, Hord, Pall, etc. can we still regard Ragnos as supreme?

I haven't had that impression of him in a while. He's the realest, manliest ****er of the lot, but there's not much evidence to suggest he's outstandingly powerful among them.

Ragnos is the immaculate Ancient Sith.

Cunning, Decently powerful, and legend in his own right.

How is it this random is better written than Bane? Like seriously lol

Ragnos is the greatest of the ancient Sith until the time of Exar Kun.

That's made clear when Freedon Nadd works as his errand boy in TOTJ.

Freedon Nadd, of course, being more powerful than Naga Sadow, and so on.

I'd argue Nadd was more powerful than Kun. As far as being Nadd's errand boy, I think sith spirits still maintain a hierarchy of some sort. Ragnos is the the most respected and generally regarded as the leader in the underworld.

The only way the hierarchy would be maintained is via power, in my opinion.

At the end of the day, a Sith isn't going to be bossed around by a weaker Sith.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Long ago, Ragnos was thought of as the most powerful ancient Sith in terms of just about everything.

Now, we've gotten a lot of sources that indicate much of his success owed to cunning, strategy, and general respect than just brute force.

With that in mind, and all we've learned about other ancient Sith like Muur, Hord, Pall, etc. can we still regard Ragnos as supreme? Isn't there a source that also calls him the most powerful?

I know Kun surpassed him in that regard.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The only way the hierarchy would be maintained is via power, in my opinion.

At the end of the day, a Sith isn't going to be bossed around by a weaker Sith. welp, my argument was that nadd>kun. If we are to establish that both were powerhouses and yet nadd yielded to ragnos, that's more evidence of ragnos' superiority.

My apologies for misunderstanding then. What's your reasoning for Nadd > Kun, though?

His vast reserves of force knowledge and power as evidenced by gameplay sourcebooks (n-canon but paints a picture), as well as his holocron that took Bane a decade to study. His much better showing against the Massassi than Kun when they both were at the beginning of their sith careers. Nadd had the fortune of traveling to the sith empire uninterrupted and gathering everything that wasn't discovered (as most of the sith empire was still undiscovered by the republic). Mastering all of Sadow's techniques was what had Kun going for him but Nadd did the same. The other thing Kun might have had in his favor was the Ossus library, if he had time to study it that is.

Solid argument. However, don't forget Exar Kun retrieved the Dark Holocron from Odan-Urr.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't that contain nearly all the teachings of the Sith Empire?

Also, I'm not sure the Massassi comparison is fair since Kun didn't have the Force available to him.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Solid argument. However, don't forget Exar Kun retrieved the Dark Holocron from Odan-Urr.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't that contain nearly all the teachings of the Sith Empire?

Also, I'm not sure the Massassi comparison is fair since Kun didn't have the Force available to him.

1. I don't recall it saying it had ALL the teachings of the sith, just that it had teachings of the sith dating back 100,000 years. Nadd instead had things like Adas' holocron, which alone allowed him to conquer Onderon singlehandedly, not to mention whatever else he found within the Old Sith Empire.

2. Why wasn't the force available to him again? Remind me, I don't recall. And if the force was unavailable to him, wouldn't that further show Nadd's dominance, who showed no such hindrance?

3. Lets also take into the account that Exar Kun was a sith lord for less than a year, while Nadd was around for decades? That would further explain why he had 10 years worth of knowledge locked within his holocron. Kun may have had considerable sources at his disposal, but he lacked the time to absorb them.

Nah. Kun curbs Ragnos and Nadd.

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Nah. Kun curbs Ragnos.

Awesome rebuttal

1. Yeah, fair enough. I would point out that he has all of Naga Sadow's knowledge, but so does Freedon Nadd.

2. The text made it intentionally vague, but it seems to either be because of the dark side nexus of the world or Freedon Nadd was intentionally suppressing his abilities. I don't think it would show Nadd's dominance, however, since he was already a Sith who had access to the planet's power, whereas Exar Kun was cut off from his power since he still was a Jedi and wielded the light-side, if that makes sense. When Exar Kun embraced the dark side, we saw him destroying the Massassi en masse.

