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Do you guys think Kenobi was able to beat Maul so easily because he was just that much better, thanks to his greater connection to the Force and him protecting Luke.

Or do you think it had more to do with Maul trying to use the same killing strike on Kenobi that he used on Qui-gon, and Kenobi was just prepared to counter it?

The latter.

Yeah The latter.

Was supposed to display the mindset of both combatants.

Also note Filoni wanted it to be a very brief fight but S7 Maul vs Ashoka to be an extended fight, despite outright stating Maul is clearly her superior.

Also given Rebels Maul looked fairly on par with Rebels Ahsoka, how much difference could there realistically be between him and Ben Kenobi?

https://i.imgur.com/pY1MBqb.jpg

Kenobi and Maul's final duel wasn't a traditional lightsaber duel, it was a psychological battle. It's almost like Kenobi had some psychological advantage over Maul that's akin to the psychological advantage he had over Anakin. Kenobi will always have Maul and Anakin's number, he knows them too well.

Originally posted by YousufKhan1212
Kenobi and Maul's final duel wasn't a traditional lightsaber duel, it was a psychological battle. It's almost like Kenobi had some psychological advantage over Maul that's akin to the psychological advantage he had over Anakin. Kenobi will always have Maul and Anakin's number, he knows them too well.


An astute observation.

Originally posted by Eli Vanto
Do you guys think Kenobi was able to beat Maul so easily because he was just that much better, thanks to his greater connection to the Force and him protecting Luke.

Or do you think it had more to do with Maul trying to use the same killing strike on Kenobi that he used on Qui-gon, and Kenobi was just prepared to counter it?
Filoni literally stated "maul can't beat kenobi". They may be circumstances for the shortness of the fight. That kenobi is superioir is pretty indisputable though.

Originally posted by Eli Vanto
Do you guys think Kenobi was able to beat Maul so easily because he was just that much better, thanks to his greater connection to the Force and him protecting Luke.

Or do you think it had more to do with Maul trying to use the same killing strike on Kenobi that he used on Qui-gon, and Kenobi was just prepared to counter it?

Kenobi's just better.

Maul shouldn't have mentioned Luke though. It was at that point that he really ****ed up.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Maul shouldn't have mentioned Luke though. It was at that point that he really ****ed up.


True say.


Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Filoni literally stated "maul can't beat kenobi". They may be circumstances for the shortness of the fight. That kenobi is superioir is pretty indisputable though.


The question is how/why hes superior though. And everything Filoni states indicates their frame of mind at this point. Saber skills or power in the Force are never mentioned as a factor for Ben being superior, except for when (as Pr mentioned), it came to protecting Luke which gave Ben that extra dose of invincibility.

I think up until that point, Kenobi would have let Maul walk if he'd changed his mind. But then Maul says what he says, and Obi-Wan realises that Maul has to die. IMO it's why he only ignites his lightsaber at that point.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I think up until that point, Kenobi would have let Maul walk if he'd changed his mind. But then Maul says what he says, and Obi-Wan realises that Maul has to die. IMO it's why he only ignites his lightsaber at that point.


It is yeah, but it also gives Kenobi that mind set that he HAS TO win this fight no matter what.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
It is yeah, but it also gives Kenobi that mind set that he HAS TO win this fight no matter what.

Yup.

And it's unfortunate for Maul that he's going up against Kenobi in one of his most powerful forms.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I think up until that point, Kenobi would have let Maul walk if he'd changed his mind. But then Maul says what he says, and Obi-Wan realises that Maul has to die. IMO it's why he only ignites his lightsaber at that point.

It was made very clear, yes.

People get too caught up in "training" and "skill" and treat the Force as if it's something mechanical, a mana pool that allows you to move big rocks. But the Force is spiritual, it's metaphysical. I guess you can say it was "mindset" but that word doesn't quite capture it either, it's more appropriate for a tennis match or a cooking competition.

Kenobi won because he was at his strongest, Maul lost because he was at his weakest. Spiritually.

Kenobi at that point reached a moment of "oneness", a clarity and an unshakable sense of purpose to protect the child who he knew was the hope for a better galaxy. That's a Jedi at his finest. There was no way he could lose in that moment, not against anyone.

