I have been arguing about comic book characters for a long time, and there was always one thing has never settled well with me. The use of strength as a HUGE factor in deciding the outcome of a hypothetical battle.
The fact is, in reality, strength is not always a good indicator of how a person would do in a fight. In fact, I know for a fact that many "extremely strong" people would not do very well in a fight with a weaker opponent who knows how to fight, or, through skill and experience, knows HOW to hit harder, faster, smarter, more frequently, more strategically, etc.
In the case of Striking Feats, it comes down to the skill of the writer to actually come up with how characters will react in a battle.
Before I go on and on about which type of feat is more important, I wanted to see if anybody had any examples of on-panel showings where the writer was actually able to show fighting skill trumping brute strength.
The problem is when you get two equally skilled or unskilled fighters together. In many cases the stronger opponent wins. Size does not equate strength, so you could have a very strong, but lean person defeat a much larger and equally as strong opponent, simply because of agility. An example of this would be a battle between Colossus (without Cyttorak) and the Thing. Peter is leaner, and likely faster than the Thing, but they are nearly the same in terms of strength. Colossus should win the battle if he were more agile than the Thing, and capable of throwing more punches and kicks.
The problem with real life vs comic fiction, is that you have to factor in striking power vs durability or natural body armor. Captain America has no business knocking out Thor, The Hulk, Sasquatch or any other brute capable of surviving a nuclear strike.
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cap's done very well against namor as well. usually when the disparity is THAT great though, strength and durability DO win out, even against enormously skilled opponents. skill often wins out, so long as the strength advantage isn't impossible to overcome.
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In Caps case it should be impossible to overcome, which is why it should be viewed as PIS. I mean if you figure that Spiderman beating the crap out of Firelord is PIS, then Cap Koing a brute capable of weathering far more than his fists, kicks and shield strikes should be categorized under the same banner.
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never said otherwise. he did do well--tossed namor around in the fight i'm thinking of, but namor beat him. things like nerve strikes and such MAY be effective against even heavyweights, but by and large i agree with you. it all depends on how great the differential. and we can't forget that while the people guys like cap fight are superhuman and can take nukes and such, cap is also superhuman AND superhumanly skilled. but like i said, i'm willing to suspend disbelief--up to a certain point. cap shouldn't be taking out hulk without some plot device help in h2h.
If you have two people, and they weigh the same, yet one does extensive powerlifting and the other is just sort of an average dude, the guy that is stronger will in all likelihood hit with more force.
Why? Because his greater strength makes him FASTER too, and that means he's going to swing his arm/move his body faster than the other guy, and thus get in more force, with all other factors (mass, technique, age etc.) being equal.
Since we're talking realistically, it might as well be understood that one can't be fast and weak. speed doesn't come from magic. it comes from muscles. strong muscles.
Why is an elephant lumbering? (i.e. not able to cross its own body length very quickly) Because an elephant is weak for its size. Why is a cat able to its own body length very quickly? Because its strong for its size. Why is a tiger beetle able to cover dozens of its own body length very quickly? Because even more extremely, its VERY f*cking strong for its size.
So my point is, for comics, it works out fine. You have Hercules, he's like, I dunno 6'5" and 300 something lbs. That's about what a human his size would weigh. And yet he's obviously, I dunno, quintillions of times stronger than any human.
So it makes perfect sense for him to be able to hit really hard because his strength to weight ratio is so high.
The differential would be far to great to overcome, Cap's strikes whether they be nerve strikes or not would first have to get past the muscle depth to cause any injury or damage whatsoever. Danny once used the Ironfist on Savage Hulk, and nearly broke his hand, which caused very little effect on the Hulk, and yet Captain America puts him down with a gut punch? PIS was certainly what played out in that showing. The Hulk has had his heart pulled out, and not lost conciousness. I would agree that Caps chances of taking down Bulldozer are good in a comic, but if it were real life, I would place my bets on the guy capable of lifting a bus, and is bullet proof.
Oh yea, Captain America knocked out Savage Hulk and drew blood against Green Scar. Of course, his been unable to hurt Thor every single time his attacked him (Hurt his hand punching his jaw etc.), but that's just more evidence that Thor > Hulk.
One example that comes to mind, is an old book where Daredevil actually defeated the Avengers, while trying to get at the Black Widow.
And, if I am not mistaken, that team included Cap and Herc.
No power-ups, no special weapons. All through skill.
That's pretty much what I said. Therefore in a real life setting Captain America would have no business knocking out a guy that can survive the incredible pressures of the deepest oceans, or a guy that can survive a nuclear strike.
Wolverine has sliced up Thor and had Thor holding his side from claw swipes from Wolverine but when Wolverine faced Colossus, that sh** didn't happen. More proof that Colossus>Thor.
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Jan 19th, 2012 11:51 PM
