I have spent the last 3 days watching Episodes IV, V, and VI. I have a bit of a problem. In ANH, when Obi-Wan and Vader square off at the Death Star, Vader says, "When I left you, I was but the learner. Now I am the Master."
Ok, this would signify that when he and Obi parted ways (in whichever way that will be), Anakin had NOT become a Jedi (he was a learner when he left). I also have a problem with that word, "left." Did Anakin leave Obi-Wan, or did he fall into the lava as we have heard? But I digress...
Now, in ROTJ, after Luke kicks his fathers ass and hands him his right hand on a silver platter, he says to the emperor, "You've failed, your Highness. I am a Jedi, like my father before me."
And let's not forget that in ANH, when Luke and Obi-Wan are at Obi's hut, Obi-Wan says, "I was once a Jedi Knight the same as your father."
These quotes are COMPLETELY contradictory. Obviously Anakin didn't become a Jedi before parting with Obi-Wan, so why did Luke and Obi-Wan say that his father was a Jedi? Anakin became a Sith, not a Jedi.
So, will Anakin be a Jedi in EIII? If so, this will add even more problems to the story in general. What are your thoughts?
well one of my answers is, shit happens, maybe george didnt notice this nitpick when he made the script...
but , anikan does become a jedi...right? He become a jedi when he turned to the dark side and palpatine became his master, "What is thy bidding my master"
It's been confirmed that Anakin becomes a Jedi knight during the clone wars but never reaches the rank of Jedi master. This perceived snub by the Jedi council is one of the things that contributes to Anakins journey to the dark side.
not if you look at it "from a certain point of view" what I mean by this is Anakin and Obi-Wan have always seemed to have this relationship where Obi-Wan seems to almost see himself "above" Anakin so to speak. And I dont mean literally as in the padawan/master sense. In alot of ways in ATOC he talks down to Anakin alot. Now if I were Anakin that would seriously rankle me after awhile. Perhaps this is what Vader is referring to in ROTJ.
First of all, Darth Vader definitely does NOT say, "Once you were the master, now it is I" in ANH. At no time during their fight does Vader refer to OWK as "Master", neither past nor present. He DOES refer to OWK earlier as "my old master". This would signify that OWK was indeed a Jedi Master. He was a Master BEFORE the Clone Wars. So that would indicate that Anakin was a Jedi during the Clone Wars.
So, if he was a Jedi, he was no longer a learner. He had nothing more to learn. However, he was still with OWK. He had not left him yet, but he was already a Jedi. This completely contradicts what Vader said in ANH to OWK during the Death Star duel.
The point of reference I use is Luke's journey to becoming a Jedi. If you remember, when Luke went back to Yoda to complete the training, he was discussing the training with Yoda and Yoda said, "No more training do you require. Already know you that which you need."
And Luke said, "Then I AM a Jedi." Yoda laughs and says,"One thing remains: Vader, you must face Vader. Only then a Jedi will you be."
So Luke had one more thing to learn before becoming a Jedi. This signifies that you stop being a learner when you become a Jedi. Again, this shows the contradiction in what Vader says to OWK at the Death Star.
There is no way that Anakin can be a Jedi in EIII, because that would mean that he is no longer a learner.
ok the lines are
I have been waiting for you Obi-Wan. The circle is now complete. When I left you I was but a learner. Now I am the master.
But see I'm thinking that this doesnt necessarily mean Anakin isnt a Jedi by the time ROTJ rolls around. I know Ive read that George Lucas confirmed that Anakin is a Jedi Knight by Episode 3 just not a Jedi Master.
edit: oops it wasnt GL it was Pablo see my post below.
And Vader didn't say "... when I left you I was but a Jedi Knight, now I am a Master." He didn't mention being a Jedi at all. He said he was a learner. Now, what are Padawan's referred to all the time? Padawan Learners.
In a way similar to him being a Padawan and not understanding why he isn't a Knight yet, the Episode III Anakin is a Jedi Knight who doesn't get why the Council hasn't granted him the status of Master yet. -PH
PH = Pablo Hidalgo
corn honey I think maybe you are tying to think too literally in this scene. I honestly think this has to do with Anakin feeling "less than" Obi-Wan in his own mind.
This scene was filmed decades before there was any notion of the early relationship between Anakin and Obi-wan floating around in Lucas' head. When literal statements like Vader's are made, we should never be required to understand and figure out inner feelings of angst and inferiority in the character's mind, nor should we be required to have seen the earlier film to understand the meaning of a statement.
What Vader said in ANH is quite literal, and should be taken that way. He was a learner. That's pretty straightforward. And if you're a learner, you can't be a Jedi.
Let's face it, Lucas completely screwed this one up.
are you kidding me? I always try and look beyond the written word for character development. But I can see where you are coming from. When I saw this film in 1977, I think I did indeed make the assumption that Anakin was Obi-Wan's pupil when they were last together. But today I'm ok with the way it all works out.
By the way when I went and watched that scene a few minutes ago to get the lines I noticed that I STILL get goosebumps when Obi-Wan lifts his saber up and lets Vader cut him down and Luke screams Noooo! GOD I LOVE THESE MOVIES!!
You're quite right. That look he gives Luke and then Vader before he sacrifices himself says volumes. I will always love these stories, regardless of the little problems here and there.
Jul 20th, 2004 02:14 PM
what I mean by this is Anakin and Obi-Wan have always seemed to have this relationship where Obi-Wan seems to almost see himself "above" Anakin so to speak. And I dont mean literally as in the padawan/master sense. In alot of ways in ATOC he talks down to Anakin alot. Now if I were Anakin that would seriously rankle me after awhile. Perhaps this is what Vader is referring to in ROTJ.
are you kidding me? I always try and look beyond the written word for character development. But I can see where you are coming from. When I saw this film in 1977, I think I did indeed make the assumption that Anakin was Obi-Wan's pupil when they were last together. But today I'm ok with the way it all works out. 
