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okay, so, i've been legit curious about this topic. it's come up a couple times recently. the question is how many times does a character need to show an ability/power for it to count as a legitimate ability in a vs match?

for example, combat speed. in a recent orion thread there were a few good speed feats posted, but the sheer number of feats utterly pales in comparison to the times he hasn't demonstrated combat speed in fights. so do we consider those few feats enough? it's happened with thor any number of times. the surfer suffers from the same issue. i remember people had a similar issue with superman back when he demonstrated t-vo (an ability i don't think was ever formally retconned so could still be viable....).

there are a number of these types of abilities that show up periodically. i guess the question is where do YOU draw the cut off line? if someone has 10 000 appearances, and showed an ability a dozen times, is that sufficient? if they showed it 3 times? what does and doesn't qualify as suitable support for an ability?

i've said in the past i tend to view battles on a spectrum--often out of 10 in my head. i make some allowances for outlying abilities then factor in what i feel are typical powers/tendencies based on what characters do MOST often. but if it's ONE battle, it becomes a lot more difficult. in single battles, how much support IS legitimate support?

I'm with Smurph.

Comic fights aren't forum fights. What may end a comic fight in the first panel (Surfer stopping time for example), would be fair game in a forum fight.

Comic fights are written so the character can struggle - no one wants to see, for example, Gladiator just uppercutting Hulk into space. So he grabs him ,and he chats ,and he uses HV etc etc. In short,PIS. But in a forum? Anything goes.

What limits it, then, is the character. Sure, Thor can transmute and absorb energy and summon storms etc etc....but most times, he wants to go fisticuffs, and just hit things with his hammer. Sure, Superman can cancel vibrations by singing, but 99.99% of the time, he punches really hard.

That's what separates the comic reader from the respect thread reader.

I feel like a lot of this was at least partially referenced in the rules, but I wanna see where you guys go with it.

Really? Which rules do you think deal with this? I see the issue come up a lot I think. I'll use Orion again, because it fits the theme well. He has shown, in some cases, to possess super speed, but not often at all, relative to his appearances. But has it been shown enough to be considered in character, or is there enough legitimate support? I'm not sure using speed would be 'out of character' for him. But not every fight where he doesn't use it is PIS--I think most would agree with that. So is there enough support (Thor's speed has been argued similarly, but Thor has fewer speed feats than Orion (unless we use reaction speed) and Surfer combat speed feats are notorious sticking points in threads) to suggest Orion should be able to use super speed?

I'm legit not sure how to reconcile these types of issues. How much support qualifies as enough to prove something is a viable, in character ability or power?

Originally posted by leonidas
Really? Which rules do you think deal with this? I see the issue come up a lot I think. I'll use Orion again, because it fits the theme well. He has shown, in some cases, to possess super speed, but not often at all, relative to his appearances. But has it been shown enough to be considered in character, or is there enough legitimate support? I'm not sure using speed would be 'out of character' for him. But not every fight where he doesn't use it is PIS--I think most would agree with that. So is there enough support (Thor's speed has been argued similarly, but Thor has fewer speed feats than Orion (unless we use reaction speed) and Surfer combat speed feats are notorious sticking points in threads) to suggest Orion should be able to use super speed?

I'm legit not sure how to reconcile these types of issues. How much support qualifies as enough to prove something is a viable, in character ability or power?

This here, specifically. The mods all pitched in iirc, I was just the one that posted it:

Originally posted by -Pr-
Characters, generally, don't self-sabotage to the point that it will cost them the match, nor will they accelerate to 100 in the over-the-top use of their powers, unless it's something you can prove is a habit of theirs.

So, what IS In Character?

It's something that should easily be boiled down to "How a character will react when put in to a specific circumstance" namely a VS battle. How do we know this, or rather, should we know this? Simple: You can name any one of a dozen, if not two-dozen people on this board that could walk in to the offices of Marvel or DC and, like many other comic fans, be seen as having encyclopedic knowledge of a character or a team. The assumption is that with that knowledge comes a level of understanding of said character. If you're reasonably intelligent, and I know a lot of the people on this board are (even if they pretend to be dense as **** sometimes), understanding a character in broad strokes is not that hard.

For example, I've read less than... I'd say easily less than a hundred Spider-Man comics, but if you asked me to describe his personality, I could draw on said comics even without having seen movies or cartoons or even that weird TV show from the 80s, and tell you that Spider-Man is, deep down, just a person trying to do the right thing. He's a genius but also a nerd. He loves his aunt, he loves (or did love) his wife Mary Jane, and he would feel deeply the loss of anyone he couldn't save. That's simple stuff.

Now, if we talk about powers... I know the base-level stuff. I know he can stick to walls. I know he can shoot webs from web shooters he made himself. I know he has a Spider-Sense that warns him of danger. I know he's strong, durable and fast. Strong enough that he has to pull his punches so that a bank-robber's heart doesn't explode. Fast enough that he's not likely to get hit by gunfire. I have read that he's the most agile person in Marvel, though I don't know if that's true or just was at one point. But he does a LOT of flippy shit in his comics. That said, there are probably a bunch of applications of his powers that I haven't the foggiest idea about.