Maul at that point was half-mad and waiting to be put out of his misery. For the whole episode he was wandering through the desert mindlessly muttering to himself and having hallucinations. By that point he had spent decades wallowing in hatred, despair, self-pity and grief. He probably wanted to die.

In my opinion, at that point it's useless to compare them in terms of "saber skill" and "TK feats". It's as simple as this: Kenobi won because he was a winner, Maul lost because he was a loser.

Originally posted by YousufKhan1212
Kenobi and Maul's final duel wasn't a traditional lightsaber duel, it was a psychological battle. It's almost like Kenobi had some psychological advantage over Maul that's akin to the psychological advantage he had over Anakin. Kenobi will always have Maul and Anakin's number, he knows them too well.
Astute observation.

You have grown powerful in the ways of the psychology, the scholar I sense in you...

^ Kenobis always mowing down my favourite characters. Like literally cuts them into pieces.

Such a f***er

Originally posted by Unbowed
People get too caught up in "training" and "skill" and treat the Force as if it's something mechanical, a mana pool that allows you to move big rocks. But the Force is spiritual, it's metaphysical. I guess you can say it was "mindset" but that word doesn't quite capture it either, it's more appropriate for a tennis match or a cooking competition.

Kenobi won because he was at his strongest, Maul lost because he was at his weakest. Spiritually.

Kenobi at that point reached a moment of "oneness", a clarity and an unshakable sense of purpose to protect the child who he knew was the hope for a better galaxy. That's a Jedi at his finest. There was no way he could lose in that moment, not against anyone.

Maul at that point was half-mad and waiting to be put out of his misery. For the whole episode he was wandering through the desert mindlessly muttering to himself and having hallucinations. By that point he had spent decades wallowing in hatred, despair, self-pity and grief. He probably wanted to die.

In my opinion, at that point it's useless to compare them in terms of "saber skill" and "TK feats". It's as simple as this: Kenobi won because he was a winner, Maul lost because he was a loser.

That is deep and rich....

Many are focused on evaluating FEATS in isolation instead of looking at developments in a deeper context like that. This is the impact of too much focus on versus topics instead of understanding characters on a deeper level.

That fight personifies the extent to which mental clarity and emotional solidarity can impact a battle.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Kenobi's just better.

Maul shouldn't have mentioned Luke though. It was at that point that he really ****ed up. Wasn't it confirmed that Maul improved as of Rebels?

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Wasn't it confirmed that Maul improved as of Rebels?

Not that I know of.

Matt Martin claims that if anything he was older and out of practice.

Although as Galan points out his Force powers should only increase over time going by Leias quote in TROS.

Regardless I agree with points brought up in this thread, that if Maul is weaker its more likely due to his broken mind than being out of practice.

Wheras Ben Kenobis pristine clarity of his mission in life and lessons learned from the failure of the Jedi (look what I have risen above!), likely puts his connection to the force at its peak, despite the fact that he probably isnt using his Lightsaber very often.

Yeah Ben Kenobi is definitely at his peak as Force power is concerned, it was really just his body and prowess with a blade that deteriorated.

Did he, though? At least, by any considerable margin? We know that Jedi can be old men and still ridiculously good duelists (Dooku), and we know that Obi-Wan was willing to let Vader kill him.

I mean, REBELS starts what, only a few years before ANH, and we saw Kenobi in that.

Originally posted by -Pr-
We know that Jedi can be old men and still ridiculously good duelists (Dooku),


The only difference there id say is Dooku was still always keeping his skills up by training Ventress and Grievous. Not to mention getting into numerous fights against Jedi. And in his pre-Sith days hed have Jedi on his level and above to spar (Yoda and Mace).

However Ben (as far as we know), would not have the opportunity to keep his duelling skill as sharp.

That said he clearly showed hes still got it every time he did need to get into a Saber fight.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
The only difference there id say is Dooku was still always keeping his skills up by training Ventress and Grievous. Not to mention getting into numerous fights against Jedi. And in his pre-Sith days hed have Jedi on his level and above to spar (Yoda and Mace).

However Ben (as far as we know), would not have the opportunity to keep his duelling skill as sharp.

