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Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Ragnos would waste Exar as even as a spirit, Exar's equal feared him.
Stop saying either of them feared Ragnos, Glentract. For one, the Sith lord that appeared to them was unnamed. Second, neither of them showed any signs of fear of this spirit, period. Third, at the end, Ulic was nowhere near Exar's level of power.
1. The New Essential Guide to Chronology and the New Essential Guide to Characters both specifically say it was Ragnos. Starwars.com states, "As they fought, the Sith amulets that each of them wore suddenly came to life, awakened from a millennia-long sleep by renewed Sith energies." Ragnos was the most powerful from 1,000 years prior. If it was someone weaker than Ragnos, that makes Kun look even weaker when compared to Ragnos.
2. Why did Ulic protest for being named weaker when it was cleary stated that Exar and Ulic where equal.
3. Prove this.
1) And the actual source material reads:
Ulic: "Who are you?"
Exar: "I know him... I've seen his mummified remains... on Korriban!"
Unknown Dark Lord: "It matters not who I am."
Nowhere is his name stated. It is an unknown Sith lord. And millenia is plural. Millenium would be one thousand.
As well, it says the message the Sith Lord carries is from "...A time when the Sith people were being driven to extinction by the Jedi Knights and the armies of the Galactic Republic."
That was not Ragnos' time.
"If it was someone weaker than Ragnos, that makes Kun look even weaker when compared to Ragnos."
How, exactly? Neither of them showed fear, as I said. They simply stopped fighting each other, as I imagine anyone would do if an apparition appeared in the room.
2) It was clearly stated that they were equal in lightsaber combat.
DLOTS, Narrator: "Both Jedi are master swordsmen -- Neither can claim an advantage with the Lightsaber!"
Nowhere is any other mention of them being equal in any way.
3) It's never shown that Ulic learned Sith Magic. Indeed, he almost lost to Mandalore in single combat. Kun, however, spends his time increasing his own power rather than directing the armies of the Krath and Mandalore, as Ulic does. Kun is decidely more powerful than Qel-Droma at the end of the Sith War.
Originally posted by IKC
1) And the actual source material reads:Ulic: "Who are you?"
Exar: "I know him... I've seen his mummified remains... on Korriban!"
Unknown Sith Lord: "It matters not [B]who
I am."Nowhere is his name stated. It is an unknown Sith lord. And millenia is plural. Millenium would be one thousand.
As well, it says the message the Sith Lord carries is from "...A time when the Sith people were being driven to extinction by the Jedi Knights and the armies of the Galactic Republic."
That was not Ragnos' time. [/B]
You need to expand your thinking. The comics are not the only place to find info on that time.
Also, the comics don't state that it isn't Ragnos while the mutiple Essential Guides state that it is.
Note that the Sith were driven to extinction by the Republic during the Great Hyperspace War and that there is no other time this message could have come from, as it was the only war that involved the Ancient Sith.
Originally posted by IKC
2) It was clearly stated that they were equal in lightsaber combat.DLOTS, Narrator: "Both Jedi are master swordsmen -- Neither can claim an advantage with the Lightsaber!"
Nowhere is any other mention of them being equal in any way.
Essential Guides state otherwise. Once again you demonstrate you ignorance. The comics aren't the only source.
Originally posted by IKC
3) It's never shown that Ulic learned Sith Magic. Indeed, he almost lost to Mandalore in single combat. Kun, however, spends his time increasing his own power rather than directing the armies of the Krath and Mandalore, as Ulic does. Kun is decidely more powerful than Qel-Droma at the end of the Sith War.
You have failed to PROVE it.
Exar already had been to Yavin by the time he fought Ulic, so Exar already new Sith Magic.
Prove that Exar wouldn't have almost lost to Mandalore. And, you're the one with the comics. "
The two entered into a personal duel on Kuar. Mandalore dictated that the duel take place on the open plains of Harkul. Mandalore's weapon: the Basilisk war droid mount; Ulic's: his lightsaber. The contest: Qel-Droma must hold his ground high on the chain-nets over Harkul as Mandalore attacks. The prize: the allegiance of the combined armies of Teta and Mandalore. Ulic's Jedi training served him well. He bested Mandalore, and the defeated nomad conceded his loyalty. "
Ulic and Mandalore didn't actually fight.
Prove that Exar is spending his time increasing his own power and prove what he would have used to drastically increase his own power within ~ 6 months(time of duel, to death).
Note that the Sith were driven to extinction by the Republic during the Great Hyperspace War and that there is no other time this message could have come from, as it was the only war that involved the Ancient Sith.
Hey Glentract, guess what?
Ragnos was dead by the time the war even started! Ergo, the reigning Dark Lord who created the message could not have been Ragnos, period!