So, with those two in mind, as limited as it might be, I come to the third part: How Spider-Man fights In Character. How do I get there? Simple. As much as I want to be able to say "You go by how the character behaves, not how you would in their place", you still have to fill in the gaps once you take things like PIS out. But, and this is the important part, you are SUPPLEMENTING them. You are NOT. REPLACING. Shit. What you would do with Spider-Man or any other character's powers is great and all, but it's what leads to powerset v powerset, and is for tourneys, NOT for the general board. This part of the point is incredibly important. You are still operating within the paramaters of what a character WOULD do, as opposed to what they CAN do.

Even from reading the comics I've read, which I've already admitted is not that many in comparison to some of the people on this board, I can still say several things with reasonable certainty when it comes to Spider-Man: His superior agility means most enemies will have a hard time hitting him unless they have some hard counter to it like superior speed. He likes to use his webs, which means that character that specialise in melee are going to have a hard time against him, and Spider-Man KNOWS THIS. Because HE KNOWS THIS, he is smart enough to use this to his advantage. This means that because HE knows he doesn't have to close to melee range, that he won't stupidly decide halfway through the fight to try outpunching someone that could out-punch him. Or to waste time on someone that can be wrapped up with one shot of his webs. He can still get close up and win fights, sure, but that's an option, not a necessity.

Obviously, if someone knows Spider-Man better than I do, I'm going to end up getting corrected in threads when it comes to facts about the character, his power levels or his villains if I say something wrong, but the basic idea is still there. I've seen Spider-Man use his webs enough, to be competent in their use, and to avoid attacks while concentrating on his own, to know that at the very least, it's common behaviour. There's a reason "Spider-Man webs up Character X" is a viable tactic on the forum.

"But Pr," you might ask "What if a character has a power that they use more sparingly?". Well, to that I would say:

-Is it a part of their powerset and has been used occasionally enough (ie, like, a dozen times, maybe) that they won't forget they can use it?
-Can they access this power/ability right now?
-Will not using it cost them the fight?

And that right there? That's arguably the most important question.

If the answer to all three of those is yes, then they're most likely going to use the power/ability. Either their opponent can stand up to it, or they can't.

Is that simple enough? I mean, what else do you really need to know?

For the last part of this point, I'm going to use a character I know a bit better: Wally West. Flash is notorious on the forum, and you could say some of it is earned. Most of it, however, is not the fault of the character. If you, as a poster, put The Flash against someone that does not have the means to hurt him, then that is on YOU. It's not The Flash's fault that he's not going to slow down or trip over a branch just to give a substantially slower character a chance against him. And no, no talking shit about the Rogues, btw; they're all designed from the ground up to fight The Flash. They're not ammo for your favourite street leveller to have a shot against him.

If you put Deathstroke up against Flash and try to argue using Identity Crisis as evidence, you deserve to get laughed out of the thread. Like a whole lot of Marvel and DC, you get a writer that writes interesting character studies, or great fights. You rarely get both, and that fight, as entertaining as it was, should have been over before Deathstroke was even able to exhale.

-Now, continuing to use the Flash, and to briefly talk about the Superman Vs Weapon H thread:

A character like the Flash is not going to get hit by someone substantially slower than him unless they have some counter to his powers. Simple as that. Wally West isn't Superman (and I'm going to get in to this in a later post). He can't afford to get hit more than once or twice before it starts to actually impact his ability to win the fight. And this, at the end of all of this ranting on the subject, is where I try to lay it out as best as I can:

The Flash/Relevant Character X will use, at a bare minimum, the least amount of speed/Relevant Power, that he is capable of using under average/normal circumstances, required to not lose the fight, or get so badly injured that it will most-likely cost him the fight. Every superhero or supervillain has a minimum amount of effort and competence that they will utilise going in to a fight. For villains that's usually a higher starting point because they like to not hold back, sure, but the heroes aren't going to be stupid either. They are not going to self-sabotage, and they will not let pride, ego or forgetting they have a way to win the fight to get in the way.

-If you put Flash up against someone that can't beat him without PIS, that's not his fault. That's yours.
-If you put Shadowcat up against someone that can't get around her intangibility without PIS, that's not her fault. That's yours.
-If you put someone up against Xavier that can't get past his telepathy to push him down the stairs, again, that's not his fault. That's yours.

This whole idea of putting lesser character up against ones they can't (and notice I said can't, not won't) beat just because you like them more? I doubt it's going to stop, but seriously, anyone who does it? You're not being clever. We all see what you're doing. You should stop. You'll be better off.

If you read this far, congrats. I really hope this, or at least part of this, has cleared things up for anyone who wasn't sure. Originally posted by Galan007
I would also add that if the thread starter doesn't want certain abilities/tactics to be used in their thread, all they have to do is specify such in the OP. Problem solved.

We cannot possibly account for every shred of ridiculous BS that certain people might try to argue in threads. All we can do is make blanket rules/generalizations and hope that everyone is adult enough to understand their purpose.

I'm not saying it's applicable to everything you said. I just think it will in parts is all.

You get to choose whichever depending on whether you like the character or not

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Didn't we have this discussion with Weapon H and Superman? Lol.

We did?

This is about a number. Not sure we ever talked about that.

https://www.talksocialtome.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/giphy.gif

Originally posted by leonidas
We did?

This is about a number. Not sure we ever talked about that.