3. Actually, Freedon Nadd was a Sith for a *century*, in contrast to Kun's year. Another point in Freedon Nadd's favor.

However, even if Freedon Nadd has greater mastery, knowledge, and experience, Exar Kun *does* have the edge in both power (based on feats and the "most powerful"quotes) and lightsaber abilities. I muse (it's hard to really tell when dealing with characters like these, so speculation is needed, if you ask me) that said factors would be enough for him to best Freedon Nadd (which just makes sense to me, since Kun blasted his ass out of existence), but I think your arguments here, at the very least, show they're close.

In my opinion, that was some PIS. I didn't really understand how embracing the dark side could magically open up force reserves. Then again, I don't understand how Nadd's spirit could block Kun's force abilities either. One thing to note though that Nadd was NOT a sith yet, when he came to Yavin IV. He became a sith after studying under Sadow. Before that, he was just aspiring.


I also remember the century quote but I was having trouble reconciling the idea that a human could live well over a century without stasis or some arcane rituals.


What about the quote about Nadd's short lightsaber? Also which most powerful quotes? I wonder if they include guys like Nadd. Raw power may be the only thing Kun has an advantage in and that's also highly debatable, due to Nadd being able to contest Jedi Masters at a very young age.

Also other things to consider. Like you mentioned, 100 years of knowledge vs. 1. All other things being equal or near equal should favor Nadd.
2. Nadd's sagging face. The ONLY other time we've seen the ravages of the dark side affect a user to that degree is Sidious. To me that denotes massive power.
3. Nadd's abilities as a sith spirit. He was one of the only spirits in the mythos that could travel to any planet, and he was able to use the force against living beings such as knocking Vodo back (doing it telepathically across the galaxy).
4. His spiritual presence alone darkened the skies of Onderon for centuries.

There are others but that's all I have this late at night.

So we're going off knowledge and that's it? Kun's already confirmed to have Nadd's knowledge as well as Sadow's, plus "more knowledge than he would ever need" from the Ossus library.

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
So we're going off knowledge and that's it? Kun's already confirmed to have Nadd's knowledge as well as Sadow's, plus "more knowledge than he would ever need" from the Ossus library.

Which becomes a moot point considering Kun was barely alive for 6 months as a sith. Also it's highly unlikely he would have ALL of Nadd's knowledge, seeing as how he didn't have access to Nadd's holocron or Adas' holocron.

As Ant said, Nadd most likely had first dibs on all Old Sith Empire tomes/scrolls/holocrons since the sith were only hunted down on Korriban and the Sith Emperor abandoned those worlds entirely. So that's a point in his favor for knowledge and the 100 years he had to use said knowledge.

You have to remember that this we're dealing with pre-PT material; lots of the concepts regarding the Force weren't fleshed out and largely left to the authors. I always interpreted it as a "once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny" thing; because he embraced the dark side on Korriban, the power of the light was out of his reach forevermore, or something to that effect.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
You have to remember that this we're dealing with pre-PT material; lots of the concepts regarding the Force weren't fleshed out and largely left to the authors. I always interpreted it as a "once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny" thing; because he embraced the dark side on Korriban, the power of the light was out of his reach forevermore, or something to that effect.

Even if I concede this point, I recall he was able to activate the amulet instantly after embracing the dark side. I also don't remember any mention of Nadd having an amulet during his victory over the Massassi (since Nadd gave it to him during his training).

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
In my opinion, that was some PIS. I didn't really understand how embracing the dark side could magically open up force reserves. Then again, I don't understand how Nadd's spirit could block Kun's force abilities either. One thing to note though that Nadd was NOT a sith yet, when he came to Yavin IV. He became a sith after studying under Sadow. Before that, he was just aspiring.
True, but I think he's clearly a dark-side Force-user. He leaves the Jedi wishing to be the greatest Sith sorcerer ever.