That said he clearly showed hes still got it every time he did need to get into a Saber fight. Yeah, after his exile it was stated that Kenobi would go years without ever touching his lightsaber:
https://i.imgur.com/a3Di1yd.jpg

And by the time of ANH, it was stated that he'd become physically weaker as well... Though I suppose you could argue that his increased connection to the Force could have made up for his diminished physicality.

Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah, after his exile it was stated that Kenobi would go years without ever touching his lightsaber:
https://i.imgur.com/a3Di1yd.jpg

And by the time of ANH, it was stated that he'd become physically weaker as well... Though I suppose you could argue that his increased connection to the Force could have made up for his diminished physicality.

Wasn't it later in that comic he started training again?

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Wasn't it later in that comic he started training again?
Yep. Additionally that's a long time away from rebels. So yeah, he very well may have improved given filoni saying he grew as a duelist.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Wasn't it later in that comic he started training again? I don't know if he actually started training with his lightsaber regularly, but he did start using it again here and there(when it was an absolute necessity.)

But for what it's worth, later comics also make it a point to note that he'd gotten a bit clumsy and out of practice over the years:
https://i.imgur.com/Y4MzAh8.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/UvzdR5k.jpg

So I don't think he was doing many saber drills during his time in exile -- but perhaps he started getting back into it by the Rebels-era. /shrug

Yeah He clearly would only use his lightsaber if absolutely necessary. He had to hide hes a Jedi after all.

And as a duelist, who would he spar against? I guess he could practice deflecting against that flying training orb, but unless he had tons of them, that wouldnt really push him very hard.

And Filoni never said he grew as a duelist. He said that another long drawn out fight with Maul would suggest no growth. But that was mostly a psychological battle, so the growth he was referring to was likely maturity and mental clarity. And growth as in learning from his past fights against Maul.

Yeah, it's really hard to say where Kenobi was skill-wise by the time of Rebels/ANH.

As you said, his casual defeat of Maul had very little to do with skill, and everything to do with spiritual growth/mindset.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
True say.





The question is how/why hes superior though. And everything Filoni states indicates their frame of mind at this point. Saber skills or power in the Force are never mentioned as a factor for Ben being superior, except for when (as Pr mentioned), it came to protecting Luke which gave Ben that extra dose of invincibility.
The reasons given are intrinsic character traits to both characters. Kenobi's emotional growth is represented in his superiority as a fighter. The "dose of invincibility" isn't a thing that's said anywhere. :/


Weird I don't see "maturity" and mental clarity" anywhere here:



Yes thor, if a long fight --doesn't show growth--, then a shorter fight would --show growth--. This only makes any sort of sense if there's --growth-- to show. :/

Originally posted by Galan007
I don't know if he actually started training with his lightsaber regularly, but he did start using it again here and there(when it was an absolute necessity.)

But for what it's worth, later comics also make it a point to note that he'd gotten a bit clumsy and out of practice over the years:
https://i.imgur.com/Y4MzAh8.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/UvzdR5k.jpg

So I don't think he was doing many saber drills during his time in exile -- but perhaps he started getting back into it by the Rebels-era. /shrug
Maybe getting more powerful was sufficient to compensate for any rustyness. Either way, given that he has some level of scaling with Ahsoka, and the quote i cited above, I don't really think we should assume it's a situation of "he got worse as a duelist but...", he may have just gotten better. Old canon didn't like that, but then again, old canon didn't really like the idea of vader being an anakin+ force god.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
The reasons given are intrinsic character traits to both characters. Kenobi's emotional growth is represented in his superiority as a fighter. The "dose of invincibility" isn't a thing that's said anywhere. :/


Weird I don't see "maturity" and mental clarity" anywhere here:



Yes thor, if a long fight --doesn't show growth--, then a shorter fight would --show growth--. This only makes any sort of sense if there's --growth-- to show. :/


If that were his only quote you might have had a point.

But for those of us who have read all his comments on that fight, on top of Witwers and canon sources, it becomes pretty evident it was all down to the mental state of both characters. The protecting Luke thing was specifically mentioned as an invincible moment for Ben (Invincible as far as Maul is concerned).

Nowhere does Filoni state Kenobi was superior due to sword skills or force mastery.