Originally posted by leonidas

again, i would NOT say superman was dumb for deciding to take a hit--even a huge hit. he's been hit, literally, 1000s upon 1000s of times, and it rarely means anything to him. it is rare in comics where he actually EXPRESSES pain, and when he does, it is usually accompanied by sheer surprise. he doesn't 'not dodge' because he's dumb--at least not any dumber than we are for not jumping out of the way of an ant crawling on the sidewalk. the ant still hits me but do i care? i'm pretty sure this mentality has been expressed by superman on panel more than once. THAT mentality is every bit as reasonable as calling PIS in.....almost every single one of his appearances? is it really more reasonable to ignore almost every single showing than it is to accept an alternative explanation to PIS?

honest question for everyone, mods included: how often DOES something have to happen for it to be considered IN CHARACTER? phil and others say that wh should be a statue. in 99.999999% of his appearances, superman definitively does NOT see the world in that way. so how can it possibly be considered IN CHARACTER for him to see the world that way in a forum match?

it seems to me (i may well be alone here) that by saying yes, he can legit, and in character, see wh as a statue, that we are simply and blatantly ignoring the vast, vast VAST majority of superman's showings. wouldn't that disparity be enough to say that seeing wh that way WOULD and SHOULD be considered out of character? if not that, then....what, aside from saying superman tries to kill him, WOULD be ooc?

as i've said, there ARE legit reasons for superman NOT seeing the world this way, and even for getting hit: he'd be bored. he'd feel more alienated. he'd be further highlighting his differences from humans. habit. a genuine sense of near invulnerability. over confidence. a sincere belief he is simply more powerful than whomever he faces based on his huge number of victories. etc... none of those would indicate he is retarded, and all of them reflect areas of his CHARACTER that have been shown in comics--where his character is determined.

maybe i'm over thinking. lol but it feels like falling back on PIS all the time (which happens...a LOT here) really doesn't take into account the character of the character. it feels like the easy way to go and that route devolves quickly into power set battles. there are other forums for that--we usually make fun of them.

so, where is the line between full capacity and character? where do we draw the line between a tiny fraction of high feats and what is considered out of character? legit questions. and my 'hidden agenda' is really not so hidden. i'd just really like to see more, and better discussion in the forum. maybe looking more closely at what is and isn't out of character is a way to engender some of that.



Almost 2 years apart. Then you left the forum for a bit, after mods stepped in and clarified.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Almost 2 years apart. Then you left the forum for a bit, after mods stepped in and clarified.

You make it seem like we forced him out or something lol

Originally posted by -Pr-
You make it seem like we forced him out or something lol

Lol maybe it was carver I'm getting him mixed up with hmm

On a serious note, speed has been beaten to death. I can give you a general answer as far as my opinion on abilities in general, but to go through that particular ability is legit groundhog day. Threads where people don't want other people to get statue'd should have speed equalized or something.

(1)
If the question of the thread is "how many times has an ability have to be used to consider it valid", well, it depends what ability and what you mean by valid . I think the more complex the ability, the bigger the proof has to be that the character will use it enough number of times to be considered "valid" and not sporadic. I.e. while matter manipulation is complex, Firestorm's plethora of proof is more than enough that he will use it. But I don't think it's in the first 8 things somebody like Guy Gardner would use, even if he has that ability. Martian Manhunter would use phasing, Supergirl wouldn't even if they both have that ability.

My general rule of thumb is: If I give a 13 year old general knowledge of the character and his abilities, will he do what is claimed the character would? If yes , he'd blast as powerful as he'd need to in order to win], then that's the starting point, and the rest can be discussed.

(2).
If the question of the thread is "How many times has an ability have to appear in order to be considered as existent?" -- well, on this I think there's a lot of leeway. Technically speaking, to your T-VO example -- I can still argue it exists. It has never been officially removed out of continuity, just not used anymore. But reading the comics, "does Superman have a technique in his backpocket that can counter multiversal reality warpers?" isn't exactly something that rings true.

To quote Smurph:

Maybe a better way to phrase the question is when does something STOP being considered an outlier and become something that can be fairly used in a match?

If it's a canon ability and hasn't been explicitly shown to be gone then it's safe to say it can be used.

If we go by comicvine, everything Superman does is outlier except where he looks bad then it's consistent and everything Thor does is consistency except where he looks bad then it's an outlier. Because Thor and Superman are still peers somehow.

I think this comes up in a lot of threads. For example every time someone tries to compare combat speed between WW and any other high tier.

In the case of characters like Superman, Orion, SS etc I personally see it as coming down to a case of PIS. I mean when you literally have characters that can tank almost anything, punch thru almost anything, blast and destroy almost anything and they have ridiculous combat speed you just can't write a good story if they use all their abilities to their best constantly. I think it's why stories tend to default to them tanking whatever and just powering thru. In the specific case of Orion I don't beleive his peak combat speed is in the same league as Surfernor Supes by any means, he's more than a few tiers below that.

I think (like I said in another thread) for a lot of these characters with uber high levs of durability its more a case of, well it's only going to be like a tickle when henhits me so why bother to dodge. So for example innthe casenof the thread vs Logan, Sablretooth and spidey, I do believe that when they first strike at him they will connect because he wouldn't expect to be harmed. As soon as one of those admantium claws however cuts him and he realizes they are a danger his way of doingnbattle is going to change. It's the same for Thor, he doesn't call on the more isoteric powers of Mjilnor until he realises this opponent isnt someone he's likely to smack down in a brawl. Superman reallynonly uses heat vision or freeze breath when his muscles can't solve it.

Because they cant make a decent story consistently that allows them to use all their powers to their best the plot demands they don't always use them.