Point being, if it was the nexus that blocked Exar Kun's light-side abilities, I don't think the same would have occurred to Freedon Nadd.

If that's not what happened, in which PIS is honestly possible since the situation was unlike anything we seen since, I still don't find the comparison fair.


I think they could, especially with their knowledge of Sith magic. Dooku was in his late eighties and still in the prime of his life.

All the better for Nadd, though.


I think you're thinking of the quote about his blaster. Correct me if I'm wrong though.


Once the most powerful and dangerous of the Dark Lords of the Sith, he was responsible for the deaths of millions four millennia before the rise of the Empire.

I'm inclined to believe his predecessors are being considered because the statement wouldn't be relevant otherwise.

Of course Exar Kun would be the most powerful Dark Lord of the Sith of his day - he was the only one.

They must be comparing him to other Dark Lords of the Sith, such as Marka Ragnos, Freedon Nadd, etc.


Well Kun contended with (actually, straight up bested) Vodo numerous times during their apprenticeship too.



If SWTOR never happened, I'd agree with you. But check out Darth Zash and I'm inclined to believe it's not that relevant.


All dark side spirits have the ability to teleport to other dark side nexus' according to JATM.

http://i97.servimg.com/u/f97/17/73/92/12/bam_oh10.jpg

Note they even use Freedon Nadd as an example, which I highlighted in yellow.


Damn, pretty impressive. I forgot about this feat.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
As Ant said, Nadd most likely
Nice to know Ant's opinion and what could have happened. Doesn't mean jack shit.

Ching, can you quote me on where Kun had Nadd's knowledge?

Is Korriban a nexus? Is Yavin IV? I didn't think either were.


Bah you're correct. I wonder wtf that says about his blaster skills though, lol.


This is vague precisely because he was the only dark lord of the sith and because the last dark lord lived over 1,000 years prior to his birth. Its validity creates more questions when you again consider that Kun was a sith lord for 6 months and logically, there is no way he could compare to most of the powerhouses in that span.


My point is Kun didn't necessarily have the advantage in raw power because Nadd was considered a match for the Jedi Masters as well.


I did forget about Zash's face which makes me question wtf she was studying when much more powerful force users looked like something out of a proactiv commercial.


How many of them had the freedom and flexibility that Nadd possessed? Ragnos only appears when two amulets are put together or enough force energy goes into his sarcophagus. Muur is confined to his talisman. Andeddu to his holocron. Kun to his temples (although I understand that was a product of the Wall of Light), but he still required a ritual. It appears that Nadd just dies and roams the stars, goes wherever he pleases. Nobody in the mythos has that ability as a spirit other than Vitiate/Valkorion. Once again though, I didn't think Yavin/Korriban were dark side nexuses but who knows.

Well, if we're defining a nexus as "any place that is unnaturally strong in the Force," they certainly fit the description. After all, Korriban and Yavin IV are among the greatest dark side focal points in the galaxy.


The best blaster wielder in Star Wars.


Well Freedon Nadd lived in the millennium between Naga Sadow and Exar Kun, so the time span between them should only be in the centuries. I get your point though. However, I think accepting that the quote is referring to other Dark Lords of the Sith is the most logical assumption. And in regards to how Exar Kun could have become so powerful in such a small amount of time, don't forget that he was a prodigy beyond all measures - more so than Freedon Nadd, I imagine. His ability to study and master techniques was likely at an unprecedented rate. Sources point to numerous significant power growths across his career, with him studying dark side practices being the reason.


Interesting argument, but I'm not sure I agree. Obviously not all Jedi Masters are equal, and plus Kun bested Vodo whereas Nadd was ultimately inferior to Tremayne.


Well note that the scan I provided does confirm that spirits have the ability to teleport to dark side nexus' under the basis they are familiar with the place. Perhaps Ragnos' lack of ability to teleport stems from the fact he was confined within Sith Space for all his life. The same applies to Muur, who was stuck on Korriban his entire life. And then Andeddu generally only resided on Korriban and Prakith. Freedon Nadd shouldn't have those limitations. Your point is interesting though, and certainly something to think over.