Plus as youve pointed out Mauls scaling to Ahsoka and hers to Vader, doesnt really leave room for too much of a gap between Maul and Kenobi in combat skill.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
If that were his only quote you might have had a point.

If you could actually post these quotes and show how they prove what you're arguing, you would have made your first argument here.

Those of us? Are you really using popular opinion. Kenobi wasn't superior to maul when he beat him and filoni explicitly said "maul can't beat filoni" is a fringe opinion the vast majority of sw community doesn't take seriously. Filoni said maul can't beat kenobi period. Show a contradiction or concede. Their "mental state" is reflected in their combative growth per filoni, so i have zero clue what saying "it's down to mental state" is supposed to prove.

No it was not, lmao. Post the quote already.

I never claimed a big gap.

Why the hell does he need to state that. Kenobi won, and maul "can't beat kenobi." You're claiming that the latter is a result of an external app, one you have yet to provide proof for.

^ Can't edit and missed out 5:

5) The whole saber fight was stated to be Beyond a lightsaber fight, and more of an expression of their characters.


Also there's a bit of a f*** up there with the italics, so I should have put the quotes in inverted commas, and can't edit now. But I'm sure you'll figure out where Filoni's quotes end and where my comments start.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
The only difference there id say is Dooku was still always keeping his skills up by training Ventress and Grievous. Not to mention getting into numerous fights against Jedi. And in his pre-Sith days hed have Jedi on his level and above to spar (Yoda and Mace).

However Ben (as far as we know), would not have the opportunity to keep his duelling skill as sharp.

That said he clearly showed hes still got it every time he did need to get into a Saber fight.

Oh, I'm not trrying to claim he was as sharp as he was in ROTS. He was obviously fairly out of practice by the time ANH comes around. Just not to the point someone like Maul was, I imagine, because Kenobi could supplement any rust with his stronger connection to the force.

I was more talking about how I don't think age is as much a barrier to Jedi as it is to most people. Yoda and Dooku being prime examples of old bastards that were still able to go.

Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah, after his exile it was stated that Kenobi would go years without ever touching his lightsaber:
https://i.imgur.com/a3Di1yd.jpg

And by the time of ANH, it was stated that he'd become physically weaker as well... Though I suppose you could argue that his increased connection to the Force could have made up for his diminished physicality.

Weaker why? Age or some sort of outside influence?

Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah, it's really hard to say where Kenobi was skill-wise by the time of Rebels/ANH.

As you said, his casual defeat of Maul had very little to do with skill, and everything to do with spiritual growth/mindset.

Not sure I agree, but I'm guessing we would have different ideas of skill?

For me, knowing to feint, drawing Maul in and tricking him counts as skill. Not the same kind of skill that had him flipping over a four-armed Grievous and the like, but still skilfull.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Weaker why? Age or some sort of outside influence?

Living on Tatooine - as a hermit, to boot - took its toll on him:



https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/12269/did-obi-wan-age-normally

I'm more than sure Galan will gladly elaborate on that or confirm it.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Weaker why? Age or some sort of outside influence? Like Stilt mentioned, Kenobi's years on Tatooine weren't kind to him -- the binary suns and harsh desert climate sped up his aging process. Keep in mind that he was canonically just 57 years old here:
https://i.imgur.com/JmjADvQ.jpg

But a few different sources mention that he had grown physically weaker by the time of ANH.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Not sure I agree, but I'm guessing we would have different ideas of skill?

For me, knowing to feint, drawing Maul in and tricking him counts as skill. Not the same kind of skill that had him flipping over a four-armed Grievous and the like, but still skilfull. Oh he was definitely still skilled. Just saying that the encounter itself had a lot to do with their respective mindsets in that moment. In terms of spiritual enlightenment and overall connection to the Force, Kenobi had grown immensely over the years, and he was also protecting someone greater than himself. Maul, on the other hand, hadn't really grown at all in that respect -- he was still fixated on the past, and was fully consumed by his emotions/revenge-lust.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Living on Tatooine - as a hermit, to boot - took its toll on him:



https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/12269/did-obi-wan-age-normally

I'm more than sure Galan will gladly elaborate on that or confirm it.

