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As of ROTS, were Yoda and Palpatine generally considered as equally matched, or was there a gap in power between them?

I got the impression that Yoda was better in sabers and in the force.

Palpatine has been stated to have ultimately gotten the better of Yoda across multiple sources...

The SW Databank states- "Darth Sidious overwhelmed Yoda with the destructive energy of the dark side, and the Jedi Master fled Coruscant.":
https://i.imgur.com/7nzC07o.jpg

Jedi vs. Sith (2016) initially states that the two were "equally fierce", but then goes on to state- " realized that he could not defeat Sidious this time.":
https://i.imgur.com/uPJC8WH.jpg

Galactic Maps (2016) states- " is unable to defeat the Sith Lord in combat.":
https://i.imgur.com/V6USqEt.jpg

The updated Character Encyclopedia (2016) states- "Even the diminutive Jedi's amazing strength and speed, however, are not a match for the devastating fury of a Sith Lord.":
https://i.imgur.com/FbL07II.jpg

Ultimate Star Wars (2019) states- "The full power of the light side and the dark side of the Force is on display during Yoda's clash with Emperor Palpatine. Outmatched, Yoda retreats...":
https://i.imgur.com/MAGKmAL.jpg

And Yoda's timeline in Ultimate Star Wars (2019) states- "Yoda tries to stop Palpatine, the new Emperor, from taking control. He loses, and barely escapes with his life.":
https://i.imgur.com/tfBV1KG.jpg

So how far above Sidious would you say Yoda is in sabers, and how far above Yoda is Sidious in the force?

ok but location plays a factor; Sidious was at a disadvantage in sabers because the tight space they fought in (chancellors pod) allowed zero movement for Sidious.

Conversely, Yoda was at a disadvantage in their Force battle because of his size, he couldn't quite get to Palpatine and he was constantly on the low ground, even them being blown apart at the very end, Yoda flew further based on his size.


Id love to see a fight between the two of them on neutral ground, someplace like the Geonosian Arena then wed get to see who's better because honestly, as of ep 3 they are so close in all aspects that it came down to terrain as a deciding factor in their actual duel

Does location play a factor? I don't know if that was really on Lucas' mind when he wrote that scene. I mean, we see Palpy hurling pods like a madman, when Yoda puts all his concentration on throwing one.

Palpatine had an OH ****!!! Look several times on his face showing me Yoda was superior.

Originally posted by Zentrex
Does location play a factor? I don't know if that was really on Lucas' mind when he wrote that scene. I mean, we see Palpy hurling pods like a madman, when Yoda puts all his concentration on throwing one. Sidious was throwing downward with the aid of gravity. Yoda stopped the downwards force of one and spun it(Sidious wasn't) upwards against gravity with accuracy to the point Sidious was like OH SH!T!!!

I never understood why Yoda left. He was at the very least equal if not slightly stronger. He had nothing left to lose, so why run? I think he could have possible defeated Siddy

Originally posted by Eli Vanto


So how far above Sidious would you say Yoda is in sabers, and how far above Yoda is Sidious in the force? The disparity between them wasn't vast(in both areas), but it was enough.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
Palpatine had an OH ****!!! Look several times on his face showing me Yoda was superior. "OH ****!!!" looks of surprise are ambiguous, and certainly do not imply inferiority.

...Especially given the abundance of canon evidence saying the exact opposite.

Originally posted by Total Warrior
I never understood why Yoda left. He was at the very least equal if not slightly stronger. He had nothing left to lose, so why run? I think he could have possible defeated Siddy I mean, Yoda went into the battle fully prepared to kill Palpatine: "Destroy the Sith, we MUST" -- but he ultimately fled because he knew he couldn't win. If/when Yoda had died trying to defeat Palpatine, it would have crippled the Jedi Order even more, and pretty much guaranteed that they would never rise again.

In canon, almost every possible source indicates that Yoda was "overwhelmed by" Palpatine, "could not defeat" Palpatine, was "not a match for" Palpatine, and "lost to" Palpatine.

But the RoTS script isn't canon? I think in galaxy of adventures or whatever it's called he still has it as well.

That's true.