Is this how we're defining it now? The OT fanboys must be getting desperate.


It's difficult accepting the quote based on our available evidence. If we were talking about your other thread and speed/efficiency were key, then I would also say Kun, although we've seen characters rise fast and have diminishing returns come into play even faster. But if we're talking about overall power, I don't see how Kun fits the bill. Ragnos ruled for over 100 years. Nadd apparently ruled for over 100 years. They both had an excess of sith teachings that Kun didn't have, and over 99 years longer to apply them somehow. At the end of the day, that quote makes no sense based on available information.


He wasn't bested by Tremayne. They fought to a stand still and she turned her saber off. Furthermore, his comparison to the jedi masters was in the force, not saber combat. I won't presume to argue that he's superior to Kun in that aspect. All of the Nadd accolades deal with force abilities.


That's what I'm saying. That quote pretty much contradicts what we know about ALL the sith spirits. Nadd was the only one free from any kind of restriction. I think that speaks to his power more than anything else.

If you take those Sith spirits in SoR to be more than just easter eggs, then Ragnos and Hord appear on Yavin IV.

Originally posted by SunRazer
If you take those Sith spirits in SoR to be more than just easter eggs, then Ragnos and Hord appear on Yavin IV.

I'm fairly certain they're easter eggs though.

I perceive Tulak Hord as the MVP of ancient Sith.

Considering Exar Kun replaced an amped Spirit of Freedon Nadd as a great power in the galaxy, well before his prime, I think we can safely assume Kun > Nadd. That's if we ignore Kun's most powerful ancient Sith quotes, which by the way directly proclaim him to be more powerful than anybody else in the article, including Nadd, Sadow and Qel-Droma.

Also, the Dark Holocron > all Sith Holocrons is canon, but anyway.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Considering Exar Kun replaced an amped Spirit of Freedon Nadd as a great power in the galaxy, well before his prime, I think we can safely assume Kun > Nadd. That's if we ignore Kun's most powerful ancient Sith quotes, which by the way directly proclaim him to be more powerful than anybody else in the article, including Nadd, Sadow and Qel-Droma.

Also, the Dark Holocron > all Sith Holocrons is canon, but anyway.

Let's just review what you said. Because Exar Kun (with his amped amulet), replaced a spirit as a power in the galaxy along with the Keos as the only darkside powers in the galaxy, that puts him above Nadd? That makes zero sense. Go ahead and review that logic for a second. We also don't know what "prime" Kun is since he lasted about 6 months.

As far as his "quotes", there was A quote. Singular.

Remind me where it says the Dark Holocron>all sith Holocrons? Then go ahead and tell me how him having that holocron is relevant if he was able to study it for barely 6 months? You might as well say Kun>Nadd because Kun pillaged the library of Ossus.

I'm laughing at six months, source? Because there are two indications from the DS Sourcebook, that state the war took years, not months. What's with you and Moose peddling this time-table?

Freedon Nadd's spirit, amped by the power of hundreds of Jedi spirits, was sensed by Vodo, who proclaimed that a 'great power' had fallen, and another had risen in its place. Kun goes on to gain 'extreme' powers, before even retrieving the Dark Holocron or the Chamber of Antiquities.

There are two quotes, one of which Ant refers to, the other is from the Official Fact File. The article containing Exar Kun, Freedon Nadd, Ulic Qel-Droma and Naga Sadow, proclaims Exar Kun as the most powerful Sith. This is retconned by Sidious and eventually Vitiate, but that doesn't spare any of the Sith the article refers to.

Have you read any of the New Essential Guides? I'd suggest reading the New Essential Guide of Weapons & Technology.

Originally posted by AncientPower
I'm laughing at six months, source? Because there are two indications from the DS Sourcebook, that state the war took years, not months. What's with you and Moose peddling this time-table?

