Flight Edge

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Sin I AM
Gotta scenario. So say u got two basic bricks. Both are super strong, super durable etc..the only difference is one has flight. Now if this were a typical forum match most would side with the flying brick. Citing an "edge" but is that really an edge?

Bare in mind the flying brick doesnt have insane flight speed. Place him around scratch that beneath falcon level. Normal maneuverability.

DarkSaint85
Well, its not going to be a handicap, nor are the two bricks equal.

Hence, an edge.

Even if it is staying at range and throwing stuff (the most basic attack I can think of), its still an edge, all other things being equal.

Sin I AM
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Well, its not going to be a handicap, nor are the two bricks equal.

Hence, an edge.

Even if it is staying at range and throwing stuff (the most basic attack I can think of), its still an edge, all other things being equal.

You're adding things to the equation hun. Featureless environment. No cars, boulders, etc to toss. Two guys with equal stats save one can fly. What advantages does flight add to that typical brick powerset that gives an edge? U still have to close the gap to engage

Faceless808
The flying brick would have an advantage of deciding when to engage and when to withdraw. can't think of anything else off the top of my head.

staxamillion
can the flyer levitate?

Sin I AM
Originally posted by Faceless808
The flying brick would have an advantage of deciding when to engage and when to withdraw. can't think of anything else off the top of my head.

I waa thinking that. He could leave the field more easily and return without pursuit. But i dont see how that's an edge seeing as your opponent is still on land catching his breath and planning his move.

Originally posted by staxamillion
can the flyer levitate?

Sure

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Sin I AM
You're adding things to the equation hun. Featureless environment. No cars, boulders, etc to toss. Two guys with equal stats save one can fly. What advantages does flight add to that typical brick powerset that gives an edge? U still have to close the gap to engage

Like I said, was the simplest thing I could think of.

Other advantages: Executing certain moves are easier. Roundhouse kicks to the head. Throws won't be as effective on him. Headlocks and other submission holds won't be as effective. Low attacks (so being able to attack the legs). Loss of balance would be less of an issue, so again, kicks would be more effective. A reach advantage, on the fliers' terms.

You've done MCMAP, I seem to recall. How would those submission holds etc do, when your opponent can suddenly flip and rotate, so that they're on top, for example?

Faceless808
Originally posted by Sin I AM
I waa thinking that. He could leave the field more easily and return without pursuit. But i dont see how that's an edge seeing as your opponent is still on land catching his breath and planning his move.


But he could engage and disengage to his advantage. Press the fight when he has the upper hand, disengage when the grounded brick has the upper hand. I kinda think that would be a strong strategic advantage.

Faceless808
I also think, by my scenario, that the grounded brick would be forced to be on the defensive most, if not all of the time. The flyer could swoop down for one solid punch, with all his strength and weight and momentum behind it. Wash, rinse, repeat.

DarkSaint85
Or let's say they have similar durability and strength, so neither is KOing each other.

That makes leverage doubly important. The guy with better leverage would be stronger, due to physics.

Something aw simple as a bear hug. They're both equally strong, so the flier who is bearhugging would not have his hold broken, due to leverage.

He then flies. Up up and away.

Then drops the grounded brick. Down, down, to the ground.

Sin I AM
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Like I said, was the simplest thing I could think of.

Other advantages: Executing certain moves are easier. Roundhouse kicks to the head. Throws won't be as effective on him. Headlocks and other submission holds won't be as effective. Low attacks (so being able to attack the legs). Loss of balance would be less of an issue, so again, kicks would be more effective. A reach advantage, on the fliers' terms.

You've done MCMAP, I seem to recall. How would those submission holds etc do, when your opponent can suddenly flip and rotate, so that they're on top, for example?

Good argument. If some had me pinned i suppose flight could be beneficial. Im not so sure throws wouldnt work. Plenty of fliers get tossed before catching their bearings. Sometimes getting knocked miles away. Headlocks wouldnt necessarily be less effective. I mean the non flier still has positive control. If anything he's exerting himself more in a strenuous situation. I sorta agree on the kick advantage...not so much on the reach advantage

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Sin I AM
Good argument. If some had me pinned i suppose flight could be beneficial. Im not so sure throws wouldnt work. Plenty of fliers get tossed before catching their bearings. Sometimes getting knocked miles away. Headlocks wouldnt necessarily be less effective. I mean the non flier still has positive control. If anything he's exerting himself more in a strenuous situation. I sorta agree on the kick advantage...not so much on the reach advantage

Unless you're a weird potato, most people have longer legs than arms.

My legs are now at shoulder level, or even head level. I'll have a longer reach than you. And I reckon my kick would hit harder than my punch (due to my awesome glutes and never skipping leg day).

True on headlocks, I was imagining the flier being able to fly up, and attempt a slam to the ground when placed in a standard headlock.

spetznaz
Originally posted by Sin I AM
Gotta scenario. So say u got two basic bricks. Both are super strong, super durable etc..the only difference is one has flight. Now if this were a typical forum match most would side with the flying brick. Citing an "edge" but is that really an edge?

Bare in mind the flying brick doesnt have insane flight speed. Place him around scratch that beneath falcon level. Normal maneuverability.

Since the purpose of the forum is (in my opinion) rational debate, let's take a real world example.

Real life air combat - there are many variables that got into that equation (e.g. training, situational awareness and AWACs support, wing loading, weapon terminal energy, etc), a simple one is that the aircraft that can be able to engage and disengage at will has an embedded advantage.

Same thing here - even if the flying brick can only fly at slow speeds, he/she can engage and disengage at will, and controls the battle space in 3D (as opposed to 2D for the grounded adversary).