Originally posted by Galan007
Like Stilt mentioned, Kenobi's years on Tatooine weren't kind to him -- the binary suns and harsh desert climate sped up his aging process. Keep in mind that he was canonically just 57 years old here:
https://i.imgur.com/JmjADvQ.jpg

But a few different sources mention that he had grown physically weaker by the time of ANH.

Oh he was definitely still skilled. Just saying that the encounter itself had a lot to do with their respective mindsets in that moment. In terms of spiritual enlightenment and overall connection to the Force, Kenobi had grown immensely over the years, and he was also protecting someone greater than himself. Maul, on the other hand, hadn't really grown at all in that respect -- he was still fixated on the past, and was fully consumed by his emotions/revenge-lust.

Ah okay. It almost seems counter-intuitive. Jedi can get really old and still perform. Obi-Wan gets more powerful in the force, and even has an actual mission, but still gets weaker because... Tatooine is a shithole, I guess.

Oh okay. Mindset definitely had a lot to do with it.

Your powers are weak, old man.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Your powers are weak, old man.

Hey. For all we know that could just be Vader being his usual overdramatic self.

Or perhaps he just meant Kenobi was weak compared to himself.

When I left you, I was but the learner. Now I am the master.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Or perhaps he just meant Kenobi was weak compared to himself.

When I left you, I was but the learner. Now I am the master.

He would say that, though. The flamboyant prick.

lol, sorry, I just love that write-up about how ridiculously overdramatic Vader is in everything he does.

As usual, your evidence doesn't actually prove what you say it does. What you are trying to prove here is that Kenobi beating maul was circumstantial:

What Kenobi has grown until isn't an external buff. Furthermore your quote specifcally is saying "why kenobi doesn't want to kill maul", not why he ends up beating him.

Dismissed.


Oh I'm so happy you reminded me of this, because it literally proves that thing you said there wasn't proof for. Maul is not as good as Kenobi, so he can't parry his blows. THe last sentence is "why" maul is not as good as kenobi. Maul is however, "not as good" as Kenobi.

Kenobi is superior to Rebels Maul.




The moment is not attributed to protecting Luke. Protecting Luke is why he fights. "Knowing who he is" is why he wins. For this to be circumstantial, you need to show that Kenobi wouldn't usually "know who he is." If that's an intristic aspect of his character, he will always be that strong. Which would mean that on top of Maul "not being good as kenobi" specifcially being why maul isn't shown parrying too many of kenobi's strikes, "you", who in this situation is clearly maul, "can't beat him." Nothing you've cited implies extenuating circumstances. Characterization is not an external amp, it is something that is often expressed in fights, and as the second quote shows, filoni specifcally used his authority as an author to express kenobi's character growth by being maul's better in a fight.



Galan, i direct your attention to the second quote. Kenobi pretty clearly implied to be maul's combative superioir, even if it was intended a reflection of character growth.

I don't really see the point of sticking to pre-disney's conception of kenobi. We have quotes that imply both combative and power growth, and we have the feat of kenobi beating someone who can't be insta-stomped by ahsoka. At this point, I think it's more than suffecient to accept Disney Kenobi as peaking post rots, much like Vader.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Hey. For all we know that could just be Vader being his usual overdramatic self. That particular statement could have definitely been Vader throwing a little dun moch at Kenobi... Because I doubt Kenobi's "powers" were actually weaker at all -- Rebels/ANH was almost certainly his peak in that respect.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Galan, i direct your attention to the second quote. Kenobi pretty clearly implied to be maul's combative superioir, even if it was intended a reflection of character growth. I don't think Kenobi was unskilled in the slightest, but I do think the "growth" Filoni mentions is primarily in regard to Kenobi's spiritual/emotional evolution as a character, and not necessarily his growth as a warrior.


I posted this earlier, but Ultimate Star Wars (2019) states that Kenobi was able to "catch Maul off guard" by feigning Qui-Gon's fighting style:
https://i.imgur.com/pY1MBqb.jpg

Which makes sense when you look at the respective stances they took just before engaging Maul:
https://i.imgur.com/qvjzONP.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/H9HRaHj.jpg


Moreover, Jedi vs. Sith (2016) states: "Obi-Wan was older and weaker" during his fight with Vader in ANH.