What Sin, boks, Smurph and Phildo said.

I mean, not to sound mocking (and apologies if I do)....but just a few days ago you were arguing that Hulk can adapt by growing organs, even though he's done something only tangentially related, once, maybe twice in his thousands of appearances.

You DID say it was unlikely, but that it WOULD happen.

Now we're talking about an even simpler power, that of speed. If Orion has hypersonic punches, and can throw them at supersonic speeds in a canon comic, and hasn't lost them....why can't he do it here?

Anything assumed here can be false. For example; Galactus once upon a very long time ago, beat the shit out of the Sphinx, and placed him in a time loop to repeat his ill fated life over and over again. I don't recall him ever doing so after that. This does not mean that we can automatically assume that he lost that ability.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
What Sin, boks, Smurph and Phildo said.

I mean, not to sound mocking (and apologies if I do)....but just a few days ago you were arguing that Hulk can adapt by growing organs, even though he's done something only tangentially related, once, maybe twice in his thousands of appearances.

You DID say it was unlikely, but that it WOULD happen.

Now we're talking about an even simpler power, that of speed. If Orion has hypersonic punches, and can throw them at supersonic speeds in a canon comic, and hasn't lost them....why can't he do it here?

Physically adapting as you know is an innate ability. How often is the Hulk placed in situations that his body has to adapt to his environment? Did he do it again on his return to Earth from Sakaar? Can a particular writer forget, or just flat out not realize that the Hulk's body can adapt to it's environment?

That's my point.

Leo was arguing that Hulk could, and thus, would.

So why forget that line of reasoning with Orion and speed?

Orion like all characters has a level of speed, but there are levels that may be above his. He's fast but not quite revered as a comic book speedster until you place him against a slow moving Mammoth type of character. In this case, consistency may be interrupted by another writer that fails to realize, or simply accept him as a speedster.

How we jumped to the conclusion that he's a speedster in the first place is the type of reasoning that I'd be interested in understanding.

No one said he was a speedster, though.

Just that he had superspeed. For example, when fighting Superman their punches were creating sonic booms so powerful, it was blowing windows out around the city they were fighting in.

That's obviously NOT speedster level. But it's fast.

The question for me is: why *wouldn't* an immensely seasoned warrior(like Orion, since he's been a topic of discussion lately) use all of the base/rudimentary physical attributes in his arsenal if he needed to..?

Granted, I would agree that Orion is, more times than not, portrayed as a brawler-type. That said, a few of his past feats show us that he possesses *some* degree of enhanced combat speed... And, so far as we know, this hasn't been removed from his repertoire. So if Orion were fighting an opponent with similar physical attributes to his own, what logical reason would he have to *not* use his own speed to its optimum efficiency under the full capacity rule of KMC..?

Same concept applies to pretty much any character with enhanced speed, tbh: if they have the ability to dodge a strike that could potentially injure them, why would they just stand there and allow themselves to get hit by said punch?


For example: my 2 year old occasionally likes to run up and try to slap my 8 year old in the face. So what does the 8 year old do if she sees the 2 year old winding up for a slap? She instinctively jukes out of the way with her superior combat speed to avoid the strike.

Maybe not the best analogy, but you get my point...

Yeah, I had the same question/analogy back when discussing Weapon H/Superman.

Hell,we don't even need to use kids. 'Dumb' animals like dogs and cats would flinch and dodge out of the way if you attack them. A fly would zip out of the way if it detects you trying to attack them.

Yet somehow, we throw that all out and say Orion/insert character here are dumber than a fruit fly, lol.

I can see an argument being made for Orion wanting to test his mettle in a battle, but that's it

Originally posted by Bentley
You get to choose whichever depending on whether you like the character or not
Originally posted by abhilegend
If we go by comicvine, everything Superman does is outlier except where he looks bad then it's consistent and everything Thor does is consistency except where he looks bad then it's an outlier. Because Thor and Superman are still peers somehow.

We did the same post.

so what about Jane Thor for example? Pulling out the motherstorm seems to be damn near one of her go to moves and to me that is basically ramping it up to 100.

Originally posted by abhilegend
If we go by comicvine, everything Superman does is outlier except where he looks bad then it's consistent and everything Thor does is consistency except where he looks bad then it's an outlier. Because Thor and Superman are still peers somehow.

I've always wondered what board lowballs Superman the most. CV, Herochat or something else?

Originally posted by Stoic

How we jumped to the conclusion that he's a speedster in the first place is the type of reasoning that I'd be interested in understanding.

No conclusion of him being a "speedster" was made.He was in a thread vs Logan, Sabertooth and Spiderman and all that is being presented is that he is fast enough to dodge their attacks.

As I said earlier here in a normal fight I do expect Logan or sabertooth to tag him initially because he wouldn't think they would be a threat. Once he realises admantium claws etc can cut him he should dodge them fairly well.

Speed is one of those things that is natural and innate. A character does not have to consciously think about using it. If a character possesses speed then they will automatically use it if they come to the conclusion that is the only way not to lose.

Other powers are different and requires thought and creativity. This is where character plays a bigger role. Surfer may or may not think about some of the many abilities he possess in a particular fight. He mostly thinks about blasting and flying around. He may resort to other tactics if blasting is not getting the job done.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
What Sin, boks, Smurph and Phildo said.