Essential Guides state otherwise. Once again you demonstrate you ignorance. The comics aren't the only source.
The comics are the superior source, Glentract, as they are the actual story. Essential Guides are worthless if they contradict the primary source.
Exar already had been to Yavin by the time he fought Ulic, so Exar already new Sith Magic.
...Yes, and? Ulic is never shown to use Sith magic. It's possible that he never even learned it. He certainly hadn't learned it at the time of their duel, as he was busy shacking up with Aleema. Exar didn't fight Qel-Droma with magic.
Prove that Exar wouldn't have almost lost to Mandalore. And, you're the one with the comics.
Step one: Cast freeze spell.
Step two: Laugh as Mandalore's war mount crashes to the ground.
Step three: Profit.
The two entered into a personal duel on Kuar. Mandalore dictated that the duel take place on the open plains of Harkul. Mandalore's weapon: the Basilisk war droid mount; Ulic's: his lightsaber. The contest: Qel-Droma must hold his ground high on the chain-nets over Harkul as Mandalore attacks. The prize: the allegiance of the combined armies of Teta and Mandalore. Ulic's Jedi training served him well. He bested Mandalore, and the defeated nomad conceded his loyalty.
That quotation is plays hard and loose with what actually happened. Mandalore and Ulic do fight hand-to-hand after Ulic destroys the war-droid and Mandalore lands on a chain net. Mandalore then takes a steel blade and has Ulic do the same. They fight, and, in the words of the vaunted narrator, "The outcome-- like the combatants-- hangs in the air!"
Prove that Exar is spending his time increasing his own power and prove what he would have used to drastically increase his own power within ~ 6 months(time of duel, to death).
Exactly what else would Exar have been doing? It was Ulic overseeing the Krath and military portion of the war. In the beginning narration, it reads, "Through his dabbling in forbidden teachings, Exar Kun has fallen completely under the spell of the ancient Sith ways, and he knows he must gain additional disciples to fan the flames of his planned victory."
This is after it reads that six months have passed. Obviously, Exar Kun has spent that time learning to make himself more powerful.
Originally posted by IKC
Hey Glentract, guess what?[B]Ragnos was dead by the time the war even started!
Ergo, the reigning Dark Lord who created the message could not have been Ragnos, period! [/B]
And it's not possible that Ragnos had a vision? That it's not possible that 1,000 years is not an exact statement? That it may be off by a few years?
Also note that if it isn't Ragnos, then it was someone weaker than him, weakening your case further.
Originally posted by IKC
The comics are the superior source, Glentract, as they are the actual story. Essential Guides are worthless if they contradict the primary source.
I have stated MUTIPLE sources. They outweigh your single source.
Originally posted by IKC
...Yes, and? Ulic is never shown to use Sith magic. It's possible that he never even learned it. He certainly hadn't learned it at the time of their duel, as he was busy shacking up with Aleema. Exar didn't fight Qel-Droma with magic.
Doesn't make Kun more powerful.
Originally posted by IKC
Step one: Cast freeze spell.Step two: Laugh as Mandalore's war mount crashes to the ground.
Step three: Profit.
And how would that get the Mandalorians to join them?
Originally posted by IKC
That quotation is plays hard and loose with what actually happened. Mandalore and Ulic do fight hand-to-hand after Ulic destroys the war-droid and Mandalore lands on a chain net. Mandalore then takes a steel blade and has Ulic do the same. They fight, and, in the words of the vaunted narrator, "The outcome-- like the combatants-- hangs in the air!"
Doesn't make Exar more powerful.
Originally posted by IKC
Exactly what else would Exar have been doing? It was Ulic overseeing the Krath and military portion of the war. In the beginning narration, it reads, "Through his dabbling in forbidden teachings, Exar Kun has fallen completely under the spell of the ancient Sith ways, and he knows he must gain additional disciples to fan the flames of his planned victory."
Doing what it says, recruiting additional Sith.
Originally posted by IKC
This is after it reads that six months have passed. Obviously, Exar Kun has spent that time learning to make himself more powerful.
No, Exar was recruiting additional Sith.
lol...
And it's not possible that Ragnos had a vision? That it's not possible that 1,000 years is not an exact statement? That it may be off by a few years?
If Ragnos had had that vision, Glentract, he would've offed Naga Sadow before he had even started the war. The narrator specifically states that the message came from the time that the Republic and Jedi were hunting the Sith to extinction. Ragnos is not the spirit that spoke to Kun and Qel-Droma.
Also note that if it isn't Ragnos, then it was someone weaker than him, weakening your case further.
Uh, how exactly?
I have stated MUTIPLE sources. They outweigh your single source.
I can have multiple sources that state that excrement smells like fresh wildflowers. That doesn't make the statement correct. You're trumped.