Freedon Nadd's spirit, amped by the power of hundreds of Jedi spirits, was sensed by Vodo, who proclaimed that a 'great power' had fallen, and another had risen in its place. Kun goes on to gain 'extreme' powers, before even retrieving the Dark Holocron or the Chamber of Antiquities.

There are two quotes, one of which Ant refers to, the other is from the Official Fact File. The article containing Exar Kun, Freedon Nadd, Ulic Qel-Droma and Naga Sadow, proclaims Exar Kun as the most powerful Sith. This is retconned by Sidious and eventually Vitiate, but that doesn't spare any of the Sith the article refers to.

Have you read any of the New Essential Guides? I'd suggest reading the New Essential Guide of Weapons & Technology.

This Kun has also more impressive feats, tbh.

You keep stating these "sources", yet you don't actually state anything. I however, can do a 5 second search to wikipedia (watch you call out this source), and you get this:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Great_Sith_War

Well what do you know, the war took place in the span of 1 year. Giving Kun the absolute benefit of the doubt, he was a sith lord for another...Year maybe? So once again, you have a sith lord who had around 1-2 years to study the dark side (more like 1 unless he was sitting on his ass and not directing his war), versus 2 guys who ruled for around 100 years? Yea, no competition.


Is this your thing now? Quoting sources that don't actually exist? Then randomly making stuff up? Exactly at what point was Nadd's spirit amped by hundreds of jedi spirits? The only thing that housed those jedi spirits was the particular place on Korriban.

As far as the Chamber of Antiquities and the Dark Holocron, who exactly cares? He was around for 1-2 years. Nobody cares how much knowledge he possessed (which you can't quantify anyway). It doesn't begin to compare to Nadd and Ragnos' 100 years with sith knowledge at their disposal.


At no point do I have any idea what you're talking about, because you don't actually provide quotes and you tell me to go "read" stuff. That's not an argument. Your entire "argument" is just grasping at straws. Nobody cares that Kun looted Ossus or had the Dark Holocron. Maybe if the argument was, "who had more knowledge at their disposal", i'd be less inclined to claim Nadd had more knowledge (although I'd argue it). Nothing you've stated puts Kun above Nadd. If you want help, use Ant's quote because I can't dispute the quote itself. What I can dispute is the validity based on all available information, which I've been doing quite successfully.

As far as "Moose", I don't talk to "Moose". But it seems our timeline makes a hell of a lot more sense than yours.

Kun's Dark Lord from 3997 - 3996 BBY, yeah.

@AP - There's also sources that claim it was a whole decade between Malak's fall and the rise of the Sith Triumvirate, even though it was only a year after Malak's fall.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Kun's Dark Lord from 3997 - 3996 BBY, yeah.

@AP - There's also sources that claim it was a whole decade between Malak's fall and the rise of the Sith Triumvirate, even though it was only a year after Malak's fall.

Right. So Kun was a sith lord for barely a year, therfore his knowledge repository is irrelevant.

AP's only leg to stand on at this point is that 1 quote which again, one can debate the legitimacy of.

Depends on how much time he spent studying. Isn't there a source that claims that he studied everything from Sadow's legacy on Yavin IV? And he studied the Dark Holocron, among others.

EDIT: Nadd is the one who was stated to study everything. Kun's just stated to have access to all of Sadow's treasures. However, Kun did supersede Sadow in terms of Alchemical mastery, so that might be a reflection of his knowledge.

What do you mean? Assuming he studed for the entire time as a DLOTS (unlikely), he still managed barely a year. It's not possible for him to have studied everything from Sadow, since (as your edit indicates), Nadd did that, put it into his holocron, and Bane spent a decade studying it.

Sure I'll grant you alchemical mastery but that can just be due to the fact that it didn't interest Nadd. I'm hoping this is enough to stop the narrative of Kun>Nadd. Nadd has too much in his favor.