I mean, not to sound mocking (and apologies if I do)....but just a few days ago you were arguing that Hulk can adapt by growing organs, even though he's done something only tangentially related, once, maybe twice in his thousands of appearances.

You DID say it was unlikely, but that it WOULD happen.

Now we're talking about an even simpler power, that of speed. If Orion has hypersonic punches, and can throw them at supersonic speeds in a canon comic, and hasn't lost them....why can't he do it here?

sigh....you're completely missing the point. this isn't about hulk growing organs. or orion throwing punches at super speed. this is about how many times does hulk need to grow organs for it to be considered valid and not an outlier ability? how many times does orion need to fight at hypersonic speed for the power to be considered valid in a vs match? is it still valid for someone to use superman's t-vo in a vs match though he hasn't shown it in a million issues?

again, when does something STOP being an outlier, and instead become something that can be reliably used in character in a match?

i didn't think this was that difficult. people see agendas everywhere. /shrug

nice.

i can get behind that. if it's a case by case thing that makes it very difficult and often subjective but that's a fair answer imo.

the only thing i would say to further clarify is this: valid here, as regards a power/ability, is intended to mean is fairly available for use by posters as legit abilities to call upon for a character in a vs match that is also IN character.

in the hulk case, it's not ooc for him to adapt--some may call it that, but the term doesn't quite seem to fit for me. it's more a case of ltd showings.

perhaps the issue in the thread is that people just decide an invalid feat is automatically OUT of character? maybe that's why some are conflating my earlier thread with this one. i DO NOT see the issue as being the same at all.

another example might be nate grey and time stop. i've seen it argued any number of times that nate can simply stop time to win a match, or i see his 'plank time' feat called upon constantly as a reference for his speed/reactions. nate has only ever stopped time once, yet, as i said, people seem fine in general with calling upon that power in vs matches. likewise with the plank time feat.

the point of the thread to try and get a better understanding of why something like that is considered by many to be 'valid' but other single-showing or extremely ltd showings, are not. is there a number of times a feat needs to be performed for it to be considered in character? i think i get what you're saying smurph--you think it's dependent on both the story, and the nature of the ability. that's a messy answer though!

but...maybe you're right and it's simply an issue that does NOT have any kind of a simple answer. and that's fine too.

Originally posted by leonidas
nice.

i can get behind that. if it's a case by case thing that makes it very difficult and often subjective but that's a fair answer imo.

the only thing i would say to further clarify is this: valid here, as regards a power/ability, is intended to mean is fairly available for use by posters as legit abilities to call upon for a character in a vs match that is also IN character.

in the hulk case, it's not ooc for him to adapt--some may call it that, but the term doesn't quite seem to fit for me. it's more a case of ltd showings.

perhaps the issue in the thread is that people just decide an invalid feat is automatically OUT of character? maybe that's why some are conflating my earlier thread with this one. i DO NOT see the issue as being the same at all.

another example might be nate grey and time stop. i've seen it argued any number of times that nate can simply stop time to win a match, or i see his 'plank time' feat called upon constantly as a reference for his speed/reactions. nate has only ever stopped time once, yet, as i said, people seem fine in general with calling upon that power in vs matches. likewise with the plank time feat.

the point of the thread to try and get a better understanding of why something like that is considered by many to be 'valid' but other single-showing or extremely ltd showings, are not. is there a number of times a feat needs to be performed for it to be considered in character? i think i get what you're saying smurph--you think it's dependent on both the story, and the nature of the ability. that's a messy answer though!

but...maybe you're right and it's simply an issue that does NOT have any kind of a simple answer. and that's fine too.

Arguing in character is extremely easy. What's more difficult is whether the character still has that ability.

Lets discuss the latter.
I would say if a character hasn't used a power for about 10-20 years then it is safe to say they don't have it anymore.
10-20 years is just a proposal. We can say the last 2 runs or last 5-10 years or something. I don't know.

Originally posted by leonidas
sigh....you're completely missing the point. this isn't about hulk growing organs. or orion throwing punches at super speed. this is about how many times does hulk need to grow organs for it to be considered valid and not an outlier ability? how many times does orion need to fight at hypersonic speed for the power to be considered valid in a vs match? is it still valid for someone to use superman's t-vo in a vs match though he hasn't shown it in a million issues?

again, when does something STOP being an outlier, and instead become something that can be reliably used in character in a match?

i didn't think this was that difficult. people see agendas everywhere. /shrug Personally, I don't think it's feasible to make a blanket generalization, like: "character A needs to have preformed 'x' amount of times over the years, in order for it to be a usable ability on the forum"... But I also think there is a distinction between the type of feats being discussed.

For example, I see base physical powers/attributes(like combat speed, for example) in a completely different light than some of the more exotic abilities(like T-Vo.)

Combat speed(be it offensive or defensive) is something that even an untrained ock with child-level intellect would instinctively utilize whenever possible during a fight(ie. "If I'm fast enough to NOT get punched... I'm not going to let myself get punched." So if a particular character has displayed enhanced combat speed at some point(s) over the years(however sparse), and said showings have not been retconned or flagrantly contradicted by other material, I believe it's reasonable to believe they could/would use their natural speed in a forum fight.

...Highly exotic one-offs, on the other hand? Different story.