Palpatine was still shown with his saber in this flashback sequence from Galaxy of Adventures (2019):
https://i.imgur.com/pIAogaC.jpg


And this clip states- " is even skilled enough with the dark side of the Force to defeat Jedi Grand Master Yoda in a lightsaber duel.":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kstNsp5n_eU&t=0m12s

So in canon, he may have just been superior to Yoda across the board.

Originally posted by Total Warrior
I never understood why Yoda left. He was at the very least equal if not slightly stronger. He had nothing left to lose, so why run? I think he could have possible defeated Siddy I agree but it seems 2nd hand kiddy shows nobody is going to watch is canon now over the films.

So butthurt.

I'm unsure how Galaxy of Adventures even contradicts the film, tbh?

In the film, it is never shown, stated, or implied that Yoda disarmed Palpatine in sabers -- that *only* happened in the original RotS script and junior novel(which is, ironically, contradicted by the proper RotS novelization.)

Galaxy of Adventures(which IS canon, like it or not) simply presents the idea that Yoda may not have disarmed Palpatine at all. Palpatine could have simply chosen to put his saber away, in favor of using his superior Force power against Yoda instead. This notion is further cemented by GoA outright stating that Palpatine WAS able to defeat Yoda in a lightsaber duel... Along with the numerous canon sources flatly stating that Palpatine was >.

I don't get why you'd just... Ignore all of that?

Right.

But given the info we have, is it not possible that Palpatine chose to sheathe his saber in between the film's prolonged cut-scenes, in order to attack Yoda with the Force instead?

Originally posted by juggernaut74
Sidious was throwing downward with the aid of gravity. Yoda stopped the downwards force of one and spun it(Sidious wasn't) upwards against gravity with accuracy to the point Sidious was like OH SH!T!!!


Sidious tossed three above his head, against gravity.

Yoda spent most of the TK match trying not to get crushed, even losing his balance in the process. Yoda was only able to counter attack while Sidious was busy laughing and underestimating him.

Originally posted by Dominis
Sidious tossed three above his head, against gravity.

Yoda spent most of the TK match trying not to get crushed, even losing his balance in the process. Yoda was only able to counter attack while Sidious was busy laughing and underestimating him. Sidious had the high ground and was throwing the pods downwards. Yoda caught one stopping the downwards force and put some stank on it and sent it directly upwards at Palpatine making him relocate to a safer position. I don't see a force disparity there.

Equal. Film supports it.

Originally posted by Galan007
I don't get why you'd just... Ignore all of that? The truth is a tough pill for some to swallow, Galan.

1JV2x3p_Qn8

Show me the disparity Sheev.

Galan already did-
Originally posted by Galan007
The RotS script states that Yoda disarmed Palpatine during one of the cut-scenes:
https://i.imgur.com/FADvszA.jpg


But Palpatine has been stated to have ultimately gotten the better of Yoda across multiple sources...

The SW Databank states- "Darth Sidious overwhelmed Yoda with the destructive energy of the dark side, and the Jedi Master fled Coruscant.":
https://i.imgur.com/7nzC07o.jpg

Jedi vs. Sith (2016) initially states that the two were "equally fierce", but then goes on to state- " realized that he could not defeat Sidious this time.":
https://i.imgur.com/uPJC8WH.jpg

Galactic Maps (2016) states- " is unable to defeat the Sith Lord in combat.":
https://i.imgur.com/V6USqEt.jpg

The updated Character Encyclopedia (2016) states- "Even the diminutive Jedi's amazing strength and speed, however, are not a match for the devastating fury of a Sith Lord.":
https://i.imgur.com/FbL07II.jpg

Ultimate Star Wars (2019) states- "The full power of the light side and the dark side of the Force is on display during Yoda's clash with Emperor Palpatine. Outmatched, Yoda retreats...":
https://i.imgur.com/MAGKmAL.jpg

And Yoda's timeline in Ultimate Star Wars (2019) states- "Yoda tries to stop Palpatine, the new Emperor, from taking control. He loses, and barely escapes with his life.":
https://i.imgur.com/tfBV1KG.jpg


IOW, Yoda may have been slightly above Palpatine in sabers(if you go by the original RotS script), but Palpatine > Yoda with the Force. Originally posted by Galan007
That's true.