Or to put it another way - I noted someone said you do the USMC martial system. Alright, imagine you're fighting someone as equally skilled as you are. Same skill, same strength, etc. However, this person can also fly at Falcon speeds.

It's not that you cannot win, it is just that you'll be at a disadvantage to him. Maybe significant .

staxamillion
I was just thinking levitation and flying could allow for a more unique fighting style but I am thinking now that is not what the OP meant for.

im assuming that the land brick land speed is equal to or greater than the flying bricks flight speed. if that is the case then the only tactical advantage they can switch it up and like DS said certain moves would be less effective and increased dodging.

Cogito
If you're in the air for whatever reason (knocked in the air, jumped, etc.), you're not subject to falling at the rate of gravity, inability to generate leverage, inability to dodge or redirect yourself, etc.

StyleTime
Well, to play devil's advocate, I'd ask this: Are we talking real life or are we talking comics?

Yeah, it's an advantage in real life. Comics rarely present it that way though. In a typical comic, a flying brick is the exact same as a grounded brick.

Size and numbers are advantages in real life too, but the 115 lb., teenage Batgirl will trounce groups of trained, grown men in comics.

riv6672
Originally posted by Sin I AM
You're adding things to the equation hun. Featureless environment. No cars, boulders, etc to toss. Two guys with equal stats save one can fly. What advantages does flight add to that typical brick powerset that gives an edge? U still have to close the gap to engage
For some reason when posters call each other buddy/pal/hun...the sarcasm really pops in their posts. thumb up

Theres no way flight isnt an edge in a fight even in a featureless environment. Two even fighters and one flies means the fight can get taken to the air. The flier can drop the non flier repeatedly every time they disengage.

Now, you can start adding things about durability negating that tactic or whatevs, but its still something the non flier has to deal with/cant do back.

Sin I AM
Originally posted by StyleTime
Well, to play devil's advocate, I'd ask this: Are we talking real life or are we talking comics?

Yeah, it's an advantage in real life. Comics rarely present it that way though. In a typical comic, a flying brick is the exact same as a grounded brick.

Size and numbers are advantages in real life too, but the 115 lb., teenage Batgirl will trounce groups of trained, grown men in comics.

Comics

riv6672
^^^Advantage, flying hun.

StyleTime
Even in the typical comic?

Sin I AM
Flying bricks hold no advantage over grounded ones in any comic I've read. Could be wrong though

Cogito
Originally posted by Sin I AM
Flying bricks hold no advantage over grounded ones in any comic I've read. Could be wrong though Ok, reverse that. When is the last time you saw a flying brick have no advantage against an equivalent grounded brick? I feel like you're thinking of this in terms of a Hulk vs. Thor situation, which has a lot of other factors involved aside from flight.

Just look at Superman vs. H/P DD to see the flight advantage. Superman was getting his ass kicked a lot less while flying than grounded.

Sin I AM
Originally posted by Cogito
Ok, reverse that. When is the last time you saw a flying brick have no advantage against an equivalent grounded brick? I feel like you're thinking of this in terms of a Hulk vs. Thor situation, which has a lot of other factors involved aside from flight.

Just look at Superman vs. H/P DD to see the flight advantage. Superman was getting his ass kicked a lot less while flying than grounded.

Namor/Thing comes immediately to mind. Supes doomsday doesnt seem like a good comparison there are other powers in play

Delta1938
Slight to moderate advantage depending on how well the flying brick can use it in a fight. On paper, a lot of what DarkSaint has brought up is pretty good. In a comic? I don't see that being used much if at all, unless the character's skill is written up that way.

If we're talking BFR, this can give the flier and advantage depending on how far they can knock/throw each other. I can definitely see like DarkSaint's flier puts the non flier in a bear hug, takes them up and drops them, or Facelees' swooping down putting more momentum. Being able to engage or not less of an advantage in a comic(although going by "real world" logic it would be a more significant advantage).

In comics I've seen flight being a bigger advantage than I'm arguing, but that's on greater speed and maneuverability than your topic, like Superman flying around an opponent making them off balance, bombarding them with multiple super speed strikes(while going around them; though that would be another factor included), or both.

Cogito
Originally posted by Sin I AM
Namor/Thing comes immediately to mind.

That's the only one that fits the criteria that I can think of off the top of my head, and it's a terrible one.

Namor should shit all over Thing underwater, the whole fight was utter PIS

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Sin I AM
Flying bricks hold no advantage over grounded ones in any comic I've read. Could be wrong though

Yes, but when was the last time you had two clones fighting each other, except one had flight? There are usually other factors.

Khazra Reborn
Being able to fly is a massive advantage, I don't know how it would be construed otherwise.

Scoobless
Well.....

Simple lift & drop tactic
More force in pushing matches
Able to take advantage of the environment more easily
Also can move fight to a prefered environment
Easier to evade
Silent motion for sneak attack
Can gain more momentum for ram/slam attacks

Basically any additional ability given to one of two "equal" opponents should turn things in their favour.

Genii96
Originally posted by Sin I AM
Namor/Thing comes immediately to mind. Supes doomsday doesnt seem like a good comparison there are other powers in play

Well namor is a lot stronger than thing and dosent need to use flight advantage,avx aside where he got pinned underwater yet stalemated on land ,he did use flight to slam thing into the ground during their fight on land though

Supermutant
If retard Bizarro can use flight to his advantage, surely any flying brick should be able too. (I know speed played a major factor as well)

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/5/57746/2556477-1932213_bizarro_vs_grundy_super.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/5/57746/2556478-1932214_bizarro_vs_grundy___copy_super.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/5/57746/2556479-1932215_bvg2_super.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/5/57746/2556480-1932216_bvg3_super.jpg

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