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Love is Forbidden...so..........
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PVS
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Love is Forbidden...so..........

just a question thats been bugging me.
i wasnt sure where to post this, so i'll post it here.
if this topic has already been posted, please merge.

ok, anakin loved padme and thus feared losing her.
that fear led to his turn to the darkside...point proven.
and thats why the jedi are forbidden from marrage or realations.

now lets move on to the OT:

at the end of RotJ we find out that leah is strong with the force,
and will be trained by her brother to be a jedi knight. a no-brainer.

so....does that mean she has to dump han solo?

and on a side not:

yoda: the force runs strong in your family...pass on what you have learned

later in yoda's last dying words, he tells luke there is another skywalker. a separate statement from "pass on..." i always thought that the "pass on" comment was encouragement for luke to have children and maintain his bloodline. anyone else translate it the same as me?

have the rules changed? or is leah setting herself up for a turn to the darkside?

Last edited by PVS on May 31st, 2005 at 07:55 PM

Old Post May 31st, 2005 07:52 PM
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@stroFan
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Note from EU, but just what I think will happen. I think when Luke reforms the order he kinda loosens the reigns.


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Old Post May 31st, 2005 07:55 PM
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kimmeh
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Re: Love is Forbidden...so..........

quote: (post)
Originally posted by PVS
just a question thats been bugging me.
i wasnt sure where to post this, so i'll post it here.
if this topic has already been posted, please merge.

ok, anakin loved padme and thus feared losing her.
that fear led to his turn to the darkside...point proven.
and thats why the jedi are forbidden from marrage or realations.

now lets move on to the OT:

at the end of RotJ we find out that leah is strong with the force,
and will be trained by her brother to be a jedi knight. a no-brainer.

so....does that mean she has to dump han solo?

and on a side not:

yoda: the force runs strong in your family...pass on what you have learned

later in yoda's last dying words, he tells luke there is another skywalker. a separate statement from "pass on..." i always thought that the "pass on" comment was encouragement for luke to have children and maintain his bloodline. anyone else translate it the same as me?

have the rules changed? or is leah setting herself up for a turn to the darkside?


There are other places to post this PVS stick out tongue

And I would hope that after the events of the entire saga that they would learn that love is not a BAD thing... I always thought (and no I dont read EU) that after ROTJ Luke would begin training Jedi again, only this time learning to incorporate all of ones feelings, not denying things but embracing them. Seeing as how the other way didnt work out so well with teh Emporer & all.. its gotta be worth a shot stick out tongue


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Old Post May 31st, 2005 08:06 PM
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Robin Darkside
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Re: Love is Forbidden...so..........

quote: (post)
Originally posted by PVS


yoda: the force runs strong in your family...pass on what you have learned




I though Yoda said in EP VI:

"The force runs strong in your family, that is all what you have learned"

Old Post May 31st, 2005 09:33 PM
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mossman
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No - it is "pass on what you have learned".

And love is not forbidden.
Attachement is forbidden within the Jedi order.
Not being willing to let go of the things that you do love.

Don't forget that the Jedi order is missing the point in the PT, only QGJ gets things right, and Yoda and Obi eventually learn what he has learned.
QGJ is far more caring and understanding.
He has time for people.

With Luke they find a happy medium, he is allowed to have feelings but is taught to understand them and deal with them, rather than just being warned away from them.
He takes an intuitive path.


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Old Post May 31st, 2005 09:39 PM
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Robin Darkside
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maybe the jedi teachings evolve a bit, when it starts to be ok to have attachments, as long as you are willing to accept the fact that you may lose them one day


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Old Post May 31st, 2005 09:43 PM
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green dude
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Good point Robin Darkside and mossman in the first movies no one listens or pay attention to peoples feelings and that was the down fall if you don't pay attetion to what people feel or say then it will eventually come back to haunt you :/

Old Post May 31st, 2005 10:04 PM
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mysterio69
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by mossman
No - it is "pass on what you have learned".

And love is not forbidden.
Attachement is forbidden within the Jedi order.
Not being willing to let go of the things that you do love.