Well, knowledge is one thing, and if we take the TotJ Companion Guide, then there's few beings who are more knowledgeable than Nadd. Kun's more powerful, though, per TCSWE and that Fact File quote.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Well, knowledge is one thing, and if we take the TotJ Companion Guide, then there's few beings who are more knowledgeable than Nadd. Kun's more powerful, though, per TCSWE and that Fact File quote.

What are the exact quotes? Like I said I can't dispute the quotes, I can just try and dispute the validity based on the information we have on both characters. Nadd had overwhelming knowledge, a century of rule, enough to fill a decade's worth of sith knowledge into a holocron, etc.

Kun had one year with arguably less knowledge available to him. If you don't look at the quotes, it becomes pretty evident, correct?

Well, it's claimed that the knowledge died with Kun, not Nadd, in JATM. So Kun probably did have access to that knowledge. As for how quickly he studied it, no idea.

The Fact File quote is this:



The TCSWE quote is this one (retconned to be "once the most powerful", so that Palpatine could remain supreme):

Ant and I were discussing this quote because he really was the only dark lord of the past 1,000 years.


Well, with the retcon that just puts him into the "powerful" category and not necessarily above Nadd. The first quote may be the harder one to argue.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Ant and I were discussing this quote because he really was the only dark lord of the past 1,000 years.

Well, with the retcon that just puts him into the "powerful" category and not necessarily above Nadd. The first quote may be the harder one to argue.

Nadd was only 400+ years before Kun. And he's a DLotS as well. How does that affect the Fact File quote anyway? Nadd was on the same page that Kun was proclaimed to be the most powerful.

I feel as though the TCSWE quote refers to all Dark Lords up to Kun's time, since it's plural. It doesn't make sense for it to be referring to, you know, himself.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Nadd was only 400+ years before Kun. And he's a DLotS as well. How does that affect the Fact File quote anyway? Nadd was on the same page that Kun was proclaimed to be the most powerful.

I feel as though the TCSWE quote refers to all Dark Lords up to Kun's time, since it's plural. It doesn't make sense for it to be referring to, you know, himself.

Was Nadd a DLOTS though? I remember a contradiction of sources that state he wasn't.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Was Nadd a DLOTS though? I remember a contradiction of sources that state he wasn't.

Well, the Fact File quote refers to all Sith Lords, not just Dark Lords.

Are you referring to this quote, btw?



If so, then Nadd did claim a kingdom, so he'd satisfy the quote above, which kind of suggests that he was already a Dark Lord but needed to "validate" that by getting a kingdom, which, of course, he did.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Well, the Fact File quote refers to all Sith Lords, not just Dark Lords.

Are you referring to this quote, btw?



If so, then Nadd did claim a kingdom, so he'd satisfy the quote above, which kind of suggests that he was already a Dark Lord but needed to "validate" that by getting a kingdom, which, of course, he did.

The contradicting sources also claim that Nadd killed Sadow, or that since there could only be one DLOTS, Nadd left Yavin and went to Onderon. I just don't think Nadd was canonically a DLOTS.

I just found this quote from JATM:

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
The contradicting sources also claim that Nadd killed Sadow, or that since there could only be one DLOTS, Nadd left Yavin and went to Onderon. I just don't think Nadd was canonically a DLOTS.

Nadd did kill Sadow.

But if nadd killed sadow, why did his spirit magically turn up a few centuries later? You can see my confusion since Nadd was trained by sadow's spirit, not his physical body.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
But if nadd killed sadow, why did his spirit magically turn up a few centuries later?

Because he killed Sadow physically, and Sadow's spirit came back?

It's always been a mess, but TOR's disregard for continuity made things worse by bringing in Sadow's spirit again for no reason. They ended up just saying that Nadd destroyed Sadow in a codex entry, to avoid confusion, I suppose.

And no, later sources like RoT have Sadow surviving the six centuries physically, and TOR has Sadow placing his body in Stasis until Nadd came along. So Nadd killed him physically, and then Sadow's spirit gets wrecked later.