But again, that's just my opinion. /shrug

Hope people understand that characters like Hulk himself even have showings of being mentioned and showing him having SUPER speed. We are either looking at consistency or a characters capabilities. If we are looking at capabilities, Hulk dance around Darkseid, Mangog and Kalibak without getting touched. If it's consistency we are looking at, then he would get punched by Darkseid, Mangog and Kalibak.

Also, in regards to speed, yes, it's a natural ability but so is Surfers matter manipulation along with his other 100s of abilities since all of it naturally dwell on the power cosmic.

Originally posted by carver9
Hope people understand that characters like Hulk himself even have showings of being mentioned and showing him having SUPER speed. We are either looking at consistency or a characters capabilities. If we are looking at capabilities, Hulk dance around Darkseid, Mangog and Kalibak without getting touched. If it's consistency we are looking at, then he would get punched by Darkseid, Mangog and Kalibak.

That's completely wrong.

I mean, you tried to make a decent point, sure, but your examples were awful.

Originally posted by -Pr-
That's completely wrong.

I mean, you tried to make a decent point, sure, but your examples were awful.

... I feel that even if my point was solid, you'll still disagree with it. You're my Joker (and yes, I'm batman).

Originally posted by carver9
... I feel that even if my point was solid, you'll still disagree with it. You're my Joker (and yes, I'm batman).

facepalm

Say something that's actually true, and we'll see.

Originally posted by leonidas
okay, so, i've been legit curious about this topic. it's come up a couple times recently. the question is how many times does a character need to show an ability/power for it to count as a legitimate ability in a vs match?

for example, combat speed. in a recent orion thread there were a few good speed feats posted, but the sheer number of feats utterly pales in comparison to the times he hasn't demonstrated combat speed in fights. so do we consider those few feats enough? it's happened with thor any number of times. the surfer suffers from the same issue. i remember people had a similar issue with superman back when he demonstrated t-vo (an ability i don't think was ever formally retconned so could still be viable....).

there are a number of these types of abilities that show up periodically. i guess the question is where do YOU draw the cut off line? if someone has 10 000 appearances, and showed an ability a dozen times, is that sufficient? if they showed it 3 times? what does and doesn't qualify as suitable support for an ability?

i've said in the past i tend to view battles on a spectrum--often out of 10 in my head. i make some allowances for outlying abilities then factor in what i feel are typical powers/tendencies based on what characters do MOST often. but if it's ONE battle, it becomes a lot more difficult. in single battles, how much support IS legitimate support?

Spider-Man dodges Wolverine, overpowers him, and choke slams him unconscious: Outlier.

Batman reacts to Zoom, walks off pavement slam by bloodlusted Wonder Woman: Perfectly legit!

😇

Originally posted by -Pr-
facepalm

Say something that's actually true, and we'll see.

Question, how many times does a character have to display super speed for it to be an accurate representation of his powerset?

There are levels to superspeed,Carv, just like there are levels to superstrength.

USAgent has superstrength. Luke Cage has superstrength. Neither are armwrestling Hulk, lol.

Originally posted by carver9
Question, how many times does a character have to display super speed for it to be an accurate representation of his powerset?

Once to know they have super speed at all.

I don't know, a half-dozen? To get an average. That can include fighting people with superspeed too.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Once to know they have super speed at all.

I don't know, a half-dozen? To get an average. That can include fighting people with superspeed too.

THIS is the type of answer i've been looking for this whole damn time!

so you think a single showing is enough to make it valid to use in a vs match? i'm not trying to trap you here. i think people see this very differently.

btw--thanks for turning me back on to voyager! we're in our THIRD ^%$#@! lockdown in canada, and i've been binging the sh!t out of it. janeway is nowhere near as bad as i remembered--the series is actually excellent. thoroughly enjoying it.

Surely it also depends on the number of appearances - no real hard fast rule.

So for example, Damage and Wolverine. Damage has like..... ten appearances? Wolverine can have that amount in a week, lol. But if Damage has one showing of superspeed, that's surely enough.

The question then becomes how do we define it. Tagging a speedster isn't really proof (depending on the showing of course) - everyone has done that lol. But outrunning a car/plane ,for example, would be, imo.

Originally posted by leonidas
THIS is the type of answer i've been looking for this whole damn time!

so you think a single showing is enough to make it valid to use in a vs match? i'm not trying to trap you here. i think people see this very differently.

btw--thanks for turning me back on to voyager! we're in our THIRD ^%$#@! lockdown in canada, and i've been binging the sh!t out of it. janeway is nowhere near as bad as i remembered--the series is actually excellent. thoroughly enjoying it.

I never understood the hate for Janeway. I loved Star Trek Voyager

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Surely it also depends on the number of appearances - no real hard fast rule.

So for example, Damage and Wolverine. Damage has like..... ten appearances? Wolverine can have that amount in a week, lol. But if Damage has one showing of superspeed, that's surely enough.

The question then becomes how do we define it. Tagging a speedster isn't really proof (depending on the showing of course) - everyone has done that lol. But outrunning a car/plane ,for example, would be, imo.

oh, i agree 100% that it is appearance dependent. that's part of the issue with prepman-like threads where some new character is dumped into matches and no one knows anything about them. i'm talking here primarily about well established characters with tons and tons of appearances, but who have demonstrated a power or ability only very infrequently. under those conditions, what qualifies as ENOUGH proof of a power or ability?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I never understood the hate for Janeway. I loved Star Trek Voyager



i can only chock it up to an immature chauvintist tendency, fostered by kirk and picard. shrug

with age comes wisdom though. lol

Originally posted by leonidas
THIS is the type of answer i've been looking for this whole damn time!

so you think a single showing is enough to make it valid to use in a vs match? i'm not trying to trap you here. i think people see this very differently.

btw--thanks for turning me back on to voyager! we're in our THIRD ^%$#@! lockdown in canada, and i've been binging the sh!t out of it. janeway is nowhere near as bad as i remembered--the series is actually excellent. thoroughly enjoying it.