Don't forget that the Jedi order is missing the point in the PT, only QGJ gets things right, and Yoda and Obi eventually learn what he has learned.
QGJ is far more caring and understanding.
He has time for people.

With Luke they find a happy medium, he is allowed to have feelings but is taught to understand them and deal with them, rather than just being warned away from them.
He takes an intuitive path.


mossman's right. it all goes back to qui-gon.


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Old Post May 31st, 2005 10:08 PM
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green dude
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Qui-gon rocks for a dead guy probile Anikan would have never gone to the darkside if he was still alive he defied the council if you ask me he is council he actually understands and knows more than them stick out tongue

Old Post May 31st, 2005 10:15 PM
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Robin Darkside
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yeah, Qui Gon is awesome, always defying the council, where the coucil isn;t perfect, he does what he must.


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Old Post May 31st, 2005 10:17 PM
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DeVi| D0do
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by mossman
No - it is "pass on what you have learned".

And love is not forbidden.
Attachement is forbidden within the Jedi order.
Not being willing to let go of the things that you do love.

Don't forget that the Jedi order is missing the point in the PT, only QGJ gets things right, and Yoda and Obi eventually learn what he has learned.
QGJ is far more caring and understanding.
He has time for people.

With Luke they find a happy medium, he is allowed to have feelings but is taught to understand them and deal with them, rather than just being warned away from them.
He takes an intuitive path.


BINGO! I agree completely.


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Old Post May 31st, 2005 11:25 PM
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Hazardous
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no no no...see what yoda is trying to say to anakin is that since attachment is forbidden, he should get naughty with padme, then dump her !eek!






ill go home nowno expression

Old Post May 31st, 2005 11:29 PM
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ayjay
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laughing bwuhahaha!!....dats funny.....i found the council very annoying...hell, if i was in anakins position, i'd be pissed too...


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Old Post May 31st, 2005 11:35 PM
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Robin Darkside
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mist
no no no...see what yoda is trying to say to anakin is that since attachment is forbidden, he should get naughty with padme, then dump her !eek!

ill go home nowno expression



well, if you put it that way, its all good

Although, wouldn;t you want to keep Padme for awile

Old Post Jun 1st, 2005 05:24 AM
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Hazardous
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attachment is forbidden.....however on and off sex should be quite ok laughing out loud

Old Post Jun 1st, 2005 05:33 AM
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Robin Darkside
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mist
attachment is forbidden.....however on and off sex should be quite ok laughing out loud


agreed

Old Post Jun 1st, 2005 05:37 AM
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Lazerlike42
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by mossman

Don't forget that the Jedi order is missing the point in the PT, only QGJ gets things right, and Yoda and Obi eventually learn what he has learned.
QGJ is far more caring and understanding.
He has time for people.

With Luke they find a happy medium, he is allowed to have feelings but is taught to understand them and deal with them, rather than just being warned away from them.
He takes an intuitive path.


This is 100% correct, and I would add that Qui-Gon was not only caring but also most in tune with the force of all the Jedi in the PT times, and what he taught Yoda and Obi-Wan was the will of the force, not the will of the Jedi order.

Also, if you watch the PT and the OT, you will see a definite distinction between the two in that Yoda and Obi-Wan pay much more attention to emotion in the OT than anyone does in the PT.


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Old Post Jun 1st, 2005 06:41 AM
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PVS
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by mossman
No - it is "pass on what you have learned".

And love is not forbidden.
Attachement is forbidden within the Jedi order.
Not being willing to let go of the things that you do love.

Don't forget that the Jedi order is missing the point in the PT, only QGJ gets things right, and Yoda and Obi eventually learn what he has learned.
QGJ is far more caring and understanding.
He has time for people.

With Luke they find a happy medium, he is allowed to have feelings but is taught to understand them and deal with them, rather than just being warned away from them.
He takes an intuitive path.


but isnt that too much of a leap of faith?
granted, luke was able to handle the death of beru and owen in true jedi fashion, so it seemed. but who had an influence in that? surely not the jedi.
luke was strong enough (however immature and whiney) to let go and not let it turn him crazy, but how can we know that EVERYONE will be able to let go of the ones they love? and keep in mind that luke DID have attachment to his sister and his friends, and never let go of it. it made him skip the rest of his training in ep5 and almost turned him in ep6.

and as far as quigon, he and the jedi were wrong in taking anakin away from his mother at such an early age, because he was already attached. anakin's turn was not a result of following the jedi code, but by breaking its rules. quigon was too impulsive to realise what he was getting anakin into, refusing to see the danger of his actions. yoda was RIGHT to not want him to be trained.
at least they should have allowed him to grow up on tattooine, and mature enough to handle loss, as was the case with luke.