Palpatine was still shown with his saber in this flashback sequence from Galaxy of Adventures (2019):
https://i.imgur.com/pIAogaC.jpg


And this clip states- " is even skilled enough with the dark side of the Force to defeat Jedi Grand Master Yoda in a lightsaber duel.":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kstNsp5n_eU&t=0m12s

So in canon, he may have just been superior to Yoda across the board.

You're just too pig headed to accept it. You'd rather that your own personal interpretation of their fight in the movie (which was riddled with cutscenes) take precedence over the facts that have been detailed in canon.

Sheev>Yoda. Accept it.

I see so you can't.

My personal opinion of their battle in the movie is irrelevant (as is yours). Canon has been kind enough to provide us with a ton of evidence saying that Sheev>Yoda.

Are you actually this ignorant or are you just trolling?

Yeah I mean canon is canon, whether we like it or not. ermm

Originally posted by Sheev
My personal opinion of their battle in the movie is irrelevant (as is yours). Canon has been kind enough to provide us with a ton of evidence saying that Sheev>Yoda.

Are you actually this ignorant or are you just trolling? The movie contradicts those fact files or whatever was posted above.

I'm thinking you're trolling.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
Sidious had the high ground and was throwing the pods downwards. Yoda caught one stopping the downwards force and put some stank on it and sent it directly upwards at Palpatine making him relocate to a safer position. I don't see a force disparity there. Originally posted by juggernaut74
1JV2x3p_Qn8


2:48 Sidious lifts three far above his head, against gravity. He also maintains some in the air while throwing others and ripping out more.

If Yoda was Palpatine's exact equal, and it being so much easier just to pull one down and let gravity do the rest, like you say, then why didn't Yoda just pull one (or even a couple) down on Sidious's head while Sidious was lifting multiple against the force of gravity?

I mean it is implied in canon that Sheev's preferred form is actually Jar'kai. So even if Yoda and Mace defeated him in sabers only in canon it could be argued that Sheev was at a disadvantage with both weapons.

Either way, I've always viewed it as Sidious wins 51:49 against Yoda. With Yoda being better in sabers and Sidious being more powerful in the Force. This is backed in the movie where Sidious retreats to the Grand Convocation Chamber because he's being overwhelmed in his office. In a confined room Yoda can likely take the win but in any environment where Sidious can take advantage of his superior force powers, Yoda takes the L.

Originally posted by Dominis
2:48 Sidious lifts three far above his head, against gravity. He also maintains some in the air while throwing others and ripping out more.

If Yoda was Palpatine's exact equal, and it being so much easier just to pull one down and let gravity do the rest, like you say, then why didn't Yoda just pull one (or even a couple) down on Sidious's head while Sidious was lifting multiple against the force of gravity?

Are you seriously arguing that Yoda is incapable of doing the same thing? lol

Originally posted by ares834
Are you seriously arguing that Yoda is incapable of doing the same thing? lol


Of course Yoda can do it, but probably not while being forced to evade them when being thrown by someone who can do it quicker and easier.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
The movie contradicts those fact files or whatever was posted above.

I'm thinking you're trolling.
The movie never showed Sidious get disarmed. Nor did it imply that he was Yoda's equal. If anything, it shows that Yoda escaped because he didn't think he could keep it up.
Originally posted by juggernaut74
Palpatine had an OH ****!!! Look several times on his face showing me Yoda was superior.
That was right when Yoda gained a bit of a second wind.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
I mean it is implied in canon that Sheev's preferred form is actually Jar'kai.
Really? That's kinda cool, where's it implied?
Originally posted by ares834
Are you seriously arguing that Yoda is incapable of doing the same thing? lol
The movies do make Yoda seem far weaker than he is in the EU. Remember he struggled to lift a bundle of pipes in AtoC.

Originally posted by Sheev
My personal opinion of their battle in the movie is irrelevant (as is yours). Canon has been kind enough to provide us with a ton of evidence saying that Sheev>Yoda.

Are you actually this ignorant or are you just trolling? In teens of power the film shows them to be equals. Light fighting darkness. It is a pretty easy concept to grasp. Look at the power exchange at the end where he comes off as winning only to have yoda able to absorb and redirect his fl. Only reason he fell off the pod is he was closer to the end at the time they were both hit by the blowback of the blast.