And A Guide to Weapons of the Force (2018) states: "Obi-Wan's movements were slowed by age and lack of practice" during his fight with Vader in ANH.


Granted, the fight with Maul took place 2 years before ANH, but the point still stands: Kenobi had become physically weaker over the years. His defeat of Maul had a great deal to do with his vastly superior mindset and inner growth as a character(along with him luring Maul into a false sense of security by feigning Qui-Gon's fighting style.) I'd say Kenobi's skill as a swordsman took a backseat to those primary factors. /shrug

Originally posted by Galan007
His defeat of Maul had a great deal to do with his vastly superior mindset and inner growth as a character(along with him luring Maul into a false sense of security by feigning Qui-Gon's fighting style.)


I dont think those are two separate points. I think luring Maul
In using Qui-Gons stance was a direct reflection of where both their mindsets were at.

Yeah, Maul being stuck in the past and letting his emotions/revenge-lust fully consume him is exactly WHY he took Kenobi's bait. He even tried to use the same damn strikes that he used to kill Qui-Gon, ffs.

Kenobi had mentally/spiritually evolved. Maul hadn't(at least when it came to fighting Kenobi.)

Yeah and Kenobi KNEW it.

He Knew Exactly to trigger Maul and exactly how hed respond.

Originally posted by Galan007
I posted this earlier, but Ultimate Star Wars (2019) states that Kenobi was able to "catch Maul off guard" by feigning Qui-Gon's fighting style:
https://i.imgur.com/pY1MBqb.jpg

Which makes sense when you look at the respective stances they took just before engaging Maul:
https://i.imgur.com/qvjzONP.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/H9HRaHj.jpg I didn't see this before. That actually makes a lot of sense.

Originally posted by Galan007
That particular statement could have definitely been Vader throwing a little dun moch at Kenobi... Because I doubt Kenobi's "powers" were actually weaker at all -- Rebels/ANH was almost certainly his peak in that respect.

For me it goes back to that conversation where I asked about whether we should mentally "scale up" ANH Vader vs Kenobi in our minds to be a fight more in line with the prequels. I'm not trying to argue canon or anything. My opinion is just that it's hard for me to think Kenobi had declined that much if we're supposed to believe that he could hang with Vader in ANH.

And Vader by then was monstrous.

^ To line it up with canon, just think of Ben Kenobi being a simpler fighter now, without all the flashy acrobatics. And Vader fighting him likewise, as hes more cautious against him after what happened in ROTS.

Its part of the reason they wanted Ben vs Maul to be so short, to make Bens style in line with ANH. So a long fight like that against a Maul doing his usual acrobatics might have looked kinda silly.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Yeah and Kenobi KNEW it.

He Knew Exactly to trigger Maul and exactly how hed respond.

Meh, he wasn't trying to trigger him. He wanted to avoid the conflict.

Was there some verbal ownage? Sure, but it wasn't exactly Obi's goal to get Maul all riled up. He was just being honest (another one of his Jedi traits).

But once Maul figured out Kenobi had a purpose on Tatooine... the fight was inevitable.

^ I meant once the fight began. Once Maul started working out about Luke.

He took Qui-Gon's stance because he Knew where Mauls mind is at. Where it's always been since his resurrection. That fight on Naboo.

Originally posted by Galan007
Moreover, Jedi vs. Sith (2016) states: "Obi-Wan was older and weaker" during his fight with Vader in ANH.

And A Guide to Weapons of the Force (2018) states: "Obi-Wan's movements were slowed by age and lack of practice" during his fight with Vader in ANH.

Granted, the fight with Maul took place 2 years before ANH, but the point still stands: Kenobi had become physically weaker over the years. His defeat of Maul had a great deal to do with his vastly superior mindset and inner growth as a character(along with him luring Maul into a false sense of security by feigning Qui-Gon's fighting style.) I'd say Kenobi's skill as a swordsman took a backseat to those primary factors. /shrug

In addition to the two sources that you quoted, stating that Ben declined during this exile, we also have this source:



It explicitly states that Ben declined as a duelist because he was slowed down by age, Star Wars in 100 Scenes was published in August 2014, I think that makes it Disney Canon.