...and maybe that's what they learned from anakin's fall. maybe thats why they waited so long to train luke. maybe the rules did change, and love/marriage is accepted...but the risk of turning to the dark side is much greater, since luke and leah are not detached as was the case with the old order...and even if they can handle the power/responsibility, who says all others who are trained will have the same capacity?

i just wish they explained that a bit, since its such a key element in the way the entire story unfolds.

Last edited by PVS on Jun 1st, 2005 at 01:14 PM

Old Post Jun 1st, 2005 01:12 PM
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mossman
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by PVS
but isnt that too much of a leap of faith?
granted, luke was able to handle the death of beru and owen in true jedi fashion, so it seemed. but who had an influence in that? surely not the jedi.


But that was my point - it was Luke's own heart which was the key.
Every part of him which was not "Jedi" was part of his success, and what made him unique.
Here we see a Jedi order which takes children from their parents before they have even experienced anything "real" and programmes them what is right and wrong.
And that order, ultimately, falls apart because they have been shut out from what is happening in the real world for generations.

"Jedi training, the sole source of self-discipline is not." - Yoda

Ani had lived a bit before he started training.
Luke had lived a bit before he started training.
Ani faced certain situations and made the wrong choices.
Luke faced the same situations and made the right choices.

Those choices were not, ultimately, about things exclusive to the Jedi and the Sith, they were about basic human emotions.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by PVS
luke was strong enough (however immature and whiney) to let go and not let it turn him crazy, but how can we know that EVERYONE will be able to let go of the ones they love? and keep in mind that luke DID have attachment to his sister and his friends, and never let go of it. it made him skip the rest of his training in ep5 and almost turned him in ep6.


But, again, the difference was Luke was allowed to follow his own path to a certain degree.
I think the lesson at the Dagobah cave is a great example.
Yoda could have told Luke exactly what the future was going to throw at him.
Told him not to do this - to do that etc.
But instead, Luke is given an experience.
The best teacher.
Ani got nothing like that - he was just told, scalded, instructed.

I'm not saying the difference is in Luke.
The difference is in how Yoda and Obi handle him, what they let him do.

TPM - "Master Yoda told me to be mindful of the future."
ESB - "Hard to say. Always in motion the future... This one a long time have I watched. Never his mind on where he was. What eh was doing."

There is a definite change of philosphy for the Jedi come the OT.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by PVS
and as far as quigon, he and the jedi were wrong in taking anakin away from his mother at such an early age, because he was already attached.


That's kind of what I'm saying.
The Jedi's lesson is that they are not the be all and end all.
There are more important things.
I'm not saying QGJ was right to take Ani away, but if he had taken Ani away and brought him to a Jedi Order which was ready for him, that could handle real emotions, maybe things would not have turned the way they did.
QGJ was right to focus on the living force.
The moment.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by PVS
ankin's turn was not a result of following the jedi code, but by breaking its rules.


"My failure, this was." - Yoda, ROTS (novelization)
"Into exile I must go. Failed, I have." - Yoda, ROTS

quote: (post)
Originally posted by PVS
quigon was too impulsive to realise what he was getting anakin into, refusing to see the danger of his actions. yoda was RIGHT to not want him to be trained.


I agree.
And Yoda makes the same decision for Luke and Leia.
To distance them from Jedi training.
Because there are more important lessons to be learned.


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Last edited by mossman on Jun 1st, 2005 at 01:52 PM

Old Post Jun 1st, 2005 01:49 PM
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Lazerlike42
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I put this in another thread, but I will try to remember what I said exactly....

Yoda was not right to not want him trained. Anakin was one of two things, depending on what you believe, and it doesn't matter which: a creation of Plagiues/Palpatine who would have been picked up and trained by Palpatine, or a random creation of the force who would have been lost forever on Tatooine and never learned how to use the force.