No no, i know sadow placed himself in stasis but all the sources I remember state that it was his spirit training Nadd, unless I'm wrong. Again, the same sources said Nadd didn't kill Sadow.

Nah, every source either says Nadd destroyed Sadow or just leaves it ambiguous. Not that he actually refused to destroy Sadow. But we should be taking the newest sources, which do state that Nadd destroyed Sadow.

Regardless, Nadd's a Dark Lord, per my quote above. Kun's more powerful than him

Setting Kun aside, what about Ragnos? Is he still supreme with respect to Force power from Sadow on back?

I recall a quote that flat out says his reign would have been much shorter had he not set his enemies against each other.

Well, his enemies could've dogpiled him. His supremacy doesn't necessarily prohibit that from happening.

Now that I think about it, this should apply to Pall and his Shadow Hands fighting amongst each other. Perhaps Pall was dogpiled.

Ok so we've established kun has quotes that aren't really backed up by evidence. Not much more to argue.

Yea, I've been checking swtor and they've retconned a lot of things. Oh well, my points still stand. The argument for Nadd is convincing in my opinion but the quotes, if interpreted a certain way, put me on the losing end.

Originally posted by SunRazer

Now that I think about it, this should apply to Pall and his Shadow Hands fighting amongst each other. Perhaps Pall was dogpiled.
Yuhs. Smart guy

Ragnos probably still has the best feat out of all of them (Kun included):

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=e9oTHXBgcfk#t=8m42s

"It seems they lost their powers when the scepter was destroyed."

So basically, simply by existing in the galaxy, the specter of Ragnos could grant hundreds of people (possibly non-Force sensitives) abilities like Force Lightning and Force Drain. The scepter would obviously just be a fraction of the power a living Marka Ragnos would wield.

Interesting. Depends how much of Ragnos power, the Scepter wielded, I could see Ragnos being even more impressive, tbh.

It could also be that they simply drew from te power of the nexi stored in the scepter, which wouldn't be Ragnos' power at all. Take it as you will, though.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
*snip*

It was years:





Now keep sourcing Wookieepedia.

Also Nadd was amped:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11124/111242954/4714295-014+014+characters+-+3996bby+kun4.png

Yet:



Then Kun becomes extremely powerful after dabbling in Sith alchemy:



Then he retrieves the Dark Holocron:











This was fun.

@AP - DE endnotes was way before TotJ was published. It's been retconned.

And the TCSWE quote seems out-of-context. Years later than what?

Originally posted by SunRazer
@AP - DE endnotes was way before TotJ was published. It's been retconned.

And the TCSWE quote seems out-of-context. Years later than what?

There's no need to even address AP. He's using out of date quotes for ULIC. His other quotes prove Kun is a DLOTS. Then he proceeds to argue that an amped Nadd pushed Vodo across the galaxy when the quote clearly states that the amp just allowed Nadd to bring the roof down. Literally NOTHING he quoted helps his argument or even hurts mine. I mean you're arguing one thing and quoting another thing, it's not even an argument.

It really WAS fun AP

It's a she.

Anyways, getting back on topic, I consider Ragnos supreme among the Ancient Dark Lords, likely, though that's unfortunately not supported enough by other material. Kun's the strongest if we're counting him, of course, but I don't consider him an ancient Sith Lord.

Originally posted by SunRazer
It's a she.
Sorry, I can't see sex. I'm gender fluid

Anyways, getting back on topic, I consider Ragnos supreme among the Ancient Dark Lords, likely, though that's unfortunately not supported enough by other material. Kun's the strongest if we're counting him, of course, but I don't consider him an ancient Sith Lord.

But wouldn't Nadd be considered an ancient sith lord? Those quotes really aren't 100% clear. Whatever my argument for Nadd was goes double for Ragnos, since he had even more access to sith knowledge.

