Gender: Male Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!
outliers vs consistency
okay, so, i've been legit curious about this topic. it's come up a couple times recently. the question is how many times does a character need to show an ability/power for it to count as a legitimate ability in a vs match?
for example, combat speed. in a recent orion thread there were a few good speed feats posted, but the sheer number of feats utterly pales in comparison to the times he hasn't demonstrated combat speed in fights. so do we consider those few feats enough? it's happened with thor any number of times. the surfer suffers from the same issue. i remember people had a similar issue with superman back when he demonstrated t-vo (an ability i don't think was ever formally retconned so could still be viable....).
there are a number of these types of abilities that show up periodically. i guess the question is where do YOU draw the cut off line? if someone has 10 000 appearances, and showed an ability a dozen times, is that sufficient? if they showed it 3 times? what does and doesn't qualify as suitable support for an ability?
i've said in the past i tend to view battles on a spectrum--often out of 10 in my head. i make some allowances for outlying abilities then factor in what i feel are typical powers/tendencies based on what characters do MOST often. but if it's ONE battle, it becomes a lot more difficult. in single battles, how much support IS legitimate support?
This all assumes that power sets are defined by how often characters use them but I don’t think that’s necessarily true. Black Bolt comes to mind because of the tourney - relative to his appearance count the guy hardly ever matter/energy manips but the power is mentioned and/or shown just often enough to remind readers that he can.
More importantly, and (imo) more to the point of this thread, nothing’s really come up in the interim that obviously suggests or proves that he can’t.
I think consistency is an indicator but not definitive because some powers are used rarely but still exist. A power not being used doesn’t mean it vanished (absence of evidence =/= evidence of absence). But if a power is never used and other circumstances either strongly suggest or outright state that the character doesn’t have that power, then maybe the power is gone.
At least, that was my approach to arguing about Maker carrying a force field in our match. It’s difficult to prove that he isn’t always carrying one but his dialogue (and his getting punched in the face) definitely suggests that he isn’t.
Comic fights aren't forum fights. What may end a comic fight in the first panel (Surfer stopping time for example), would be fair game in a forum fight.
Comic fights are written so the character can struggle - no one wants to see, for example, Gladiator just uppercutting Hulk into space. So he grabs him ,and he chats ,and he uses HV etc etc. In short,PIS. But in a forum? Anything goes.
What limits it, then, is the character. Sure, Thor can transmute and absorb energy and summon storms etc etc....but most times, he wants to go fisticuffs, and just hit things with his hammer. Sure, Superman can cancel vibrations by singing, but 99.99% of the time, he punches really hard.
That's what separates the comic reader from the respect thread reader.
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Last edited by DarkSaint85 on Apr 30th, 2021 at 07:39 PM
Gender: Male Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!
Okay so as relates to Orion then. Is it enough to say that since he so rarely demonstrates legit combat speed that we should say that in character he wouldn’t display said speed? That seems to contradict the surfer stops time. In character he wouldn’t. In a forum match everything goes? Or I’m misunderstanding you. Lol
Gender: Male Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!
Really? Which rules do you think deal with this? I see the issue come up a lot I think. I'll use Orion again, because it fits the theme well. He has shown, in some cases, to possess super speed, but not often at all, relative to his appearances. But has it been shown enough to be considered in character, or is there enough legitimate support? I'm not sure using speed would be 'out of character' for him. But not every fight where he doesn't use it is PIS--I think most would agree with that. So is there enough support (Thor's speed has been argued similarly, but Thor has fewer speed feats than Orion (unless we use reaction speed) and Surfer combat speed feats are notorious sticking points in threads) to suggest Orion should be able to use super speed?
I'm legit not sure how to reconcile these types of issues. How much support qualifies as enough to prove something is a viable, in character ability or power?
On a serious note, speed has been beaten to death. I can give you a general answer as far as my opinion on abilities in general, but to go through that particular ability [that at this point has been very thoroughly discussed between posters and mods to the point where there's been clear rulings made] is legit groundhog day. Threads where people don't want other people to get statue'd should have speed equalized or something.
(1)
If the question of the thread is "how many times has an ability have to be used to consider it valid", well, it depends what ability and what you mean by valid [i.e. frequency to be used in a random thread]. I think the more complex the ability, the bigger the proof has to be that the character will use it enough number of times to be considered "valid" and not sporadic. I.e. while matter manipulation is complex, Firestorm's plethora of proof is more than enough that he will use it. But I don't think it's in the first 8 things somebody like Guy Gardner would use, even if he has that ability. Martian Manhunter would use phasing, Supergirl wouldn't even if they both have that ability.
My general rule of thumb is: If I give a 13 year old general knowledge of the character and his abilities, will he do what is claimed the character would? If yes [i.e. he'd dodge attacks that he doesn't want to take, he'd hit as hard as he has to win [with CIS on, short of killing], he'd blast as powerful as he'd need to in order to win], then that's the starting point, and the rest can be discussed.
(2).
If the question of the thread is "How many times has an ability have to appear in order to be considered as existent?" -- well, on this I think there's a lot of leeway. Technically speaking, to your T-VO example -- I can still argue it exists. It has never been officially removed out of continuity, just not used anymore. But reading the comics, "does Superman have a technique in his backpocket that can counter multiversal reality warpers?" isn't exactly something that rings true.
To quote Smurph:
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Yeah I don’t get where the speed thing is coming from and this question is quite a bit different from that other discussion. I used Orion as an example because he’s rarely demonstrated speed so I want to know if people think he has enough showings of speed to make it a viable defense/offense for him. Gardners matter manip is a good example though as is black bolts. Neither one uses it very often. In fact it’s extremely rare nowadays. But would it be ooc for bolt to use matter manip? There’s no real reason it would be. But he has very few showings of it when weighed against his appearances. Are those few showings enough to make it a viable option to use in a single match scenario?
I’m not talking about what’s in character. I’m asking how many times does something have to be used to be considered a valid ability.
Gender: Male Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!
Maybe a better way to phrase the question is when does something STOP being considered an outlier and become something that can be fairly used in a match?
If we go by comicvine, everything Superman does is outlier except where he looks bad then it's consistent and everything Thor does is consistency except where he looks bad then it's an outlier. Because Thor and Superman are still peers somehow.