Palpatine is far more cunning I give wisdom edge to yoda. Sidious manipulated under the guise of an ally having a galactic army and Vader wipe the Jedi from the map. He was not man enough to want any piece of yoda on his own. He tried fleeing like a coward and you claim he is far more powerful. Makes no sense on any level save selective reasoning to reach a biased conclusion favoring Palpatine.

Yodas own words, IF SO POWERFUL YOU ARE WHY LEAVE?

I don't see how you could say Sidious>Yoda in force powers other than variety at the time of ROTS.

They're shown clearly as equals in their final exchange of the force

In raw force power that is, obviously Sidious has the more deadly abilities.

But there's not information to say they're anything other than equals without assuming stuff.

Originally posted by Scizard
I don't see how you could say Sidious>Yoda in force powers other than variety at the time of ROTS.

They're shown clearly as equals in their final exchange of the force

In raw force power that is, obviously Sidious has the more deadly abilities.

But there's not information to say they're anything other than equals without assuming stuff. Sidious was offense yoda was defense in their power exchange in which they stalemated. The force tends to balance out light and dark in the end. Snokes dialogue confirms Reys power surged just to match Kylos rise in power. Yin to yang.

Originally posted by Dominis
2:48 Sidious lifts three far above his head, against gravity. He also maintains some in the air while throwing others and ripping out more.

If Yoda was Palpatine's exact equal, and it being so much easier just to pull one down and let gravity do the rest, like you say, then why didn't Yoda just pull one (or even a couple) down on Sidious's head while Sidious was lifting multiple against the force of gravity? Yoda stopping the downward momentum and redirecting back upward directly at Palpatine is more impressive imo.

I still don't get what people are trying to contest here?

Some of you may have thought they looked like equals in the movie, but several canon sources have Sidious as Yoda's superior.

You don't just get to handwave all of that info away because you don't like it lmao.

It's interesting, because if you *only* used the films as evidence, then you might be inclined to think that Yoda and Dooku were peers during AotC -- there was no overt disparity between them that I can recall in the film.

...But thanks to supplementary material, we know that Yoda was far and away superior to Dooku. Same basic thing applies here: the film isn't the only canon evidence we have to go by where Yoda and Palpatine are concerned. Everything counts, whether you agree or not.

So basically you can pick your source.

Make sense.

It's not a matter of "picking your source."

It's a matter of using the abundance of canon evidence at hand to draw a logical conclusion. In this case, there are no less than 7 different sources(some of which are very recent) telling us that Palpatine > Yoda, and not one source I've yet to come across saying the opposite.

You are entitled to your opinions, but unfortunately, personal interpretations of their fight in RotS do not supersede established canon. Now, if the film had said something to the effect of: "Yoda and Palpatine were equal", or "Yoda could have bested Palpatine", I would completely understand where you're coming from -- but obviously no explicit statements like that were provided in the film(much like Yoda's fight with Dooku in AotC)... That's where all the other canon sources come into play.

It seems to me that you just don't like(or agree with) the canon info I posted, so you're acting like it is irrelevant... But that's simply not how the canon system works. Canon > fan opinions.

So does this 2nd hand canon material take precedence over the movie?

Multiple canon sources supersede your personal interpretation of their fight in the film, yes.

Do you also think Dooku ~ Yoda based on their fight in AotC, or are you also willing to accept the canon sources putting Yoda definitely above Dooku at the time?

Originally posted by Galan007
Multiple canon sources supersede your personal interpretation of their fight in the film, yes.

Do you also think Dooku ~ Yoda based on their fight in AotC, or are you also willing to accept the canon sources putting Yoda definitely above Dooku at the time? I remember back in the day the multiple souces such as handbooks, trading cards, encyclopedia's etc. used to say Colossus was Class 100 but everybody was like NOPE the comics don't show it!!! Man times have changed.

Yoda is above Dooku yes.

The canon system with standard Marvel/DC comic book characters is much different than it is with the SW franchise.

In Star Wars, everything released since 2014 is just as canon as the films themselves.

In raw force ability they are equals. In sabers I'd say Yoda is slightly better.

