TPM Jinn + RotS Dooku + RotS Kenobi vs. RotS Sidious

This was the implication in AotC-- Dooku would've had Jinn's help against Darth Sidious. Given the esteem that Kenobi had for his old master, it is very likely that he would have been willing to side with Qui Gon over the council, if need be, to counter this thread. I see Mace and Yoda ignoring the possibility that the Chancellor is actually the Sith, and Kenobi and Jinn breaking with them in order to rectify the situation (with Dooku's help/betrayal of Sidious).

Because Anakin is a huge unknown here (what with the relationship between him and Jinn so vague in this scenario) we will leave him at home. Naturally, Kenobi will be drawn from the canon timeline rather than this hypothetical one. He maintains his form III mastery (even though he never had the incentive to change) and all of his experience fighting during the Clone Wars.

The timeline being so convoluted, we will posit that Dooku manages to make planetfall on Coruscant and join the Jedi on their way to the Senate chamber. The three burst into Palpatine's office just as Mace did, but armed with all of the knowledge that Dooku had about Sidious.

Can the trio, buoyed by Dooku and Jinn's Force mastery and Kenobi's nigh-impenetrable defense overcome the un-athletic, out-of-practice Sith Lord?

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There are no restrictions about tactics, and thus no nonsense about categories.

Can they win at all?

hard one

I'm inclined to say that sidious is not as godly as to actually win this one

kenobi'd already put up a decent fight against him, and dooku is not to be underestimated

but I wouldn't call sidious un-athletic seeing the way he can jump

with dooku equal to mace, who beat sidious, and kenobi, who probably would get owned through the force... but then maybe not, since Sidious didn't have time to attack anyone through the force when attacked with multiple opponents before...

I'll say team 6/10. If Dooku==Mace, and Kenobi is a better duelist than any of the B team. I'm inclined to say QGJ is also a better duelist than the B team.(except possibly Fisto) Basically i don't see any blitz deaths, and then Sidious just has too many blades to worry about.

Dooku has no Shatterpoint though...

Doesn't matter. In strictly sabers, we have the master of saber-to-saber, the master of defense, and one of the best of the TPM era. Sabers alone, Sidious goes down. Not easily though.

Force, though... Iunno. I'm tempted to say Sidious. Dooku masturbated nightly to Sidious' power, and Kenobi and Jinn can by no means hold themselves to Dooku's standards. Sidious, definitely.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Dooku masturbated nightly to Sidious' power,

What are Jinn's EU feats because, quite frankly, his showing in TPM was dire. It was said that it was because his sabre style wasn't good for area with restricted movement and he'd be in the same situation here therfor he'd go down as quick as any of the other 3 did in the canon fight.

Yoda already stated that Obi Wan would be no match for the Emperor so I reckon he'd also go down quickly.

Lastly there's a reason that Palpatine was the master and Dooku the Apprentice.

So...Sidious wins.

Hmph

Originally posted by jaden101
What are Jinn's EU feats because, quite frankly, his showing in TPM was dire. It was said that it was because his sabre style wasn't good for area with restricted movement and he'd be in the same situation here therfor he'd go down as quick as any of the other 3 did in the canon fight.

Yoda already stated that Obi Wan would be no match for the Emperor so I reckon he'd also go down quickly.

Lastly there's a reason that Palpatine was the master and Dooku the Apprentice.

So...Sidious wins.

He doesn't have that many feats because not much material covers him. Though he and Mace in combat always stalemated.

Yeah all out.

Because Palpatine had to be more powerful, it's canon he's the most powerful DLOTS.

Oh and yeah if they were on their own one after another. All together attacking him at once, I don't think Sidious will win that.

Originally posted by mattatom
Hmph If they went one at a time.

He doesn't have that many feats because not much material covers him. Though he and Mace in combat always stalemated.

Yeah all out.

Because Palpatine had to be more powerful, it's canon he's the most powerful DLOTS.

Oh and yeah if they were on their own one after another. All together attacking him at once, I don't think Sidious will win that.

But you can use that argument for anyone. If any 3 Jedi attacked at the same time then Sidious would fall because his blade can't physically be in 3 defensive points to stop 3 blades from 3 different directions simultaneously.

I think if they attacked as the team in the film did they would be defeated. Jinn's and Dooku's style's needed larger range for movement and so would be restricted by both the room they are fighting in and the each other while attacking Sidious.

Kenobi evaded 18 'blades' a second from Grievous. That idea of yours is flawed.I think his office is large enough to do a few acrobatics in the ceiling wasn't exactly low and they can attack different sides of him.

Well ROTS Jin got saber raped by Sidious and Sidious easily killed Fisto and Kolar so i'd go for Sidious

Originally posted by mattatom
Kenobi evaded 18 'blades' a second from Grievous. That idea of yours is flawed.I think his office is large enough to do a few acrobatics in the ceiling wasn't exactly low and they can attack different sides of him.

They moved into the office. The initial room is quite small (the one in which the 3 jedi die). Presumably that's where the fight begins. I don't think it would get into the main area where he fought Windu. I think they would all die in the small room.

Kenobi's "evading" of the fast spinning blade's consisted of him not being in range of them. Regardless...A second isn't simultaneously. But thanks for arguing my point. If Kenobi can avoid that much then it should be a piece of cake for someone vastly more powerful and more capable than him.

Would be better to see than the fight they did have in the film though...Except for Windu obviously...BMF that he is.