And on the topic if Filoni's views on Ben Kenobi, I don't think we should commit double standards when appealing to Filoni's remarks about Ben Kenobi experiencing GROWTH! because the exact same Dave Filoni had the following to say about Kenobi's PRIME!

https://twitter.com/ariesanakin/status/1259205536488329219?s=21

Granted, prime is a broad term and isn't necessarily synonymous with peak, but it appears that Filoni thinks Obi-Wan's best years as a fighter is during the Prequel era, hence the why he says TPM Kenobi is in his "prime" in that clip. I highly doubt that Filoni thinks that Kenobi's prime extends from the Prequel era.... All the way to Rebels era, that doesn't really make any sense, plus the intepretation of Filoni's remarks about GROWTH! in that Rebels Recon also flies in the face of at least 3 published sources that state Ben declined during his exile.

Originally posted by -Pr-
For me it goes back to that conversation where I asked about whether we should mentally "scale up" ANH Vader vs Kenobi in our minds to be a fight more in line with the prequels. I'm not trying to argue canon or anything. My opinion is just that it's hard for me to think Kenobi had declined that much if we're supposed to believe that he could hang with Vader in ANH.

And Vader by then was monstrous. I've said this before, but in terms of spiritual/emotional growth, and his overall connection to the Force, Rebels/ANH was definitely Kenobi's peak. Even his dialogue with Maul, simple as it was, did a great job showing us just how much he'd evolved as a character over the years.

But in terms of Kenobi's combat skills as a warrior, I'd still say RotS was his peak. That's not to say Rebels/ANH Kenobi was unskilled, but furthering his saber skills just isn't what Kenobi was focused on during his years in isolation. That's likely why a few different sources mention that he'd become physically weaker and less skilled over the years.

But as Leia stated, increased age often strengthens one's connection to the Force:

Which further helps justify Rebels/ANH Kenobi being more powerful in that regard.


As for their fight in ANH: it was stated that Vader was initially being cautious against Kenobi -- testing his skill/power. He didn't want to make the same mistakes he had during their last encounter(ie. being an overconfident dipshit.) I reckon that's why their battle lasted as long as it did, especially since Kenobi commented mid-battle that he had absolutely no chance of defeating Vader.

Yeah Vader was deliberately compromising his offensive output when he fought Ben because of the traumatic experience of being maimed on Mustafar.

Originally posted by YousufKhan1212
Granted, prime is a broad term and isn't necessarily synonymous with peak, but it appears that Filoni thinks Obi-Wan's best years as a fighter is during the Prequel era, hence the why he says TPM Kenobi is in his "prime" in that clip. I highly doubt that Filoni thinks that Kenobi's prime extends from the Prequel era.... All the way to Rebels era, that doesn't really make any sense, plus the intepretation of Filoni's remarks about GROWTH! in that Rebels Recon also flies in the face of at least 3 published sources that state Ben declined during his exile.


Did you read my posts where I quoted him?

He clarifies its GROWTH! as a character and spiritually. But thats what puts him above Maul in a fight.

Yeah I read it, rocky is just absolutely incorrect.

Originally posted by Galan007
As for their fight in ANH: it was stated that Vader was initially being cautious against Kenobi -- testing his skill/power. He didn't want to make the same mistakes he had during their last encounter(ie. being an overconfident dipshit.) I reckon that's why their battle lasted as long as it did, especially since Kenobi commented mid-battle that he had absolutely no chance of defeating Vader.

Source?

I like it. Reminds me a bit of this JLA/Avengers #2 scene:

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/8/80103/5981018-batman_vs_captain_america_by_ansem3-d4cttqr.jpg

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Source?

I like it. Reminds me a bit of this JLA/Avengers #2 scene:

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/8/80103/5981018-batman_vs_captain_america_by_ansem3-d4cttqr.jpg The novel From a Certain Point of View:

The final episode makes it clear Maul vs tano can go either way. Maul beats her without a saber just as she beat him without a saber previously. Mauls survival on his own without a weapon is one of the greatest feats I can recall. The guy is just a survivor.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Source?

I like it. Reminds me a bit of this JLA/Avengers #2 scene:

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/8/80103/5981018-batman_vs_captain_america_by_ansem3-d4cttqr.jpg


That reminds me more of the Maul/Kenobi finale.