Knowledge isn't always a measure of power. Wyyrlok knew more than Krayt, but was weaker. Traya knew more than Nihilus, but was weaker. Ventress knew more than Savage, but was weaker, etc. etc.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Knowledge isn't always a measure of power. Wyyrlok knew more than Krayt, but was weaker. Traya knew more than Nihilus, but was weaker. Ventress knew more than Savage, but was weaker, etc. etc.

But DID Wyyrlok know more than Krayt? We know he knew more esoteric techniques but that's about it.

And while knowledge doesn't always equate to power, all things being equal or near equal, someone studying the force for 100 years should have an obvious advantage over one studying it for barely a year.

Nadd studied for a century?

And yeah, Wyyrlok knows more. It's said in a source that his knowledge is unparalleled or some such, IIRC.

Originally posted by SunRazer
@AP - DE endnotes was way before TotJ was published. It's been retconned.

And the TCSWE quote seems out-of-context. Years later than what?

Years after Nadd declared that Ulic would be 'one of the great ones'.



Concession accepted.

That isn't my argument whatsoever, you baffoon. Nadd was clearly amplifying his powers as a spirit by absorbing the spirits of Jedi Masters and the likes of King Ommin. When Kun destroys Nadd, Vodo senses that Kun replaced Nadd as a great power. Then Kun got far more powerful, collectively, over the following years.

Your argument is pathetic and you should be ashamed to even keep posting quite frankly.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Your argument is pathetic and you should be ashamed to even keep posting quite frankly.

Originally posted by Beniboybling


I know right? I've seen some idiot debaters but this one takes the cake as far as the inability to post anything relevant, yet with all the balls to try and tie it to a relevant debate. I thought it was funny.


Nadd had a century, so did Ragnos. That's 99 years to potentially overtake Kun. Hence my trepidation to accept a quote that again, isn't really backed up by evidence.

So you're just ignoring me then? The denial here is as strong as it was in the Hitler bunker.

You've literally just dismissed all evidence that runs contrary to your argument and then had the gall to insult anyone who calls you out on it. I've seen nothing in the way of a substantive argument from you.

Yes, that usually happens when one's "argument" is so out of touch that replying would just waste my time and embolden you to continue arguing X while posting Y. Also, killer hitler reference


You've provided literally no evidence to support anything you've just said. Sunrazer and I have already taken care of the "argument" part. As you can tell, you're the only one I'm insulting. And wasn't it you who started this discussion with me, offered absolutely nothing, and then started calling me a "baffoon"? Somebody needs a reality check or an introductory course in self awareness

I've provided a mountain of evidence in the face of you insinuating that I was lying and just invented my second reply in our argument, and then dismissed it as worthless to the debate at hand when I provided requested evidence. Please return to your status as 'irrelevant' and leave the adults to the debate.

Kun>Ragnos>Nadd>Rest
/Close Therad

Originally posted by AncientPower
I've provided a mountain of evidence in the face of you insinuating that I was lying and just invented my second reply in our argument, and then dismissed it as worthless to the debate at hand when I provided requested evidence. Please return to your status as 'irrelevant' and leave the adults to the debate.

I am.. By ignoring your absolutely irrelevant nonsense, the adults are back at it. Continue responding to me while getting no response from anybody else.

Also, look up the definition for "mountain".

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Nadd had a century, so did Ragnos. That's 99 years to potentially overtake Kun. Hence my trepidation to accept a quote that again, isn't really backed up by evidence.

Where's it stated that Nadd had a century?

Originally posted by SunRazer
Where's it stated that Nadd had a century?

You provided the source that states Nadd ruled Onderon for a century, did you not?

Not on the last page, at least. But I might just be having short-term memory loss. Can you point out which one in particular?

My bad, it was Ant:

Which one's the century quote?

That's what I'm wondering myself, maybe Ant can provide it.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11124/111242954/4714115-tcswe-v2-361.png

Isn't that the old, retconned source? But I'll take it.

Was it retconned though. Also it took 100 years for the jedi to learn of his atrocities? News must travel at 56k speeds.

That's from TCSWE. Don't know if it was retconned, though.