Well I mean, I'll put it this way.

If I pick up a comic tomorrow about a character that, in that first issue, is shown using superspeed, then yes, I'm going to assume that character has superspeed as part of their powerset.

The problem, as others have alluded to, is how to measure that speed once the character is in a vs match. I mean, guys like Deathstroke and Wolverine have what could be classed as a type of superspeed, but there is a world of difference between them and someone like The Flash, or Superman.

There is a huge disconnect in comics though, that I don't think gets addressed enough on here or in the comics themselves (the animated stuff does a better job of it), is when two characters who we know have superspeed fight each other... and yet on the panels we see no motion effects, no blurs, no streaks. Just punches and kicks, even though when we know that these two have speed, they should be using it against each other. Do we infer that Superman and Wonder Woman are using their speed against each other, even if we don't see the typical "effects" that come with such things? Or do we pretend that for some reason, even though they might be trying to smack the head off each other, they're somehow not? I mean, we can say it's CIS, sure, but it seems silly to me.

The animated movies do a better job of it like I said, but it does bother me.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I never understood the hate for Janeway. I loved Star Trek Voyager

I think she's badly written at times, including being horribly inconsistent at times (as is Voyager as a whole). That said, she does have some really good scenes though, especially when she's with Seven, the Doctor, or even just having that classic "I'm a Starfleet Captain, I do the right thing and **** you if you expect otherwise" kind of moment. And Kate Mulgrew is a fantastic actress.

Voyager has some great highs, it just has some terrible lows too.

Let's say if we have multiple showings of Hulk using super speed and in the same comic he moves through time stop. Your average speedster ain't doing that which means that if we are ignoring the majority and sticking to the minority here, that ft alone would put Hulk above most.

Then when you factor in the other details like blitzing Gladiator, outpacing rockets/missiles, moving faster than anyone Jack of Hearts ever saw move (and yes, he flies at FTL speeds)...

Originally posted by carver9
Let's say if we have multiple showings of Hulk using super speed and in the same comic he moves through time stop. Your average speedster ain't doing that which means that if we are ignoring the majority and sticking to the minority here, that ft alone would put Hulk above most.

Then when you factor in the other details like blitzing Gladiator, outpacing rockets/missiles, moving faster than anyone Jack of Hearts ever saw move (and yes, he flies at FTL speeds)...

It's like you aren't listening at all. Like, remotely.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I never understood the hate for Janeway. I loved Star Trek Voyager

So did I, the thing is I like it because she is so rigid in her stance of following the star fleet rules and principles (the complete opposite of say Kirk in many ways) but her command crew were all willing to break those rules for her so that she couldn't. Like literally every single member of her command crew broke the prime directive to achieve her and goal for her at some point.

Originally posted by Galan007
That's probably where the "In Character" clause comes into play.

If the character in question has only displayed a basic physical ability(like enhanced speed) a few times over years, but no other material retcons/contradicts it, I do think it is logical to believe they would use it in a forum fight... Assuming it's reasonably in character for them to do so(provided the stipulations of the thread.)

I'll just use Orion as an example:
-Would he use a speed advantage in your typical forum fight against a brick type? Probably not. He's a natural brawler who likes to test his strength and whatnot.
-Would he use a speed advantage if his opponent were preparing to shoot him with a Radion bullet? Probably so. He literally has no other defense, and will die if it hits him.

Point being, even that side of the discussion can be scenario-dependent.

This is exactly how I see it. Like I said in a few other threads. Invulnerable or highly durable bricks rarely use speed when facing someone they don't expect to be able cause them damage. They don't see that they have the need to. It might be hubris, or just arrogance but why waste all that energy when I don't need to.

In the case of Orion (since its come up) vs the team of Parker, Logan and Creed Orion isn't likely to start out using speed and he is going to get tagged. If when that happens it's by an admantium claws etc and they cut him then he is going to start using that speed.

In Character it isn't a go tobpower but when he is in danger it's a power he employs when needed.

That's how I see the powers that aren't often shown being used.

Another example would be Atoma Smasher from the JSA. Albert when he used the codename Nuklon couldn't just grow big and was strong, he could alter his mass and his density. He was never shown to have lost the power and since Infinity Inc all we've seen of it is a few references. Like when BA said he has increased his mass when he went to him before Black Reign. Or when Merlin referred to him as a mass manipulator in JLA.

The real world reason he hasn't used the power of course is that writers haven't bothered to do their research.

A single solitary usenof a power never seen again, that I would say isn't up for grabs, that IMHO is just poor writting

Originally posted by -Pr-
Once to know they have super speed at all.

I don't know, a half-dozen? To get an average. That can include fighting people with superspeed too.


I like how you say "can include fighting people at super speed".

Because a lot of people pretend a character with blatant examples of super speed who never uses it in a fight, will not have super speed in a forum fight. Val Armorr the Karate Kid is a prominent example of this, regularly dodging Kryptonian level super speed, occasionally outreacting Flash level speedsters, and even dodging Impulse in the form of Speed Force Lightning while holding onto a lightning rod.