Originally posted by Eli Vanto
As of ROTS, were Yoda and Palpatine generally considered as equally matched, or was there a gap in power between them?
Sidious>/= Yoda. They're basically equal, but secondary sources have gone over the moon to negate the notion that yoda is > sidious(one someone culd reasonably interpret from the fight). Sources are fairly split on whether yoda is an equal or slightly below, so the logical conclusion is that sidius edges it.

Originally posted by Galan007
It's interesting, because if you *only* used the films as evidence, then you might be inclined to think that Yoda and Dooku were peers during AotC -- there was no overt disparity between them that I can recall in the film.

...But thanks to supplementary material, we know that Yoda was far and away superior to Dooku. Same basic thing applies here: the film isn't the only canon evidence we have to go by where Yoda and Palpatine are concerned. Everything counts, whether you agree or not.
Eh, dooku being far less powerful than yoda isn't really established anywhere. All that's established is he's more powerful.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Eh, dooku being far less powerful than yoda isn't really established anywhere. All that's established is he's more powerful. https://i.imgur.com/Aitq2PW.jpg
"Yoda is half the size of Count Dooku, but has twice the power."

So during AotC, canon Yoda was 2x Dooku.

Originally posted by Galan007
https://i.imgur.com/Aitq2PW.jpg
"Yoda is half the size of Count Dooku, but has twice the power."

So during AotC, canon Yoda was 2x Dooku.
I wasn't aware of that. Still we have a levy f quotes that suggest yoda couldn't just insta-stomp dooku, and I'd say it's supported by the fight.

I'll also add that Yoda~Dooku isn't really supported by the film given that dooku basically concedes the duel. There's also the matter of Dooku barely being able to rediirect the lighning yoda shoots at him while yoda has no issue just absorbing dooku's.

So really, I don't think dooku vs yoda is a good example for your point. Nothing suggests equality and there is evidence they weren't equal.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
I wasn't aware of that. Still we have a levy f quotes that suggest yoda couldn't just insta-stomp dooku, and I'd say it's supported by the fight. According to Starwars.com their fight was described as "furious".

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
I wasn't aware of that. Still we have a levy f quotes that suggest yoda couldn't just insta-stomp dooku, and I'd say it's supported by the fight.

I'll also add that Yoda~Dooku isn't really supported by the film given that dooku basically concedes the duel. There's also the matter of Dooku barely being able to rediirect the lighning yoda shoots at him while yoda has no issue just absorbing dooku's.

So really, I don't think dooku vs yoda is a good example for your point. Nothing suggests equality and there is evidence they weren't equal. I think you didn't quite understand what my point was...

Originally posted by Galan007
I think you didn't quite understand what my point was...
Your point was, correct me if I'm wrong, "You shouldn't just rely on your interpretation of a fight" and then you used dooku vs yoda an example of a fight one could interpret as showing parity even though I don't really see how you can intepret the fight that way without ignoring things that explicitly happen.

I agree with your point, but I don't think yoda vs dooku is a god example to illustrate it.

More or less.

Just saying that if you *only* used the film as evidence, then there really didn't seem to be much of a disparity between Yoda and Dooku when they fought. As with any battle, it is completely subjective and open to interpretation -- that's just my take on it.

But because of the canon supplementary material at hand, we know that Yoda was indeed more powerful than Dooku... And by a HUGE margin.

Same basic thing applies to Yoda vs. Palpatine. Even if you didn't think there appeared to be much of a disparity between them in the film, an abundance of canon evidence still suggests that Palpatine was indeed superior... So in canon, RotS Palpatine > Yoda, regardless of your personal interpretation of their fight in the film.

Originally posted by Galan007
More or less.

Just saying that if you *only* used the film as evidence, then there really didn't seem to be much of a disparity between Yoda and Dooku when they fought. As with any battle, it is completely subjective and open to interpretation -- that's just my take on it.

But because of the canon supplementary material at hand, we know that Yoda was indeed more powerful than Dooku... And by a HUGE margin.

I get your point, but irrc, weren't there a a lot of supplementary sources that put dooku as close to yoda? Dooku also is established as a peer t mace often and mace himself is placed on yoda/sidious's level by lucas himself.

