I've always felt that without her gear, Diana is around Namor's level, which I would say would be about low Herald. With them she ranges from low to mid, and on a very good day high Herald. However giving her high Herald status is a huge push because of guys like Thor, Surfer, and Superman when going all out would beat the hell out of her. Yeah she's about low to mid in my book. J'onn is the only one here that i could see her split with, and that's because he's also not in the high Herald class unless someone's jobbing to him, and neither is Captain Marvel, or Black Adam, from what I've seen Ultra Man do to him recently. So those three would split with her most of the time.
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Last edited by Stoic on Nov 13th, 2013 at 08:24 AM
(I'll use Classic Wondy, as I'm more familiar with her)
Martian Manhunter, Beta Ray Bill, any Marvel family member (Lasso + "Say your wizard's name" bumps it from a close fight to clear favor), dunno current Hyperion or Blue Marvel but she could beat a lot of the different Hyperions out there and if Blue is strong but relatively inexperienced that could leave him vulnerable to a lasso. And maybe even Orion (Bracers allow her to block the Astro Force and turn it into a pure melee fight, where her weapons and speed may give an edge despite his strength. Eh, maybe.).
There's no-one on that list she couldn't at least give a really hard fight to.
How is that? If Superman went all out on her, he would kill her in several minutes. She even said several times that Superman would be a huge threat to everyone if he were to ever go rogue. Hyperion, Blue marvel, and others of this tier would tear her apart imo. And can definitely generate more power per hit than she could. It's pretty clear where DC places her at, and DCnU is just an extension of that opinion. Just look at what one huge hit from Doomsday did to her. She doesn't belong in the big leagues. Then again neither does Firelord so as to not appear to be picking on her.
I didn't put Superman on the list, as I actually feel he is more like the Hulk is these days. Sometimes he is equal to those on the list, but he can often exceed them.
So in my opinion, just because Diana is second to Superman, doesn't mean she can't be equal to these guys.
"If Superman went all out on her, he would kill her in several minutes. "
This actually happened in Greg Rucka's "Sacrifice" storyline. Superman was being manipulated by Maxwell Lord and he believed she was Doomsday and had just killed Lois. So, Superman was ENRAGED and BLOOD LUSTED and going absolutely all out on her. The fight ended in a draw after she cut his throat and then snapped Maxwell Lord's neck. After the fight, Superman admitted that she had snapped several of his ribs with a kick.
Before the New 52:
She previously steamrolled Powergirl, another Kryptonian.
She was depicted as equal to and stalemated Captain Marvel and she even had the advantage before the fight was broken up. Again, in Flashpoint, she fights to a draw with Captain Thunder (that universe's Captain Marvel), making it the second occasion where they have been depicted as equals.
She defeated Professor Zoom, who is one of the Flash's most powerful enemies and a top tier speedster.
She defeated Genocide, a villain who steamrolled the combined forces of Green Lantern (John Stewart), Firestorm, Red Tornado, Donna Troy, Wondergirl and Black Canary.
She has deflected Zeus' magical attacks, Nekron's magical attacks and blocked the Godwave (which is the combined magical force of every pantheon).
In the New 52, she demolished Supergirl with minimum effort. Supergirl wasn't even able to react to her movement speed and it took Wonder Woman one good hit to take her down.
She also absolutely embarassed Green Lantern (Hal Jordan), who was barely able to even phase her. She tore threw his constructs like they were cardboard.
So it seems pretty clear that DC places her just a step below Superman and on par with Captain Marvel, far above the likes of even the most powerful Green Lanterns and most Kryptonians outside of Superman. I would say that counts as "big leagues".
Last edited by Noodles71 on Nov 13th, 2013 at 09:13 AM
That actually happened, and not only did she not die, but she inflicting significant damage to him and while she was almost taken out at one point, at the part the fight stopped, she held the edge, with his hands holding in a cut throat.
(And before someone says, "He wasn't fighting at his best," yes- he was fighting too aggressively. Normally he'd be more cautious and take more time. But he was fighting smart, he was using his powers at full and in combination- his opening move was literally to try and speedblitz throw her into the sun while blasting heat vision and strangling her. Didn't work.)
Why do so many people go "if this, then there's no way that-!" on stuff that has actually happened? And not just in a side book, but a central event book, meaning top editorial signed off on it.
Superman's got the edge, but it's also blatantly just an edge, she's still a risky foe for him.
Of course. And it's also been said by Batman that if she went rogue, no-one but Superman could stop her.
And Superman names her, not Captain Marvel or the like, as Earth's next line of defense if he falls.