If he was a creation of the Sith and he was not trained, he would have been trained by Sidious from a young age until he was far more powerful than we ever see him in any of the films, would have accepted the Dark Side completely, and together with Sidious would have destroyed the Jedi Order and ruled the galaxy with no hope (ie.e, Luke) of ever being defeated.

If he was a random offshoot left on Tatooine, then Sidious, with his clone army and Dooku at his side, would have destroyed the Jedi and ruled the galaxy (contrary to what Obi-Wan tells Luke, it is the clone army that dooms the Jedi; Anakin's role in the purge is relatively very, very minor), with again no hope (i.e., Luke) of ever being defeated.

It is fallacious to say that Anakin should have been allowed to mature more so as to be able to handle loss; a coarse analysis of the situation would lead to the conclusion that the problem was the opposite, as Jedi are normally trained from MUCH younger ages than Anakin so as they avoid forming any attachment to begin with. In this view, the problem would be that Anakin was too old, and attachment only grows with time. Maturity has little to do with it as a 40 year old man has just as much difficulty accepting the death of a parent as does a 14 year old boy. The flaw is manifested in that Jedi are able to be turned to the dark side, such as Dooku.

A more fine assesment leads to similar but deeper conclusions. Though the process of training Jedi from very young ages worked well, it was flawed. The goal of this process was to avoid the formation of attachment in the first place, and to train the Jedi to ignore emotion, much like a Vulcan. However, this is an inherently flawed premise, as it ignores the very nature of those being trained, which is a nature of emotion. By ignoring emotion and training so as to avoid it completely, this leaves the trainee incapable of handling emotion should it arise. It puts most Jedi at risk to end up like much like Data in Star Trek Generations (sorry they just fit lol), completely overcome and unable to handle them. The logic behind this is roughly equivalent to neglecting to train a student driver to operate in the snow because it is best not to do so.

Qui-Gon was a caring man. This was passed on to Yoda and Obi-Wan between ROTS and ANH, and they follow this in training Luke. Luke is trained to understand his feelings and react appropriately, not to ignore them and act as though they do not exist. The Jedi Order has been compared to Christianity (as well as Buddhism however it is not applicable here) many times. A Christian would tell you that the first step toward evil is to treat it as thought it does not exist. Christians are trained about the temptations of evil from young ages. They are not taught in the manner of Barney the Dinosaur (i.e., the world is happy happy jolly and everyone likes you). With this background, they are able to confront and resist evil. Luke is able to resist because he has learned to, which is one of the bigger errors the Jedi made prior to the rise of Sidious. Before this, young Jedi seem not to have been taught of the dark side; it is known to exist but is not discussed and is taboo. This is a receipe for disaster.

Everyone can let go of the ones they love because in the New Jedi Order, they are prepared. There trainers prepare them, and they themselves mentally prepare themselves from the beginning of their training to let go if it should be necessary. In PT times, Jedi are never allowed to see that there is anything to let go of, thus leaving them very vulnerable. In this context, any Jedi would become intoxicated with the very first sign of love or attachment, imbibed so much with it that it would be virtually impossible to give it up when the time comes.

The first time a serious romantic relationship ends, a person is hit much, much worse than in succesive instances, because he or she has never experienced it before. Later occurences are less traumatic becuase the individual has gained an understanding of the emotional spectrum that is contextual to the situation. Luke is able to resist, as would other New Order Jedi, because in part he has spent his entire life saying goodbye and has learned to handle it. He lost Beru and Owen, all of his friends to the academy, Biggs ultimately to death, and likely many rebel friends. On top of all of this, he lost Obi-Wan, whom he had begun to take as a father, which he had never had, and eventually found his father only to lose him to a fate worse than death as he clung for life on the bottom of the Cloud City. He "was used to it," and by allowing Jedi to have attachment throughout life and guiding and training them in controlling and understanding (as opposed to ignoring) emotion, they too would gain the proper perspective, strength, and "spiritual" ground with which to do so.


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Old Post Jun 1st, 2005 01:53 PM
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