Also, his is nitpicking, but while there are complimetary sources that put sidious ahead of yoda, there are many which say they're equals. Yoda=sidious is probably a fair interpretation as well.

I'm just talking about canon.

Legends is another matter.

Originally posted by Galan007
I'm just talking about canon.

Legends is another matter.
Ohh. Yeah I wouldn't know about what canon says regarding dooku and yoda.

Yoda vs sidious is still split between sidious winning and the fight being a stalemate as far as supplementary materials is concerned.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Yoda vs sidious is still split between sidious winning and the fight being a stalemate as far as supplementary materials is concerned. How so?

There are multiple canon sources which indicate that Palpatine was superior -- I posted them on the first page.

Originally posted by Galan007
How so?

There are multiple canon sources which indicate that Palpatine was superior -- I posted them on the first page.
Because there are multiple canon sources which say they're equal?

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Because there are multiple canon sources which say they're equal? I want to agree with you but I'm not sure there is.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Because there are multiple canon sources which say they're equal? Such as?

And even if there are multiple canon quotes stating they're equal, are they more recent than everything provided here?

Originally posted by Galan007
Such as?

And even if there are multiple canon quotes stating they're equal, are they more recent than everything provided here? Interesting, all the sources I was thinking off seem to have been published before 2014. There was one trading card guide i recall from after the merger, but I can't find it, and that's probaby doesn't have the same weight as what you've listed. I guess you're right.

The closest thing I can think of is a quote from the 2018 Star Wars Visual Dictionary which states Dookus power in the Force is enigmatic even to Yoda.

And yes I realize it's not the same as being equals to Yoda but your power being enigmatic to Yoda is something.

Well according to the canon Star Wars Visual Dictionary Yoda and Sidious are equals.

During RotS? Maybe. Afterwards? Likely not.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
Well according to the canon Star Wars Visual Dictionary Yoda and Sidious are equals. According to multiple other sources(including some released after the VD) Palpatine had the advantage.

*Also want to note that I don't have a problem with them being equals. Just pointing out that far more canon sources than not tell us Palpatine was superior.

Well this lines up with the movie witch clearly depicted them as equals.

They were near equals, with Palpatine having the slight advantage across the board(as confirmed in multiple canon sources.) Your personal interpretation of their battle in the film does not change or contradict the abundance of canon material stating that Palpatine was superior.

Like I said before: the AotC film itself certainly did not depict Yoda as leagues beyond Dooku (IMO)... But in canon, Yoda was 2x Dooku during that battle. So that was the canon discrepancy between them at the time, regardless of personal opinion. Same concept applies to Palpatine vs. Yoda.

There's really no need to make things this hard.

Originally posted by Galan007
They were near equals, with Palpatine having the slight advantage across the board(as confirmed in multiple canon sources.) Your personal interpretation of their battle in the film does not change or contradict the abundance of canon material stating that Palpatine was superior.



Personally speaking it seemed to me yoda had the edge given sidious was falling backwards before the explosion, but at some point you need to get with the program.

It's possible there was a point of time sidious was intended to get lucky(the deleted scene seems to support that), but that's ancient history.

Exactly.

Prior to all of this information surfacing, I had always considered them to be about equal -- with Palpatine perhaps having a very slight edge in the Force, and Yoda perhaps having a slight edge in sabers.

But it's different now. Palpatine was simply better across the board(as several sources indicate)... Not much better, but still better.

either way, it just shows how strong the Dark Side really is, that Sidious could equal or surpass Yoda with 50 years training under his belt compared to yogas 800 years of it

Yeah I really don't like that tbh. I've personally always wanted Yoda to be a little bit more powerful with Sidious just getting lucky at the end, although I don't really like how they even use sabers in the first place, kinda wish they were beyond that by this stage.

Palpatine is very powerful but prone to bad judgement. This much is apparent from his battles with Mace Windu and Yoda respectively.

Palpatine succeeded in electrocuting Yoda ; perfect opportunity to subjugate/eliminate Yoda right then and there but Palpatine got cocky instead and wasted precious time gloating (i.e. lapse in judgement), giving Yoda sufficient time to recover and mount an offensive of his own.

What a bummer.