Originally posted by quanchi112
The final episode makes it clear Maul vs tano can go either way.


Maul was the superior fighter in both sabers and in the force.

Originally posted by Galan007
I've said this before, but in terms of spiritual/emotional growth, and his overall connection to the Force, Rebels/ANH was definitely Kenobi's peak. Even his dialogue with Maul, simple as it was, did a great job showing us just how much he'd evolved as a character over the years.

But in terms of Kenobi's combat skills as a warrior, I'd still say RotS was his peak. That's not to say Rebels/ANH Kenobi was unskilled, but furthering his saber skills just isn't what Kenobi was focused on during his years in isolation. That's likely why a few different sources mention that he'd become physically weaker and less skilled over the years.

But as Leia stated, increased age often strengthens one's connection to the Force:

Which further helps justify Rebels/ANH Kenobi being more powerful in that regard.


As for their fight in ANH: it was stated that Vader was initially being cautious against Kenobi -- testing his skill/power. He didn't want to make the same mistakes he had during their last encounter(ie. being an overconfident dipshit.) I reckon that's why their battle lasted as long as it did, especially since Kenobi commented mid-battle that he had absolutely no chance of defeating Vader.

Most of that lines up with the impression i've been getting from rewatches and talking about it in here, so you'll get no argument from me.

Vader not wanting to get ****ed up again is hilarious though.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
That reminds me more of the Maul/Kenobi finale.





Maul was the superior fighter in both sabers and in the force. I agree but he failed to close the deal. That matters but Maul in the final episode surviving on his own with no weapons and beating tano shows why the guy is just so damn badass and hard to kill.

Originally posted by Galan007
The novel From a Certain Point of View:

Hold up, why is all of a sudden this ok for Vader, but prior Canon it wasn't?

I recall this exact same thing coming up within RoDV? Or was in DS? In any case, a source prior also had Vader being cautious, but then people weren't accepting that for Vader because he was that weak or something or another, can't exactly remember the full of it.

Tch...what double standards are we playing at here..

Didn't Legends also have Kenobi's Soresu-haxx in full effect?

Seem to remember a blurb about Vader being unable to penetrate his defenses or somesuch.

Originally posted by Galan007
Didn't Legends also have Kenobi's Soresu-haxx in full effect?

Seem to remember a blurb about Vader being unable to penetrate his defenses or somesuch.

I think so? I honesty can't recall, but there was something about that, but at the same time it still grew to weary Ben and Vader was being cautious.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I agree but he failed to close the deal.


Yeah because he got frustrated she wouldnt join him and made a clumsy attack.

Thats his character weakness.


Originally posted by Zenwolf
Hold up, why is all of a sudden this ok for Vader, but prior Canon it wasn't?

I recall this exact same thing coming up within RoDV? Or was in DS? In any case, a source prior also had Vader being cautious, but then people weren't accepting that for Vader because he was that weak or something or another, can't exactly remember the full of it.

Tch...what double standards are we playing at here..


Probably because Lucas comments took precedent in the old Canon.

That's how it was in Legends, though: G-canon > ALL. Didn't matter if 30 other sources said the sky is blue, if GL said it was red, that was the irrefutable "word of God."

Nowadays GL's word actually can be negated by newer material.

Originally posted by Galan007
That's how it was in Legends, though: G-canon > ALL. Didn't matter if 30 other sources said the sky is blue, if GL said it was red, that was the irrefutable "word of God."

Nowadays GL's word actually can be negated by newer material.

Right, but Lucas clearly did change his mind on stuff, I'm pretty sure that meant his quotes from like...the 70s and 80s are overridden by what he says later. Otherwise is like...Ben Kenobi > Palps now in Legends? I'm pretty sure that was a thing. It's what I'm getting at here.

But anyway, uh...sorry, didn't mean to trail off topic here.

TFU Vader was pretty beastly.

Wish they would bring Starkiller into Canon.

Originally posted by Galan007
The novel From a Certain Point of View:

Thanks

Originally posted by Darth Thor
That reminds me more of the Maul/Kenobi finale.

Nah, Maul/Kenobi was more like this:

https://i.ibb.co/frDxw0b/duel.jpg

Pretty much... Except it only took Kenobi 3 moves.