And she's better at getting more hits.
You do realize not all boxing/martial arts champions are of the heavy-hitter variety, right? Some win against heavier hitters via skill, reflexes, and so on.
Yes, considering her record of multiple draws against Superman, a win in Sacrifice, and successfully lasso'ing Doomsdayified Superman (despite another villain stealing her lasso at the start of the fight).
In Doomsday War, Doomsday dropped Martian Manhunter in one hit, then hit Wonder Woman 3 times, after which she was still standing and fighting (DD actually won by tangling her in the lasso).
And this was post-Hunter Prey Doomsday, at his higher strength level, as shown by his one-shotting of J'onn.
Zolomon Zoom, not Professor- who's even faster! Every other time Zoom was taken down was a combined effort, only Diana has a solo win.
Lasso. The most famous but, arguably, the least effective in a fight win an equal. Provides a potential win condition even against beings much stronger if they're completely wrapped up. It also blocks telepathy when wrapped, and wrapping a magic user also prevents them from casting (another reason she's qualified as a High Herald- against a high level psychic or magic user, she's much more useful than anyone above). A wrap around, say, an arm or foot isn't as disabling, but still makes someone tell the truth, like the name of a wizard. Can extend to any length, be used as a whip, or a cutting tool, has been used to slice a demon-god's hand off.
Tiara. Magical cutting weapon, it can slice even Superman's skin like butter. Useful in melee or ranged, and has a boomerang function so she'll get it back on a missed toss. Has killed the god phobos.
Bracers. To begin with, they're hard, absolutely unbreakable metal, and she has been known to slam them into people, which hurts. Aside from being unbreakable, if crossed they form a force field, which will stop anything tossed at her- even a full strength Astro Force blast or Omega Effect won't even singe her hair. Thus while her passive defense is lower than some on the list, her active defense can and has blocked even Skyfather level attacks, so slow or clumsy attacks will simply be nullified. Additionally, they have a powerful offense ability, the Lightning of Zeus, which is created in a continual burst around them and she's fried a Professor Ivo Android to ash by just continually running lightning through it for 30 seconds strait. It's kill the magic monstrosity under the island of Themyscira, and hurt the Hawaiian god of war with a quick zap. Needless to say, as a lot of even high-end fighters don't like magic, not fun for them.
Using this equipment, she's not only got a good share of wins against heralds, but trans level beings as well. Not a surprise, really, considering her rogue's gallery contains at least four trans level foes.
And that's without her 'lesser seen' gear, Gauntlets of Atlas, Sword of Hephaestus, Sandals of Hermes, Aegis shield (which, along with the Trident of Poseidon, was the only other thing which broke an Impy Probe).
Sea shell of Kane Milohai, which allows travel between dimensions and thus stops BFR.
Full gear Diana is Trans easily.
She also uses her combat armor and axe pretty often (the axe with which she killed Ares, and hurt the False Rao god even when the entire JSA was coming up short). Not as much as her regular gear, but more than the major artifacts you mention.
In New 52, her bracelets can also generate weaponry, in particular a spear which was able to one-shot The First Born, who shrugged off a sustained barrage from Orion without flinching.
Though at the cost of the defensive ability- unlike the old, impenetrable ones, her new ones have already been pierced (by Hades' wielding Eros's guns, which is formidable, but still).
That's true, I do tend to view Eros' gun in a different vein as its not supposed to actually hurt someone and the gauntlets were completely unmarked afterwards. I mean, she did block Pandora's bullets, which were able to hurt high level cosmic abstracts.
Well, multiple people are rating her equal or above several on your list.
And as I mentioned, she's got multiple Trans level regular villains. Heck, against psychic or magic high herald/trans level characters, she's much better equipped than Superman or similar.
"Gives a non-holding-back Superman a brutal, damaging-to-both sides brawl, and better against some types of foes," doesn't exactly make her look bad.
Well, from the evidence provided, she has been able to hold her own and even end the fight with the advantage against a blood lusted Superman who wasn't holding back. She's stalemated Captain Marvel on two separate occasions (once in an alternate universe, albeit a canon alternate universe) meaning that she is a step below Superman but easily on par with Captain Marvel and therefore Black Adam. So assuming Supes is somewhere near the top of this tier, that would put her solidly in the middle of this tier.
It should also be noted that she's a rather terrible match up for characters that rely on energy projection, considering she's got some of the most ridiculous feats when it comes to deflecting energy and magic based attacks.
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Nov 13th, 2013 08:06 AM