By all that, he should blitz the crap out of any street leveler or meta. But nope, struggles with Robin the boy wonder, must be a scrub.

so how do YOU rationalize that? what's the PIS there? is it PIS when he fights a kryptonian? or is it PIS when he fights robin? how do you decide?

the sbp discussions taking place make me wonder about his punches 'reality-changing' ability too. would that ability be considered something you could use in a forum match? i've seen it cited any number of times. but the power is pretty random, and certainly when you look at the number of times he's punched something vs the number of times he's altered reality, the ability can be viewed to be very rare. fair play to call on a punch that we can't even predict the effects of...?

Originally posted by cdtm
I like how you say "can include fighting people at super speed".

Because a lot of people pretend a character with blatant examples of super speed who never uses it in a fight, will not have super speed in a forum fight. Val Armorr the Karate Kid is a prominent example of this, regularly dodging Kryptonian level super speed, occasionally outreacting Flash level speedsters, and even dodging Impulse in the form of Speed Force Lightning while holding onto a lightning rod.


By all that, he should blitz the crap out of any street leveler or meta. But nope, struggles with Robin the boy wonder, must be a scrub.

Bat-family never counts. Ever. Just like Cap and Logan, we need to treat those encounters as special cases.

Originally posted by leonidas


so how do YOU rationalize that? what's the PIS there? is it PIS when he fights a kryptonian? or is it PIS when he fights robin? how do you decide?

the sbp discussions taking place make me wonder about his punches 'reality-changing' ability too. would that ability be considered something you could use in a forum match? i've seen it cited any number of times. but the power is pretty random, and certainly when you look at the number of times he's punched something vs the number of times he's altered reality, the ability can be viewed to be very rare. fair play to call on a punch that we can't even predict the effects of...?

SBP's "reality punch" had extenuating circumstances attached to it, not least of which was that he had a physical barrier of reality to actually hit.

For the most part, he's not going to punch Thor and fracture reality in a forum match.

People use Batman to downplay high tier showings, though. When did something come into play where Batman encounters not counting? I'm not disputing you, I'm asking a question.

Example, me using Hulk surviving a all put punch from Galactus and then someone mentioning it doesn't count and it's PIS because people like Batman withstand hits from Wonder Woman and Superman.

Originally posted by carver9
People use Batman to downplay high tier showings, though. When did something come into play where Batman encounters not counting? I'm not disputing you, I'm asking a question.

Example, me using Hulk surviving a all put punch from Galactus and then someone mentioning it doesn't count and it's PIS because people like Batman withstand hits from Wonder Woman and Superman.

If a person uses Batman to try to make another character look bad, then they're trolling and/or a dumbass. Simple as that.

...That's not the same thing.

Originally posted by leonidas


so how do YOU rationalize that? what's the PIS there? is it PIS when he fights a kryptonian? or is it PIS when he fights robin? how do you decide?

the sbp discussions taking place make me wonder about his punches 'reality-changing' ability too. would that ability be considered something you could use in a forum match? i've seen it cited any number of times. but the power is pretty random, and certainly when you look at the number of times he's punched something vs the number of times he's altered reality, the ability can be viewed to be very rare. fair play to call on a punch that we can't even predict the effects of...?
Its not something he can turn on or off.
Its definitely something the writer can use in a reasonable enough setting though.

yeah, i've said this before but it could use some consideration here--if something happens over and over (ie, consistently) then it should no longer be considered PIS. imo. batman is a great example, as is logan. both have made entire careers out of battling people well above their tiers, and each does so with regularity. if it happens over and over, i don't like to label it PIS because to do so would render almost ALL their stories PIS. to me that makes no sense--how can we just discount so many showings? if it happens on a consistent basis, i think that should override the definition of pis. imo.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Its not something he can turn on or off.
Its definitely something the writer can use in a reasonable enough setting though.

that the writer can use--so you don't think it would be valid in a forum fight? the ability is purely pre-crisis-like in it's lack of logic. i tend to agree that it shouldn't come up in most matches. i wonder if it's anger related...?

Originally posted by leonidas


yeah, i've said this before but it could use some consideration here--if something happens over and over (ie, consistently) then it should no longer be considered PIS. imo. batman is a great example, as is logan. both have made entire careers out of battling people well above their tiers, and each does so with regularity. if it happens over and over, i don't like to label it PIS because to do so would render almost ALL their stories PIS. to me that makes no sense--how can we just discount so many showings? if it happens on a consistent basis, i think that should override the definition of pis. imo.

To be fair, there's more of a disconnect when it comes to Logan and Batman.

When it comes to people like Hulk and Superman, these are characters that, by design, can be written as having no limits to what their power can do.

Whereas with Batman and Logan and Cap, etc, we're supposed to believe that they're underdogs with limits that should stop them surviving the things they do. They're well beyond the "street levellers are peak human" stuff that we see the likes of Green Arrow and such do. That's why they're a cluster****.

Originally posted by leonidas
that the writer can use--so you don't think it would be valid in a forum fight? the ability is purely pre-crisis-like in it's lack of logic. i tend to agree that it shouldn't come up in most matches. i wonder if it's anger related...?
It can cuz in forum fights, u can come up with any setting.
I'd have to think on it more for standard settings.