Master of Defense Kenobi in a small space... I don't think he'd die that quickly. Maybe Jinn, but not Kenobi, Dooku, maybee.
I was quoting the Novel rather than the Movie and no, but that's still around 4 strikes a second from each blade... More than Sidious could do to Kenobi with two others attacking him i'd wager.
I'd agree it'd be a better fight to see.

Originally posted by jaden101
... Kenobi's "evading" of the fast spinning blade's consisted of him not being in range of them.

Your source/quote please?

My understanding is that Kenobi was deflecting the attack from GG. It wasn't until GG increased his attack to 20 strikes per second that Kenobi's defense was finally overwhelmed.

Kenobi is quite possibly the greatest defensive swordsman in the entire SW universe.

Originally posted by mattatom
Master of Defense Kenobi in a small space... I don't think he'd die that quickly. Maybe Jinn, but not Kenobi, Dooku, maybee.
I was quoting the Novel rather than the Movie and no, but that's still around 4 strikes a second from each blade... More than Sidious could do to Kenobi with two others attacking him i'd wager.
I'd agree it'd be a better fight to see.

Kenobi would definitely be more cagey but he didn't exactly fare too well against Dooku. It's odd though. In terms of what you see in the movies he's one of the most impressive fighters...Beat a Sith while he was still a Padawan...Defeated Greivous...Held his own against Jango who was extremely heavily armed after he'd lost his sabre. Toys with Ventress even when he has no lightsabre. Defeated Durge.

Sometimes difficult to gauge how he'll do given the inconsistency.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Your source/quote please?

My understanding is that Kenobi was deflecting the attack from GG. It wasn't until GG increased his attack to 20 strikes per second that Kenobi's defense was finally overwhelmed.

Kenobi is quite possibly the greatest defensive swordsman in the entire SW universe.

My source?...That'd be the opening part of the fight between them. The only part which approaches 18 strikes a second is the bit when Greivous' top 2 "hands" are spinning....Kenobi stays out of range and then sticks his sabre in the middle of them to stop them spinning once he sees the opening. The films being the highest form of canon source i'd say that's good enough.

Originally posted by jaden101
Kenobi would definitely be more cagey but he didn't exactly fare too well against Dooku. It's odd though. In terms of what you see in the movies he's one of the most impressive fighters...Beat a Sith while he was still a Padawan...Defeated Greivous...Held his own against Jango who was extremely heavily armed after he'd lost his sabre. Toys with Ventress even when he has no lightsabre. Defeated Durge.

Sometimes difficult to gauge how he'll do given the inconsistency.

Inconsitency is one of the most aggravating part of the mythos. Take the Onesith/Truesith/Original Sith as an example. Irritates the hell outta me. Ahh but Dooku had to use the Force on him to take him out the fight.

Originally posted by mattatom
With two other people attacking Sids I doubt he'll have enough time.

Inconsitency is one of the most aggravating part of the mythos. Take the Onesith/Truesith/Original Sith as an example. Irritates the hell outta me. Ahh but Dooku had to use the Force on him to take him out the fight.

The idiocy of the canon of the EU is one of the reasons I haven't really gone beyond the Thrawn trilogy. I also hate how new material is sanctioned even though most of it just feels shoe-horned in especially when it is supposed to fit between two previously official canon stories.

As for Dooku using the force...Yes...True...But all this talk of

1: sabres
2: force
3: all out

just annoys me because it's complete bullshit given that lightsabre training is done with utilising the force anyway...Using the force while dueling is innate. They aren't seperable. No Jedi or Sith would try and fight without using the force both as offensive and defensive during a duel anyway. For example you said that the room was big enough to use acrobatics in the fight...Those acrobatics are force assisted. There's no way Sidious would've been able to pull off that crazy spinning leap across the room without it. There's no way Obi Wan would've managed to jump over the top of Maul and get Jinn's sabre and cut Maul in half without it. So the hypothetical "sabre's only" idea is just pointless. You would end up with just 2 average blokes who would probably end up cutting their own arms off if they weren't using the force.

Dooku, Qui and Obi take this one, especially in Sabers.

Fine, let me be specific. I meant no Force assisted moves such as TK which Dooku used on Kenobi. Force Aided Acrobatics and Precognition AKA saber dueling are used in the 'Sabers' section of a three tier versus.

Originally posted by mattatom
Fine, let me be specific. I meant no Force assisted moves such as TK which Dooku used on Kenobi. Force Aided Acrobatics and Precognition AKA saber dueling are used in the 'Sabers' section of a three tier versus.

My point is that 3 tier vs are stupid given that 2 bits of it are essentially gimping. If one character relies more of sabre ability than power in the force and you say "force only" then you're taking away a huge part of that person's ability. Same vice versa. So why bother?

Sidious is a case in point. He'd be relatively rusty in sabre skills because he hardly ever uses his. So if you take away his overwhelming force ability then you'd have a relatively weak character. Still enough to wipe the floor with 3 poweful Jedi though. The fact is that his force power would completely wipe the floor with Dooku, Kenobi and Jinn.

I'm not going to script a fight though as you can do it either way. I will say that I never did understand why Sidious didn't just force lightning all 4 of the Jedi the instant they walked through the door. He quite obviously knew they were coming. It can be argued that it was because he was using it as a chance to turn Anakin (hence the telepathic comminication before the fight). In this scenario he doesn't have the same issue so why wouldn't he just unleash total destruction on the 3 Jedi in this case?