Doesn't make Kun more powerful.
Yes it does, Glentract. Someone who knows Sith magic and is spending his time honing his force skills is going to be a hell of a lot better at the Force than someone who's managing a military operation and shacking up with a Krath sorceress.
And how would that get the Mandalorians to join them?
The question was "Prove that Exar wouldn't almost have lost to Mandalore."
Please, try to remember your own statements.
Doing what it says, recruiting additional Sith.
Wrong, that's not what it reads. It reads that he knows he needs to gain more recruits, not that he already has them or has spent his time getting them.
Indeed, the opposite is true. Kun acquires these new disciples within the comic, not before, from Ossus.
No, Exar was recruiting additional Sith.
I just proved you wrong. Again. Aren't you tired of being wrong?
IKC makes a lot of good points. He makes the more convincing argument. And, personally, just because one likes a specific character does not mean one is incapable of logic. Sorgo was the biggest Dooku fanboy, and from time to time, he made outstanding points.
Don't dismiss someone because of a preference. I'm biased to Yoda, Dooku, and Sidious, and yet I don't consider myself a poor debator.
IKC the comics say unkown sith lord right? well guess what it isnt uncommon for someone to make the unkown spirit known and tie-in other story lines like Ragnos's. and your argument about ragnos not being from that time period i'm fairly sure they're referring to the ancient sith around the times of the great hyperspace war. give or take 100 years(because if they don't state exact years then it's pretty much a generalization). And if starwars.com says its ragnos then wouldn't it techinically be canon?
Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
IKC the comics say unkown sith lord right? well guess what it isnt uncommon for someone to make the unkown spirit known and tie-in other story lines like Ragnos's. and your argument about ragnos not being from that time period i'm fairly sure they're referring to the ancient sith around the times of the great hyperspace war. give or take 100 years(because if they don't state exact years then it's pretty much a generalization). And if starwars.com says its ragnos then wouldn't it techinically be canon?
There is no contradiction. The Essential Guide in this case can be used officially. And Glentract is right, the Essential Guide is actually a high level of officiality than the comics, strangely enough.
He looks like Ragnos, he's said to be Ragnos in the Essential Guide, the fact he remains "nameless" does nothing to contradict this in anyway.
Step one: Cast freeze spell.Step two: Laugh as Mandalore's war mount crashes to the ground.
Step three: Profit.
I guess Kreia is unbeatable. She can go about instakilling anyone she damn wants.
Kun performed the ability once. You have no idea what goes into the action of freezing an individual. Throwing one possible alternative is ASS-U-Me'ing.
Well, I'll insert my two cents:
Marka Ragnos is powerful, but he is an unknown. No one knows what he can do, precisely. To my knowledge, he has no known instakill ability, nor can he manipulate blackholes. You are judging his level of power based on the fear of his peers. Indeed, but several of you have argued Dooku was superior to Sidious, but the Count still feared his master. Thus, it is plausible that Dooku is very much the inferior Force-user. Or is it?
Simply put, he had to be powerful to kill Simus. But it may be very possible for DE Sidious or Kreia to kill Ragnos, as he does not have any known defense against their instakills, nor does he have any known one of his own.
Thus, consider it.
Originally posted by Escape81
Well, I'll insert my two cents:
Its about time. You usually make some excellent points.
Originally posted by Escape81
Marka Ragnos is powerful, but he is an unknown. No one knows what he can do, precisely. To my knowledge, he has no known instakill ability, nor can he manipulate blackholes. You are judging his level of power based on the fear of his peers. Indeed, but several of you have argued Dooku was superior to Sidious, but the Count still feared his master. Thus, it is plausible that Dooku is very much the inferior Force-user. Or is it?
Dooku had reason to not kill Sidious though. No Sidious, no Jedi Purge, no control of the Senate to continue the war, ect.
There have been no presented reasons similar to that for Ragnos being feared by his servants, and when added with Sith traditions, it is unreasonable to assume a similar situation, but a good point nonetheless.
Originally posted by Escape81
Simply put, he had to be powerful to kill Simus. But it may be very possible for DE Sidious or Kreia to kill Ragnos, as he does not have any known defense against their instakills, nor does he have any known one of his own.Thus, consider it.
As I've explained before, who ever made Malacor V must have lived among people who could defend against it, otherwise that person would have killed every person who attacked him without end and therefor would have been DLOS permanetly. That person would also have conquered the Jedi, because they would have no way to defend against it. Also, unless there was some major war or something that purged all knowledge of this technique from Malacor V, it is unreasonable to assume that the Sith would have forgotten it. Also note that Jedi such as Jacen Solo could also have fought off Nihilus and Kreia because he could completely remove himself from the force.